Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 231896 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3030 on: July 25, 2020, 11:24:28 PM »
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They would have to be close to Portland to make any ground detection..8:05 is way out of the area to see lights with heavy cloud cover..

Does your simulator adjust for sky glow from cities and cloud cover under and over the plane ?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 11:30:54 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3031 on: July 25, 2020, 11:36:39 PM »
Not to be used as evidence with actual glow from cities under cloud coverage..most cloud coverage washes all light out from the ground.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3032 on: July 25, 2020, 11:44:31 PM »
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So if Rataczak is to be believed, 305 was north of the metro Portland area when Cooper jumped. Therefore, one can logically conclude that Cooper did not land in the Columbia River south of Tena Bar. After all, jumping near PDX is in the middle of the Portland metro area.

All of that said, how does the money arrive at Tena Bar if the FBI Flight Path is correct, and Cooper did not land in the Columbia River?

The only logical conclusion would be that he walked.

Well, there are a few major flaws with this scenario.

1) It entails Cooper travelling a good 30 to 40 miles that evening.

2) It necessitates Cooper walking through populated areas carrying a large white 20 lbs. bag of cash.

3) Even if he utilized the railroad tracks, he would have to literally travel through downtown Vancouver before either continuing north up to Ridgefield, where he would then have to cross over Lake River via the River "S" Bridge before walking another 8 miles south to Tena Bar...or he would have to walk 8  miles north up to Tena Bar from the Vancouver railroad yard, all the while avoiding cars and people while carrying the aforementioned 20 lbs of ransom before walking the same 8 miles back to Vancouver to leave the area.

BZZZZZZ.

None of that makes any sense.

What does make sense is that the jet flew the Western Flight Path, he jumped near the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge, he walked south via the only road out of the area which coincidentally brought him to Tena Bar, he temporarily buried the ransom before he walked into town, and the rest is history.

By the way, regarding the testimony of some who claim that they heard 305 fly right over their homes...perhaps what they actually heard were the F-106s which were--you guessed it--tracking 305 from a position several miles east of the airliner.

R's statement says nothing about when Cooper jumped. R's statement is: “ No, we did not see those lights (of Vancouver-Portland) that night; only their glow. "

My guess is, Carr's statement  about Rataczak was pulled from some 302 Carr found, which interprets Rataczak's earlier testimony to the FBI .... ? 
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 11:52:43 PM by georger »
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3033 on: July 26, 2020, 12:36:26 PM »
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A few posters have been aware I’ve contacted William Rataczak last August. I received a very nice response on Sept 11, 2019. I asked him only one question “ Did you see the lights of Portland/Vancouver on flight 305 ? “.
His direct answer was “ No, we did not see those lights that night; only their glow. The reason is that we were flying in heavy over and undercast skies. “  Since I was born about 25 miles from his present home, we exchanged a number of familiarities.

I’d like to add my thoughts regarding William Rataczak. Nov 24, 1971 is only one day in his incredible life’s accomplishments! I have never met him but it would be a great honor if I ever had the opportunity. He has accomplished so much more in serving his community and is widely admired for his deeds.
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3034 on: July 27, 2020, 12:38:51 AM »
Tell us more, Kerm.
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3035 on: July 27, 2020, 09:08:46 AM »
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Fcastle, if you listen to the podcast with McNally he goes through the whole hijacking. including the freefall spin, losing the money. what he could see during his decent and a hard landing..his story didn't change from a podcast a couple years ago..it gives an excellent view into the criminal mind. he had the co-pilot open the backdoor. both were worried of being sucked out the back.

The podcast was really well produced. this was why he wouldn't let me quote or say anything publicly he told me until it was released.

Shutter-I'll definitely check out the McNally podcast.  Thanks.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3036 on: July 28, 2020, 09:42:52 PM »
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So if Rataczak is to be believed, 305 was north of the metro Portland area when Cooper jumped. Therefore, one can logically conclude that Cooper did not land in the Columbia River south of Tena Bar. After all, jumping near PDX is in the middle of the Portland metro area.

