EU,

We do know that the placard was found southeast of Toutle and east of Headquarters. This is basically along the presumed FBI flight path. I will concede that the placard indicates a flight path that is two or three miles west from the exact center of V 23, but it is certainly within the route’s 8 mile width. It’s not far enough west to place it over Tena Bar several minutes later.

More to the point, to have the FBI flight path be off to the west by 10 to 15 miles would require us to ignore that this was the height of the Cold War, and that the Western Air Defense Sector based at McChord (other than Alaska) was THE eyes and ears of the American military and was on constant look out for unusual air traffic - Soviet nuke bombers first among them. They had the most sophisticated radar in the world at the time. Once those F-106s took pursuit, the military knew EXACTLY where they were and the feds knew EXACTLY where that plane was from the moment it took off from Seattle to the moment it touched down in Reno. Normal planes did just fly around willy nilly with a “general idea” of where they were, and they weren’t just guessing where this special plane was either. The FBI files indicate clearly that they used this military radar data to construct the flight path. The FBI files also list specific towns where the plane pinged radar, and this is exactly along the presumed flight path. Furthermore, the DMEs coincide with the presumed flight path.

The technical and physical data along with historical knowledge and common sense overwhelmly support the FBIs flight path regardless of any anecdotal data given after the fact.

That said, a western flight path is the second most logical conclusion to draw based on the Tena Bar money find. It is far more logical than a DZ to the east and then the money magically appearing in the sand at the river’s edge 15 miles west.

This is an area where we have to be very careful about what we actually know versus what we think we know.

Specifically, the Air Force was the organization that put together the "FBI Flight Path" a couple of days after the skyjacking. We do not know how it was put together or by whom. That said, an FBI agent references SAGE in the files, however we cannot be certain SAGE was actually used, and even if it was working properly that evening--SAGE had many issues and according to a source via 377 SAGE was NOT working that night as it relates to communication with the F-106s.

Also, the Western Flight Path is only about seven miles west of the FBI Flight Path near the Woodland/Ridgefield area. Moreover, I have discussed this at length with Cliff Ammerman--which will be part of the History Channel show this winter--and there is nothing that can point to a precise location of 305.

Concerning the placard, the mathematical analysis completed indicates a drift of approximately seven miles as I recall. This is very significant. Additionally, factoring in the location of the fiberglass skirt found near Cinnebar, WA this also indicates the FBI Flight Path is off at that point too--albeit to the west.

My version of the Western Flight Path differs slightly from R99's, nonetheless it's quite close. More to the point, I believe 305 took off and continued south to about Eatonville. At this point I believe 305 turned to the southwest and flew directly to the Maylay intersection--not around Toledo as is typically shown--and turned almost due south toward Canby at that point.

This brings the airliner over Woodland and the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge during the 8:12 minute. It is in this area that DBC would have jumped and therefore landed. Walking south from this point--using the railroad tracks and Lower River Road--Cooper would end up at Tena Bar.

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EU,

We do know that the placard was found southeast of Toutle and east of Headquarters. This is basically along the presumed FBI flight path. I will concede that the placard indicates a flight path that is two or three miles west from the exact center of V 23, but it is certainly within the route’s 8 mile width. It’s not far enough west to place it over Tena Bar several minutes later.

More to the point, to have the FBI flight path be off to the west by 10 to 15 miles would require us to ignore that this was the height of the Cold War, and that the Western Air Defense Sector based at McChord (other than Alaska) was THE eyes and ears of the American military and was on constant look out for unusual air traffic - Soviet nuke bombers first among them. They had the most sophisticated radar in the world at the time. Once those F-106s took pursuit, the military knew EXACTLY where they were and the feds knew EXACTLY where that plane was from the moment it took off from Seattle to the moment it touched down in Reno. Normal planes did just fly around willy nilly with a “general idea” of where they were, and they weren’t just guessing where this special plane was either. The FBI files indicate clearly that they used this military radar data to construct the flight path. The FBI files also list specific towns where the plane pinged radar, and this is exactly along the presumed flight path. Furthermore, the DMEs coincide with the presumed flight path.

The technical and physical data along with historical knowledge and common sense overwhelmly support the FBIs flight path regardless of any anecdotal data given after the fact.

