DB COOPER

General Category => DB Cooper => Topic started by: EU on June 14, 2018, 09:50:59 AM

Title: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 14, 2018, 09:50:59 AM
Sheridan Peterson.
https://thecoopercase.com/
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 14, 2018, 11:25:01 AM
I have not seen the full report, but how do you get yttrium on Sheridan? Even if Boeing had color CRTs, they are vacuum sealed and have no external phosphors. He was not working where tubes might be broken. Broken tubes have toxics and glass shards. They wouldn’t just be casually tossed in scrap bins. Sheridan had ALL the skills but I don’t see how he got ALL the tie elements. Scrap bins might have titanium, aluminum and bismuth but yttrium seems a real stretch.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 14, 2018, 11:57:00 AM
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I have not seen the full report, but how do you get yttrium on Sheridan? Even if Boeing had color CRTs, they are vacuum sealed and have no external phosphors. He was not working where tubes might be broken. Broken tubes have toxics and glass shards. They wouldn’t just be casually tossed in scrap bins. Sheridan had ALL the skills but I don’t see how he got ALL the tie elements. Scrap bins might have titanium, aluminum and bismuth but yttrium seems a real stretch.

377

Yes yttrium was used in cathode ray tubes as well as an additive for titanium and aluminum. It was also used in color TVs and radar hardware. Simply put, it was and is everywhere, including Boeing and at home. Regarding how a trace of it ended up on his tie, I don’t know. That said, it is very easy to put Sheridan and yttrium in the same room at the same time. E
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 14, 2018, 01:03:37 PM
How can you be so certain that the FBI didn't eliminate Sheridan Peterson as a viable suspect based on DNA tests? Silence doesn't necessarily mean it was a possible match. They did announce results on Duane Weber and LD Cooper DNA tests, but those were high publicity cases. When Sheridan was tested there was little or no press interest in him.

Your position that the FBI never cleared Sheridan on DNA is in dispute. Sheridan says in his July 2007 Smoke Jumper magazine article: "Several days later, one of the agents paid me a second visit. She assured me that there were no matches for my DNA."

I know Sheridan Peterson. He told me some wild tales about sport jumping in Vietnam during the war, something that I initially suspected was exaggerated or even made up. A friend who served in the RVN Army as a paratrooper and also made skydives with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club verified every last detail of Sheridan's account including DZ location, aircraft used and anecdotes about the clubs tyrannical leader Duffy. His stories about being in Beijing and witnessing the Tiananmen Square massacre were also met by some skepticism on my part but it later checked out through independent sources. In short, I have found him to be truthful. How can you be so sure he is not truthful about the FBI clearing him on DNA?

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 14, 2018, 01:25:05 PM
This is from the above referenced Smoke Jumper article authored by Sheridan: " Soon after the 1971 heist, agents visited his mother [Sheridan's ex] at her high school counseling office in Bakersfield, Calif. They wanted to know where her ex-spouse was; she said she had no idea.“Could he have been D.B. Cooper?” they asked. “Yes, that sounded like something he’d do,” she said.

Bitter ex trying to nail Sheridan or an accurate observation of his character?

Sheridan has no prior criminal record. He passed DOD and DOE security investigations for program clearances. Honorably discharged Marine, WW 2 vet. USFS Smoke Jumper. Civil rights worker in the South during the 1960s. Public School teacher. Hardly a shifty grifty background.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Parrotheadvol on June 14, 2018, 01:31:55 PM
Do you have verifiable proof for items 6 & 7? I learned a long time ago that just because someone says it, doesn't make it true, especially when it comes to D.B. Cooper suspects. The web site looks good though.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Parrotheadvol on June 14, 2018, 01:32:52 PM
377, is that article that you are referring to online anywhere? I'd like to read it.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 14, 2018, 01:55:19 PM
http://smokejumpers.com/documents/magazine_pdfs/056_Smokejumper_Issue_056_July_2007.pdf

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 14, 2018, 02:09:50 PM
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How can you be so certain that the FBI didn't eliminate Sheridan Peterson as a viable suspect based on DNA tests? Silence doesn't necessarily mean it was a possible match. They did announce results on Duane Weber and LD Cooper DNA tests, but those were high publicity cases. When Sheridan was tested there was little or no press interest in him.

Your position that the FBI never cleared Sheridan on DNA is in dispute. Sheridan says in his July 2007 Smoke Jumper magazine article: "Several days later, one of the agents paid me a second visit. She assured me that there were no matches for my DNA."

I know Sheridan Peterson. He told me some wild tales about sport jumping in Vietnam during the war, something that I initially suspected was exaggerated or even made up. A friend who served in the RVN Army as a paratrooper and also made skydives with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club verified every last detail of Sheridan's account including DZ location, aircraft used and anecdotes about the clubs tyrannical leader Duffy. His stories about being in Beijing and witnessing the Tiananmen Square massacre were also met by some skepticism on my part but it later checked out through independent sources. In short, I have found him to be truthful. How can you be so sure he is not truthful about the FBI clearing him on DNA?

377

I spoke multiple times with Mary Jean Fryar about Sheridan’s claims, and Bruce Smith’s claims, of negative DNA results. She verified that she DID NOT say that the FBI’s DNA analysis cleared Sheridan. She stated that once the DNA was taken it was sent in to be processed. At that point it is “RUC”—returned up on completion—thereby closing the task on her end. This means her job is done and that she is unlikely to receive any information about the results—by the way, which often take weeks or months to process. Therefore, she can’t even verify that his DNA was tested. I believe there simply was some miscommunication that led to Sheridan’s and Bruce’s claims.

That said, I investigated and determined that the FBI had in fact NOT publicly cleared Sheridan by virtue of his DNA test as they had done with both Weber and LD Cooper. So, I gave them a chance by reaching out to Ayn Dietrich-Williams and specifically asking about clearing him as had been done previously, therefore establishing a precedent. Dietrich-Williams responded by stating “out of respect for the privacy of individuals, the FBI does not typically comment on subjects in the NORJACK investigation.” It stands to reason, if the FBI had previously cleared Sheridan they would have reiterated that fact. Furthermore, it stands to reason if the DNA did clear Sheridan that they would have taken the opportunity to do that as well.

Not to put too fine a point on it but consider this: Sheridan’s DNA was submitted in 2003, Larry Carr, the former point agent on the NORJACK case, as you well know, actually struck up a brief correspondence with Sheridan and purchased his book several years later—approximately 2010. Why would Carr do this if the DNA had cleared Sheridan years earlier? The implication is that at a minimum the test wasn’t processed. However, this seems highly unlikely especially when you consider that the FBI actually investigated Sheridan’s time in Deer Park, Washington and Nepal—no easy task.

None of this is proof that the DNA was processed or that it came back as a hit. However, in totality, the implication is suspect and I have proven that the FBI hasn’t cleared Sheridan publicly and that the FBI has remained remarkably silent regarding Sheridan for some reason.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 14, 2018, 02:23:39 PM
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Do you have verifiable proof for items 6 & 7? I learned a long time ago that just because someone says it, doesn't make it true, especially when it comes to D.B. Cooper suspects. The web site looks good though.

Without getting into specifics here, the context of the proof is significant. It is important to remember that unlike many other Cooper suspects, Sheridan has not claimed to be Cooper. In fact, he has been very coy when asked directly about being Cooper whether by me or the FBI. It helps to know the man and his mannerisms which I do get into in the report. 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: fcastle866 on June 14, 2018, 03:35:31 PM
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http://smokejumpers.com/documents/magazine_pdfs/056_Smokejumper_Issue_056_July_2007.pdf

377
Thanks for posting 377.  Great article, written by Peterson himself.  The below is a passage that stuck with me:

“Absolutely,” I said. “First of all, I’d have known which
chute and reserve to take. Besides,” I added, “I would have had
an altimeter and a stopwatch and had an approximate idea of
the elevation of the terrain.
“I would also have insisted upon a helmet and have been
wearing boots and warm clothing. And above all I’d have
gloves, warm gloves. What’s more, I’d have needed a flashlight
to spot my landing."
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 14, 2018, 03:40:35 PM
By his own admission on the History Channel special, "everything pointed to me, everything."

But getting to know Sheridan doesn't reveal a sociopath, quite the contrary. He cares very deeply about people, especially those he views as victims of a system he sees as uncaring, cruel, racist, warmongering and elitist. He saw a friend reduced to a pile of smoldering ashes by a white phosphorous bombing attack in Vietnam. Might that engender a grudge? Of course.

Can I see him credibly threatening to blow up innocent NWA 727 crew members just for money? Nope. Could I be fooled? Sure, but having dealt with many criminals in my years as a defense lawyer, including some very intelligent and clever ones, Sheridan just doesn't fit the mold. None of them cared about less fortunate people. It was all about them. It was all about "getting over on someone", "pulling it off", "sticking it to the man". Sheridan has never come across like those people. If you look at NORJACK as a political crime, however, then maybe the common criminal stereotypes are irrelevant.

FBI SA Mary Jean Fryar found him fascinating. She's right. My wife agrees also. He is a deep thinker, complex and a bit mysterious. He is a highly skilled parachutist and absolutely fearless about trying risky variations and alternatives to standard jump practices. The gear he jumped in China was appalling, no cutaway releases and questionable construction quality. His bat wings were dangerous as hell. Many prior experimenters died. He'd jump right now at age 92 if a DZ would allow it. 

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 14, 2018, 03:44:21 PM
In my opinion, Cooper DID pick the right chute. Was it a reasoned choice or just a 50-50 random pick? We don't know. But a mil spec C-9 is way better than any commercial canopy of the day, especially for a high speed deployment. That's what I would have selected.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Kermit on June 14, 2018, 04:08:13 PM
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http://smokejumpers.com/documents/magazine_pdfs/056_Smokejumper_Issue_056_July_2007.pdf

377
Thanks for posting 377.  Great article, written by Peterson himself.  The below is a passage that stuck with me:

“Absolutely,” I said. “First of all, I’d have known which
chute and reserve to take. Besides,” I added, “I would have had
an altimeter and a stopwatch and had an approximate idea of
the elevation of the terrain.
“I would also have insisted upon a helmet and have been
wearing boots and warm clothing. And above all I’d have
gloves, warm gloves. What’s more, I’d have needed a flashlight
to spot my landing."

I’ve been saying from day 1 “ I’ve never gone on a hunting trip without a compass and an altimiter”.It goes without saying a flashlight is a must ! However what so many are overlooking is he also brought along a bag ! Why? What was in the bag? I carried my altimiter and compass in my pocket so i could constantly check the direction and elevation I was hunting in. It’s absurd to think he carried this bag along with nothing in it ! I always carried a back pack with an extra clip for my rifle, small flashlight, extra pair of wool socks,wool gloves and perhaps some jerky etc. Those items are all small and necessary if you get wet ! Let’s stop forgetting about his extra bag that is documented by everyone on plane.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 14, 2018, 04:22:40 PM
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http://smokejumpers.com/documents/magazine_pdfs/056_Smokejumper_Issue_056_July_2007.pdf

377
Thanks for posting 377.  Great article, written by Peterson himself.  The below is a passage that stuck with me:

“Absolutely,” I said. “First of all, I’d have known which
chute and reserve to take. Besides,” I added, “I would have had
an altimeter and a stopwatch and had an approximate idea of
the elevation of the terrain.
“I would also have insisted upon a helmet and have been
wearing boots and warm clothing. And above all I’d have
gloves, warm gloves. What’s more, I’d have needed a flashlight
to spot my landing."

I’ve been saying from day 1 “ I’ve never gone on a hunting trip without a compass and an altimiter”.It goes without saying a flashlight is a must ! However what so many are overlooking is he also brought along a bag ! Why? What was in the bag? I carried my altimiter and compass in my pocket so i could constantly check the direction and elevation I was hunting in. It’s absurd to think he carried this bag along with nothing in it ! I always carried a back pack with an extra clip for my rifle, small flashlight, extra pair of wool socks,wool gloves and perhaps some jerky etc. Those items are all small and necessary if you get wet ! Let’s stop forgetting about his extra bag that is documented by everyone on plane.

I investigated the bag heavily. As is typical with this case there was some variance in the descriptions: light yellow, pink, paper, canvas, etc.

The one thing that strikes me as odd is that there apparently wasn't anything printed on the bag. In other words, an odd-sized plain bag. I was hoping to attribute it to a certain region, ideally Nepal, but ultimately was unsuccessful. One thing seems likely though; something was in the bag.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: fcastle866 on June 14, 2018, 05:51:10 PM
Sheridan Peterson as a suspect beats Reca hands down, and those guys got a news conference and a book.  The smoke jumper angle is great.  Would make for a great movie.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 14, 2018, 06:05:58 PM
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Sheridan Peterson as a suspect beats Reca hands down, and those guys got a news conference and a book.  The smoke jumper angle is great.  Would make for a great movie.

The Washington Post has asked for an interview along with some other media interest from the Pacific Northwest. A documentary is in the works.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 14, 2018, 06:12:04 PM
Not too hard to beat Reca with his absurd claim about where he landed. Sheridan has never claimed to be Cooper, quite the contrary. He has opined that Cooper was "stupid" and that he died in the jump. He even thinks he knows where Cooper's body ended up which interestingly also conflicts with the generally accepted flight path data.

Sheridan has written a moving book, The Idiots Frightful Laughter which I have read at least part of. There may be a subsequent part that I have not yet seen. A skillful and gifted screenwriter and director could craft a very interesting movie based on the book, which is about the Vietnam war and I think also about Sheridan's life. The DB Cooper aura and possibilities could create some cool atmospherics. It could have shades of Apocalypse Now. Instead of surfing in a war zone you could have skydiving, which really occurred. If Cooper's grudge came out of war crime horrors he witnessed in Vietnam, how lucky we were that it manifested itself in a no injury money heist rather than a murderous revenge.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on June 14, 2018, 07:00:43 PM
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Not too hard to beat Reca with his absurd claim about where he landed. Sheridan has never claimed to be Cooper, quite the contrary. He has opined that Cooper was "stupid" and that he died in the jump. He even thinks he knows where Cooper's body ended up which interestingly also conflicts with the generally accepted flight path data.

Sheridan has written a moving book, The Idiots Frightful Laughter which I have read at least part of. There may be a subsequent part that I have not yet seen. A skillful and gifted screenwriter and director could craft a very interesting movie based on the book, which is about the Vietnam war and I think also about Sheridan's life. The DB Cooper aura and possibilities could create some cool atmospherics. It could have shades of Apocalypse Now. Instead of surfing in a war zone you could have skydiving, which really occurred. If Cooper's grudge came out of war crime horrors he witnessed in Vietnam, how lucky we were that it manifested itself in a no injury money heist rather than a murderous revenge.

377

377,

Would you care to amplify on the first paragraph above?

Also, do you have the dates for Sheridan's employment at Boeing and the building that he worked in?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: MEYDC on June 14, 2018, 07:28:22 PM
I think Sheridan Peterson is a good suspect. I would love to know about the DNA tests that were done. They need to find those cigarette butts, or try some of the Cooper hair samples. I think that a deceased member of this forum would be happy that his suspect is being mentioned and investigated further by somebody.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 14, 2018, 07:43:19 PM
I recall something about Sheridan opining that Cooper's body was likely underwater behind the Dalles Dam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dalles_Dam

Don't know for sure which Boeing bldg(s) he worked in. Sailshaw claimed to know. Might look up some of Sailshaw's posts with the key words "scrap bins". He claimed Sheridan walked right by the scrap bins on the way to his work desk. He said that titanium, aluminum and other tie elements were common in those bins and that employees often scavenged stuff for personal use.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 14, 2018, 07:44:13 PM
MEYDC wrote: "I think that a deceased member of this forum would be happy that his suspect is being mentioned and investigated further by somebody."

Sailshaw would be delighted, for sure. When I met him in person he couldn't understand why I thought for one second that Peterson might not be Cooper. To him it was a slam dunk. Zero doubt.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Kermit on June 14, 2018, 08:00:35 PM
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I recall something about Sheridan opining that Cooper's body was likely underwater behind the Dalles Dam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dalles_Dam

Don't know for sure which Boeing bldg(s) he worked in. Sailshaw claimed to know. Might look up some of Sailshaw's posts with the key words "scrap bins". He claimed Sheridan walked right by the scrap bins on the way to his work desk. He said that titanium, aluminum and other tie elements were common in those bins and that employees often scavenged stuff for personal use.

377

Now how would it be possible for Cooper’s body to be behind the Dalles Dam ! Does he realize there’s Bonneville Dam downstream many miles from the Dalles Dam ? Did a huge fish gobble up his body and swallow him and them makes it’s way up the Bonneville locks and deposit his body behind the Dalles Dam which would require this huge fish to them also work its way over the Dalles locks ? Another tall tale that has no basis in reality !
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 14, 2018, 08:04:46 PM
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Not too hard to beat Reca with his absurd claim about where he landed. Sheridan has never claimed to be Cooper, quite the contrary. He has opined that Cooper was "stupid" and that he died in the jump. He even thinks he knows where Cooper's body ended up which interestingly also conflicts with the generally accepted flight path data.

Sheridan has written a moving book, The Idiots Frightful Laughter which I have read at least part of. There may be a subsequent part that I have not yet seen. A skillful and gifted screenwriter and director could craft a very interesting movie based on the book, which is about the Vietnam war and I think also about Sheridan's life. The DB Cooper aura and possibilities could create some cool atmospherics. It could have shades of Apocalypse Now. Instead of surfing in a war zone you could have skydiving, which really occurred. If Cooper's grudge came out of war crime horrors he witnessed in Vietnam, how lucky we were that it manifested itself in a no injury money heist rather than a murderous revenge.

377

377,

Would you care to amplify on the first paragraph above?

Also, do you have the dates for Sheridan's employment at Boeing and the building that he worked in?

He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 14, 2018, 08:23:17 PM
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I recall something about Sheridan opining that Cooper's body was likely underwater behind the Dalles Dam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dalles_Dam

Don't know for sure which Boeing bldg(s) he worked in. Sailshaw claimed to know. Might look up some of Sailshaw's posts with the key words "scrap bins". He claimed Sheridan walked right by the scrap bins on the way to his work desk. He said that titanium, aluminum and other tie elements were common in those bins and that employees often scavenged stuff for personal use.

377

Now how would it be possible for Cooper’s body to be behind the Dalles Dam ! Does he realize there’s Bonneville Dam downstream many miles from the Dalles Dam ? Did a huge fish gobble up his body and swallow him and them makes it’s way up the Bonneville locks and deposit his body behind the Dalles Dam which would require this huge fish to them also work its way over the Dalles locks ? Another tall tale that has no basis in reality !

This is one of those situations where knowing Sheridan provides some insight. Here is what I mean: Obviously the Dallas Dam is not even close to Tena Bar--many miles upstream. I asked him where this theory came from based upon the facts as we know them and he quickly relented by stating he was mistaken and doesn't know all the facts like the Cooper "addicts." This statement was made to imply that he doesn't really know much about the Cooper case, which is not true. Also, talk of the Dallas Dam is so off-base and obviously wrong it reminds me of the tactic that Cooper used when he told the pilots to fly to Mexico City without stopping anywhere in the US to refuel. Cooper knew well that the range of the 727 in the configuration he demanded would not get them anywhere close to Mexico City without a fuel stop. Cooper's intent, as was Sheridan's, was to plant a seed in the minds of investigators that he had know idea what he was doing and that the skyjacking was the by-product of a half-baked plan from a guy with little to no knowledge about the 727 and parachuting. Again, Sheridan has attempted the same thing with me and others many times when questioned about Cooper.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 14, 2018, 09:35:57 PM
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I recall something about Sheridan opining that Cooper's body was likely underwater behind the Dalles Dam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dalles_Dam

Don't know for sure which Boeing bldg(s) he worked in. Sailshaw claimed to know. Might look up some of Sailshaw's posts with the key words "scrap bins". He claimed Sheridan walked right by the scrap bins on the way to his work desk. He said that titanium, aluminum and other tie elements were common in those bins and that employees often scavenged stuff for personal use.

377

Now how would it be possible for Cooper’s body to be behind the Dalles Dam ! Does he realize there’s Bonneville Dam downstream many miles from the Dalles Dam ? Did a huge fish gobble up his body and swallow him and them makes it’s way up the Bonneville locks and deposit his body behind the Dalles Dam which would require this huge fish to them also work its way over the Dalles locks ? Another tall tale that has no basis in reality !

The giant Columbia River sturgeon are legendary. Big as subs. 😉

http://www.omakchronicle.com/news/2017/oct/28/anglers-can-retain-sturgeon-oct-28-columbia-river/

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 14, 2018, 11:58:56 PM
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Sheridan Peterson as a suspect beats Reca hands down, and those guys got a news conference and a book.  The smoke jumper angle is great.  Would make for a great movie.

The Washington Post has asked for an interview along with some other media interest from the Pacific Northwest. A documentary is in the works.

Hope they cover the fact SP was eliminated by the FBI on dna. But they will go ahead. Diehards never die, they just move to a new city and start up again before retiring on welfare.
 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on June 15, 2018, 12:29:53 AM
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Not too hard to beat Reca with his absurd claim about where he landed. Sheridan has never claimed to be Cooper, quite the contrary. He has opined that Cooper was "stupid" and that he died in the jump. He even thinks he knows where Cooper's body ended up which interestingly also conflicts with the generally accepted flight path data.

Sheridan has written a moving book, The Idiots Frightful Laughter which I have read at least part of. There may be a subsequent part that I have not yet seen. A skillful and gifted screenwriter and director could craft a very interesting movie based on the book, which is about the Vietnam war and I think also about Sheridan's life. The DB Cooper aura and possibilities could create some cool atmospherics. It could have shades of Apocalypse Now. Instead of surfing in a war zone you could have skydiving, which really occurred. If Cooper's grudge came out of war crime horrors he witnessed in Vietnam, how lucky we were that it manifested itself in a no injury money heist rather than a murderous revenge.

377

377,

Would you care to amplify on the first paragraph above?

Also, do you have the dates for Sheridan's employment at Boeing and the building that he worked in?

He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.

Was Org2-5000 located at Boeing Field, the same location as the Museum of Flight?  Or was it located at another site.

The test flying on the Boeing 727 was done in the time frame you listed for SP's employment at Boeing.  It is my guess at this point (no solid proof yet) that the FAA required at least a demonstration of the 727's capabilities to takeoff and land with the aft stairs "floating" down but unlocked for certification.  This demonstration could be done in one flight.  Anyone witnessing this takeoff and landing would know, as Cooper claimed to know, that the 727 could takeoff with the aft stairs down (but not locked).
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: MEYDC on June 15, 2018, 07:04:32 AM
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Sheridan Peterson as a suspect beats Reca hands down, and those guys got a news conference and a book.  The smoke jumper angle is great.  Would make for a great movie.

The Washington Post has asked for an interview along with some other media interest from the Pacific Northwest. A documentary is in the works.

Hope they cover the fact SP was eliminated by the FBI on dna. But they will go ahead. Diehards never die, they just move to a new city and start up again before retiring on welfare.
 
The OP is saying that he wasn't eliminated. He says that 3 people were tested for DNA Weber, LD, and Sheridan, LD and Weber were eliminated and made publicly the results. Sheridan's results were not made public. I had thought that he had been eliminated as well.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on June 15, 2018, 09:35:45 AM
Sheridan Petersen ranks low on my list of suspects, not eliminated.. KC and Reca don't even make the list. There are probably thousands of suspects known and unknown that can be made to fit with circumstantial evidence. Some are just better than others..


Problems I have with SP..

Cooper - Latin/Mexican swarthy, marcelled "Nixon" like hair.

Cooper - needed instructions for rear stairs and then had trouble lowering them. Shows lack of knowledge/competence.

Cooper had jump experience but wasn't a top flight jumper. SP was TOO experienced.

SP was a high profile suspect, DNA was taken. DO we know it wasn't compared or just unconfirmed.

No clear exposure to tie environment.

and the totality of the circumstantial evidence that exists for SP is generally weak.



Until the FBI puts some dude on that plane, all we will have is circumstantial evidence.. some better than others.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: fcastle866 on June 15, 2018, 09:48:34 AM
My opinion is that the aft stairs are a red herring, as are the "rare particles" on the tie, and the Tena Bar money.  What if this was not some huge conspiracy, and the people that did it were not CIA, and they didn't work at Boeing and they weren't Special Ops?  By 1971, anyone who had been in World War II, Korea, or Vietnam, would have seen plenty of situations where planes operated in much worse conditions than with the aft stairs deployed.  There are plenty of stories of planes flying that were missing wings, engines, with pieces hanging off, etc.  All DB Cooper had to do was listen to one person tell a story of a plane flying with stairs deployed, it did not have to be a 727.  This hijacking was borderline amateur.  Why does everything have to lead back to Boeing, the CIA, paratroopers?  There were thousands of federal agents and other law enforcement looking at Boeing.  What are the chances that the guy worked there and then slipped through the cracks?  The FBI has solved almost every other case.  They did not just let Peterson or any other suspect off because they did not meet the height description.  If any of these suspects was DB Cooper, the FBI would have gotten them.  From my perspective, every time we point to Boeing or to Special Forces/paratroopers, we are all falling right into the confirmation bias trap.  Has anyone taken the Israeli "Red Team"/Tenth Man/Devils advocate approach?  What if it was none of these people?  What if the man who shot JFK was just a regular Marine who got lucky that day?  Regardless, I'm in this for the fun of the case.  Every new suspect or idea gets the blood flowing.  Thanks for all of it. EU, looks like some good reading coming soon in July.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 15, 2018, 11:03:22 AM
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Not too hard to beat Reca with his absurd claim about where he landed. Sheridan has never claimed to be Cooper, quite the contrary. He has opined that Cooper was "stupid" and that he died in the jump. He even thinks he knows where Cooper's body ended up which interestingly also conflicts with the generally accepted flight path data.

Sheridan has written a moving book, The Idiots Frightful Laughter which I have read at least part of. There may be a subsequent part that I have not yet seen. A skillful and gifted screenwriter and director could craft a very interesting movie based on the book, which is about the Vietnam war and I think also about Sheridan's life. The DB Cooper aura and possibilities could create some cool atmospherics. It could have shades of Apocalypse Now. Instead of surfing in a war zone you could have skydiving, which really occurred. If Cooper's grudge came out of war crime horrors he witnessed in Vietnam, how lucky we were that it manifested itself in a no injury money heist rather than a murderous revenge.

377

377,

Would you care to amplify on the first paragraph above?

Also, do you have the dates for Sheridan's employment at Boeing and the building that he worked in?

He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.

Was Org2-5000 located at Boeing Field, the same location as the Museum of Flight?  Or was it located at another site.

The test flying on the Boeing 727 was done in the time frame you listed for SP's employment at Boeing.  It is my guess at this point (no solid proof yet) that the FAA required at least a demonstration of the 727's capabilities to takeoff and land with the aft stairs "floating" down but unlocked for certification.  This demonstration could be done in one flight.  Anyone witnessing this takeoff and landing would know, as Cooper claimed to know, that the 727 could takeoff with the aft stairs down (but not locked).

Building 9-101
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: dice on June 15, 2018, 11:24:38 AM
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I think Sheridan Peterson is a good suspect. I would love to know about the DNA tests that were done. They need to find those cigarette butts, or try some of the Cooper hair samples. I think that a deceased member of this forum would be happy that his suspect is being mentioned and investigated further by somebody.

talking about Peterson is going backwards... Mucklow eliminated him....  hes as white as a slice of bread, with beaming blue eyes (yes, I know, they had brown contacts back then)
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: MEYDC on June 15, 2018, 12:52:35 PM
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I think Sheridan Peterson is a good suspect. I would love to know about the DNA tests that were done. They need to find those cigarette butts, or try some of the Cooper hair samples. I think that a deceased member of this forum would be happy that his suspect is being mentioned and investigated further by somebody.

talking about Peterson is going backwards... Mucklow eliminated him....  hes as white as a slice of bread, with beaming blue eyes (yes, I know, they had brown contacts back then)
I don't believe Mucklow had eliminated him. Actually he has olive skin.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 15, 2018, 01:13:33 PM
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My opinion is that the aft stairs are a red herring, as are the "rare particles" on the tie, and theTena Bar m oney.  What if this was not some huge conspiracy, and the people that did it were not CIA, and they didn't work at Boeing and they weren't Special Ops?  By 1971, anyone who had been in World War II, Korea, or Vietnam, would have seen plenty of situations where planes operated in much worse conditions than with the aft stairs deployed.  There are plenty of stories of planes flying that were missing wings, engines, with pieces hanging off, etc.  All DB Cooper had to do was listen to one person tell a story of a plane flying with stairs deployed, it did not have to be a 727.  This hijacking was borderline amateur.  Why does everything have to lead back to Boeing, the CIA, paratroopers?  There were thousands of federal agents and other law enforcement looking at Boeing.  What are the chances that the guy worked there and then slipped through the cracks?  The FBI has solved almost every other case.  They did not just let Peterson or any other suspect off because they did not meet the height description.  If any of these suspects was DB Cooper, the FBI would have gotten them.  From my perspective, every time we point to Boeing or to Special Forces/paratroopers, we are all falling right into the confirmation bias trap.  Has anyone taken the Israeli "Red Team"/Tenth Man/Devils advocate approach?  What if it was none of these people?  What if the man who shot JFK was just a regular Marine who got lucky that day?  Regardless, I'm in this for the fun of the case.  Every new suspect or idea gets the blood flowing.  Thanks for all of it. EU, looks like some good reading coming soon in July.

Basically I agree.

Why do you say the Tina Bar money is a red herring? You think it was a plant?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: fcastle866 on June 15, 2018, 01:54:16 PM
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Basically I agree.

Why do you say the Tina Bar money is a red herring? You think it was a plant?
[/quote]

Georger: I absolutely do not think the Tena Bar money was a plant.  I think it just ended up there.  Probably fell out of his pocket during the jump or was scattered on landing.  DB Cooper was not a detective, and he didn't write crime novels.  I just don't see him planting money there.  But, it's possible.  I personally think he got out of the area as soon as possible.  I'd really like to see someone track down a $20, because I think that someone had to have spent some of the money.  But all of that is for curiosity.

Without starting a series of back and forth comments, here is where I was coming from.  There is a concept in statistics/analysis called Design of Experiments (some of you could probably teach a class on it).  Within that is a concept called blocking.  Essentially, when doing an analysis, you block out one variable, and see what the results are without that variable.  I'm advocating "blocking" the money at Tena Bar. Take it out of all the analysis.  Then see what happens.  We know it was his money, we know it left the plane, we know it landed.  Leave it at that.  Analyze the case without it.  I'd block Boeing, and Special Ops too.

We know the FBI used technology.  We know that technology has advanced (DNA, electron microscopes).  However, was there ever a full blown analysis of the case?  Design of experiments? What if's? Removing bias? All of it.  The Navy SEAL's killed Bin Laden, but it was an analyst who found him.  I'd rather jump from a 727 than do the analysis, but I know the concept works.

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Kermit on June 15, 2018, 02:40:55 PM
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Basically I agree.

Why do you say the Tina Bar money is a red herring? You think it was a plant?

Georger: I absolutely do not think the Tena Bar money was a plant.  I think it just ended up there.  Probably fell out of his pocket during the jump or was scattered on landing.  DB Cooper was not a detective, and he didn't write crime novels.  I just don't see him planting money there.  But, it's possible.  I personally think he got out of the area as soon as possible.  I'd really like to see someone track down a $20, because I think that someone had to have spent some of the money.  But all of that is for curiosity.

Without starting a series of back and forth comments, here is where I was coming from.  There is a concept in statistics/analysis called Design of Experiments (some of you could probably teach a class on it).  Within that is a concept called blocking.  Essentially, when doing an analysis, you block out one variable, and see what the results are without that variable.  I'm advocating "blocking" the money at Tena Bar. Take it out of all the analysis.  Then see what happens.  We know it was his money, we know it left the plane, we know it landed.  Leave it at that.  Analyze the case without it.  I'd block Boeing, and Special Ops too.

We know the FBI used technology.  We know that technology has advanced (DNA, electron microscopes).  However, was there ever a full blown analysis of the case?  Design of experiments? What if's? Removing bias? All of it.  The Navy SEAL's killed Bin Laden, but it was an analyst who found him.  I'd rather jump from a 727 than do the analysis, but I know the concept works.
[/quote]

I like your way of thinking and see no reason to not ALSO pursue independent ideas.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 15, 2018, 02:44:31 PM
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Basically I agree.

Why do you say the Tina Bar money is a red herring? You think it was a plant?

Georger: I absolutely do not think the Tena Bar money was a plant.  I think it just ended up there.  Probably fell out of his pocket during the jump or was scattered on landing.  DB Cooper was not a detective, and he didn't write crime novels.  I just don't see him planting money there.  But, it's possible.  I personally think he got out of the area as soon as possible.  I'd really like to see someone track down a $20, because I think that someone had to have spent some of the money.  But all of that is for curiosity.

Without starting a series of back and forth comments, here is where I was coming from.  There is a concept in statistics/analysis called Design of Experiments (some of you could probably teach a class on it).  Within that is a concept called blocking.  Essentially, when doing an analysis, you block out one variable, and see what the results are without that variable.  I'm advocating "blocking" the money at Tena Bar. Take it out of all the analysis.  Then see what happens.  We know it was his money, we know it left the plane, we know it landed.  Leave it at that.  Analyze the case without it.  I'd block Boeing, and Special Ops too.

We know the FBI used technology.  We know that technology has advanced (DNA, electron microscopes).  However, was there ever a full blown analysis of the case?  Design of experiments? What if's? Removing bias? All of it.  The Navy SEAL's killed Bin Laden, but it was an analyst who found him.  I'd rather jump from a 727 than do the analysis, but I know the concept works.
[/quote]
[/quote]


wow! I couldnt agree more, with just about everything you say. Problem is we cant get to the data to do an analysis, or any kind! Prints, dna, etc. The money analysis (that could be done) doesn't go very deep. But I agree with your point of view! Thanks! 

something went wrong in posting this - cant get it to frame correctly. sorry.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 15, 2018, 02:50:42 PM
Kermit wrote:  "I'd rather jump from a 727 than do the analysis, but I know the concept works."

Now there is a man who has his priorities right.  ;)

Jumping tomorrow with HF, VHF and UHF voice and data comm gear. Also 5.8 GHz air to ground video. Live GPS telemetry and physio telemetry as well, heart rate and blood oxygen level.

Had Cooper been radio savvy (and Jo claims Duane was) he could have talked to the East Coast under canopy using a 3 watt radio powered by AA penlight batteries. 

Here is proof: (listen starting at 9:21)  https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58b08985be65947bf171e05e/t/5ae30bd670a6ad51b41e9126/1524829160668/Report2113.mp3/original/Report2113.mp3

377

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Lynn on June 17, 2018, 04:02:53 PM
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MEYDC wrote: "I think that a deceased member of this forum would be happy that his suspect is being mentioned and investigated further by somebody."

Sailshaw would be delighted, for sure. When I met him in person he couldn't understand why I thought for one second that Peterson might not be Cooper. To him it was a slam dunk. Zero doubt.

377
To be honest, I've never been able to eliminate Sheridan. And I LOVE the guy. But I keep coming back to him. If it was him, I think the reasons for not confessing could be both a sense of guilt about the affected crew, and the fact that he has heirs. If it's not him, though, someone should still do a story about his life. What a life.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Lynn on June 17, 2018, 04:10:41 PM
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I recall something about Sheridan opining that Cooper's body was likely underwater behind the Dalles Dam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dalles_Dam

Don't know for sure which Boeing bldg(s) he worked in. Sailshaw claimed to know. Might look up some of Sailshaw's posts with the key words "scrap bins". He claimed Sheridan walked right by the scrap bins on the way to his work desk. He said that titanium, aluminum and other tie elements were common in those bins and that employees often scavenged stuff for personal use.

377

Now how would it be possible for Cooper’s body to be behind the Dalles Dam ! Does he realize there’s Bonneville Dam downstream many miles from the Dalles Dam ? Did a huge fish gobble up his body and swallow him and them makes it’s way up the Bonneville locks and deposit his body behind the Dalles Dam which would require this huge fish to them also work its way over the Dalles locks ? Another tall tale that has no basis in reality !

This is one of those situations where knowing Sheridan provides some insight. Here is what I mean: Obviously the Dallas Dam is not even close to Tena Bar--many miles upstream. I asked him where this theory came from based upon the facts as we know them and he quickly relented by stating he was mistaken and doesn't know all the facts like the Cooper "addicts." This statement was made to imply that he doesn't really know much about the Cooper case, which is not true. Also, talk of the Dallas Dam is so off-base and obviously wrong it reminds me of the tactic that Cooper used when he told the pilots to fly to Mexico City without stopping anywhere in the US to refuel. Cooper knew well that the range of the 727 in the configuration he demanded would not get them anywhere close to Mexico City without a fuel stop. Cooper's intent, as was Sheridan's, was to plant a seed in the minds of investigators that he had know idea what he was doing and that the skyjacking was the by-product of a half-baked plan from a guy with little to no knowledge about the 727 and parachuting. Again, Sheridan has attempted the same thing with me and others many times when questioned about Cooper.
I was struck by the "extra" feature about SP on the History doc. His theories on why Cooper must have died were very close to the kind of thing Cossey was saying later in his life (and a far cry from what Cossey was saying on the History doc with Nimoy in 1979) and have been debunked by many skydivers on these forums over the years. It was like he wanted to encourage the idea that DBC was dead. With so many confessions over the years, Cooperites seem to forget that the real Cooper would have been better off "dead" in the eyes of the law. I'm not sure Sail was right about the letters - if Cooper benefited from appearing dead, the letters would counteract that - but I still see no reason apart from eye colour (confirmed by only one witness - the one most clearly in shock) to eliminate him. In fairness, though, I also have no firm reason to eliminate Gossett. Other suspects are much easier to rule out than those two and the gentleman whose daughter is still looking for him.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Lynn on June 17, 2018, 04:40:12 PM
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Sheridan Petersen ranks low on my list of suspects, not eliminated.. KC and Reca don't even make the list. There are probably thousands of suspects known and unknown that can be made to fit with circumstantial evidence. Some are just better than others..


Problems I have with SP..

Cooper - Latin/Mexican swarthy, marcelled "Nixon" like hair.

Cooper - needed instructions for rear stairs and then had trouble lowering them. Shows lack of knowledge/competence.

Cooper had jump experience but wasn't a top flight jumper. SP was TOO experienced.

SP was a high profile suspect, DNA was taken. DO we know it wasn't compared or just unconfirmed.

No clear exposure to tie environment.

and the totality of the circumstantial evidence that exists for SP is generally weak.



Until the FBI puts some dude on that plane, all we will have is circumstantial evidence.. some better than others.
I actually feel the reasons for eliminating Sheridan are far flimsier than the circumstantial evidence against him. Shaky alibi? Check.  Anyone missing him in the US at that time? Nope, because he was already abroad (could also be significant for laundering purposes - I'm pretty sure, say, Nepalese tellers were not all over the DBC hunt).

The swarthy complexion means - nothing, nothing, nothing. After 2 days in Thailand, I was dark as a coffee bean, and I never tanned a day before in my life with so much Irish blood I look like a mashed potato. After 5-6 years in Southeast Asia, SP HAD to be dark. I've lived in Asian. You will tan. You will burn. You will, if as fair as I, be sick as a dog first.

Marcelled hair, my ass. There, I've said it. That description comes from ONE witness who couldn't even correctly identify which FA sat next to DBC through most of the flight. Paint shop or no, I take everything that particular witness says with a massive dose of salt. I do think the outfit was probably a mismatched combo of black and brown, based on the Mitchell and Mucklow descriptions. Hair is the least consistent item in the witness descriptions.

Needed stair instructions - meh. Probably more familiar with the military model than the
civilian, or just never had to open the door himself before. Didn't need parachute instructions, though = not his first rodeo. I also don't see any evidence that Cooper wasn't a top jumper. "Too experienced" is not a problem for me. Besides, he could also be attempting to hide expertise, after already revealing he didn't need jump instructions, recognizing Portland from the air, and revealing he knew the oxygen location.

According to EU, two other suspects were CLEARED, but SP was not, exactly. They couldn't prove he was aboard, but their DNA is incomplete and not even surely Cooper's. Just because they can't convict him doesn't prove he didn't do it.

Exposure to tie environment - well, presuming (and we can't really presume this) the 3-yr-old tie wasn't purchased at the Portland Sally Ann on Nov 23, and was even Cooper's tie - the one element not explained by SP's background was a common element. It was probably on my dad's clothes - he repaired TVs and always had a half-dozen around with their tubes exposed. MY clothes could have contained that element.

