Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 735620 times)

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3195 on: August 06, 2020, 02:30:37 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Norjak the Investigation of D B Cooper by Ralph P Himmelsbach  ........   D. B. Cooper: Dead or Alive? [Tosaw, Richard T.

Eric:   There is hardly one person doing the Cooper research who hasnt quoted from these two books at one time or another, including YOU, R99, Smith etal . . . ! In fact several people well known here have quoted from these books so many times it has become a ritual. These books are a major Cooper resource! People are going to use them and quote from them whether you like it or not! If your interviews of whomever begin to become the gold standard for Cooper research replacing the conventional repertoire, that will take time to establish. There is nothing you can do to change that.   

When Ammerman writes his own book and speaks for himself maybe HIS book will become standard repertoire. In the meantime people are free to believe whomever they want! Cooperland is not a dictatorship being managed by anyone, for some managed result they hope to obtain !

GEORGER, I'm quite certain you recognize the difference between people discussing comments from various authors, versus declaring someone "wrong" based exclusively upon the writings of an author from a book that is seriously flawed. It's completely intellectually bankrupt.

This is precisely how bad information gets injected into the investigation. Not to mention, who gives a damn what agents of smear and trolls from another site have to say about anything? Let them throw sand in their own sand box. Why bring it here?

Cooper forums have no formal rules of procedure! There is very little in Cooperland that has followed strict rules of procedure, even in FBI 302's.

It used to drive me nuts at Dropzone when people shifted topics all the time. One thread would get started then somebody would interject a brand new topic - it was chaos at times and impossible to get people to stay on a particular topic. Shutter's forum has done slightly better partly because Shutter set up categories of topics and people for the most part post within those boundaries.

In the case of Ammerman, Ammerman should write his own book! That might be helpful. Otherwise you will wind up with a smorgasbord of people claiming Ammerman said that vs this etc. But again Eric, this is an informal affair. IT TAKES TIME TO ESTABLISH LEGITIMACY! You know that. There isnt anything anyone can do about that. If you have been at this for the ten years you claim maybe you should have surfaced and established yourself ten years ago, so today you would be a recognised entity in the Cooper Vortex? People come to Cooperland with agendae. You know that! It takes time to separate one from the other... and trust has a lot to do with it!
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 02:39:08 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3196 on: August 06, 2020, 02:43:56 PM »
Eric - let me interject this.

I told Ammerman years ago he should write a book! Or at least a monograph people could refer to. He said the idea had crossed his mind several times but something always came up ... and life got busy. Then people began to call him .... and quote him. Thus here we sit today ...
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1759
  • Thanked: 322 times
    • ERIC ULIS: From the History Channel
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3197 on: August 06, 2020, 02:47:25 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Norjak the Investigation of D B Cooper by Ralph P Himmelsbach  ........   D. B. Cooper: Dead or Alive? [Tosaw, Richard T.

Eric:   There is hardly one person doing the Cooper research who hasnt quoted from these two books at one time or another, including YOU, R99, Smith etal . . . ! In fact several people well known here have quoted from these books so many times it has become a ritual. These books are a major Cooper resource! People are going to use them and quote from them whether you like it or not! If your interviews of whomever begin to become the gold standard for Cooper research replacing the conventional repertoire, that will take time to establish. There is nothing you can do to change that.   

When Ammerman writes his own book and speaks for himself maybe HIS book will become standard repertoire. In the meantime people are free to believe whomever they want! Cooperland is not a dictatorship being managed by anyone, for some managed result they hope to obtain !

GEORGER, I'm quite certain you recognize the difference between people discussing comments from various authors, versus declaring someone "wrong" based exclusively upon the writings of an author from a book that is seriously flawed. It's completely intellectually bankrupt.

This is precisely how bad information gets injected into the investigation. Not to mention, who gives a damn what agents of smear and trolls from another site have to say about anything? Let them throw sand in their own sand box. Why bring it here?

Cooper forums have no formal rules of procedure! There is very little in Cooperland that has followed strict rules of procedure, even in FBI 302's.

It used to drive me nuts at Dropzone when people shifted topics all the time. One thread would get started then somebody would interject a brand new topic - it was chaos at times and impossible to get people to stay on a particular topic. Shutter's forum has done slightly better partly because Shutter set up categories of topics and people for the most part post within those boundaries.