That said, a western flight path is the second most logical conclusion to draw based on the Tena Bar money find. It is far more logical than a DZ to the east and then the money magically appearing in the sand at the river’s edge 15 miles west.

This is an area where we have to be very careful about what we actually know versus what we think we know.

Specifically, the Air Force was the organization that put together the "FBI Flight Path" a couple of days after the skyjacking. We do not know how it was put together or by whom. That said, an FBI agent references SAGE in the files, however we cannot be certain SAGE was actually used, and even if it was working properly that evening--SAGE had many issues and according to a source via 377 SAGE was NOT working that night as it relates to communication with the F-106s.

Also, the Western Flight Path is only about seven miles west of the FBI Flight Path near the Woodland/Ridgefield area. Moreover, I have discussed this at length with Cliff Ammerman--which will be part of the History Channel show this winter--and there is nothing that can point to a precise location of 305.

Concerning the placard, the mathematical analysis completed indicates a drift of approximately seven miles as I recall. This is very significant. Additionally, factoring in the location of the fiberglass skirt found near Cinnebar, WA this also indicates the FBI Flight Path is off at that point too--albeit to the west.

My version of the Western Flight Path differs slightly from R99's, nonetheless it's quite close. More to the point, I believe 305 took off and continued south to about Eatonville. At this point I believe 305 turned to the southwest and flew directly to the Maylay intersection--not around Toledo as is typically shown--and turned almost due south toward Canby at that point.

This brings the airliner over Woodland and the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge during the 8:12 minute. It is in this area that DBC would have jumped and therefore landed. Walking south from this point--using the railroad tracks and Lower River Road--Cooper would end up at Tena Bar.

Yes, I will agree that the plane was likely slightly west (2 to 3 miles) of the accepted flight path. I don’t think the placard indicates a severe western path. Given the free fall time and the crosswind from the southwest, it still puts the plane within the V23. Also, there’s no way we can know how long the placard fell. It could have gotten caught in updrafts, etc. That goes for the other alleged debris from the plane as well.

The military radar and tracking is the Achilles heel of your argument, and it doesn’t surprise me that you would call the reliability of the equipment into question. Until real evidence is presented rather than anecdotal evidence that SAGE was not working that night, I’ll trust the FBI files that it was, and that it was used to reconstruct the flight path.

Lastly, my concern is less about the flight path and more about where Cooper jumped. Cooper could have jumped anywhere upstream from Tena Bar, so even if he jumped directly south of Vancouver Lake and my theory - that he ended up in the Columbia - would still stand.

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Scott's daughter?  We have been over that EU canard before!

Scott's wife was interviewed:  "Bill was convinced Cooper died in the leap", said Frances Scott. "He felt he jumped into Lake Merwin (Cowlitz County) and got tangled up in dead trees and died," she said. 

So, Scott's daughter and Scott's wife, and Scott .... all need to consult and agree on something! 

Family confusion is quite a phenomenon, eh, G. the Scott imbroglio reminds me of the Ingram Mishagasum on Tina Bar.

Yup, Capt. Billy said a lot of strange things about DBC. I wonder why. I strongly suspect that he was the kind of guy who would say things to make people think he agreed with them. A people pleaser, if you will. He strikes me as a man committed to not making waves, and as a company man, he certainly didn't want his airlines to be embroiled in on-going disputes. Bad for ticket sales, etc...

Remember, he didn't handle unexpected drama very well. He almost lost control of the aircraft when he learned his plane was being hijacked, as Rataczak relayed to me. R had to help Scotty pull it together.

But you missed the real story! R99 now admits there was light coming from Vancouver/Portland. Clouds and black holes and all. It has taken years. GO REPORT IT!
It;s a miracle.

Georger's comment above is an outright lie!  I have always stated that the flight crew could see the "glow" of the lights from the Vancouver/Portland area but that they could not see the actual lights.  A recent post here by Kermit states that Rataczak made the same statement to him.

well R99 here it is in your own words - your own prolific posts on this issue over the years, and there is even more:

[b]clouds below them that night were so thick that they could not see the light glow from the Portland and Vancouver areas." ..May 21, 2012  in reply to Snowmman[/b]

...Due to several cloud layers and an undercast, it is very unlikely that Cooper could have identified anything in the Lake Merwin area or that NWA 305 even passed close to that area. Bohan's flight path probably fits the Lake Merwin area better. December 21, 2010  DZ in reply to Quade.

