Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 127982 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2014, 05:37:40 PM »
Robert, are you able to view the disk? if so you can put them on your desktop and try a fresh copy from that direction. If the disk is corrupt, it most likely done with, but if you can access the files you can go from there. I just got home, so let me think about the options.
 
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georger

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Re: MAPS ON DVDS
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2014, 06:30:09 PM »
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About four years ago, I ordered digital copies of the FAA's Low Altitude Enroute IFR maps L1 and L2 through the National Archives and a contractor who actually made the disks.  The maps were in effect on November 24, 1971 and contained the navigational information that the NWA airliner would be using on it flight from Seattle to Reno.

When the contractor sent me the disks, they would not initially work on my computer.  After quite a bit of work between the contractor and myself, we finally got the problem resolved.  I made duplicate disks of both maps and sent them to Sluggo and he in turn posted them on his web page.

Recently, I tried to make duplicate copies of my "archive disks" in order to send the maps to the WSHM.  But I have not been able to get any of the disks, which have worked in the past, to open.  No reason for this can be determined.  I am using the very same computer as before and only the normal upgrades to Windows 7 and to Internet Explorer 11 have been made.

I took the disks to one commercial shop and they told me the disks were corrupted.  I have no idea how that could have happened and doubt if it did.

Do any of you computer wizards have a suggestion for correcting this problem?

Robert if you can copy the disk(s) and get me a copy I can have our best IT people look at it -
likewise several at Rockwell, etc.   I can try to go beyond that, if required. Is the disk encoded?
 
 

Coopsnoop

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2014, 08:12:26 PM »
Robert99:  I didn't mean "missing minutes" to be taken literally, but rather figuratively as an unaccounted for "time frame for jump exit."   The exact exit time for Cooper will never be known.  The pilots did not log the time of the bump, and the bump isn't an absolute indication of him leaving the aircraft.  There is speculation in play on Cooper's time of probable departure.  And the money find at Tina's Bar is important to the case, but limited in value if you believe that it is direct evidence of the flight path.  It is not.  There is a chance that the money find was a cunnard.  This case carries no ablsolutes.  Alignment of factual evidence does not produce a clear solution.  And if you think you know the solution, you still have a problem, because the factual evidence does not fall into place to bare out a clear conclusion.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2014, 09:03:04 PM »
I would be interested in knowing your definition of "factual evidence".  How did you arrive at the conclusion that the money at Tina Bar may have been planted?  I believe that both the FBI, specifically Larry Carr, and lawyers on this thread are very skeptical about the money being planted based on their experience with criminals.

Have you read Tom Kaye's conclusions about the Washougal wash down theory?  Based on some tests Kaye did with actual paper money, he essentially states that the wash down theory doesn't wash.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2014, 10:45:53 PM »
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I would be interested in knowing your definition of "factual evidence".  How did you arrive at the conclusion that the money at Tina Bar may have been planted?  I believe that both the FBI, specifically Larry Carr, and lawyers on this thread are very skeptical about the money being planted based on their experience with criminals.

Have you read Tom Kaye's conclusions about the Washougal wash down theory?  Based on some tests Kaye did with actual paper money, he essentially states that the wash down theory doesn't wash.


McCoy's jump was at a higher altitude. would the noise they heard be different from 10,000 vs McCoy's jump. I don't recall the altitude at this moment. this article was from the Parachutist Website. they describe it differently.

Added: I just realized that last two paragraphs are mine. I made this a while back, didn't notice until I posted it.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 10:49:02 PM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2014, 01:11:21 AM »
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Robert99:  I didn't mean "missing minutes" to be taken literally, but rather figuratively as an unaccounted for "time frame for jump exit."   The exact exit time for Cooper will never be known.  The pilots did not log the time of the bump, and the bump isn't an absolute indication of him leaving the aircraft.  There is speculation in play on Cooper's time of probable departure.  And the money find at Tina's Bar is important to the case, but limited in value if you believe that it is direct evidence of the flight path.  It is not.  There is a chance that the money find was a cunnard.  This case carries no ablsolutes.  Alignment of factual evidence does not produce a clear solution.  And if you think you know the solution, you still have a problem, because the factual evidence does not fall into place to bare out a clear conclusion.

