Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 165753 times)

Offline Kermit

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2205 on: June 10, 2019, 10:07:53 PM »
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Keeping the lights out in the air makes the jet much more difficult to see from a trailing jet. Also, it doesn't give away his jump time by virtue of the back stairs lowering and the light from the cabin shining out the back.

Cooper wanted everything in place in Seattle by 5PM. In other words, he wanted to land in Seattle by shortly after 5PM.

Sunset in Seattle on November 24, 1971 was 4:25PM.
.

I agree completely. This whole crime is very tactical.

Two people had an almost visceral fear or dislike of Cooper right from the start: Rataczak and Himms. Both have strong tactical backgrounds not just in their training but personality-wise. Type A personalities.  They may have sensed 'this guy is competing on our level, and is therefore serious and dangerous!' Didnt Rataczak make the comment to the effect: 'This guy must have the manual back there!'. Rataczak thought the best thing to do was to 'take this guy out over the ocean'! Some of these sentiments may have been conveyed to Nyrop when he ordered "full cooperation".  The FAA psychiatrist took it even further is his assessment of Cooper!!  >:D He basically advised that the hijacker might be blood thirsty and ready to go to extremes ... (thankfully he was wrong?)

I still believe there is a very high probability Cooper was armed. I dont think he was flying by the seat of his pants but had backup. Its the tactical thing to do. Cooper behaved as if he had a very high level of confidence. He allowed the refueling to drag out after initially setting a limit on time on the ground, he allowed Hancock to simply walk back on the plane to get her purse!, and he allowed several other openings which people could have taken advantage of. A tactical military unit would have taken advantage of any opening the hijacker gave. But nobody did! Everyone followed Nyrop's orders...
This is one of the best posts I have ever seen on this forum ! Yes I am quite sure Cooper was armed. I’ve hunted and fished with these type of people most of my life. They come prepared and plan ahead. I’ve said before that most likely Cooper had both an altimiter and compass with him. We know for a fact that he had a knife and why wouldn’t he have a gun also. I have always felt certain he carried a number of other essentials in the bag he brought along. This is a guy who knew exactly what he wanted and was very annoyed when his orders,weren’t obeyed. The arrival of the money in a bank bag was NOT what he asked for and of course created some problems.
The games they were playing with the refueling was of course irratating him also. I feel Cooper researched out pretty much every aspect of this caper and was not a happy camper when his orders were ignored. Somewhere along the line I feel Cooper was in the military as his discipline seems obvious. Unlike Georger however, I think Cooper acted alone. This type of guy doesn’t like to deal with unknowns ! JMHO

I have never said he wasnt acting alone. I dont know of anything in the record that indicates he had an accomplice or was acting with others ... I tend to agree with you Kermit. This type of guy doesn’t like to deal with unknowns .. the issue would be 'control'.
My bad as I misread your “ backup “ meaning so we are on the same page.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2206 on: June 10, 2019, 11:34:45 PM »
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Keeping the lights out in the air makes the jet much more difficult to see from a trailing jet. Also, it doesn't give away his jump time by virtue of the back stairs lowering and the light from the cabin shining out the back.

Cooper wanted everything in place in Seattle by 5PM. In other words, he wanted to land in Seattle by shortly after 5PM.

Sunset in Seattle on November 24, 1971 was 4:25PM.
.

I agree completely. This whole crime is very tactical.

Two people had an almost visceral fear or dislike of Cooper right from the start: Rataczak and Himms. Both have strong tactical backgrounds not just in their training but personality-wise. Type A personalities.  They may have sensed 'this guy is competing on our level, and is therefore serious and dangerous!' Didnt Rataczak make the comment to the effect: 'This guy must have the manual back there!'. Rataczak thought the best thing to do was to 'take this guy out over the ocean'! Some of these sentiments may have been conveyed to Nyrop when he ordered "full cooperation".  The FAA psychiatrist took it even further is his assessment of Cooper!!  >:D He basically advised that the hijacker might be blood thirsty and ready to go to extremes ... (thankfully he was wrong?)