All of that said, how does the money arrive at Tena Bar if the FBI Flight Path is correct, and Cooper did not land in the Columbia River?

The only logical conclusion would be that he walked.

Well, there are a few major flaws with this scenario.

1) It entails Cooper travelling a good 30 to 40 miles that evening.

2) It necessitates Cooper walking through populated areas carrying a large white 20 lbs. bag of cash.

3) Even if he utilized the railroad tracks, he would have to literally travel through downtown Vancouver before either continuing north up to Ridgefield, where he would then have to cross over Lake River via the River "S" Bridge before walking another 8 miles south to Tena Bar...or he would have to walk 8  miles north up to Tena Bar from the Vancouver railroad yard, all the while avoiding cars and people while carrying the aforementioned 20 lbs of ransom before walking the same 8 miles back to Vancouver to leave the area.

BZZZZZZ.

None of that makes any sense.

What does make sense is that the jet flew the Western Flight Path, he jumped near the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge, he walked south via the only road out of the area which coincidentally brought him to Tena Bar, he temporarily buried the ransom before he walked into town, and the rest is history.

By the way, regarding the testimony of some who claim that they heard 305 fly right over their homes...perhaps what they actually heard were the F-106s which were--you guessed it--tracking 305 from a position several miles east of the airliner.
The easy answer to your question is that he did, in fact, land in the Columbia River.

The central flight path is accurate, but Cooper jumped just south of Battle Ground, splashed own in the river, and the money traveled along the river and ended up on Tena Bar.

I think it’s much more logical to assume that the flight path was accurate and the jump was a few miles south, than to suggest that the jump spot was accurate but the flight path was off by dozens of miles.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3037 on: July 28, 2020, 10:39:19 PM »
But can you prove the central flight path is accurate?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3038 on: July 28, 2020, 10:42:10 PM »
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The easy answer to your question is that he did, in fact, land in the Columbia River.

The central flight path is accurate, but Cooper jumped just south of Battle Ground, splashed own in the river, and the money traveled along the river and ended up on Tena Bar.


Ah, my Dear Chaucer, can you explain how DBC jumped "just south of Battleground" and then ended up in the Columbia? Those of us 'blowing in the wind' from the SW with gusts to 15 mph, are a-wonderin'.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3039 on: July 28, 2020, 10:43:27 PM »
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But can you prove the central flight path is accurate?
Not anymore than you can prove it isn’t.

If things in this case were easily provable, none of us would be here! Lol
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3040 on: July 28, 2020, 10:58:52 PM »
Ah, that is why I speak - and write - with so much relativistic wordage. You ain't never gonna catch me saying, "the central flight path is accurate."

Rather, I say things like:

1. The central flight path is accurate, according to the FBI.
2. The CFP is accurate, according to Tom Kaye in his presentation at the 2011 Symposium, even though Cliff Ammerman, the ATC handling Flight 305 at the time of the jump, has stated to several researchers that Cooper was in the westernmost part of Victor-23 when he exited his aircraft.
3. The CFP is considered accurate by many researchers despite the lack of any corroboration, as not even radar transcripts from the FAA and SAGE have ever been made public. Further, Captain Scott has publically stated that 305 was over Woodland, WA and flew west of Portland in the time frame when Cooper jumped.

Etc.

It's not a complaint, Chauce. Only a request for all to check their absolute-ness at the Door to Cooper World before entering...
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3041 on: July 28, 2020, 11:19:51 PM »
I apologize if I came off as an absolutist. I’m quite the opposite. You’re quite right. I should have chosen my words better. I’m a college professor and professional researcher. I deal in logic, reason, and probability - none of which are absolute.

Yes, I think the central flight path favored by the FBI is the most likely one. I think most would agree including many with greater knowledge about the case than myself. Further, I think the jump spot is very debatable. The pressure bump is a good clue, but I think he could have jumped anywhere from Ariel to the Portland airport.

