Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 150307 times)

Offline Robert99

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
  • Thanked: 15 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2145 on: May 13, 2019, 12:47:15 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Now I've got a very difficult question that I want to direct to that icon of internet civility, GEORGER.

Here it goes:

What does an incorrect FBI flight path look like?

Perhaps...not finding anything along that flight path after 47 years? How about...the evidence that is found after 47 years is way off the flight path? Hmmmm...

What say you GEORGER? What exactly does an incorrect FBI flight path look like?

Answer: Any flight path that isnt based on some well documented data. In this case any flight path that is outside V23 and has Cooper landing in Montana or Lima Peru!

BTW, when will it dawn on you you don't need a west path to get the money bundles to Tina Bar! That was already known clear back in 1980 when the Palmer Rpt listed all of the likely options, of which there were four!

What and where are the "well documented data" for the FBI flight path?  You also don't need an east flight path for the money to get to Tina Bar.

 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 957
  • Thanked: 96 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2146 on: May 13, 2019, 12:48:12 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

All metaphors aside - as a historical note, literally nobody jumped up and suggested the flight path be moved after the money find in 1980; only Himmelsbach tried that in recommending the plane had flown down the Washougal and the Washougal was responsible for money being on Tina Bar!

So 99 you are now in the same boat with Himmelsbach, only in the reverse direction.  History tends to repeat itself.

I suppose it's better to ignore any and all new evidence and continue to drink the Kool-Aid.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline fcastle866

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 92
  • Thanked: 34 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2147 on: May 13, 2019, 01:25:36 AM »
This whole flight path discussion reminds me of Kevin Costner (Jim Garrison) in JFK.  By creating doubt that Oswald could have gotten off 3 shots in less than 6 seconds, Jim Garrison determined that there had to be a second gunman, and therefore a conspiracy, and then he said the conspiracy had to be big (Mafia, Cuba, CIA, etc.).  That's what this is, creating doubt to advance a theory. 

Oswald likely took all the shots.  Flight 305 likely flew on or near the FBI flight path.  But if Flight 305 was off the flight path some, it does not make for some huge downstream effect.  The FBI had a pretty good handle on the case, and we still don't know everything they did or all the evidence they have.  So I tend to believe they are generally correct.  If the flight path is a little off, then what does it mean?  It does not mean that the FBI was wrong about everything. 

This is arguing for the sake of arguing, to find some tiny flaw and therefore invalidate an entire process.  This is just like the money find topic a few months ago.  What's next, the tie?  Flight 305 took off from Portland, it landed in Seattle, it flew to Reno.  Somewhere around 8:12 PM, just north of Portland, D.B. Cooper jumped out.  If the North Vietnamese could shoot down our fighters in 1971, then I think American technology could figure out where a passenger airplane was between Seattle and Portland.

What do you hope to gain by disproving the current flight path theory?  To prove that there were inconsistencies in the investigation? Of course there were.  People can't even agree on what color his suit jacket was.  When does this stop?  Maybe he took $500,000.  Maybe he was a she, like in the Barb Dayton theory.  Maybe the flight crew was in on it.  Maybe the plane flew over Cle Elum.  Nothing is ever 100% for certain.   

Any chance we can start a new topic so there is interest in coming back here to read up on the case?  I'd rather hear from you guys about the case than have to read 302's.
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812, georger

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 957
  • Thanked: 96 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2148 on: May 13, 2019, 01:53:53 AM »
It sounds as if we're in the same spot we have been all along. That is to say, R99 and I think the FBI flight path is fatally flawed. Everyone else, the FBI flight path is essentially accurate.

I feel as if we have stated our case quite well. I'm sure others feel they have stated their case well too. Therefore, I agree, there is probably little to be gained by going much further with it all.

Someone is right. Someone is wrong.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
  • Thanked: 99 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2149 on: May 13, 2019, 01:24:34 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It sounds as if we're in the same spot we have been all along. That is to say, R99 and I think the FBI flight path is fatally flawed. Everyone else, the FBI flight path is essentially accurate.

I feel as if we have stated our case quite well. I'm sure others feel they have stated their case well too. Therefore, I agree, there is probably little to be gained by going much further with it all.

Someone is right. Someone is wrong.

There is somethin wrong with you, boy! Yous have anger management issues - 
 

Offline Robert99

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
  • Thanked: 15 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2150 on: May 13, 2019, 01:30:48 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It sounds as if we're in the same spot we have been all along. That is to say, R99 and I think the FBI flight path is fatally flawed. Everyone else, the FBI flight path is essentially accurate.

