Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 735213 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2745 on: August 27, 2019, 02:11:43 AM »
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I know for certain that Robert only believes in his own theory and nothing else will ever matter. There’s so much information still out there but Robert actually knows exactly what happened. I will no longer waste my time responding as it will ALWAYS come back to Cooper was a no pull at Tina Bar. How boring and especially since there is no proof to support it except in his mind.
Bruce has a great Tour planned for Nov 24 and it’s free ! I’m not involved but I really think it will be interesting for folks to see the area where all this took place. I hope a lot of Cooperites get aboard ! I’ve read 5 books already about Cooper and might add a few more. I find them all very interesting ! The D B Cooper story is still unsolved in most of our minds and I for one enjoy exploring all the little nicks and crannies.

Not to mention Captain Scott’s daughter appearing and speaking!

Kermit do you know who 'Eric of Portland' was? (a Cooper researcher at Portland circa 2000-8). Whoever he was he claimed to have talked to Scott's family. He reported Scott's family saying 305 flew west of Portland and probably over Tena Bar.

Yes that will be awesome ! I hope there will be a chance to ask her some questions from the audience.

What about this Eric of Portland? Ever run into him or hear about him, in the Cooper context?
No I don’t know this Eric of Portland. Do you have more info on him ?

I can get it very easily - do you want it? Let me make a call tomorrow and I will get back to you. Thanks.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2746 on: August 27, 2019, 02:29:07 AM »
I find it interesting that U&R are ignoring the Tosaw legacy. Tosaw wasnt an engineer and he didn't do math calcs personally, so far as I know, but he hired people who did! That's a fact. He used engineers in several of his well known projects. He consulted with engineers in his Cooper work. He definitely interviewed Scott and Rataczak, several times. He filed a number of FOI's to get govt records - in one of his cases he filed against the US Navy and won records, including the log of a US destroyer. He regularly talked with FBI agents. His calls to the Portland office during one phase of his work was so intense, Portland assigned an agent to take his calls! Several of the people who worked for him said they thought Tosaw was an FBI agent working on the case. He had copies of official documents, and he had a large folded copy of the FBI search (color white), similar people say to the large search maps seen in photos of offcials who were looking for Cooper in 1972.

So far as I know Tosaw never claimed Cooper had landed at Tena Bar. But he did believe Cooper had landed in the Columbia upstream of Caterpillar Island. Tosaw said the FBI's mistake was in the timing and position of where Copper bailed. H never questioned the claimed flight path and he was in a position to do so had he ever uncovered evidence that the flight path was wrong. Tosaw was usually very thorough in the technical side of his research, for cases he handled. He always availed himself of the latest technology available in his searches.

Its worth considering.     
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 02:31:29 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2747 on: August 27, 2019, 02:33:01 AM »
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I find it interesting that U&R are ignoring the Tosaw legacy. Tosaw wasnt an engineer and he didn't do math calcs personally, so far as I know, but he hired people who did! That's a fact. He used engineers in several of his well known projects. He consulted with engineers in his Cooper work. He definitely interviewed Scott and Rataczak, several times. He filed a number of FOI's to get govt records - in one of his cases he filed against the US Navy and won records, including the log of a US destroyer. He regularly talked with FBI agents. His calls to the Portland office during one phase of his work was so intense, Portland assigned an agent to take his calls! Several of the people who worked for him said they thought Tosaw was an FBI agent working on the case. He had copies of official documents, and he had a large folded copy of the FBI search (color white), similar people say to the large search maps seen in photos of offcials who were looking for Cooper in 1972.

So far as I know Tosaw never claimed Cooper had landed at Tena Bar. But he did believe Cooper had landed in the Columbia upstream of Caterpillar Island. Tosaw said the FBI's mistake was in the timing and position of where Copper bailed. H never questioned the claimed flight path and he was in a position to do so had he ever uncovered evidence that the flight path was wrong. Tosaw was usually very thorough in the technical side of his research, for cases he handled. He always availed himself of the latest technology available in his searches.

Its worth considering.   