...You apparently don't seem to understand that the weather in the Portland area at the time of the jump consisted of several cloud layers plus a complete overcast. Cooper could not see even the lights of Portland when he jumped. Regardless of the parachute's color, it would not be overly visible...June 5, 2011 in reply to Quade etal.


...The weather information published in some of the books indicates that there was a complete overcast (total cloud cover) plus several additional broken layers of cloud . This effectively eliminates the possibility of seeing anything on the ground even by looking straight down. Sailshaw is trying to ...July 1, 2011 DZ in reply to Sailshaw…

...The quote in Nuttall's book only addresses the fact that there was a dense cloud cover and overcast that prevented the airliner, flying at about 10,000 feet, from even seeing a "cloud glow" from those two cities. The ground conditions are meaningless in this case. However, the cloud layers , or...July 6, 2011  in reply to  Hominid

 ...all reliable weather sources indicate that there was an overcast at 5000 feet and three broken cloud layers below that. HOWEVER, I have stated that there was no storm in the Portland area and, basically, it was just routine Oregon/Washington weather that night.October 5, 2011


.there was a broken cloud layer at 3500 feet (which constituted the ceiling) and a complete overcast at 5000 feet. This puts Janet and Marla in the same category. I don't think the cloud layers would have stopped .. the sound, and what does that have to do with Marla? The cloud layers don't change...December 2, 2011.

...the airliner was above an overcast and several cloud layers when it passed through the Portland area. The people on the airliner could not see the ground. And vice-versa, the people on the ground could not see the airliner. The Janet story, and other such claims, are nonsense.February 6, 2012
...I have looked down at night time through clouds at quite a few areas of light glow, coming from various cities, over the last 50+ years. Nevertheless, the flight crew of the hijacked airliner said that the overcast and several layers of clouds below them that night were so thick that they could not see the light glow from the Portland and Vancouver areas." ...May 21, 2012  in reply to Snowmman

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EU,

We do know that the placard was found southeast of Toutle and east of Headquarters. This is basically along the presumed FBI flight path. I will concede that the placard indicates a flight path that is two or three miles west from the exact center of V 23, but it is certainly within the route’s 8 mile width. It’s not far enough west to place it over Tena Bar several minutes later.

More to the point, to have the FBI flight path be off to the west by 10 to 15 miles would require us to ignore that this was the height of the Cold War, and that the Western Air Defense Sector based at McChord (other than Alaska) was THE eyes and ears of the American military and was on constant look out for unusual air traffic - Soviet nuke bombers first among them. They had the most sophisticated radar in the world at the time. Once those F-106s took pursuit, the military knew EXACTLY where they were and the feds knew EXACTLY where that plane was from the moment it took off from Seattle to the moment it touched down in Reno. Normal planes did just fly around willy nilly with a “general idea” of where they were, and they weren’t just guessing where this special plane was either. The FBI files indicate clearly that they used this military radar data to construct the flight path. The FBI files also list specific towns where the plane pinged radar, and this is exactly along the presumed flight path. Furthermore, the DMEs coincide with the presumed flight path.

The technical and physical data along with historical knowledge and common sense overwhelmly support the FBIs flight path regardless of any anecdotal data given after the fact.

That said, a western flight path is the second most logical conclusion to draw based on the Tena Bar money find. It is far more logical than a DZ to the east and then the money magically appearing in the sand at the river’s edge 15 miles west.

This is an area where we have to be very careful about what we actually know versus what we think we know.

Specifically, the Air Force was the organization that put together the "FBI Flight Path" a couple of days after the skyjacking. We do not know how it was put together or by whom. That said, an FBI agent references SAGE in the files, however we cannot be certain SAGE was actually used, and even if it was working properly that evening--SAGE had many issues and according to a source via 377 SAGE was NOT working that night as it relates to communication with the F-106s.

