Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 191219 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1665 on: April 05, 2019, 12:30:42 AM »
I see Flyjacks point but if the FDR had a clock at the bottom they should of been able to match everything, including the bump. not sure what the bump would do to the plane.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1666 on: April 05, 2019, 12:37:10 AM »
This must of been before they spoke to the pilots. didn't Scott say the plane pitched downward slightly...the document says they might not of known...
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 12:37:30 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1667 on: April 05, 2019, 12:41:29 AM »
gotta hit the sack...I'll check in the morning...
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1668 on: April 05, 2019, 02:41:01 PM »
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gotta hit the sack...I'll check in the morning...

R99 reminds us about the flight comms (email last night):

All:
First, it should be noted that there are two entries in the notes by the NWA station personnel at SEATAC.

One states that at 8:22 PM PST the airliner was 23 DME miles south of the PDX  VORTAC (Portland VORTAC, now the Battleground VORTAC).  This is probably the time that the printed teletype copy of the message was sent on the ARNIC system.

The second entry states that at 8:18 PM PST the airliner was 23 DME miles south of the PDX VORTAC.  This is probably the time that the actual voice message was received over the phone patch.

By 8:18 PM PST, the airliner was 20+ nautical miles past Tina Bar and about 7 minutes after the presumed Cooper jump time.  As I remember it, the crew heard the sound of the rear stairs slamming shut and then 5 or 10 minutes later realized that the sound probably represented the time of Cooper's jump.

The two redacted sections between 8:13 PM and 8:33 PM probably concerned the flight crew and the Seattle ATC people discussing Cooper's probable jump time and location over the ATC radio frequencies.

During this time frame, the flight crew was probably discussing the same thing with the FBI and NWA personnel over the ARINC radio system.  A study by Fred Poynter at the WSHM indicates that a number of those ARINC teletype messages are also missing.

Both the Seattle ATC transcripts and the ARINC teletype messages have been redacted or deleted for this time period.

Robert 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1669 on: April 05, 2019, 03:14:29 PM »
I thot 377 had already identified which FDR was on 305? I cant find it in my notes and the search engine at DZ is useless - turns up nothing! Flyjack now says the FDR may have been a model  .....

'I found the 727 had the flight recorder in the ventral stair cavity, the Fairchild Flight Data Recorder Model F-5424 was the one that kept coming up for the 727’s of that era in searches.. Seems to be the most common but no evidence that model was in NORJAK.. other models are similar. It could measure up to 5 parameters,, pressure altitude, indicated air speed, magnetic heading and vertical accelerations. These things do not have a timestamp, they sync with radio transmissions and use ground comms to create a timeline'

If Cooper bailed at 8:09 somewhere north of Ariel as now contended, what sense do these comms make?

20:05 PST   Pilot reports that he has tried twice to contact Cooper unsuccessfully, then he came on the PA system and said everything is OK.   Pilot   Comm. with Flt-Ops MSP

20:12 PST   Flt 305 advises they are getting some oscillations in the cabin, Cooper must be doing something with the stairs.   Pilot   Comm. with Flt-Ops MSP 

This puts oscillations and bump occurring AFTER a jump at 8:09?

Why wouldnt there be a LITTLE BOB or a BIG BOB for oscillations and bump whereas there is a LITTLE BOB for Cooper leaving the stairs ? Or did the 20:12 event actually happen at 8:09?

This is getting very complicated - again.  :rofl:

I guess we can now wipe pieces of history off the monument! Hell I never could read hieroglyphics anyway! "Could see the lights of Vancouver coming up" turns out to be an straight out lie. In his next post Flyjack will eliminate the pilots and the crew ... and scores of others, from the DB Cooper Hijacking.  There must be a new 302 on that somewhere. :rofl: 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 03:31:06 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1670 on: April 05, 2019, 05:50:16 PM »
I believe the area you show was the first location to search. the model FDR 305 had wasn't really put under a microscope as a option. it's actually how the foil was read. see the photo provided shows the microscope table used for viewing the foil. it had 5 parameters.  Pressure altitude, indicated airspeed, magnetic heading, vertical acceleration (load factor) and
microphone (radio) keying versus time

I can't get the photo small enough. here is the link with the photo I tried to provide..