In the case of Ammerman, Ammerman should write his own book! That might be helpful. Otherwise you will wind up with a smorgasbord of people claiming Ammerman said that vs this etc. But again Eric, this is an informal affair. IT TAKES TIME TO ESTABLISH LEGITIMACY! You know that. There isnt anything anyone can do about that. If you have been at this for the ten years you claim maybe you should have surfaced and established yourself ten years ago, so today you would be a recognised entity in the Cooper Vortex? People come to Cooperland with agendae. You know that! It takes time to separate one from the other...

We did get Ammerman on film discussing some of these matters that will be part of the History Channel show when it airs which is now slated for the 4th quarter of this year.

I have seen the finished product and can say that a lot of the footage regarding his comments hit the cutting room floor. Nonetheless, he stated that the T-33 took off to the west from PDX, headed north over Sauvie Island, then was turned to the east and ultimately south in behind 305 close to the northern part of Sauvie Island (To be clear, the T-33 started its turn from over Sauvie Island).

Once behind 305--by the way, there was no visual contact--he recalls putting the T-33 on one heading alone as it trailed 305 south toward Eugene. Once they arrived at Eugene the T-33 and the F-106's were turned back around and headed home to their respective homes up north.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3198 on: August 06, 2020, 02:56:02 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Norjak the Investigation of D B Cooper by Ralph P Himmelsbach  ........   D. B. Cooper: Dead or Alive? [Tosaw, Richard T.

Eric:   There is hardly one person doing the Cooper research who hasnt quoted from these two books at one time or another, including YOU, R99, Smith etal . . . ! In fact several people well known here have quoted from these books so many times it has become a ritual. These books are a major Cooper resource! People are going to use them and quote from them whether you like it or not! If your interviews of whomever begin to become the gold standard for Cooper research replacing the conventional repertoire, that will take time to establish. There is nothing you can do to change that.   

When Ammerman writes his own book and speaks for himself maybe HIS book will become standard repertoire. In the meantime people are free to believe whomever they want! Cooperland is not a dictatorship being managed by anyone, for some managed result they hope to obtain !

GEORGER, I'm quite certain you recognize the difference between people discussing comments from various authors, versus declaring someone "wrong" based exclusively upon the writings of an author from a book that is seriously flawed. It's completely intellectually bankrupt.

This is precisely how bad information gets injected into the investigation. Not to mention, who gives a damn what agents of smear and trolls from another site have to say about anything? Let them throw sand in their own sand box. Why bring it here?

Cooper forums have no formal rules of procedure! There is very little in Cooperland that has followed strict rules of procedure, even in FBI 302's.

It used to drive me nuts at Dropzone when people shifted topics all the time. One thread would get started then somebody would interject a brand new topic - it was chaos at times and impossible to get people to stay on a particular topic. Shutter's forum has done slightly better partly because Shutter set up categories of topics and people for the most part post within those boundaries.

In the case of Ammerman, Ammerman should write his own book! That might be helpful. Otherwise you will wind up with a smorgasbord of people claiming Ammerman said that vs this etc. But again Eric, this is an informal affair. IT TAKES TIME TO ESTABLISH LEGITIMACY! You know that. There isnt anything anyone can do about that. If you have been at this for the ten years you claim maybe you should have surfaced and established yourself ten years ago, so today you would be a recognised entity in the Cooper Vortex? People come to Cooperland with agendae. You know that! It takes time to separate one from the other...

We did get Ammerman on film discussing some of these matters that will be part of the History Channel show when it airs which is now slated for the 4th quarter of this year.

I have seen the finished product and can say that a lot of the footage regarding his comments hit the cutting room floor. Nonetheless, he stated that the T-33 took off to the west from PDX, headed north over Sauvie Island, then was turned to the east and ultimately south in behind 305 close to the northern part of Sauvie Island (To be clear, the T-33 started its turn from over Sauvie Island).

Once behind 305--by the way, there was no visual contact--he recalls putting the T-33 on one heading alone as it trailed 305 south toward Eugene. Once they arrived at Eugene the T-33 and the F-106's were turned back around and headed home to their respective homes up north.

