Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 178338 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2835 on: October 06, 2019, 09:55:08 AM »
Nobody said you have to guess anything. transcripts are from the date they were spoken, correct? that means it was at approx. 8:10, 11, 12 of November 24, 1971? that is the portion involving the flight path and timing of the jump. they are in the new files which a link was given...

Read the files?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 11:31:01 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2836 on: October 06, 2019, 09:56:28 AM »
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Wow. Jump time is now 8:11?

If you read the document it gives three time frames. one exceeds the time of 8:11.

It appears that Cooper went down the stairs at 8:10 and between 8:10 and 8:11. a reference of "fluctuating" occurs and then jumps at 8:12. they report at 8:10 that it's possible he left but obviously didn't since more is said following the 8:10 transmission up to 8:12.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 10:13:49 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2837 on: October 06, 2019, 01:18:42 PM »
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Wow. Jump time is now 8:11?

When did it become anything other than 8:11 or 8:12?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2838 on: October 06, 2019, 01:27:21 PM »
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These transcripts are for communications with NWA offices over the ARINC radio link and not for communications with the Seattle ATC Center.

They may be the teletype version of those ARINC communications.  In any event, they were deleted from the teletype transcripts that Fred Poyner at WSHM had access to just as some transcripts with the Seattle ATC Center were also deleted.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2839 on: October 06, 2019, 02:04:17 PM »
They appear to have the 8:11 location on the map where they believe Cooper jumped. an oscillation is reported at 8:12 and 8:10. it still basically puts the jump in the area of 8:11, 12. these were based on logs from Northwest airlines, Seattle and Minneapolis and the recordings of the flight that evening.
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2840 on: October 06, 2019, 02:27:20 PM »
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They appear to have the 8:11 location on the map where they believe Cooper jumped. an oscillation is reported at 8:12 and 8:10. it still basically puts the jump in the area of 8:11, 12. these were based on logs from Northwest airlines, Seattle and Minneapolis and the recordings of the flight that evening.

Fred Poyner and I discussed the ARINC communications system with ARINC personnel a few year ago.  This was about two or three weeks before the Malaysian airliner went missing in the Indian Ocean.  The ARINC personnel were extremely helpful and informative.

As I remember it, ARINC doesn't keep records for decades.  In any event, ARINC is a private company that provides services to the airlines that subscribe to their services.  NWA did keep copies of the teletype communications with the hijacked airliner and some of those transcripts had previously been made available to Fred Poyner and his group at the WSHM.  Poyner's group made a study of those teletype printouts and determined that some had been deleted from the NWA transcripts.

NWA apparently made a tape recording of the radio communications through the ARINC link and that is what Shutter discusses above.  It would be extremely helpful to have access to this recording as well as the deleted teletype printouts and the deleted transcripts of the airliner's communications with the Seattle ATC Center.  But don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.   
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2841 on: October 06, 2019, 02:49:58 PM »
New DZ maps are supplied with the new files and how they came to conclusions of moving the jump point. the original area was thought to be just north of Highlands Wa. this moves it west of Highland, actually it's southwest of Highland and just east of the centerline of V23...
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 02:54:07 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2842 on: October 06, 2019, 03:58:04 PM »
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These transcripts are for communications with NWA offices over the ARINC radio link and not for communications with the Seattle ATC Center.

They may be the teletype version of those ARINC communications.  In any event, they were deleted from the teletype transcripts that Fred Poyner at WSHM had access to just as some transcripts with the Seattle ATC Center were also deleted.

So what! ?   Fred Poyner at WSHM was not even a party to the communications passing between parties for the purpose of a search, in 1971-72. And neither were you! I seriously doubt anyone in 1971-72 was anticipating or trying to satisfy a Fred Poyner at WSHM or an R99 demanding complete records and documentation ... in 2008-2019 for their own research project!

I see no evidence important evidence was being DELETED or WITHHELD from parties who needed that information to conduct a search, back in 1971-72. In fact there is a sharing of information complete with all the uncertainties, in order to frame an appropriate search for DB Cooper at the time.

The issue in 1971 was a complete and accurate transmission of facts and evidence between all the parties involved at the time in 1971-72, in order for the FBI to conduct a search for Cooper at the time. It looks like a historically accurate portrait of the evidence that was available at the time being shared between NWA and the FBI. If anything is missing it would be information being shared by the Air Force with these parties at the time.

Please specify what information you believe was being concealed at the time, and concealed from whom, by whom?  

Your demands for 'all the records' today is a completely separate matter. Moreover, your contention records have been withheld and/or deleted from view today, is not prima facia evidence the NWA/FBI/AF flight path is wrong. And Eric Ulis' squirreling-around of words alleged said by Cliff Ammerman is not solid evidence of anything either!