I feel as if we have stated our case quite well. I'm sure others feel they have stated their case well too. Therefore, I agree, there is probably little to be gained by going much further with it all.

Someone is right. Someone is wrong.

There is somethin wrong with you, boy! Yous have anger management issues -

Anger management issues?  Where does this claim come from?  Fcastle866 would probably put that claim in the same category as the Garrison claims about the JFK matter.

Georger, you are free to dream on.
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
  • Thanked: 99 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2151 on: May 13, 2019, 04:00:50 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This whole flight path discussion reminds me of Kevin Costner (Jim Garrison) in JFK.  By creating doubt that Oswald could have gotten off 3 shots in less than 6 seconds, Jim Garrison determined that there had to be a second gunman, and therefore a conspiracy, and then he said the conspiracy had to be big (Mafia, Cuba, CIA, etc.).  That's what this is, creating doubt to advance a theory. 

Oswald likely took all the shots.  Flight 305 likely flew on or near the FBI flight path.  But if Flight 305 was off the flight path some, it does not make for some huge downstream effect.  The FBI had a pretty good handle on the case, and we still don't know everything they did or all the evidence they have.  So I tend to believe they are generally correct.  If the flight path is a little off, then what does it mean?  It does not mean that the FBI was wrong about everything. 

This is arguing for the sake of arguing, to find some tiny flaw and therefore invalidate an entire process.  This is just like the money find topic a few months ago.  What's next, the tie?  Flight 305 took off from Portland, it landed in Seattle, it flew to Reno.  Somewhere around 8:12 PM, just north of Portland, D.B. Cooper jumped out.  If the North Vietnamese could shoot down our fighters in 1971, then I think American technology could figure out where a passenger airplane was between Seattle and Portland.

What do you hope to gain by disproving the current flight path theory?  To prove that there were inconsistencies in the investigation? Of course there were.  People can't even agree on what color his suit jacket was.  When does this stop?  Maybe he took $500,000.  Maybe he was a she, like in the Barb Dayton theory.  Maybe the flight crew was in on it.  Maybe the plane flew over Cle Elum.  Nothing is ever 100% for certain.   

Any chance we can start a new topic so there is interest in coming back here to read up on the case?  I'd rather hear from you guys about the case than have to read 302's.

There are many THREADS at this forum. Conversaton in one thread (flight path issues) does not have to dominate the whole forum - other threads can be tapped by anyone at any time. At the present time Ulis and R99 are dominating the flight path thread - nothing anyone can do about that. It is what it is, but other threads are available to anyone registered here. Thats my 2 cents worth.

I personally try to avoid the Ulis thread, like the plague, so I dont comment much there.  :)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 05:52:19 PM by georger »
 

Offline andrade1812

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 423
  • Thanked: 37 times
    • My Website
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2152 on: May 13, 2019, 07:37:16 PM »
Robert--My point about the map is to simply say that any 2D rendering of a 3D event won't perfectly reflect the event (theoretical models of a hologram universe aside) and I was trying to show how ridiculous radical skepticism (in this case, and elsewhere) can be. I am well aware of your criticisms of the FBI map and have taken them seriously (seriously enough to include them in my book as a plausible explanation for Tina Bar). I also supported, a couple of years ago now, searching Caterpillar Island and other areas associated with your theory with a cadaver dog. I even suggested such a segment for a TV show to a producer.

I'll even admit that I struggle with the placard find, but that my personal opinion on the matter is that the wind was coming more directly from the south than what appears in our limited measurements. I could be wrong.

Regardless...

I don't need the flight path to be in V-23. I don't have a theory or a suspect that requires an alternate flight path. I don't need to put a dead Cooper near a culvert upstream of Tina Bar. I don't need a living Cooper to land in Ridgefield NWR. In my mind, the explanatory power of R99's flight path helps us *only if* the money wasn't found in the dredge later. Unfortunately, I think the money was found in the dredge layer and that eradicates the explanatory power of the theory, and thus the need for the theory.

I wish we had the radar tapes, or a print out of the data, or a photo of the radar screen. We got a hand-drawn map that was handled by a bunch of people, one of who played connect-the-dots and obscured the original plots. If that's all that's left of the radar data, so be it.

If you look at satellite photos of the areas where we think the jump took place, there are fewer and fewer places to look regardless of where you move the flight path. So knowing the *real* flight path is less and less useful to finding evidence of Cooper on the ground. Either Cooper took everything with him, or it all washed out with his body into the Pacific.
 

