Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 735865 times)

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1395 on: August 21, 2018, 04:03:23 PM »
If you adopt the FBI flight path, Rataczak's point of view (POV) changes as 305 approaches the Columbia/Portland. A different flight path will show a different configuration of Rat's POV in time.

R2 believes that Rat's observation had to have been "prior" to 305 crossing the Columbia because it was just north of Portland that R2 began communicating with 305 and the military in order to set both planes up for an intercept south of Portland near Lake Oswego. 305 and the T33 achieved their rendezvous!  If this is true, and R2 believes it is, then all of the events involving oscillations, bump, and Cooper leaving had to occur before the crew got busy communicating with R2 just north of Portland in order to set up his T33 intercept just below Portland minutes later. This T33 intercept draws a time line in the sand. If we had the transcript of ALL communications the events Rataczak and Anderson describe could be narrowed further.   

The T33 incidentally, launched from the Ntl Guard base at Portland Airport and was in the air flying a holding pattern waiting prior to 305 crossing the Columbia. Once 305 crossed the Columbia just west of Portland, the T33 turned and flew to its rendezvous point with 305 at Lake Oswego. This places constraints on where and when 305 was in terms of all prior events already expired. This incidentally is one argument against people who claim Cooper bailed over Oregon or later; these people never enter the T33 rendezvous into their calculations, which is a proven fact!   
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 04:17:31 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1396 on: August 21, 2018, 06:14:12 PM »
Where can I go to learn more about this T-33 out of Portland? I had thought that the T-33 was out of Mountain Home, Idaho, presumably IANG.
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1397 on: August 21, 2018, 07:09:32 PM »
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Where can I go to learn more about this T-33 out of Portland? I had thought that the T-33 was out of Mountain Home, Idaho, presumably IANG.
That T33 was definitely flown out of Portland ANG 142. That was my Unit from 1962 to 1968. At the time I was in the Unit was called 142 nd Combat Support. Now it’s the 142 Fighter wing. I’d like to note that the Regular Air Force had their Base there until they pulled out in about 1966 when ANG took over. I helped a fellow Letter Carrier dismantle several of the barracks which he attained the rights to via winning bid and reused the materials.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1398 on: August 21, 2018, 08:03:02 PM »
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Where can I go to learn more about this T-33 out of Portland? I had thought that the T-33 was out of Mountain Home, Idaho, presumably IANG.

Himmelsbach's book would be a good place to look.  He also got aboard a helicopter at PIA as he also describes in his book.  The origin of the T-33 is also discussed at extreme length in threads on this site in case you missed them.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1399 on: August 21, 2018, 11:35:03 PM »
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Where can I go to learn more about this T-33 out of Portland? I had thought that the T-33 was out of Mountain Home, Idaho, presumably IANG.

well it has been discussed at length over the years ... ever since R2 revealed it. I guess you never did interview R2; Hominid, Kaye, etc did after I did. R2 said the T33 was launched from the Ntl Guard base at Portland. R2 vectored the T33 to 305 near Oswego. If there are any discrepancies I can check my notes. 
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1400 on: August 21, 2018, 11:36:04 PM »
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Where can I go to learn more about this T-33 out of Portland? I had thought that the T-33 was out of Mountain Home, Idaho, presumably IANG.
That T33 was definitely flown out of Portland ANG 142. That was my Unit from 1962 to 1968. At the time I was in the Unit was called 142 nd Combat Support. Now it’s the 142 Fighter wing. I’d like to note that the Regular Air Force had their Base there until they pulled out in about 1966 when ANG took over. I helped a fellow Letter Carrier dismantle several of the barracks which he attained the rights to via winning bid and reused the materials.

Thanks! This T33 intercept at Oswego places a lower time limit on Cooper bailing. I guess we set the upper limit at the beginning of the oscillations ...  ?   :-\
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 11:39:05 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1401 on: August 22, 2018, 12:44:28 AM »
Im going to post this - may regret it. This chart was prepared years ago modifying a chart Sluggo had prepared when Sluggo was still at DZ; after my first conversation with R2. . . note that R2? told 305 to "wag" so the T33 could identify it. That note is included in this chart ...
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 12:48:28 AM by georger »
 
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FLYJACK

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1402 on: August 22, 2018, 09:02:04 AM »
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Where can I go to learn more about this T-33 out of Portland? I had thought that the T-33 was out of Mountain Home, Idaho, presumably IANG.
That T33 was definitely flown out of Portland ANG 142. That was my Unit from 1962 to 1968. At the time I was in the Unit was called 142 nd Combat Support. Now it’s the 142 Fighter wing. I’d like to note that the Regular Air Force had their Base there until they pulled out in about 1966 when ANG took over. I helped a fellow Letter Carrier dismantle several of the barracks which he attained the rights to via winning bid and reused the materials.