I love Sheridan. But nothing has convinced me to eliminate him - except an eye colour confirmed by one (very much in shock) witness, who changed her story about when he donned the glasses in her interviews. Ditto Gossett, though with him I am concerned about alibi. I'm not very clear on whether his whereabouts for Nov 24 can be verified. (I also do not eliminate the possibility of Cooper's death; the story of the woman with the missing dad is compelling). Most suspects I have far less trouble eliminating. Which is not to say that ANY of the people named thus far did it.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Lynn on June 17, 2018, 04:43:44 PM
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I think Sheridan Peterson is a good suspect. I would love to know about the DNA tests that were done. They need to find those cigarette butts, or try some of the Cooper hair samples. I think that a deceased member of this forum would be happy that his suspect is being mentioned and investigated further by somebody.

talking about Peterson is going backwards... Mucklow eliminated him....  hes as white as a slice of bread, with beaming blue eyes (yes, I know, they had brown contacts back then)
Whoa, when did Mucklow eliminate him? She eliminated Rackstraw in the History doc. I have seen nothing anywhere to suggest she eliminated Peterson. And before anyone says she MUST have been shown his photo somewhere along the way - proof, or it didn't happen.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 17, 2018, 05:12:24 PM
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Sheridan Petersen ranks low on my list of suspects, not eliminated.. KC and Reca don't even make the list. There are probably thousands of suspects known and unknown that can be made to fit with circumstantial evidence. Some are just better than others..


Problems I have with SP..

Cooper - Latin/Mexican swarthy, marcelled "Nixon" like hair.

Cooper - needed instructions for rear stairs and then had trouble lowering them. Shows lack of knowledge/competence.

Cooper had jump experience but wasn't a top flight jumper. SP was TOO experienced.

SP was a high profile suspect, DNA was taken. DO we know it wasn't compared or just unconfirmed.

No clear exposure to tie environment.

and the totality of the circumstantial evidence that exists for SP is generally weak.



Until the FBI puts some dude on that plane, all we will have is circumstantial evidence.. some better than others.
I actually feel the reasons for eliminating Sheridan are far flimsier than the circumstantial evidence against him. Shaky alibi? Check.  Anyone missing him in the US at that time? Nope, because he was already abroad (could also be significant for laundering purposes - I'm pretty sure, say, Nepalese tellers were not all over the DBC hunt).

The swarthy complexion means - nothing, nothing, nothing. After 2 days in Thailand, I was dark as a coffee bean, and I never tanned a day before in my life with so much Irish blood I look like a mashed potato. After 5-6 years in Southeast Asia, SP HAD to be dark. I've lived in Asian. You will tan. You will burn. You will, if as fair as I, be sick as a dog first.

Marcelled hair, my ass. There, I've said it. That description comes from ONE witness who couldn't even correctly identify which FA sat next to DBC through most of the flight. Paint shop or no, I take everything that particular witness says with a massive dose of salt. I do think the outfit was probably a mismatched combo of black and brown, based on the Mitchell and Mucklow descriptions. Hair is the least consistent item in the witness descriptions.

Needed stair instructions - meh. Probably more familiar with the military model than the
civilian, or just never had to open the door himself before. Didn't need parachute instructions, though = not his first rodeo. I also don't see any evidence that Cooper wasn't a top jumper. "Too experienced" is not a problem for me. Besides, he could also be attempting to hide expertise, after already revealing he didn't need jump instructions, recognizing Portland from the air, and revealing he knew the oxygen location.

According to EU, two other suspects were CLEARED, but SP was not, exactly. They couldn't prove he was aboard, but their DNA is incomplete and not even surely Cooper's. Just because they can't convict him doesn't prove he didn't do it.

Exposure to tie environment - well, presuming (and we can't really presume this) the 3-yr-old tie wasn't purchased at the Portland Sally Ann on Nov 23, and was even Cooper's tie - the one element not explained by SP's background was a common element. It was probably on my dad's clothes - he repaired TVs and always had a half-dozen around with their tubes exposed. MY clothes could have contained that element.

I love Sheridan. But nothing has convinced me to eliminate him - except an eye colour confirmed by one (very much in shock) witness, who changed her story about when he donned the glasses in her interviews. Ditto Gossett, though with him I am concerned about alibi. I'm not very clear on whether his whereabouts for Nov 24 can be verified. (I also do not eliminate the possibility of Cooper's death; the story of the woman with the missing dad is compelling). Most suspects I have far less trouble eliminating. Which is not to say that ANY of the people named thus far did it.

As I started digging into Sheridan I determined two things had to be explored and reasonably well answered, otherwise, Sheridan may not be Cooper.

First, the DNA as I've mentioned in previous posts actually incriminates Sheridan given the FBI's silence on clarifying his results...unlike the only other compared suspects, Weber and LD. This is a fact.

Second, the eye color is very suspect per the following facts. Flo was the only flight attendant to see him without sunglasses, this at the very beginning when he handed her the note. About the time she sat down next to him he dawned dark sunglasses for the rest of the event. As anyone who has flown knows, aircraft are not particularly well lit which can make ascertaining true eye color difficult. Also, FBI files state that when discussing his eyes with a sketch artist Flo couldn't be certain. In fact, later FBI descriptions of Cooper state "possibly brown" as his eye color, not exactly a lot of certainty there. These facts indicate that the FBI really isn't sure what color his eyes were. It would be foolish to assume Cooper's eye color was brown, there is simply no proof to back that up.

Finally, we know as a fact Sheridan wasn't precluded from the FBI following up 30+ years later to gather DNA, blue eyes and all. The results of which, I might add, have never been publicly released. Why?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: fcastle866 on June 17, 2018, 06:18:13 PM
The only person to see his eyes was Flo?? And that was only for a few seconds? One does not confuse bright blue eyes with dark brown eyes.  Eyes are one of those things you don't usually forget.  From everything I've read and been told, he had very distinct dark brown eyes.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 17, 2018, 06:40:39 PM
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The only person to see his eyes was Flo?? And that was only for a few seconds? One does not confuse bright blue eyes with dark brown eyes.  Eyes are one of those things you don't usually forget.  From everything I've read and been told, he had very distinct dark brown eyes.

Yes, only Flo for a very brief period of time at the very beginning when she thought he was picking up on her and immediately after she sat down at which time she started writing down his demands...hence, "possibly brown." I would like to see other accounts of people talking about his very distinct brown eyes, that said, I know there aren't any.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: fcastle866 on June 17, 2018, 09:45:47 PM
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The only person to see his eyes was Flo?? And that was only for a few seconds? One does not confuse bright blue eyes with dark brown eyes.  Eyes are one of those things you don't usually forget.  From everything I've read and been told, he had very distinct dark brown eyes.

Yes, only Flo for a very brief period of time at the very beginning when she thought he was picking up on her and immediately after she sat down at which time she started writing down his demands...hence, "possibly brown." I would like to see other accounts of people talking about his very distinct brown eyes, that said, I know there aren't any.

The whole eye color piece probably belongs in its own thread.  I quickly looked through the books and notes I have, and could only find mention by Flo of his brown eyes.  Somehow all the narratives have him with brown eyes.  All the stories out there of his eyes being brown may possibly have come from just one quick look by a stewardess before he put his sunglasses on.  Amazing.  I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this one.  If you were him and had blue eyes, you would have been laughing to your grave as they searched for a man with brown eyes.  Or still laughing if you're alive.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 17, 2018, 10:57:35 PM
If the FBI was certain that Cooper had brown eyes, they would not have investigated a blue-eyed subject, let alone request a DNA sample and investigate his alibis.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 18, 2018, 12:00:10 AM
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If the FBI was certain that Cooper had brown eyes, they would not have investigated a blue-eyed subject, let alone request a DNA sample and investigate his alibis.

377

I dont agree - the FBI had many reasons to investigate Peterson. For one he fit the leading skills profile at the time.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 18, 2018, 12:11:10 AM
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If the FBI was certain that Cooper had brown eyes, they would not have investigated a blue-eyed subject, let alone request a DNA sample and investigate his alibis.

377


I dont agree - the FBI had many reasons to investigate Peterson.

Fact: Sheridan was one of only three suspects known to have had their DNA compared to Cooper-tie DNA.
Fact: Sheridan is the only one of the three that the FBI has not publicly cleared by virtue of this DNA comparison.
Fact: The FBI sent agents to investigate Sheridan--in the 2000s--in Nepal and Deer Park, WA.
Fact: As of two weeks ago--I asked--the FBI is still unwilling to clear Sheridan even though the case is administratively closed.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 18, 2018, 12:30:22 AM
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If the FBI was certain that Cooper had brown eyes, they would not have investigated a blue-eyed subject, let alone request a DNA sample and investigate his alibis.

377


I dont agree - the FBI had many reasons to investigate Peterson.

Fact: Sheridan was one of only three suspects known to have had their DNA compared to Cooper-tie DNA.
Fact: Sheridan is the only one of the three that the FBI has not publicly cleared by virtue of this DNA comparison.
Fact: The FBI sent agents to investigate Sheridan--in the 2000s--in Nepal and Deer Park, WA.
Fact: As of two weeks ago--I asked--the FBI is still unwilling to clear Sheridan even though the case is administratively closed.

And fact: Sheridan fits the skills set the FBI was most invested in investigating. That is supported by hundreds of 302s released so far.

I also doubt that one round alone, of comparing dna to a partial profile, is enough to eliminate-with-certainty any candidate. One round only would never strand up in Court in a situation where the comparison is being done with a partial. 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 18, 2018, 01:01:04 AM
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If the FBI was certain that Cooper had brown eyes, they would not have investigated a blue-eyed subject, let alone request a DNA sample and investigate his alibis.

377


I dont agree - the FBI had many reasons to investigate Peterson.

Fact: Sheridan was one of only three suspects known to have had their DNA compared to Cooper-tie DNA.
Fact: Sheridan is the only one of the three that the FBI has not publicly cleared by virtue of this DNA comparison.
Fact: The FBI sent agents to investigate Sheridan--in the 2000s--in Nepal and Deer Park, WA.
Fact: As of two weeks ago--I asked--the FBI is still unwilling to clear Sheridan even though the case is administratively closed.

And fact: Sheridan fits the skills set the FBI was most invested in investigating. That is supported by hundreds of 302s released so far.

I also doubt that one round alone, of comparing dna to a partial profile, is enough to eliminate-with-certainty any candidate. One round only would never strand up in Court in a situation where the comparison is being done with a partial.

The FBI isn't absolutely certain that the DNA on Cooper's tie is actually Cooper's. In fact, there are three donors--by definition,at least two are not Cooper. That said, the primary donor sample is from saliva, therefore, likely Cooper's DNA. However, the DNA is inadmissible in Court and is useless for purposes of a prosecution. It does limit the field of prospective suspects for investigative purposes though, perhaps even dramatically.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 18, 2018, 12:27:40 PM
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If the FBI was certain that Cooper had brown eyes, they would not have investigated a blue-eyed subject, let alone request a DNA sample and investigate his alibis.

377

I dont agree - the FBI had many reasons to investigate Peterson. For one he fit the leading skills profile at the time.

If the FBI was certain that DBC had brown eyes, why would they interrogate and take a DNA sample from a suspect who has the bluest eyes you will ever see? That tells me the FBI absolutely did not consider the brown eye evidence conclusive, but you disagree. Please explain your conclusion further Georger. Thanks.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on June 18, 2018, 12:31:40 PM
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Sheridan Petersen ranks low on my list of suspects, not eliminated.. KC and Reca don't even make the list. There are probably thousands of suspects known and unknown that can be made to fit with circumstantial evidence. Some are just better than others..


Problems I have with SP..

Cooper - Latin/Mexican swarthy, marcelled "Nixon" like hair.

Cooper - needed instructions for rear stairs and then had trouble lowering them. Shows lack of knowledge/competence.

Cooper had jump experience but wasn't a top flight jumper. SP was TOO experienced.

SP was a high profile suspect, DNA was taken. DO we know it wasn't compared or just unconfirmed.

No clear exposure to tie environment.

and the totality of the circumstantial evidence that exists for SP is generally weak.



Until the FBI puts some dude on that plane, all we will have is circumstantial evidence.. some better than others.
I actually feel the reasons for eliminating Sheridan are far flimsier than the circumstantial evidence against him. Shaky alibi? Check.  Anyone missing him in the US at that time? Nope, because he was already abroad (could also be significant for laundering purposes - I'm pretty sure, say, Nepalese tellers were not all over the DBC hunt).

The swarthy complexion means - nothing, nothing, nothing. After 2 days in Thailand, I was dark as a coffee bean, and I never tanned a day before in my life with so much Irish blood I look like a mashed potato. After 5-6 years in Southeast Asia, SP HAD to be dark. I've lived in Asian. You will tan. You will burn. You will, if as fair as I, be sick as a dog first.

Marcelled hair, my ass. There, I've said it. That description comes from ONE witness who couldn't even correctly identify which FA sat next to DBC through most of the flight. Paint shop or no, I take everything that particular witness says with a massive dose of salt. I do think the outfit was probably a mismatched combo of black and brown, based on the Mitchell and Mucklow descriptions. Hair is the least consistent item in the witness descriptions.

Needed stair instructions - meh. Probably more familiar with the military model than the
civilian, or just never had to open the door himself before. Didn't need parachute instructions, though = not his first rodeo. I also don't see any evidence that Cooper wasn't a top jumper. "Too experienced" is not a problem for me. Besides, he could also be attempting to hide expertise, after already revealing he didn't need jump instructions, recognizing Portland from the air, and revealing he knew the oxygen location.

According to EU, two other suspects were CLEARED, but SP was not, exactly. They couldn't prove he was aboard, but their DNA is incomplete and not even surely Cooper's. Just because they can't convict him doesn't prove he didn't do it.

Exposure to tie environment - well, presuming (and we can't really presume this) the 3-yr-old tie wasn't purchased at the Portland Sally Ann on Nov 23, and was even Cooper's tie - the one element not explained by SP's background was a common element. It was probably on my dad's clothes - he repaired TVs and always had a half-dozen around with their tubes exposed. MY clothes could have contained that element.

I love Sheridan. But nothing has convinced me to eliminate him - except an eye colour confirmed by one (very much in shock) witness, who changed her story about when he donned the glasses in her interviews. Ditto Gossett, though with him I am concerned about alibi. I'm not very clear on whether his whereabouts for Nov 24 can be verified. (I also do not eliminate the possibility of Cooper's death; the story of the woman with the missing dad is compelling). Most suspects I have far less trouble eliminating. Which is not to say that ANY of the people named thus far did it.


So, let's see,,

Cooper,
wasn't swarthy, latin, olive, Mexican American or Native American, it was a tan.
the tie wasn't his or those tie particles are very common.
eyes were blue not brown.
hair wasn't marcelled or wavy (Alice Hancock also confirmed wavy hair..), he was balding.
a technical Boeing employee unable to operate rear airstairs even after instructions means nothing.
the FBI didn't publicly eliminate SP, evidence he is Cooper.

Now, those things may be individually possible, but in totality with all other evidence extremely unlikely. I wouldn't eliminate SP but in totality the circumstantial evidence is WEAK. There are thousands of people that can made into circumstantial suspects. Tens of thousands can be made into weak suspects.






Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 18, 2018, 12:53:16 PM
Flyjack wrote: "Tens of thousands can be made into weak suspects."

Finally, my chance to be a NORJACK suspect, albeit a weak one.

PRO:
Owned a 727 a flight manual prior to Nov. 1971
Traveled to Seattle Nov 71, prior to DBC skyjack.
Experienced jumping military surplus parachute gear.
Fascinated with Boeing aircraft, extensive library.
Starving student, $200K would have been quite useful.
Exposure to tie elements, worked in TV repair, exposed to broken color CRTs, worked in university experimental prototype machine shop.
Owned a black clip on tie and DBC type clasp.
Obsessed with jumping from unusual aircraft since 1968. Made a passenger jet jump in 2006.


CON:
Was 22 years old in Nov 71.
No grudges.
Had no way to know a 727 could be jumped.
Didn't smoke.
Didn't drink hard liquor.
6'2" height.
No night or off DZ jump experience in 71.

So Flyjack, can I be suspect no. 9999?

377

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 18, 2018, 01:04:42 PM
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Sheridan Petersen ranks low on my list of suspects, not eliminated.. KC and Reca don't even make the list. There are probably thousands of suspects known and unknown that can be made to fit with circumstantial evidence. Some are just better than others..


Problems I have with SP..

Cooper - Latin/Mexican swarthy, marcelled "Nixon" like hair.

Cooper - needed instructions for rear stairs and then had trouble lowering them. Shows lack of knowledge/competence.

Cooper had jump experience but wasn't a top flight jumper. SP was TOO experienced.

SP was a high profile suspect, DNA was taken. DO we know it wasn't compared or just unconfirmed.

No clear exposure to tie environment.

and the totality of the circumstantial evidence that exists for SP is generally weak.



Until the FBI puts some dude on that plane, all we will have is circumstantial evidence.. some better than others.
I actually feel the reasons for eliminating Sheridan are far flimsier than the circumstantial evidence against him. Shaky alibi? Check.  Anyone missing him in the US at that time? Nope, because he was already abroad (could also be significant for laundering purposes - I'm pretty sure, say, Nepalese tellers were not all over the DBC hunt).

The swarthy complexion means - nothing, nothing, nothing. After 2 days in Thailand, I was dark as a coffee bean, and I never tanned a day before in my life with so much Irish blood I look like a mashed potato. After 5-6 years in Southeast Asia, SP HAD to be dark. I've lived in Asian. You will tan. You will burn. You will, if as fair as I, be sick as a dog first.

Marcelled hair, my ass. There, I've said it. That description comes from ONE witness who couldn't even correctly identify which FA sat next to DBC through most of the flight. Paint shop or no, I take everything that particular witness says with a massive dose of salt. I do think the outfit was probably a mismatched combo of black and brown, based on the Mitchell and Mucklow descriptions. Hair is the least consistent item in the witness descriptions.

Needed stair instructions - meh. Probably more familiar with the military model than the
civilian, or just never had to open the door himself before. Didn't need parachute instructions, though = not his first rodeo. I also don't see any evidence that Cooper wasn't a top jumper. "Too experienced" is not a problem for me. Besides, he could also be attempting to hide expertise, after already revealing he didn't need jump instructions, recognizing Portland from the air, and revealing he knew the oxygen location.

According to EU, two other suspects were CLEARED, but SP was not, exactly. They couldn't prove he was aboard, but their DNA is incomplete and not even surely Cooper's. Just because they can't convict him doesn't prove he didn't do it.

Exposure to tie environment - well, presuming (and we can't really presume this) the 3-yr-old tie wasn't purchased at the Portland Sally Ann on Nov 23, and was even Cooper's tie - the one element not explained by SP's background was a common element. It was probably on my dad's clothes - he repaired TVs and always had a half-dozen around with their tubes exposed. MY clothes could have contained that element.

I love Sheridan. But nothing has convinced me to eliminate him - except an eye colour confirmed by one (very much in shock) witness, who changed her story about when he donned the glasses in her interviews. Ditto Gossett, though with him I am concerned about alibi. I'm not very clear on whether his whereabouts for Nov 24 can be verified. (I also do not eliminate the possibility of Cooper's death; the story of the woman with the missing dad is compelling). Most suspects I have far less trouble eliminating. Which is not to say that ANY of the people named thus far did it.


So, let's see,,

Cooper,
wasn't swarthy, latin, Mexican American or Native American, it was a tan.
the tie wasn't his or those tie particles are very common.
eyes were blue not brown.
hair wasn't marcelled or wavy (Alice Hancock also confirmed wavy hair..), he was balding.
a technical Boeing employee unable to operate rear airstairs even after instructions means nothing.
the FBI didn't publicly eliminate SP, evidence he is Cooper.

Now, those things may be individually possible, but in totality with all other evidence extremely unlikely. I wouldn't eliminate SP but in totality the circumstantial evidence is WEAK. There are thousands of people that can made into circumstantial suspects. Tens of thousands can be made into weak suspects.

The "totality" of the evidence against Sheridan as described in DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation coming out July 10th is overwhelming. I stand by my investigation and reporting of the facts.

Moreover, a quick review of some of the more salient facts as noted on https://TheCooperCase.com should make it abundantly clear that Sheridan is  uniquely and exceptionally credible.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on June 18, 2018, 01:05:33 PM
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Flyjack wrote: "Tens of thousands can be made into weak suspects."

Finally, my chance to be a NORJACK suspect, albeit a weak one.

PRO:
Owned a 727 a flight manual prior to Nov. 1971
Traveled to Seattle Nov 71, prior to DBC skyjack.
Experienced jumping military surplus parachute gear.
Fascinated with Boeing aircraft, extensive library.
Starving student, $200K would have been quite useful.
Exposure to tie elements, worked in TV repair, exposed to broken color CRTs, worked in university experimental prototype machine shop.
Owned a black clip on tie and DBC type clasp.
Obsessed with jumping from unusual aircraft since 1968. Made a passenger jet jump in 2006.


CON:
Was 22 years old in Nov 71.
No grudges.
Had no way to know a 727 could be jumped.
Didn't smoke.
Didn't drink hard liquor.
6'2" height.
No night or off DZ jump experience in 71.

So Flyjack, can I be suspect no. 9999?

377

Sure, right about where KC lands..
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 18, 2018, 01:16:49 PM
Just put me ahead of Reca and I'll be content.  ;)

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on June 18, 2018, 01:39:27 PM
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Just put me ahead of Reca and I'll be content.  ;)

377

Reca who?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 18, 2018, 01:48:22 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/17/db-cooper-was-former-military-paratrooper-from-michigan-publisher-claims.html

Just ahead of Barb Dayton on the Cooper 10,000 list.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 18, 2018, 02:09:36 PM
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/17/db-cooper-was-former-military-paratrooper-from-michigan-publisher-claims.html

Just ahead of Barb Dayton on the Cooper 10,000 list.

377

ORDER OF SUSPECTS:

1) Sheridan Peterson
.
.
.
1474) 377
.
.
.
2697) President Trump
.
.
.
5006) Reca
.
.
.
10038) Barb Dayton
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: dice on June 18, 2018, 11:43:16 PM
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/17/db-cooper-was-former-military-paratrooper-from-michigan-publisher-claims.html

Just ahead of Barb Dayton on the Cooper 10,000 list.

377

ORDER OF SUSPECTS:

1) Sheridan Peterson
.
.
.
1474) 377
.
.
.
2697) President Trump
.
.
.
5006) Reca
.
.
.
10038) Barb Dayton


Both Mucklow and Mitchell said from photos shown, that Peterson was not Cooper. 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 19, 2018, 12:00:36 AM
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/17/db-cooper-was-former-military-paratrooper-from-michigan-publisher-claims.html

Just ahead of Barb Dayton on the Cooper 10,000 list.

377

ORDER OF SUSPECTS:

1) Sheridan Peterson
.
.
.
1474) 377
.
.
.
2697) President Trump
.
.
.
5006) Reca
.
.
.
10038) Barb Dayton


Both Mucklow and Mitchell said from photos shown, that Peterson was not Cooper.

Where? I'd like to see the documents you have to support this claim.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: fcastle866 on June 19, 2018, 04:12:24 PM
EU/Lynn are with Sailshaw in choosing Peterson.  Here is a quote from back in 2014 from Sailshaw.  The piercing brown eyes made it to Wiki somehow too.  How hard was it to get brown contacts in 1971?  At some point Sailshaw thought Peterson was wearing contacts.  Below is his quote from Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper…Whats The deal? on October 11, 2014 at 11:54:06 AM.

Another aspect of DB is the disguise he use was so simple. He wore sunglasses to cover his eye color (what the FBI looks at to identify the suspect). The only time he took off the sunglasses was to show the Flight Attendants his eye color. They said he had "piercing brown eyes" which covered up hi actual blue eyes. No other disguise was necessary and it did the trick with the investigators.

Bob Sailshaw

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 19, 2018, 05:21:53 PM
If DBC's eye color really is unknown, then Ted Braden remains in the game. His MAC SOG night recon jumps in the N Vietnam jungle certainly demonstrated his ability.  What's also interesting is that many of his colleagues, including the legendary Billy Waugh, thought he was Cooper. I'd bet that the MAC SOG guys knew all about the SAT 727 airdrop tests in Thailand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Waugh

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 19, 2018, 05:34:29 PM
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EU/Lynn are with Sailshaw in choosing Peterson.  Here is a quote from back in 2014 from Sailshaw.  The piercing brown eyes made it to Wiki somehow too.  How hard was it to get brown contacts in 1971?  At some point Sailshaw thought Peterson was wearing contacts.  Below is his quote from Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper…Whats The deal? on October 11, 2014 at 11:54:06 AM.

Another aspect of DB is the disguise he use was so simple. He wore sunglasses to cover his eye color (what the FBI looks at to identify the suspect). The only time he took off the sunglasses was to show the Flight Attendants his eye color. They said he had "piercing brown eyes" which covered up hi actual blue eyes. No other disguise was necessary and it did the trick with the investigators.

Bob Sailshaw

Sailshaw had the right guy, Sheridan, but he tried too hard to prove it and took a few wrong turns.

Remember, Sailshaw insisted that Sheridan had quizzed him about the 727 aft stairs, but upon learning that he (Sailshaw) was only working on 737 air stairs quickly lost interest in Sailshaw. As noted in an earlier post I proved this was incorrect because neither the 727 nor 737 had flown yet.

Sailshaw also believed that Sheridan sent some of the news media letters claiming responsibility and taunting authorities. I do not believe this to be true. It doesn’t sound like the Sheridan I know. It doesn’t sound like the DB Cooper I know. There was nothing to gain and everything to lose if the real Cooper sent them.

Finally, the story about revealing his eyes to mislead witnesses because he was wearing brown contacts also doesn’t add up given the FBI files that pertain to the brief period of time when he wasn’t wearing sunglasses.

There is plenty of factual evidence pointing to Sheridan. Fantastic stories and explanations aren’t necessary.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Kermit on June 19, 2018, 06:33:35 PM
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EU/Lynn are with Sailshaw in choosing Peterson.  Here is a quote from back in 2014 from Sailshaw.  The piercing brown eyes made it to Wiki somehow too.  How hard was it to get brown contacts in 1971?  At some point Sailshaw thought Peterson was wearing contacts.  Below is his quote from Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper…Whats The deal? on October 11, 2014 at 11:54:06 AM.

Another aspect of DB is the disguise he use was so simple. He wore sunglasses to cover his eye color (what the FBI looks at to identify the suspect). The only time he took off the sunglasses was to show the Flight Attendants his eye color. They said he had "piercing brown eyes" which covered up hi actual blue eyes. No other disguise was necessary and it did the trick with the investigators.

Bob Sailshaw

Sailshaw had the right guy, Sheridan, but he tried too hard to prove it and took a few wrong turns.

Remember, Sailshaw insisted that Sheridan had quizzed him about the 727 aft stairs, but upon learning that he (Sailshaw) was only working on 737 air stairs quickly lost interest in Sailshaw. As noted in an earlier post I proved this was incorrect because neither the 727 nor 737 had flown yet.

Sailshaw also believed that Sheridan sent some of the news media letters claiming responsibility and taunting authorities. I do not believe this to be true. It doesn’t sound like the Sheridan I know. It doesn’t sound like the DB Cooper I know. There was nothing to gain and everything to lose if the real Cooper sent them.

Finally, the story about revealing his eyes to mislead witnesses because he was wearing brown contacts also doesn’t add up given the FBI files that pertain to the brief period of time when he wasn’t wearing sunglasses.

There is plenty of factual evidence pointing to Sheridan. Fantastic stories and explanations aren’t necessary

Since there is 0 proof that Cooper was either an expert jumper OR a complete novice jumper, I think the pool of possible jumpers must be in the millions. So I’d like to hear about the plenty of FACTUAL evidence involving Sheridan ? No doubt he’s qualified but EVIDENCE ?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 19, 2018, 08:35:50 PM
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EU/Lynn are with Sailshaw in choosing Peterson.  Here is a quote from back in 2014 from Sailshaw.  The piercing brown eyes made it to Wiki somehow too.  How hard was it to get brown contacts in 1971?  At some point Sailshaw thought Peterson was wearing contacts.  Below is his quote from Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper…Whats The deal? on October 11, 2014 at 11:54:06 AM.

Another aspect of DB is the disguise he use was so simple. He wore sunglasses to cover his eye color (what the FBI looks at to identify the suspect). The only time he took off the sunglasses was to show the Flight Attendants his eye color. They said he had "piercing brown eyes" which covered up hi actual blue eyes. No other disguise was necessary and it did the trick with the investigators.

Bob Sailshaw

Sailshaw had the right guy, Sheridan, but he tried too hard to prove it and took a few wrong turns.

Remember, Sailshaw insisted that Sheridan had quizzed him about the 727 aft stairs, but upon learning that he (Sailshaw) was only working on 737 air stairs quickly lost interest in Sailshaw. As noted in an earlier post I proved this was incorrect because neither the 727 nor 737 had flown yet.

Sailshaw also believed that Sheridan sent some of the news media letters claiming responsibility and taunting authorities. I do not believe this to be true. It doesn’t sound like the Sheridan I know. It doesn’t sound like the DB Cooper I know. There was nothing to gain and everything to lose if the real Cooper sent them.

Finally, the story about revealing his eyes to mislead witnesses because he was wearing brown contacts also doesn’t add up given the FBI files that pertain to the brief period of time when he wasn’t wearing sunglasses.

There is plenty of factual evidence pointing to Sheridan. Fantastic stories and explanations aren’t necessary
Quote
Since there is 0 proof that Cooper was either an expert jumper OR a complete novice jumper, I think the pool of possible jumpers must be in the millions. So I’d like to hear about the plenty of FACTUAL evidence involving Sheridan ? No doubt he’s qualified but EVIDENCE ?

Cooper turned down instructions regarding how to dawn and use the parachute. This indicates at least a basic level of knowledge regarding jumping. Nothing more or less.

Other information regarding specifics of the 727; location of oxygen bottles, refueling time, 15 degree flap setting, altitude to stay under to avoid running out of oxygen, leaving jet un-pressurized, realizing that the airstairs could be deployed in-flight and upon take-off (very important and not well-known fact), understanding that Mucklow did not need to be tethered in the jet for fear of being sucked out (very important and not well-known fact) among others demands that Cooper had to have access to this data...or he just guessed and happened to be correct on all points.

Furthermore, the elements and particles found on the tie have to be explained. Cooper had to come across these items somewhere and somehow.

Cooper's familiarity with Tacoma from the air and McChord being 20 minutes from SeaTac also have to be reasonably explained.

All of these things point to a Boeing connection and a Sheridan connection. Also, many other things will be discussed in the report on July 10th which will fill in a lot of other gaps.

I'm with you on the notion that the proof is in the pudding.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Shutter on June 19, 2018, 08:51:47 PM
fixed the last two comments the best I could.... :chr2:
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Kermit on June 19, 2018, 10:18:24 PM
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EU/Lynn are with Sailshaw in choosing Peterson.  Here is a quote from back in 2014 from Sailshaw.  The piercing brown eyes made it to Wiki somehow too.  How hard was it to get brown contacts in 1971?  At some point Sailshaw thought Peterson was wearing contacts.  Below is his quote from Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper…Whats The deal? on October 11, 2014 at 11:54:06 AM.

Another aspect of DB is the disguise he use was so simple. He wore sunglasses to cover his eye color (what the FBI looks at to identify the suspect). The only time he took off the sunglasses was to show the Flight Attendants his eye color. They said he had "piercing brown eyes" which covered up hi actual blue eyes. No other disguise was necessary and it did the trick with the investigators.

Bob Sailshaw

Sailshaw had the right guy, Sheridan, but he tried too hard to prove it and took a few wrong turns.

Remember, Sailshaw insisted that Sheridan had quizzed him about the 727 aft stairs, but upon learning that he (Sailshaw) was only working on 737 air stairs quickly lost interest in Sailshaw. As noted in an earlier post I proved this was incorrect because neither the 727 nor 737 had flown yet.

Sailshaw also believed that Sheridan sent some of the news media letters claiming responsibility and taunting authorities. I do not believe this to be true. It doesn’t sound like the Sheridan I know. It doesn’t sound like the DB Cooper I know. There was nothing to gain and everything to lose if the real Cooper sent them.

Finally, the story about revealing his eyes to mislead witnesses because he was wearing brown contacts also doesn’t add up given the FBI files that pertain to the brief period of time when he wasn’t wearing sunglasses.

There is plenty of factual evidence pointing to Sheridan. Fantastic stories and explanations aren’t necessary
Quote
Since there is 0 proof that Cooper was either an expert jumper OR a complete novice jumper, I think the pool of possible jumpers must be in the millions. So I’d like to hear about the plenty of FACTUAL evidence involving Sheridan ? No doubt he’s qualified but EVIDENCE ?

Cooper turned down instructions regarding how to dawn and use the parachute. This indicates at least a basic level of knowledge regarding jumping. Nothing more or less.

Other information regarding specifics of the 727; location of oxygen bottles, refueling time, 15 degree flap setting, altitude to stay under to avoid running out of oxygen, leaving jet un-pressurized, realizing that the airstairs could be deployed in-flight and upon take-off (very important and not well-known fact), understanding that Mucklow did not need to be tethered in the jet for fear of being sucked out (very important and not well-known fact) among others demands that Cooper had to have access to this data...or he just guessed and happened to be correct on all points.

Furthermore, the elements and particles found on the tie have to be explained. Cooper had to come across these items somewhere and somehow.

Cooper's familiarity with Tacoma from the air and McChord being 20 minutes from SeaTac also have to be reasonably explained.

All of these things point to a Boeing connection and a Sheridan connection. Also, many other things will be discussed in the report on July 10th which will fill in a lot of other gaps.

I'm with you on the notion that the proof is in the pudding.

What Sailshaw suspected or thought in no way is the same as FACTUAL evidence connecting Sheridan to Cooper. Unfortunately we have pretty much no evidence connecting ANYONE to Cooper. I’m not trying to downplay your suspect in any way. I’m just saying I see NO factual evidence. Perhaps 377 being a Lawyer can tell us if he’s seen any actuall evidence as I don’t !
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 20, 2018, 12:56:25 PM
If a US Attorney were to charge Sheridan Peterson with the skyjack, I predict he would walk away a free man. The standard for conviction is and will always be PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. None of the circumstantial evidence against him, even taken cumulatively, reaches that standard. Not even close. The FBI undoubtedly knows this. Remember, their role is not to "solve" the case but rather to present a prosecutable and winnable case. "Knowing" who Cooper is and being able to successfully prosecute Cooper are two very different things.

I had a client (now deceased) who the FBI "KNEW" had committed a serious crime but they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute. The US Attorney's Office instead went after him for federal loan fraud and won. The sentence was heavy because the judge probably shared the FBI's opinion that he had done much more. Although he was never late on a single mortgage payment, he had lied about sources of income on the loan application. It was like going after Al Capone for tax fraud when they couldn't prove anything else.

If Sheridan were charged, I'd volunteer to represent him pro bono. I am retiring soon and it would be a great retirement project. I believe I could get the case dismissed prior to trial based on the FBI's loss of the cigarette butts. The butts, if they had a good DNA sample, could convict someone, but they could also exonerate someone who was a possible match to the partial DNA found on the tie. Their loss is a loss of possibly exculpatory physical evidence, which is usually fatal to a criminal prosecution. That loss of potentially exculpatory physical evidence could be rendered harmless, however, by a credible and legally admissible confession or by the discovery of other unequivocally incriminating physical evidence.

And by the way, when you lose critical evidence, all the presumptions are construed against the party who lost it. Protests that the butts would not have had good DNA and therefore their loss should not result in a dismissal will very likely fall on deaf judicial ears.

377

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 20, 2018, 01:30:52 PM
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If a US Attorney were to charge Sheridan Peterson with the skyjack, I predict he would walk away a free man. The standard for conviction is and will always be PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. None of the circumstantial evidence against him, even taken cumulatively, reaches that standard. Not even close. The FBI undoubtedly knows this. Remember, their role is not to "solve" the case but rather to present a prosecutable and winnable case. "Knowing" who Cooper is and being able to successfully prosecute Cooper are two very different things.

I had a client (now deceased) who the FBI "KNEW" had committed a serious crime but they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute. The US Attorney's Office instead went after him for federal loan fraud and won. The sentence was heavy because the judge probably shared the FBI's opinion that he had done much more. Although he was never late on a single mortgage payment, he had lied about sources of income on the loan application. It was like going after Al Capone for tax fraud when they couldn't prove anything else.

If Sheridan were charged, I'd volunteer to represent him pro bono. I am retiring soon and it would be a great retirement project. I believe I could get the case dismissed prior to trial based on the FBI's loss of the cigarette butts. The butts, if they had a good DNA sample, could convict someone, but they could also exonerate someone who was a possible match to the partial DNA found on the tie. Their loss is a loss of possibly exculpatory physical evidence, which is usually fatal to a criminal prosecution. That loss of potentially exculpatory physical evidence could be rendered harmless, however, by a credible and legally admissible confession or by the discovery of other unequivocally incriminating physical evidence.

And by the way, when you lose critical evidence, all the presumptions are construed against the party who lost it. Protests that the butts would not have had good DNA and therefore their loss should not result in a dismissal will very likely fall on deaf judicial ears.

377

Well written. I believe the FBI suspects they know who Cooper was...Sheridan.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: fcastle866 on June 20, 2018, 02:45:03 PM
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If a US Attorney were to charge Sheridan Peterson with the skyjack, I predict he would walk away a free man. The standard for conviction is and will always be PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. None of the circumstantial evidence against him, even taken cumulatively, reaches that standard. Not even close. The FBI undoubtedly knows this. Remember, their role is not to "solve" the case but rather to present a prosecutable and winnable case. "Knowing" who Cooper is and being able to successfully prosecute Cooper are two very different things.

I had a client (now deceased) who the FBI "KNEW" had committed a serious crime but they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute. The US Attorney's Office instead went after him for federal loan fraud and won. The sentence was heavy because the judge probably shared the FBI's opinion that he had done much more. Although he was never late on a single mortgage payment, he had lied about sources of income on the loan application. It was like going after Al Capone for tax fraud when they couldn't prove anything else.

If Sheridan were charged, I'd volunteer to represent him pro bono. I am retiring soon and it would be a great retirement project. I believe I could get the case dismissed prior to trial based on the FBI's loss of the cigarette butts. The butts, if they had a good DNA sample, could convict someone, but they could also exonerate someone who was a possible match to the partial DNA found on the tie. Their loss is a loss of possibly exculpatory physical evidence, which is usually fatal to a criminal prosecution. That loss of potentially exculpatory physical evidence could be rendered harmless, however, by a credible and legally admissible confession or by the discovery of other unequivocally incriminating physical evidence.

And by the way, when you lose critical evidence, all the presumptions are construed against the party who lost it. Protests that the butts would not have had good DNA and therefore their loss should not result in a dismissal will very likely fall on deaf judicial ears.

377

Well written. I believe the FBI suspects they know who Cooper was...Sheridan.

It's a bold statement for anyone who is not with the FBI to say they believe what the FBI suspects.  A lot of people claim they are in touch with the FBI, but are they in touch with Carr or Eng-(retired)?  Getting people on this board to agree with a suspect, or some people on Facebook like the Recca folks did, is in a completely different world than getting the FBI and the majority of the general public to believe.  When Larry Carr or Curtis Eng come out and say that in their mind the case is closed, then I'll believe it.  I hope any book on the case sells well.  Any attention on the case is good press.  And if we are waiting for a conviction, even for Capone style tax evasion, then we are probably going to wait forever.  A 45 year old man in 1971 is now in his 90's, if he's still alive, which is unlikely.  Recca had his 15 minutes of fame.  There will be more people getting theirs, but it will still just be 15 minutes.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 20, 2018, 04:16:22 PM
"Any attention on the case is good press."

Agree 100%. We need a new Cooper every year or so to keep interest alive.

Somebody somewhere has as yet undiscovered info that would help ID Cooper.  They may not realize that it is relevant. A current story may trigger their interest and result in further inquiry and disclosure.

Keep them Coopers coming.  ;)

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 20, 2018, 11:20:07 PM
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"Any attention on the case is good press."

Agree 100%. We need a new Cooper every year or so to keep interest alive.

Somebody somewhere has as yet undiscovered info that would help ID Cooper.  They may not realize that it is relevant. A current story may trigger their interest and result in further inquiry and disclosure.

Keep them Coopers coming.  ;)

377

Not so sure. The record may be the opposite of what you say.