Offline Robert99

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
  • Thanked: 15 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2153 on: May 13, 2019, 09:40:25 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Robert--My point about the map is to simply say that any 2D rendering of a 3D event won't perfectly reflect the event (theoretical models of a hologram universe aside) and I was trying to show how ridiculous radical skepticism (in this case, and elsewhere) can be. I am well aware of your criticisms of the FBI map and have taken them seriously (seriously enough to include them in my book as a plausible explanation for Tina Bar). I also supported, a couple of years ago now, searching Caterpillar Island and other areas associated with your theory with a cadaver dog. I even suggested such a segment for a TV show to a producer.

I'll even admit that I struggle with the placard find, but that my personal opinion on the matter is that the wind was coming more directly from the south than what appears in our limited measurements. I could be wrong.

Regardless...

I don't need the flight path to be in V-23. I don't have a theory or a suspect that requires an alternate flight path. I don't need to put a dead Cooper near a culvert upstream of Tina Bar. I don't need a living Cooper to land in Ridgefield NWR. In my mind, the explanatory power of R99's flight path helps us *only if* the money wasn't found in the dredge later. Unfortunately, I think the money was found in the dredge layer and that eradicates the explanatory power of the theory, and thus the need for the theory.

I wish we had the radar tapes, or a print out of the data, or a photo of the radar screen. We got a hand-drawn map that was handled by a bunch of people, one of who played connect-the-dots and obscured the original plots. If that's all that's left of the radar data, so be it.

If you look at satellite photos of the areas where we think the jump took place, there are fewer and fewer places to look regardless of where you move the flight path. So knowing the *real* flight path is less and less useful to finding evidence of Cooper on the ground. Either Cooper took everything with him, or it all washed out with his body into the Pacific.

Andrade,

It is my understanding that the money at Tina Bar was NOT found in the dredge layer.

Only two pieces of evidence have been found on the ground (the money and the placard) and both invalidate the FBI flight path.

I think it was the late Carlos Castaneda (his name comes to mind but it probably wasn't him) that wrote a book about the Seven Golden Cities of Cibola (or some such thing) and people who were searching for them.  At the conclusion of the book (page 121 comes to mind for some reason) the author concluded that the golden cities were a myth but that the people who were searching for them had found a beautiful valley to search for their dreams.

The above also seems to apply to the Cooper matter.  But if you really want to find Cooper you are going to have to determine the actual flight path.  Otherwise, just find a beautiful location to search and dream on.
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 957
  • Thanked: 96 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2154 on: May 13, 2019, 09:42:17 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I don't need a living Cooper to land in Ridgefield NWR.

I've read this type of comment a few times referencing Sheridan Peterson. Why do I need DBC to have landed anywhere near Tena Bar to be right about Sheridan Peterson? The answer is, I don't.

My Ridgefield NWR theory doesn't apply to any specific suspect other than one who survived.

The dredge theory is a non-starter. Want a test: Put three packets of cash on the beach and see how long it takes to self-bury. It will never happen.

This is what would have been required given the dredge spreading stopped 400 feet short of the money find spot. Not to mention, rubber bands cannot survive in an outdoor environment more than 6 months according to Tom Kaye's testing. The dredge was in August 1974, nearly 3 years after 11/24/71. The science does not support the dredge theory. The money was buried by human intervention.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline andrade1812

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 423
  • Thanked: 37 times
    • My Website
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2155 on: May 13, 2019, 11:05:05 PM »
Robert

Quote
"It is my understanding that the money at Tina Bar was NOT found in the dredge layer."

It is my understanding the sand layer is still in dispute. Or maybe I'm misreading the 5,000 posts on the topic.

Quote
"the golden cities were a myth but that the people who were searching for them had found a beautiful valley to search for their dreams."

That made me smile, thank you :)

Eric

Quote
"Why do I need DBC to have landed anywhere near Tena Bar to be right about Sheridan Peterson? The answer is, I don't."

And this is why I am so bemused at your adamant support of a flight path that does nothing for your hypothesis.

Quote
"Put three packets of cash on the beach and see how long it takes to self-bury. It will never happen."

265,000 cubic yards of dredge spoils suggests to me it doesn't need to self bury.

Quote
" the dredge spreading stopped 400 feet short of the money find spot."

