Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues (Read 746921 times)

Shutter · « **Reply #1455 on:** March 24, 2019, 09:18:08 PM »

the two photo's differ due to position and altitude...

fcastle866 · « **Reply #1456 on:** March 24, 2019, 09:45:32 PM »

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the two photo's differ due to position and altitude...

I don't see that. The first two are of a heavily wooded area. The one from CS shows a lot of light brown, which looks like sand to me. I don't think altitude and position account for this. If they are different spots, I'd be curious to know why.

Shutter · « **Reply #1457 on:** March 24, 2019, 10:13:34 PM »

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the two photo's differ due to position and altitude...

I don't see that. The first two are of a heavily wooded area. The one from CS shows a lot of light brown, which looks like sand to me. I don't think altitude and position account for this. If they are different spots, I'd be curious to know why.

don't forget Tom's pics are a decade old. different seasons etc.

rechecking....

Shutter · « **Reply #1458 on:** March 24, 2019, 11:16:00 PM »

I'm waiting on more info from Tom. he explained that it was on private property and no cords were given. I recall a site years ago giving them but how accurate they are is not known...

I also sent him the file you made. perhaps he will pop on....

georger · « **Reply #1459 on:** March 24, 2019, 11:43:08 PM »

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I'll also say that people are not infallible. Even experts. An example of this can be found in the Palmer Report. Dr. Palmer got it wrong as proven by Tom Kaye with the help of Mother Nature who stripped away a significant length of Tena Bar and afforded TK the opportunity to see the strata running the length of the beach in 2008.

The problem is that the FBI flight path appeared to involve some level of conjecture. That said, the actual evidence--placard find, money find--is concrete. Furthermore, the fact that the search area is several miles downstream from Tena Bar is concrete. And, the fact that not a shred of anything has been found in the search area after more than 47 years is also concrete.

These concrete facts tell a story. Unfortunately, it doesn't bode well for the FBI's flight path. Perhaps, just perhaps, the FBI got the flight path wrong just as they got the Tena Bar dredge layer analysis wrong?

Is Relativity wrong too?

georger · « **Reply #1460 on:** March 25, 2019, 12:20:13 AM »

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nothing concrete in any of this...

We have multiple radars watching 305 all the way to Norad. military aircraft chasing the plane, with radar. the Sage radar as well. The Air Force plotted the course given to the FBI. why or how could they be wrong with multiple radars? the placard in no way works for the original path, concrete against it?

I said this before. it's like reading an old cold case where 10 people say the suspect goes in the front door and now people believe they went in through the back?

Then you want to believe Roberts theory BUT, not the no pull part of it because the suspect needs to survive.....

In the middle of staining my french door....

I am unaware of anything that states SAGE radar was used.

The FBI also admitted that the flight path was wrong inasmuch as they adjusted the flight path and search area to bring it over the Washougal area after Palmer's report. Somebody got something wrong somewhere.

I do not need my suspect to live. That is backwards. The evidence--Tena Bar packets--indicate that Cooper lived. Plus the fact that nothing else--no body, no money, no parachute, no dummy reserve, no attache' case--was ever found also indicates Cooper lived.

I am here to make you aware!
Now you have been informed.
Never again can you claim to be "unaware of" . . .
Got any more doubts about SAGE ?

EU · « **Reply #1461 on:** March 25, 2019, 02:53:13 AM »

This is a very good and very important discussion. The entire case changes on the flight path alone. That said, I'll briefly state why I think the FBI flight path is wrong.

1) I'm assuming that TK's depiction of the placard find is accurate given that he obtained GPS coordinates from Carroll Hicks. The placard being found west of the FBI flight path is a major problem if you adhere to the FBI flight path model.