Also, the Western Flight Path is only about seven miles west of the FBI Flight Path near the Woodland/Ridgefield area. Moreover, I have discussed this at length with Cliff Ammerman--which will be part of the History Channel show this winter--and there is nothing that can point to a precise location of 305.

Concerning the placard, the mathematical analysis completed indicates a drift of approximately seven miles as I recall. This is very significant. Additionally, factoring in the location of the fiberglass skirt found near Cinnebar, WA this also indicates the FBI Flight Path is off at that point too--albeit to the west.

My version of the Western Flight Path differs slightly from R99's, nonetheless it's quite close. More to the point, I believe 305 took off and continued south to about Eatonville. At this point I believe 305 turned to the southwest and flew directly to the Maylay intersection--not around Toledo as is typically shown--and turned almost due south toward Canby at that point.

This brings the airliner over Woodland and the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge during the 8:12 minute. It is in this area that DBC would have jumped and therefore landed. Walking south from this point--using the railroad tracks and Lower River Road--Cooper would end up at Tena Bar.

Yes, I will agree that the plane was likely slightly west (2 to 3 miles) of the accepted flight path. I don’t think the placard indicates a severe western path. Given the free fall time and the crosswind from the southwest, it still puts the plane within the V23. Also, there’s no way we can know how long the placard fell. It could have gotten caught in updrafts, etc. That goes for the other alleged debris from the plane as well.

The military radar and tracking is the Achilles heel of your argument, and it doesn’t surprise me that you would call the reliability of the equipment into question. Until real evidence is presented rather than anecdotal evidence that SAGE was not working that night, I’ll trust the FBI files that it was, and that it was used to reconstruct the flight path.

Lastly, my concern is less about the flight path and more about where Cooper jumped. Cooper could have jumped anywhere upstream from Tena Bar, so even if he jumped directly south of Vancouver Lake and my theory - that he ended up in the Columbia - would still stand.

Where and WHEN Cooper jumped  ......  is central. How long did the crew discuss the oscillation/pressure bump/etc  before Rataczak finally called it in? The plane is traveling south the whole time while the crew is debating. 1-3 minutes? Rataczak finally just picks up the mic and calls it in according to Anderson's interview. But now he has to reconstruct time. He uses 8:05 as his last known time of reference. He estimates the oscillations/pressure spike at '5-10 minutes after our last contact with him' at 8:05. Is Rataczak including the time the crew spent in discussion in his 5-10 minute timeline? We have no record of Rataczak's call to the company and what all parties said. All we have is that NWA Search Map some call the FBI Search Map, divided into zones of probability ... but if the timeline is wrong by 1-3 minutes the jump point moves south toward the Columbia Basin.

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EU,

We do know that the placard was found southeast of Toutle and east of Headquarters. This is basically along the presumed FBI flight path. I will concede that the placard indicates a flight path that is two or three miles west from the exact center of V 23, but it is certainly within the route’s 8 mile width. It’s not far enough west to place it over Tena Bar several minutes later.

More to the point, to have the FBI flight path be off to the west by 10 to 15 miles would require us to ignore that this was the height of the Cold War, and that the Western Air Defense Sector based at McChord (other than Alaska) was THE eyes and ears of the American military and was on constant look out for unusual air traffic - Soviet nuke bombers first among them. They had the most sophisticated radar in the world at the time. Once those F-106s took pursuit, the military knew EXACTLY where they were and the feds knew EXACTLY where that plane was from the moment it took off from Seattle to the moment it touched down in Reno. Normal planes did just fly around willy nilly with a “general idea” of where they were, and they weren’t just guessing where this special plane was either. The FBI files indicate clearly that they used this military radar data to construct the flight path. The FBI files also list specific towns where the plane pinged radar, and this is exactly along the presumed flight path. Furthermore, the DMEs coincide with the presumed flight path.

The technical and physical data along with historical knowledge and common sense overwhelmly support the FBIs flight path regardless of any anecdotal data given after the fact.

That said, a western flight path is the second most logical conclusion to draw based on the Tena Bar money find. It is far more logical than a DZ to the east and then the money magically appearing in the sand at the river’s edge 15 miles west.

