Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 217439 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2865 on: December 13, 2019, 05:58:37 PM »
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NASA sky pollution surveys - Portland vs Seattle 1970. The V23 corridor between the two cities is very dark. With dark adaptation Portland would stand out ahead to pilots at 10k ft. no matter the weather. There is no cloud cover known on Earth that could obscure sky glow from these cities. Red (+5) is as high as the scale goes in 1950-75.

Georger has apparently never seen a thunderstorm and his remarks about the weather are just more nonsense.  For his information, thunderstorms in the USA can reach 40 or 50 thousand feet altitude and up to 70 thousand feet in other parts of the world.  In fact, U-2's flying at 70 thousand feet on operational missions have had to detour around them in some parts of the world.

I'll bet the picture Georger posted was made on a clear night or nearly clear night.  And if it was a "sky pollution survey" made at night, what were the frequencies that were used in the survey equipment?  Were they all in the visual to the human eye range?

I think you mean wavelengths - as for the rest of your misleading bull -  :conspiracy:

Where did you ever get the idea that you are the only weather man that matters! ? Wy dont you just write a book?

Tell us all about dark adaptation in pilots. Is your horn honking? Check your keys ....  ;) 

Why are you throwing up another roadblock! ? You just spent days saying you always meant to say (and I was too dumb to see it!): "For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks."

Make up your mind Scrooge! Are you now denying you just said "For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks." ?

The NASA sky brightness atlases are made from satellite photometry, which includes the visual range 380nm to the near IR (800nm). Its the greatest atlas in the history of the world - Americans wanna know! Blah blah blah ... ;)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 06:30:25 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2866 on: December 13, 2019, 11:06:25 PM »
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NASA sky pollution surveys - Portland vs Seattle 1970. The V23 corridor between the two cities is very dark. With dark adaptation Portland would stand out ahead to pilots at 10k ft. no matter the weather. There is no cloud cover known on Earth that could obscure sky glow from these cities. Red (+5) is as high as the scale goes in 1950-75.

Georger has apparently never seen a thunderstorm and his remarks about the weather are just more nonsense.  For his information, thunderstorms in the USA can reach 40 or 50 thousand feet altitude and up to 70 thousand feet in other parts of the world.  In fact, U-2's flying at 70 thousand feet on operational missions have had to detour around them in some parts of the world.

I'll bet the picture Georger posted was made on a clear night or nearly clear night.  And if it was a "sky pollution survey" made at night, what were the frequencies that were used in the survey equipment?  Were they all in the visual to the human eye range?

I think you mean wavelengths - as for the rest of your misleading bull -  :conspiracy:

Where did you ever get the idea that you are the only weather man that matters! ? Wy dont you just write a book?

Tell us all about dark adaptation in pilots. Is your horn honking? Check your keys ....  ;) 

Why are you throwing up another roadblock! ? You just spent days saying you always meant to say (and I was too dumb to see it!): "For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks."

Make up your mind Scrooge! Are you now denying you just said "For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks." ?

The NASA sky brightness atlases are made from satellite photometry, which includes the visual range 380nm to the near IR (800nm). Its the greatest atlas in the history of the world - Americans wanna know! Blah blah blah ... ;)

Georger, didn't you claim at one point that you worked on the index for the NASA sky atlas?  If so, this is just you honking your own horn.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2867 on: December 14, 2019, 12:08:46 AM »
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NASA sky pollution surveys - Portland vs Seattle 1970. The V23 corridor between the two cities is very dark. With dark adaptation Portland would stand out ahead to pilots at 10k ft. no matter the weather. There is no cloud cover known on Earth that could obscure sky glow from these cities. Red (+5) is as high as the scale goes in 1950-75.

Georger has apparently never seen a thunderstorm and his remarks about the weather are just more nonsense.  For his information, thunderstorms in the USA can reach 40 or 50 thousand feet altitude and up to 70 thousand feet in other parts of the world.  In fact, U-2's flying at 70 thousand feet on operational missions have had to detour around them in some parts of the world.

I'll bet the picture Georger posted was made on a clear night or nearly clear night.  And if it was a "sky pollution survey" made at night, what were the frequencies that were used in the survey equipment?  Were they all in the visual to the human eye range?

I think you mean wavelengths - as for the rest of your misleading bull -  :conspiracy:

Where did you ever get the idea that you are the only weather man that matters! ? Wy dont you just write a book?

Tell us all about dark adaptation in pilots. Is your horn honking? Check your keys ....  ;) 

Why are you throwing up another roadblock! ? You just spent days saying you always meant to say (and I was too dumb to see it!): "For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks."

Make up your mind Scrooge! Are you now denying you just said "For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks." ?

The NASA sky brightness atlases are made from satellite photometry, which includes the visual range 380nm to the near IR (800nm). Its the greatest atlas in the history of the world - Americans wanna know! Blah blah blah ... ;)

Georger, didn't you claim at one point that you worked on the index for the NASA sky atlas?  If so, this is just you honking your own horn.