I thought it was 200ft? Regardless, the dredge piles extended far beyond the two bumps we see in those photos. Here's the math: 265,000 cubic yards divided evenly between two 50' radius piles... Perfect cylinders would be 50 feet high! According to my handy Pocket Reference, a 265' Diameter pile o'stuff that is 100 feet (!) tall contains 68,300 cubic yards of material. Two of these giant piles only gives up half the actual amount of spoils that were deposited on Tina Bar in '74.  A perfect rectangle, 100 feet wide and twenty feet deep, would have to span 1800 feet EVEN IF IT LOST HALF the total yardage of the spoils. I don't know what kind of distances we're actually talking about and I don't know enough about dredging to say how to calculate how much area was covered by this operation. But these operations are *huge* and there's plenty of material to get 400' away from that northern bump.

According to the Pocket Reference, the angle of repose for wet sand is 40 degrees. So, you're welcome to do your own math.

Anyway, thanks guys, I really do appreciate being here and talking the case with y'all.
 

Offline Robert99

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
  • Thanked: 15 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2156 on: May 13, 2019, 11:28:47 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Robert

Quote
"It is my understanding that the money at Tina Bar was NOT found in the dredge layer."

It is my understanding the sand layer is still in dispute. Or maybe I'm misreading the 5,000 posts on the topic.

Quote
"the golden cities were a myth but that the people who were searching for them had found a beautiful valley to search for their dreams."

That made me smile, thank you :)

Eric

Quote
"Why do I need DBC to have landed anywhere near Tena Bar to be right about Sheridan Peterson? The answer is, I don't."

And this is why I am so bemused at your adamant support of a flight path that does nothing for your hypothesis.

Quote
"Put three packets of cash on the beach and see how long it takes to self-bury. It will never happen."

265,000 cubic yards of dredge spoils suggests to me it doesn't need to self bury.

Quote
" the dredge spreading stopped 400 feet short of the money find spot."

I thought it was 200ft? Regardless, the dredge piles extended far beyond the two bumps we see in those photos. Here's the math: 265,000 cubic yards divided evenly between two 50' radius piles... Perfect cylinders would be 50 feet high! According to my handy Pocket Reference, a 265' Diameter pile o'stuff that is 100 feet (!) tall contains 68,300 cubic yards of material. Two of these giant piles only gives up half the actual amount of spoils that were deposited on Tina Bar in '74.  A perfect rectangle, 100 feet wide and twenty feet deep, would have to span 1800 feet EVEN IF IT LOST HALF the total yardage of the spoils. I don't know what kind of distances we're actually talking about and I don't know enough about dredging to say how to calculate how much area was covered by this operation. But these operations are *huge* and there's plenty of material to get 400' away from that northern bump.

According to the Pocket Reference, the angle of repose for wet sand is 40 degrees. So, you're welcome to do your own math.

Anyway, thanks guys, I really do appreciate being here and talking the case with y'all.

Andrade,

Where did you get this 265,000 cubic yards number?  For comparison, the volume of Hoover Dam is 3,250,000 cubic yards.

The nominal water level of the Columbia River at Tina Bar is about 5 feet above sea level (ASL).  The highest land point in the immediate money find location at Tina Bar is only about 25 or 30 feet ASL.  In 2013, Dr. Meyer Louie and I were at Tina Bar and a local fisherman told us he had been there just about ever day for the past 50 years (he also had the key to the Tina Bar gate) and that he had never seen any flow from the river into the cow pond or vice-versa.  This means that the river water level was never more than about 25 feet ASL.

I would suggest that you divide you 265,000 cubic yards by about 1000 to get a realistic number.
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
  • Thanked: 99 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2157 on: May 13, 2019, 11:34:01 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Robert

Quote
"It is my understanding that the money at Tina Bar was NOT found in the dredge layer."

It is my understanding the sand layer is still in dispute. Or maybe I'm misreading the 5,000 posts on the topic.

Quote
"the golden cities were a myth but that the people who were searching for them had found a beautiful valley to search for their dreams."

That made me smile, thank you :)

Eric

Quote
"Why do I need DBC to have landed anywhere near Tena Bar to be right about Sheridan Peterson? The answer is, I don't."

And this is why I am so bemused at your adamant support of a flight path that does nothing for your hypothesis.

Quote
"Put three packets of cash on the beach and see how long it takes to self-bury. It will never happen."

265,000 cubic yards of dredge spoils suggests to me it doesn't need to self bury.

Quote
" the dredge spreading stopped 400 feet short of the money find spot."