As I have mentioned on a number of occasions, Tosaw's work and interest in the Tina Bar area was definitely considered.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2748 on: August 27, 2019, 02:40:17 AM »
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I find it interesting that U&R are ignoring the Tosaw legacy. Tosaw wasnt an engineer and he didn't do math calcs personally, so far as I know, but he hired people who did! That's a fact. He used engineers in several of his well known projects. He consulted with engineers in his Cooper work. He definitely interviewed Scott and Rataczak, several times. He filed a number of FOI's to get govt records - in one of his cases he filed against the US Navy and won records, including the log of a US destroyer. He regularly talked with FBI agents. His calls to the Portland office during one phase of his work was so intense, Portland assigned an agent to take his calls! Several of the people who worked for him said they thought Tosaw was an FBI agent working on the case. He had copies of official documents, and he had a large folded copy of the FBI search (color white), similar people say to the large search maps seen in photos of offcials who were looking for Cooper in 1972.

So far as I know Tosaw never claimed Cooper had landed at Tena Bar. But he did believe Cooper had landed in the Columbia upstream of Caterpillar Island. Tosaw said the FBI's mistake was in the timing and position of where Copper bailed. H never questioned the claimed flight path and he was in a position to do so had he ever uncovered evidence that the flight path was wrong. Tosaw was usually very thorough in the technical side of his research, for cases he handled. He always availed himself of the latest technology available in his searches.

Its worth considering.   

As I have mentioned on a number of occasions, Tosaw's work and interest in the Tina Bar area was definitely considered.

Mr. Shadow: I may post again at 4:00am and 5:00am, maybe even at 6:00am and 8:00am. Stay tuned for instant intervention - nullification. Knock yourself out. 

 :rofl:
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 02:41:35 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2749 on: August 27, 2019, 02:42:18 AM »
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I find it interesting that U&R are ignoring the Tosaw legacy. Tosaw wasnt an engineer and he didn't do math calcs personally, so far as I know, but he hired people who did! That's a fact. He used engineers in several of his well known projects. He consulted with engineers in his Cooper work. He definitely interviewed Scott and Rataczak, several times. He filed a number of FOI's to get govt records - in one of his cases he filed against the US Navy and won records, including the log of a US destroyer. He regularly talked with FBI agents. His calls to the Portland office during one phase of his work was so intense, Portland assigned an agent to take his calls! Several of the people who worked for him said they thought Tosaw was an FBI agent working on the case. He had copies of official documents, and he had a large folded copy of the FBI search (color white), similar people say to the large search maps seen in photos of offcials who were looking for Cooper in 1972.

So far as I know Tosaw never claimed Cooper had landed at Tena Bar. But he did believe Cooper had landed in the Columbia upstream of Caterpillar Island. Tosaw said the FBI's mistake was in the timing and position of where Copper bailed. H never questioned the claimed flight path and he was in a position to do so had he ever uncovered evidence that the flight path was wrong. Tosaw was usually very thorough in the technical side of his research, for cases he handled. He always availed himself of the latest technology available in his searches.

Its worth considering.   

As I have mentioned on a number of occasions, Tosaw's work and interest in the Tina Bar area was definitely considered.

Mr. Shadow: I may post again at 4:00am and 5:00am, maybe even at 6:00am and 8:00am. Stay tuned for instant response.

 :rofl:

Great!  Why don't you describe your aeronautical qualifications in one of those posts.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2750 on: August 27, 2019, 01:14:08 PM »
Is there a falsifiable standard to this Western Flight Path? Without it, where does this discussion get us?
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2751 on: August 27, 2019, 02:39:57 PM »
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Is there a falsifiable standard to this Western Flight Path? Without it, where does this discussion get us?

Please explain what you would consider to be a falsifiable standard here.

As Georger has stated above, he has known for years (10+ years?) that Captain Scott had told people that he bypassed Portland on the west side and probably flown over Tina Bar.  This same information has come from a number of people other than the ones that Georger cited.

The Malay to Canby bypass only saves about 2 or 3 Nautical Miles in distance flown and at a ground speed of 3 nautical miles per minute this means about 40 seconds to 1 minute in time.  And this time is not large enough to show up in the available data.

Time wise, George Harrison's notes describe the airliner as being "23 DME Nautical Miles" from the Portland VORTAC (now named the Battleground VORTAC) and south of Portland at 8:18 PM PST.  This puts the airliner on the west edge of V-23 if it flew direct from Malay to Canby.  And this also means that the airliner would have a VERY difficult time getting to that point if it was well north of the Portland VORTAC (according to some radar claims) at the claimed 8:13 jump time (which is claimed by some) and stayed on V-23 and the V-23 centerline (as claimed by some).

Three FOIA actions involving the FBI/DOJ/FAA were filed in an attempt to get the unredacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts for the flight south from Seattle.  Two of those actions went directly through my US Congressman's Office and the FBI's Congressional Liaison Office.  The end result was two pieces of paper, which are posted on this site, and which did not provide any useful information related to the flight path.  It should be noted that the information we were seeking was transmitted over regular air traffic control frequencies and could be heard by anyone with a VHF radio receiver.  And quite a few people reportedly did listen in.