Well you are close -  :rofl:

The Moon. A NASA Lunar Atlas. Three of them. Farouk El-Baz was in charge of the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum, at the time. Maybe you knew him? Years ago I asked you if you knew him and you said 'no'.

When are you going to stop with your Inquisition?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2019, 12:17:23 AM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2868 on: January 01, 2020, 03:20:12 PM »
Here is why my trip to visit the mothballed 727 was important: I believe it helped me verify that a second piece of 305 was found, but once again, overlooked, by the FBI. Also, I believe this second piece of physical evidence strongly suggests that the FBI Flight Path is incorrect.

Remember, all I have to do is prove that the FBI Flight Path is incorrect in one spot. After all, by proving this it calls into question the veracity of the entire FBI Flight Path. Simply put: If the FBI Flight Path is incorrect in one spot, how do we know it’s not incorrect in some other spot(s)?

There is an FBI document—Part 35, Page 334—that describes a hunter finding an 8” X 40” piece of a 727 that fits “directly above the rear stairs.” The piece was found near Cinebar, WA by a Boeing employee who took the part number and confirmed with the 727 Section that the part is from a 727.

I am convinced that the piece the hunter/Boeing-employee discovered, in early 1975, was one of the missing airstairs railing skirts that are visibly absent in pictures and news footage of 305 after it landed in Reno.

I confirmed that the interior section of the aft airstairs compartment is paneled on the walls and ceiling by a thin and slightly flexible fiberglass sheeting. Moreover, I believe this is the same fiberglass sheeting used for the missing airstairs skirts.

According to the FBI document, the item was found by a hunter near Cinebar, WA. I have pinpointed the hunting grounds around the Cinebar area and learned that they are directly to the east of the town proper. Importantly, the extreme western edge of the hunting grounds is approximately 20 miles from the FBI Flight Path along the section that approaches and turns at Toledo, WA.

Why is this important?

This is important because the same science can be applied to the fiberglass skirt that was applied to the Hicks’ placard. More to the point, the fiberglass skirt drifted in the wind to the northeast just as the placard drifted after it separated from 305 at 10K feet. It is not possible that the fiberglass skirt drifted 20+ miles before landing in the Cinebar hunting grounds. In my opinion the piece likely drifted a few miles—perhaps 3, 4 or 5 miles.

This would appear to indicate that 305 was not situated on the FBI Flight Path as it approached Toledo, but rather that it was several miles east of the FBI Flight Path at this point. I have suspected this but have not been able to prove it, I believe, until now.

One of the reasons I have believed that the jet was further east at this point is because as I have flown out of Seattle many times over the years, jets departing on Runway 16 typically head due south for several miles before turning toward the southwest on the way to Toledo. I believe this suggests that the slow, lumbering and dirty 305 would have departed 16 L and headed directly south to about the Graham, WA or Eatonville, WA area before turning southwest toward the Maylay Intersection—not necessarily Toledo. Then at Maylay, 305 would have turned and headed effectively toward the Canby Intersection—or perhaps paralleled centerline V23 for a few miles before heading for Canby.

The Western Flight Path I’ve just described meets the timing criteria, lines up properly when considering the fiberglass skirt find, lines up properly when considering the Hicks’ placard find, explains the location of the Tena Bar money find, lines up with Captain Scott’s comments regarding flying over Woodland, WA and west of Portland, lines up with Cliff Ammerman’s comments about the headings of the chase planes and what he saw on his radar screen that night, and also explains why after nearly 50 years nothing has ever been found in the FBI Search Area adjacent to the FBI Flight Path.

However, it does not explain the FBI Flight Path. In my mind this is still a big mystery. Does the FBI Flight Path actually loosely track the F106s or T33 versus 305? I simply don’t know.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2869 on: January 01, 2020, 10:51:19 PM »
Could we get Lat/Long on that?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2870 on: January 01, 2020, 11:04:15 PM »
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Could we get Lat/Long on that?

I spoke with Bruce Kitt about this piece. he didn't believe it would last that long in the elements.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2871 on: January 01, 2020, 11:22:10 PM »
what I fail to see is a simple statement from the crew saying they flew a straight line? how hard would that of been to explain to everyone involved with the plotting. then we have no indication it was way off and to the west when they obviously seen the map after it was produced. they were part of it? everyone wants to tell the pilots where they flew?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 11:30:14 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2872 on: January 01, 2020, 11:53:17 PM »
Cinbar cords should be   46°36'19.0"N 122°32'20.0"W
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2873 on: January 02, 2020, 04:12:06 PM »
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what I fail to see is a simple statement from the crew saying they flew a straight line? how hard would that of been to explain to everyone involved with the plotting. then we have no indication it was way off and to the west when they obviously seen the map after it was produced. they were part of it? everyone wants to tell the pilots where they flew?

Captain Scott apparently did tell Himmelsbach that he  believed they flew about 10 miles west of the FBI search area, specifically over Woodland. Also, he apparently stated they flew west of downtown Portland. Then, of course, we have Rataczack saying he believed the jet traveled east of the FBI Flight Path over the Washougal area. Somebody's wrong.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2874 on: January 02, 2020, 04:17:42 PM »
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Could we get Lat/Long on that?