With every spurt of public attention 2007-2018, more people surfaced saying they knew who Cooper was (most of them quacks or wackos), the FBI pulled back. The same core group of suspects has stayed the same or been reduced! Colbert surfaced with huge publicity - the FBI retracted further and closed active pursuit of the case! More individuals surfaced with more dead-certain Cooper suspects. Many credible sleuths stopped working due to fear of public exposure and ridicule in the public-media logjam or quit due to frustration. Forums became highly conflicted and protective and shrank or were taken down for TOS violations and three went extinct. Hoped for leads from the public never materialized!

So public exposure alone does not translate into more/better info about the Cooper case, or even progress in the case! Just the opposite may be happening. The newly released 302s have added a ton of new trivia but nothing in the way of hard evidence.  More public exposue does translate into more and more conflict in the Cooper community with the FBI withdrawing further. The next step could be FBI and Justice Dept closing the case completely in the near future!

The facts suggest just the opposite of what you are claiming. The facts dont seem to support your wishes or your logic.   
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 21, 2018, 12:19:34 AM
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If a US Attorney were to charge Sheridan Peterson with the skyjack, I predict he would walk away a free man. The standard for conviction is and will always be PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. None of the circumstantial evidence against him, even taken cumulatively, reaches that standard. Not even close. The FBI undoubtedly knows this. Remember, their role is not to "solve" the case but rather to present a prosecutable and winnable case. "Knowing" who Cooper is and being able to successfully prosecute Cooper are two very different things.

I had a client (now deceased) who the FBI "KNEW" had committed a serious crime but they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute. The US Attorney's Office instead went after him for federal loan fraud and won. The sentence was heavy because the judge probably shared the FBI's opinion that he had done much more. Although he was never late on a single mortgage payment, he had lied about sources of income on the loan application. It was like going after Al Capone for tax fraud when they couldn't prove anything else.

If Sheridan were charged, I'd volunteer to represent him pro bono. I am retiring soon and it would be a great retirement project. I believe I could get the case dismissed prior to trial based on the FBI's loss of the cigarette butts. The butts, if they had a good DNA sample, could convict someone, but they could also exonerate someone who was a possible match to the partial DNA found on the tie. Their loss is a loss of possibly exculpatory physical evidence, which is usually fatal to a criminal prosecution. That loss of potentially exculpatory physical evidence could be rendered harmless, however, by a credible and legally admissible confession or by the discovery of other unequivocally incriminating physical evidence.

And by the way, when you lose critical evidence, all the presumptions are construed against the party who lost it. Protests that the butts would not have had good DNA and therefore their loss should not result in a dismissal will very likely fall on deaf judicial ears.

377

Well written. I believe the FBI suspects they know who Cooper was...Sheridan.

It's a bold statement for anyone who is not with the FBI to say they believe what the FBI suspects.  A lot of people claim they are in touch with the FBI, but are they in touch with Carr or Eng-(retired)?  Getting people on this board to agree with a suspect, or some people on Facebook like the Recca folks did, is in a completely different world than getting the FBI and the majority of the general public to believe.  When Larry Carr or Curtis Eng come out and say that in their mind the case is closed, then I'll believe it.  I hope any book on the case sells well.  Any attention on the case is good press.  And if we are waiting for a conviction, even for Capone style tax evasion, then we are probably going to wait forever.  A 45 year old man in 1971 is now in his 90's, if he's still alive, which is unlikely.  Recca had his 15 minutes of fame.  There will be more people getting theirs, but it will still just be 15 minutes.

Indeed, claiming the FBI suspects Sheridan is a bold statement. Let me back it up.

1) The FBI has been unwilling to clear Sheridan as they have done with the only two other suspects, Weber and LD, both of whom are dead and presumably could care less. On the other hand, Sheridan is still alive (more on this in a moment).

2) The FBI speaks cryptically when asked direct questions about Sheridan and the veracity of his DNA comparison stating only that they have been unable to come up with evidence meeting the legal definition of "beyond a reasonable doubt." Not, "we don't think he's the guy" as was done with Weber, LD, Rackstraw, McCoy and countless others.

Finally, I will be calling Sheridan tomorrow and asking him if he'd be willing to actually request that the FBI release their DNA findings concerning him. My guess is that he'll refuse. I'll let you know his response when I receive one.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 21, 2018, 12:31:22 AM
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If a US Attorney were to charge Sheridan Peterson with the skyjack, I predict he would walk away a free man. The standard for conviction is and will always be PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. None of the circumstantial evidence against him, even taken cumulatively, reaches that standard. Not even close. The FBI undoubtedly knows this. Remember, their role is not to "solve" the case but rather to present a prosecutable and winnable case. "Knowing" who Cooper is and being able to successfully prosecute Cooper are two very different things.

I had a client (now deceased) who the FBI "KNEW" had committed a serious crime but they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute. The US Attorney's Office instead went after him for federal loan fraud and won. The sentence was heavy because the judge probably shared the FBI's opinion that he had done much more. Although he was never late on a single mortgage payment, he had lied about sources of income on the loan application. It was like going after Al Capone for tax fraud when they couldn't prove anything else.

If Sheridan were charged, I'd volunteer to represent him pro bono. I am retiring soon and it would be a great retirement project. I believe I could get the case dismissed prior to trial based on the FBI's loss of the cigarette butts. The butts, if they had a good DNA sample, could convict someone, but they could also exonerate someone who was a possible match to the partial DNA found on the tie. Their loss is a loss of possibly exculpatory physical evidence, which is usually fatal to a criminal prosecution. That loss of potentially exculpatory physical evidence could be rendered harmless, however, by a credible and legally admissible confession or by the discovery of other unequivocally incriminating physical evidence.

And by the way, when you lose critical evidence, all the presumptions are construed against the party who lost it. Protests that the butts would not have had good DNA and therefore their loss should not result in a dismissal will very likely fall on deaf judicial ears.

377

Well written. I believe the FBI suspects they know who Cooper was...Sheridan.

It's a bold statement for anyone who is not with the FBI to say they believe what the FBI suspects.  A lot of people claim they are in touch with the FBI, but are they in touch with Carr or Eng-(retired)?  Getting people on this board to agree with a suspect, or some people on Facebook like the Recca folks did, is in a completely different world than getting the FBI and the majority of the general public to believe.  When Larry Carr or Curtis Eng come out and say that in their mind the case is closed, then I'll believe it.  I hope any book on the case sells well.  Any attention on the case is good press.  And if we are waiting for a conviction, even for Capone style tax evasion, then we are probably going to wait forever.  A 45 year old man in 1971 is now in his 90's, if he's still alive, which is unlikely.  Recca had his 15 minutes of fame.  There will be more people getting theirs, but it will still just be 15 minutes.

Indeed, claiming the FBI suspects Sheridan is a bold statement. Let me back it up.

1) The FBI has been unwilling to clear Sheridan as they have done with the only two other suspects, Weber and LD, both of whom are dead and presumably could care less. On the other hand, Sheridan is still alive (more on this in a moment).

2) The FBI speaks cryptically when asked direct questions about Sheridan and the veracity of his DNA comparison stating only that they have been unable to come up with evidence meeting the legal definition of "beyond a reasonable doubt." Not, "we don't think he's the guy" as was done with Weber, LD, Rackstraw, McCoy and countless others.

Finally, I will be calling Sheridan tomorrow and asking him if he'd be willing to actually request that the FBI release their DNA findings concerning him. My guess is that he'll refuse. I'll let you know his response when I receive one.

That isnt how it works. The FBI doesnt have the authority to release evidence in an active case, regardless of what SP says. Only the Justice Dept can do that. 

The only other options are (a) SP releases his own file of privately obtained dna, like from 23&Me, and (b) his privately obtained dna has been stored on one of the ancestral sites, but all of those sites require certifications before releasing anything ...  as in the recent California stalker-rapist case. 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 21, 2018, 12:39:02 AM
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If a US Attorney were to charge Sheridan Peterson with the skyjack, I predict he would walk away a free man. The standard for conviction is and will always be PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. None of the circumstantial evidence against him, even taken cumulatively, reaches that standard. Not even close. The FBI undoubtedly knows this. Remember, their role is not to "solve" the case but rather to present a prosecutable and winnable case. "Knowing" who Cooper is and being able to successfully prosecute Cooper are two very different things.

I had a client (now deceased) who the FBI "KNEW" had committed a serious crime but they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute. The US Attorney's Office instead went after him for federal loan fraud and won. The sentence was heavy because the judge probably shared the FBI's opinion that he had done much more. Although he was never late on a single mortgage payment, he had lied about sources of income on the loan application. It was like going after Al Capone for tax fraud when they couldn't prove anything else.

If Sheridan were charged, I'd volunteer to represent him pro bono. I am retiring soon and it would be a great retirement project. I believe I could get the case dismissed prior to trial based on the FBI's loss of the cigarette butts. The butts, if they had a good DNA sample, could convict someone, but they could also exonerate someone who was a possible match to the partial DNA found on the tie. Their loss is a loss of possibly exculpatory physical evidence, which is usually fatal to a criminal prosecution. That loss of potentially exculpatory physical evidence could be rendered harmless, however, by a credible and legally admissible confession or by the discovery of other unequivocally incriminating physical evidence.

And by the way, when you lose critical evidence, all the presumptions are construed against the party who lost it. Protests that the butts would not have had good DNA and therefore their loss should not result in a dismissal will very likely fall on deaf judicial ears.

377

Well written. I believe the FBI suspects they know who Cooper was...Sheridan.

It's a bold statement for anyone who is not with the FBI to say they believe what the FBI suspects.  A lot of people claim they are in touch with the FBI, but are they in touch with Carr or Eng-(retired)?  Getting people on this board to agree with a suspect, or some people on Facebook like the Recca folks did, is in a completely different world than getting the FBI and the majority of the general public to believe.  When Larry Carr or Curtis Eng come out and say that in their mind the case is closed, then I'll believe it.  I hope any book on the case sells well.  Any attention on the case is good press.  And if we are waiting for a conviction, even for Capone style tax evasion, then we are probably going to wait forever.  A 45 year old man in 1971 is now in his 90's, if he's still alive, which is unlikely.  Recca had his 15 minutes of fame.  There will be more people getting theirs, but it will still just be 15 minutes.

Indeed, claiming the FBI suspects Sheridan is a bold statement. Let me back it up.

1) The FBI has been unwilling to clear Sheridan as they have done with the only two other suspects, Weber and LD, both of whom are dead and presumably could care less. On the other hand, Sheridan is still alive (more on this in a moment).

2) The FBI speaks cryptically when asked direct questions about Sheridan and the veracity of his DNA comparison stating only that they have been unable to come up with evidence meeting the legal definition of "beyond a reasonable doubt." Not, "we don't think he's the guy" as was done with Weber, LD, Rackstraw, McCoy and countless others.

Finally, I will be calling Sheridan tomorrow and asking him if he'd be willing to actually request that the FBI release their DNA findings concerning him. My guess is that he'll refuse. I'll let you know his response when I receive one.

That isnt how it works. The FBI doesnt have the authority to release evidence in an active case, regardless of what SP says. Only the Justice Dept can do that.

Explain to me how releasing evidence that clears a guy compromises their ability to prosecute someone?

Again, they cleared Weber and LD.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 21, 2018, 12:44:04 AM
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If a US Attorney were to charge Sheridan Peterson with the skyjack, I predict he would walk away a free man. The standard for conviction is and will always be PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. None of the circumstantial evidence against him, even taken cumulatively, reaches that standard. Not even close. The FBI undoubtedly knows this. Remember, their role is not to "solve" the case but rather to present a prosecutable and winnable case. "Knowing" who Cooper is and being able to successfully prosecute Cooper are two very different things.

I had a client (now deceased) who the FBI "KNEW" had committed a serious crime but they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute. The US Attorney's Office instead went after him for federal loan fraud and won. The sentence was heavy because the judge probably shared the FBI's opinion that he had done much more. Although he was never late on a single mortgage payment, he had lied about sources of income on the loan application. It was like going after Al Capone for tax fraud when they couldn't prove anything else.

If Sheridan were charged, I'd volunteer to represent him pro bono. I am retiring soon and it would be a great retirement project. I believe I could get the case dismissed prior to trial based on the FBI's loss of the cigarette butts. The butts, if they had a good DNA sample, could convict someone, but they could also exonerate someone who was a possible match to the partial DNA found on the tie. Their loss is a loss of possibly exculpatory physical evidence, which is usually fatal to a criminal prosecution. That loss of potentially exculpatory physical evidence could be rendered harmless, however, by a credible and legally admissible confession or by the discovery of other unequivocally incriminating physical evidence.

And by the way, when you lose critical evidence, all the presumptions are construed against the party who lost it. Protests that the butts would not have had good DNA and therefore their loss should not result in a dismissal will very likely fall on deaf judicial ears.

377

Well written. I believe the FBI suspects they know who Cooper was...Sheridan.

It's a bold statement for anyone who is not with the FBI to say they believe what the FBI suspects.  A lot of people claim they are in touch with the FBI, but are they in touch with Carr or Eng-(retired)?  Getting people on this board to agree with a suspect, or some people on Facebook like the Recca folks did, is in a completely different world than getting the FBI and the majority of the general public to believe.  When Larry Carr or Curtis Eng come out and say that in their mind the case is closed, then I'll believe it.  I hope any book on the case sells well.  Any attention on the case is good press.  And if we are waiting for a conviction, even for Capone style tax evasion, then we are probably going to wait forever.  A 45 year old man in 1971 is now in his 90's, if he's still alive, which is unlikely.  Recca had his 15 minutes of fame.  There will be more people getting theirs, but it will still just be 15 minutes.

Indeed, claiming the FBI suspects Sheridan is a bold statement. Let me back it up.

1) The FBI has been unwilling to clear Sheridan as they have done with the only two other suspects, Weber and LD, both of whom are dead and presumably could care less. On the other hand, Sheridan is still alive (more on this in a moment).

2) The FBI speaks cryptically when asked direct questions about Sheridan and the veracity of his DNA comparison stating only that they have been unable to come up with evidence meeting the legal definition of "beyond a reasonable doubt." Not, "we don't think he's the guy" as was done with Weber, LD, Rackstraw, McCoy and countless others.

Finally, I will be calling Sheridan tomorrow and asking him if he'd be willing to actually request that the FBI release their DNA findings concerning him. My guess is that he'll refuse. I'll let you know his response when I receive one.

That isnt how it works. The FBI doesnt have the authority to release evidence in an active case, regardless of what SP says. Only the Justice Dept can do that.

Explain to me how releasing evidence that clears a guy compromises their ability to prosecute someone?

Again, they cleared Weber and LD.

Evidence in a Federal case cannot be released to the public without authorization; no matter what it proves or does not prove. It requires a Court order from a Federal Judge and probably action by the Justice Dept. Sheridan's only option is to obtain his dna from a private source (23 & Me) and then he is free to do with it what he wants.

Since SP has not been convicted or charged with anything he has no standing in a Court! He could get an attorney and file a request with a Federal Court but they would probably tell him they won't hear it. The FBI and the Justice Dept aren't Walmart for shoppers in the DB Cooper case! There must be some legal basis for involving a Court!

He could do this! Get a nuclear dna test from 23 % Me then pass it out to the media, or, store it on an ancestral site and give permission for public access ...  but even there people accessing the data on the ancestral site will have to pass the site's clearance guidelines.     
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 21, 2018, 12:57:30 AM
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If a US Attorney were to charge Sheridan Peterson with the skyjack, I predict he would walk away a free man. The standard for conviction is and will always be PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. None of the circumstantial evidence against him, even taken cumulatively, reaches that standard. Not even close. The FBI undoubtedly knows this. Remember, their role is not to "solve" the case but rather to present a prosecutable and winnable case. "Knowing" who Cooper is and being able to successfully prosecute Cooper are two very different things.

I had a client (now deceased) who the FBI "KNEW" had committed a serious crime but they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute. The US Attorney's Office instead went after him for federal loan fraud and won. The sentence was heavy because the judge probably shared the FBI's opinion that he had done much more. Although he was never late on a single mortgage payment, he had lied about sources of income on the loan application. It was like going after Al Capone for tax fraud when they couldn't prove anything else.

If Sheridan were charged, I'd volunteer to represent him pro bono. I am retiring soon and it would be a great retirement project. I believe I could get the case dismissed prior to trial based on the FBI's loss of the cigarette butts. The butts, if they had a good DNA sample, could convict someone, but they could also exonerate someone who was a possible match to the partial DNA found on the tie. Their loss is a loss of possibly exculpatory physical evidence, which is usually fatal to a criminal prosecution. That loss of potentially exculpatory physical evidence could be rendered harmless, however, by a credible and legally admissible confession or by the discovery of other unequivocally incriminating physical evidence.

And by the way, when you lose critical evidence, all the presumptions are construed against the party who lost it. Protests that the butts would not have had good DNA and therefore their loss should not result in a dismissal will very likely fall on deaf judicial ears.

377

Well written. I believe the FBI suspects they know who Cooper was...Sheridan.

It's a bold statement for anyone who is not with the FBI to say they believe what the FBI suspects.  A lot of people claim they are in touch with the FBI, but are they in touch with Carr or Eng-(retired)?  Getting people on this board to agree with a suspect, or some people on Facebook like the Recca folks did, is in a completely different world than getting the FBI and the majority of the general public to believe.  When Larry Carr or Curtis Eng come out and say that in their mind the case is closed, then I'll believe it.  I hope any book on the case sells well.  Any attention on the case is good press.  And if we are waiting for a conviction, even for Capone style tax evasion, then we are probably going to wait forever.  A 45 year old man in 1971 is now in his 90's, if he's still alive, which is unlikely.  Recca had his 15 minutes of fame.  There will be more people getting theirs, but it will still just be 15 minutes.

Indeed, claiming the FBI suspects Sheridan is a bold statement. Let me back it up.

1) The FBI has been unwilling to clear Sheridan as they have done with the only two other suspects, Weber and LD, both of whom are dead and presumably could care less. On the other hand, Sheridan is still alive (more on this in a moment).

2) The FBI speaks cryptically when asked direct questions about Sheridan and the veracity of his DNA comparison stating only that they have been unable to come up with evidence meeting the legal definition of "beyond a reasonable doubt." Not, "we don't think he's the guy" as was done with Weber, LD, Rackstraw, McCoy and countless others.

Finally, I will be calling Sheridan tomorrow and asking him if he'd be willing to actually request that the FBI release their DNA findings concerning him. My guess is that he'll refuse. I'll let you know his response when I receive one.

That isnt how it works. The FBI doesnt have the authority to release evidence in an active case, regardless of what SP says. Only the Justice Dept can do that.

Explain to me how releasing evidence that clears a guy compromises their ability to prosecute someone?

Again, they cleared Weber and LD.

Evidence in a Federal case cannot be released to the public without authorization; no matter what it proves or does not prove. It requires a Court order from a Federal Judge and probably action by the Justice Dept. Sheridan's only option is to obtain his dna from a private source (23 & Me) and then he is free to do with it what he wants.

That is incorrect. Releasing certain facts about a case of this nature does not require a court or judge's approval. More to the point, you're discussing process which has no bearing on whether Sheridan requests that his name be cleared by virtue of the DNA.

I predict Sheridan cannot and will not do it because there is no upside for him. Simply put, I predict he can't be cleared because the DNA is a match. I invite the FBI or anyone for that matter to prove me wrong.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 21, 2018, 01:05:37 AM
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If a US Attorney were to charge Sheridan Peterson with the skyjack, I predict he would walk away a free man. The standard for conviction is and will always be PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. None of the circumstantial evidence against him, even taken cumulatively, reaches that standard. Not even close. The FBI undoubtedly knows this. Remember, their role is not to "solve" the case but rather to present a prosecutable and winnable case. "Knowing" who Cooper is and being able to successfully prosecute Cooper are two very different things.

I had a client (now deceased) who the FBI "KNEW" had committed a serious crime but they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute. The US Attorney's Office instead went after him for federal loan fraud and won. The sentence was heavy because the judge probably shared the FBI's opinion that he had done much more. Although he was never late on a single mortgage payment, he had lied about sources of income on the loan application. It was like going after Al Capone for tax fraud when they couldn't prove anything else.

If Sheridan were charged, I'd volunteer to represent him pro bono. I am retiring soon and it would be a great retirement project. I believe I could get the case dismissed prior to trial based on the FBI's loss of the cigarette butts. The butts, if they had a good DNA sample, could convict someone, but they could also exonerate someone who was a possible match to the partial DNA found on the tie. Their loss is a loss of possibly exculpatory physical evidence, which is usually fatal to a criminal prosecution. That loss of potentially exculpatory physical evidence could be rendered harmless, however, by a credible and legally admissible confession or by the discovery of other unequivocally incriminating physical evidence.

And by the way, when you lose critical evidence, all the presumptions are construed against the party who lost it. Protests that the butts would not have had good DNA and therefore their loss should not result in a dismissal will very likely fall on deaf judicial ears.

377

Well written. I believe the FBI suspects they know who Cooper was...Sheridan.

It's a bold statement for anyone who is not with the FBI to say they believe what the FBI suspects.  A lot of people claim they are in touch with the FBI, but are they in touch with Carr or Eng-(retired)?  Getting people on this board to agree with a suspect, or some people on Facebook like the Recca folks did, is in a completely different world than getting the FBI and the majority of the general public to believe.  When Larry Carr or Curtis Eng come out and say that in their mind the case is closed, then I'll believe it.  I hope any book on the case sells well.  Any attention on the case is good press.  And if we are waiting for a conviction, even for Capone style tax evasion, then we are probably going to wait forever.  A 45 year old man in 1971 is now in his 90's, if he's still alive, which is unlikely.  Recca had his 15 minutes of fame.  There will be more people getting theirs, but it will still just be 15 minutes.

Indeed, claiming the FBI suspects Sheridan is a bold statement. Let me back it up.

1) The FBI has been unwilling to clear Sheridan as they have done with the only two other suspects, Weber and LD, both of whom are dead and presumably could care less. On the other hand, Sheridan is still alive (more on this in a moment).

2) The FBI speaks cryptically when asked direct questions about Sheridan and the veracity of his DNA comparison stating only that they have been unable to come up with evidence meeting the legal definition of "beyond a reasonable doubt." Not, "we don't think he's the guy" as was done with Weber, LD, Rackstraw, McCoy and countless others.

Finally, I will be calling Sheridan tomorrow and asking him if he'd be willing to actually request that the FBI release their DNA findings concerning him. My guess is that he'll refuse. I'll let you know his response when I receive one.

That isnt how it works. The FBI doesnt have the authority to release evidence in an active case, regardless of what SP says. Only the Justice Dept can do that.

Explain to me how releasing evidence that clears a guy compromises their ability to prosecute someone?

Again, they cleared Weber and LD.

Evidence in a Federal case cannot be released to the public without authorization; no matter what it proves or does not prove. It requires a Court order from a Federal Judge and probably action by the Justice Dept. Sheridan's only option is to obtain his dna from a private source (23 & Me) and then he is free to do with it what he wants.

That is incorrect. Releasing certain facts about a case of this nature does not require a court or judge's approval. More to the point, you're discussing process which has no bearing on whether Sheridan requests that his name be cleared by virtue of the DNA.

I predict Sheridan cannot and will not do it because there is no upside for him. Simply put, I predict he can't be cleared because the DNA is a match. I invite the FBI or anyone for that matter to prove me wrong.

Fine, then let Sheridan (or somebody with standing in Court) make some form of request and see what happens.

Ask 377 what he thinks. He's an attorney and knows the rules. 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 21, 2018, 01:12:49 AM
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If a US Attorney were to charge Sheridan Peterson with the skyjack, I predict he would walk away a free man. The standard for conviction is and will always be PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. None of the circumstantial evidence against him, even taken cumulatively, reaches that standard. Not even close. The FBI undoubtedly knows this. Remember, their role is not to "solve" the case but rather to present a prosecutable and winnable case. "Knowing" who Cooper is and being able to successfully prosecute Cooper are two very different things.

I had a client (now deceased) who the FBI "KNEW" had committed a serious crime but they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute. The US Attorney's Office instead went after him for federal loan fraud and won. The sentence was heavy because the judge probably shared the FBI's opinion that he had done much more. Although he was never late on a single mortgage payment, he had lied about sources of income on the loan application. It was like going after Al Capone for tax fraud when they couldn't prove anything else.

If Sheridan were charged, I'd volunteer to represent him pro bono. I am retiring soon and it would be a great retirement project. I believe I could get the case dismissed prior to trial based on the FBI's loss of the cigarette butts. The butts, if they had a good DNA sample, could convict someone, but they could also exonerate someone who was a possible match to the partial DNA found on the tie. Their loss is a loss of possibly exculpatory physical evidence, which is usually fatal to a criminal prosecution. That loss of potentially exculpatory physical evidence could be rendered harmless, however, by a credible and legally admissible confession or by the discovery of other unequivocally incriminating physical evidence.

And by the way, when you lose critical evidence, all the presumptions are construed against the party who lost it. Protests that the butts would not have had good DNA and therefore their loss should not result in a dismissal will very likely fall on deaf judicial ears.

377

Well written. I believe the FBI suspects they know who Cooper was...Sheridan.

It's a bold statement for anyone who is not with the FBI to say they believe what the FBI suspects.  A lot of people claim they are in touch with the FBI, but are they in touch with Carr or Eng-(retired)?  Getting people on this board to agree with a suspect, or some people on Facebook like the Recca folks did, is in a completely different world than getting the FBI and the majority of the general public to believe.  When Larry Carr or Curtis Eng come out and say that in their mind the case is closed, then I'll believe it.  I hope any book on the case sells well.  Any attention on the case is good press.  And if we are waiting for a conviction, even for Capone style tax evasion, then we are probably going to wait forever.  A 45 year old man in 1971 is now in his 90's, if he's still alive, which is unlikely.  Recca had his 15 minutes of fame.  There will be more people getting theirs, but it will still just be 15 minutes.

Indeed, claiming the FBI suspects Sheridan is a bold statement. Let me back it up.

1) The FBI has been unwilling to clear Sheridan as they have done with the only two other suspects, Weber and LD, both of whom are dead and presumably could care less. On the other hand, Sheridan is still alive (more on this in a moment).

2) The FBI speaks cryptically when asked direct questions about Sheridan and the veracity of his DNA comparison stating only that they have been unable to come up with evidence meeting the legal definition of "beyond a reasonable doubt." Not, "we don't think he's the guy" as was done with Weber, LD, Rackstraw, McCoy and countless others.

Finally, I will be calling Sheridan tomorrow and asking him if he'd be willing to actually request that the FBI release their DNA findings concerning him. My guess is that he'll refuse. I'll let you know his response when I receive one.

That isnt how it works. The FBI doesnt have the authority to release evidence in an active case, regardless of what SP says. Only the Justice Dept can do that.

Explain to me how releasing evidence that clears a guy compromises their ability to prosecute someone?

Again, they cleared Weber and LD.

Evidence in a Federal case cannot be released to the public without authorization; no matter what it proves or does not prove. It requires a Court order from a Federal Judge and probably action by the Justice Dept. Sheridan's only option is to obtain his dna from a private source (23 & Me) and then he is free to do with it what he wants.

That is incorrect. Releasing certain facts about a case of this nature does not require a court or judge's approval. More to the point, you're discussing process which has no bearing on whether Sheridan requests that his name be cleared by virtue of the DNA.

I predict Sheridan cannot and will not do it because there is no upside for him. Simply put, I predict he can't be cleared because the DNA is a match. I invite the FBI or anyone for that matter to prove me wrong.

Fine, then let Sheridan make some form of request and see what happens.

Ask 377 what he thinks. He's an attorney and knows the rules.

Let me clarify.

If the DNA is a hit (which I believe it is), the FBI will not release that for obvious reasons. If the DNA is not a hit, there is nothing preventing them from clearing an innocent man's name.

I think it's a moot point because I think Sheridan will refuse the request.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 21, 2018, 01:20:57 AM
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If a US Attorney were to charge Sheridan Peterson with the skyjack, I predict he would walk away a free man. The standard for conviction is and will always be PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. None of the circumstantial evidence against him, even taken cumulatively, reaches that standard. Not even close. The FBI undoubtedly knows this. Remember, their role is not to "solve" the case but rather to present a prosecutable and winnable case. "Knowing" who Cooper is and being able to successfully prosecute Cooper are two very different things.

I had a client (now deceased) who the FBI "KNEW" had committed a serious crime but they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute. The US Attorney's Office instead went after him for federal loan fraud and won. The sentence was heavy because the judge probably shared the FBI's opinion that he had done much more. Although he was never late on a single mortgage payment, he had lied about sources of income on the loan application. It was like going after Al Capone for tax fraud when they couldn't prove anything else.

If Sheridan were charged, I'd volunteer to represent him pro bono. I am retiring soon and it would be a great retirement project. I believe I could get the case dismissed prior to trial based on the FBI's loss of the cigarette butts. The butts, if they had a good DNA sample, could convict someone, but they could also exonerate someone who was a possible match to the partial DNA found on the tie. Their loss is a loss of possibly exculpatory physical evidence, which is usually fatal to a criminal prosecution. That loss of potentially exculpatory physical evidence could be rendered harmless, however, by a credible and legally admissible confession or by the discovery of other unequivocally incriminating physical evidence.

And by the way, when you lose critical evidence, all the presumptions are construed against the party who lost it. Protests that the butts would not have had good DNA and therefore their loss should not result in a dismissal will very likely fall on deaf judicial ears.

377

Well written. I believe the FBI suspects they know who Cooper was...Sheridan.

It's a bold statement for anyone who is not with the FBI to say they believe what the FBI suspects.  A lot of people claim they are in touch with the FBI, but are they in touch with Carr or Eng-(retired)?  Getting people on this board to agree with a suspect, or some people on Facebook like the Recca folks did, is in a completely different world than getting the FBI and the majority of the general public to believe.  When Larry Carr or Curtis Eng come out and say that in their mind the case is closed, then I'll believe it.  I hope any book on the case sells well.  Any attention on the case is good press.  And if we are waiting for a conviction, even for Capone style tax evasion, then we are probably going to wait forever.  A 45 year old man in 1971 is now in his 90's, if he's still alive, which is unlikely.  Recca had his 15 minutes of fame.  There will be more people getting theirs, but it will still just be 15 minutes.

Indeed, claiming the FBI suspects Sheridan is a bold statement. Let me back it up.

1) The FBI has been unwilling to clear Sheridan as they have done with the only two other suspects, Weber and LD, both of whom are dead and presumably could care less. On the other hand, Sheridan is still alive (more on this in a moment).

2) The FBI speaks cryptically when asked direct questions about Sheridan and the veracity of his DNA comparison stating only that they have been unable to come up with evidence meeting the legal definition of "beyond a reasonable doubt." Not, "we don't think he's the guy" as was done with Weber, LD, Rackstraw, McCoy and countless others.

Finally, I will be calling Sheridan tomorrow and asking him if he'd be willing to actually request that the FBI release their DNA findings concerning him. My guess is that he'll refuse. I'll let you know his response when I receive one.

That isnt how it works. The FBI doesnt have the authority to release evidence in an active case, regardless of what SP says. Only the Justice Dept can do that.

Explain to me how releasing evidence that clears a guy compromises their ability to prosecute someone?

Again, they cleared Weber and LD.

Evidence in a Federal case cannot be released to the public without authorization; no matter what it proves or does not prove. It requires a Court order from a Federal Judge and probably action by the Justice Dept. Sheridan's only option is to obtain his dna from a private source (23 & Me) and then he is free to do with it what he wants.

That is incorrect. Releasing certain facts about a case of this nature does not require a court or judge's approval. More to the point, you're discussing process which has no bearing on whether Sheridan requests that his name be cleared by virtue of the DNA.

I predict Sheridan cannot and will not do it because there is no upside for him. Simply put, I predict he can't be cleared because the DNA is a match. I invite the FBI or anyone for that matter to prove me wrong.

Fine, then let Sheridan make some form of request and see what happens.

Ask 377 what he thinks. He's an attorney and knows the rules.

Let me clarify.

If the DNA is a hit (which I believe it is), the FBI will not release that for obvious reasons. If the DNA is not a hit, there is nothing preventing them from clearing an innocent man's name.

I think it's a moot point because I think Sheridan will refuse the request.

I have no standing in this, period.

Keep in mind if rumor is correct, all the FBI has is a partial or several partials and multiple contributors. Ckret said they could rule people OUT but could NOT rule people IN or prove a match, because there is no complete profile to compare with! Under those conditions even if SP has a full dna profile he can only be ruled out but not ruled in or proclaimed to be a 100% match. If what Ckret said is true SP can only be ruled out, not in. So this quest may be futile from the git-go.

(sorry I got interrupted). In other words he could fall in the crack of not being rule out, but no way to evaluate the degree of him matching, because there is no complete codis-13 profile the FBI has to match with! All the FBI says it has is one or more partials from multiple contributors. This kind of thing happens quite often in old cases where dna has been compromised.   

Still it will be interesting to see what 377 says about the rules in this matter. Maybe tomorrow since he has not posted tonight...
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: andrade1812 on June 21, 2018, 01:48:34 AM
The fact Sheridan was willing to undergo DNA testing is pretty good proof of his innocence. They couldn't compel him to provide a sample, and I doubt they'd go through the effort of obtaining a sample surreptitiously. He's a smart guy who knows his rights, but agreed to be interviewed by the FBI, by the History Channel, and have his DNA tested against the tie samples.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 21, 2018, 02:03:57 AM
There isn’t an active prosecution of SP so the fed court system
isn’t involved at all. It’s between him and the FBI. The FBI could respond to a request by Sheridan or formally decline or ignore him. All of those are legal.

If they responded with his test results they’d likely just give him the results not publicize them.

He could also file a FOIA request. A denial could be appealed and he would have the right to sue.

377

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 21, 2018, 04:21:21 AM
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There isn’t an active prosecution of SP so the fed court system
isn’t involved at all. It’s between him and the FBI. The FBI could respond to a request by Sheridan or formally decline or ignore him. All of those are legal.

If they responded with his test results they’d likely just give him the results not publicize them.

He could also file a FOIA request. A denial could be appealed and he would have the right to sue.

377

But, even if they turned his results over to him, they would not turn Cooper evidence results over to him. This leaves him and experts with nothing to make a comparison with. Unless ...

Would they turn just 'his dna result' over, or actual 'comparison results' over? The latter is a clue to what the Cooper partials are they have been comparing people with. I doubt they would turn over the latter but who knows!   
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on June 21, 2018, 11:31:49 AM
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If a US Attorney were to charge Sheridan Peterson with the skyjack, I predict he would walk away a free man. The standard for conviction is and will always be PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. None of the circumstantial evidence against him, even taken cumulatively, reaches that standard. Not even close. The FBI undoubtedly knows this. Remember, their role is not to "solve" the case but rather to present a prosecutable and winnable case. "Knowing" who Cooper is and being able to successfully prosecute Cooper are two very different things.

I had a client (now deceased) who the FBI "KNEW" had committed a serious crime but they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute. The US Attorney's Office instead went after him for federal loan fraud and won. The sentence was heavy because the judge probably shared the FBI's opinion that he had done much more. Although he was never late on a single mortgage payment, he had lied about sources of income on the loan application. It was like going after Al Capone for tax fraud when they couldn't prove anything else.

If Sheridan were charged, I'd volunteer to represent him pro bono. I am retiring soon and it would be a great retirement project. I believe I could get the case dismissed prior to trial based on the FBI's loss of the cigarette butts. The butts, if they had a good DNA sample, could convict someone, but they could also exonerate someone who was a possible match to the partial DNA found on the tie. Their loss is a loss of possibly exculpatory physical evidence, which is usually fatal to a criminal prosecution. That loss of potentially exculpatory physical evidence could be rendered harmless, however, by a credible and legally admissible confession or by the discovery of other unequivocally incriminating physical evidence.

And by the way, when you lose critical evidence, all the presumptions are construed against the party who lost it. Protests that the butts would not have had good DNA and therefore their loss should not result in a dismissal will very likely fall on deaf judicial ears.

377

Well written. I believe the FBI suspects they know who Cooper was...Sheridan.

It's a bold statement for anyone who is not with the FBI to say they believe what the FBI suspects.  A lot of people claim they are in touch with the FBI, but are they in touch with Carr or Eng-(retired)?  Getting people on this board to agree with a suspect, or some people on Facebook like the Recca folks did, is in a completely different world than getting the FBI and the majority of the general public to believe.  When Larry Carr or Curtis Eng come out and say that in their mind the case is closed, then I'll believe it.  I hope any book on the case sells well.  Any attention on the case is good press.  And if we are waiting for a conviction, even for Capone style tax evasion, then we are probably going to wait forever.  A 45 year old man in 1971 is now in his 90's, if he's still alive, which is unlikely.  Recca had his 15 minutes of fame.  There will be more people getting theirs, but it will still just be 15 minutes.

Indeed, claiming the FBI suspects Sheridan is a bold statement. Let me back it up.

1) The FBI has been unwilling to clear Sheridan as they have done with the only two other suspects, Weber and LD, both of whom are dead and presumably could care less. On the other hand, Sheridan is still alive (more on this in a moment).

2) The FBI speaks cryptically when asked direct questions about Sheridan and the veracity of his DNA comparison stating only that they have been unable to come up with evidence meeting the legal definition of "beyond a reasonable doubt." Not, "we don't think he's the guy" as was done with Weber, LD, Rackstraw, McCoy and countless others.

Finally, I will be calling Sheridan tomorrow and asking him if he'd be willing to actually request that the FBI release their DNA findings concerning him. My guess is that he'll refuse. I'll let you know his response when I receive one.

That isnt how it works. The FBI doesnt have the authority to release evidence in an active case, regardless of what SP says. Only the Justice Dept can do that.

Explain to me how releasing evidence that clears a guy compromises their ability to prosecute someone?

Again, they cleared Weber and LD.

Evidence in a Federal case cannot be released to the public without authorization; no matter what it proves or does not prove. It requires a Court order from a Federal Judge and probably action by the Justice Dept. Sheridan's only option is to obtain his dna from a private source (23 & Me) and then he is free to do with it what he wants.

That is incorrect. Releasing certain facts about a case of this nature does not require a court or judge's approval. More to the point, you're discussing process which has no bearing on whether Sheridan requests that his name be cleared by virtue of the DNA.

I predict Sheridan cannot and will not do it because there is no upside for him. Simply put, I predict he can't be cleared because the DNA is a match. I invite the FBI or anyone for that matter to prove me wrong.

Fine, then let Sheridan make some form of request and see what happens.

Ask 377 what he thinks. He's an attorney and knows the rules.

Let me clarify.

If the DNA is a hit (which I believe it is), the FBI will not release that for obvious reasons. If the DNA is not a hit, there is nothing preventing them from clearing an innocent man's name.

I think it's a moot point because I think Sheridan will refuse the request.

My understanding is that the DNA was partial and can only exclude, not include. Also, the FBI never publicly eliminated Hahneman..  So, they have internal discretion and that discretion can't be used to infer "guilt", only lack of a "public" elimination.

I hope your approach shakes something loose though.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 21, 2018, 12:47:10 PM
IF the FBI were to respond directly to Sheridan's request, the most they would give him is what they gave others, the binary results of the DNA comparison.

They would not disclose any details about the DBC partial DNA, just whether a comparison did or did not rule out SP. Getting the FBI or other federal agencies to respond to requests for info is usually futile which is why FOIA was put into law.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 21, 2018, 01:27:00 PM
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My understanding is that the DNA was partial and can only exclude, not include. Also, the FBI never publicly eliminated Hahneman..  So, they have internal discretion and that discretion can't be used to infer "guilt", only lack of a "public" elimination.

I hope your approach shakes something loose though.

The FBI didn't compare Hahneman's DNA, he died in 1991 before they had Cooper's tie DNA.

You are correct that the profile is partial. However, by definition, if the DNA can exclude suspects it must also be able to include suspects. The field may be large, for example 75% of suspects tested may be excluded meaning you have 25% who match the partial, but, those 25% cannot be removed.

I have actually tried to find out how strong the Cooper DNA profile is, meaning will it exclude 50% of random subjects or perhaps 95% of random subjects. However, the FBI will not say. Regardless, the DNA is inadmissible in a court of law even if it clears 99% of subjects. Technicalities aside, that would be critical data to have in hand for investigative purposes if for nothing else.

What we do know is this: Of the three compared, two (67%) have been cleared, one (Sheridan) has not. Why?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Kermit on June 21, 2018, 01:39:47 PM
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EU/Lynn are with Sailshaw in choosing Peterson.  Here is a quote from back in 2014 from Sailshaw.  The piercing brown eyes made it to Wiki somehow too.  How hard was it to get brown contacts in 1971?  At some point Sailshaw thought Peterson was wearing contacts.  Below is his quote from Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper…Whats The deal? on October 11, 2014 at 11:54:06 AM.