2) The money was found at Tena Bar. Outside of human intervention, the only remotely feasible way for the money to arrive at Tena Bar by natural means is for it to have ended up in the Columbia River upstream from Tena Bar. However, according to the FBI flight path the jet crossed the Columbia at 8:17PM. Moreover, factoring in the SW winds the jet would probably have needed to be at least one minute into Oregon before Cooper jumped in order to land in the Columbia River. This puts Cooper's jump time at 8:18PM. How is this possible if the FBI is also certain that he jumped at 8:12PM? Something doesn't add up here.

3) No one has ever found Cooper's body, his parachute, the dummy reserve, the attache' case or the rest of the money anywhere along or near the FBI flight path. Why? How is this possible especially if he no-pulled?

4) Put yourself in Cooper's shoes for a minute. It seems likely that he intended to jump near Seattle. That said, he was delayed and did not. Why then would he chose to jump into utter blackness knowing he has to walk out? Why wouldn't he wait until he was closer to an urban area before jumping?

5) Given that the jet had a "bomb" aboard, why would the jet have flown right over downtown Portland? Why would it have taken the circuitous route depicted in the FBI flight path versus simply travelling straight to the western suburbs of Portland from Maylay?

In my diseased mind the only way to rationalize all of this is that the FBI flight path is wrong. Furthermore, that the jet traveled to the west of the FBI's flight path.

Shutter · « **Reply #1462 on:** March 25, 2019, 08:52:06 AM »

Tom never gave any cords to the placard location. a site use to be up with the cords that appear to have been accurate.

The FBI has admitted the time frame of the jump could be off as we have read the search area goes all the way to the Columbia river. then you have a problem with the oscillation and pressure bump which is not on the transcripts. the pilots have stated on record that they didn't signal using the lights to mark a time because they were not sure Cooper bailed.

Tom has explained to me in the past that ham operators were listening in and helped with a location and time frame.

How concerned were they about the ground and the bomb. why not fly over the ocean if everyone was that worried about flying over populated area's? how populated was downtown Portland. it's the business center/buildings?

A lot of Roberts theory makes sense but did it really happen. can we rule out Cooper was black? if the air traffic controllers, Air Force radar (Sage) and military planes had no clue where they were how can we rule out Cooper being black. they could all be wrong?

The only option would be is a conspiracy which really makes no sense. this would involve a lot of people. they never even showed the map until Carr released it, so who was the map fooling all these years? are we stating if bombers came into this country they wouldn't know where they really were? the radar data is very hard to get around IMO along with traffic controllers saying they never left V23. this again means they were lying or didn't know how to operate the scope.

I see a lot more evidence the jump time is off vs the flight path.

Now, if you go east of the flight path you will run into similar arguments with Jerry and Ralph stating where the plane was that evening.

Shutter · « **Reply #1463 on:** March 25, 2019, 09:23:18 AM »

Castle appears to be correct with the cords and position of the placard. I was under the impression it was close to the Malay intersection? the cords show it further down the path?

EU · « **Reply #1464 on:** March 25, 2019, 10:42:44 AM »

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From Tom's site titled "Research Conclusion"

The FBI flight path map passes the test. Agents working on the flight path in 1971 had the radar and flight path data which is lost today. The SAGE radar used to track Cooper's plane was relied upon to identify, locate and track incoming Russian bombers and threats to the United States, so there is no reason to assume they would get it wrong. Analysis of various features of this case rule out the theories that require a different flight path than the one portrayed on the FBI map. Lastly, the text descriptions in the FBI 302 link the flight path to various towns. This research finds that the flight path and jump zone are reasonable and should be a cornerstone in the analysis of this case.

I've attached a two page PowerPoint with some screen shots on the flight path. When I first got into this case, I really took an interest in the flight path, more so to determine jump time (8:12-8:13 etc.) and landing spot (Ariel, more south, etc.). I did not spend much time thinking about the money find at that point. With that said, I don't desire to get into a back and forth, but rather maybe use this as an opportunity to engage in some good dialogue on some of the little details. The little details matter sometimes, sometimes they don't. In this discussion about the placard, I think the FBI flight path is generally correct. Whether the placard was found to the east or west of it is not a huge deal to me, in that it would only have been a little east or west, therefore confirming that at this point in the flight that the FBI flight path was accurate. However, the correct flight path further into the flight is still a question to many people.