The communications between the airliner and NWA were conducted over the ARINC radio system to ARINC ground stations.  From these ground stations, the information to be passed to NWA would be typed into a teletype and then passed over a ground network to the appropriate NWA station.  In the hijacking, a voice communication link was also established so that NWA personnel and the airliner could talk to each other.  The ARINC personnel also sent a teletype version of those conversation over the ground link.  Normally for short conversations it took about two minutes from the time a voice communication was made until ARINC had a teletype version transmitted.  In the case of the "23 DME" transmission, it took four minutes which means that this was probably a longer conversation, other things being equal.

ARINC is a commercial subscription service to the airline industry.  Consequently, I did not ask for their transcripts although some were included in the "FBI Notes" and at other places.  I only asked for the transcripts of the public transmissions that were made over the Federal Air Traffic Control system.

All of the above has been discussed in greater detail over the last several years.

Any suggestions?       


 
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 02:43:40 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2752 on: August 27, 2019, 02:59:22 PM »
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Is there a falsifiable standard to this Western Flight Path? Without it, where does this discussion get us?

Please explain what you would consider to be a falsifiable standard here.

As Georger has stated above, he has known for years (10+ years?) that Captain Scott had told people that he bypassed Portland on the west side and probably flown over Tina Bar.  This same information has come from a number of people other than the ones that Georger cited.

The Malay to Canby bypass only saves about 2 or 3 Nautical Miles in distance flown and at a ground speed of 3 nautical miles per minute this means about 40 seconds to 1 minute in time.  And this time is not large enough to show up in the available data.

Time wise, George Harrison's notes describe the airliner as being "23 DME Nautical Miles" from the Portland VORTAC (now named the Battleground VORTAC) and south of Portland at 8:18 PM PST.  This puts the airliner on the west edge of V-23 if it flew direct from Malay to Canby.  And this also means that the airliner would have a VERY difficult time getting to that point if it was well north of the Portland VORTAC (according to some radar claims) at the claimed 8:13 jump time (which is claimed by some) and stayed on V-23 and the V-23 centerline (as claimed by some).

Three FOIA actions involving the FBI/DOJ/FAA were filed in an attempt to get the unredacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts for the flight south from Seattle.  Two of those actions went directly through my US Congressman's Office and the FBI's Congressional Liaison Office.  The end result was two pieces of paper, which are posted on this site, and which did not provide any useful information related to the flight path.  It should be noted that the information we were seeking was transmitted over regular air traffic control frequencies and could be heard by anyone with a VHF radio receiver.  And quite a few people reportedly did listen in.

The communications between the airliner and NWA were conducted over the ARINC radio system to ARINC ground stations.  From these ground stations, the information to be passed to NWA would be typed into a teletype and then passed over a ground network to the appropriate NWA station.  In the hijacking, a voice communication link was also established so that NWA personnel and the airliner could talk to each other.  The ARINC personnel also sent a teletype version of those conversation over the ground link.  Normally for short conversations it took about two minutes from the time a voice communication was made until ARINC had a teletype version transmitted.  In the case of the "23 DME" transmission, it took four minutes which means that this was probably a longer conversation, other things being equal.

ARINC is a commercial subscription service to the airline industry.  Consequently, I did not ask for their transcripts although some were included in the "FBI Notes" and at other places.  I only asked for the transcripts of the public transmissions that were made over the Federal Air Traffic Control system.

All of the above has been discussed in greater detail over the last several years.

Any suggestions?       


 

As Georger has stated above, he has known for years (10+ years?) that Captain Scott had told people that he bypassed Portland on the west side and probably flown over Tina Bar.  This same information has come from a number of people other than the ones that Georger cited.

and probably flown over Tina Bar. ?   :rofl:

When and where has Georger ever said that ....... or claimed others said that!

This is crazy.  :rofl:   Stop putting words in my mouth and making shit up!

You did not answer Andrade's question: Is there a falsifiable standard to this Western Flight Path? Without it, where does this discussion get us? 