Chaucer,

How about amplifying on your claims in the second paragraph above.  There are posters on this site who were involved in national defense activities in the 1971 time frame, and that includes me, who are mystified by your remarks.

Your third paragraph is simply not correct.

Mr. Blevins,
Can you point out specifically what is not accurate in my second paragraph?

Also, you said my third paragraph is incorrect, but have provided no evidence to the contrary. I’d appreciate hearing what you have to offer.

"Mr. Blevins"?  Hell's bells!  I think you have me confused with a poster on DropZone who is not permitted on this site.  Unless, of course, "Chaucer" is actually "RobertMBlevins".

In the second paragraph, your whole premise is wrong.  General aviation and military aircraft did not just fly around "willy nilly" with only a general idea of where they were.  Interceptor aircraft were parked on the ground and, when scrambled, they had special climb corridors which they used to get to their operational altitudes really fast.

SAGE was part of a weapons system and it was not involved with air traffic control functions.  The radar that was apparently used to construct the FBI map was located at McChord AFB and used by the FAA Air Traffic Control System.  The Seattle Air Traffic Control personnel were looking at displays that presented information from that radar and which had been processed through at least one computer program before they saw it.

The FBI personnel described the flight path by towns that the airliner passed close to and not by the airways and off-airways specific routes that it used.

"Furthermore, the DMEs coincide with the presumed flight path."  Specifically what DMEs are you talking about?

Your third paragraph is simply not true.  The reasons have already been explained at length here.

You need to visit Tina Bar and take a good look at the money find location.  It is highly unlikely that the money arrived there by normal river flow or by dredging.  It had to get there by some extraordinary event such as flooding from the Caterpillar Island area (my idea) or by human means (EUs idea).   

Ha! I’m sorry, Robert. Newbie mistake. I apologize!

I think you confused what I was saying. I agree 100% that military and civilian aircraft did NOT fly willy nilly.

I also agree that the plane was tracked both by civilian and military radar and that data (along with other) was used to recreate the flight path. No argument there.

The DMEs that I refer to are the distance measuring equipment (radio beacons) that are referred to in the transcripts. By calculating the times of the radio pings you can estimate speed and distance travelled between locations. Doing so reveals a flight path similar to the FBIs.

Chaucer, apology accepted.  If you had been aware of what was going on years ago on DropZone, you would completely understand my objections.  And that was long before DropZone became a pornographic site.

The military and the Seattle Air Traffic Control people were in all probability using the same radar site at McChord AFB.

There are three DME locations given for the airliner in the Seattle and Portland areas.  Those DME's are located in the ARINC teletype transcripts and all three support the Western Flight Path.

The military and the Seattle Air Traffic Control people were in all probability using the same radar site at McChord AFB.

Seattle Air Traffic Control utilized the radar site near Salem, OR to track 305 from Seattle south.

Georger - I agree completely re: where and when DBC jumped. We can all agree that the plane was somewhere between Tena Bar and the Washougal from west to east. The question is where along the north-south axis did he jump? Was it the original latitude near Lake Merwin? Or one further south near the Columbia? If he landed on ground then the money find becomes more perplexing. If he jumped near the Columbia then it becomes easier to understand.

R99 - I guess we will have to disagree with the DMEs. I agree with you on all other points you mentioned re: radar.

Chaucer, why do we disagree about the DMEs.  All three are on V-23.

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Georger - I agree completely re: where and when DBC jumped. We can all agree that the plane was somewhere between Tena Bar and the Washougal from west to east. The question is where along the north-south axis did he jump? Was it the original latitude near Lake Merwin? Or one further south near the Columbia? If he landed on ground then the money find becomes more perplexing. If he jumped near the Columbia then it becomes easier to understand.

R99 - I guess we will have to disagree with the DMEs. I agree with you on all other points you mentioned re: radar.

Chaucer, why do we disagree about the DMEs.  All three are on V-23.

My understanding is that there were two DMEs. One for Seattle and one for PDX (Battle Ground). What was the third?

My point is that using the DMEs you can know the speed, altitude, and distance traveled between those two points. Using that calculation, the western flight path is eliminated because it’s impossible to get from Seattle to Battle Ground in that amount of time if you detour around Portland to the west.
 
I can elaborate on this if you’d like.