Coopsnoop, let me post the below to give some meat to the discussion. What follows includes
paraphrased testimony recently received from H. Anderson, received by myself and two others.
People can cherry pick what I am posting, agree, disagree, complain, ... whatever. But I believe
what follows is an accurate portrait and paraphrase of testimony recently received, juxtaposed
with the timeline in the Transcripts -

Intro: The period of the ‘oscillations & bump’ was used to set the time and location of Cooper’s
jump.  These symptoms of a parachutist leaving the 727 via the rear door/stairs was
unanticipated by the flight crew at the time, therefore the crew was not sure what was going on
or it’s meaning. Tina had come forward  and advised ‘it appears Cooper is getting ready to
jump’.     

19:42 (07:42)   Flt 305 reports “14 NM out of SEA on Victor-23. Cooper is trying to get the door
down, Stew is with us, he cannot get the stairs down. We now have an aft stair light on.
19:54 (07:54)    Flt 305 reports: Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him
and [she] thinks he will jump.

19:54 (07:54)   Flt Ops MSP advised that they have a direct phone patch hooked up on 131.8
MHz. [Phone patch to NWA … indicates crew thinks Cooper about to bail, communication restricted
to NWA?]

Time ??           Cooper calls on intercom requests “Slow down! Stabilize the plane…”. Unreported in
TR but verified in crew testimony. Scott responds by slowing and stabilizing the aircraft so Cooper
can bail. Rataczak communicating events to NWA as they happen. (source: Rataczak & Anderson)

20:05 (08:05)   MSP-Flt Ops. Pilot reports that he has tried twice to contact Cooper unsuccessfully,
then he came on the PA system and said everything is OK.  (Cooper still on the plane)

20:11 (08:11)  Time generally attributed to Cooper’s jump. (FBI)

20:12 (08:12)  Oscillations reported…     Flt 305 advises they are getting some oscillations in the
cabin, Cooper must be doing something with the stairs.  (Anderson & Rataczak later explain this
report did not include mention of a ‘bump’.  Bump reported later to NWA by Rataczak “after we
discussed it for several minutes…”) (Cooper still on the plane or stairs)

20:15 (08:15)  SEA CNTR advises Portland Altimeter (Corresponding Sea Level Barometric
Pressure) is 30.03 inches of Hg. [This is important because it shows that at 20:15:56 they were
very near Portland.]

Time ??           Rataczak reports Cooper may have bailed to NWA on 131.8 MHz . (‘The oscillations
had stopped and we hadn’t experienced any further bumps, so we discussed it among ourselves
and we decided the ‘bump’ was when Cooper bailed so Bill (Rataczak) called it in to NWA’ – exact
time and position uncertain. ‘Nobody was taking notes or noting times and positions of any of
these events. Bill (Rataczak) thought (later reported) the bump we felt was about 5-10 minutes
after our last contact with Cooper at 8:05. I agreed with that but it could have been later. We
weren’t sure what had happened or if he was gone at all. Scott wanted to go back and look but
that got vetoed. Bill estimated (recalling) that he could see the lights of Portland-Vancouver
coming up, but we hadn’t crossed the Columbia yet. Bill was looking ahead and out his right
window. The test flight we conducted verified the link between the ‘bump’ and the stairs slamming
back up when weight was taken off the stairs. The Air Force guys and one NWA tech made that
connection pretty quickly. We weren’t sure what the ‘bump’ meant at the time, we weren’t sure
Cooper was gone, but the test flight confirmed what the ‘bump’ was. No, we weren’t anywhere
near the Washougal when the bump happened. As I said, we could see the lights of Portland-
Vancouver coming up. ‘ (H. Anderson, paraphased)

20:20 (08:20)     Flt Ops MSP request Go to 131.8 MHz.  (NWA channel)

20:20 (08:20)     Flt-Ops SEA advises Flt 305 is already on that frequency. Flt Ops MSP Advises we
are on the phone and will be talking with him shortly. 

Note*  Rataczak says the bump happened 5-10 mins after their last conversation with C at 8:05.
Rataczak’s bailout window is: 8:10-8:15. Anderson agrees but says it might have been slightly
later. What Anderson reveals is there was a delay in reporting, because they didn’t know what
had happened or what the bump meant for certain.  They discussed the matter before reporting
the socalled ‘bump.  But, this uncertainty as to precise time and location due to combined factors including delayed reporting, is reflected in the NWA-FBI search map. Indeed, including uncertainty in the NWA-FBI map confirms the fact there were "uncertainties" at play, in real time aboard flight 305 at the time. Otherwise, they could very easily have just issued a map of the primary search area and reduced the uncertainty the made-map conveys!