Another aspect of DB is the disguise he use was so simple. He wore sunglasses to cover his eye color (what the FBI looks at to identify the suspect). The only time he took off the sunglasses was to show the Flight Attendants his eye color. They said he had "piercing brown eyes" which covered up hi actual blue eyes. No other disguise was necessary and it did the trick with the investigators.

Bob Sailshaw

Sailshaw had the right guy, Sheridan, but he tried too hard to prove it and took a few wrong turns.
U
Remember, Sailshaw insisted that Sheridan had quizzed him about the 727 aft stairs, but upon learning that he (Sailshaw) was only working on 737 air stairs quickly lost interest in Sailshaw. As noted in an earlier post I proved this was incorrect because neither the 727 nor 737 had flown yet.

Sailshaw also believed that Sheridan sent some of the news media letters claiming responsibility and taunting authorities. I do not believe this to be true. It doesn’t sound like the Sheridan I know. It doesn’t sound like the DB Cooper I know. There was nothing to gain and everything to lose if the real Cooper sent them.

Finally, the story about revealing his eyes to mislead witnesses because he was wearing brown contacts also doesn’t add up given the FBI files that pertain to the brief period of time when he wasn’t wearing sunglasses.

There is plenty of factual evidence pointing to Sheridan. Fantastic stories and explanations aren’t necessary.

I was just reviewing some of the thoughts that Sailshaw believed and I find some of his thoughts very doubtful! He actually said that he thought Cossey could have been involved in heist and that He might have been Cooper’s ground connection ! Really ? I find that to be quite far out there ! To each his own !
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 21, 2018, 01:46:30 PM
Sailshaw thought there was an FBI cover-up. I have never believed there was. The FBI certainly wants to solve the ONLY unsolved US skyjacking. It's the one blemish on a perfect record.

Cossey's murder remains a mystery. I don't think it had anything to do with NORJACK. He was a serious gambler and carried large amounts of cash at times. Looks more like a grudge killing than a money robbery though. Whenever someone wins big at cards, someone loses big. You can see how grudges could start and grow.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Kermit on June 21, 2018, 02:39:28 PM
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Sailshaw thought there was an FBI cover-up. I have never believed there was. The FBI certainly wants to solve the ONLY unsolved US skyjacking. It's the one blemish on a perfect record.

Cossey's murder remains a mystery. I don't think it had anything to do with NORJACK. He was a serious gambler and carried large amounts of cash at times. Looks more like a grudge killing than a money robbery though. Whenever someone wins big at cards, someone loses big. You can see how grudges could start and grow.

377

I am in no way trying to discredit the fine and intelligent person Sailshaw was ! I was on a hunting trip with my hunting buddy Larry. In the middle of the night we heard an unfamiliar sound. Larry was terrified and insisted it was Bigfoot ! Seriously ! He was so scared he took his rifle and left our tent and locked himself in my Pickup truck ! WOW ! I’m aware there are some very intelligent people who actually believe in Bigfoot ! Perhaps there are some right here on this forum ? I live right in the middle of Bigfoot country. How do I sleep at night ? LOL
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 21, 2018, 03:39:39 PM
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Sailshaw thought there was an FBI cover-up. I have never believed there was. The FBI certainly wants to solve the ONLY unsolved US skyjacking. It's the one blemish on a perfect record.

Cossey's murder remains a mystery. I don't think it had anything to do with NORJACK. He was a serious gambler and carried large amounts of cash at times. Looks more like a grudge killing than a money robbery though. Whenever someone wins big at cards, someone loses big. You can see how grudges could start and grow.

377

I am in no way trying to discredit the fine and intelligent person Sailshaw was ! I was on a hunting trip with my hunting buddy Larry. In the middle of the night we heard an unfamiliar sound. Larry was terrified and insisted it was Bigfoot ! Seriously ! He was so scared he took his rifle and left our tent and locked himself in my Pickup truck ! WOW ! I’m aware there are some very intelligent people who actually believe in Bigfoot ! Perhaps there are some right here on this forum ? I live right in the middle of Bigfoot country. How do I sleep at night ? LOL

funny but real!  :)
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 21, 2018, 03:52:10 PM
I have been amazed that seemingly intelligent people believe that large intelligent biped crypto-mammals have existed in the Pacific NW for centuries without leaving one single skeleton or identifiable remains anywhere. Do they vaporize upon death? All we have are easily faked footprints, obviously fake movie footage and alleged sightings that are unrecorded. In the days of ubiquitous high resolution cellphone cameras and motion-triggered trail cams, if you don't have a video, it didn't really happen. BIGFOOT/SASQUATCH, Case Closed.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 21, 2018, 04:00:23 PM
I spent a morning with Saishaw. He was a real gentleman, nice guy. Well educated, degreed engineer, accomplished blue water sailor, ham radio hobbyist, Boeing veteran. Sheridan would never agree with a benevolent description of Sail but they had an adversarial relationship. I liked Sail and enjoyed my time with him.

Sail was 100% sure that Sheridan Peterson was DBC. NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, would persuade him otherwise. That kind of conviction and bias clouds judgment and closes one's mind to alternative explanations of ambiguous evidence. Sail was also certain that Cooper wrote the taunting letters to the press. He was absolutely convinced that Sheridan Peterson's DNA could be found on the stamps that were used to mail these items.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Shutter on June 21, 2018, 05:58:17 PM
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I have been amazed that seemingly intelligent people believe that large intelligent biped crypto-mammals have existed in the Pacific NW for centuries without leaving one single skeleton or identifiable remains anywhere. Do they vaporize upon death? All we have are easily faked footprints, obviously fake movie footage and alleged sightings that are unrecorded. In the days of ubiquitous high resolution cellphone cameras and motion-triggered trail cams, if you don't have a video, it didn't really happen. BIGFOOT/SASQUATCH, Case Closed.

377

Statistics are saying IQ points are dropping at a rate of 7 points with each new generation..we are getting dumber as time passes  :chr2:
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: dice on June 22, 2018, 08:59:09 PM
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I have been amazed that seemingly intelligent people believe that large intelligent biped crypto-mammals have existed in the Pacific NW for centuries without leaving one single skeleton or identifiable remains anywhere. Do they vaporize upon death? All we have are easily faked footprints, obviously fake movie footage and alleged sightings that are unrecorded. In the days of ubiquitous high resolution cellphone cameras and motion-triggered trail cams, if you don't have a video, it didn't really happen. BIGFOOT/SASQUATCH, Case Closed.

377

For Bigfoot to even exist there would need to be a sustainable population in upwards of 30K....and not only a scattered few playing peek-a-boo with humans. Most of these sightings are people seeing large bears on two legs and the delusion from the following panic.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 23, 2018, 02:32:01 PM
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I have been amazed that seemingly intelligent people believe that large intelligent biped crypto-mammals have existed in the Pacific NW for centuries without leaving one single skeleton or identifiable remains anywhere. Do they vaporize upon death? All we have are easily faked footprints, obviously fake movie footage and alleged sightings that are unrecorded. In the days of ubiquitous high resolution cellphone cameras and motion-triggered trail cams, if you don't have a video, it didn't really happen. BIGFOOT/SASQUATCH, Case Closed.

377

For Bigfoot to even exist there would need to be a sustainable population in upwards of 30K....and not only a scattered few playing peek-a-boo with humans. Most of these sightings are people seeing large bears on two legs and the delusion from the following panic.

30k seems high to me, excessive, and not required based on standing mtdna analysis of species populations. Some estimates of the entire Neanderthal population at any one time are as low as 3500 or less (One study projects 70 to 100 or less!) , based on mtdna generational analysis! One study compared the mtdna of seven females found in different epochs and found tiny recessive drift compared to early Homo Sapiens populations. That alone points to a very small stable homogeneous population with little inbreeding (recessive traits) - well sustained and genetically stable in their natural environments in stark contrast to early Homo Sapiens who show a lot of evidence of inbreeding (recessive traits) coupled with environmental pressure. Much depends on the breeding clocks in different species.

In any event, no distinct Bigfoot species has ever been identified genetically! They always turn out to be something else, as you say. Here's one example: https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/gory-details/finally-some-solid-science-bigfoot 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: dice on June 23, 2018, 09:10:03 PM
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I have been amazed that seemingly intelligent people believe that large intelligent biped crypto-mammals have existed in the Pacific NW for centuries without leaving one single skeleton or identifiable remains anywhere. Do they vaporize upon death? All we have are easily faked footprints, obviously fake movie footage and alleged sightings that are unrecorded. In the days of ubiquitous high resolution cellphone cameras and motion-triggered trail cams, if you don't have a video, it didn't really happen. BIGFOOT/SASQUATCH, Case Closed.

377

For Bigfoot to even exist there would need to be a sustainable population in upwards of 30K....and not only a scattered few playing peek-a-boo with humans. Most of these sightings are people seeing large bears on two legs and the delusion from the following panic.

30k seems high to me, excessive, and not required based on standing mtdna analysis of species populations. Some estimates of the entire Neanderthal population at any one time are as low as 3500 or less (One study projects 70 to 100 or less!) , based on mtdna generational analysis! One study compared the mtdna of seven females found in different epochs and found tiny recessive drift compared to early Homo Sapiens populations. That alone points to a very small stable homogeneous population with little inbreeding (recessive traits) - well sustained and genetically stable in their natural environments in stark contrast to early Homo Sapiens who show a lot of evidence of inbreeding (recessive traits) coupled with environmental pressure. Much depends on the breeding clocks in different species.

In any event, no distinct Bigfoot species has ever been identified genetically! They always turn out to be something else, as you say. Here's one example: https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/gory-details/finally-some-solid-science-bigfoot

3500 seems quite low to be extant over the long haul
with disease and catastrophe, and as the Neanderthals are no longer with us in full form (though 23andMe says I'm carrying a trivial amount of them in me),  may attest to that ...
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 23, 2018, 11:12:44 PM
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I have been amazed that seemingly intelligent people believe that large intelligent biped crypto-mammals have existed in the Pacific NW for centuries without leaving one single skeleton or identifiable remains anywhere. Do they vaporize upon death? All we have are easily faked footprints, obviously fake movie footage and alleged sightings that are unrecorded. In the days of ubiquitous high resolution cellphone cameras and motion-triggered trail cams, if you don't have a video, it didn't really happen. BIGFOOT/SASQUATCH, Case Closed.

377

For Bigfoot to even exist there would need to be a sustainable population in upwards of 30K....and not only a scattered few playing peek-a-boo with humans. Most of these sightings are people seeing large bears on two legs and the delusion from the following panic.

30k seems high to me, excessive, and not required based on standing mtdna analysis of species populations. Some estimates of the entire Neanderthal population at any one time are as low as 3500 or less (One study projects 70 to 100 or less!) , based on mtdna generational analysis! One study compared the mtdna of seven females found in different epochs and found tiny recessive drift compared to early Homo Sapiens populations. That alone points to a very small stable homogeneous population with little inbreeding (recessive traits) - well sustained and genetically stable in their natural environments in stark contrast to early Homo Sapiens who show a lot of evidence of inbreeding (recessive traits) coupled with environmental pressure. Much depends on the breeding clocks in different species.

In any event, no distinct Bigfoot species has ever been identified genetically! They always turn out to be something else, as you say. Here's one example: https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/gory-details/finally-some-solid-science-bigfoot

3500 seems quite low to be extant over the long haul
with disease and catastrophe, and as the Neanderthals are no longer with us in full form (though 23andMe says I'm carrying a trivial amount of them in me),  may attest to that ...

yes! they definitely got into the Homo stream somehow. Maybe good looks? Great stories around the campfire? Cooperative cave art? ...   O0
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Lynn on June 24, 2018, 03:00:29 PM
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EU/Lynn are with Sailshaw in choosing Peterson.  Here is a quote from back in 2014 from Sailshaw.  The piercing brown eyes made it to Wiki somehow too.  How hard was it to get brown contacts in 1971?  At some point Sailshaw thought Peterson was wearing contacts.  Below is his quote from Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper…Whats The deal? on October 11, 2014 at 11:54:06 AM.

Another aspect of DB is the disguise he use was so simple. He wore sunglasses to cover his eye color (what the FBI looks at to identify the suspect). The only time he took off the sunglasses was to show the Flight Attendants his eye color. They said he had "piercing brown eyes" which covered up hi actual blue eyes. No other disguise was necessary and it did the trick with the investigators.

Bob Sailshaw

Sailshaw had the right guy, Sheridan, but he tried too hard to prove it and took a few wrong turns.
U
Remember, Sailshaw insisted that Sheridan had quizzed him about the 727 aft stairs, but upon learning that he (Sailshaw) was only working on 737 air stairs quickly lost interest in Sailshaw. As noted in an earlier post I proved this was incorrect because neither the 727 nor 737 had flown yet.

Sailshaw also believed that Sheridan sent some of the news media letters claiming responsibility and taunting authorities. I do not believe this to be true. It doesn’t sound like the Sheridan I know. It doesn’t sound like the DB Cooper I know. There was nothing to gain and everything to lose if the real Cooper sent them.

Finally, the story about revealing his eyes to mislead witnesses because he was wearing brown contacts also doesn’t add up given the FBI files that pertain to the brief period of time when he wasn’t wearing sunglasses.

There is plenty of factual evidence pointing to Sheridan. Fantastic stories and explanations aren’t necessary.

I was just reviewing some of the thoughts that Sailshaw believed and I find some of his thoughts very doubtful! He actually said that he thought Cossey could have been involved in heist and that He might have been Cooper’s ground connection ! Really ? I find that to be quite far out there ! To each his own !
While I don't think any such link had been established at the time of Sail's passing, I think I know where Sail got the impression. Both Sheridan and Cossey were at Issaquah, and in later years, Cossey changed his tune on whether or not Cooper could have survived. When you look at interviews with Coss and the History interview/Skyjumper article with Pete, both give almost exactly the same reasoning as to why Cooper couldn't have survived, and both state things that other expert skydivers would question and have. This, however, only proves they shared an opinion, not that they were personally connected. Not impossible, but would need to be proven. My feeling has always been that Cooper acted alone, but that's my own confirmation bias. He doesn't "feel" like a team to me, and honestly I think a team would have asked for more money.

Having spoken with EU at length, this latest investigation is not a Sail vs Pete-type situation, all due respect to Mr. Sailshaw, who of course went into Cooperland with a pre-formed theory. EU has taken Sail's more questionable theoretical tangents with a grain of salt, I believe without throwing out the baby with the bathwater. He began with the profile of Cooper and narrowed to SP, not the other way around, and has been very careful of his confirmation biases since doing so. He has thrown out illogical speculation even where it supports his thesis and has been rigorous in his investigation. He has avoided conspiracy speculation. At the very least, I expect that when this carefully prepared report on a realistically viable suspect comes out (one of only 2 or 3, IMO), it will blow nonsense like the Rackstraw and the utterly insupportable KC theory right off the Google search engines. For that reason alone, I am SO looking forward to it. And if Pete is innocent, he has nothing to fear - honestly, even if he's guilty, he probably has nothing to fear unless he still has a Cooper twenty somewhere and accidentally spends it at the Piggly Wiggly.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 24, 2018, 05:58:21 PM
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EU/Lynn are with Sailshaw in choosing Peterson.  Here is a quote from back in 2014 from Sailshaw.  The piercing brown eyes made it to Wiki somehow too.  How hard was it to get brown contacts in 1971?  At some point Sailshaw thought Peterson was wearing contacts.  Below is his quote from Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper…Whats The deal? on October 11, 2014 at 11:54:06 AM.

Another aspect of DB is the disguise he use was so simple. He wore sunglasses to cover his eye color (what the FBI looks at to identify the suspect). The only time he took off the sunglasses was to show the Flight Attendants his eye color. They said he had "piercing brown eyes" which covered up hi actual blue eyes. No other disguise was necessary and it did the trick with the investigators.

Bob Sailshaw

Sailshaw had the right guy, Sheridan, but he tried too hard to prove it and took a few wrong turns.
U
Remember, Sailshaw insisted that Sheridan had quizzed him about the 727 aft stairs, but upon learning that he (Sailshaw) was only working on 737 air stairs quickly lost interest in Sailshaw. As noted in an earlier post I proved this was incorrect because neither the 727 nor 737 had flown yet.

Sailshaw also believed that Sheridan sent some of the news media letters claiming responsibility and taunting authorities. I do not believe this to be true. It doesn’t sound like the Sheridan I know. It doesn’t sound like the DB Cooper I know. There was nothing to gain and everything to lose if the real Cooper sent them.

Finally, the story about revealing his eyes to mislead witnesses because he was wearing brown contacts also doesn’t add up given the FBI files that pertain to the brief period of time when he wasn’t wearing sunglasses.

There is plenty of factual evidence pointing to Sheridan. Fantastic stories and explanations aren’t necessary.

I was just reviewing some of the thoughts that Sailshaw believed and I find some of his thoughts very doubtful! He actually said that he thought Cossey could have been involved in heist and that He might have been Cooper’s ground connection ! Really ? I find that to be quite far out there ! To each his own !
While I don't think any such link had been established at the time of Sail's passing, I think I know where Sail got the impression. Both Sheridan and Cossey were at Issaquah, and in later years, Cossey changed his tune on whether or not Cooper could have survived. When you look at interviews with Coss and the History interview/Skyjumper article with Pete, both give almost exactly the same reasoning as to why Cooper couldn't have survived, and both state things that other expert skydivers would question and have. This, however, only proves they shared an opinion, not that they were personally connected. Not impossible, but would need to be proven. My feeling has always been that Cooper acted alone, but that's my own confirmation bias. He doesn't "feel" like a team to me, and honestly I think a team would have asked for more money.

Having spoken with EU at length, this latest investigation is not a Sail vs Pete-type situation, all due respect to Mr. Sailshaw, who of course went into Cooperland with a pre-formed theory. EU has taken Sail's more questionable theoretical tangents with a grain of salt, I believe without throwing out the baby with the bathwater. He began with the profile of Cooper and narrowed to SP, not the other way around, and has been very careful of his confirmation biases since doing so. He has thrown out illogical speculation even where it supports his thesis and has been rigorous in his investigation. He has avoided conspiracy speculation. At the very least, I expect that when this carefully prepared report on a realistically viable suspect comes out (one of only 2 or 3, IMO), it will blow nonsense like the Rackstraw and the utterly insupportable KC theory right off the Google search engines. For that reason alone, I am SO looking forward to it. And if Pete is innocent, he has nothing to fear - honestly, even if he's guilty, he probably has nothing to fear unless he still has a Cooper twenty somewhere and accidentally spends it at the Piggly Wiggly.

Sail's claim as I understood it, was that SP's dna would match dna 'on the letter (stamp') - not that it matched Cooper's dna or that SP was provably Cooper. Sail's hope was that 'any dna' from letter or otherwise would match the FBI's 'Cooper' dna but that never happened even after the FBI obtained SP's dna. Sail's pitch was to try and force the FBI to test the stamp for dna but nobody knows if they ever did this or the results.

Now people are claiming the FBI dna profile for Cooperis no good! And/or SP never submitted dna!

But I never once read Sail saying SP's dna would match Cooper's dna. Only that SP's dna would match dna on the letter stamp. Sail was very specific in his assertions. ?? I thought Sail was playing games and mixing and matching when in fact the only true test is matching SP's nuclear dna with the FBI dna profile for Cooper. Some say that was done but Sail would not accept the result,
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Lynn on June 24, 2018, 06:19:22 PM
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EU/Lynn are with Sailshaw in choosing Peterson.  Here is a quote from back in 2014 from Sailshaw.  The piercing brown eyes made it to Wiki somehow too.  How hard was it to get brown contacts in 1971?  At some point Sailshaw thought Peterson was wearing contacts.  Below is his quote from Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper…Whats The deal? on October 11, 2014 at 11:54:06 AM.

Another aspect of DB is the disguise he use was so simple. He wore sunglasses to cover his eye color (what the FBI looks at to identify the suspect). The only time he took off the sunglasses was to show the Flight Attendants his eye color. They said he had "piercing brown eyes" which covered up hi actual blue eyes. No other disguise was necessary and it did the trick with the investigators.

Bob Sailshaw

Sailshaw had the right guy, Sheridan, but he tried too hard to prove it and took a few wrong turns.
U
Remember, Sailshaw insisted that Sheridan had quizzed him about the 727 aft stairs, but upon learning that he (Sailshaw) was only working on 737 air stairs quickly lost interest in Sailshaw. As noted in an earlier post I proved this was incorrect because neither the 727 nor 737 had flown yet.

Sailshaw also believed that Sheridan sent some of the news media letters claiming responsibility and taunting authorities. I do not believe this to be true. It doesn’t sound like the Sheridan I know. It doesn’t sound like the DB Cooper I know. There was nothing to gain and everything to lose if the real Cooper sent them.

Finally, the story about revealing his eyes to mislead witnesses because he was wearing brown contacts also doesn’t add up given the FBI files that pertain to the brief period of time when he wasn’t wearing sunglasses.

There is plenty of factual evidence pointing to Sheridan. Fantastic stories and explanations aren’t necessary.

I was just reviewing some of the thoughts that Sailshaw believed and I find some of his thoughts very doubtful! He actually said that he thought Cossey could have been involved in heist and that He might have been Cooper’s ground connection ! Really ? I find that to be quite far out there ! To each his own !
While I don't think any such link had been established at the time of Sail's passing, I think I know where Sail got the impression. Both Sheridan and Cossey were at Issaquah, and in later years, Cossey changed his tune on whether or not Cooper could have survived. When you look at interviews with Coss and the History interview/Skyjumper article with Pete, both give almost exactly the same reasoning as to why Cooper couldn't have survived, and both state things that other expert skydivers would question and have. This, however, only proves they shared an opinion, not that they were personally connected. Not impossible, but would need to be proven. My feeling has always been that Cooper acted alone, but that's my own confirmation bias. He doesn't "feel" like a team to me, and honestly I think a team would have asked for more money.

Having spoken with EU at length, this latest investigation is not a Sail vs Pete-type situation, all due respect to Mr. Sailshaw, who of course went into Cooperland with a pre-formed theory. EU has taken Sail's more questionable theoretical tangents with a grain of salt, I believe without throwing out the baby with the bathwater. He began with the profile of Cooper and narrowed to SP, not the other way around, and has been very careful of his confirmation biases since doing so. He has thrown out illogical speculation even where it supports his thesis and has been rigorous in his investigation. He has avoided conspiracy speculation. At the very least, I expect that when this carefully prepared report on a realistically viable suspect comes out (one of only 2 or 3, IMO), it will blow nonsense like the Rackstraw and the utterly insupportable KC theory right off the Google search engines. For that reason alone, I am SO looking forward to it. And if Pete is innocent, he has nothing to fear - honestly, even if he's guilty, he probably has nothing to fear unless he still has a Cooper twenty somewhere and accidentally spends it at the Piggly Wiggly.

Sail's claim as I understood it, was that SP's dna would match dna 'on the letter (stamp') - not that it matched Cooper's dna or that SP was provably Cooper. Sail's hope was that 'any dna' from letter or otherwise would match the FBI's 'Cooper' dna but that never happened even after the FBI obtained SP's dna. Sail's pitch was to try and force the FBI to test the stamp for dna but nobody knows if they ever did this or the results.

Now people are claiming the FBI dna profile for Cooperis no good! And/or SP never submitted dna!

But I never once read Sail saying SP's dna would match Cooper's dna. Only that SP's dna would match dna on the letter stamp. Sail was very specific in his assertions. ?? I thought Sail was playing games and mixing and matching when in fact the only true test is matching SP's nuclear dna with the FBI dna profile for Cooper. Some say that was done but Sail would not accept the result,
Sail believed that a DNA match between the letters and SP would prove SP was in the United States rather than Nepal, disproving his alibi.

No one has stated that SP did not provide a DNA sample - that is verified both by SP himself and the  former FBI agent Fryar - but that he was not eliminated by the sample as has been inaccurately reported. It is possible the FBI closed the case not because they did not have a suspect they believed was Cooper, but because the chances of proving it were basically nil. Even if the cigarette butts were found tomorrow, they would be inadmissible, having been lost. With only an incomplete DNA sample that MAY be Cooper's to go on apart from circumstantial evidence, however compelling, they simply could not go forward with a prosecution.This could also be why they will only reopen the case with new physical evidence.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 24, 2018, 11:12:13 PM
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EU/Lynn are with Sailshaw in choosing Peterson.  Here is a quote from back in 2014 from Sailshaw.  The piercing brown eyes made it to Wiki somehow too.  How hard was it to get brown contacts in 1971?  At some point Sailshaw thought Peterson was wearing contacts.  Below is his quote from Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper…Whats The deal? on October 11, 2014 at 11:54:06 AM.

Another aspect of DB is the disguise he use was so simple. He wore sunglasses to cover his eye color (what the FBI looks at to identify the suspect). The only time he took off the sunglasses was to show the Flight Attendants his eye color. They said he had "piercing brown eyes" which covered up hi actual blue eyes. No other disguise was necessary and it did the trick with the investigators.

Bob Sailshaw

Sailshaw had the right guy, Sheridan, but he tried too hard to prove it and took a few wrong turns.
U
Remember, Sailshaw insisted that Sheridan had quizzed him about the 727 aft stairs, but upon learning that he (Sailshaw) was only working on 737 air stairs quickly lost interest in Sailshaw. As noted in an earlier post I proved this was incorrect because neither the 727 nor 737 had flown yet.

Sailshaw also believed that Sheridan sent some of the news media letters claiming responsibility and taunting authorities. I do not believe this to be true. It doesn’t sound like the Sheridan I know. It doesn’t sound like the DB Cooper I know. There was nothing to gain and everything to lose if the real Cooper sent them.

Finally, the story about revealing his eyes to mislead witnesses because he was wearing brown contacts also doesn’t add up given the FBI files that pertain to the brief period of time when he wasn’t wearing sunglasses.

There is plenty of factual evidence pointing to Sheridan. Fantastic stories and explanations aren’t necessary.

I was just reviewing some of the thoughts that Sailshaw believed and I find some of his thoughts very doubtful! He actually said that he thought Cossey could have been involved in heist and that He might have been Cooper’s ground connection ! Really ? I find that to be quite far out there ! To each his own !
While I don't think any such link had been established at the time of Sail's passing, I think I know where Sail got the impression. Both Sheridan and Cossey were at Issaquah, and in later years, Cossey changed his tune on whether or not Cooper could have survived. When you look at interviews with Coss and the History interview/Skyjumper article with Pete, both give almost exactly the same reasoning as to why Cooper couldn't have survived, and both state things that other expert skydivers would question and have. This, however, only proves they shared an opinion, not that they were personally connected. Not impossible, but would need to be proven. My feeling has always been that Cooper acted alone, but that's my own confirmation bias. He doesn't "feel" like a team to me, and honestly I think a team would have asked for more money.

Having spoken with EU at length, this latest investigation is not a Sail vs Pete-type situation, all due respect to Mr. Sailshaw, who of course went into Cooperland with a pre-formed theory. EU has taken Sail's more questionable theoretical tangents with a grain of salt, I believe without throwing out the baby with the bathwater. He began with the profile of Cooper and narrowed to SP, not the other way around, and has been very careful of his confirmation biases since doing so. He has thrown out illogical speculation even where it supports his thesis and has been rigorous in his investigation. He has avoided conspiracy speculation. At the very least, I expect that when this carefully prepared report on a realistically viable suspect comes out (one of only 2 or 3, IMO), it will blow nonsense like the Rackstraw and the utterly insupportable KC theory right off the Google search engines. For that reason alone, I am SO looking forward to it. And if Pete is innocent, he has nothing to fear - honestly, even if he's guilty, he probably has nothing to fear unless he still has a Cooper twenty somewhere and accidentally spends it at the Piggly Wiggly.

Sail's claim as I understood it, was that SP's dna would match dna 'on the letter (stamp') - not that it matched Cooper's dna or that SP was provably Cooper. Sail's hope was that 'any dna' from letter or otherwise would match the FBI's 'Cooper' dna but that never happened even after the FBI obtained SP's dna. Sail's pitch was to try and force the FBI to test the stamp for dna but nobody knows if they ever did this or the results.

Now people are claiming the FBI dna profile for Cooperis no good! And/or SP never submitted dna!

But I never once read Sail saying SP's dna would match Cooper's dna. Only that SP's dna would match dna on the letter stamp. Sail was very specific in his assertions. ?? I thought Sail was playing games and mixing and matching when in fact the only true test is matching SP's nuclear dna with the FBI dna profile for Cooper. Some say that was done but Sail would not accept the result,
Sail believed that a DNA match between the letters and SP would prove SP was in the United States rather than Nepal, disproving his alibi.

No one has stated that SP did not provide a DNA sample - that is verified both by SP himself and the  former FBI agent Fryar - but that he was not eliminated by the sample as has been inaccurately reported. It is possible the FBI closed the case not because they did not have a suspect they believed was Cooper, but because the chances of proving it were basically nil. Even if the cigarette butts were found tomorrow, they would be inadmissible, having been lost. With only an incomplete DNA sample that MAY be Cooper's to go on apart from circumstantial evidence, however compelling, they simply could not go forward with a prosecution.This could also be why they will only reopen the case with new physical evidence.

You could be right in all of the above! You have to give Sail credit - he did stick to his guns, God bless him!  :)
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: fcastle866 on June 25, 2018, 10:00:13 AM
EU/Lynn-If you're related to or connected to Sailshaw or Peterson, that could add some good background to this report.  Maybe it is already in there and we will see it in July.  From what I've seen on the videos, Sheridan Peterson seemed like a great guy to talk to.  He also has done a lot of good things.  Maybe the FBI knows this and does not want to skewer an old man.  How old is he now?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 25, 2018, 11:36:39 AM
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EU/Lynn-If you're related to or connected to Sailshaw or Peterson, that could add some good background to this report.  Maybe it is already in there and we will see it in July.  From what I've seen on the videos, Sheridan Peterson seemed like a great guy to talk to.  He also has done a lot of good things.  Maybe the FBI knows this and does not want to skewer an old man.  How old is he now?

I am not related to Sheridan but I know him. I have talked with him on the phone and communicated with him dozens of times via email. I feel like I understand him about as well as anyone could expect at this point. Sheridan is 92.

Sheridan is a fascinating man, which makes him likable. However, he can be an ass a lot of the time. He has a difficult time getting along with people primarily because he has a problem treating others with respect. I get the distinct impression that he always thinks he's the smartest guy in the room.

I have read many times on this forum how others cannot see Sheridan--Mr. Peace--ever skyjacking an airliner. Knowing him as I do I couldn't disagree more. He has the ideal mindset.

When all is said and done he wants to be remembered as an honorable man. That said, I believe his perception of himself is flawed today and has always been flawed to a degree. To be sure he's done some good things. But, if we're being honest, he carries around a lot of baggage too.

I dig into this in the report because I consider it critical in understanding how Sheridan becomes DB Cooper and pulls it off.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 25, 2018, 01:58:08 PM
Lynn wrote: "Even if the cigarette butts were found tomorrow, they would be inadmissible, having been lost."

Not necessarily. If the FBI could show a continuous unbroken chain of custody, the butts might still be admissible evidence, e.g if they provably remained in a secure evidence locker and were just unnoticed.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: fcastle866 on June 25, 2018, 02:04:57 PM
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Lynn wrote: "Even if the cigarette butts were found tomorrow, they would be inadmissible, having been lost."

Not necessarily. If the FBI could show a continuous unbroken chain of custody, the butts might still be admissible evidence, e.g if they provably remained in a secure evidence locker and were just unnoticed.

377

For the lawyers here and those experienced with the system: Is there value in closing the case based off a preponderance of evidence, but actually not indicting or getting a conviction?  Would the FBI be happy to just see a reduction in all these new leads and suspects? For instance, if the DNA on the cigarette butts matched a person, Peterson or anyone, would it help reduce the number of man hours spent on simple things such as responding to a letter, updating the boss, updating a Congressman, etc.?  If a suspect matched the DNA, then every letter from a conspiracy theorist about how their uncle was DB Cooper could be put in a box marked "get to later."  Then they can just let all of us on the board talk through all the scenarios on our own time.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 25, 2018, 02:34:05 PM
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Lynn wrote: "Even if the cigarette butts were found tomorrow, they would be inadmissible, having been lost."

Not necessarily. If the FBI could show a continuous unbroken chain of custody, the butts might still be admissible evidence, e.g if they provably remained in a secure evidence locker and were just unnoticed.

377

For the lawyers here and those experienced with the system: Is there value in closing the case based off a preponderance of evidence, but actually not indicting or getting a conviction?  Would the FBI be happy to just see a reduction in all these new leads and suspects? For instance, if the DNA on the cigarette butts matched a person, Peterson or anyone, would it help reduce the number of man hours spent on simple things such as responding to a letter, updating the boss, updating a Congressman, etc.?  If a suspect matched the DNA, then every letter from a conspiracy theorist about how their uncle was DB Cooper could be put in a box marked "get to later."  Then they can just let all of us on the board talk through all the scenarios on our own time.

I actually think this is what happened. I maintain that the FBI suspects Sheridan but when presenting what they had in the form of evidence to the Assistant US Attorney, were informed that there simply wasn't enough to prosecute. Remember, the DNA is not admissible.

Additionally, they are obligated to vet all leads that come in regardless of how ridiculous they are. I actually read an FBI file involving a guy who contacted the FBI because he was watching an episode of Perry Mason and thought that one of the supporting actors bore a strong resemblance to the Cooper sketch. Obviously this went nowhere, however, they did have to address it if for no other reason than to write a report.

The FBI has made it clear that they do not have enough evidence to meet the legal threshold of "beyond a reasonable doubt." However, if a Cooper twenty, which bears a one-of-a-kind serial number shows up, that may change things.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on June 25, 2018, 03:57:46 PM
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/a-reasonable-doubt/480747/

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 25, 2018, 05:53:48 PM
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Lynn wrote: "Even if the cigarette butts were found tomorrow, they would be inadmissible, having been lost."

Not necessarily. If the FBI could show a continuous unbroken chain of custody, the butts might still be admissible evidence, e.g if they provably remained in a secure evidence locker and were just unnoticed.

377

I agree. It would help if the dna were pure with no other contributors.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 25, 2018, 06:02:03 PM
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EU/Lynn-If you're related to or connected to Sailshaw or Peterson, that could add some good background to this report.  Maybe it is already in there and we will see it in July.  From what I've seen on the videos, Sheridan Peterson seemed like a great guy to talk to.  He also has done a lot of good things.  Maybe the FBI knows this and does not want to skewer an old man.  How old is he now?

I am not related to Sheridan but I know him. I have talked with him on the phone and communicated with him dozens of times via email. I feel like I understand him about as well as anyone could expect at this point. Sheridan is 92.

Sheridan is a fascinating man, which makes him likable. However, he can be an ass a lot of the time. He has a difficult time getting along with people primarily because he has a problem treating others with respect. I get the distinct impression that he always thinks he's the smartest guy in the room.

I have read many times on this forum how others cannot see Sheridan--Mr. Peace--ever skyjacking an airliner. Knowing him as I do I couldn't disagree more. He has the ideal mindset.

When all is said and done he wants to be remembered as an honorable man. That said, I believe his perception of himself is flawed today and has always been flawed to a degree. To be sure he's done some good things. But, if we're being honest, he carries around a lot of baggage too.

I dig into this in the report because I consider it critical in understanding how Sheridan becomes DB Cooper and pulls it off.

He fits the protestor profile of the 70s - talked the talk but did he walk the walk, and which walk! Or was it a crawl with a lot of verbiage and fits and starts along the way. He is full of temptation but then withdraws and takes and common path when it matters? He's a tempter - or a windbag depending on how you view it.  :rofl:

The world is full of windbags who had a few glorious moments in their lives. Sheridan strikes me as somebody who chooses survival over his politics, when push comes to shove. His glorious moments are thus preserved to reminisce about so long as he breaths. DB Cooper? No.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: fcastle866 on June 26, 2018, 09:16:54 AM
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Lynn wrote: "Even if the cigarette butts were found tomorrow, they would be inadmissible, having been lost."

Not necessarily. If the FBI could show a continuous unbroken chain of custody, the butts might still be admissible evidence, e.g if they provably remained in a secure evidence locker and were just unnoticed.

377

For the lawyers here and those experienced with the system: Is there value in closing the case based off a preponderance of evidence, but actually not indicting or getting a conviction?  Would the FBI be happy to just see a reduction in all these new leads and suspects? For instance, if the DNA on the cigarette butts matched a person, Peterson or anyone, would it help reduce the number of man hours spent on simple things such as responding to a letter, updating the boss, updating a Congressman, etc.?  If a suspect matched the DNA, then every letter from a conspiracy theorist about how their uncle was DB Cooper could be put in a box marked "get to later."  Then they can just let all of us on the board talk through all the scenarios on our own time.

I actually think this is what happened. I maintain that the FBI suspects Sheridan but when presenting what they had in the form of evidence to the Assistant US Attorney, were informed that there simply wasn't enough to prosecute. Remember, the DNA is not admissible.

Additionally, they are obligated to vet all leads that come in regardless of how ridiculous they are. I actually read an FBI file involving a guy who contacted the FBI because he was watching an episode of Perry Mason and thought that one of the supporting actors bore a strong resemblance to the Cooper sketch. Obviously this went nowhere, however, they did have to address it if for no other reason than to write a report.

The FBI has made it clear that they do not have enough evidence to meet the legal threshold of "beyond a reasonable doubt." However, if a Cooper twenty, which bears a one-of-a-kind serial number shows up, that may change things.

 :rofl: on the Perry Mason story.  I can imagine what it must have been like in 1971 chasing down everyone's leads.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: RaoulDuke24 on June 26, 2018, 03:29:24 PM
Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 27, 2018, 11:02:02 AM
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 27, 2018, 01:17:32 PM
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.

Partial or partials?

Multiple contributors?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 27, 2018, 01:31:11 PM
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.

Partial or partials?

Multiple contributors?

Yes, yes and yes.

To answer the second question first: Yes there are multiple donors--three--on the tie.

Regarding the first question: All of the DNA related to the three donors is partial.

Finally, there was one donor who contributed saliva to the tie. It is likely that this is Cooper's DNA given it is easy to envision Cooper smoking, drinking or eating and inadvertently contributing the sample.

None of this explains what happened to the cigarette butts and shaft of hair. Or, why the FBI feels certain enough about their partial DNA profile to publicly exclude Weber and LD by virtue of that DNA while avoiding questions about Sheridan's results.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 27, 2018, 01:52:25 PM
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.

Partial or partials?

Multiple contributors?

Yes, yes and yes.

To answer the second question first: Yes there are multiple donors--three--on the tie.

Regarding the first question: All of the DNA related to the three donors is partial.

Finally, there was one donor who contributed saliva to the tie. It is likely that this is Cooper's DNA given it is easy to envision Cooper smoking, drinking or eating and inadvertently contributing the sample.

None of this explains what happened to the cigarette butts and shaft of hair. Or, why the FBI feels certain enough about their partial DNA profile to publicly exclude Weber and LD by virtue of that DNA while avoiding questions about Sheridan's results.

So three donors, each a partial, one partial from saliva, (the other two epithelial cells?), ... so if all three eliminate a person then the person can be said to be 'strongly eliminated' by virtue of three eliminations! ?  :)  If you dont know which sample is Cooper's then you always must test against all three samples.

Any info on confidence levels of each partial?

Oh! and I forgot. If sex of one contributor is known to be female, then AMEL also was tested for and registered on all samples which means they are testing outside of Codis-13 on all samples, up to at least 14 or 15 or more? That would be standard practice and  means .....
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 27, 2018, 02:33:24 PM
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.

Partial or partials?

Multiple contributors?

Yes, yes and yes.

To answer the second question first: Yes there are multiple donors--three--on the tie.

Regarding the first question: All of the DNA related to the three donors is partial.

Finally, there was one donor who contributed saliva to the tie. It is likely that this is Cooper's DNA given it is easy to envision Cooper smoking, drinking or eating and inadvertently contributing the sample.

None of this explains what happened to the cigarette butts and shaft of hair. Or, why the FBI feels certain enough about their partial DNA profile to publicly exclude Weber and LD by virtue of that DNA while avoiding questions about Sheridan's results.

So three donors, each a partial, one partial from saliva, (the other two epithelial cells?), ... so if all three eliminate a person then the person can be said to be 'strongly eliminated' by virtue of three eliminations! ?  :)  If you dont know which sample is Cooper's then you always must test against all three samples.

Any info on confidence levels of each partial?

Oh! and I forgot. If sex of one contributor is known to be female, then AMEL also was tested for and registered on all samples which means they are testing outside of Codis-13 on all samples, up to at least 14 or 15 or more? That would be standard practice and  means .....