Thanks! This T33 intercept at Oswego places a lower time limit on Cooper bailing. I guess we set the upper limit at the beginning of the oscillations ...  ?   :-\

"This T33 intercept at Oswego places a lower time limit on Cooper bailing"


Why is that?

It assumes that Cooper could not have jumped undetected AND Cooper could not have jumped after the plane turned away before Eugene..

Not suggesting you are wrong, just interested in your reasoning.

.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 10:41:34 AM by FLYJACK »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1403 on: August 22, 2018, 01:00:02 PM »
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Where can I go to learn more about this T-33 out of Portland? I had thought that the T-33 was out of Mountain Home, Idaho, presumably IANG.
That T33 was definitely flown out of Portland ANG 142. That was my Unit from 1962 to 1968. At the time I was in the Unit was called 142 nd Combat Support. Now it’s the 142 Fighter wing. I’d like to note that the Regular Air Force had their Base there until they pulled out in about 1966 when ANG took over. I helped a fellow Letter Carrier dismantle several of the barracks which he attained the rights to via winning bid and reused the materials.

Thanks! This T33 intercept at Oswego places a lower time limit on Cooper bailing. I guess we set the upper limit at the beginning of the oscillations ...  ?   :-\

"This T33 intercept at Oswego places a lower time limit on Cooper bailing"


Why is that?

It assumes that Cooper could not have jumped undetected AND Cooper could not have jumped after the plane turned away before Eugene..

Not suggesting you are wrong, just interested in your reasoning.

.

Its an arbitrary line beyond which there is no physical evidence of Cooper or a jump. Some might place the line at 20:16-20. Some would use 20:13. But when 305 began to 'wag' freely as part of the T33 intercept Cooper did not appear on the interphone to complain - a number of people think had he been on board he definitely would have complained. Moreover the pilots did not reject or complain about being asked to perform that maneuver; they thought Cooper was gone and were confident enough about that that they wanted to go to the back to check if Cooper was there. (Several people claim they did!).

 
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1404 on: August 22, 2018, 01:15:47 PM »
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Where can I go to learn more about this T-33 out of Portland? I had thought that the T-33 was out of Mountain Home, Idaho, presumably IANG.
That T33 was definitely flown out of Portland ANG 142. That was my Unit from 1962 to 1968. At the time I was in the Unit was called 142 nd Combat Support. Now it’s the 142 Fighter wing. I’d like to note that the Regular Air Force had their Base there until they pulled out in about 1966 when ANG took over. I helped a fellow Letter Carrier dismantle several of the barracks which he attained the rights to via winning bid and reused the materials.

Thanks! This T33 intercept at Oswego places a lower time limit on Cooper bailing. I guess we set the upper limit at the beginning of the oscillations ...  ?   :-\

"This T33 intercept at Oswego places a lower time limit on Cooper bailing"


Why is that?

It assumes that Cooper could not have jumped undetected AND Cooper could not have jumped after the plane turned away before Eugene..

Not suggesting you are wrong, just interested in your reasoning.

.

Its an arbitrary line beyond which there is no physical evidence of Cooper or a jump. Some might place the line at 20:16-20. Some would use 20:13. But when 305 began to 'wag' freely as part of the T33 intercept Cooper did not appear on the interphone to complain - a number of people think had he been on board he definitely would have complained. Moreover the pilots did not reject or complain about being asked to perform that maneuver; they thought Cooper was gone and were confident enough about that that they wanted to go to the back to check if Cooper was there. (Several people claim they did!).

 

Thanks,,

Though the evidence suggests the most likely LZ was near the original FBI one..  I haven't ruled out the possibility that he jumped in the Willamette Valley.


I have pinpointed a precise location just N of Eugene and W of I5, but it is a real real long shot.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 01:17:46 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1405 on: August 22, 2018, 07:24:27 PM »

If anyone is ever in the area, the Evergreen Aviation and Space Museum in McMinnville, Oregon might be of interest to you Aviation Buffs. One of the OREGON ANG T33 was retired there as was Howard Hughes’s Spruce Goose and much more. It’s right on the way to Lincoln City from Portland. I think there’s a $8 charge to Tour last time I was,there.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1406 on: August 22, 2018, 10:15:31 PM »
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If anyone is ever in the area, the Evergreen Aviation and Space Museum in McMinnville, Oregon might be of interest to you Aviation Buffs. One of the OREGON ANG T33 was retired there as was Howard Hughes’s Spruce Goose and much more. It’s right on the way to Lincoln City from Portland. I think there’s a $8 charge to Tour last time I was,there.