I still believe there is a very high probability Cooper was armed. I dont think he was flying by the seat of his pants but had backup. Its the tactical thing to do. Cooper behaved as if he had a very high level of confidence. He allowed the refueling to drag out after initially setting a limit on time on the ground, he allowed Hancock to simply walk back on the plane to get her purse!, and he allowed several other openings which people could have taken advantage of. A tactical military unit would have taken advantage of any opening the hijacker gave. But nobody did! Everyone followed Nyrop's orders...
This is one of the best posts I have ever seen on this forum ! Yes I am quite sure Cooper was armed. I’ve hunted and fished with these type of people most of my life. They come prepared and plan ahead. I’ve said before that most likely Cooper had both an altimiter and compass with him. We know for a fact that he had a knife and why wouldn’t he have a gun also. I have always felt certain he carried a number of other essentials in the bag he brought along. This is a guy who knew exactly what he wanted and was very annoyed when his orders,weren’t obeyed. The arrival of the money in a bank bag was NOT what he asked for and of course created some problems.
The games they were playing with the refueling was of course irratating him also. I feel Cooper researched out pretty much every aspect of this caper and was not a happy camper when his orders were ignored. Somewhere along the line I feel Cooper was in the military as his discipline seems obvious. Unlike Georger however, I think Cooper acted alone. This type of guy doesn’t like to deal with unknowns ! JMHO

I have never said he wasnt acting alone. I dont know of anything in the record that indicates he had an accomplice or was acting with others ... I tend to agree with you Kermit. This type of guy doesn’t like to deal with unknowns .. the issue would be 'control'.
My bad as I misread your “ backup “ meaning so we are on the same page.

no  problem ...  8)
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2207 on: June 11, 2019, 05:12:50 AM »
Hag believed he had help.       Trying to put aside my own bias, I think the sophistication of the planning tends to support the idea of more than one person. (you know, two heads are better than one).        Touching back on several points (very good ones I believe), I also believe he probably had some type of sidearm on him. Hag was guessing a snub nosed .38 or a .22 caliber derringer.        A very good point about the lights and his night vision. Could another reason for the lights out be that it makes it easier to see the lights on the ground? (maybe looking for Merwin Dam lights or such?)            I also believe this wasn't his first rodeo. It's too hard to believe a one time criminal would have been able to pull this off. Too much planning, too sophisticated in my opinion.       Also one more thing, he had to have known it would it was going to be dark when he jumped based on his five a-clock demand don't you think? Doesn't jumping in the dark indicate a fairly skilled sky diver?
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2208 on: June 11, 2019, 05:52:59 AM »
One other thought, maybe he planned to jump just after dark knowing he would have until morning before they could start looking for him. His lack of fear of jumping at night into possible trees or water is telling in my opinion. Maybe he had a death wish or he was that confident in his abilities?
 

Online Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2209 on: June 11, 2019, 01:27:16 PM »
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One other thought, maybe he planned to jump just after dark knowing he would have until morning before they could start looking for him. His lack of fear of jumping at night into possible trees or water is telling in my opinion. Maybe he had a death wish or he was that confident in his abilities?

He had to be planning a night jump since sunset was well before the 5:00PM time he specified for having the money at SEATAC.  And since there were heavy clouds in the Seattle area that evening, it would be very dark just a few minutes after sunset.

On the subject of "fear", Cooper told Tina that he had some pills for the crew if they started getting tired.  So maybe Cooper's lack of fear also came from a pill.  And the mention of pills in this context suggests to me that Cooper had previous experience using them either in the military or such activities as long distance truck driving.   
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2210 on: June 11, 2019, 05:58:48 PM »
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Cooper told Tina that he had some pills for the crew if they started getting tired.

Is there some way to verify whether this actually happened? Is this in a 302 somewhere?

This strikes me as exceptionally odd and naive if it's true. Obviously the crew is not going to ingest a pill from a skyjacker while commanding an airliner. If Cooper actually considered this a possibility it is remarkably bizarre. It appears to run contrary to what we know about Cooper. I'm inclined to think this is not accurate.
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Online Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2211 on: June 11, 2019, 10:48:10 PM »
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Cooper told Tina that he had some pills for the crew if they started getting tired.