 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 01:19:20 AM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2014, 01:47:15 AM »
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found this site through Bing. Took me a while but i figured out it must be only for talking about db cooper? I heard about that money they found on the river. I've always thought it meant he probably drowned or something.

welcome ... what are your interests in the DB Cooper case?

 

Coopsnoop

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2014, 04:42:56 AM »
Robert99:

I didn't "conclude" that the money was planted.  I'm using that as supposition, just as you may "conclude" that it wasn't planted.   Who can prove what?  If it was easy, the case have been solved long ago.  You can examine anomalies in any criminal case, or scientific experiment, and use those anomolies to build your conclusion.  But that would be flawed logic.  As for FBI and lawyers using "their experience" to assume that the money couldn't be planted, well........maybe that's what Cooper wanted them to think.   You have no idea what goes on in the mind of a clever criminal, Robert.   Some of them may be smarter than the FBI or lawyers.  As for Tom Kaye......I believe that he publicly rejected the washdown theory.  That leaves two likely alternatives:  a direct Cooper landing at Tina's Bar, or a plant.   I think Tom Kaye is going with a "plant."  Maybe Tom Kaye will post and expound.

Georger:  I'll discuss your post tomorrow.  I'm heading for bed.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2014, 02:45:24 PM »
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Robert99:

I didn't "conclude" that the money was planted.  I'm using that as supposition, just as you may "conclude" that it wasn't planted.   Who can prove what?  If it was easy, the case have been solved long ago.  You can examine anomalies in any criminal case, or scientific experiment, and use those anomolies to build your conclusion.  But that would be flawed logic.  As for FBI and lawyers using "their experience" to assume that the money couldn't be planted, well........maybe that's what Cooper wanted them to think.   You have no idea what goes on in the mind of a clever criminal, Robert.   Some of them may be smarter than the FBI or lawyers.  As for Tom Kaye......I believe that he publicly rejected the washdown theory.  That leaves two likely alternatives:  a direct Cooper landing at Tina's Bar, or a plant.   I think Tom Kaye is going with a "plant."  Maybe Tom Kaye will post and expound.

Georger:  I'll discuss your post tomorrow.  I'm heading for bed.

Coopsnoop said:
"I didn't "conclude" that the money was planted.  I'm using that as supposition, just as you may "conclude" that it wasn't planted.   Who can prove what? "

Well... I think the difference between planted vs. not-planted is testable and can be proved, if you
can show each condition has its own characteristic traits. It's a forensic matter. One set of traits
will indicate "planted". Another set of traits indicates "not planted".

For example, when things are exposed to the atmosphere they acquire particular isotopic traits,
due to the nature of the Earth's atmosphere (post atomic testing in the 1940s-50s). This is a
well documented universal fact used to date things. If a thing is buried it is not being exposed to
the atmosphere. Things buried vs things not buried have different isotopic exposure clocks. This
would apply to the Cooper money, as well any other physical object on Earth. (This was
mentioned years ago on DZ. back about 2008. People didn't pay much attention!)  :)

BTW, such tests were available back in 1980  when the money was first discovered.

In a similar fashion, there are other criteria which imply "plant" vs. "non-plant" with different
clocks indicative of each - science is fun!  :) 
 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 02:49:07 PM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2014, 03:13:06 PM »
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Robert99:

I didn't "conclude" that the money was planted.  I'm using that as supposition, just as you may "conclude" that it wasn't planted.   Who can prove what?  If it was easy, the case have been solved long ago.  You can examine anomalies in any criminal case, or scientific experiment, and use those anomolies to build your conclusion.  But that would be flawed logic.  As for FBI and lawyers using "their experience" to assume that the money couldn't be planted, well........maybe that's what Cooper wanted them to think.   You have no idea what goes on in the mind of a clever criminal, Robert.   Some of them may be smarter than the FBI or lawyers.  As for Tom Kaye......I believe that he publicly rejected the washdown theory.  That leaves two likely alternatives:  a direct Cooper landing at Tina's Bar, or a plant.   I think Tom Kaye is going with a "plant."  Maybe Tom Kaye will post and expound.

Georger:  I'll discuss your post tomorrow.  I'm heading for bed.

Coopsnoop said:
"I didn't "conclude" that the money was planted.  I'm using that as supposition, just as you may "conclude" that it wasn't planted.   Who can prove what? "

Well... I think the difference between planted vs. not-planted is testable and can be proved, if you
can show each condition has its own characteristic traits. It's a forensic matter. One set of traits
will indicate "planted". Another set of traits indicates "not planted".