And, the fact that Cooper money was found near Vancouver is not prima facia evidence the NWA/FBI/AF flight path is wrong either!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 04:33:52 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2843 on: October 06, 2019, 04:46:18 PM »
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These transcripts are for communications with NWA offices over the ARINC radio link and not for communications with the Seattle ATC Center.

They may be the teletype version of those ARINC communications.  In any event, they were deleted from the teletype transcripts that Fred Poyner at WSHM had access to just as some transcripts with the Seattle ATC Center were also deleted.

So what! ?   Fred Poyner at WSHM was not even a party to the communications passing between parties for the purpose of a search, in 1971-72. And neither were you! I seriously doubt anyone in 1971-72 was anticipating or trying to satisfy a Fred Poyner at WSHM or an R99 demanding complete records and documentation ... in 2008-2019 for their own research project!

I see no evidence important evidence was being DELETED or WITHHELD from parties who needed that information to conduct a search, back in 1971-72. In fact there is a sharing of information complete with all the uncertainties, in order to frame an appropriate search for DB Cooper at the time.

The issue in 1971 was a complete and accurate transmission of facts and evidence between all the parties involved at the time in 1971-72, in order for the FBI to conduct a search for Cooper at the time. It looks like a historically accurate portrait of the evidence that was available at the time being shared between NWA and the FBI. If anything is missing it would be information being shared by the Air Force with these parties at the time.

Please specify what information you believe was being concealed at the time, and concealed from whom?  

Your demands for 'all the records' today is a completely separate matter.

Here we go again!  Georger, you simply don't know what you are talking about!  Apparently you don't need any information to arrive at your conclusions.  Like some politicians, you feel you know everything about everything even if you don't know which end of an airplane takes off first - and you don't!

Since you do not have any aeronautical knowledge or experience or any knowledge or experience about navigation, it is easy to understand why you would write "I see no evidence important evidence was being DELETED or WITHHELD from parties who needed that information to conduct a search, back in 1971-1972."  Hopefully, no such information was withheld from the searchers. 

But Cooper wasn't kidnapped by little green men from Mars.  Either he landed in one of the two drop zones that were searched or he didn't and there is absolutely no proof that he did.  The deletion of all information related to the flight path in the Portland area strongly suggests that whoever determined those drop zones got it wrong and deleted the information as a CYA gesture.

Neither Fred Poyner nor I am demanding "complete records"!  The total deleted records that would determine the flight path would probably be a lot less than 20 pages.

A reputable individual with any genuine scientific training knows the difference between "facts" and "wild eyed speculations".  Unfortunately, the facts don't support your conclusions. 


 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2844 on: October 06, 2019, 05:01:14 PM »
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New DZ maps are supplied with the new files and how they came to conclusions of moving the jump point. the original area was thought to be just north of Highlands Wa. this moves it west of Highland, actually it's southwest of Highland and just east of the centerline of V23...

Does anyone have any information about the GEOREF, or Geographical Reference, and the "Lat & Long" computer program mention in that item?  The "plus or minus 1 mile" for the GEOREF program and "plus or minus 1/2 mile" for the "Lat & Long" computer program are not very good for the relatively short distances involved here.  The flight crew could probably eye-ball it better than that.  Apparently the flight crew were not involved in determining the geographical jump zones.

It will be interesting to see what Captain Scott's daughter has to say at the Portland event next month.  She has previously been quoted as saying that Captain Scott said that the claimed flight path was wrong.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2845 on: October 06, 2019, 05:25:24 PM »
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These transcripts are for communications with NWA offices over the ARINC radio link and not for communications with the Seattle ATC Center.

They may be the teletype version of those ARINC communications.  In any event, they were deleted from the teletype transcripts that Fred Poyner at WSHM had access to just as some transcripts with the Seattle ATC Center were also deleted.

So what! ?   Fred Poyner at WSHM was not even a party to the communications passing between parties for the purpose of a search, in 1971-72. And neither were you! I seriously doubt anyone in 1971-72 was anticipating or trying to satisfy a Fred Poyner at WSHM or an R99 demanding complete records and documentation ... in 2008-2019 for their own research project!

I see no evidence important evidence was being DELETED or WITHHELD from parties who needed that information to conduct a search, back in 1971-72. In fact there is a sharing of information complete with all the uncertainties, in order to frame an appropriate search for DB Cooper at the time.

The issue in 1971 was a complete and accurate transmission of facts and evidence between all the parties involved at the time in 1971-72, in order for the FBI to conduct a search for Cooper at the time. It looks like a historically accurate portrait of the evidence that was available at the time being shared between NWA and the FBI. If anything is missing it would be information being shared by the Air Force with these parties at the time.

Please specify what information you believe was being concealed at the time, and concealed from whom?  