You could start by asking Andrade what he means by: 'falsifiable standard to this Western Flight Path'.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 03:15:03 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2753 on: August 27, 2019, 03:03:30 PM »
I did post this earlier - FROM SNOWMAN! Snowman is not Georger! And nowhere does it say Scott or anyone else claimed 305 flew over Tina Bar.

snowmman

Jul 8, 2008, 7:10 PM
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Scott gave at least one talk (1997) [In reply to]
Quote | Reply

________________________________________
I found this news article about a talk Scott gave in 1997 to a local Aero club where he lived.
(edit)

Scott talks about a makeshift waist pack, with money being transferred to it from the original bag. He wouldn't have seen this. So he's interpreting from something. Tina? This would be interesting if there's any truth to it, as it might mean the money arrived on the ground in something other than the bank bag?

He also mentions that turbulence triggered his exchange with Cooper at 2005? So that's interesting.

Note Scott seemed to like the Lake Merwin LZ idea. Maybe they listened to Scott more than Rataczak?

One who was there tells intriguing tales of DB Cooper
Arizona Daily Star - NewsBank - Jan 21, 1997

After a quarter of a century, D.B. Cooper still packs the house.
Well, to be precise, it was actually pilot William Scott's recent talk at the Aero Club of Arizona - an organization for aviation enthusiasts - that pulled in a standing-room-only crowd.

The Aero Club, which has about 100 members in the Tucson and Green Valley area, presents speakers on everything from the Civil Air Patrol to aerobatic flying.
..
When they reached Seattle, they flew in a holding pattern until Cooper's demands were met. Scott didn't tell the plane's 36 passengers what was happening.

``But I think they got the message when the stewardess came down the aisle with a parachute over her shoulder,'' he added, cracking up the audience.

When the plane landed in Seattle, Cooper released the passengers and two of the stewardesses, collected the loot and the three extra parachutes and told Scott to fly to Mexico. They were to stop in Reno, Nev., to refuel.

``I was happy he negotiated over the phone through Tina (Mucklow, the stewardess),'' Scott said.

Once Cooper got his sack of money, he ordered Scott to fly as low and slowly as possible and drop the back steps.

After cutting up a parachute, he emptied the sack of loot and began stuffing $20 bills into his makeshift waist pack.

When Mucklow expressed astonishment at the huge pile of money, Cooper reached over and handed her a stack of bills.

``We can't take tips,'' she said.

Instructing Mucklow to go forward, he told her to pull the curtain between the first class and coach sections. He said that she was to turn the lights down, and she wasn't to look back.

She joined Scott and the co-pilot in the cockpit. Later, the plane ran into turbulence.

Scott wondered if Cooper was still aboard. Turning on the public address system, he inquired, ``Is everything all right, sir?''

``Yeah, everything is fine,'' Cooper replied.

After a while, Scott noticed that the cabin gauges were fluctuating wildly.

``I thought maybe I'd call him, but I thought maybe I'd just not bother him,'' he said.

In Reno, Scott managed to land the plane with the steps down without damaging aircraft.

Before leaving the plane, he and the crew searched for Cooper's briefcase but were unable to find it.

Cooper had jumped in a business suit and street shoes from the plane, which was traveling about 190 miles an hour at 10,000 feet.

At that altitude the temperature was 7 below zero. Cooper - with 20 pounds of money strapped to his waist - had dropped into some of the most rugged country in the Pacific Northwest.

``There was a big reservoir down there with trees in it,'' Scott said. ``I just thought he went down there and got wrapped up in the trees.''


(This post was edited by snowmman on Jul 8, 2008, 10:06 PM)
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2754 on: August 27, 2019, 03:08:19 PM »
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Is there a falsifiable standard to this Western Flight Path? Without it, where does this discussion get us?

Please explain what you would consider to be a falsifiable standard here.

As Georger has stated above, he has known for years (10+ years?) that Captain Scott had told people that he bypassed Portland on the west side and probably flown over Tina Bar.  This same information has come from a number of people other than the ones that Georger cited.

The Malay to Canby bypass only saves about 2 or 3 Nautical Miles in distance flown and at a ground speed of 3 nautical miles per minute this means about 40 seconds to 1 minute in time.  And this time is not large enough to show up in the available data.

Time wise, George Harrison's notes describe the airliner as being "23 DME Nautical Miles" from the Portland VORTAC (now named the Battleground VORTAC) and south of Portland at 8:18 PM PST.  This puts the airliner on the west edge of V-23 if it flew direct from Malay to Canby.  And this also means that the airliner would have a VERY difficult time getting to that point if it was well north of the Portland VORTAC (according to some radar claims) at the claimed 8:13 jump time (which is claimed by some) and stayed on V-23 and the V-23 centerline (as claimed by some).