I spoke with Bruce Kitt about this piece. he didn't believe it would last that long in the elements.

Bruce Kitt is simply flat out wrong about this.

The piece is made of fiberglass. It would likely survive 200 years let alone 3 years. Consider that the 727 home in Oregon--which has its airstairs permanently deployed and still has the fiberglass skirting in place--hasn't had a problem with the fiberglass skirting rotting away in the elements after decades of exposure.

Common sense is required here. How on God's green earth does a piece of a 727 from inside the airstairs compartment end up in the woods? Moreover, we know with certainty that there were a couple of pieces just like this missing from 305 when it landed in Reno.

What kind of odds would be required to explain the likelihood that this piece is not from 305? What other piece that size, from a 727, situated "above the airstairs" could it possibly be?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2020, 04:40:20 PM by EU »
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2875 on: January 02, 2020, 04:51:24 PM »
You are jumping miles ahead. fiberglass will last only as long as it can hold up in the elements. boats can last 50 years but it's a different application. plus it has paint and coating protecting it.

 "Fiberglass itself will not break down but instead will break down due to outside factors"

The piece appears to be in the right spot but more info is needed. part number and location of the part number..etc.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2876 on: January 02, 2020, 05:01:33 PM »
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You are jumping miles ahead. fiberglass will last only as long as it can hold up in the elements. boats can last 50 years but it's a different application. plus it has paint and coating protecting it.

 "Fiberglass itself will not break down but instead will break down due to outside factors"

The piece appears to be in the right spot but more info is needed. part number and location of the part number..etc.

The piece was found in very early 1975. It would have been in the elements for only three years.

Also, as noted above, we do not need to speculate. The Boeing 727 home in Hillsboro, OR has its airstairs permanently deployed and still has the original fiberglass skirting in place. This fiberglass has been exposed to the elements for decades and is perfectly fine.

I have discussed the skirting with the owner of the 727 home. He attempted to find a part number on the skirt but wasn't successful...not sure where it would be located.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2877 on: March 21, 2020, 08:22:38 PM »
Several things that I think validate a Western Flight Path:

1)   The FBI Flight Path is very erratic around the Vancouver and Portland area. For a crew that didn’t even squawk 7700 because they were afraid Cooper may interpret that as “funny stuff,” they apparently were not at all concerned about how he would interpret one sharp turn after another. Not to mention, they apparently weren’t concerned about knocking the “bomb” off the seat with such erratic flying or concerned about flying directly over several areas of dense population.

2)   The placard—a piece of evidence—and its drift analysis do not support the FBI Flight Path.

3)   The Tena Bar money—a piece of evidence—does not support the FBI Flight Path.

4)   The find at Cinnebar, WA—I believe this is one of the two missing fiberglass skirts from the airstairs—and its drift analysis do not support the FBI Flight Path.

If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that the individual at McChord who was tasked with crunching radar data to re-create the flight path two days later, probably used target data from the F-106s not realizing that they were flying several miles east of 305—not behind it—during that very critical portion of the flight.

All of this said, I think R99 and I would both agree that the Western Flight Path theory runs contrary to conventional wisdom, therefore we are obligated to prove we’re right and that everyone else is wrong.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2878 on: March 22, 2020, 04:12:33 PM »
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Several things that I think validate a Western Flight Path:

1)   The FBI Flight Path is very erratic around the Vancouver and Portland area. For a crew that didn’t even squawk 7700 because they were afraid Cooper may interpret that as “funny stuff,” they apparently were not at all concerned about how he would interpret one sharp turn after another. Not to mention, they apparently weren’t concerned about knocking the “bomb” off the seat with such erratic flying or concerned about flying directly over several areas of dense population.

2)   The placard—a piece of evidence—and its drift analysis do not support the FBI Flight Path.

3)   The Tena Bar money—a piece of evidence—does not support the FBI Flight Path.

4)   The find at Cinnebar, WA—I believe this is one of the two missing fiberglass skirts from the airstairs—and its drift analysis do not support the FBI Flight Path.

If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that the individual at McChord who was tasked with crunching radar data to re-create the flight path two days later, probably used target data from the F-106s not realizing that they were flying several miles east of 305—not behind it—during that very critical portion of the flight.

All of this said, I think R99 and I would both agree that the Western Flight Path theory runs contrary to conventional wisdom, therefore we are obligated to prove we’re right and that everyone else is wrong.

There was no "individual at McChord who was tasked with crunching radar data". It was a team of people. And a computer! One member of the team was part of the TAG team. That's basic fact ... but you keep inserting your own facts!  :o

Maybe your guy did it all on an abacus in his lap or sitting on the toilet?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 04:26:01 PM by georger »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2879 on: March 22, 2020, 04:56:13 PM »
It would be unfathomable for the Air Force to have tracked the wrong aircraft... for the ENTIRE flight. The original map stretches well south of the area we focus on, and chase aircraft came and went. When did the Air force stop tracking 305... and when did they start tracking it again?