For example, when things are exposed to the atmosphere they acquire particular isotopic traits,
due to the nature of the Earth's atmosphere (post atomic testing in the 1940s-50s). This is a
well documented universal fact used to date things. If a thing is buried it is not being exposed to
the atmosphere. Things buried vs things not buried have different isotopic exposure clocks. This
would apply to the Cooper money, as well any other physical object on Earth. (This was
mentioned years ago on DZ. back about 2008. People didn't pay much attention!)  :)

BTW, such tests were available back in 1980  when the money was first discovered.

In a similar fashion, there are other criteria which imply "plant" vs. "non-plant" with different
clocks indicative of each - science is fun!  :) 
 

Georger, is there a possibility for testing the money as you mention above and/or for further tests for river contamination?
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2014, 03:31:59 PM »
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Robert99:

I didn't "conclude" that the money was planted.  I'm using that as supposition, just as you may "conclude" that it wasn't planted.   Who can prove what?  If it was easy, the case have been solved long ago.  You can examine anomalies in any criminal case, or scientific experiment, and use those anomolies to build your conclusion.  But that would be flawed logic.  As for FBI and lawyers using "their experience" to assume that the money couldn't be planted, well........maybe that's what Cooper wanted them to think.   You have no idea what goes on in the mind of a clever criminal, Robert.   Some of them may be smarter than the FBI or lawyers.  As for Tom Kaye......I believe that he publicly rejected the washdown theory.  That leaves two likely alternatives:  a direct Cooper landing at Tina's Bar, or a plant.   I think Tom Kaye is going with a "plant."  Maybe Tom Kaye will post and expound.

Georger:  I'll discuss your post tomorrow.  I'm heading for bed.

Coopsnoop said:
"I didn't "conclude" that the money was planted.  I'm using that as supposition, just as you may "conclude" that it wasn't planted.   Who can prove what? "

Well... I think the difference between planted vs. not-planted is testable and can be proved, if you
can show each condition has its own characteristic traits. It's a forensic matter. One set of traits
will indicate "planted". Another set of traits indicates "not planted".

For example, when things are exposed to the atmosphere they acquire particular isotopic traits,
due to the nature of the Earth's atmosphere (post atomic testing in the 1940s-50s). This is a
well documented universal fact used to date things. If a thing is buried it is not being exposed to
the atmosphere. Things buried vs things not buried have different isotopic exposure clocks. This
would apply to the Cooper money, as well any other physical object on Earth. (This was
mentioned years ago on DZ. back about 2008. People didn't pay much attention!)  :)

BTW, such tests were available back in 1980  when the money was first discovered.

In a similar fashion, there are other criteria which imply "plant" vs. "non-plant" with different
clocks indicative of each - science is fun!  :) 
 

Georger, is there a possibility for testing the money as you mention above and/or for further tests for river contamination?

Sure, to some extent. At this point anyone running tests on this money, fragments, soil samples, band fragments (if they could be isolated)... etc. would want samples in as 'pristine' (uncontaminated) condition, as possible. And plenty of time to work with the samples and think things through (developing a schedule of applied tests). There is just a finite amount of this material left which would qualify as being 'uncontaminated'. The time for turning these precious
samples over to back yard mechanics, has ceased, imho! Professionals who know what they are doing will be required from this point on . . . that was always my first line of thought or I never would have made an overture to Larry, in the first place.

I feel the same about the rest of the Cooper evidence. The FBI needs to put somebody in charge of this evidence who really knows what he's doing. That means someone who is up to date and knowledgeable about the wide swath of forensic testing (including genetic testing) that could be applied to the physical evidence the FBI has, in this case.

If I were the FBI/Atty General, I would even go so far as to acquire the bills/fragments including the original evidence folders Ingram was given and has, to get those items of evidence back into government hands and secure them along with the rest of the Cooper physical evidence ... I feel very strongly about this because I think the original Court Judgement to split this evidence up, was wrong and very short-sighted.