So, if you look at the attachment, you'll see screen shots of where I place the placard, and where another person places the placard. Our spots are different, but they are close. I'll defer to his spot over mine given his background in the case. Now, the other shot on that page is from Citizen Sleuths. I can't place their picture on the map. The terrain features (sand) just don't match up with what I've seen. I'd be curious to see if anyone with more time can maybe mess around with the GPS coordinates and the lat/long method and see what they come up with. Those coordinates are on the attachment too. I believe they are accurate, but I can not be certain (I got those offline a year ago and don't have the notes handy).

If my spot and the other person's spot are accurate, then the FBI flight path puts the placard east of the flight path. If CS is accurate, then it puts the placard west of the path.

The second slide has a pic of the map I played with a year ago. You'll see a straight line in pencil from Toutle to Pigeon Springs that is west of the placard find. Regardless, these coordinates put the placard find generally on the FBI flight path, and I don't feel the need to split hairs over if it was a little west or a little east.

Of note. I always thought the placard was metal. History did a show way back (the one with interviews from a passenger named Simmons). Himmelsbach was young too. They interview the hunter, and he says he picked up the placard, and folded it. Metal does not usually fold easily. The re-enactment makes it look like it was paper. Wind will do different things to paper than it will metal, of course. So maybe a rate of descent with wind speed calculation should be done given the actual material.

My understanding is that the hunter was hunting on family land, so he had a pretty good idea of where he was.

Long post. My apologies. I'd be curious to see what people come up with, if they even care. Probably just another rabbit hole. PDF not PP. PP was too big.

From what I can tell the plot that you point to is precisely the same location as the plot that TK shows. However, according to the FBI flight path the jet flew slightly east of that point. The jet flew directly from Maylay (Mayfield back then) over the intersection of the North Fork Toutle River and South Fork Toutle River, then a little further south it turned a few degrees south. The point is, there was a free-fall analysis done by R99 for TK and it shows the placard would have drifted at least 2.7 miles to the NE. Again, according to R99 this is a very conservative estimate and likely drifted much further.

Shutter · « **Reply #1465 on:** March 25, 2019, 10:51:36 AM »

The intersection was called "malay" in that period and is marked as that on the nautical chart. the plane flew southwest of malay never crossing the intersection. Robert said it's named something else now but still noted as malay on skyvector website.

Shutter · « **Reply #1466 on:** March 25, 2019, 10:55:26 AM »

The plane is west of V23 approaching Ed Carlson field on the west side approx. one half mile then turns and fly's by the malay intersection after rounding Carlson field.

georger · « **Reply #1467 on:** March 25, 2019, 04:08:02 PM »

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This is a very good and very important discussion. The entire case changes on the flight path alone. That said, I'll briefly state why I think the FBI flight path is wrong.

1) I'm assuming that TK's depiction of the placard find is accurate given that he obtained GPS coordinates from Carroll Hicks. The placard being found west of the FBI flight path is a major problem if you adhere to the FBI flight path model.

2) The money was found at Tena Bar. Outside of human intervention, the only remotely feasible way for the money to arrive at Tena Bar by natural means is for it to have ended up in the Columbia River upstream from Tena Bar. However, according to the FBI flight path the jet crossed the Columbia at 8:17PM. Moreover, factoring in the SW winds the jet would probably have needed to be at least one minute into Oregon before Cooper jumped in order to land in the Columbia River. This puts Cooper's jump time at 8:18PM. How is this possible if the FBI is also certain that he jumped at 8:12PM? Something doesn't add up here.

3) No one has ever found Cooper's body, his parachute, the dummy reserve, the attache' case or the rest of the money anywhere along or near the FBI flight path. Why? How is this possible especially if he no-pulled?