Is there some way to verify whether this actually happened? Is this in a 302 somewhere?

This strikes me as exceptionally odd and naive if it's true. Obviously the crew is not going to ingest a pill from a skyjacker while commanding an airliner. If Cooper actually considered this a possibility it is remarkably bizarre. It appears to run contrary to what we know about Cooper. I'm inclined to think this is not accurate.

See Richard T. Tosaw's book, "D.B. Cooper - Dead or Alive", ISBN 0-9609016-1-2, 1984, page 31.  The very last sentence at the bottom of that page reads as follows:

"Tina told Cooper that she was concerned about the crew getting tired on the long trip, but Cooper told her, 'Don't worry, I've got some pills that will keep them awake.' "

This statement was made during the time the airliner was on the ground in Seattle.  And I don't remember seeing it anywhere else.

Tosaw was a California lawyer who had been an FBI agent for five years before setting up his legal practice.  He spent a significant amount of money searching in the Columbia River just off shore from Tina Bar.  He interviewed many of the principals in the matter including the Ingram family and apparently talked to Tina at length. 

I recommend that everyone get a copy of this book, if possible, since it contains things that apparently were not included in the FBI investigation paper work. 
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2212 on: June 12, 2019, 09:01:56 AM »
I've heard the pills mentioned in passing but was uncertain where this came from.

If Tosaw is the only source I'm not sure what to make of it. Tosaw was likely wrong when he mentioned that Tina saw DBC pull out the parachute packing card (377 considers this a huge tell if it is true).

However, Tosaw was the first to mention the NB6 publicly from what I can tell--this  back in 1984.

All of this said, the pill comment, if true, is very remarkable if it is true.
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2213 on: June 12, 2019, 03:27:53 PM »
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I've heard the pills mentioned in passing but was uncertain where this came from.

If Tosaw is the only source I'm not sure what to make of it. Tosaw was likely wrong when he mentioned that Tina saw DBC pull out the parachute packing card (377 considers this a huge tell if it is true).

However, Tosaw was the first to mention the NB6 publicly from what I can tell--this  back in 1984.

All of this said, the pill comment, if true, is very remarkable if it is true.

Why all the superlatives! Its just a factoid that is true or not true - nothing more. Tosaw was reknowned for being a showman and gaming the system - he did that in every project he worked on or invented. He blew things out of proportion before doing research and placed his own interests above the needs of others ... his departure from the FBI may not have been friendly.

Either the things he said were true, or not. That is the only issue at stake!  :rofl: 
 
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Online Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2214 on: June 12, 2019, 04:18:44 PM »
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I've heard the pills mentioned in passing but was uncertain where this came from.

If Tosaw is the only source I'm not sure what to make of it. Tosaw was likely wrong when he mentioned that Tina saw DBC pull out the parachute packing card (377 considers this a huge tell if it is true).

However, Tosaw was the first to mention the NB6 publicly from what I can tell--this  back in 1984.

All of this said, the pill comment, if true, is very remarkable if it is true.

Why all the superlatives! Its just a factoid that is true or not true - nothing more. Tosaw was reknowned for being a showman and gaming the system - he did that in every project he worked on or invented. He blew things out of proportion before doing research and placed his own interests above the needs of others ... his departure from the FBI may not have been friendly.

Either the things he said were true, or not. That is the only issue at stake!  :rofl:

For what its worth, here are a couple of other things of note that Tosaw quotes Tina as saying.

Tina reportedly said that Cooper took out a pocket knife to cut the shroud lines of the chest pack that was left on the airliner.  It is a given that Cooper had to be carrying a pocket knife since there was nothing else on that airplane that he could use to cut those lines.  You can forget about using the meal service cutlery, if there was even any on the plane at that point, since it had a hard time cutting melted butter in any event.  And there were nothing else on board that Cooper could have used.

