Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 747314 times)

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1759
  • Thanked: 322 times
    • ERIC ULIS: From the History Channel
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3585 on: October 22, 2020, 05:16:41 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
After all, how does the agent verify what was missing or not missing a year and a half after the flight? What documents did he review to determine what was replaced in Seattle after N467US arrived back on the 25th?.

Every mechanical 'incident' - every repair, replacement, or alteration, would be in the airplane's log books.

There's one minor problem though...

...in the 1975 doc the FBI stated that "no part that large was missing from the 727 involved in the Norjak hijacking."

Well, in fact there were two parts that large missing...this is plainly visible on the news footage and is actually referred to by Bill Kurtis in Reno...the missing fiberglass panels.

The FBI has simply lost credibility concerning many aspects of this case. A lot of the reports were sloppy and obviously written by someone who didn't completely understand what the hell they were writing about.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline dudeman17

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 325
  • Thanked: 100 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3586 on: October 22, 2020, 05:28:58 PM »
But where did the 'no part' info come from? (Not the document, but the info therein). Was it their (possibly mistaken) observation after it landed in Reno? I would think that the log books would be the definitive answer, but hard to say where they would have ended up.

If you go to dropzone and search the incidents thread, sometimes the pilots in there refer to a web page where you enter the N number of an aircraft and it tells you the history of it. Not sure if it would have detailed log book info, but it would certainly have incident and ownership records. The last owner would be a place to inquire about the logs.

Edit: A quick google search of 'N467US' shows that it's last owner was Key Airlines, where it was registered as N29KA.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 05:52:41 PM by dudeman17 »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3587 on: October 22, 2020, 06:11:39 PM »
The FAA has no records for mechanical work or updates on planes. imagine the size..the only place it might be found would be the Northwest airlines historical archive..other than the skirting on the stairs no other damage was reported. the last pictures of 305 are on our website..

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1711
  • Thanked: 196 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3588 on: October 22, 2020, 06:44:27 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
After all, how does the agent verify what was missing or not missing a year and a half after the flight? What documents did he review to determine what was replaced in Seattle after N467US arrived back on the 25th?.

Every mechanical 'incident' - every repair, replacement, or alteration, would be in the airplane's log books.


Correct, but where would the documents be from a plane that was scrapped in the 90's?

That I couldn't tell you. Possibly Northwest's archives? Was that plane ever sold to someone else? If the FBI was thorough they would have copies.

R99?

According to some online information, the airliner was delivered to Northwest Airlines in April 1965, delivered to Piedmont Airlines in June 1978, delivered to United Technologies (used for testing navigational instruments) in December 1982, delivered to Key Airlines in September 1984, registered to World Corp Leasing in December 1989, strd GWO in February 1993 (I don't know what that means), and broken up by 1996.

It is unlikely that any meaningful records of this aircraft exist at this point in time.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3589 on: October 22, 2020, 09:50:49 PM »
FJ, the transcripts clearly show the stair light on at 7:42. it will only come on once the stairs have been released. 7:45 they confirm again the light is on and someone should look in the cabin to see if he left..this is close to McChord..that would be around 19 miles DME from Seattle..
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 09:53:16 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3590 on: October 22, 2020, 09:55:31 PM »
Basically at Toledo crossing V23 would be like a S turn and could of affected the wind in the back, I don't know?
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3591 on: October 23, 2020, 01:03:29 AM »
The hardest part with the 302's is the sub files. that means more documents. I don't know why they do that but more documents should surface on documents that have sub files written or typed. approval is required to start a sub file.

Major cases prior to 1991 had up to 56 file numbers for the same subject and caused unnecessary duplicates,,

They changed the numbering system in 1991 to stop the overkill of copies we see in the 302's..
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 01:11:09 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3592 on: October 23, 2020, 09:57:52 AM »
Quote
The airstair light comes on when the lever is moved from the detent position, not when the stairs actually move..

Correct, that's how they knew early in the flight. as soon as the lever is pulled they drop but only a couple feet. many believe that confused him since he thought they would go all the way down.

Notice the material from the side panels all over the steps. photo below is from FJ.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 10:04:08 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3593 on: October 23, 2020, 11:17:21 AM »
Quote
I noticed the interior ceiling panel is hanging down in this image.

That might have been a result of the plane search but  ??

Correct, they probably pulled that panel down. it would of been listed in the 302's that it was hanging down from the ceiling. not enough wind in the stairs and the testing would of had the same problem.

Keep in mind that the lever system was different in some aircraft. not all had the push button. the light came on early and is proof the stairs dropped. they will not drop very far. two times are entered in the transcripts with the lite on. he complained of trouble with the stairs then got the lite. that could suggest a button. no entries past 7:45 surrounding the stairs until 8:10, 11 and 12 depending on which document you read. 7:48 is where they begin to climb to 10,000. the reference to slowing the plane down was when he was having trouble with the stairs.the Harrison notes have a speed of 155 I believe.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 11:31:13 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1759
  • Thanked: 322 times
    • ERIC ULIS: From the History Channel
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3594 on: October 23, 2020, 02:19:24 PM »
I wonder if the metal item found in 1973 was part of a 727 tail skid. After all, if it was actually part of the airstairs assembly I do not understand how the FBI could ignore it. Just doesn't add up, especially considering that the Boeing guy said he thought it broke free in flight.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3595 on: October 23, 2020, 03:26:02 PM »
I don't think it's from the tailskid. he appears to go into detail about the part causing the FBI to check. sounds like he knew what it was..the skid has to be built tough to handle the weight of the plane coming down on it.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3596 on: October 23, 2020, 04:33:56 PM »
Working on a drop test with the placard..I reproduced the original placard and traced out the tears in it..it's a first draft. I'm going to use one of my drones to drop them and see how they act. just a quick test shows the torn placard acting differently..
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1759
  • Thanked: 322 times
    • ERIC ULIS: From the History Channel
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3597 on: October 23, 2020, 05:04:04 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I don't think it's from the tailskid. he appears to go into detail about the part causing the FBI to check. sounds like he knew what it was..the skid has to be built tough to handle the weight of the plane coming down on it.

If this is from inside the airstairs compartment it has to be from 305. How can it not be?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3598 on: October 23, 2020, 05:14:16 PM »
Tailskid is in front of the stairs on the bottom. totally separate...why couldn't it... they checked.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 05:14:56 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3599 on: October 23, 2020, 05:24:00 PM »
I'm mean even this is becoming an issue...it states a piece was found and someone from Boeing contacted them giving technical information regarding the part. not the cockpit or wheel functions. he explained it was from a rear door assembly. they probably had all the information required and checked and found the piece was not missing. the damage was found to be minimal at the least. that's the skirting. you can bet mechanics looked the plane over prior to allowing it back into service. just because it's in the woods or on top of a house doesn't mean it was from 305.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 05:25:14 PM by Shutter »
 
The following users thanked this post: georger