My personal opinion is that the most likely explanation for the money ending up on Tena Bar is that it ended up there accidentally rather than intentionally placed.  It was likely in the water prior to burial in the sand. If the money was in the water, then Cooper was most likely in the water as well since he was the last one seen with the money. If Cooper was in the water, then he likely landed in there moments after he jumped. An unexpected, cold water landing, at night, without proper equipment, with several extra pounds strapped to you, provides a low probability of survival.

Certainly, you can find more elaborate explanations, but then you begin slowly cutting your own wrists with Occam’s Razor.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3042 on: July 28, 2020, 11:25:31 PM »
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But can you prove the central flight path is accurate?

What can you PROVE?  Anything?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3043 on: July 28, 2020, 11:38:09 PM »
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I apologize if I came off as an absolutist. I’m quite the opposite. You’re quite right. I should have chosen my words better. I’m a college professor and professional researcher. I deal in logic, reason, and probability - none of which are absolute.

Yes, I think the central flight path favored by the FBI is the most likely one. I think most would agree including many with greater knowledge about the case than myself. Further, I think the jump spot is very debatable. The pressure bump is a good clue, but I think he could have jumped anywhere from Ariel to the Portland airport.

My personal opinion is that the most likely explanation for the money ending up on Tena Bar is that it ended up there accidentally rather than intentionally placed.  It was likely in the water prior to burial in the sand. If the money was in the water, then Cooper was most likely in the water as well since he was the last one seen with the money. If Cooper was in the water, then he likely landed in there moments after he jumped. An unexpected, cold water landing, at night, without proper equipment, with several extra pounds strapped to you, provides a low probability of survival.

Certainly, you can find more elaborate explanations, but then you begin slowly cutting your own wrists with Occam’s Razor.

Your theory is very close to Tosaw's conclusion.

My personal opinion is that the most likely explanation for the money ending up on Tena Bar is that it ended up there accidentally rather than intentionally placed.

That is a rational response and just maybe the only 'best guess' possible.  One key is when did Rataczak actually report Cooper has jumped ... all evidence points to later than 8:10. That central issue is one of the reasons Carr came to DZ, to open that issue up for debate/opinion. Then the debate strayed because you can never keep 'great egos' focusing for very long on anything at internet forums. So Carr's central issue got swept aside by things like: was Tina a zombie from an MKULTRA church?    So Carr's central issue got swept aside and still lingers after all these years. Post Colbert, post Cook/Smith, post EU, post R99, post RMB, etc the issue is still here waiting to be addressed. It was the single issue that kept Sluggo at DZ; when the issue wilted Sluggo left. When did Cooper bail? Where was the plane at that time.

So your theory is very much at the center of the whole Cooper debate. Congrats on bringing it back!  :bravo: 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 11:42:16 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3044 on: July 29, 2020, 12:12:48 AM »
Thanks, georger. That’s high praise coming from you.

I think you have to begin with the Tena Bar find and work backwards. How did it end up there? It was either intentionally placed there or ended up there by chance. If it was intentionally placed there, then you have to explain how and why Cooper jumped where most think he did and then travel all the way to Tena Bar to bury the money. And for what purpose? To “throw off the feds”? He’d already gotten away with it. Why provide the feds more evidence? And if you did want to plant evidence to throw off the feds, then why use a nice portion of the money you just risked your life to acquire? You simply can’t square a jump spot along the FBI flight path and the money ending up on Tena Bar without some very low probability circumstances taking place.

Yes, you could move the flight path dozens of miles west, but isn’t easier and more likely to just assume that Cooper jumped three or four minutes later than is guessed?

If you start with Tena Bar and work back, keeping your eye on all the known evidence about the money, then I think it becomes clear that the most likely scenario is that Cooper jumped a little farther south than believed and splashed down in the Columbia, losing the money and probably his life in the process. Outside of that, you become mired in unlikely and, in some cases, outlandish theories to reconcile an Ariel/Hockinson drop zone and the Tena Bar money find.

I’m certainly open to hearing evidence that contradicts my theory.