I have read that one of the donors was female, however, have been unable to confirm that.

I asked the FBI about the confidence level of the DNA, however, was given a response that avoided the question, instead stating the FBI has been unable to come up with evidence meeting the legal threshold of "beyond a reasonable doubt."
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: sry828 on June 27, 2018, 03:22:02 PM
I wonder about how much to value the tie.  I may be way off here, but if I remember correctly, the tie was found sitting on Cooper's seat.  It's tough to have your clip-on tie fall off, and land underneath you, on your seat.  Also, airline rows are cramped.  So, even if he had stood up, and was facing towards his seat, you would think that a guy who is 5'10"-6'0" would have to be hunched over to stand.  Being hunched over, his head would be positioned looking down.  It would be tough not to notice your tie falling off in that scenario.  That makes me think that he purposely took the tie off and left it in the one spot he knew would ensure it would most likely be linked to him before any other passengers.

I know that DNA wasn't something that criminals thought about back then, but could there have been something else about the tie that Cooper thought would lead investigators in the wrong direction?  Maybe he thought they'd be able to pull fingerprints from a used tie, and picked up a tie at a yard sale, or at Goodwill, or something similar.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 27, 2018, 03:29:08 PM
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.

Partial or partials?

Multiple contributors?

Yes, yes and yes.

To answer the second question first: Yes there are multiple donors--three--on the tie.

Regarding the first question: All of the DNA related to the three donors is partial.

Finally, there was one donor who contributed saliva to the tie. It is likely that this is Cooper's DNA given it is easy to envision Cooper smoking, drinking or eating and inadvertently contributing the sample.

None of this explains what happened to the cigarette butts and shaft of hair. Or, why the FBI feels certain enough about their partial DNA profile to publicly exclude Weber and LD by virtue of that DNA while avoiding questions about Sheridan's results.

So three donors, each a partial, one partial from saliva, (the other two epithelial cells?), ... so if all three eliminate a person then the person can be said to be 'strongly eliminated' by virtue of three eliminations! ?  :)  If you dont know which sample is Cooper's then you always must test against all three samples.

Any info on confidence levels of each partial?

Oh! and I forgot. If sex of one contributor is known to be female, then AMEL also was tested for and registered on all samples which means they are testing outside of Codis-13 on all samples, up to at least 14 or 15 or more? That would be standard practice and  means .....

I have read that one of the donors was female, however, have been unable to confirm that.

I asked the FBI about the confidence level of the DNA, however, was given a response that avoided the question, instead stating the FBI has been unable to come up with evidence meeting the legal threshold of "beyond a reasonable doubt."

I have asked the same questions but only get back smiles - they cant share specifics is what this boils down to. They know we can extrapolate a lot from from a few details. Tom Kaye may have been one person who said a female was involved? Would have to check notes.

I guess we have to leave it there - thanks and GL! 

BTW just for the record, I dont know anyone in the genetics industry who was personally involved in any of this testing. I even asked around but could not find anyone personally involved at Quantico or elsewhere. Tom Kaye seems to know more than anyone Ive talked to, whoever he got his info from ... ?? 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 27, 2018, 04:29:02 PM
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I wonder about how much to value the tie.  I may be way off here, but if I remember correctly, the tie was found sitting on Cooper's seat.  It's tough to have your clip-on tie fall off, and land underneath you, on your seat.  Also, airline rows are cramped.  So, even if he had stood up, and was facing towards his seat, you would think that a guy who is 5'10"-6'0" would have to be hunched over to stand.  Being hunched over, his head would be positioned looking down.  It would be tough not to notice your tie falling off in that scenario.  That makes me think that he purposely took the tie off and left it in the one spot he knew would ensure it would most likely be linked to him before any other passengers.

I know that DNA wasn't something that criminals thought about back then, but could there have been something else about the tie that Cooper thought would lead investigators in the wrong direction?  Maybe he thought they'd be able to pull fingerprints from a used tie, and picked up a tie at a yard sale, or at Goodwill, or something similar.

A couple of things to keep in mind.

First, I am convinced that he removed the tie with the intent to secure it before he jumped--it would have had no chance of staying attached to his person otherwise.

Second, given Cooper's propensity to hoard possible evidence (depleted matchbook, handwritten notes by him and Mucklow, the presumably fake bomb, etc.) and take it with him, I think it is obvious that leaving the tie was a major oversight. I'm certain when he realized this it sent shivers throughout his body.

Finally, if the Kaye examination of the tie had discovered pieces of a burrito and a drop or two of Budweiser I would still consider the "Goodwill" connection a stretch. That said, the actual discovery of pure titanium, aluminum, steel, rare earth elements and others particles that point to Boeing along with a lot of other evidence is just too much to overlook. If Cooper picked this tie up at Goodwill and it just happened to have these particles on it, in my diseased mind that would be an unbelievable coincidence.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: dice on June 27, 2018, 09:42:06 PM
Quote
First, I am convinced that he removed the tie with the intent to secure it before he jumped-

First thing I do when at a wedding,after the ceremony at the reception I loosen my tie to the point of taking it off. 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: sry828 on June 28, 2018, 11:57:34 AM
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I wonder about how much to value the tie.  I may be way off here, but if I remember correctly, the tie was found sitting on Cooper's seat.  It's tough to have your clip-on tie fall off, and land underneath you, on your seat.  Also, airline rows are cramped.  So, even if he had stood up, and was facing towards his seat, you would think that a guy who is 5'10"-6'0" would have to be hunched over to stand.  Being hunched over, his head would be positioned looking down.  It would be tough not to notice your tie falling off in that scenario.  That makes me think that he purposely took the tie off and left it in the one spot he knew would ensure it would most likely be linked to him before any other passengers.

I know that DNA wasn't something that criminals thought about back then, but could there have been something else about the tie that Cooper thought would lead investigators in the wrong direction?  Maybe he thought they'd be able to pull fingerprints from a used tie, and picked up a tie at a yard sale, or at Goodwill, or something similar.

A couple of things to keep in mind.

First, I am convinced that he removed the tie with the intent to secure it before he jumped--it would have had no chance of staying attached to his person otherwise.

Second, given Cooper's propensity to hoard possible evidence (depleted matchbook, handwritten notes by him and Mucklow, the presumably fake bomb, etc.) and take it with him, I think it is obvious that leaving the tie was a major oversight. I'm certain when he realized this it sent shivers throughout his body.

Finally, if the Kaye examination of the tie had discovered pieces of a burrito and a drop or two of Budweiser I would still consider the "Goodwill" connection a stretch. That said, the actual discovery of pure titanium, aluminum, steel, rare earth elements and others particles that point to Boeing along with a lot of other evidence is just too much to overlook. If Cooper picked this tie up at Goodwill and it just happened to have these particles on it, in my diseased mind that would be an unbelievable coincidence.

Great point, EU.  It would take an incredible coincidence for him to end up getting a tie with elements like that.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on June 28, 2018, 12:04:18 PM
why Anson for the tie clip...

there were many manufacturers of that type known and unknown going back to the 30's

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 28, 2018, 01:41:46 PM
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why Anson for the tie clip...

there were many manufacturers of that type known and unknown going back to the 30's

Anson was a major manufacturer of such items based out of Providence, Rhode Island. I believe the items were sold under the brand name "Stacy."
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: RaoulDuke24 on June 28, 2018, 03:59:31 PM
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.

While a partial sample may be worthless in court, it would not be worthless to us citizen sleuths. If anyone could get their hands on the DNA records (or get their hands on the tie itself and conduct a fresh round of tests), the records could be referenced against public DNA sites like the ones recently being used to take down cold case suspects.

A partial sample would only narrow things down so far, but it would be far from worthless. No guarantees of anything, but plenty of potential to make it worthwhile.

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 28, 2018, 04:02:55 PM
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.

While a partial sample may be worthless in court, it would not be worthless to us citizen sleuths. If anyone could get their hands on the DNA records (or get their hands on the tie itself and conduct a fresh round of tests), the records could be referenced against public DNA sites like the ones recently being used to take down cold case suspects.

A partial sample would only narrow things down so far, but it would be far from worthless. No guarantees of anything, but plenty of potential to make it worthwhile.

Yes, knowing what the FBI results are would be helpful even though the results are inadmissible. Dare I say, we already know the FBI's results...they're actions speak load and clear.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 28, 2018, 05:59:10 PM
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.

While a partial sample may be worthless in court, it would not be worthless to us citizen sleuths. If anyone could get their hands on the DNA records (or get their hands on the tie itself and conduct a fresh round of tests), the records could be referenced against public DNA sites like the ones recently being used to take down cold case suspects.

A partial sample would only narrow things down so far, but it would be far from worthless. No guarantees of anything, but plenty of potential to make it worthwhile.

Anyone want to speculate what loci are positive in each partial? Start with the female donor if one donor is in fact female. You can base this on anything you think is a fact in the case.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on June 29, 2018, 03:36:17 AM
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He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.


Whoa. He was teaching English in a Kirkland HS during 1963-65 or so. Plus he was allegedly getting arrested in Mississippi in 1964, too. These timelines have got to be sorted out.

He was also freelancing at the Eastside Journal circa 1964.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on June 29, 2018, 10:36:21 AM
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He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.


Whoa. He was teaching English in a Kirkland HS during 1963-65 or so. Plus he was allegedly getting arrested in Mississippi in 1964, too. These timelines have got to be sorted out.

He was also freelancing at the Eastside Journal circa 1964.

and the tie was manufactured in 1966.. how could SP get "particles" on it at Boeing if he had left..
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 29, 2018, 11:53:54 AM
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He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.


Whoa. He was teaching English in a Kirkland HS during 1963-65 or so. Plus he was allegedly getting arrested in Mississippi in 1964, too. These timelines have got to be sorted out.

He was also freelancing at the Eastside Journal circa 1964.

Yes, Sheridan worked multiple jobs at the same time for a period. I believe he taught in Kirkland for one year, Sept. '64-May'65.

He was not arrested in Mississippi in 1964. He was sent to Mississippi by the American Federation of Teachers in the summer of 1965 to help establish a freedom school. There were some issues with authorities there, but that had more to do with the authorities detaining people because it was Mississippi in 1965--need I say more.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 29, 2018, 11:59:59 AM
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He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.


Whoa. He was teaching English in a Kirkland HS during 1963-65 or so. Plus he was allegedly getting arrested in Mississippi in 1964, too. These timelines have got to be sorted out.

He was also freelancing at the Eastside Journal circa 1964.

and the tie was manufactured in 1966.. how could SP get "particles" on it at Boeing if he had left..

The tie was not manufactured in 1966.

The tie was manufactured by Remington Apparel Co. in North Carolina in either 1963 or 1964.

This was ascertained by investigating two things. First, the JC Penny logo on the tie. Second, the patent associated with the snap-on contraption incorporated into the tie.

The logo was used from 1963 to 1971. Conclusion, tie was not manufactured before 1963.

The patent was granted 1961 and updated in 1964. Conclusion, tie was not manufactured after 1964.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 29, 2018, 12:11:37 PM
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He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.


Whoa. He was teaching English in a Kirkland HS during 1963-65 or so. Plus he was allegedly getting arrested in Mississippi in 1964, too. These timelines have got to be sorted out.

He was also freelancing at the Eastside Journal circa 1964.

To clarify, Sheridan worked multiple jobs--teaching and writing--at the same time. The "1965" date for leaving Boeing should state "1964."
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on June 29, 2018, 01:07:19 PM
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He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.


Whoa. He was teaching English in a Kirkland HS during 1963-65 or so. Plus he was allegedly getting arrested in Mississippi in 1964, too. These timelines have got to be sorted out.

He was also freelancing at the Eastside Journal circa 1964.

and the tie was manufactured in 1966.. how could SP get "particles" on it at Boeing if he had left..

The tie was not manufactured in 1966.

The tie was manufactured by Remington Apparel Co. in North Carolina in either 1963 or 1964.

This was ascertained by investigating two things. First, the JC Penny logo on the tie. Second, the patent associated with the snap-on contraption incorporated into the tie.

The logo was used from 1963 to 1971. Conclusion, tie was not manufactured before 1963.

The patent was granted 1961 and updated in 1964. Conclusion, tie was not manufactured after 1964.

Where did you get that info.. did it come from me?

I also did the research on it a while ago but lost all the details when my HD crashed.. so I was going by memory.

The logo was used 1964+ and the 1965 patent was granted very late 1965.

That means the tie was likely sold 1965  +/- 6 months..


Back when I was trying to pin it down to a tighter time frame the problem is Patent Application date vs Publication vs Grant..

A manufacturer can use Pat Pending until the grant but they don't have to.. So, that tie could have been made up to NOV/DEC 1965. Sold in 1966.

But, the takeaway is the tie was at least 6 years old at the time of the hijacking, the FBI thought it was 1-2 years old based on a comment from a Penny's manager. If they got that wrong, what else?

.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: sry828 on June 29, 2018, 02:20:23 PM
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He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.


Whoa. He was teaching English in a Kirkland HS during 1963-65 or so. Plus he was allegedly getting arrested in Mississippi in 1964, too. These timelines have got to be sorted out.

He was also freelancing at the Eastside Journal circa 1964.

and the tie was manufactured in 1966.. how could SP get "particles" on it at Boeing if he had left..

The tie was not manufactured in 1966.

The tie was manufactured by Remington Apparel Co. in North Carolina in either 1963 or 1964.

This was ascertained by investigating two things. First, the JC Penny logo on the tie. Second, the patent associated with the snap-on contraption incorporated into the tie.

The logo was used from 1963 to 1971. Conclusion, tie was not manufactured before 1963.

The patent was granted 1961 and updated in 1964. Conclusion, tie was not manufactured after 1964.

Where did you get that info.. did it come from me?

I also did the research on it a while ago but lost all the details when my HD crashed.. so I was going by memory.

The logo was used 1964+ and the 1965 patent was granted very late 1965.

That means the tie was likely sold 1965  +/- 6 months..


Back when I was trying to pin it down to a tighter time frame the problem is Patent Application date vs Publication vs Grant..

A manufacturer can use Pat Pending until the grant but they don't have to.. So, that tie could have been made up to NOV/DEC 1965. Sold in 1966.

But, the takeaway is the tie was at least 6 years old at the time of the hijacking, the FBI thought it was 1-2 years old based on a comment from a Penny's manager. If they got that wrong, what else?

.

This reminds me of something that I had wondered about in the past.  If I'm remembering correctly, the quantity of particles on the tie suggested that it had been worn quite a lot.  (I think that it was the quantity of whichever particles came from match heads that made it seem that way.)  Most of the things I have read say that Cooper would have been an engineer, or manager, because those were the only people who would have worn ties at a place like Boeing back then.  If the tie had been worn a lot, that makes me think it probably didn't belong to an engineer / manager, because people who wear ties to work typically don't wear the same tie over and over.  In my experience, wearing the same tie many times in a short period, instead of rotating ties based on your outfit, is generally something you see from people who wear uniforms.  The fact that it's a clip-on would also be consistent with a uniform.  I'm thinking a security guard at Boeing, or one of the other types of places that would have used titanium, might make more sense.  Security guards often have military backgrounds, which makes it reasonable to think that a security guard at a high security facility might have the background to pull off the hijacking.  They generally wear clip-on ties to avoid the possibility of being choked with their ties in an altercation, and doing rounds through areas where different types of work are being done might explain why the tie had particles that don't seem to mostly be part of one process.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on June 29, 2018, 02:21:35 PM
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He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.


Whoa. He was teaching English in a Kirkland HS during 1963-65 or so. Plus he was allegedly getting arrested in Mississippi in 1964, too. These timelines have got to be sorted out.

He was also freelancing at the Eastside Journal circa 1964.

and the tie was manufactured in 1966.. how could SP get "particles" on it at Boeing if he had left..

The tie was not manufactured in 1966.

The tie was manufactured by Remington Apparel Co. in North Carolina in either 1963 or 1964.

This was ascertained by investigating two things. First, the JC Penny logo on the tie. Second, the patent associated with the snap-on contraption incorporated into the tie.

The logo was used from 1963 to 1971. Conclusion, tie was not manufactured before 1963.

The patent was granted 1961 and updated in 1964. Conclusion, tie was not manufactured after 1964.

Where did you get that info.. did it come from me?

I also did the research on it a while ago but lost all the details when my HD crashed.. so I was going by memory.

The logo was used 1964+ and the 1965 patent was granted very late 1965.

That means the tie was likely sold 1965  +/- 6 months..


Back when I was trying to pin it down to a tighter time frame the problem is Patent Application date vs Publication vs Grant..

A manufacturer can use Pat Pending until the grant but they don't have to.. So, that tie could have been made up to NOV/DEC 1965. Sold in 1966.

But, the takeaway is the tie was at least 6 years old at the time of the hijacking, the FBI thought it was 1-2 years old based on a comment from a Penny's manager. If they got that wrong, what else?

.

The info came from my research.

JC Penny started using the logo in 1963.

The patent was granted in 1961. The updated patent was filed in December 1964, and granted November 1965.

The ties were manufactured in a large lot. Meaning there was a massive order placed with Remington from JC Penny. The last of these ties sold at the Portland JC Penny in 1968. Vegas said they may have had some until 1970.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 29, 2018, 02:23:27 PM
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He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.


Whoa. He was teaching English in a Kirkland HS during 1963-65 or so. Plus he was allegedly getting arrested in Mississippi in 1964, too. These timelines have got to be sorted out.

He was also freelancing at the Eastside Journal circa 1964.

and the tie was manufactured in 1966.. how could SP get "particles" on it at Boeing if he had left..

The tie was not manufactured in 1966.

The tie was manufactured by Remington Apparel Co. in North Carolina in either 1963 or 1964.

This was ascertained by investigating two things. First, the JC Penny logo on the tie. Second, the patent associated with the snap-on contraption incorporated into the tie.

The logo was used from 1963 to 1971. Conclusion, tie was not manufactured before 1963.

The patent was granted 1961 and updated in 1964. Conclusion, tie was not manufactured after 1964.

Where did you get that info.. did it come from me?

I also did the research on it a while ago but lost all the details when my HD crashed.. so I was going by memory.

The logo was used 1964+ and the 1965 patent was granted very late 1965.

That means the tie was likely sold 1965  +/- 6 months..


Back when I was trying to pin it down to a tighter time frame the problem is Patent Application date vs Publication vs Grant..

A manufacturer can use Pat Pending until the grant but they don't have to.. So, that tie could have been made up to NOV/DEC 1965. Sold in 1966.

But, the takeaway is the tie was at least 6 years old at the time of the hijacking, the FBI thought it was 1-2 years old based on a comment from a Penny's manager. If they got that wrong, what else?

.

This reminds me of something that I had wondered about in the past.  If I'm remembering correctly, the quantity of particles on the tie suggested that it had been worn quite a lot.  (I think that it was the quantity of whichever particles came from match heads that made it seem that way.)  Most of the things I have read say that Cooper would have been an engineer, or manager, because those were the only people who would have worn ties at a place like Boeing back then.  If the tie had been worn a lot, that makes me think it probably didn't belong to an engineer / manager, because people who wear ties to work typically don't wear the same tie over and over.  In my experience, wearing the same tie many times in a short period, instead of rotating ties based on your outfit, is generally something you see from people who wear uniforms.  The fact that it's a clip-on would also be consistent with a uniform.  I'm thinking a security guard at Boeing, or one of the other types of places that would have used titanium, might make more sense.  Security guards often have military backgrounds, which makes it reasonable to think that a security guard at a high security facility might have the background to pull off the hijacking.  They generally wear clip-on ties to avoid the possibility of being choked with their ties in an altercation, and doing rounds through areas where different types of work are being done might explain why the tie had particles that don't seem to mostly be part of one process.

in other words, how old are the particles on the tie? say 1963-1972-2018 ?  ;)   Some smoking related particles should date from 11-24-71 itself.

A whole bunch of questions about the particles and the tie havent been answered: particles on front vs back, direction of arrival of heavier particles on the front of the tie, energy of particles arrival .... didnt Cooper supposedly spill a drink during the hijacking ...

details like that.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: sry828 on June 29, 2018, 02:44:23 PM
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in other words, how old are the particles on the tie? say 1963-1972-2018 ?  ;)   Some smoking related particles should date from 11-24-71 itself.

I'm wondering more about how many times the tie would have needed to be worn (presumably for 8 hours per day) to accumulate the quantity of particles.  I have no idea where one would even find statistics about how many ties the average engineer / manager rotates for work, but I would guess that a typical person wearing a tie to work that isn't part of a uniform would probably be rotating a minimum of four or five ties.  If the quantity of particles seems like they would only be accumulated from more frequent wearing, that might suggest someone who wears a uniform.

I could be way off, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: sry828 on June 29, 2018, 02:50:42 PM
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in other words, how old are the particles on the tie? say 1963-1972-2018 ?  ;)   Some smoking related particles should date from 11-24-71 itself.

A whole bunch of questions about the particles and the tie havent been answered: particles on front vs back, direction of arrival of heavier particles on the front of the tie, energy of particles arrival .... didnt Cooper supposedly spill a drink during the hijacking ...

details like that.

Good point about the spilled drink.  I had considered that there would be a level of attrition of the particles from brushing up against things, wiping off food, etc.  I hadn't thought about the drink, though.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 29, 2018, 04:33:11 PM
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in other words, how old are the particles on the tie? say 1963-1972-2018 ?  ;)   Some smoking related particles should date from 11-24-71 itself.

A whole bunch of questions about the particles and the tie havent been answered: particles on front vs back, direction of arrival of heavier particles on the front of the tie, energy of particles arrival .... didnt Cooper supposedly spill a drink during the hijacking ...

details like that.

Good point about the spilled drink.  I had considered that there would be a level of attrition of the particles from brushing up against things, wiping off food, etc.  I hadn't thought about the drink, though.

another question: what lab work did the FBI do on that tie immediately after the Hjacking? Any?

Where's the reports?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: sry828 on June 29, 2018, 05:29:57 PM
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another question: what lab work did the FBI do on that tie immediately after the Hjacking? Any?

Where's the reports?

If this video is any indication, it seems like they would have been looking mostly for hairs to determine race, and blood to get a blood type:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMAQnV51VK8

The section I'm looking at starts around 8:15.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on June 29, 2018, 11:29:30 PM
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another question: what lab work did the FBI do on that tie immediately after the Hjacking? Any?

Where's the reports?

If this video is any indication, it seems like they would have been looking mostly for hairs to determine race, and blood to get a blood type:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMAQnV51VK8

The section I'm looking at starts around 8:15.

In 1971 thats about right - and prints of course. But they could have collected particles and done some kind of analysis- did they? They did lab work on the Ingram money, why not the tie?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: sry828 on July 02, 2018, 10:59:27 AM
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In 1971 thats about right - and prints of course. But they could have collected particles and done some kind of analysis- did they? They did lab work on the Ingram money, why not the tie?

Since Ingram found the money almost a decade later, I would guess that the FBI had a different standard operating procedure for what they did with evidence.  They probably did whatever tests were standard at the time, but probably never thought to go back and test the old evidence.  That's just my suspicion, though.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 07, 2018, 11:42:33 AM
FYI, the report, DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson, is now available. It starts out by providing an overview of the skyjacking. It then discusses the evidence. Next it discusses the DB Cooper profile which leads to exploring suspects. Ultimately it settles upon Sheridan and goes into detail regarding his life and his ties to the skyjacking.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Shutter on July 07, 2018, 01:48:54 PM
where can this be found?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 07, 2018, 02:25:04 PM
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where can this be found?

https://TheCooperCase.com
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: dice on July 07, 2018, 09:53:53 PM
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FYI, the report, DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson, is now available. It starts out by providing an overview of the skyjacking. It then discusses the evidence. Next it discusses the DB Cooper profile which leads to exploring suspects. Ultimately it settles upon Sheridan and goes into detail regarding his life and his ties to the skyjacking.

Holy shit..... we need a cleansing of the Cooper Temple of all the merchants and money changers...  My goodness, how NAIVE I have been....   half the people here are ONLY about the money, and pushing their wares....

Dave, if you were to somehow earmark the avatars of all these posters who have a $ agenda, say, with a $, I sure wouldn't object !!!
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 07, 2018, 10:39:59 PM
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FYI, the report, DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson, is now available. It starts out by providing an overview of the skyjacking. It then discusses the evidence. Next it discusses the DB Cooper profile which leads to exploring suspects. Ultimately it settles upon Sheridan and goes into detail regarding his life and his ties to the skyjacking.

Holy shit..... we need a cleansing of the Cooper Temple of all the merchants and money changers...  My goodness, how NAIVE I have been....   half the people here are ONLY about the money, and pushing their wares....

Dave, if you were to somehow earmark the avatars of all these posters who have a $ agenda, say, with a $, I sure wouldn't object !!!

DING DING DING, Dice is the winner! I knew there would be someone who complained...there's always someone who hates capitalism and is willing to complain about it.

So, just to show that it's not all about the $, anyone, not named Dice, who goes to the https://thecoopercase.com website this weekend, clicks on the contact page and sends me an email at the address listed, I'll gladly send a FREE PDF copy of the report.

Cheers!
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Shutter on July 07, 2018, 11:09:07 PM
I don't have any reason to believe EU is doing this for the money..he didn't even post the link until I asked.

Robert Blevins is someone who has admitted to being in this for the money..no shock there..people can post books or what ever is related to DB Cooper on this forum. I have yet to see people being interviewed by Robin Leach showing off the Cooper riches lol..
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: dice on July 07, 2018, 11:21:47 PM
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FYI, the report, DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson, is now available. It starts out by providing an overview of the skyjacking. It then discusses the evidence. Next it discusses the DB Cooper profile which leads to exploring suspects. Ultimately it settles upon Sheridan and goes into detail regarding his life and his ties to the skyjacking.

Holy shit..... we need a cleansing of the Cooper Temple of all the merchants and money changers...  My goodness, how NAIVE I have been....   half the people here are ONLY about the money, and pushing their wares....

Dave, if you were to somehow earmark the avatars of all these posters who have a $ agenda, say, with a $, I sure wouldn't object !!!

DING DING DING, Dice is the winner! I knew there would be someone who complained...there's always someone who hates capitalism and is willing to complain about it.

So, just to show that it's not all about the $, anyone, not named Dice, who goes to the https://thecoopercase.com website this weekend, clicks on the contact page and sends me an email at the address listed, I'll gladly send a FREE PDF copy of the report.

Cheers!

What a trouper.... out of the goodness of your blessed heart, you are gonna give a few free copies...     And I forgive you !!!  Your retort was colorful and witty and humorous... bravo......... but to say I'm red??? Oof...them are fighthing words... nonetheless, I still share the same distaste here as Charles Grodin did in the film Midnight Run, when he chastises DeNiro for being "all about f**king the money"
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on July 08, 2018, 08:45:17 AM
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FYI, the report, DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson, is now available. It starts out by providing an overview of the skyjacking. It then discusses the evidence. Next it discusses the DB Cooper profile which leads to exploring suspects. Ultimately it settles upon Sheridan and goes into detail regarding his life and his ties to the skyjacking.

Holy shit..... we need a cleansing of the Cooper Temple of all the merchants and money changers...  My goodness, how NAIVE I have been....   half the people here are ONLY about the money, and pushing their wares....

Dave, if you were to somehow earmark the avatars of all these posters who have a $ agenda, say, with a $, I sure wouldn't object !!!

DING DING DING, Dice is the winner! I knew there would be someone who complained...there's always someone who hates capitalism and is willing to complain about it.

So, just to show that it's not all about the $, anyone, not named Dice, who goes to the https://thecoopercase.com website this weekend, clicks on the contact page and sends me an email at the address listed, I'll gladly send a FREE PDF copy of the report.

Cheers!

What a trouper.... out of the goodness of your blessed heart, you are gonna give a few free copies...     And I forgive you !!!  Your retort was colorful and witty and humorous... bravo......... but to say I'm red??? Oof...them are fighthing words... nonetheless, I still share the same distaste here as Charles Grodin did in the film Midnight Run, when he chastises DeNiro for being "all about f**king the money"

There is no money in writing, it is loads of hard work and minuscule/no reward.. I could never do it..

There is nothing wrong with attempting to monetizing your work, probably pennies per hour for most. People don't do it for the money, they usually have a passion.

I don't know how writers do it..
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: dice on July 08, 2018, 06:41:08 PM
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FYI, the report, DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson, is now available. It starts out by providing an overview of the skyjacking. It then discusses the evidence. Next it discusses the DB Cooper profile which leads to exploring suspects. Ultimately it settles upon Sheridan and goes into detail regarding his life and his ties to the skyjacking.

Holy shit..... we need a cleansing of the Cooper Temple of all the merchants and money changers...  My goodness, how NAIVE I have been....   half the people here are ONLY about the money, and pushing their wares....

Dave, if you were to somehow earmark the avatars of all these posters who have a $ agenda, say, with a $, I sure wouldn't object !!!

DING DING DING, Dice is the winner! I knew there would be someone who complained...there's always someone who hates capitalism and is willing to complain about it.

So, just to show that it's not all about the $, anyone, not named Dice, who goes to the https://thecoopercase.com website this weekend, clicks on the contact page and sends me an email at the address listed, I'll gladly send a FREE PDF copy of the report.

Cheers!

What a trouper.... out of the goodness of your blessed heart, you are gonna give a few free copies...     And I forgive you !!!  Your retort was colorful and witty and humorous... bravo......... but to say I'm red??? Oof...them are fighthing words... nonetheless, I still share the same distaste here as Charles Grodin did in the film Midnight Run, when he chastises DeNiro for being "all about f**king the money"

There is no money in writing, it is loads of hard work and minuscule/no reward.. I could never do it..

There is nothing wrong with attempting to monetizing your work, probably pennies per hour for most. People don't do it for the money, they usually have a passion.

I don't know how writers do it..

Don't get me wrong,...am not against writing.  What I am against is any hidden agenda or deception, and  I also do have a problem with those pushing a shoddy suspect and profiting from it...
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on July 08, 2018, 06:53:23 PM
Big difference between charging for copies and profiting, esp in the Cooper Vortex. No authors in this subject area are driving Lamborghinis.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 08, 2018, 07:34:30 PM
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Big difference between charging for copies and profiting, esp in the Cooper Vortex. No authors in this subject area are driving Lamborghinis.

377

Actually, the picture of me that I used in the back of the report (below) is with a Lamborghini.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 08, 2018, 11:19:53 PM
Some of us are driving Toyota Camrys. Mine feels like a Lambo. Just sayin'...
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: MeyerLouie on July 09, 2018, 01:43:24 AM
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Big difference between charging for copies and profiting, esp in the Cooper Vortex. No authors in this subject area are driving Lamborghinis.

377

Actually, the picture of me that I used in the back of the report (below) is with a Lamborghini.


Well, at least you all know how to spell Lamborghini.  Not sure why you'd want to post that here on the DB Cooper forum -- Cooper bought one with the loot -- maybe that's the connection.  Or are we all just supposed to be impressed?

Meyer
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Shutter on July 10, 2018, 12:35:50 AM
"Well, at least you all know how to spell Lamborghini.  Not sure why you'd want to post that here on the DB Cooper forum -- Cooper bought one with the loot -- maybe that's the connection.  Or are we all just supposed to be impressed?

Meyer"

The reason he posted the picture was due to the comment made by 377 and the fact of it be posted on the back of the report so it seems to be relevant and Cooper related...

Quote
Big difference between charging for copies and profiting, esp in the Cooper Vortex. No authors in this subject area are driving Lamborghinis.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Lynn on July 10, 2018, 01:21:17 AM
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"Well, at least you all know how to spell Lamborghini.  Not sure why you'd want to post that here on the DB Cooper forum -- Cooper bought one with the loot -- maybe that's the connection.  Or are we all just supposed to be impressed?

Meyer"

The reason he posted the picture was due to the comment made by 377 and the fact of it be posted on the back of the report so it seems to be relevant and Cooper related...

Quote
Big difference between charging for copies and profiting, esp in the Cooper Vortex. No authors in this subject area are driving Lamborghinis.

377
I have read the report, and there's a lot to discuss! Looking forward to it. I don't care what anyone drives; I ride a bike. Perhaps I have my Cooper tan from so many months reading through this forum, but all jabs aside, I find the mix of people here fascinating. I mean, we're all mad here, that's the nature of a rabbit-hole, but honestly, between the pilots, the skydivers (I almost said jackers, any  skyjackers here - haaaannnds up!), investigators, writers, scientists, lawyers and a nice little bloodless puzzle that would make Poirot pull out his moustache, I say vive la différence and let's take a proper look at Mr. P.  8) :chr2: O0
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: dice on July 10, 2018, 01:25:45 PM
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Big difference between charging for copies and profiting, esp in the Cooper Vortex. No authors in this subject area are driving Lamborghinis.

377

Actually, the picture of me that I used in the back of the report (below) is with a Lamborghini.
Cool photo !!! ... I hope thats a Montecristo White Label cigar you are smoking.  But, in Cooper writer tradition, you were supposed to have a banana in your hand, not a cigar, for your book cover...
 :rofl:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51bifp1GWoL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: dice on July 10, 2018, 01:28:22 PM
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Some of us are driving Toyota Camrys. Mine feels like a Lambo. Just sayin'...

 :bravo:   Yeah baby... I like seeing a personal touch to this site, with these car photos....   both are handsome men.
[/quote]

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 11, 2018, 12:07:02 PM
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Some of us are driving Toyota Camrys. Mine feels like a Lambo. Just sayin'...

The Lambo isn't mine...just one we used for a photo shoot. I did drive it and I must say it sucked. Way too small for a 6'3" 225 lbs person. The Camry is a much better option.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Shutter on July 13, 2018, 12:27:45 PM
Robert blevins claims the same thing  with the FBI..he says an agent by the name of Jarvis said Kenny was Cooper and closed the case because he's dead lol
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 13, 2018, 12:55:20 PM
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Robert blevins claims the same thing  with the FBI..he says an agent by the name of Jarvis said Kenny was Cooper and closed the case because he's dead lol

I pulled the video...need to fix an item or two before I re-post.

Regarding Kenny and the FBI claiming he's Cooper: Where's his proof?

On the other hand, Sheridan has mentioned multiple times that the FBI told him they believe he's Cooper...History Channel doc and 2007 Smokejumper article to name two.

Also, I reached out to Fryar and asked her about this claim, specifically, if Sheridan had represented the claim accurately. She did not directly answer the question--because she cannot for privacy reasons--but rather cryptically stated he was a "definite suspect...that is why we were sent to find him."

Moreover, when I spoke with Ayn Dietrich-Williams about Sheridan she also ignored my direct question and stated that they have evidence in the case but not enough to meet the legal standard of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt."

The reason the case was closed in 2016 is because the AUSA determined that there is not enough evidence to convict their suspect and they do not want to expend resources any longer on suspects they know are not Cooper (they're obliged to do this) especially with the 50th anniversary of the hijacking coming up in a few years and the inevitable crush of new tips.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: sry828 on July 13, 2018, 01:04:58 PM
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Robert blevins claims the same thing  with the FBI..he says an agent by the name of Jarvis said Kenny was Cooper and closed the case because he's dead lol

I pulled the video...need to fix an item or two before I re-post.

Regarding Kenny and the FBI claiming he's Cooper: Where's his proof?

On the other hand, Sheridan has mentioned multiple times that the FBI told him they believe he's Cooper...History Channel doc and 2007 Smokejumper article to name two.

Also, I reached out to Fryar and asked her about this claim, specifically, if Sheridan had represented the claim accurately. She did not directly answer the question--because she cannot for privacy reasons--but rather cryptically stated he was a "definite suspect...that is why we were sent to find him."

Moreover, when I spoke with Ayn Dietrich-Williams about Sheridan she also ignored my direct question and stated that they have evidence in the case but not enough to meet the legal standard of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt."

The reason the case was closed in 2016 is because the AUSA determined that there is not enough evidence to convict their suspect and they do not want to expend resources any longer on suspects they know are not Cooper (they're obliged to do this) especially with the 50th anniversary of the hijacking coming up in a few years and the inevitable crush of new tips.

So, Fryar couldn't confirm Sheridan's claim that the FBI think's he's Cooper because of "privacy," but she could say that he was a "definite suspect?"  It seems like those statements would either both be a violation of privacy, or they both wouldn't be.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 13, 2018, 01:54:23 PM
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Robert blevins claims the same thing  with the FBI..he says an agent by the name of Jarvis said Kenny was Cooper and closed the case because he's dead lol

I pulled the video...need to fix an item or two before I re-post.

Regarding Kenny and the FBI claiming he's Cooper: Where's his proof?

On the other hand, Sheridan has mentioned multiple times that the FBI told him they believe he's Cooper...History Channel doc and 2007 Smokejumper article to name two.

Also, I reached out to Fryar and asked her about this claim, specifically, if Sheridan had represented the claim accurately. She did not directly answer the question--because she cannot for privacy reasons--but rather cryptically stated he was a "definite suspect...that is why we were sent to find him."

Moreover, when I spoke with Ayn Dietrich-Williams about Sheridan she also ignored my direct question and stated that they have evidence in the case but not enough to meet the legal standard of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt."

The reason the case was closed in 2016 is because the AUSA determined that there is not enough evidence to convict their suspect and they do not want to expend resources any longer on suspects they know are not Cooper (they're obliged to do this) especially with the 50th anniversary of the hijacking coming up in a few years and the inevitable crush of new tips.

So, Fryar couldn't confirm Sheridan's claim that the FBI think's he's Cooper because of "privacy," but she could say that he was a "definite suspect?"  It seems like those statements would either both be a violation of privacy, or they both wouldn't be.

The FBI cannot confirm their suspicions publicly due to privacy requirements. That said, they can reveal their suspicions directly to the suspect. At that point, if the suspect wants to make this revelation public than that's his choice. Obviously Sheridan is already publicly known as a suspect so she's not breaking any rules here. Taking it to the next level and verifying that Sheridan is "the" suspect is another matter entirely.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: MarkBennett on July 13, 2018, 03:56:26 PM
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Robert blevins claims the same thing  with the FBI..he says an agent by the name of Jarvis said Kenny was Cooper and closed the case because he's dead lol

I pulled the video...need to fix an item or two before I re-post.

Regarding Kenny and the FBI claiming he's Cooper: Where's his proof?

On the other hand, Sheridan has mentioned multiple times that the FBI told him they believe he's Cooper...History Channel doc and 2007 Smokejumper article to name two.

Also, I reached out to Fryar and asked her about this claim, specifically, if Sheridan had represented the claim accurately. She did not directly answer the question--because she cannot for privacy reasons--but rather cryptically stated he was a "definite suspect...that is why we were sent to find him."

Moreover, when I spoke with Ayn Dietrich-Williams about Sheridan she also ignored my direct question and stated that they have evidence in the case but not enough to meet the legal standard of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt."

The reason the case was closed in 2016 is because the AUSA determined that there is not enough evidence to convict their suspect and they do not want to expend resources any longer on suspects they know are not Cooper (they're obliged to do this) especially with the 50th anniversary of the hijacking coming up in a few years and the inevitable crush of new tips.

I never got the impression the FBI had a "definite" suspect.  The last suspect to investigate was LD Cooper, and they did one final attempt to match his fingerprints before closing the case in 2016.  After that, it seems like they didn't have anything else to pursue with anyone out of the suspect pool.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 13, 2018, 04:37:21 PM
YouTube clip (7:34) from me regarding my investigation and my report.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7um_EPyC9eo
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 13, 2018, 04:40:59 PM
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Robert blevins claims the same thing  with the FBI..he says an agent by the name of Jarvis said Kenny was Cooper and closed the case because he's dead lol

I pulled the video...need to fix an item or two before I re-post.

Regarding Kenny and the FBI claiming he's Cooper: Where's his proof?

On the other hand, Sheridan has mentioned multiple times that the FBI told him they believe he's Cooper...History Channel doc and 2007 Smokejumper article to name two.

Also, I reached out to Fryar and asked her about this claim, specifically, if Sheridan had represented the claim accurately. She did not directly answer the question--because she cannot for privacy reasons--but rather cryptically stated he was a "definite suspect...that is why we were sent to find him."

Moreover, when I spoke with Ayn Dietrich-Williams about Sheridan she also ignored my direct question and stated that they have evidence in the case but not enough to meet the legal standard of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt."

The reason the case was closed in 2016 is because the AUSA determined that there is not enough evidence to convict their suspect and they do not want to expend resources any longer on suspects they know are not Cooper (they're obliged to do this) especially with the 50th anniversary of the hijacking coming up in a few years and the inevitable crush of new tips.

I never got the impression the FBI had a "definite" suspect.  The last suspect to investigate was LD Cooper, and they did one final attempt to match his fingerprints before closing the case in 2016.  After that, it seems like they didn't have anything else to pursue with anyone out of the suspect pool.

