Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 747943 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1440 on: March 24, 2019, 12:28:56 PM »
again, I understand Roberts theory. I even flew it and it doesn't "fly" it makes a lot of sense but to go against just about everything is tough. it's basically saying the military and the pilots of 305 were either lying or didn't belong in the sky using instrumentation only.

I don't have a suspect that needs this to work!
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 12:29:32 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1441 on: March 24, 2019, 12:31:36 PM »
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again, I understand Roberts theory. I even flew it and it doesn't "fly" it makes a lot of sense but to go against just about everything is tough. it's basically saying the military and the pilots of 305 were either lying or didn't belong in the sky using instrumentation only.

I don't have a suspect that needs this to work!

The pilots of 305 didn't know "precisely" where the jet was or where it flew. Hence, "you may want to note this spot on your maps...our friend may have just taken leave of us."
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1442 on: March 24, 2019, 12:33:05 PM »
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again, I understand Roberts theory. I even flew it and it doesn't "fly" it makes a lot of sense but to go against just about everything is tough. it's basically saying the military and the pilots of 305 were either lying or didn't belong in the sky using instrumentation only.

I don't have a suspect that needs this to work!

The pilots of 305 didn't know "precisely" where the jet was or where it flew. Hence, "you may want to note this spot on your maps...our friend may have just taken leave of us."


Yes, and the area was noted and that's where the search began. it changed several times due to incoming information. it was nowhere near Tbar.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1443 on: March 24, 2019, 12:33:58 PM »
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again, I understand Roberts theory. I even flew it and it doesn't "fly" it makes a lot of sense but to go against just about everything is tough. it's basically saying the military and the pilots of 305 were either lying or didn't belong in the sky using instrumentation only.

I don't have a suspect that needs this to work!

Also, where did you come up short when you flew it via the simulator? Where was the jet at 8:12PM? My analysis puts it at just south of St. Helens, OR.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1444 on: March 24, 2019, 12:34:52 PM »
They have a navigator. I believe it was not known exactly where he jumped once they landed. I don't buy the fact of them flying blind!!!
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1445 on: March 24, 2019, 12:54:57 PM »
I'll also say that people are not infallible. Even experts. An example of this can be found in the Palmer Report. Dr. Palmer got it wrong as proven by Tom Kaye with the help of Mother Nature who stripped away a significant length of Tena Bar and afforded TK the opportunity to see the strata running the length of the beach in 2008.

The problem is that the FBI flight path appeared to involve some level of conjecture. That said, the actual evidence--placard find, money find--is concrete. Furthermore, the fact that the search area is several miles downstream from Tena Bar is concrete. And, the fact that not a shred of anything has been found in the search area after more than 47 years is also concrete.

These concrete facts tell a story. Unfortunately, it doesn't bode well for the FBI's flight path. Perhaps, just perhaps, the FBI got the flight path wrong just as they got the Tena Bar dredge layer analysis wrong?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1446 on: March 24, 2019, 01:20:25 PM »
nothing concrete in any of this...

We have multiple radars watching 305 all the way to Norad. military aircraft chasing the plane, with radar. the Sage radar as well. The Air Force plotted the course given to the FBI. why or how could they be wrong with multiple radars? the placard in no way works for the original path, concrete against it?

I said this before. it's like reading an old cold case where 10 people say the suspect goes in the front door and now people believe they went in through the back?

Then you want to believe Roberts theory BUT, not the no pull part of it because the suspect needs to survive.....

In the middle of staining my french door....
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 01:21:56 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1447 on: March 24, 2019, 01:43:13 PM »
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nothing concrete in any of this...

We have multiple radars watching 305 all the way to Norad. military aircraft chasing the plane, with radar. the Sage radar as well. The Air Force plotted the course given to the FBI. why or how could they be wrong with multiple radars? the placard in no way works for the original path, concrete against it?

I said this before. it's like reading an old cold case where 10 people say the suspect goes in the front door and now people believe they went in through the back?

Then you want to believe Roberts theory BUT, not the no pull part of it because the suspect needs to survive.....

In the middle of staining my french door....

I am unaware of anything that states SAGE radar was used.

The FBI also admitted that the flight path was wrong inasmuch as they adjusted the flight path and search area to bring it over the Washougal area after Palmer's report. Somebody got something wrong somewhere.

I do not need my suspect to live. That is backwards. The evidence--Tena Bar packets--indicate that Cooper lived. Plus the fact that nothing else--no body, no money, no parachute, no dummy reserve, no attache' case--was ever found also indicates Cooper lived.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1448 on: March 24, 2019, 01:50:07 PM »
I think the odds are good he survived but you can't state anything without knowing where and when he jumped when it come to evidence. it's hard to dismiss what you don't know.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1449 on: March 24, 2019, 02:22:17 PM »
Quote
I am unaware of anything that states SAGE radar was used.