Your demands for 'all the records' today is a completely separate matter.

Here we go again!  Georger, you simply don't know what you are talking about!  Apparently you don't need any information to arrive at your conclusions.  Like some politicians, you feel you know everything about everything even if you don't know which end of an airplane takes off first - and you don't!

Since you do not have any aeronautical knowledge or experience or any knowledge or experience about navigation, it is easy to understand why you would write "I see no evidence important evidence was being DELETED or WITHHELD from parties who needed that information to conduct a search, back in 1971-1972."  Hopefully, no such information was withheld from the searchers. 

But Cooper wasn't kidnapped by little green men from Mars.  Either he landed in one of the two drop zones that were searched or he didn't and there is absolutely no proof that he did.  The deletion of all information related to the flight path in the Portland area strongly suggests that whoever determined those drop zones got it wrong and deleted the information as a CYA gesture.

Neither Fred Poyner nor I am demanding "complete records"!  The total deleted records that would determine the flight path would probably be a lot less than 20 pages.

A reputable individual with any genuine scientific training knows the difference between "facts" and "wild eyed speculations".  Unfortunately, the facts don't support your conclusions.

So far no FBI record confirms any suspicion that Cooper may have landed near Tina Bar, or in the Washougal basin either. No other record or news interview suggests that suspicion either, prior to money turning up at Tina Bar. No expert consulted by the FBI suggested a Tina Bar landing or that the assumed FBI flight path was radically wrong. No researchers or independent observers have made that suggestion either. Farflung did not make that suggestion. Only you and Ulis. Maybe Blevins and Grey Cop fit in there somewhere . . .

So, only you and Ulis are correct and everyone else is a dumbass who can't know the truth due to a lack of qualifications only you have!

Then it turns out you and Ulis don't even agree.  The co-pays are different and too high!

Wonderful -a-wonnerfal. Bring on the Lemon Sisters in their latest version of 'Auld lang syne'. Orchestra please. A one anna two anna three anna . . .
       
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 05:33:04 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2846 on: October 06, 2019, 05:45:49 PM »
Out of curiosity, would The Air Force, radar operators (close by) flight data recorder and pilot testimony fall under "wild eyed speculation"? can we define this a little better?

I just find it hard to believe none of the pilots said they flew a straight line which would be simple to tell? a pilot's license is not required for this. it's basically the opposite for evidence of another path vs the one they concluded. a common route doesn't say a mandatory route must be taken. we now see more transmissions from 305 but I don't see a reason to hide them.

Now, the last time I checked, Paul has more experience than anyone on this board, correct? I find it hard for someone of his expertise to wildly speculate anything nor would the Air Force. wouldn't it be wild speculation to tell the pilots where they were. how did they even find Reno?

The last time I checked the proper procedure for a theory is to dismiss the known evidence and showing the proof. I've heard for years the radar can't be trusted past Toledo and the red dots on the map represent bad returns, correct? then you believe Ammerman 50 years later in the very same area? can anyone say for sure 305 was not to report any location that would give away there position during the hijacking? I've also read it's possible that the FDR did not have minute marks on the foil. a document tends to disagree with that. are we really ready to say the FBI wasted a lot of time and money searching the wrong area due to Paul and the Air Forces speculation?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2847 on: October 06, 2019, 05:52:40 PM »
I spoke with Eric on the phone not long ago. we discussed certain parts of the path etc. my conclusion was the case isn't getting any younger and the witnesses are slowly dying off. the remaining pilots have a story and will soon take it to there graves. the chase planes have a story as well. this can go back and forth for decades to come....
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2848 on: October 06, 2019, 06:36:36 PM »
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These transcripts are for communications with NWA offices over the ARINC radio link and not for communications with the Seattle ATC Center.

They may be the teletype version of those ARINC communications.  In any event, they were deleted from the teletype transcripts that Fred Poyner at WSHM had access to just as some transcripts with the Seattle ATC Center were also deleted.

So what! ?   Fred Poyner at WSHM was not even a party to the communications passing between parties for the purpose of a search, in 1971-72. And neither were you! I seriously doubt anyone in 1971-72 was anticipating or trying to satisfy a Fred Poyner at WSHM or an R99 demanding complete records and documentation ... in 2008-2019 for their own research project!

I see no evidence important evidence was being DELETED or WITHHELD from parties who needed that information to conduct a search, back in 1971-72. In fact there is a sharing of information complete with all the uncertainties, in order to frame an appropriate search for DB Cooper at the time.

The issue in 1971 was a complete and accurate transmission of facts and evidence between all the parties involved at the time in 1971-72, in order for the FBI to conduct a search for Cooper at the time. It looks like a historically accurate portrait of the evidence that was available at the time being shared between NWA and the FBI. If anything is missing it would be information being shared by the Air Force with these parties at the time.