EU is CIA and has taken over this page and the FBI invrestigation of DB Cooper. You can believe EU!    :rofl:
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 14, 2018, 04:31:16 AM
Cooperland is full of people claiming all kinds of things - its comparable to a cult. If a person comes out of nowhere claiming to have communed with Jehova ... please show a good photo of the toast and name the toaster. It's a small request and benign, in service of legitimacy. Some people have a lot of gall. Gall does not suffice for simple credibility.

We have had a lot of people claim to have talked to agents, offices, spokes-persons, .... its unending. Some of the reports are credible, some are fantastical. There are countless examples one can site.

Just sayin . . .  :) 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 14, 2018, 09:48:57 AM
I've noticed that there are three types of people who come to this site.

1) There are those who simply read, observe and say little. They just want to learn about the case and the theories surrounding the case.

2) There are those that actively and civilly contribute to the site by way of investigation and discussion. I believe I fit into this category.

3) There are those that criticize, complain, condescend and impugn the work of others. It's both pathetic and embarrassing at the same time.

A quick review of previous posts in any of the threads on this site reveal who is who and ultimately say a lot about the person behind the post.

Be kind. It's really very easy.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 14, 2018, 02:22:38 PM
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How can you be so certain that the FBI didn't eliminate Sheridan Peterson as a viable suspect based on DNA tests? Silence doesn't necessarily mean it was a possible match. They did announce results on Duane Weber and LD Cooper DNA tests, but those were high publicity cases. When Sheridan was tested there was little or no press interest in him.

Your position that the FBI never cleared Sheridan on DNA is in dispute. Sheridan says in his July 2007 Smoke Jumper magazine article: "Several days later, one of the agents paid me a second visit. She assured me that there were no matches for my DNA."

I know Sheridan Peterson. He told me some wild tales about sport jumping in Vietnam during the war, something that I initially suspected was exaggerated or even made up. A friend who served in the RVN Army as a paratrooper and also made skydives with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club verified every last detail of Sheridan's account including DZ location, aircraft used and anecdotes about the clubs tyrannical leader Duffy. His stories about being in Beijing and witnessing the Tiananmen Square massacre were also met by some skepticism on my part but it later checked out through independent sources. In short, I have found him to be truthful. How can you be so sure he is not truthful about the FBI clearing him on DNA?

377

I spoke multiple times with Mary Jean Fryar about Sheridan’s claims, and Bruce Smith’s claims, of negative DNA results. She verified that she DID NOT say that the FBI’s DNA analysis cleared Sheridan. She stated that once the DNA was taken it was sent in to be processed. At that point it is “RUC”—returned up on completion—thereby closing the task on her end. This means her job is done and that she is unlikely to receive any information about the results—by the way, which often take weeks or months to process. Therefore, she can’t even verify that his DNA was tested. I believe there simply was some miscommunication that led to Sheridan’s and Bruce’s claims.

That said, I investigated and determined that the FBI had in fact NOT publicly cleared Sheridan by virtue of his DNA test as they had done with both Weber and LD Cooper. So, I gave them a chance by reaching out to Ayn Dietrich-Williams and specifically asking about clearing him as had been done previously, therefore establishing a precedent. Dietrich-Williams responded by stating “out of respect for the privacy of individuals, the FBI does not typically comment on subjects in the NORJACK investigation.” It stands to reason, if the FBI had previously cleared Sheridan they would have reiterated that fact. Furthermore, it stands to reason if the DNA did clear Sheridan that they would have taken the opportunity to do that as well.

Not to put too fine a point on it but consider this: Sheridan’s DNA was submitted in 2003, Larry Carr, the former point agent on the NORJACK case, as you well know, actually struck up a brief correspondence with Sheridan and purchased his book several years later—approximately 2010. Why would Carr do this if the DNA had cleared Sheridan years earlier? The implication is that at a minimum the test wasn’t processed. However, this seems highly unlikely especially when you consider that the FBI actually investigated Sheridan’s time in Deer Park, Washington and Nepal—no easy task.

None of this is proof that the DNA was processed or that it came back as a hit. However, in totality, the implication is suspect and I have proven that the FBI hasn’t cleared Sheridan publicly and that the FBI has remained remarkably silent regarding Sheridan for some reason.

Dietrich-Williams responded by stating “out of respect for the privacy of individuals, the FBI does not typically comment on subjects in the NORJACK investigation.” It stands to reason, if the FBI had previously cleared Sheridan they would have reiterated that fact.

No. It does not stand to reason. (That's your conclusion) Dietrich-Williams responded by stating  “out of respect for the privacy of individuals, the FBI does not typically comment on subjects in the NORJACK investigation.”

The FBI might have found a dollar. The FBI wont comment whether they found a dollar. Since finding a dollar is important (to you) they must have found a dollar!

Wilkes-Booth jumped from a balcony after shooting Pres. Lincoln. (He broke his leg.) Was balcony jumping (skydiving from balconies) a vital part of the Lincoln assassination? Balcony jumpers say it is. They point to another famous balcony jumper, Martin Maris, who lived in Paris. Was Martin Maris John Wilkes-Booth?   

A cult has developed around Sheridan Peterson in this DB Cooper forum, promoted primarily by 377 and Sailshaw and now you and a few others. Peterson himself has gone some distance in helping develop that cult uncertainty. He likes all the attention! Beware of skydivers and their like-minded invested friends, offering free rides and a whole way of life! Some even claim skydivers have a special gene. Did Cooper have that? http://sites.bu.edu/ombs/2016/10/25/would-you-go-skydiving/ 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 14, 2018, 03:16:51 PM
Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 14, 2018, 05:34:36 PM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 14, 2018, 06:03:35 PM
Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on July 14, 2018, 06:40:54 PM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 14, 2018, 06:41:38 PM
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Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.

I agree. To the best of my knowledge there are only two people alive who firmly believe Sheridan was DB Cooper--me and Sheridan.

Also, Bruce, count me in the next time you grab a pastrami sandwich at Ben's Deli.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 14, 2018, 08:08:32 PM
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Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.

Let me critique my own analysis! I think 77 and EU and others, know Pete's lifetime personality a lot better than I do which is to say my judgement about his personality is marginal at best. I think 77 as much as said at one time that he 'could not see Petey building a bomb, taking people hostage, and hijacking a plan' ? Did 377 say that? That is sort of how I see Peterson based on everything Ive absorbed in these forums over the years. In addition I thought I learned that 'money' was not that important to Peterson vs other social values and concerns. Peterson had strong social values and went to Tibet to get away from the 'military industrial complex' world. I dont see that slate of values in DB Cooper.

Remember, I sent my friend Lt Col C.A. to check at the hospital where Petey apparently worked and had his wife for child birth in Tibet. CA and his wife were doing relief work in Tibet after an earthquake. Nobody in that area could quite remember Petey. I reported that result at DZ years ago.  [BTW C.A. died near Annapolis MD last Sunday. Lifelong friend of mine since birth. He will be sorely missed. It was C.A. who had met and talked to the SR71 pilot also - pure coincidence in his life.]

Maybe my assessment of SP's life trajectory/personality doesn't hold up to scrutiny?   
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 14, 2018, 09:11:23 PM
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Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.

Let me critique my own analysis! I think 77 and EU and others, know Pete's lifetime personality a lot better than I do which is to say my judgement about his personality is marginal at best. I think 77 as much as said at one time that he 'could not see Petey building a bomb, taking people hostage, and hijacking a plan' ? Did 377 say that? That is sort of how I see Peterson based on everything Ive absorbed in these forums over the years. In addition I thought I learned that 'money' was not that important to Peterson vs other social values and concerns. Peterson had strong social values and went to Tibet to get away from the 'military industrial complex' world. I dont see that slate of values in DB Cooper.

Remember, I sent my friend Lt Col C.A. to check at the hospital where Petey apparently worked and had his wife for child birth in Tibet. CA and his wife were doing relief work in Tibet after an earthquake. Nobody in that area could quite remember Petey. I reported that result at DZ years ago.  [BTW C.A. died near Annapolis MD last Sunday. Lifelong friend of mine since birth. He will be sorely missed. It was C.A. who had met and talked to the SR71 pilot also - pure coincidence in his life.]

Maybe my assessment of SP's life trajectory/personality doesn't hold up to scrutiny?

I'll give you my honest assessment of Sheridan, with whom I've talked, texted, and emailed many times.

First, I arrived at Sheridan as DB Cooper after nailing down the facts in the case, creating a profile of Cooper, then reviewing FBI suspects because I thought it was likely that the FBI had already come across the "Real DB Cooper" during their investigation but couldn't nail him with the evidence. I did not have a horse in this race until the end.

Second, Sheridan is accurately described as an angry man who feels he has been underappreciated through out his life. That said, he has always had a personality problem. Case in point: It was the well-liked and respected Linn Emrich who brought Sheridan to the FBI's attention within a week of the skyjacking. Remarkably, this was six years after the last time Linn had seen Sheridan in 1965. In fact, in a The Issaquah Press article on December 1, 1971, Linn stated that he and his wife think they know who Cooper is and that "if he is the fellow I think he is, I hope he gets caught."

My point is, it seems that a lot of the people Sheridan has met in life end up having a problem with the man (brother, wives, children, landlords, neighbors, acquaintances, guy at the store, etc.) He has also been very rude to me many times.

I told a friend of Sheridan's recently that Sheridan can go around and profess to care about people and portray himself as a peacenik all he wants, but it doesn't resonate when he treats everyone like shit. Actions really do speak louder than words.

Sheridan is a well-read, well-traveled and smart person, but he seems to be missing something very basic, and that is personal accountability. It is always someone else's fault in his eyes.

Sheridan not only had the know-how and opportunity to skyjack 305, he also had the mindset and personality.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: dice on July 14, 2018, 10:17:43 PM
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Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.

I agree. To the best of my knowledge there are only two people alive who firmly believe Sheridan was DB Cooper--me and Sheridan.

Also, Bruce, count me in the next time you grab a pastrami sandwich at Ben's Deli.

Are you serious?  You didn't know of Bob Sailshaw ?   Sailshaw, may he rest in peace, went to his grave insisting that Sheridan was Cooper.... he posted here for a long time.  And I will tell you the same things I said to him....

Peterson may have had the skills and attributes of someone who could pull off the heist... but there are hundreds more just like him....   but there are several things that void him as Cooper... read all of the 302s, all the eyewitness descriptions that tended to slant to latin, Mexican-American, jet black hair, marcelled, olive skin..etc…. Peterson is no black-Irishman from Mahon ...there is NO mistaking Peterson for any southern European....he is as white as it gets, eyes and all.  If you are gonna say "well, makeup putty!  brown lenses ! etc"  there is no way say Tina would not have picked up on that after five hours.. None....    then you have her not identifying him in the zillion photos shown to her after the caper... same with Mitchell.
And I think his personality might be on the wrong side of the fence. .I'd expect Cooper to be unassuming, not a loud hotshot skydiver, which most of them tend to be.  Nonetheless, I hope you are right here.  I want this darn thing solved.

And btw, its me who goes to Bens Deli and got Bruce to go.  Consider yourself invited. Then we can have a dual monologue !!!!!!   hahahaha
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 14, 2018, 11:47:27 PM
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Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.

I agree. To the best of my knowledge there are only two people alive who firmly believe Sheridan was DB Cooper--me and Sheridan.

Also, Bruce, count me in the next time you grab a pastrami sandwich at Ben's Deli.

Are you serious?  You didn't know of Bob Sailshaw ?   Sailshaw, may he rest in peace, went to his grave insisting that Sheridan was Cooper.... he posted here for a long time.  And I will tell you the same things I said to him....

Peterson may have had the skills and attributes of someone who could pull off the heist... but there are hundreds more just like him....   but there are several things that void him as Cooper... read all of the 302s, all the eyewitness descriptions that tended to slant to latin, Mexican-American, jet black hair, marcelled, olive skin..etc…. Peterson is no black-Irishman from Mahon ...there is NO mistaking Peterson for any southern European....he is as white as it gets, eyes and all.  If you are gonna say "well, makeup putty!  brown lenses ! etc"  there is no way say Tina would not have picked up on that after five hours.. None....    then you have her not identifying him in the zillion photos shown to her after the caper... same with Mitchell.
And I think his personality might be on the wrong side of the fence. .I'd expect Cooper to be unassuming, not a loud hotshot skydiver, which most of them tend to be.  Nonetheless, I hope you are right here.  I want this darn thing solved.

And btw, its me who goes to Bens Deli and got Bruce to go.  Consider yourself invited. Then we can have a dual monologue !!!!!!   hahahaha

The swarthy thing is overstated. I've read the 302s and it's not as if anyone said he was super dark or almost black. He had a little bit of color. Sheridan had been living at the base of the Himalayas for 15 months preceding the skyjacking. So the guy caught some sun...had a tan.

Actually, we don't know whether Tina, Bill or anyone else ever saw Sheridan's picture. In fact, as of May 15, 1972--six months after the skyjacking--they hadn't seen his picture. Regardless, whatever happened, if anything, didn't stop the FBI from paying him a visit 31 years later to grab some DNA, question him, research his alibi in Nepal and check out his previous home in Deer Park, Washington. As for the side-by-side comparison below, that speaks for itself.

The eye color thing, I addressed that previously, they're not certain of the color...hence "possibly brown."

Remember, I'm also speaking of very damning evidence, (i.e., he knew how the dummy reserve was packed, opened a confidential numbered bank account in Singapore in 1971, owned cufflinks that go with the Cooper tie clip set, etc.).

Finally, regarding Ben's Deli, I will take you up on your offer. When I'm in NY I'll reach out.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on July 14, 2018, 11:52:24 PM
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Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.

I agree. To the best of my knowledge there are only two people alive who firmly believe Sheridan was DB Cooper--me and Sheridan.

Also, Bruce, count me in the next time you grab a pastrami sandwich at Ben's Deli.

Are you serious?  You didn't know of Bob Sailshaw ?   Sailshaw, may he rest in peace, went to his grave insisting that Sheridan was Cooper.... he posted here for a long time.  And I will tell you the same things I said to him....

Peterson may have had the skills and attributes of someone who could pull off the heist... but there are hundreds more just like him....   but there are several things that void him as Cooper... read all of the 302s, all the eyewitness descriptions that tended to slant to latin, Mexican-American, jet black hair, marcelled, olive skin..etc…. Peterson is no black-Irishman from Mahon ...there is NO mistaking Peterson for any southern European....he is as white as it gets, eyes and all.  If you are gonna say "well, makeup putty!  brown lenses ! etc"  there is no way say Tina would not have picked up on that after five hours.. None....    then you have her not identifying him in the zillion photos shown to her after the caper... same with Mitchell.
And I think his personality might be on the wrong side of the fence. .I'd expect Cooper to be unassuming, not a loud hotshot skydiver, which most of them tend to be.  Nonetheless, I hope you are right here.  I want this darn thing solved.

And btw, its me who goes to Bens Deli and got Bruce to go.  Consider yourself invited. Then we can have a dual monologue !!!!!!   hahahaha

Dice, can you expand on your analysis of Cooper just based on the "facts" as they are presented in the interviews of the flight attendants and the others that came in contact with him on the date of the hijacking.

I happen to be going through some books on criminal profiling and would be interested in the "thoughts" (not wild-eyed speculations) that anyone has on Cooper's psychological makeup.  And please cite specific reasons for your comments.

While I have spent a substantial amount of time in the NYC area, I have never heard of Ben's Deli.  My recommendation is a sandwich shop in Tucson.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on July 14, 2018, 11:55:12 PM
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Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.

I agree. To the best of my knowledge there are only two people alive who firmly believe Sheridan was DB Cooper--me and Sheridan.

Also, Bruce, count me in the next time you grab a pastrami sandwich at Ben's Deli.

Are you serious?  You didn't know of Bob Sailshaw ?   Sailshaw, may he rest in peace, went to his grave insisting that Sheridan was Cooper.... he posted here for a long time.  And I will tell you the same things I said to him....

Peterson may have had the skills and attributes of someone who could pull off the heist... but there are hundreds more just like him....   but there are several things that void him as Cooper... read all of the 302s, all the eyewitness descriptions that tended to slant to latin, Mexican-American, jet black hair, marcelled, olive skin..etc…. Peterson is no black-Irishman from Mahon ...there is NO mistaking Peterson for any southern European....he is as white as it gets, eyes and all.  If you are gonna say "well, makeup putty!  brown lenses ! etc"  there is no way say Tina would not have picked up on that after five hours.. None....    then you have her not identifying him in the zillion photos shown to her after the caper... same with Mitchell.
And I think his personality might be on the wrong side of the fence. .I'd expect Cooper to be unassuming, not a loud hotshot skydiver, which most of them tend to be.  Nonetheless, I hope you are right here.  I want this darn thing solved.

And btw, its me who goes to Bens Deli and got Bruce to go.  Consider yourself invited. Then we can have a dual monologue !!!!!!   hahahaha

The swarthy thing is overstated. I've read the 302s and it's not as if anyone said he was super dark or almost black. He had a little bit of color. Sheridan had been living at the base of the Himalayas for 15 months preceding the skyjacking. So the guy caught some sun...had a tan.

As for the side-by-side comparison below, that speaks for itself.

The eye color thing, I addressed that previously, they're not certain of the color...hence "possibly brown."

Remember, I'm also speaking of very damning evidence, (i.e., he knew how the dummy reserve was packed, opened a confidential numbered bank account in Singapore in 1971, owned cufflinks that go with the Cooper tie clip set, etc.).

Finally, regarding Ben's Deli, I will take you up on your offer. When I'm in NY I'll reach out.

I've known Italians who considered themselves to have dark complections.  I could not see anything dark about their complections.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: MeyerLouie on July 15, 2018, 07:58:31 AM
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Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.

I agree. To the best of my knowledge there are only two people alive who firmly believe Sheridan was DB Cooper--me and Sheridan.

Also, Bruce, count me in the next time you grab a pastrami sandwich at Ben's Deli.

Are you serious?  You didn't know of Bob Sailshaw ?   Sailshaw, may he rest in peace, went to his grave insisting that Sheridan was Cooper.... he posted here for a long time.  And I will tell you the same things I said to him....

Peterson may have had the skills and attributes of someone who could pull off the heist... but there are hundreds more just like him....   but there are several things that void him as Cooper... read all of the 302s, all the eyewitness descriptions that tended to slant to latin, Mexican-American, jet black hair, marcelled, olive skin..etc…. Peterson is no black-Irishman from Mahon ...there is NO mistaking Peterson for any southern European....he is as white as it gets, eyes and all.  If you are gonna say "well, makeup putty!  brown lenses ! etc"  there is no way say Tina would not have picked up on that after five hours.. None....    then you have her not identifying him in the zillion photos shown to her after the caper... same with Mitchell.
And I think his personality might be on the wrong side of the fence. .I'd expect Cooper to be unassuming, not a loud hotshot skydiver, which most of them tend to be.  Nonetheless, I hope you are right here.  I want this darn thing solved.

And btw, its me who goes to Bens Deli and got Bruce to go.  Consider yourself invited. Then we can have a dual monologue !!!!!!   hahahaha

The swarthy thing is overstated. I've read the 302s and it's not as if anyone said he was super dark or almost black. He had a little bit of color. Sheridan had been living at the base of the Himalayas for 15 months preceding the skyjacking. So the guy caught some sun...had a tan.

Actually, we don't know whether Tina, Bill or anyone else ever saw Sheridan's picture. In fact, as of May 15, 1972--six months after the skyjacking--they hadn't seen his picture. Regardless, whatever happened, if anything, didn't stop the FBI from paying him a visit 31 years later to grab some DNA, question him, research his alibi in Nepal and check out his previous home in Deer Park, Washington. As for the side-by-side comparison below, that speaks for itself.

The eye color thing, I addressed that previously, they're not certain of the color...hence "possibly brown."

Remember, I'm also speaking of very damning evidence, (i.e., he knew how the dummy reserve was packed, opened a confidential numbered bank account in Singapore in 1971, owned cufflinks that go with the Cooper tie clip set, etc.).

Finally, regarding Ben's Deli, I will take you up on your offer. When I'm in NY I'll reach out.

EU, I saw your video where you didn't stop walking the whole time and got a little winded there a couple of times.  How'd you keep your camera so steady?  And why didn't you stop walking?  All action there, that spices things up a bit around here.

I learned about SP from Bob Sailshaw -- my good friend.  Bob and I talked a lot about the DBC case and, in particular, Sheridan Peterson.  Bob and I met on several occasions -- Bob invited me for lunch at the Seattle Yacht Club a couple of times, and he gave me a couple of DBC DVD tapes -- that I will always cherish because Bob has since passed on.   Bob and I talked a lot about SP on our trip to Tina Bar.  I don't think you have brought any new information to the table about Petey, other than you are going out on a limb and naming SP as the guy.  Maybe we needed someone else to take the baton that Bob Sailshaw passed on; apparently that someone is you. 

So many folks over the years, in particular, Jo Weber and RMB, have singled out their favorite suspects and have ignored all evidence and information to the contrary.  Their tunnel vision has caused them to ignore any other possibilities. 

Sailshaw was trying to destroy SP's alibi about being in Nepal on 11/24/71.  I believe he felt he had poked a hole or two in that alibi -- last time I talked with Bob.   

MeyerLouie
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 15, 2018, 10:13:16 AM
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Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.

I agree. To the best of my knowledge there are only two people alive who firmly believe Sheridan was DB Cooper--me and Sheridan.

Also, Bruce, count me in the next time you grab a pastrami sandwich at Ben's Deli.

Are you serious?  You didn't know of Bob Sailshaw ?   Sailshaw, may he rest in peace, went to his grave insisting that Sheridan was Cooper.... he posted here for a long time.  And I will tell you the same things I said to him....

Peterson may have had the skills and attributes of someone who could pull off the heist... but there are hundreds more just like him....   but there are several things that void him as Cooper... read all of the 302s, all the eyewitness descriptions that tended to slant to latin, Mexican-American, jet black hair, marcelled, olive skin..etc…. Peterson is no black-Irishman from Mahon ...there is NO mistaking Peterson for any southern European....he is as white as it gets, eyes and all.  If you are gonna say "well, makeup putty!  brown lenses ! etc"  there is no way say Tina would not have picked up on that after five hours.. None....    then you have her not identifying him in the zillion photos shown to her after the caper... same with Mitchell.
And I think his personality might be on the wrong side of the fence. .I'd expect Cooper to be unassuming, not a loud hotshot skydiver, which most of them tend to be.  Nonetheless, I hope you are right here.  I want this darn thing solved.

And btw, its me who goes to Bens Deli and got Bruce to go.  Consider yourself invited. Then we can have a dual monologue !!!!!!   hahahaha

The swarthy thing is overstated. I've read the 302s and it's not as if anyone said he was super dark or almost black. He had a little bit of color. Sheridan had been living at the base of the Himalayas for 15 months preceding the skyjacking. So the guy caught some sun...had a tan.

Actually, we don't know whether Tina, Bill or anyone else ever saw Sheridan's picture. In fact, as of May 15, 1972--six months after the skyjacking--they hadn't seen his picture. Regardless, whatever happened, if anything, didn't stop the FBI from paying him a visit 31 years later to grab some DNA, question him, research his alibi in Nepal and check out his previous home in Deer Park, Washington. As for the side-by-side comparison below, that speaks for itself.

The eye color thing, I addressed that previously, they're not certain of the color...hence "possibly brown."

Remember, I'm also speaking of very damning evidence, (i.e., he knew how the dummy reserve was packed, opened a confidential numbered bank account in Singapore in 1971, owned cufflinks that go with the Cooper tie clip set, etc.).

Finally, regarding Ben's Deli, I will take you up on your offer. When I'm in NY I'll reach out.

EU, I saw your video where you didn't stop walking the whole time and got a little winded there a couple of times.  How'd you keep your camera so steady?  And why didn't you stop walking?  All action there, that spices things up a bit around here.

I learned about SP from Bob Sailshaw -- my good friend.  Bob and I talked a lot about the DBC case and, in particular, Sheridan Peterson.  Bob and I met on several occasions -- Bob invited me for lunch at the Seattle Yacht Club a couple of times, and he gave me a couple of DBC DVD tapes -- that I will always cherish because Bob has since passed on.   Bob and I talked a lot about SP on our trip to Tina Bar.  I don't think you have brought any new information to the table about Petey, other than you are going out on a limb and naming SP as the guy.  Maybe we needed someone else to take the baton that Bob Sailshaw passed on; apparently that someone is you. 

So many folks over the years, in particular, Jo Weber and RMB, have singled out their favorite suspects and have ignored all evidence and information to the contrary.  Their tunnel vision has caused them to ignore any other possibilities. 

Sailshaw was trying to destroy SP's alibi about being in Nepal on 11/24/71.  I believe he felt he had poked a hole or two in that alibi -- last time I talked with Bob.   

MeyerLouie

I know who Bob was, but never got the chance to speak with him.

I have talked about Bob with several people, including Sheridan who, needless to say, detested him. All of these conversations have provided some insight into the mind of Sheridan Peterson.

You mentioned that I have brought nothing new to the table about Sheridan Peterson. I disagree. An example of five specific items follows:

1) The revelation about Sheridan's numbered bank account in Singapore (which also destroys his Nepal alibi).
2) The revelation about Sheridan's cufflinks that match Cooper's tie clip.
3) The revelation about Sheridan discussing the dummy reserve being daisy-chained, which he couldn't possibly have know without him actually opening the  chute, thereby putting him on the jet.
4) The revelation (public) about Sheridan's DNA not clearing him as was the case with both Duane and LD.
5) The revelation about Sheridan's money practices which explains where all or most of the money went.

Moreover , in the report I discuss a lot of other information that specifically relates to the money find, drop zone (planned and ultimate), his tie, etc.

I want to be very clear about one thing. I have exhaustively looked into everything, pro and con, about Sheridan as a suspect. I have actually tried to prove that Sheridan wasn't DB Cooper--but could not.

I have tackled every issue whether it be his DNA, eye color, alibi, whatever. Unlike others, I have explained how all of the evidence fits with Sheridan--the 727 knowledge, parachuting knowledge, tie particles, DNA, alibi,etc.) I am not in the business of going down rabbit holes, focusing on those items that fit and conveniently ignoring those that don't.

In fact, I actually disproved what Bob said about Sheridan speaking with him about the airstairs--neither the 727 or 737 had even flown by 1962. This was the result of me vetting everything related to Sheridan even if it supported the notion of Sheridan as DB Cooper.

In closing, I believe Sheridan is likely DB Cooper (99%) based upon the evidence. To be sure, I have not found anything that exonerates the man--be it DNA, eye color, appearance, knowledge, personality, alibi, etc.). That said, if someone knows something that I don't I'd like to hear about it.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 15, 2018, 04:36:06 PM
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Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.

Let me critique my own analysis! I think 77 and EU and others, know Pete's lifetime personality a lot better than I do which is to say my judgement about his personality is marginal at best. I think 77 as much as said at one time that he 'could not see Petey building a bomb, taking people hostage, and hijacking a plan' ? Did 377 say that? That is sort of how I see Peterson based on everything Ive absorbed in these forums over the years. In addition I thought I learned that 'money' was not that important to Peterson vs other social values and concerns. Peterson had strong social values and went to Tibet to get away from the 'military industrial complex' world. I dont see that slate of values in DB Cooper.

Remember, I sent my friend Lt Col C.A. to check at the hospital where Petey apparently worked and had his wife for child birth in Tibet. CA and his wife were doing relief work in Tibet after an earthquake. Nobody in that area could quite remember Petey. I reported that result at DZ years ago.  [BTW C.A. died near Annapolis MD last Sunday. Lifelong friend of mine since birth. He will be sorely missed. It was C.A. who had met and talked to the SR71 pilot also - pure coincidence in his life.]

Maybe my assessment of SP's life trajectory/personality doesn't hold up to scrutiny?

I'll give you my honest assessment of Sheridan, with whom I've talked, texted, and emailed many times.

First, I arrived at Sheridan as DB Cooper after nailing down the facts in the case, creating a profile of Cooper, then reviewing FBI suspects because I thought it was likely that the FBI had already come across the "Real DB Cooper" during their investigation but couldn't nail him with the evidence. I did not have a horse in this race until the end.

Second, Sheridan is accurately described as an angry man who feels he has been underappreciated through out his life. That said, he has always had a personality problem. Case in point: It was the well-liked and respected Linn Emrich who brought Sheridan to the FBI's attention within a week of the skyjacking. Remarkably, this was six years after the last time Linn had seen Sheridan in 1965. In fact, in a The Issaquah Press article on December 1, 1971, Linn stated that he and his wife think they know who Cooper is and that "if he is the fellow I think he is, I hope he gets caught."

My point is, it seems that a lot of the people Sheridan has met in life end up having a problem with the man (brother, wives, children, landlords, neighbors, acquaintances, guy at the store, etc.) He has also been very rude to me many times.

I told a friend of Sheridan's recently that Sheridan can go around and profess to care about people and portray himself as a peacenik all he wants, but it doesn't resonate when he treats everyone like shit. Actions really do speak louder than words.

Sheridan is a well-read, well-traveled and smart person, but he seems to be missing something very basic, and that is personal accountability. It is always someone else's fault in his eyes.

Sheridan not only had the know-how and opportunity to skyjack 305, he also had the mindset and personality.

Good summation. Good description of a lot of 'peaceniks' from that era, especially those that slipped off and dropped out. Escaping was a personal strategy for some, avoiding "personal responsibility". Blaming others.  I think it may be precisely Sheridan's lack of "personal accountability" that keeps him from doing an actual hijacking. "It is always someone else's fault in his eyes." - that would keep him from stepping up and building a bomb and hijacking a plane! Those are tangible acts for which one can be held personally accountable! Better to slip out the back door angry and head off to Nepal, Tibet, a shack in Montana or Oregon, write speeches and books for the SDS and the Friends Service Committee ... we dealt with a lot of these people in the 60's and it was fairly easy to separate those who would step up and build a bomb, from those who would slip off to Canada, those who would burn their bridges or not - those would step up and take personal responsibility from those who would demur and hide for a while. The people willing to step up and take personal responsibility were the one's I feared most.

I can believe everything you are saying about the real Sheridan and its for those same reasons I dont see him stepping up and placing himself in a position where he would have to take personal responsibility - better to slip off to Nepal or somewhere where he can surface later untouched with his anger and his cause in tact! People in jails dont have access to the media! Freedom seems to be important to Sheridan.       
   
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 15, 2018, 05:12:03 PM
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... Also, Bruce, count me in the next time you grab a pastrami sandwich at Ben's Deli....


Happy to count you in, but you're gonna need more than just a pastrami sandwich, my friend, after arriving from AZ. Iced tea, perhaps? 10 gallons, I figure....
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 15, 2018, 05:19:15 PM
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Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.

Let me critique my own analysis! I think 77 and EU and others, know Pete's lifetime personality a lot better than I do which is to say my judgement about his personality is marginal at best. I think 77 as much as said at one time that he 'could not see Petey building a bomb, taking people hostage, and hijacking a plan' ? Did 377 say that? That is sort of how I see Peterson based on everything Ive absorbed in these forums over the years. In addition I thought I learned that 'money' was not that important to Peterson vs other social values and concerns. Peterson had strong social values and went to Tibet to get away from the 'military industrial complex' world. I dont see that slate of values in DB Cooper.

Remember, I sent my friend Lt Col C.A. to check at the hospital where Petey apparently worked and had his wife for child birth in Tibet. CA and his wife were doing relief work in Tibet after an earthquake. Nobody in that area could quite remember Petey. I reported that result at DZ years ago.  [BTW C.A. died near Annapolis MD last Sunday. Lifelong friend of mine since birth. He will be sorely missed. It was C.A. who had met and talked to the SR71 pilot also - pure coincidence in his life.]

Maybe my assessment of SP's life trajectory/personality doesn't hold up to scrutiny?

I'll give you my honest assessment of Sheridan, with whom I've talked, texted, and emailed many times.

First, I arrived at Sheridan as DB Cooper after nailing down the facts in the case, creating a profile of Cooper, then reviewing FBI suspects because I thought it was likely that the FBI had already come across the "Real DB Cooper" during their investigation but couldn't nail him with the evidence. I did not have a horse in this race until the end.

Second, Sheridan is accurately described as an angry man who feels he has been underappreciated through out his life. That said, he has always had a personality problem. Case in point: It was the well-liked and respected Linn Emrich who brought Sheridan to the FBI's attention within a week of the skyjacking. Remarkably, this was six years after the last time Linn had seen Sheridan in 1965. In fact, in a The Issaquah Press article on December 1, 1971, Linn stated that he and his wife think they know who Cooper is and that "if he is the fellow I think he is, I hope he gets caught."

My point is, it seems that a lot of the people Sheridan has met in life end up having a problem with the man (brother, wives, children, landlords, neighbors, acquaintances, guy at the store, etc.) He has also been very rude to me many times.

I told a friend of Sheridan's recently that Sheridan can go around and profess to care about people and portray himself as a peacenik all he wants, but it doesn't resonate when he treats everyone like shit. Actions really do speak louder than words.

Sheridan is a well-read, well-traveled and smart person, but he seems to be missing something very basic, and that is personal accountability. It is always someone else's fault in his eyes.

Sheridan not only had the know-how and opportunity to skyjack 305, he also had the mindset and personality.

Good summation. Good description of a lot of 'peaceniks' from that era, especially those that slipped off and dropped out. Escaping was a personal strategy for some, avoiding "personal responsibility". Blaming others.  I think it may be precisely Sheridan's lack of "personal accountability" that keeps him from doing an actual hijacking. "It is always someone else's fault in his eyes." - that would keep him from stepping up and building a bomb and hijacking a plane! Those are tangible acts for which one can be held personally accountable! Better to slip out the back door angry and head off to Nepal, Tibet, a shack in Montana or Oregon, write speeches and books for the SDS and the Friends Service Committee ... we dealt with a lot of these people in the 60's and it was fairly easy to separate those who would step up and build a bomb, from those who would slip off to Canada, those who would burn their bridges or not - those would step up and take personal responsibility from those who would demur and hide for a while. The people willing to step up and take personal responsibility were the one's I feared most.

I can believe everything you are saying about the real Sheridan and its for those same reasons I dont see him stepping up and placing himself in a position where he would have to take personal responsibility - better to slip off to Nepal or somewhere where he can surface later untouched with his anger and his cause in tact! People in jails dont have access to the media! Freedom seems to be important to Sheridan.       
 

I think Petey is a lot more complex than the half-dozen stereotypes described above. He has a strange relationship with authority. He hated what the US troops were doing in Vietnam, yet, he worked for the USG there - and earlier at Clark Air Base.

Now, he wants me to bail on the USA and join him in a ex-pat commune in Nicaragua. Well, not at this exact moment since his last email to me blasted me as a stooge of the CIA....

Smart, yes. Savvy. Yup. But clearly unstable. Angry? You bet. Violent? Maybe. Cooper? I don't know. Could be.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 15, 2018, 11:10:56 PM
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... Also, Bruce, count me in the next time you grab a pastrami sandwich at Ben's Deli....


Happy to count you in, but you're gonna need more than just a pastrami sandwich, my friend, after arriving from AZ. Iced tea, perhaps? 10 gallons, I figure....

Forget the iced tea, I'm in for an IPA.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: dice on July 15, 2018, 11:22:56 PM
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Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.

Let me critique my own analysis! I think 77 and EU and others, know Pete's lifetime personality a lot better than I do which is to say my judgement about his personality is marginal at best. I think 77 as much as said at one time that he 'could not see Petey building a bomb, taking people hostage, and hijacking a plan' ? Did 377 say that? That is sort of how I see Peterson based on everything Ive absorbed in these forums over the years. In addition I thought I learned that 'money' was not that important to Peterson vs other social values and concerns. Peterson had strong social values and went to Tibet to get away from the 'military industrial complex' world. I dont see that slate of values in DB Cooper.

Remember, I sent my friend Lt Col C.A. to check at the hospital where Petey apparently worked and had his wife for child birth in Tibet. CA and his wife were doing relief work in Tibet after an earthquake. Nobody in that area could quite remember Petey. I reported that result at DZ years ago.  [BTW C.A. died near Annapolis MD last Sunday. Lifelong friend of mine since birth. He will be sorely missed. It was C.A. who had met and talked to the SR71 pilot also - pure coincidence in his life.]

Maybe my assessment of SP's life trajectory/personality doesn't hold up to scrutiny?

I'll give you my honest assessment of Sheridan, with whom I've talked, texted, and emailed many times.

First, I arrived at Sheridan as DB Cooper after nailing down the facts in the case, creating a profile of Cooper, then reviewing FBI suspects because I thought it was likely that the FBI had already come across the "Real DB Cooper" during their investigation but couldn't nail him with the evidence. I did not have a horse in this race until the end.

Second, Sheridan is accurately described as an angry man who feels he has been underappreciated through out his life. That said, he has always had a personality problem. Case in point: It was the well-liked and respected Linn Emrich who brought Sheridan to the FBI's attention within a week of the skyjacking. Remarkably, this was six years after the last time Linn had seen Sheridan in 1965. In fact, in a The Issaquah Press article on December 1, 1971, Linn stated that he and his wife think they know who Cooper is and that "if he is the fellow I think he is, I hope he gets caught."

My point is, it seems that a lot of the people Sheridan has met in life end up having a problem with the man (brother, wives, children, landlords, neighbors, acquaintances, guy at the store, etc.) He has also been very rude to me many times.

I told a friend of Sheridan's recently that Sheridan can go around and profess to care about people and portray himself as a peacenik all he wants, but it doesn't resonate when he treats everyone like shit. Actions really do speak louder than words.

Sheridan is a well-read, well-traveled and smart person, but he seems to be missing something very basic, and that is personal accountability. It is always someone else's fault in his eyes.

Sheridan not only had the know-how and opportunity to skyjack 305, he also had the mindset and personality.

Good summation. Good description of a lot of 'peaceniks' from that era, especially those that slipped off and dropped out. Escaping was a personal strategy for some, avoiding "personal responsibility". Blaming others.  I think it may be precisely Sheridan's lack of "personal accountability" that keeps him from doing an actual hijacking. "It is always someone else's fault in his eyes." - that would keep him from stepping up and building a bomb and hijacking a plane! Those are tangible acts for which one can be held personally accountable! Better to slip out the back door angry and head off to Nepal, Tibet, a shack in Montana or Oregon, write speeches and books for the SDS and the Friends Service Committee ... we dealt with a lot of these people in the 60's and it was fairly easy to separate those who would step up and build a bomb, from those who would slip off to Canada, those who would burn their bridges or not - those would step up and take personal responsibility from those who would demur and hide for a while. The people willing to step up and take personal responsibility were the one's I feared most.

I can believe everything you are saying about the real Sheridan and its for those same reasons I dont see him stepping up and placing himself in a position where he would have to take personal responsibility - better to slip off to Nepal or somewhere where he can surface later untouched with his anger and his cause in tact! People in jails dont have access to the media! Freedom seems to be important to Sheridan.       
 

This insight nailed it..... I could not have said it better... 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: dice on July 15, 2018, 11:38:57 PM
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Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.

I agree. To the best of my knowledge there are only two people alive who firmly believe Sheridan was DB Cooper--me and Sheridan.

Also, Bruce, count me in the next time you grab a pastrami sandwich at Ben's Deli.

Are you serious?  You didn't know of Bob Sailshaw ?   Sailshaw, may he rest in peace, went to his grave insisting that Sheridan was Cooper.... he posted here for a long time.  And I will tell you the same things I said to him....

Peterson may have had the skills and attributes of someone who could pull off the heist... but there are hundreds more just like him....   but there are several things that void him as Cooper... read all of the 302s, all the eyewitness descriptions that tended to slant to latin, Mexican-American, jet black hair, marcelled, olive skin..etc…. Peterson is no black-Irishman from Mahon ...there is NO mistaking Peterson for any southern European....he is as white as it gets, eyes and all.  If you are gonna say "well, makeup putty!  brown lenses ! etc"  there is no way say Tina would not have picked up on that after five hours.. None....    then you have her not identifying him in the zillion photos shown to her after the caper... same with Mitchell.
And I think his personality might be on the wrong side of the fence. .I'd expect Cooper to be unassuming, not a loud hotshot skydiver, which most of them tend to be.  Nonetheless, I hope you are right here.  I want this darn thing solved.

And btw, its me who goes to Bens Deli and got Bruce to go.  Consider yourself invited. Then we can have a dual monologue !!!!!!   hahahaha

Dice, can you expand on your analysis of Cooper just based on the "facts" as they are presented in the interviews of the flight attendants and the others that came in contact with him on the date of the hijacking.