I thought it was 200ft? Regardless, the dredge piles extended far beyond the two bumps we see in those photos. Here's the math: 265,000 cubic yards divided evenly between two 50' radius piles... Perfect cylinders would be 50 feet high! According to my handy Pocket Reference, a 265' Diameter pile o'stuff that is 100 feet (!) tall contains 68,300 cubic yards of material. Two of these giant piles only gives up half the actual amount of spoils that were deposited on Tina Bar in '74.  A perfect rectangle, 100 feet wide and twenty feet deep, would have to span 1800 feet EVEN IF IT LOST HALF the total yardage of the spoils. I don't know what kind of distances we're actually talking about and I don't know enough about dredging to say how to calculate how much area was covered by this operation. But these operations are *huge* and there's plenty of material to get 400' away from that northern bump.

According to the Pocket Reference, the angle of repose for wet sand is 40 degrees. So, you're welcome to do your own math.

Anyway, thanks guys, I really do appreciate being here and talking the case with y'all.

Let's clear a few things up.

1. R99 says 'the money' (find) conflicts with the FBI flight path. How? That claim is nonsense. The FBI fp crosses the Columbia. The fact is the flight path has no proven relationship to the money find!
2. Palmer said the money was not in the dredging layer. TK disputes that. His explanation is on his site. 
3. Static measurements of the distance between the money find and the dredging spoils is probably pointless and wrong. For one thing it doesnt tell the whole story! It fails to consider the mobile nature of those spoils over time, and erosion and movement of eroded materials - in the general direction of flow which is directly toward the money find location. These static distances people keep coming up with are absurd in terms of the reality of flow of materials on sandbars along the Columbia, always in the direction of flow from south to north on that river.
4, All of these claims people peddle avoid the money itself, the condition of the money, the chemistry of the money analysis, and the story the money itself tells. This is literally tantamount to people looking at a dead body scene in some street, without even examining the body! Its crazy and ridiculous on its face.     
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
  • Thanked: 99 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2158 on: May 13, 2019, 11:36:51 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Robert

Quote
"It is my understanding that the money at Tina Bar was NOT found in the dredge layer."

It is my understanding the sand layer is still in dispute. Or maybe I'm misreading the 5,000 posts on the topic.

Quote
"the golden cities were a myth but that the people who were searching for them had found a beautiful valley to search for their dreams."

That made me smile, thank you :)

Eric

Quote
"Why do I need DBC to have landed anywhere near Tena Bar to be right about Sheridan Peterson? The answer is, I don't."

And this is why I am so bemused at your adamant support of a flight path that does nothing for your hypothesis.

Quote
"Put three packets of cash on the beach and see how long it takes to self-bury. It will never happen."

265,000 cubic yards of dredge spoils suggests to me it doesn't need to self bury.

Quote
" the dredge spreading stopped 400 feet short of the money find spot."

I thought it was 200ft? Regardless, the dredge piles extended far beyond the two bumps we see in those photos. Here's the math: 265,000 cubic yards divided evenly between two 50' radius piles... Perfect cylinders would be 50 feet high! According to my handy Pocket Reference, a 265' Diameter pile o'stuff that is 100 feet (!) tall contains 68,300 cubic yards of material. Two of these giant piles only gives up half the actual amount of spoils that were deposited on Tina Bar in '74.  A perfect rectangle, 100 feet wide and twenty feet deep, would have to span 1800 feet EVEN IF IT LOST HALF the total yardage of the spoils. I don't know what kind of distances we're actually talking about and I don't know enough about dredging to say how to calculate how much area was covered by this operation. But these operations are *huge* and there's plenty of material to get 400' away from that northern bump.

According to the Pocket Reference, the angle of repose for wet sand is 40 degrees. So, you're welcome to do your own math.

Anyway, thanks guys, I really do appreciate being here and talking the case with y'all.

Andrade,

Where did you get this 265,000 cubic yards number?  For comparison, the volume of Hoover Dam is 3,250,000 cubic yards.

The nominal water level of the Columbia River at Tina Bar is about 5 feet above sea level (ASL).  The highest land point in the immediate money find location at Tina Bar is only about 25 or 30 feet ASL.  In 2013, Dr. Meyer Louie and I were at Tina Bar and a local fisherman told us he had been there just about ever day for the past 50 years (he also had the key to the Tina Bar gate) and that he had never seen any flow from the river into the cow pond or vice-versa.  This means that the river water level was never more than about 25 feet ASL.

I would suggest that you divide you 265,000 cubic yards by about 1000 to get a realistic number.

Quote from the Bechly report: "This material was deposited on the beach area of the FAZIO Brothers’ Farm between August 19 through the 25th, 1974, ‘and consisted of 91,100 cubic yards of fill."
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline andrade1812

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 423
  • Thanked: 37 times
    • My Website
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2159 on: May 13, 2019, 11:38:00 PM »
Got it from Flyjack, who posted it (somewhere?)