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also, I'm not completely sold on the transcripts having any redacted material. it would be visible where they covered the data. this would be removing the data, or hiding it..this would be grounds for a conspiracy to cover up. if they simply didn't want anyone to read the data they would cover it (redact it). again, this suggests they flat out removed it..that's not how they redact things.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1671 on: April 05, 2019, 07:46:40 PM »
Hi 377

any idea what this means?

microphone (radio) keying versus time

and your take on the photo below...
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 08:15:26 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1672 on: April 05, 2019, 11:48:36 PM »
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I believe the area you show was the first location to search. the model FDR 305 had wasn't really put under a microscope as a option. it's actually how the foil was read. see the photo provided shows the microscope table used for viewing the foil. it had 5 parameters.  Pressure altitude, indicated airspeed, magnetic heading, vertical acceleration (load factor) and
microphone (radio) keying versus time

I can't get the photo small enough. here is the link with the photo I tried to provide..

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also, I'm not completely sold on the transcripts having any redacted material. it would be visible where they covered the data. this would be removing the data, or hiding it..this would be grounds for a conspiracy to cover up. if they simply didn't want anyone to read the data they would cover it (redact it). again, this suggests they flat out removed it..that's not how they redact things.

Are these the photos you want, in the pdf?

I looked but cant find any good microscope view of a foil tape.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 11:50:45 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1673 on: April 05, 2019, 11:53:13 PM »
foil tape
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 11:54:39 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1674 on: April 05, 2019, 11:58:30 PM »
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Hi 377

any idea what this means?

microphone (radio) keying versus time

and your take on the photo below...

The core of the argument is that 8:09 real time is 8:12 TTY or keying time. The FDR records all true keying events in 'true time'. That's my understanding ?

What bothers me about this equivalence (with a dz north of Ariel!) is it conflicts with other statements made by the crew. For one, there is no way Rataczak can be seeing the lights of Vancouver coming up, from 8:09 = north of Ariel ...... unless Ratczk has the vision of an eagle!   

Do we now change all communications timestamps to reflect this difference? Subtract 3 mins from every TTY timestamp?

BTW, where is the foil tape today? Or is it LOST too!   :nono:
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 12:19:26 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1675 on: April 06, 2019, 12:20:11 AM »
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Anybody have contact info for Sluggo that is up-to-date? If so, please let him know I would like contact. Thanks.

brucesmith At rainierconnect Dot com.

A certain member of this site (not me) has been in contact with Sluggo within the past month or so.  Post your reasons for wanting to contact Sluggo and perhaps that member might be willing to assist you.  But don't count on it for reasons that probably won't be posted here.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1676 on: April 06, 2019, 12:23:49 AM »
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What does I-5 have to do with the flight path?

Nothing, but the placard was found about 9.5 statute miles straight east of I-5.

ADDENDUM:  Eric Ulis and I have been doing some work on the flight path recently and it develops that the placard was found about 0.7 nautical miles WEST and up wind of the FBI flight path.  This should be the silver spike into the heart of that flight path.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 12:40:47 AM by Robert99 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1677 on: April 06, 2019, 12:26:12 AM »
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What does I-5 have to do with the flight path?

Nothing, but the placard was found about 9.5 statute miles straight east of I-5.

WELCOME HOME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    :congrats:
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1678 on: April 06, 2019, 12:57:21 AM »
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Placard update .I have done 3 tests so far. I first let the placard just drift and the next card I put a spin on it. The spin always goes straight down. Why wouldn't there be a chance of this happening 5 miles west?

Just remember that the entire air mass was moving to the northeast even if your tests suggest that the placard was descending straight down with respect to that air mass.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1679 on: April 06, 2019, 01:02:46 AM »
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How did they get so far off as to not knowing the plane was 8 miles west?


Is this accurate?

What I mean is this. Does the controller watching the blip on the screen have anything on the screen that shows precisely where the blip is in relation to other landmarks.. in other words, if there was a satellite image of the ground below the blip super-imposed on the radar screen that would be a good guide. However, if the radar screen is just black with a blip on it how does the controller known precisely where the jet is in relation to certain things?

Also, wasn't this information, and subsequent flight path, super-imposed on a map after the fact? Perhaps in real time the controller didn't know precisely where the jet was relative to other locations so as to be able to judge if the jet was close to Tena Bar.

Your last sentence is correct.  It is unlikely that the controller's radar display included anything other than what appears on the IFR enroute charts.  That is, no topographical information such as is included on the aircraft VFR sectional charts would be on his screen.