Tina is also reported as having said that Cooper opened the sage green military back parachute and examined the nylon panels and shroud line.  It is highly unlikely that this happened since he would have had to pull the ripcord and then repack the parachute after his examination.  Even if Cooper was a parachute rigger, he would have had a very hard time repacking that chute in the back of the cabin.

 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2215 on: June 23, 2019, 03:17:08 AM »
Skyjack mentions pills, too.
 

Offline foxmanb

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2216 on: June 24, 2019, 08:10:35 AM »
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Tina reportedly said that Cooper took out a pocket knife to cut the shroud lines of the chest pack that was left on the airliner.  It is a given that Cooper had to be carrying a pocket knife since there was nothing else on that airplane that he could use to cut those lines.  You can forget about using the meal service cutlery, if there was even any on the plane at that point, since it had a hard time cutting melted butter in any event.  And there were nothing else on board that Cooper could have used.

I've always wondered, in order to cut the shroud lines, he would have had to handle them, Perhaps wrapping them around his hand and pulling them tight before cutting, have these shroud lines ever been tested for epithelial cells? I'm sure they have been handled by many people through the years, there would be multiple cells from multiple people. but perhaps Cooper's are still hanging around somewhere.
 

Online Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2217 on: June 24, 2019, 01:07:08 PM »
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Tina reportedly said that Cooper took out a pocket knife to cut the shroud lines of the chest pack that was left on the airliner.  It is a given that Cooper had to be carrying a pocket knife since there was nothing else on that airplane that he could use to cut those lines.  You can forget about using the meal service cutlery, if there was even any on the plane at that point, since it had a hard time cutting melted butter in any event.  And there were nothing else on board that Cooper could have used.

I've always wondered, in order to cut the shroud lines, he would have had to handle them, Perhaps wrapping them around his hand and pulling them tight before cutting, have these shroud lines ever been tested for epithelial cells? I'm sure they have been handled by many people through the years, there would be multiple cells from multiple people. but perhaps Cooper's are still hanging around somewhere.

To cut the shroud lines requires a really sharp knife.  They are specially constructed multi-layer lines and not just "ropes".  The best way to cut one is to form a "U" with the line and then insert the knife in that "U" and pull.

So it is possible that Cooper left some epithelial cells on the stubs at the end of the lines that remain attached to the canopy and the harness.  Personally, I think this would be worth checking into.  I doubt if it would be very expensive (relatively speaking) and the DNA people can now work wonders with amounts of DNA that are not visible to the naked eye.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2218 on: June 24, 2019, 01:42:10 PM »
HIS POST:
So it is possible that Cooper left some epithelial cells on the stubs at the end of the lines


Typically, touch STR typing is known to require approximately 70–150 cells to produce a viable DNA profile. But since you cant chew gum and type at the same time you will ignore this and 'play the epithelial mantra again Sam'.

Its like people who cook everything they eat in one 10" pan!

Blevins is watching - must go!   :rofl:

PS: R99 you screwed up the formatting again! oh well ...
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 01:46:53 PM by georger »
 

Online Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2219 on: June 24, 2019, 02:16:57 PM »
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HIS POST:
So it is possible that Cooper left some epithelial cells on the stubs at the end of the lines


Typically, touch STR typing is known to require approximately 70–150 cells to produce a viable DNA profile. But since you cant chew gum and type at the same time you will ignore this and 'play the epithelial mantra again Sam'.

Its like people who cook everything they eat in one 10" pan!

Blevins is watching - must go!   :rofl:

PS: R99 you screwed up the formatting again! oh well ...

First, I don't have anything to do with the formatting.  So I would suggest that you just look in a mirror to start your search for the culprit.

Secondly, I suggest that we leave the DNA analysis to people who actually know what they are talking about.  And that does not include you or me.  If there is sufficient DNA on a car door handle, for instance, to provide meaningful data, and there is, then there should be sufficient DNA on the shroud lines and other parts of the remaining chest pack to make the effort worthwhile.

Thirdly, why are you suddenly disparaging DNA analysis?  Are you afraid that DNA might prove that Cooper didn't live in Montana as you seem to believe?