Then play the damned film!!!  That is as good as a book etc ... !   If you have him on film then congrats. Lets hear it!

ps - having Ammmerman on film is fit stuff for a Cooper Con!  I dont think Gray even tried to interview Ammerman... much less had him on film.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 02:58:27 PM by georger »
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1759
  • Thanked: 322 times
    • ERIC ULIS: From the History Channel
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3199 on: August 06, 2020, 03:10:40 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Then play the damned film!!!  That is as good as a book etc ... !   If you have him on film then congrats. Lets hear it!

ps - having Ammmerman on film is fit stuff for a Cooper Con!  I dont think Gray even tried to interview Ammerman... much less had him on film.

Amazingly the FBI didn't even interview Ammerman.

I don't own the footage of Ammerman--this is owned by History Channel--but can certainly discuss the idea of his attending CooperCon and telling his story while at the same time filming his remarks. That said, we may be waiting for the 2021 version of CooperCon for this to happen depending upon the Covid situation.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3200 on: August 06, 2020, 03:39:49 PM »
Wouldn't Portland ground control handle the T-33 flight? I assume they would direct the flight around in and outgoing traffic. It would be the same for any direction it had taken off from. it's going to circle around to the target.
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1759
  • Thanked: 322 times
    • ERIC ULIS: From the History Channel
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3201 on: August 06, 2020, 03:53:13 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Wouldn't Portland ground control handle the T-33 flight? I assume they would direct the flight around in and outgoing traffic. It would be the same for any direction it had taken off from. it's going to circle around to the target.

I do not know at what time, or from whom, the T-33 was handed to Ammerman. Nonetheless, it was handed to Ammerman very quickly and it was he who directed it behind 305.

At the same time Ammerman was directing the T-33 in behind 305, he also directed the F-106's a handful of miles to the east of 305 so that they could do a constant series of fly-bys then turn-arounds because of the speed differential. It is for this reason that I have theorized that perhaps when the Air Force cobbled together the data that went into making what we commonly refer to as the "FBI Flight Path" map, that they erroneously were working with radar data from the F-106's to the east and not 305. This would also explain the erratic movements in the flight path.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3202 on: August 06, 2020, 03:56:56 PM »
Portland is going to direct the flight to pattern..I'm not sure any ground location would be relevant prior to engaging 305..ground handles up to 50 miles but could of handed off the Ammerman..
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1759
  • Thanked: 322 times
    • ERIC ULIS: From the History Channel
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3203 on: August 06, 2020, 04:00:39 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Portland is going to direct the flight to pattern..I'm not sure any ground location would be relevant prior to engaging 305..ground handles up to 50 miles but could of handed off the Ammerman..

I'm just conveying what Ammerman told me. Beyond that, I do not know.

Interestingly, the T-33 pulling in behind 305, the F-106's being moved to the east, Ammerman handing 305 off to the controller handling the lower air space, and DBC jumping, all occurred within minutes of each other.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3204 on: August 06, 2020, 04:03:51 PM »
It appears the story changes over time..Himms book tells a different story if this is correct..never read his book but do recall the quote.

Quote
The T-33 intercepted 305 at Lake Oswego then turned S
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3205 on: August 06, 2020, 04:05:00 PM »
Possibly both are correct..the plane has to circle around to intercept..
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1759
  • Thanked: 322 times
    • ERIC ULIS: From the History Channel
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3206 on: August 06, 2020, 04:08:25 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Possibly both are correct..the plane has to circle around to intercept..

Himms also stated that Cooper used "filthy" language which is simply not true. Moreover, neither he, nor any FBI agent, spoke with Ammerman. I did.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3207 on: August 06, 2020, 04:18:43 PM »
none the less. the plane has to circle and did takeoff going west so not sure any relevance can come of it..
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1711
  • Thanked: 196 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3208 on: August 06, 2020, 04:31:57 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Portland is going to direct the flight to pattern..I'm not sure any ground location would be relevant prior to engaging 305..ground handles up to 50 miles but could of handed off the Ammerman..

The airliner took off at SEATAC at 7:36 PM and was talking to controller SEA R2 at 737 PM.

At 8:13 PM, by which time the airliner was in the immediate Portland area and by which time Cooper had probably jumped, the airliner was switched to controller SEA R5.

At 8:33 PM, by which time the airliner was probably in the Canby Intersection area, the airliner was switched to controller SEA R6.

The above has previously been described in greater detail in posts on this site.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3209 on: August 06, 2020, 04:51:10 PM »
The above has nothing to do with the discussion..it surrounds the T-33 and Portland..