I happen to be going through some books on criminal profiling and would be interested in the "thoughts" (not wild-eyed speculations) that anyone has on Cooper's psychological makeup.  And please cite specific reasons for your comments.

While I have spent a substantial amount of time in the NYC area, I have never heard of Ben's Deli.  My recommendation is a sandwich shop in Tucson.

to Robert....   please just read each 302 on each witness...  I don't know how to break the files out and post them here....  here is one link...https://true.ink/story/d-b-cooper-fbi-files-released/    read the 77 pages in there are a lot of them...  there are other links to 302s I have to locate.

read spreckel, labonseinserre, Gregory, Mitchell, etc..all of them...  time and time again you see mex-american, dark complexion, jet black hair, olive...etc...  no way someone confuses an overly tan Irishman, and gives those descriptions....  Peterson would have freckles and peeling skin, nothing olive.

Re  pastrami... I am a big pastrami buff... the reference is to Ben's in Carle Place, Long Island, which is passable.  There actually have another location in midtown in the diamond district called Bens.
HOWEVER....The best in the entire five boroughs is called BEN's BEST on Queens Blvd in Rego Park, Queens.....not to be confused or associated with other Bens.
 the top pastrami in Manhattan used to be the Stage Deli (closed), then Carnegie (closed), maybe 2nd Ave deli, the Ben's in diamond district,next...and Katz Deli on lower east side (in that harry sally film) is dead last... the latter only has the history, but crappy tiny sandwiches....    Bens Best in Rego Park, on Queens Blvd, oddly enough is the best, by far..... Lido Deli by me, near Long Beach, is decent, and makes up for any pastrami shortcoming with their excellent beef tongue.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 16, 2018, 04:20:40 AM
I vote for Pastrami King in Merrick, but I will travel to the city for the 2nd Ave Deli (I just saw it in Seinfeld's "Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee"), or any location you suggest. Ben's in Carle Place is only the best place that is close to mom. Lido Deli is also top-notch. And it is my mom's favorite. Tongue? Yougottabekiddinme! But my ex loves it, though.

Dovid is out in Jersey, too. DOVID! You want in on this???
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: MeyerLouie on July 16, 2018, 05:07:16 AM
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Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.

I agree. To the best of my knowledge there are only two people alive who firmly believe Sheridan was DB Cooper--me and Sheridan.

Also, Bruce, count me in the next time you grab a pastrami sandwich at Ben's Deli.

Are you serious?  You didn't know of Bob Sailshaw ?   Sailshaw, may he rest in peace, went to his grave insisting that Sheridan was Cooper.... he posted here for a long time.  And I will tell you the same things I said to him....

Peterson may have had the skills and attributes of someone who could pull off the heist... but there are hundreds more just like him....   but there are several things that void him as Cooper... read all of the 302s, all the eyewitness descriptions that tended to slant to latin, Mexican-American, jet black hair, marcelled, olive skin..etc…. Peterson is no black-Irishman from Mahon ...there is NO mistaking Peterson for any southern European....he is as white as it gets, eyes and all.  If you are gonna say "well, makeup putty!  brown lenses ! etc"  there is no way say Tina would not have picked up on that after five hours.. None....    then you have her not identifying him in the zillion photos shown to her after the caper... same with Mitchell.
And I think his personality might be on the wrong side of the fence. .I'd expect Cooper to be unassuming, not a loud hotshot skydiver, which most of them tend to be.  Nonetheless, I hope you are right here.  I want this darn thing solved.

And btw, its me who goes to Bens Deli and got Bruce to go.  Consider yourself invited. Then we can have a dual monologue !!!!!!   hahahaha

The swarthy thing is overstated. I've read the 302s and it's not as if anyone said he was super dark or almost black. He had a little bit of color. Sheridan had been living at the base of the Himalayas for 15 months preceding the skyjacking. So the guy caught some sun...had a tan.

Actually, we don't know whether Tina, Bill or anyone else ever saw Sheridan's picture. In fact, as of May 15, 1972--six months after the skyjacking--they hadn't seen his picture. Regardless, whatever happened, if anything, didn't stop the FBI from paying him a visit 31 years later to grab some DNA, question him, research his alibi in Nepal and check out his previous home in Deer Park, Washington. As for the side-by-side comparison below, that speaks for itself.

The eye color thing, I addressed that previously, they're not certain of the color...hence "possibly brown."

Remember, I'm also speaking of very damning evidence, (i.e., he knew how the dummy reserve was packed, opened a confidential numbered bank account in Singapore in 1971, owned cufflinks that go with the Cooper tie clip set, etc.).

Finally, regarding Ben's Deli, I will take you up on your offer. When I'm in NY I'll reach out.

EU, I saw your video where you didn't stop walking the whole time and got a little winded there a couple of times.  How'd you keep your camera so steady?  And why didn't you stop walking?  All action there, that spices things up a bit around here.

I learned about SP from Bob Sailshaw -- my good friend.  Bob and I talked a lot about the DBC case and, in particular, Sheridan Peterson.  Bob and I met on several occasions -- Bob invited me for lunch at the Seattle Yacht Club a couple of times, and he gave me a couple of DBC DVD tapes -- that I will always cherish because Bob has since passed on.   Bob and I talked a lot about SP on our trip to Tina Bar.  I don't think you have brought any new information to the table about Petey, other than you are going out on a limb and naming SP as the guy.  Maybe we needed someone else to take the baton that Bob Sailshaw passed on; apparently that someone is you. 

So many folks over the years, in particular, Jo Weber and RMB, have singled out their favorite suspects and have ignored all evidence and information to the contrary.  Their tunnel vision has caused them to ignore any other possibilities. 

Sailshaw was trying to destroy SP's alibi about being in Nepal on 11/24/71.  I believe he felt he had poked a hole or two in that alibi -- last time I talked with Bob.   

MeyerLouie

I know who Bob was, but never got the chance to speak with him.

I have talked about Bob with several people, including Sheridan who, needless to say, detested him. All of these conversations have provided some insight into the mind of Sheridan Peterson.

You mentioned that I have brought nothing new to the table about Sheridan Peterson. I disagree. An example of five specific items follows:

1) The revelation about Sheridan's numbered bank account in Singapore (which also destroys his Nepal alibi).
2) The revelation about Sheridan's cufflinks that match Cooper's tie clip.
3) The revelation about Sheridan discussing the dummy reserve being daisy-chained, which he couldn't possibly have know without him actually opening the  chute, thereby putting him on the jet.
4) The revelation (public) about Sheridan's DNA not clearing him as was the case with both Duane and LD.
5) The revelation about Sheridan's money practices which explains where all or most of the money went.

Moreover , in the report I discuss a lot of other information that specifically relates to the money find, drop zone (planned and ultimate), his tie, etc.

I want to be very clear about one thing. I have exhaustively looked into everything, pro and con, about Sheridan as a suspect. I have actually tried to prove that Sheridan wasn't DB Cooper--but could not.

I have tackled every issue whether it be his DNA, eye color, alibi, whatever. Unlike others, I have explained how all of the evidence fits with Sheridan--the 727 knowledge, parachuting knowledge, tie particles, DNA, alibi,etc.) I am not in the business of going down rabbit holes, focusing on those items that fit and conveniently ignoring those that don't.

In fact, I actually disproved what Bob said about Sheridan speaking with him about the airstairs--neither the 727 or 737 had even flown by 1962. This was the result of me vetting everything related to Sheridan even if it supported the notion of Sheridan as DB Cooper.

In closing, I believe Sheridan is likely DB Cooper (99%) based upon the evidence. To be sure, I have not found anything that exonerates the man--be it DNA, eye color, appearance, knowledge, personality, alibi, etc.). That said, if someone knows something that I don't I'd like to hear about it.


Evidence, EU?  All circumstantial, and like all the others who have their pet suspects, you provide no proof. 

Sheridan detested Sailshaw?  Most likely, but Sail helped SP get a job and he provided a place for him to live -- and SP skipped out without paying any rent.  If anyone had a right to detest someone, it was Sail, but Sail was a good, decent, kind person.  That wasn't his nature.  Sounds like SP is one despicable guy -- for this and other reasons discussed here. 

Let me rephrase, you have brought new information, but I don't find it all that impressive.  What, SP couldn't have a bank account in Singapore and be in Nepal at the same time.  I have bank accounts in the USA and Canada, don't have a problem there.  Cufflinks matching the tie clip?  Could be a mere coincidence.  He has to be on the plane to be able to open a parachute?  Nonsense.  SP's DNA not clearing him?  After what we have observed regarding the actions of the FBI, that revelation doesn't necessarily mean anything.  Again, purely circumstantial, it may mean nothing.  Sheridan's money practices explains where the loot went?  Really?  SP's money practices explains nothing!  Mere conjecture.

I get real nervous about someone who uses "etc" at least twice.  I never allowed my students to ever use "etc" when they turned in writing assignments.  I insisted they should always explain what "etc" is, elaborate, explain fully.  "Etc" is a total cop out.

You are certainly not the first one to say Sheridan fits the profile about as good as anybody, but there are problems with him as a suspect -- which have been discussed fully here and at the DZ.

Too bad you and Sailshaw didn't meet.  You both like the same suspect and you both have different takes on why you think so.  It's all good.

Meyer
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: dice on July 16, 2018, 05:18:27 AM
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I vote for Pastrami King in Merrick, but I will travel to the city for the 2nd Ave Deli (I just saw it in Seinfeld's "Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee"), or any location you suggest. Ben's in Carle Place is only the best place that is close to mom. Lido Deli is also top-notch. And it is my mom's favorite. Tongue? Yougottabekiddinme! But my ex loves it, though.

Dovid is out in Jersey, too. DOVID! You want in on this???

Yah, you mentioned Pastrami King in Merrick before... It is actually the closest one to me if you don't include Woodro on N. Broadway in Hewlett.   I went once to Pastrami King, thought it was as poor a value as Katz... If that's your favorite then it could be due to nostalgia growing up here, as I am not privy to that.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Shutter on July 16, 2018, 06:17:06 AM
Quote
to Robert....   please just read each 302 on each witness...  I don't know how to break the files out and post them here....  here is one link...https://true.ink/story/d-b-cooper-fbi-files-released/    read the 77 pages in there are a lot of them...  there are other links to 302s I have to locate.


EU, have you been to our vault?

http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Cooper-Vault/
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 16, 2018, 10:31:57 AM
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Quote
to Robert....   please just read each 302 on each witness...  I don't know how to break the files out and post them here....  here is one link...https://true.ink/story/d-b-cooper-fbi-files-released/    read the 77 pages in there are a lot of them...  there are other links to 302s I have to locate.


EU, have you been to our vault?

http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Cooper-Vault/

I didn't realize your site has a vault too. I just looked through it and recognize that these are 302s also on the FBI vault site. I have reviewed all of the 10,000 or so pages that have been released so far.

Your vault is easy to use which is nice.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 16, 2018, 11:07:47 AM
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Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.

I agree. To the best of my knowledge there are only two people alive who firmly believe Sheridan was DB Cooper--me and Sheridan.

Also, Bruce, count me in the next time you grab a pastrami sandwich at Ben's Deli.

Are you serious?  You didn't know of Bob Sailshaw ?   Sailshaw, may he rest in peace, went to his grave insisting that Sheridan was Cooper.... he posted here for a long time.  And I will tell you the same things I said to him....

Peterson may have had the skills and attributes of someone who could pull off the heist... but there are hundreds more just like him....   but there are several things that void him as Cooper... read all of the 302s, all the eyewitness descriptions that tended to slant to latin, Mexican-American, jet black hair, marcelled, olive skin..etc…. Peterson is no black-Irishman from Mahon ...there is NO mistaking Peterson for any southern European....he is as white as it gets, eyes and all.  If you are gonna say "well, makeup putty!  brown lenses ! etc"  there is no way say Tina would not have picked up on that after five hours.. None....    then you have her not identifying him in the zillion photos shown to her after the caper... same with Mitchell.
And I think his personality might be on the wrong side of the fence. .I'd expect Cooper to be unassuming, not a loud hotshot skydiver, which most of them tend to be.  Nonetheless, I hope you are right here.  I want this darn thing solved.

And btw, its me who goes to Bens Deli and got Bruce to go.  Consider yourself invited. Then we can have a dual monologue !!!!!!   hahahaha

The swarthy thing is overstated. I've read the 302s and it's not as if anyone said he was super dark or almost black. He had a little bit of color. Sheridan had been living at the base of the Himalayas for 15 months preceding the skyjacking. So the guy caught some sun...had a tan.

Actually, we don't know whether Tina, Bill or anyone else ever saw Sheridan's picture. In fact, as of May 15, 1972--six months after the skyjacking--they hadn't seen his picture. Regardless, whatever happened, if anything, didn't stop the FBI from paying him a visit 31 years later to grab some DNA, question him, research his alibi in Nepal and check out his previous home in Deer Park, Washington. As for the side-by-side comparison below, that speaks for itself.

The eye color thing, I addressed that previously, they're not certain of the color...hence "possibly brown."

Remember, I'm also speaking of very damning evidence, (i.e., he knew how the dummy reserve was packed, opened a confidential numbered bank account in Singapore in 1971, owned cufflinks that go with the Cooper tie clip set, etc.).

Finally, regarding Ben's Deli, I will take you up on your offer. When I'm in NY I'll reach out.

EU, I saw your video where you didn't stop walking the whole time and got a little winded there a couple of times.  How'd you keep your camera so steady?  And why didn't you stop walking?  All action there, that spices things up a bit around here.

I learned about SP from Bob Sailshaw -- my good friend.  Bob and I talked a lot about the DBC case and, in particular, Sheridan Peterson.  Bob and I met on several occasions -- Bob invited me for lunch at the Seattle Yacht Club a couple of times, and he gave me a couple of DBC DVD tapes -- that I will always cherish because Bob has since passed on.   Bob and I talked a lot about SP on our trip to Tina Bar.  I don't think you have brought any new information to the table about Petey, other than you are going out on a limb and naming SP as the guy.  Maybe we needed someone else to take the baton that Bob Sailshaw passed on; apparently that someone is you. 

So many folks over the years, in particular, Jo Weber and RMB, have singled out their favorite suspects and have ignored all evidence and information to the contrary.  Their tunnel vision has caused them to ignore any other possibilities. 

Sailshaw was trying to destroy SP's alibi about being in Nepal on 11/24/71.  I believe he felt he had poked a hole or two in that alibi -- last time I talked with Bob.   

MeyerLouie

I know who Bob was, but never got the chance to speak with him.

I have talked about Bob with several people, including Sheridan who, needless to say, detested him. All of these conversations have provided some insight into the mind of Sheridan Peterson.

You mentioned that I have brought nothing new to the table about Sheridan Peterson. I disagree. An example of five specific items follows:

1) The revelation about Sheridan's numbered bank account in Singapore (which also destroys his Nepal alibi).
2) The revelation about Sheridan's cufflinks that match Cooper's tie clip.
3) The revelation about Sheridan discussing the dummy reserve being daisy-chained, which he couldn't possibly have know without him actually opening the  chute, thereby putting him on the jet.
4) The revelation (public) about Sheridan's DNA not clearing him as was the case with both Duane and LD.
5) The revelation about Sheridan's money practices which explains where all or most of the money went.

Moreover , in the report I discuss a lot of other information that specifically relates to the money find, drop zone (planned and ultimate), his tie, etc.

I want to be very clear about one thing. I have exhaustively looked into everything, pro and con, about Sheridan as a suspect. I have actually tried to prove that Sheridan wasn't DB Cooper--but could not.

I have tackled every issue whether it be his DNA, eye color, alibi, whatever. Unlike others, I have explained how all of the evidence fits with Sheridan--the 727 knowledge, parachuting knowledge, tie particles, DNA, alibi,etc.) I am not in the business of going down rabbit holes, focusing on those items that fit and conveniently ignoring those that don't.

In fact, I actually disproved what Bob said about Sheridan speaking with him about the airstairs--neither the 727 or 737 had even flown by 1962. This was the result of me vetting everything related to Sheridan even if it supported the notion of Sheridan as DB Cooper.

In closing, I believe Sheridan is likely DB Cooper (99%) based upon the evidence. To be sure, I have not found anything that exonerates the man--be it DNA, eye color, appearance, knowledge, personality, alibi, etc.). That said, if someone knows something that I don't I'd like to hear about it.


Evidence, EU?  All circumstantial, and like all the others who have their pet suspects, you provide no proof. 

Sheridan detested Sailshaw?  Most likely, but Sail helped SP get a job and he provided a place for him to live -- and SP skipped out without paying any rent.  If anyone had a right to detest someone, it was Sail, but Sail was a good, decent, kind person.  That wasn't his nature.  Sounds like SP is one despicable guy -- for this and other reasons discussed here. 

Let me rephrase, you have brought new information, but I don't find it all that impressive.  What, SP couldn't have a bank account in Singapore and be in Nepal at the same time.  I have bank accounts in the USA and Canada, don't have a problem there.  Cufflinks matching the tie clip?  Could be a mere coincidence.  He has to be on the plane to be able to open a parachute?  Nonsense.  SP's DNA not clearing him?  After what we have observed regarding the actions of the FBI, that revelation doesn't necessarily mean anything.  Again, purely circumstantial, it may mean nothing.  Sheridan's money practices explains where the loot went?  Really?  SP's money practices explains nothing!  Mere conjecture.

I get real nervous about someone who uses "etc" at least twice.  I never allowed my students to ever use "etc" when they turned in writing assignments.  I insisted they should always explain what "etc" is, elaborate, explain fully.  "Etc" is a total cop out.

You are certainly not the first one to say Sheridan fits the profile about as good as anybody, but there are problems with him as a suspect -- which have been discussed fully here and at the DZ.

Too bad you and Sailshaw didn't meet.  You both like the same suspect and you both have different takes on why you think so.  It's all good.

Meyer

Wow. Where to start?

Etc. is used so I don't end up writing a book while answering a question. Do not misinterpret its use as mere filler, fluff, or a "cop out."

I am not referring to a garden variety bank account, I'm talking about a confidential numbered bank account. These are very different animals and highly suspect. In the words of FBI Special Agent Fryar, "the only reason to have a numbered account is to hide something."

The parachute is not "non-sense." This is very important. Let me explain.

Sheridan discussed the survivability of Cooper's jump during one of his interviews with the FBI. He said that Cooper didn't survive because Cooper didn't know what he was doing. To support this claim Sheridan mentioned that Cooper selected the "dummy reserve" versus the "genuine reserve." This is ridiculous because neither of the reserves could be attached to either main because none had "D" rings. Moreover, as Sheridan was discussing the dummy reserve selection he explained that it was "daisy-chained" inside, therefore, inoperable.

FACT, there is no possible way that Sheridan could have known that the dummy reserve was daisy-chained unless he actually opened the dummy reserve and looked in himself. After all, daisy-chaining a reserve is not a common practice. On the other hand, removing shroud lines and "flaking" the canopy is.

In addition, the FBI publicly clearing Weber and LD by virtue of their DNA, but refusing to clear, or even discuss, Sheridan's DNA results is highly suspect. Also, Larry Carr (NORJAK lead agent at the time) befriending Sheridan and buying his book incognito six years after Sheridan's DNA was taken is also highly suspect. You don't agree?

Finally, circumstantial evidence is all there is at this point in time--unless, of course, we find a Cooper twenty dollar bill. It's been nearly 50 years. I'm amazed at how often I read the words "circumstantial evidence" used in a derogatory sense. Good luck solving anything if you are unwilling to consider circumstantial evidence.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Kermit on July 16, 2018, 12:45:52 PM
EU,
So you’re 99% certain that Sheridan is Cooper based on the circumstantial evidence you have provided ?
I’m on the other side of the opinion since it’s really just an opinion. I just don’t see anything solid that I find convincing! I think there are literally hundreds of thousands of individuals who could have made the jump as i see little proof that Cooper was an expert or a relatively casual parachutist. Opinions run in both directions.
No offense meant but I’ve got him at perhaps 2% !
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: sry828 on July 16, 2018, 01:09:02 PM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Are you thinking the chest pack would be large enough to pack most of the ransom, or are you thinking it would be way too small?  The reason that I ask is, if it was way too small, I would think that Cooper would have either demanded something else, or cut up one of the extra reserves to make another money bag.  If it was a smaller amount though, maybe he would have opted for a quicker / less reliable solution.  If so, could that be the explanation for the 3 bundles at Tina Bar?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on July 16, 2018, 01:42:50 PM
Georger wrote: "Good summation. Good description of a lot of 'peaceniks' from that era, especially those that slipped off and dropped out. Escaping was a personal strategy for some, avoiding "personal responsibility". Blaming others.  I think it may be precisely Sheridan's lack of "personal accountability" that keeps him from doing an actual hijacking. "It is always someone else's fault in his eyes." - that would keep him from stepping up and building a bomb and hijacking a plane! Those are tangible acts for which one can be held personally accountable! Better to slip out the back door angry and head off to Nepal, Tibet, a shack in Montana or Oregon, write speeches and books for the SDS and the Friends Service Committee ... we dealt with a lot of these people in the 60's and it was fairly easy to separate those who would step up and build a bomb, from those who would slip off to Canada, those who would burn their bridges or not - those would step up and take personal responsibility from those who would demur and hide for a while. The people willing to step up and take personal responsibility were the one's I feared most.

I can believe everything you are saying about the real Sheridan and its for those same reasons I dont see him stepping up and placing himself in a position where he would have to take personal responsibility - better to slip off to Nepal or somewhere where he can surface later untouched with his anger and his cause in tact! People in jails don't have access to the media! Freedom seems to be important to Sheridan."


Well said Georger! Such an articulate and thoughtful reflection on an important aspect of the 60's, just how far some people would take their beliefs and how to spot those who would go to extremes. I was an EE student at Berkeley during those turbulent times. I personally knew two people who were arrested for bomb building. Neither was a close friend of mine, and the incidents were unrelated. Nobody was seriously injured or killed. Neither guy was a loudmouth radical. No speeches, nothing authored. Both were quiet and intense. Many of the highly vocal radical lefties who went to endless demonstrations and protests and talked a good game about taking down the man "by any means necessary", spent their evenings smoking dope and partying with impressionable gullible coeds, not building bombs or plotting violence.

To me, a key takeaway in the FBI investigation of Peterson is that the FBI was not at all certain that DBC had brown eyes. I had always thought the FBI had cleared him on DNA. Now, EU has called that into serious question. A possible DNA match to a partial sample doesn't prove Peterson is Cooper, FAR from it, but, if true, it removes an important exculpatory claim. 

I know Peterson. He is genial most of the time, but can get angry quickly. At times he has accused me of being FBI/CIA, raged at me as a cruel oppressor, but I just can't help liking him. He is very intelligent and extremely well read. A few hours with him talking politics is time well spent. He sees huge parallels between the US now and Germany just before Hitler took power. I don't agree with his extreme view, but he can advocate his viewpoint very effectively and it is always interesting. He has a deep and detailed knowledge of 20th-century political history.

I lost a twenty dollar bet to him on the last presidential election thus killing my chance of receiving a pristine Cooper twenty from him (a joke). We fight, but eventually make up and continue our spirited dialogue.

He seems to be literally fearless. Some of his parachuting exploits (e.g. experimental bat wingsuit) would scare the living hell out of me with half a century of skydiving experience, but seems to have had no similar effect on him. He isn't boasting, that's just how he is. 

Peterson has all the skills needed for the skyjacking but so did Ted Mayfield, Richard McCoy, Jack Collins, Ted Braden and others. The daisy chain reserve description is not proof he was on the plane. It could have been a guess rather than an observation.

The tie particle connection to Boeing is interesting but I am not yet convinced Yttrium would have been present in those scrap bins.

377

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on July 16, 2018, 02:04:20 PM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Are you thinking the chest pack would be large enough to pack most of the ransom, or are you thinking it would be way too small?  The reason that I ask is, if it was way too small, I would think that Cooper would have either demanded something else, or cut up one of the extra reserves to make another money bag.  If it was a smaller amount though, maybe he would have opted for a quicker / less reliable solution.  If so, could that be the explanation for the 3 bundles at Tina Bar?

Somewhere on this thread or the one at DZ, we have had lengthy posts about the possibility of some of the money being put in the missing chest pack.  These discussions also included the volume of the 10,000 $20 bills that made up the ransom, the volume of Cooper's briefcase (or attache case), the volume of the missing chest pack, and other factors along that line.  As I remember it, the "facts" indicated that the ransom money would not fit into a single chest pack or into the briefcase.

Remember that an entire chest pack is missing.  Also remember that apparently the only thing missing from the chest pack that remained on the aircraft was about 100 feet of shroud lines (according to TK's measurement).  To me, this means that Cooper did not open the missing chest pack on the aircraft and apparently tried to use it as a reserve parachute.  If he jury rigged an attachment to the missing back pack, in my opinion, that would be more dangerous than just jumping with a single back pack.  But it appears that Cooper had one chest pack with him along with the money bag when he jumped.

The 100 feet of shroud lines missing from the remaining chest pack was lengthy enough to wrap around the money bag 5 or 10 times and to tie that money bag to the back pack.  And Tina saw Cooper doing something like that.  So presumably all of the money was securely in the money bag when Cooper jumped.

The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar were either touching or with a few inches of each other.  To me, that means that they arrived at the same time and probably were still in the money bag when they first arrived at Tina Bar.  If they had come out of the money bag in the air during the jump, they probably would have landed hundreds of feet apart as a mininum.  And no one to date has been able to explain how the money fragments got to Tina Bar and at different levels in the sand.   
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on July 16, 2018, 02:10:34 PM
R99 wrote: " If he jury rigged an attachment to the missing back pack, in my opinion, that would be more dangerous than just jumping with a single back pack."

Agree. In my radio jumps we have lots of attached gear and we regard it with great care and prep. It is dangerous for sure. A snag or entanglement with a deploying main could be fatal.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: sry828 on July 16, 2018, 02:22:43 PM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Are you thinking the chest pack would be large enough to pack most of the ransom, or are you thinking it would be way too small?  The reason that I ask is, if it was way too small, I would think that Cooper would have either demanded something else, or cut up one of the extra reserves to make another money bag.  If it was a smaller amount though, maybe he would have opted for a quicker / less reliable solution.  If so, could that be the explanation for the 3 bundles at Tina Bar?

Somewhere on this thread or the one at DZ, we have had lengthy posts about the possibility of some of the money being put in the missing chest pack.  These discussions also included the volume of the 10,000 $20 bills that made up the ransom, the volume of Cooper's briefcase (or attache case), the volume of the missing chest pack, and other factors along that line.  As I remember it, the "facts" indicated that the ransom money would not fit into a single chest pack or into the briefcase.

Remember that an entire chest pack is missing.  Also remember that apparently the only thing missing from the chest pack that remained on the aircraft was about 100 feet of shroud lines (according to TK's measurement).  To me, this means that Cooper did not open the missing chest pack on the aircraft and apparently tried to use it as a reserve parachute.  If he jury rigged an attachment to the missing back pack, in my opinion, that would be more dangerous than just jumping with a single back pack.  But it appears that Cooper had one chest pack with him along with the money bag when he jumped.

The 100 feet of shroud lines missing from the remaining chest pack was lengthy enough to wrap around the money bag 5 or 10 times and to tie that money bag to the back pack.  And Tina saw Cooper doing something like that.  So presumably all of the money was securely in the money bag when Cooper jumped.

The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar were either touching or with a few inchs of each other.  To me, that means that they arrived at the same time and probably were still in the money bag when they first arrived at Tina Bar.  If they had come out of the money bag in the air during the jump, they probably would have landed hundreds of feet apart as a mininum.  And no one to date has been able to explain how the money fragments got to Tina Bar and at different levels in the sand.   

Thank you for the summary, R99.  I only found this site (and DZ) fairly recently, and haven't been able to read through nearly as much as I would like to.

I definitely agree that the bundles at Tina Bar couldn't have arrived individually.  I was thinking of Cooper using the container from the chute he cut the lines off of to hold all of the ransom, realizing it couldn't all fit, and shoving a few other bundles into some type of container that survived the jump, but didn't hold up to the elements over the roughly a decade between the jump and the Tina Bar find.  If I understand your post correctly though, the container from the chute Cooper cut the rope out of was left on the plane, and the others were not opened on the plane.  So, that makes my idea pretty unlikely.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on July 16, 2018, 03:18:52 PM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Are you thinking the chest pack would be large enough to pack most of the ransom, or are you thinking it would be way too small?  The reason that I ask is, if it was way too small, I would think that Cooper would have either demanded something else, or cut up one of the extra reserves to make another money bag.  If it was a smaller amount though, maybe he would have opted for a quicker / less reliable solution.  If so, could that be the explanation for the 3 bundles at Tina Bar?


The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar were either touching or with a few inches of each other.  To me, that means that they arrived at the same time and probably were still in the money bag when they first arrived at Tina Bar.  If they had come out of the money bag in the air during the jump, they probably would have landed hundreds of feet apart as a mininum.  And no one to date has been able to explain how the money fragments got to Tina Bar and at different levels in the sand.   

There weren't three bundles found on TBAR, (Ckret screwed that terminology up) there were 3 packets/packages found together which were part of or all of a single randomized rubber banded bundle..

That with other evidence suggests a single bundle (or part) was deposited on TBAR up to a few years before discovery. In that time the money degraded and fragments spread out into the sand.

Occams's Razor...
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on July 16, 2018, 03:30:48 PM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Are you thinking the chest pack would be large enough to pack most of the ransom, or are you thinking it would be way too small?  The reason that I ask is, if it was way too small, I would think that Cooper would have either demanded something else, or cut up one of the extra reserves to make another money bag.  If it was a smaller amount though, maybe he would have opted for a quicker / less reliable solution.  If so, could that be the explanation for the 3 bundles at Tina Bar?


The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar were either touching or with a few inches of each other.  To me, that means that they arrived at the same time and probably were still in the money bag when they first arrived at Tina Bar.  If they had come out of the money bag in the air during the jump, they probably would have landed hundreds of feet apart as a mininum.  And no one to date has been able to explain how the money fragments got to Tina Bar and at different levels in the sand.   

There weren't three bundles found on TBAR, (Ckret screwed that terminology up) there were 3 packets/packages found together which were part of or all of a single randomized rubber banded bundle..

That with other evidence suggests a single bundle (or part) was deposited on TBAR up to a few years before discovery. In that time the money degraded and fragments spread out into the sand.

Occams's Razor...

Flyjack, I am not going to waste any time arguing about such nonsense.  But there were three bundles of money found at Tina Bar and they had rubber bands around each one according to the people that found them.  On TK's web page, you can find additional information including evidence that some of the bills in one of the bundles had been "rotated" or "torqued" by the water current.  I suggest that you visit TK's web page.

The evidence indicates that about $6000 in $20 bills ended up at Tina Bar.  That would represent about 300 $20 bills or three bundles of approximately 100 bills per bundle.  Since the people who put the ransom together wanted to give the impression that it was put together in hurry (and that the bill serial numbers had not been recorded)  they absolutely would not put bank paper tape around those bills.  Hence, the rubber bands and different size bundles.

Your theory does not have any validity whatsoever as to how the fragments made it to different levels in the sand at Tina Bar.  If you feel it is valid, then I would suggest that you visit Tina Bar and take a good look around.

Ocaam's Razor does not have anything to do with this.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on July 16, 2018, 03:36:31 PM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Are you thinking the chest pack would be large enough to pack most of the ransom, or are you thinking it would be way too small?  The reason that I ask is, if it was way too small, I would think that Cooper would have either demanded something else, or cut up one of the extra reserves to make another money bag.  If it was a smaller amount though, maybe he would have opted for a quicker / less reliable solution.  If so, could that be the explanation for the 3 bundles at Tina Bar?


The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar were either touching or with a few inches of each other.  To me, that means that they arrived at the same time and probably were still in the money bag when they first arrived at Tina Bar.  If they had come out of the money bag in the air during the jump, they probably would have landed hundreds of feet apart as a mininum.  And no one to date has been able to explain how the money fragments got to Tina Bar and at different levels in the sand.   

There weren't three bundles found on TBAR, (Ckret screwed that terminology up) there were 3 packets/packages found together which were part of or all of a single randomized rubber banded bundle..

That with other evidence suggests a single bundle (or part) was deposited on TBAR up to a few years before discovery. In that time the money degraded and fragments spread out into the sand.

Occams's Razor...

Flyjack, I am not going to waste any time arguing about such nonsense.  But there were three bundles of money found at Tina Bar and they had rubber bands around each one according to the people that found them.  On TK's web page, you can find additional information including evidence that some of the bills in one of the bundles had been "rotated" or "torqued" by the water current.  I suggest that you visit TK's web page.

It is not nonsense, the terminology is important. It is Banking terminology.

I know rubber band(s) were found but where were the rubber band(s) exactly?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on July 16, 2018, 03:47:18 PM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Are you thinking the chest pack would be large enough to pack most of the ransom, or are you thinking it would be way too small?  The reason that I ask is, if it was way too small, I would think that Cooper would have either demanded something else, or cut up one of the extra reserves to make another money bag.  If it was a smaller amount though, maybe he would have opted for a quicker / less reliable solution.  If so, could that be the explanation for the 3 bundles at Tina Bar?


The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar were either touching or with a few inches of each other.  To me, that means that they arrived at the same time and probably were still in the money bag when they first arrived at Tina Bar.  If they had come out of the money bag in the air during the jump, they probably would have landed hundreds of feet apart as a mininum.  And no one to date has been able to explain how the money fragments got to Tina Bar and at different levels in the sand.   

There weren't three bundles found on TBAR, (Ckret screwed that terminology up) there were 3 packets/packages found together which were part of or all of a single randomized rubber banded bundle..

That with other evidence suggests a single bundle (or part) was deposited on TBAR up to a few years before discovery. In that time the money degraded and fragments spread out into the sand.

Occams's Razor...

Flyjack, I am not going to waste any time arguing about such nonsense.  But there were three bundles of money found at Tina Bar and they had rubber bands around each one according to the people that found them.  On TK's web page, you can find additional information including evidence that some of the bills in one of the bundles had been "rotated" or "torqued" by the water current.  I suggest that you visit TK's web page.

It is not nonsense, the terminology is important. It is Banking terminology.

I know rubber band(s) were found but where were the rubber band(s) exactly?

The rubber banks were around the bundles, which was the logical place for them to be.  Banking terminology doesn't mean anything here.   
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on July 16, 2018, 03:53:30 PM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Are you thinking the chest pack would be large enough to pack most of the ransom, or are you thinking it would be way too small?  The reason that I ask is, if it was way too small, I would think that Cooper would have either demanded something else, or cut up one of the extra reserves to make another money bag.  If it was a smaller amount though, maybe he would have opted for a quicker / less reliable solution.  If so, could that be the explanation for the 3 bundles at Tina Bar?


The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar were either touching or with a few inches of each other.  To me, that means that they arrived at the same time and probably were still in the money bag when they first arrived at Tina Bar.  If they had come out of the money bag in the air during the jump, they probably would have landed hundreds of feet apart as a mininum.  And no one to date has been able to explain how the money fragments got to Tina Bar and at different levels in the sand.   

There weren't three bundles found on TBAR, (Ckret screwed that terminology up) there were 3 packets/packages found together which were part of or all of a single randomized rubber banded bundle..

That with other evidence suggests a single bundle (or part) was deposited on TBAR up to a few years before discovery. In that time the money degraded and fragments spread out into the sand.

Occams's Razor...

Flyjack, I am not going to waste any time arguing about such nonsense.  But there were three bundles of money found at Tina Bar and they had rubber bands around each one according to the people that found them.  On TK's web page, you can find additional information including evidence that some of the bills in one of the bundles had been "rotated" or "torqued" by the water current.  I suggest that you visit TK's web page.

It is not nonsense, the terminology is important. It is Banking terminology.

I know rubber band(s) were found but where were the rubber band(s) exactly?

The rubber banks were around the bundles, which was the logical place for them to be.  Banking terminology doesn't mean anything here.   

Where is the evidence for that?

Terminology is crucial because many sources have conflated bundles and packages/packets.

All I am looking for is actual evidence that confirms the location of the rubber band(s).. nobody knows but everyone has an opinion.

Were they confirmed around each individual package or around the packages (group), or was a partial rubber band found?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on July 16, 2018, 04:17:08 PM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Are you thinking the chest pack would be large enough to pack most of the ransom, or are you thinking it would be way too small?  The reason that I ask is, if it was way too small, I would think that Cooper would have either demanded something else, or cut up one of the extra reserves to make another money bag.  If it was a smaller amount though, maybe he would have opted for a quicker / less reliable solution.  If so, could that be the explanation for the 3 bundles at Tina Bar?


The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar were either touching or with a few inches of each other.  To me, that means that they arrived at the same time and probably were still in the money bag when they first arrived at Tina Bar.  If they had come out of the money bag in the air during the jump, they probably would have landed hundreds of feet apart as a mininum.  And no one to date has been able to explain how the money fragments got to Tina Bar and at different levels in the sand.   

There weren't three bundles found on TBAR, (Ckret screwed that terminology up) there were 3 packets/packages found together which were part of or all of a single randomized rubber banded bundle..

That with other evidence suggests a single bundle (or part) was deposited on TBAR up to a few years before discovery. In that time the money degraded and fragments spread out into the sand.

Occams's Razor...

Flyjack, I am not going to waste any time arguing about such nonsense.  But there were three bundles of money found at Tina Bar and they had rubber bands around each one according to the people that found them.  On TK's web page, you can find additional information including evidence that some of the bills in one of the bundles had been "rotated" or "torqued" by the water current.  I suggest that you visit TK's web page.

It is not nonsense, the terminology is important. It is Banking terminology.

I know rubber band(s) were found but where were the rubber band(s) exactly?

The rubber banks were around the bundles, which was the logical place for them to be.  Banking terminology doesn't mean anything here.   

Where is the evidence for that?

Terminology is crucial because many sources have conflated bundles and packages/packets.

All I am looking for is actual evidence that confirms the location of the rubber band(s).. nobody knows but everyone has an opinion.

Were they confirmed around each individual package or around the packages (group), or was a partial rubber band found?

As stated previously, take a look at TK's web page.  He has written extensively on the money find at Tina Bar, he has conducted tests on some of the bills the FBI has, he has talked to the family that found the money, and conducted other tests using his own real American currency.


Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on July 16, 2018, 04:46:47 PM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Are you thinking the chest pack would be large enough to pack most of the ransom, or are you thinking it would be way too small?  The reason that I ask is, if it was way too small, I would think that Cooper would have either demanded something else, or cut up one of the extra reserves to make another money bag.  If it was a smaller amount though, maybe he would have opted for a quicker / less reliable solution.  If so, could that be the explanation for the 3 bundles at Tina Bar?


The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar were either touching or with a few inches of each other.  To me, that means that they arrived at the same time and probably were still in the money bag when they first arrived at Tina Bar.  If they had come out of the money bag in the air during the jump, they probably would have landed hundreds of feet apart as a mininum.  And no one to date has been able to explain how the money fragments got to Tina Bar and at different levels in the sand.   

There weren't three bundles found on TBAR, (Ckret screwed that terminology up) there were 3 packets/packages found together which were part of or all of a single randomized rubber banded bundle..

That with other evidence suggests a single bundle (or part) was deposited on TBAR up to a few years before discovery. In that time the money degraded and fragments spread out into the sand.

Occams's Razor...

Flyjack, I am not going to waste any time arguing about such nonsense.  But there were three bundles of money found at Tina Bar and they had rubber bands around each one according to the people that found them.  On TK's web page, you can find additional information including evidence that some of the bills in one of the bundles had been "rotated" or "torqued" by the water current.  I suggest that you visit TK's web page.

It is not nonsense, the terminology is important. It is Banking terminology.

I know rubber band(s) were found but where were the rubber band(s) exactly?

The rubber banks were around the bundles, which was the logical place for them to be.  Banking terminology doesn't mean anything here.   

Where is the evidence for that?

Terminology is crucial because many sources have conflated bundles and packages/packets.

All I am looking for is actual evidence that confirms the location of the rubber band(s).. nobody knows but everyone has an opinion.

Were they confirmed around each individual package or around the packages (group), or was a partial rubber band found?

As stated previously, take a look at TK's web page.  He has written extensively on the money find at Tina Bar, he has conducted tests on some of the bills the FBI has, he has talked to the family that found the money, and conducted other tests using his own real American currency.

I did check TK's site, he quotes the FBI doc which isn't clear. A vague statement..

Yes, there were rubber bands... but where were they, completely around each package or fragments around all.. or what?

perhaps it is just unknown and assumed?? from Ingram statements.. it still is vague and unclear.


I am trying to confirm whether each individual package was fully wrapped with a rubber band or the group of 3 was and if the rubber band fragments were stuck on the top and bottom package, if the Ingrams handled the money and removed the rubber bands (crumbled), we may not know for sure.