The Sage radar tracks anything hostile. I'm not sure if it's in the files or not. I can't remember at the moment. it's always running to protect the country.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1450 on: March 24, 2019, 02:23:47 PM »
EU, you called while I was on the phone. getting ready to have some dinner at the moment and talk with the police in a while about a break in to my shed. I'm a little busy today..
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1451 on: March 24, 2019, 02:59:06 PM »
From Tom's site titled "Research Conclusion"

The FBI flight path map passes the test. Agents working on the flight path in 1971 had the radar and flight path data which is lost today. The SAGE radar used to track Cooper's plane was relied upon to identify, locate and track incoming Russian bombers and threats to the United States, so there is no reason to assume they would get it wrong. Analysis of various features of this case rule out the theories that require a different flight path than the one portrayed on the FBI map. Lastly, the text descriptions in the FBI 302 link the flight path to various towns. This research finds that the flight path and jump zone are reasonable and should be a cornerstone in the analysis of this case.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1452 on: March 24, 2019, 03:29:47 PM »
They also used the information on the planes flight data recorder. this could probably be matched up to the flight path made by the Air Force. it's a lot of concrete to bust in changing the path IMHO.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 03:30:50 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1453 on: March 24, 2019, 04:14:38 PM »
Quote
The FBI also admitted that the flight path was wrong inasmuch as they adjusted the flight path and search area to bring it over the Washougal area after Palmer's report.

Where is information regarding this and when did they start another search in the 80's? quoting Ralph would not properly be speaking for the FBI in it's entirety? I don't believe the FBI has ever changed the official flight path?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 04:16:22 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1454 on: March 24, 2019, 08:45:38 PM »
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From Tom's site titled "Research Conclusion"

The FBI flight path map passes the test. Agents working on the flight path in 1971 had the radar and flight path data which is lost today. The SAGE radar used to track Cooper's plane was relied upon to identify, locate and track incoming Russian bombers and threats to the United States, so there is no reason to assume they would get it wrong. Analysis of various features of this case rule out the theories that require a different flight path than the one portrayed on the FBI map. Lastly, the text descriptions in the FBI 302 link the flight path to various towns. This research finds that the flight path and jump zone are reasonable and should be a cornerstone in the analysis of this case.

I've attached a two page PowerPoint with some screen shots on the flight path.  When I first got into this case, I really took an interest in the flight path, more so to determine jump time (8:12-8:13 etc.) and landing spot (Ariel, more south, etc.).  I did not spend much time thinking about the money find at that point.  With that said, I don't desire to get into a back and forth, but rather maybe use this as an opportunity to engage in some good dialogue on some of the little details.  The little details matter sometimes, sometimes they don't.  In this discussion about the placard, I think the FBI flight path is generally correct. Whether the placard was found to the east or west of it is not a huge deal to me, in that it would only have been a little east or west, therefore confirming that at this point in the flight that the FBI flight path was accurate.  However, the correct flight path further into the flight is still a question to many people.

So, if you look at the attachment, you'll see screen shots of where I place the placard, and where another person places the placard.  Our spots are different, but they are close.  I'll defer to his spot over mine given his background in the case.  Now, the other shot on that page is from Citizen Sleuths.  I can't place their picture on the map.  The terrain features (sand) just don't match up with what I've seen.  I'd be curious to see if anyone with more time can maybe mess around with the GPS coordinates and the lat/long method and see what they come up with.  Those coordinates are on the attachment too.  I believe they are accurate, but I can not be certain (I got those offline a year ago and don't have the notes handy).

If my spot and the other person's spot are accurate, then the FBI flight path puts the placard east of the flight path.  If CS is accurate, then it puts the placard west of the path.

The second slide has a pic of the map I played with a year ago.  You'll see a straight line in pencil from Toutle to Pigeon Springs that is west of the placard find.  Regardless, these coordinates put the placard find generally on the FBI flight path, and I don't feel the need to split hairs over if it was a little west or a little east.

Of note.  I always thought the placard was metal.  History did a show way back (the one with interviews from a passenger named Simmons).  Himmelsbach was young too.  They interview the hunter, and he says he picked up the placard, and folded it. Metal does not usually fold easily.  The re-enactment makes it look like it was paper.  Wind will do different things to paper than it will metal, of course.  So maybe a rate of descent with wind speed calculation should be done given the actual material.

My understanding is that the hunter was hunting on family land, so he had a pretty good idea of where he was.

Long post.  My apologies.  I'd be curious to see what people come up with, if they even care.  Probably just another rabbit hole. PDF not PP.  PP was too big.
 
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