Please specify what information you believe was being concealed at the time, and concealed from whom?  

Your demands for 'all the records' today is a completely separate matter.

Here we go again!  Georger, you simply don't know what you are talking about!  Apparently you don't need any information to arrive at your conclusions.  Like some politicians, you feel you know everything about everything even if you don't know which end of an airplane takes off first - and you don't!

Since you do not have any aeronautical knowledge or experience or any knowledge or experience about navigation, it is easy to understand why you would write "I see no evidence important evidence was being DELETED or WITHHELD from parties who needed that information to conduct a search, back in 1971-1972."  Hopefully, no such information was withheld from the searchers. 

But Cooper wasn't kidnapped by little green men from Mars.  Either he landed in one of the two drop zones that were searched or he didn't and there is absolutely no proof that he did.  The deletion of all information related to the flight path in the Portland area strongly suggests that whoever determined those drop zones got it wrong and deleted the information as a CYA gesture.

Neither Fred Poyner nor I am demanding "complete records"!  The total deleted records that would determine the flight path would probably be a lot less than 20 pages.

A reputable individual with any genuine scientific training knows the difference between "facts" and "wild eyed speculations".  Unfortunately, the facts don't support your conclusions.

So far no FBI record confirms any suspicion that Cooper may have landed near Tina Bar, or in the Washougal basin either. No other record or news interview suggests that suspicion either, prior to money turning up at Tina Bar. No expert consulted by the FBI suggested a Tina Bar landing or that the assumed FBI flight path was radically wrong. No researchers or independent observers have made that suggestion either. Farflung did not make that suggestion. Only you and Ulis. Maybe Blevins and Grey Cop fit in there somewhere . . .

So, only you and Ulis are correct and everyone else is a dumbass who can't know the truth due to a lack of qualifications only you have!

Then it turns out you and Ulis don't even agree.  The co-pays are different and too high!

Wonderful -a-wonnerfal. Bring on the Lemon Sisters in their latest version of 'Auld lang syne'. Orchestra please. A one anna two anna three anna . . .
     

Georger, you finally got one point right and that is that Eric Ulis and I don't agree on what happened after Cooper jumped.  We do agree on the western bypass of Portland flight path.

You need to pay a visit to Tina Bar and give some consideration as to how the money got there.  Consider both the flight path and what happened after Cooper jumped and what forces would be acting on the money after he was on the ground.  Even the FBI has ruled out the Washougal washdown theory I understand and there are several good reasons for doing so just based on the topography of the Tina Bar area.

Why don't you do some honest "field work" and visit Tina Bar.  You could also attend EU's event in November and talk to Captain Scott's daughter about what he told her relative to the flight path.  So get off your lazy ass and stop pontificating.  You might have to work up a sweat or even get wet (there is a lot of rain in Portland during November), but you would at least have some first hand knowledge.  You may pontificate but Mother Nature has the final say.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2849 on: October 06, 2019, 06:50:00 PM »
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Out of curiosity, would The Air Force, radar operators (close by) flight data recorder and pilot testimony fall under "wild eyed speculation"? can we define this a little better?

I just find it hard to believe none of the pilots said they flew a straight line which would be simple to tell? a pilot's license is not required for this. it's basically the opposite for evidence of another path vs the one they concluded. a common route doesn't say a mandatory route must be taken. we now see more transmissions from 305 but I don't see a reason to hide them.

Now, the last time I checked, Paul has more experience than anyone on this board, correct? I find it hard for someone of his expertise to wildly speculate anything nor would the Air Force. wouldn't it be wild speculation to tell the pilots where they were. how did they even find Reno?

The last time I checked the proper procedure for a theory is to dismiss the known evidence and showing the proof. I've heard for years the radar can't be trusted past Toledo and the red dots on the map represent bad returns, correct? then you believe Ammerman 50 years later in the very same area? can anyone say for sure 305 was not to report any location that would give away there position during the hijacking? I've also read it's possible that the FDR did not have minute marks on the foil. a document tends to disagree with that. are we really ready to say the FBI wasted a lot of time and money searching the wrong area due to Paul and the Air Forces speculation?

In this particular instance, the FDR would be about the least reliable thing for determining the flight path.  I would suggest that you and Georger download and actually read some of the FAA publications on the Air Traffic Control system, the accuracy of radars, and the accuracy of the VOR systems that the airliner was using.

I assume that the "Paul" is Paul Soderland (spelling?).  Did he have anything to use other than the information from sources mentioned in the above paragraph?  It appears that the pilot's were not debriefed by the FBI except in Reno on the evening of the hijacking.  And I believe a possible jump zone was worked up even before the airliner got to Reno.

I think you and I have a different understanding of what the word "evidence" means.