4) Put yourself in Cooper's shoes for a minute. It seems likely that he intended to jump near Seattle. That said, he was delayed and did not. Why then would he chose to jump into utter blackness knowing he has to walk out? Why wouldn't he wait until he was closer to an urban area before jumping?

5) Given that the jet had a "bomb" aboard, why would the jet have flown right over downtown Portland? Why would it have taken the circuitous route depicted in the FBI flight path versus simply travelling straight to the western suburbs of Portland from Maylay?

In my diseased mind the only way to rationalize all of this is that the FBI flight path is wrong. Furthermore, that the jet traveled to the west of the FBI's flight path.

Once again you seem completely unaware of Cooper case evidence and ignore or deny all "evidence" in the DB Cooper case.

On 4/8-9/1976 a high level conference was held in San Francisco, on the Cooper case. Attendees included reps from the FBI, NWO cental figures, FAA, ATC, USAF, etc. A central issue discussed was the flight path and where Cooper actually left 305, in light of the fact all searches had proved negative. The flight path was re-evaluated all over again with presentations by various individuals and entities.

The 302 attached below details how the FBI planned to inform the media, following this "seminar". Principal people were assigned the task of informing the media about where central issues in the Cooper case now stood, following the San Francisco seminar. Himmelsbach was one of the people assigned to speak with the press and the foundations for that began being laid, coordinated from several FBI offices. Clyde Jabin of the UPI became one of the press people contacted.

Speaking with an FBI rep, Jabin wrote: "From a computer analysis of available information, including the plane's altitude, speed, and wind data, the FBI says it is 'positive' Cooper came down in a 24 square mile area 12 miles north of Portland" The FBI is saying the flight path and jump time of Cooper has been re-evaluated at the SF Conference, and is now being changed to an area 12 miles north of Portland

The variable in the timeline that was now being changed was the "timeline" of Cooper's departure.

Carr found and read these 302's in 2008-09 and he questioned on DZ if the timeline could be extended further. People analysing this matter in this discussion were R99, Sluggo, Snowmman, etc. Sluggo moved Cooper's DZ further south to the Orchard WA area. Sluggo said there were rumors of the FBI searching the Orchard area and Carr refused to comment publicly.

There is no evidence that 305 flew a straight line between Maylay and Canby! There is evidence that 305 crossed the Columbia near Hayden Island. In 1980 Cooper money was found at Tina Bar. In order for money to appear on Tina Bar it has to have originated in the Columbia basin if not in the Columbia itself. Since the money was last seen being roped around Cooper's waste, and Tina testified the bills offered her were put back in the bag, a simple adjustment of the timeline for Cooper bailing puts Cooper in the Columbia basin if not in the Columbia itself.

Second document attached in next post below -

georger · « **Reply #1468 on:** March 25, 2019, 04:08:59 PM »

San Francisco seminar and flight path/drop zone change announced - by Clyde Jabin

Shutter · « **Reply #1469 on:** March 25, 2019, 05:21:47 PM »

I give R99 a lot of credit with his background and as a stable good person. however, I just can't come to a conclusion by going against so much to make this theory work. too many involved to have got this that far off.

we have several going against the known flight path but for some reason we don't have any issue's coming from all who were there, as in civilian members going against military findings. everyone seems to have agreed and it's people outside of this circle that are not convinced? nobody from Portland or Seatac disagreeing with the location of 305 on that evening to each other or to the military..traffic controllers saying they never left the boundaries of V23. as Tom stated to me, how can the first part of the path be good and the rest bad?

I need a whole lot more to make this theory plausible IMHO.

Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues (Read 746921 times)

Shutter

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fcastle866

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Shutter

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Shutter

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georger

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georger

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EU

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Shutter

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Shutter

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EU

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Shutter

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Shutter

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georger

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georger

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Shutter

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