Three FOIA actions involving the FBI/DOJ/FAA were filed in an attempt to get the unredacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts for the flight south from Seattle.  Two of those actions went directly through my US Congressman's Office and the FBI's Congressional Liaison Office.  The end result was two pieces of paper, which are posted on this site, and which did not provide any useful information related to the flight path.  It should be noted that the information we were seeking was transmitted over regular air traffic control frequencies and could be heard by anyone with a VHF radio receiver.  And quite a few people reportedly did listen in.

The communications between the airliner and NWA were conducted over the ARINC radio system to ARINC ground stations.  From these ground stations, the information to be passed to NWA would be typed into a teletype and then passed over a ground network to the appropriate NWA station.  In the hijacking, a voice communication link was also established so that NWA personnel and the airliner could talk to each other.  The ARINC personnel also sent a teletype version of those conversation over the ground link.  Normally for short conversations it took about two minutes from the time a voice communication was made until ARINC had a teletype version transmitted.  In the case of the "23 DME" transmission, it took four minutes which means that this was probably a longer conversation, other things being equal.

ARINC is a commercial subscription service to the airline industry.  Consequently, I did not ask for their transcripts although some were included in the "FBI Notes" and at other places.  I only asked for the transcripts of the public transmissions that were made over the Federal Air Traffic Control system.

All of the above has been discussed in greater detail over the last several years.

Any suggestions?       


 

Please explain how your placard analysis serves to articulate a whole flight path? Or even a fraction of a flight path?

How does one point make a whole flight path, or orbit, or trajectory path?  When you have this discovery worked out be sure and tell NASA!

 :chr2:
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2755 on: August 27, 2019, 03:16:19 PM »
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I know for certain that Robert only believes in his own theory and nothing else will ever matter. There’s so much information still out there but Robert actually knows exactly what happened. I will no longer waste my time responding as it will ALWAYS come back to Cooper was a no pull at Tina Bar. How boring and especially since there is no proof to support it except in his mind.
Bruce has a great Tour planned for Nov 24 and it’s free ! I’m not involved but I really think it will be interesting for folks to see the area where all this took place. I hope a lot of Cooperites get aboard ! I’ve read 5 books already about Cooper and might add a few more. I find them all very interesting ! The D B Cooper story is still unsolved in most of our minds and I for one enjoy exploring all the little nicks and crannies.

Not to mention Captain Scott’s daughter appearing and speaking!

Kermit do you know who 'Eric of Portland' was? (a Cooper researcher at Portland circa 2000-8). Whoever he was he claimed to have talked to Scott's family. He reported Scott's family saying 305 flew west of Portland and probably over Tena Bar.

Yes that will be awesome ! I hope there will be a chance to ask her some questions from the audience.

What about this Eric of Portland? Ever run into him or hear about him, in the Cooper context?
No I don’t know this Eric of Portland. Do you have more info on him ?

In the past, Georger has made stronger claims to me than the above about the airliner passing west of Portland.  So judge for yourself what he is doing or trying to do.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2756 on: August 27, 2019, 03:58:04 PM »
Seattle Times March 15 2001:

"Her husband was convinced Cooper died in the leap, said Frances Scott. "He felt he jumped into Lake Merwin (Cowlitz County) and got tangled up in dead trees and died," she said.

On the 25th anniversary of the heist, Mr. Scott spoke to a local pilots club; 200 people showed up, said his wife.

*From all the available testimony it is clear Scott never said anything about Cooper jumping over Tina Bar, landing anywhere other than near or 'in' Lake Merwin, and he never mentioned Tina Bar. Flying on the west side of PDX is irrelevant to where Scott believed Cooper had jumped and died. Scott's wife confirmed those facts.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 04:04:44 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2757 on: August 27, 2019, 04:18:56 PM »
Doubtful any redaction has taken place. even the FBI makes a reference to no chatter on the radio....it's the company log that's needed..
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 04:22:28 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2758 on: August 27, 2019, 04:47:57 PM »
The files in the FBI vault have several pages of one of the transcripts and they redacted them. the photo below shows the FBI file from there website vs the full transcripts we have.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2759 on: August 27, 2019, 04:53:02 PM »
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Doubtful any redaction has taken place. even the FBI makes a reference to no chatter on the radio....it's the company log that's needed..

What is a "company log"?  The Harrison papers are notes taken during the actual hijacking.  What we need are the complete Seattle ATC radio transcripts for the flight south and the missing ARINC teletype transcripts that went to the Seattle NWA office.