I've been there it is an amazing place even for non Aviation Buffs.

Anybody know the land access laws in Oregon? I am looking at an uninhabited tree farm/harvesting property.
 

Offline 377

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1407 on: August 23, 2018, 09:15:21 AM »
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If anyone is ever in the area, the Evergreen Aviation and Space Museum in McMinnville, Oregon might be of interest to you Aviation Buffs. One of the OREGON ANG T33 was retired there as was Howard Hughes’s Spruce Goose and much more. It’s right on the way to Lincoln City from Portland. I think there’s a $8 charge to Tour last time I was,there.

I was skippering a commercial fishing boat off SF decades ago when I spotted on odd cargo on a barge being towed northbound. The unmistakable silhouette of the Hughes Flying Boat fuselage shrink wrapped in white plastic is a sight I’ll never forget. The wings were not attached.

I worked at Hughes Aircraft. We were told to never refer to it as the Spruce Goose which HH considered derogatory.

Regarding landing areas I can’t understand Reca’s Cle Elum claim. How bizzare. How did he expect that would be taken seriously? Was he even there that night? I doubt it. The “Cowboy” story may hdve been elicited by leading questions. 

I love air museums. In retirement I plan to visit many.

377

 
 
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1408 on: August 23, 2018, 01:01:20 PM »
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If anyone is ever in the area, the Evergreen Aviation and Space Museum in McMinnville, Oregon might be of interest to you Aviation Buffs. One of the OREGON ANG T33 was retired there as was Howard Hughes’s Spruce Goose and much more. It’s right on the way to Lincoln City from Portland. I think there’s a $8 charge to Tour last time I was,there.

I was skippering a commercial fishing boat off SF decades ago when I spotted on odd cargo on a barge being towed northbound. The unmistakable silhouette of the Hughes Flying Boat fuselage shrink wrapped in white plastic is a sight I’ll never forget. The wings were not attached.

I worked at Hughes Aircraft. We were told to never refer to it as the Spruce Goose which HH considered derogatory.

Regarding landing areas I can’t understand Reca’s Cle Elum claim. How bizzare. How did he expect that would be taken seriously? Was he even there that night? I doubt it. The “Cowboy” story may hdve been elicited by leading questions. 

I love air museums. In retirement I plan to visit many.

377
Wow ! That’s almost an unbelievable coincidence! Yes I’m sure Mr. Hughes wasn’t pleased with the “ Spruce Goose “
Phrase ! LOL
Reca’s Cle Elum story is so bizarre it doesn’t deserve a comment.
If you’re ever up in my area, give me a gingle as I’d love to meet you. We could gather up some local Cooperites and head up to the Museum. There’s a few around here !
 

Offline dice

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1409 on: August 23, 2018, 11:51:43 PM »
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If anyone is ever in the area, the Evergreen Aviation and Space Museum in McMinnville, Oregon might be of interest to you Aviation Buffs. One of the OREGON ANG T33 was retired there as was Howard Hughes’s Spruce Goose and much more. It’s right on the way to Lincoln City from Portland. I think there’s a $8 charge to Tour last time I was,there.

I was skippering a commercial fishing boat off SF decades ago when I spotted on odd cargo on a barge being towed northbound. The unmistakable silhouette of the Hughes Flying Boat fuselage shrink wrapped in white plastic is a sight I’ll never forget. The wings were not attached.

I worked at Hughes Aircraft. We were told to never refer to it as the Spruce Goose which HH considered derogatory.

Regarding landing areas I can’t understand Reca’s Cle Elum claim. How bizzare. How did he expect that would be taken seriously? Was he even there that night? I doubt it. The “Cowboy” story may hdve been elicited by leading questions. 

I love air museums. In retirement I plan to visit many.

377
Wow ! That’s almost an unbelievable coincidence! Yes I’m sure Mr. Hughes wasn’t pleased with the “ Spruce Goose “
Phrase ! LOL
Reca’s Cle Elum story is so bizarre it doesn’t deserve a comment.
If you’re ever up in my area, give me a gingle as I’d love to meet you. We could gather up some local Cooperites and head up to the Museum. There’s a few around here !

Yet it wasn't made from spruce ..
Purdue 38  Iowa 36