As I told Eng once, I would NEVER! give up on this case. Time is a valuable ally in this matter
if used appropriately -

Yours is an important question and maybe the most important question of all, at this point - 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 03:39:55 PM by georger »
 

Coopsnoop

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2014, 08:54:06 PM »
Georger:

The different traits between "planted" and "non-planted" could possibly show up through some form of biological detection, I suppose.  If the money was in a prior location for "x" number of years, its possible that there may be biological indicators that the money sat at another location besides Tina's Bar.  We know that Tom Kaye tested for silver nitrate, which was determined, but that was indicative of the FBI using "sn" in their earlier test for fingerprints.   So what other test exists?  How about "anaerobic v. aerobic?"   Would the bills go through accelerated degradation in one of those conditions?  I guess the larger question would be:  given the structural composition of the bills, what environmental factors would suggest the "rounded edges" and the "little holes" found on the bills?  Remember, Dr. Palmer stated that the money packets were only at TB for 9 to 12 months prior.
 

Coopsnoop

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2014, 09:08:54 PM »
Georger://

Nice summation of the communications between the crew and ATC/NWA.  I think that you have opened the door to some further speculation.  If Cooper is testing out the stairs, and that registers as "oscillations and bumps," then the "last" bump would arguably be the "bump that sent him out the door."   Or would it?   I propose a couple of other possibilities.   What if the crew was also experiencing turbulance and relied on their "feel" of the airflow as the "last bump."   Couldn't turbulance be confused with oscillations?  Are their other indicators on board that can register air pressure differentials, and thus, oscillations?  And another possibility.  If Cooper is the deceptive genious that some believe, what would prevent him from producing oscillations by plunging the airstairs a few times to create backpressure and a false positive to the crew?   If he has pilot training and knows aircraft, which he must to some degree, he might know how to create the impressions that will allow him to escape.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2014, 10:01:05 PM »
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Georger:

The different traits between "planted" and "non-planted" could possibly show up through some form of biological detection, I suppose.  If the money was in a prior location for "x" number of years, its possible that there may be biological indicators that the money sat at another location besides Tina's Bar.  We know that Tom Kaye tested for silver nitrate, which was determined, but that was indicative of the FBI using "sn" in their earlier test for fingerprints.   So what other test exists?  How about "anaerobic v. aerobic?"   Would the bills go through accelerated degradation in one of those conditions?  I guess the larger question would be:  given the structural composition of the bills, what environmental factors would suggest the "rounded edges" and the "little holes" found on the bills?  Remember, Dr. Palmer stated that the money packets were only at TB for 9 to 12 months prior.

Coopsnoop, There is one additional peculiarity with the bills that should be considered.  Tom Kaye has photographs on his web page that indicates one packet of the bills had been "torqued", presumably by water.  Looking at those photographs is the best way to understand what I am talking about.  There is a very remote possibility that this torqueing could have been done by airflow over a relatively long period (weeks or a few months) of time.

If the packet was torqued by water, then why wasn't evidence of river water contamination found on the bills?  If it was done by airflow, the packet would have to be exposed to view for a lengthy period of time.  Since Tina Bar is visited daily by fishermen and "sand trampers", why didn't they notice the money?  The three packets of bills found at Tina Bar were very close to each other and did not appear to have been exposed to any great amount of violence (regardless of the torqueing).
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2014, 02:37:27 PM »
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Georger:

The different traits between "planted" and "non-planted" could possibly show up through some form of biological detection, I suppose.  If the money was in a prior location for "x" number of years, its possible that there may be biological indicators that the money sat at another location besides Tina's Bar.  We know that Tom Kaye tested for silver nitrate, which was determined, but that was indicative of the FBI using "sn" in their earlier test for fingerprints.   So what other test exists?  How about "anaerobic v. aerobic?"   Would the bills go through accelerated degradation in one of those conditions?  I guess the larger question would be:  given the structural composition of the bills, what environmental factors would suggest the "rounded edges" and the "little holes" found on the bills?  Remember, Dr. Palmer stated that the money packets were only at TB for 9 to 12 months prior.

Maybe we are 'sposed to be discussing the money in the Money Section? Realise things spill over
automatically.  You mention "biological indicators" associated with different locations. That's a reasonable expectation one might test for. What "biological indicators" do you think would imply
plant vs. arrived by natural means? Can you be specific. Tom did not find any 'diatoms', I guess.
That is curious. Does that indicate "plant"?

There is this whole issue of degradation, and traits of degradation, which has yet to be nailed down. Rounded edges on bills. (Corners and edges tend to get rounded off in nature)?

Maybe we should take this to the Money section?

You ask good questions. Do you know Brian is here!? Hopefully we can bring Brian into this discussion.   :)