"FBI Transcript: "As he did so, the boy turned up three bundles of money wrapped with rubber bands, which was a short distance below the surface of the sand. The boy picked up the money and they looked at it and determined that it had once been $20 bills." "The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling."

I don't know why you guys dismiss this, it is very important to this case for many reasons.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 16, 2018, 05:00:05 PM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Are you thinking the chest pack would be large enough to pack most of the ransom, or are you thinking it would be way too small?  The reason that I ask is, if it was way too small, I would think that Cooper would have either demanded something else, or cut up one of the extra reserves to make another money bag.  If it was a smaller amount though, maybe he would have opted for a quicker / less reliable solution.  If so, could that be the explanation for the 3 bundles at Tina Bar?


The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar were either touching or with a few inches of each other.  To me, that means that they arrived at the same time and probably were still in the money bag when they first arrived at Tina Bar.  If they had come out of the money bag in the air during the jump, they probably would have landed hundreds of feet apart as a mininum.  And no one to date has been able to explain how the money fragments got to Tina Bar and at different levels in the sand.   

There weren't three bundles found on TBAR, (Ckret screwed that terminology up) there were 3 packets/packages found together which were part of or all of a single randomized rubber banded bundle..

That with other evidence suggests a single bundle (or part) was deposited on TBAR up to a few years before discovery. In that time the money degraded and fragments spread out into the sand.

Occams's Razor...

Flyjack, I am not going to waste any time arguing about such nonsense.  But there were three bundles of money found at Tina Bar and they had rubber bands around each one according to the people that found them.  On TK's web page, you can find additional information including evidence that some of the bills in one of the bundles had been "rotated" or "torqued" by the water current.  I suggest that you visit TK's web page.

It is not nonsense, the terminology is important. It is Banking terminology.

I know rubber band(s) were found but where were the rubber band(s) exactly?

The rubber banks were around the bundles, which was the logical place for them to be.  Banking terminology doesn't mean anything here.   

Where is the evidence for that?

Terminology is crucial because many sources have conflated bundles and packages/packets.

All I am looking for is actual evidence that confirms the location of the rubber band(s).. nobody knows but everyone has an opinion.

Were they confirmed around each individual package or around the packages (group), or was a partial rubber band found?

As stated previously, take a look at TK's web page.  He has written extensively on the money find at Tina Bar, he has conducted tests on some of the bills the FBI has, he has talked to the family that found the money, and conducted other tests using his own real American currency.

I did check TK's site, he quotes the FBI doc which isn't clear. A vague statement..

Yes, there were rubber bands... but where were they, completely around each package or fragments around all.. or what?

perhaps it is just unknown and assumed?? from Ingram statements.. it still is vague and unclear.


I am trying to confirm whether each individual package was fully wrapped with a rubber band or the group of 3 was and if the rubber band fragments were stuck on the top and bottom package, if the Ingrams handled the money and removed the rubber bands (crumbled), we may not know for sure.

"FBI Transcript: "As he did so, the boy turned up three bundles of money wrapped with rubber bands, which was a short distance below the surface of the sand. The boy picked up the money and they looked at it and determined that it had once been $20 bills." "The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling."

I don't know why you guys dismiss this, it is very important to this case for many reasons.

The money was packed in bundles of approximately $2000 each bundle. Three bundles were discovered on top of each other. I have not read anything that suggests that the bundles themselves were bundled together.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on July 16, 2018, 05:19:30 PM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Are you thinking the chest pack would be large enough to pack most of the ransom, or are you thinking it would be way too small?  The reason that I ask is, if it was way too small, I would think that Cooper would have either demanded something else, or cut up one of the extra reserves to make another money bag.  If it was a smaller amount though, maybe he would have opted for a quicker / less reliable solution.  If so, could that be the explanation for the 3 bundles at Tina Bar?


The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar were either touching or with a few inches of each other.  To me, that means that they arrived at the same time and probably were still in the money bag when they first arrived at Tina Bar.  If they had come out of the money bag in the air during the jump, they probably would have landed hundreds of feet apart as a mininum.  And no one to date has been able to explain how the money fragments got to Tina Bar and at different levels in the sand.   

There weren't three bundles found on TBAR, (Ckret screwed that terminology up) there were 3 packets/packages found together which were part of or all of a single randomized rubber banded bundle..

That with other evidence suggests a single bundle (or part) was deposited on TBAR up to a few years before discovery. In that time the money degraded and fragments spread out into the sand.

Occams's Razor...

Flyjack, I am not going to waste any time arguing about such nonsense.  But there were three bundles of money found at Tina Bar and they had rubber bands around each one according to the people that found them.  On TK's web page, you can find additional information including evidence that some of the bills in one of the bundles had been "rotated" or "torqued" by the water current.  I suggest that you visit TK's web page.

It is not nonsense, the terminology is important. It is Banking terminology.

I know rubber band(s) were found but where were the rubber band(s) exactly?

The rubber banks were around the bundles, which was the logical place for them to be.  Banking terminology doesn't mean anything here.   

Where is the evidence for that?

Terminology is crucial because many sources have conflated bundles and packages/packets.

All I am looking for is actual evidence that confirms the location of the rubber band(s).. nobody knows but everyone has an opinion.

Were they confirmed around each individual package or around the packages (group), or was a partial rubber band found?

As stated previously, take a look at TK's web page.  He has written extensively on the money find at Tina Bar, he has conducted tests on some of the bills the FBI has, he has talked to the family that found the money, and conducted other tests using his own real American currency.

I did check TK's site, he quotes the FBI doc which isn't clear. A vague statement..

Yes, there were rubber bands... but where were they, completely around each package or fragments around all.. or what?

perhaps it is just unknown and assumed?? from Ingram statements.. it still is vague and unclear.


I am trying to confirm whether each individual package was fully wrapped with a rubber band or the group of 3 was and if the rubber band fragments were stuck on the top and bottom package, if the Ingrams handled the money and removed the rubber bands (crumbled), we may not know for sure.

"FBI Transcript: "As he did so, the boy turned up three bundles of money wrapped with rubber bands, which was a short distance below the surface of the sand. The boy picked up the money and they looked at it and determined that it had once been $20 bills." "The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling."

I don't know why you guys dismiss this, it is very important to this case for many reasons.

The money was packed in bundles of approximately $2000 each bundle. Three bundles were discovered on top of each other. I have not read anything that suggests that the bundles themselves were bundled together.

Eric, that is exactly the way I understand it.  And that is exactly the way I understand the FBI transcript that Flyjack quotes in his last post above.  That is, there were three bundles that were not attached to each other and each bundle was held together (at least originally) by its own rubber bands.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on July 16, 2018, 06:31:39 PM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Are you thinking the chest pack would be large enough to pack most of the ransom, or are you thinking it would be way too small?  The reason that I ask is, if it was way too small, I would think that Cooper would have either demanded something else, or cut up one of the extra reserves to make another money bag.  If it was a smaller amount though, maybe he would have opted for a quicker / less reliable solution.  If so, could that be the explanation for the 3 bundles at Tina Bar?


The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar were either touching or with a few inches of each other.  To me, that means that they arrived at the same time and probably were still in the money bag when they first arrived at Tina Bar.  If they had come out of the money bag in the air during the jump, they probably would have landed hundreds of feet apart as a mininum.  And no one to date has been able to explain how the money fragments got to Tina Bar and at different levels in the sand.   

There weren't three bundles found on TBAR, (Ckret screwed that terminology up) there were 3 packets/packages found together which were part of or all of a single randomized rubber banded bundle..

That with other evidence suggests a single bundle (or part) was deposited on TBAR up to a few years before discovery. In that time the money degraded and fragments spread out into the sand.

Occams's Razor...

Flyjack, I am not going to waste any time arguing about such nonsense.  But there were three bundles of money found at Tina Bar and they had rubber bands around each one according to the people that found them.  On TK's web page, you can find additional information including evidence that some of the bills in one of the bundles had been "rotated" or "torqued" by the water current.  I suggest that you visit TK's web page.

It is not nonsense, the terminology is important. It is Banking terminology.

I know rubber band(s) were found but where were the rubber band(s) exactly?

The rubber banks were around the bundles, which was the logical place for them to be.  Banking terminology doesn't mean anything here.   

Where is the evidence for that?

Terminology is crucial because many sources have conflated bundles and packages/packets.

All I am looking for is actual evidence that confirms the location of the rubber band(s).. nobody knows but everyone has an opinion.

Were they confirmed around each individual package or around the packages (group), or was a partial rubber band found?

As stated previously, take a look at TK's web page.  He has written extensively on the money find at Tina Bar, he has conducted tests on some of the bills the FBI has, he has talked to the family that found the money, and conducted other tests using his own real American currency.

I did check TK's site, he quotes the FBI doc which isn't clear. A vague statement..

Yes, there were rubber bands... but where were they, completely around each package or fragments around all.. or what?

perhaps it is just unknown and assumed?? from Ingram statements.. it still is vague and unclear.


I am trying to confirm whether each individual package was fully wrapped with a rubber band or the group of 3 was and if the rubber band fragments were stuck on the top and bottom package, if the Ingrams handled the money and removed the rubber bands (crumbled), we may not know for sure.

"FBI Transcript: "As he did so, the boy turned up three bundles of money wrapped with rubber bands, which was a short distance below the surface of the sand. The boy picked up the money and they looked at it and determined that it had once been $20 bills." "The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling."

I don't know why you guys dismiss this, it is very important to this case for many reasons.

The money was packed in bundles of approximately $2000 each bundle. Three bundles were discovered on top of each other. I have not read anything that suggests that the bundles themselves were bundled together.

Eric, that is exactly the way I understand it.  And that is exactly the way I understand the FBI transcript that Flyjack quotes in his last post above.  That is, there were three bundles that were not attached to each other and each bundle was held together (at least originally) by its own rubber bands.

Guys, let me try this again. There were 3 packages of 100x$20, one was missing some bills likely due to deterioration. The 3 packages were touching, not bundled together. The 3 packages were likely deposited together. The rubber bands were fragmented and brittle, crumbled to the touch.


Where were the rubber bands or fragments? 

example:

Were the rubber bands around each individual package?

OR..

Were there partial rubber band fragments found attached to the packages, if for example there were pieces attached to top and bottom package even if seperated then it may have been a complete bundle.

OR..

Do we not have any evidence other than the vague Ingram statements.

The ransom money was bundled in groups of packages, there were definitely rubber bands around groups of packages to form bundles. I suspect it is more likley the TBAR rubber bands were the remains of the rubber bands for the bundle (group of packages), if not where did they go? Why would there be rubber bands around the TBAR packages and not the bundle which we know was rubber banded?

This is important to get right and not guess at..

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 16, 2018, 07:05:02 PM
The following four paragraphs, in red, are directly from my report and discuss my theory regarding the money find. PLEASE NOTE: I believe that Cooper landed on or near Tena Bar.

You recall that the money was delivered in an open-top canvas bank bag. Upon landing and untying the bank bag it would once again be open on top. I believe that upon burying the bag on the night of the jump, Cooper laid the bag in the hole on its side and covered it, obviously noting the location.

A period of time later, whether one day, one week, one month, or one year, Cooper went back, again under the cover of darkness, to retrieve the money. When pulling the money bag out of its hole, I believe that a few bundles accidentally tumbled out unnoticed. The hole was then back filled and the $5,800 lay buried once again for eight more years until being discovered by Brian Ingram.

It is important to note that the Columbia River in that vicinity was dredged every so often. The dredge spoils would be piled up on the beach a little upstream from where the money was found. Over time the dredge spoils would eventually work their way back into the Columbia, while at the same time replenishing the sand on the beach that was being eroded.

As it turns out, the last dredge deposit on Tena Bar was in 1974. After that, it was decided that for environmental purposes all future dredge spoils would be deposited further inland from the beach so the spoils and the pollution embedded in them wouldn’t find their way back into the river. This decision had the effect of no longer replenishing the eroding beach with new sand, thereby leading to dramatic erosion. Over several years of constant erosion the beach level eventually got to a point where the formerly buried money was uncovered.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on July 16, 2018, 07:14:37 PM
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The following four paragraphs, in red, are directly from my report and discuss my theory regarding the money find. PLEASE NOTE: I believe that Cooper landed on or near Tena Bar.

You recall that the money was delivered in an open-top canvas bank bag. Upon landing and untying the bank bag it would once again be open on top. I believe that upon burying the bag on the night of the jump, Cooper laid the bag in the hole on its side and covered it, obviously noting the location.

A period of time later, whether one day, one week, one month, or one year, Cooper went back, again under the cover of darkness, to retrieve the money. When pulling the money bag out of its hole, I believe that a few bundles accidentally tumbled out unnoticed. The hole was then back filled and the $5,800 lay buried once again for eight more years until being discovered by Brian Ingram.

It is important to note that the Columbia River in that vicinity was dredged every so often. The dredge spoils would be piled up on the beach a little upstream from where the money was found. Over time the dredge spoils would eventually work their way back into the Columbia, while at the same time replenishing the sand on the beach that was being eroded.

As it turns out, the last dredge deposit on Tena Bar was in 1974. After that, it was decided that for environmental purposes all future dredge spoils would be deposited further inland from the beach so the spoils and the pollution embedded in them wouldn’t find their way back into the river. This decision had the effect of no longer replenishing the eroding beach with new sand, thereby leading to dramatic erosion. Over several years of constant erosion the beach level eventually got to a point where the formerly buried money was uncovered.

Ok, in that scenario (or similar) what happened to the rubber bands around the bundles (group of packages)? The ransom money was rubber banded in randomized bundles not individual packages.. somebody would have to have removed packages from the bundles.

Perhaps TBAR money was initially a single bundle (group of packages), the rubber band fragments were from the bundle.. deterioration of the rubber bands caused the slight package separation.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 17, 2018, 12:46:36 AM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Are you thinking the chest pack would be large enough to pack most of the ransom, or are you thinking it would be way too small?  The reason that I ask is, if it was way too small, I would think that Cooper would have either demanded something else, or cut up one of the extra reserves to make another money bag.  If it was a smaller amount though, maybe he would have opted for a quicker / less reliable solution.  If so, could that be the explanation for the 3 bundles at Tina Bar?


The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar were either touching or with a few inches of each other.  To me, that means that they arrived at the same time and probably were still in the money bag when they first arrived at Tina Bar.  If they had come out of the money bag in the air during the jump, they probably would have landed hundreds of feet apart as a mininum.  And no one to date has been able to explain how the money fragments got to Tina Bar and at different levels in the sand.   

There weren't three bundles found on TBAR, (Ckret screwed that terminology up) there were 3 packets/packages found together which were part of or all of a single randomized rubber banded bundle..

That with other evidence suggests a single bundle (or part) was deposited on TBAR up to a few years before discovery. In that time the money degraded and fragments spread out into the sand.

Occams's Razor...

Flyjack, I am not going to waste any time arguing about such nonsense.  But there were three bundles of money found at Tina Bar and they had rubber bands around each one according to the people that found them.  On TK's web page, you can find additional information including evidence that some of the bills in one of the bundles had been "rotated" or "torqued" by the water current.  I suggest that you visit TK's web page.

It is not nonsense, the terminology is important. It is Banking terminology.

I know rubber band(s) were found but where were the rubber band(s) exactly?

The rubber banks were around the bundles, which was the logical place for them to be.  Banking terminology doesn't mean anything here.   

Where is the evidence for that?

Terminology is crucial because many sources have conflated bundles and packages/packets.

All I am looking for is actual evidence that confirms the location of the rubber band(s).. nobody knows but everyone has an opinion.

Were they confirmed around each individual package or around the packages (group), or was a partial rubber band found?

As stated previously, take a look at TK's web page.  He has written extensively on the money find at Tina Bar, he has conducted tests on some of the bills the FBI has, he has talked to the family that found the money, and conducted other tests using his own real American currency.

I did check TK's site, he quotes the FBI doc which isn't clear. A vague statement..

Yes, there were rubber bands... but where were they, completely around each package or fragments around all.. or what?

perhaps it is just unknown and assumed?? from Ingram statements.. it still is vague and unclear.


I am trying to confirm whether each individual package was fully wrapped with a rubber band or the group of 3 was and if the rubber band fragments were stuck on the top and bottom package, if the Ingrams handled the money and removed the rubber bands (crumbled), we may not know for sure.

"FBI Transcript: "As he did so, the boy turned up three bundles of money wrapped with rubber bands, which was a short distance below the surface of the sand. The boy picked up the money and they looked at it and determined that it had once been $20 bills." "The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling."

I don't know why you guys dismiss this, it is very important to this case for many reasons.

The money was packed in bundles of approximately $2000 each bundle. Three bundles were discovered on top of each other. I have not read anything that suggests that the bundles themselves were bundled together.

Hoooooooooooooray!  :congrats: :congrats: :congrats: :congrats: :congrats: :congrats:

Except they (all of the bundles) were stuffed in a large cloth bank bag to be delivered to the airport. Mr. _______ at Seafirst wrapped one or more Alliance Rubber Company No.(x) bands around each bundle. Some bundles received as many as three bands, Mr. X said. I dont recall ever seeing the word 'packages' in any FBI document we received related to this whole matter.

Flyjack has been posting about this since 2013 at Dropzone! It is now 2018. Why the sudden current emergency over what has been considered settled evidence for over 40 years?  :rofl:   
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 17, 2018, 12:58:08 AM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Are you thinking the chest pack would be large enough to pack most of the ransom, or are you thinking it would be way too small?  The reason that I ask is, if it was way too small, I would think that Cooper would have either demanded something else, or cut up one of the extra reserves to make another money bag.  If it was a smaller amount though, maybe he would have opted for a quicker / less reliable solution.  If so, could that be the explanation for the 3 bundles at Tina Bar?


The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar were either touching or with a few inches of each other.  To me, that means that they arrived at the same time and probably were still in the money bag when they first arrived at Tina Bar.  If they had come out of the money bag in the air during the jump, they probably would have landed hundreds of feet apart as a mininum.  And no one to date has been able to explain how the money fragments got to Tina Bar and at different levels in the sand.   

There weren't three bundles found on TBAR, (Ckret screwed that terminology up) there were 3 packets/packages found together which were part of or all of a single randomized rubber banded bundle..

That with other evidence suggests a single bundle (or part) was deposited on TBAR up to a few years before discovery. In that time the money degraded and fragments spread out into the sand.

Occams's Razor...

Flyjack, I am not going to waste any time arguing about such nonsense.  But there were three bundles of money found at Tina Bar and they had rubber bands around each one according to the people that found them.  On TK's web page, you can find additional information including evidence that some of the bills in one of the bundles had been "rotated" or "torqued" by the water current.  I suggest that you visit TK's web page.

It is not nonsense, the terminology is important. It is Banking terminology.

I know rubber band(s) were found but where were the rubber band(s) exactly?

The rubber banks were around the bundles, which was the logical place for them to be.  Banking terminology doesn't mean anything here.   

Where is the evidence for that?

Terminology is crucial because many sources have conflated bundles and packages/packets.

All I am looking for is actual evidence that confirms the location of the rubber band(s).. nobody knows but everyone has an opinion.

Were they confirmed around each individual package or around the packages (group), or was a partial rubber band found?

As stated previously, take a look at TK's web page.  He has written extensively on the money find at Tina Bar, he has conducted tests on some of the bills the FBI has, he has talked to the family that found the money, and conducted other tests using his own real American currency.

I did check TK's site, he quotes the FBI doc which isn't clear. A vague statement..

Yes, there were rubber bands... but where were they, completely around each package or fragments around all.. or what?

perhaps it is just unknown and assumed?? from Ingram statements.. it still is vague and unclear.


I am trying to confirm whether each individual package was fully wrapped with a rubber band or the group of 3 was and if the rubber band fragments were stuck on the top and bottom package, if the Ingrams handled the money and removed the rubber bands (crumbled), we may not know for sure.

"FBI Transcript: "As he did so, the boy turned up three bundles of money wrapped with rubber bands, which was a short distance below the surface of the sand. The boy picked up the money and they looked at it and determined that it had once been $20 bills." "The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling."

I don't know why you guys dismiss this, it is very important to this case for many reasons.

The money was packed in bundles of approximately $2000 each bundle. Three bundles were discovered on top of each other. I have not read anything that suggests that the bundles themselves were bundled together.

Eric, that is exactly the way I understand it.  And that is exactly the way I understand the FBI transcript that Flyjack quotes in his last post above.  That is, there were three bundles that were not attached to each other and each bundle was held together (at least originally) by its own rubber bands.

Guys, let me try this again. There were 3 packages of 100x$20, one was missing some bills likely due to deterioration. The 3 packages were touching, not bundled together. The 3 packages were likely deposited together. The rubber bands were fragmented and brittle, crumbled to the touch.


Where were the rubber bands or fragments? 

example:

Were the rubber bands around each individual package?

OR..

Were there partial rubber band fragments found attached to the packages, if for example there were pieces attached to top and bottom package even if seperated then it may have been a complete bundle.

OR..

Do we not have any evidence other than the vague Ingram statements.

The ransom money was bundled in groups of packages, there were definitely rubber bands around groups of packages to form bundles. I suspect it is more likley the TBAR rubber bands were the remains of the rubber bands for the bundle (group of packages), if not where did they go? Why would there be rubber bands around the TBAR packages and not the bundle which we know was rubber banded?

This is important to get right and not guess at..

Do we not have any evidence other than the vague Ingram statements.

Yes as I previously explained - but you rejected or didn't read! We have the damned bands themselves, or fragments of them! The same bands that Mr. ________ used that night when he grouped and wrapped the bundles delivered to Cooper. Pieces of some of the actual bands used still exist, being held by the FBI and in two other locations. The bands were made by the Alliance Rubber Company and can be forensically shown to be the same bands used by Mr. _________. That is a fact. 

I have no idea what you are driving at with all of this tripe. We seem to have a language barrier. 

Comprenez vous?

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 17, 2018, 01:03:09 AM
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The following four paragraphs, in red, are directly from my report and discuss my theory regarding the money find. PLEASE NOTE: I believe that Cooper landed on or near Tena Bar.

You recall that the money was delivered in an open-top canvas bank bag. Upon landing and untying the bank bag it would once again be open on top. I believe that upon burying the bag on the night of the jump, Cooper laid the bag in the hole on its side and covered it, obviously noting the location.

A period of time later, whether one day, one week, one month, or one year, Cooper went back, again under the cover of darkness, to retrieve the money. When pulling the money bag out of its hole, I believe that a few bundles accidentally tumbled out unnoticed. The hole was then back filled and the $5,800 lay buried once again for eight more years until being discovered by Brian Ingram.

It is important to note that the Columbia River in that vicinity was dredged every so often. The dredge spoils would be piled up on the beach a little upstream from where the money was found. Over time the dredge spoils would eventually work their way back into the Columbia, while at the same time replenishing the sand on the beach that was being eroded.

As it turns out, the last dredge deposit on Tena Bar was in 1974. After that, it was decided that for environmental purposes all future dredge spoils would be deposited further inland from the beach so the spoils and the pollution embedded in them wouldn’t find their way back into the river. This decision had the effect of no longer replenishing the eroding beach with new sand, thereby leading to dramatic erosion. Over several years of constant erosion the beach level eventually got to a point where the formerly buried money was uncovered.

Were it not for fragments found in different strata <below/deeper than the Ingram find> your theory might be viable. I actually considered something like this years ago, before the fragment evidence came to light. But, there would be a number of ways to test such a theory forensically, in any event.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: MeyerLouie on July 17, 2018, 06:02:23 AM
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Petey has a cult following? Hmm.

I can see how you'd put Sail into the "cult" category, and probably EU. But that's only two guys. For me, a cult needs a lot of people - at least the kind of crowd that when they go to a diner they need to push a couple of tables together to fit everyone.

So far, the Petey cult can fit in a booth...

We've got more than that scheduled for pastrami sandwiches at Ben's Deli in Carle Place, NY next time I go missing....

Just sayin'.

I agree. To the best of my knowledge there are only two people alive who firmly believe Sheridan was DB Cooper--me and Sheridan.

Also, Bruce, count me in the next time you grab a pastrami sandwich at Ben's Deli.

Are you serious?  You didn't know of Bob Sailshaw ?   Sailshaw, may he rest in peace, went to his grave insisting that Sheridan was Cooper.... he posted here for a long time.  And I will tell you the same things I said to him....

Peterson may have had the skills and attributes of someone who could pull off the heist... but there are hundreds more just like him....   but there are several things that void him as Cooper... read all of the 302s, all the eyewitness descriptions that tended to slant to latin, Mexican-American, jet black hair, marcelled, olive skin..etc…. Peterson is no black-Irishman from Mahon ...there is NO mistaking Peterson for any southern European....he is as white as it gets, eyes and all.  If you are gonna say "well, makeup putty!  brown lenses ! etc"  there is no way say Tina would not have picked up on that after five hours.. None....    then you have her not identifying him in the zillion photos shown to her after the caper... same with Mitchell.
And I think his personality might be on the wrong side of the fence. .I'd expect Cooper to be unassuming, not a loud hotshot skydiver, which most of them tend to be.  Nonetheless, I hope you are right here.  I want this darn thing solved.

And btw, its me who goes to Bens Deli and got Bruce to go.  Consider yourself invited. Then we can have a dual monologue !!!!!!   hahahaha

The swarthy thing is overstated. I've read the 302s and it's not as if anyone said he was super dark or almost black. He had a little bit of color. Sheridan had been living at the base of the Himalayas for 15 months preceding the skyjacking. So the guy caught some sun...had a tan.

Actually, we don't know whether Tina, Bill or anyone else ever saw Sheridan's picture. In fact, as of May 15, 1972--six months after the skyjacking--they hadn't seen his picture. Regardless, whatever happened, if anything, didn't stop the FBI from paying him a visit 31 years later to grab some DNA, question him, research his alibi in Nepal and check out his previous home in Deer Park, Washington. As for the side-by-side comparison below, that speaks for itself.

The eye color thing, I addressed that previously, they're not certain of the color...hence "possibly brown."

Remember, I'm also speaking of very damning evidence, (i.e., he knew how the dummy reserve was packed, opened a confidential numbered bank account in Singapore in 1971, owned cufflinks that go with the Cooper tie clip set, etc.).

Finally, regarding Ben's Deli, I will take you up on your offer. When I'm in NY I'll reach out.

EU, I saw your video where you didn't stop walking the whole time and got a little winded there a couple of times.  How'd you keep your camera so steady?  And why didn't you stop walking?  All action there, that spices things up a bit around here.

I learned about SP from Bob Sailshaw -- my good friend.  Bob and I talked a lot about the DBC case and, in particular, Sheridan Peterson.  Bob and I met on several occasions -- Bob invited me for lunch at the Seattle Yacht Club a couple of times, and he gave me a couple of DBC DVD tapes -- that I will always cherish because Bob has since passed on.   Bob and I talked a lot about SP on our trip to Tina Bar.  I don't think you have brought any new information to the table about Petey, other than you are going out on a limb and naming SP as the guy.  Maybe we needed someone else to take the baton that Bob Sailshaw passed on; apparently that someone is you. 

So many folks over the years, in particular, Jo Weber and RMB, have singled out their favorite suspects and have ignored all evidence and information to the contrary.  Their tunnel vision has caused them to ignore any other possibilities. 

Sailshaw was trying to destroy SP's alibi about being in Nepal on 11/24/71.  I believe he felt he had poked a hole or two in that alibi -- last time I talked with Bob.   

MeyerLouie

I know who Bob was, but never got the chance to speak with him.

I have talked about Bob with several people, including Sheridan who, needless to say, detested him. All of these conversations have provided some insight into the mind of Sheridan Peterson.

You mentioned that I have brought nothing new to the table about Sheridan Peterson. I disagree. An example of five specific items follows:

1) The revelation about Sheridan's numbered bank account in Singapore (which also destroys his Nepal alibi).
2) The revelation about Sheridan's cufflinks that match Cooper's tie clip.
3) The revelation about Sheridan discussing the dummy reserve being daisy-chained, which he couldn't possibly have know without him actually opening the  chute, thereby putting him on the jet.
4) The revelation (public) about Sheridan's DNA not clearing him as was the case with both Duane and LD.
5) The revelation about Sheridan's money practices which explains where all or most of the money went.

Moreover , in the report I discuss a lot of other information that specifically relates to the money find, drop zone (planned and ultimate), his tie, etc.

I want to be very clear about one thing. I have exhaustively looked into everything, pro and con, about Sheridan as a suspect. I have actually tried to prove that Sheridan wasn't DB Cooper--but could not.

I have tackled every issue whether it be his DNA, eye color, alibi, whatever. Unlike others, I have explained how all of the evidence fits with Sheridan--the 727 knowledge, parachuting knowledge, tie particles, DNA, alibi,etc.) I am not in the business of going down rabbit holes, focusing on those items that fit and conveniently ignoring those that don't.

In fact, I actually disproved what Bob said about Sheridan speaking with him about the airstairs--neither the 727 or 737 had even flown by 1962. This was the result of me vetting everything related to Sheridan even if it supported the notion of Sheridan as DB Cooper.

In closing, I believe Sheridan is likely DB Cooper (99%) based upon the evidence. To be sure, I have not found anything that exonerates the man--be it DNA, eye color, appearance, knowledge, personality, alibi, etc.). That said, if someone knows something that I don't I'd like to hear about it.


Evidence, EU?  All circumstantial, and like all the others who have their pet suspects, you provide no proof. 

Sheridan detested Sailshaw?  Most likely, but Sail helped SP get a job and he provided a place for him to live -- and SP skipped out without paying any rent.  If anyone had a right to detest someone, it was Sail, but Sail was a good, decent, kind person.  That wasn't his nature.  Sounds like SP is one despicable guy -- for this and other reasons discussed here. 

Let me rephrase, you have brought new information, but I don't find it all that impressive.  What, SP couldn't have a bank account in Singapore and be in Nepal at the same time.  I have bank accounts in the USA and Canada, don't have a problem there.  Cufflinks matching the tie clip?  Could be a mere coincidence.  He has to be on the plane to be able to open a parachute?  Nonsense.  SP's DNA not clearing him?  After what we have observed regarding the actions of the FBI, that revelation doesn't necessarily mean anything.  Again, purely circumstantial, it may mean nothing.  Sheridan's money practices explains where the loot went?  Really?  SP's money practices explains nothing!  Mere conjecture.

I get real nervous about someone who uses "etc" at least twice.  I never allowed my students to ever use "etc" when they turned in writing assignments.  I insisted they should always explain what "etc" is, elaborate, explain fully.  "Etc" is a total cop out.

You are certainly not the first one to say Sheridan fits the profile about as good as anybody, but there are problems with him as a suspect -- which have been discussed fully here and at the DZ.

Too bad you and Sailshaw didn't meet.  You both like the same suspect and you both have different takes on why you think so.  It's all good.

Meyer

Wow. Where to start?

Etc. is used so I don't end up writing a book while answering a question. Do not misinterpret its use as mere filler, fluff, or a "cop out."

I am not referring to a garden variety bank account, I'm talking about a confidential numbered bank account. These are very different animals and highly suspect. In the words of FBI Special Agent Fryar, "the only reason to have a numbered account is to hide something."

The parachute is not "non-sense." This is very important. Let me explain.

Sheridan discussed the survivability of Cooper's jump during one of his interviews with the FBI. He said that Cooper didn't survive because Cooper didn't know what he was doing. To support this claim Sheridan mentioned that Cooper selected the "dummy reserve" versus the "genuine reserve." This is ridiculous because neither of the reserves could be attached to either main because none had "D" rings. Moreover, as Sheridan was discussing the dummy reserve selection he explained that it was "daisy-chained" inside, therefore, inoperable.

FACT, there is no possible way that Sheridan could have known that the dummy reserve was daisy-chained unless he actually opened the dummy reserve and looked in himself. After all, daisy-chaining a reserve is not a common practice. On the other hand, removing shroud lines and "flaking" the canopy is.

In addition, the FBI publicly clearing Weber and LD by virtue of their DNA, but refusing to clear, or even discuss, Sheridan's DNA results is highly suspect. Also, Larry Carr (NORJAK lead agent at the time) befriending Sheridan and buying his book incognito six years after Sheridan's DNA was taken is also highly suspect. You don't agree?

Finally, circumstantial evidence is all there is at this point in time--unless, of course, we find a Cooper twenty dollar bill. It's been nearly 50 years. I'm amazed at how often I read the words "circumstantial evidence" used in a derogatory sense. Good luck solving anything if you are unwilling to consider circumstantial evidence.

It was not necessary for you to use "etc" in your post above.  List as many of the Cooper subtopics as you can, it's okay if you don't get 'em all; 'etc' not required, EVER!  It is fluff, filler, and a cop out, ALWAYS!  Go ahead, elaborate, explain fully....we've got the time and space here to hear you out.
 
I agree, "circumstantial evidence" is valid.  Many jury trials have convicted defendants on just circumstantial evidence, agreed.  Physical evidence is always better.  I stand by my statements on the Expedition Unknown program...if we can just find that one piece of physical evidence, then all the pieces of the puzzle will come together.  That's what I said.  That's why I go to Tina Bar a lot, that's why I go to Cooper country a lot, I've traveled up the Washougal River several times -- I'm a field guy, I like going out into the field and look for actual physical evidence.  That's what we really need here.

I thought the main, back chute was the important one.  Isn't it possible Cooper chose the dummy chute on purpose?  The reserve chute was not his primary concern, he puts all his eggs in one basket and bet his life on a main chute being operational.  Daisy-chaining the reserve -- I'm not convinced it's as big a deal as you are making it out to be.

Failing to clear Sheridan's DNA results may not be all that suspect after all.  It doesn't necessarily mean anything.  The FBI holds back information all the time, their actions or lack thereof have been illogical (to us) many times, seemingly with no rhyme nor reason.  The FBI has their reasons, and they don't always share those reasons with us. 

Meyer

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: MeyerLouie on July 17, 2018, 06:15:27 AM
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Whoa, Georger - dissing 377? NO!

Lots of people are "devoted" to Sheridan Peterson. Was he DB Cooper? Probably not. So what is interesting about parachutes in the Cooper case - number of things.

1, his chute selection process, picking of a viable common chute.
2. ease with which he cut up a front pack to try and fabricate a money bag hanging with waste chord because he said the backpack had not been delivered - known technique from WWII paratroopers.
3. started chute preparation early, as soon as possible - readiness for a quick exit somewhere in WA or OR.
4. worked with the pilots to trim plane to maximise drop success.

Technique commensurate with WWII or Korean War training - in his age category given the stews judgement about his age.

World class SKYDIVER with innovative history? Based on what from the above observed evidence?

Unique personality traits Sheridan has? Based on what personality traits observed by the stews?

But, SP has become a cult and will continue to be the focus of a cult (in Cooperland) no matter what anyone like me says! So, let me return you to regularly scheduled Sheridan cult discussion. That is going to happen no matter what anyone says. That is being controlled by Odin in the stars of Valhalla! Its that obsessive skydiver gene thing!  8)   

The back pack parachutes and the chest pack parachutes were delivered to Cooper at the same time and immediately after the money bag, which was not in the "knapsack" that he had requested.  All of this equipment, plus the maps and crew meals, was in the car that was driven by a plain clothes Seattle detective and had Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC, as a passenger.  Lee unloaded everything and gave it to Tina who had to make several trips to get it all on the airliner.

I doubt if a chest pack parachute had sufficient volume to pack the entire ransom money.

Are you thinking the chest pack would be large enough to pack most of the ransom, or are you thinking it would be way too small?  The reason that I ask is, if it was way too small, I would think that Cooper would have either demanded something else, or cut up one of the extra reserves to make another money bag.  If it was a smaller amount though, maybe he would have opted for a quicker / less reliable solution.  If so, could that be the explanation for the 3 bundles at Tina Bar?


The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar were either touching or with a few inches of each other.  To me, that means that they arrived at the same time and probably were still in the money bag when they first arrived at Tina Bar.  If they had come out of the money bag in the air during the jump, they probably would have landed hundreds of feet apart as a mininum.  And no one to date has been able to explain how the money fragments got to Tina Bar and at different levels in the sand.   

There weren't three bundles found on TBAR, (Ckret screwed that terminology up) there were 3 packets/packages found together which were part of or all of a single randomized rubber banded bundle..

That with other evidence suggests a single bundle (or part) was deposited on TBAR up to a few years before discovery. In that time the money degraded and fragments spread out into the sand.

Occams's Razor...

Flyjack, I am not going to waste any time arguing about such nonsense.  But there were three bundles of money found at Tina Bar and they had rubber bands around each one according to the people that found them.  On TK's web page, you can find additional information including evidence that some of the bills in one of the bundles had been "rotated" or "torqued" by the water current.  I suggest that you visit TK's web page.

It is not nonsense, the terminology is important. It is Banking terminology.

I know rubber band(s) were found but where were the rubber band(s) exactly?

The rubber banks were around the bundles, which was the logical place for them to be.  Banking terminology doesn't mean anything here.   

Where is the evidence for that?

Terminology is crucial because many sources have conflated bundles and packages/packets.

All I am looking for is actual evidence that confirms the location of the rubber band(s).. nobody knows but everyone has an opinion.

Were they confirmed around each individual package or around the packages (group), or was a partial rubber band found?

As stated previously, take a look at TK's web page.  He has written extensively on the money find at Tina Bar, he has conducted tests on some of the bills the FBI has, he has talked to the family that found the money, and conducted other tests using his own real American currency.

I did check TK's site, he quotes the FBI doc which isn't clear. A vague statement..

Yes, there were rubber bands... but where were they, completely around each package or fragments around all.. or what?

perhaps it is just unknown and assumed?? from Ingram statements.. it still is vague and unclear.


I am trying to confirm whether each individual package was fully wrapped with a rubber band or the group of 3 was and if the rubber band fragments were stuck on the top and bottom package, if the Ingrams handled the money and removed the rubber bands (crumbled), we may not know for sure.

"FBI Transcript: "As he did so, the boy turned up three bundles of money wrapped with rubber bands, which was a short distance below the surface of the sand. The boy picked up the money and they looked at it and determined that it had once been $20 bills." "The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling."

I don't know why you guys dismiss this, it is very important to this case for many reasons.

The money was packed in bundles of approximately $2000 each bundle. Three bundles were discovered on top of each other. I have not read anything that suggests that the bundles themselves were bundled together.

Eric, that is exactly the way I understand it.  And that is exactly the way I understand the FBI transcript that Flyjack quotes in his last post above.  That is, there were three bundles that were not attached to each other and each bundle was held together (at least originally) by its own rubber bands.

Guys, let me try this again. There were 3 packages of 100x$20, one was missing some bills likely due to deterioration. The 3 packages were touching, not bundled together. The 3 packages were likely deposited together. The rubber bands were fragmented and brittle, crumbled to the touch.


Where were the rubber bands or fragments? 

example:

Were the rubber bands around each individual package?

OR..

Were there partial rubber band fragments found attached to the packages, if for example there were pieces attached to top and bottom package even if seperated then it may have been a complete bundle.

OR..

Do we not have any evidence other than the vague Ingram statements.

The ransom money was bundled in groups of packages, there were definitely rubber bands around groups of packages to form bundles. I suspect it is more likley the TBAR rubber bands were the remains of the rubber bands for the bundle (group of packages), if not where did they go? Why would there be rubber bands around the TBAR packages and not the bundle which we know was rubber banded?

This is important to get right and not guess at..


Maybe it's important for you to get right and not guess at.  You've been harping on this particular issue for five years now.  What have you done to answer your own questions?  As noted by others, this is a topic that has been settled and agreed upon long ago.  For many of us, it has been adequately addressed -- read the posts by R99 and Georger.  Time to move on, buckaroo.....

Meyer
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: MeyerLouie on July 17, 2018, 06:46:15 AM
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The following four paragraphs, in red, are directly from my report and discuss my theory regarding the money find. PLEASE NOTE: I believe that Cooper landed on or near Tena Bar.

You recall that the money was delivered in an open-top canvas bank bag. Upon landing and untying the bank bag it would once again be open on top. I believe that upon burying the bag on the night of the jump, Cooper laid the bag in the hole on its side and covered it, obviously noting the location.

A period of time later, whether one day, one week, one month, or one year, Cooper went back, again under the cover of darkness, to retrieve the money. When pulling the money bag out of its hole, I believe that a few bundles accidentally tumbled out unnoticed. The hole was then back filled and the $5,800 lay buried once again for eight more years until being discovered by Brian Ingram.

It is important to note that the Columbia River in that vicinity was dredged every so often. The dredge spoils would be piled up on the beach a little upstream from where the money was found. Over time the dredge spoils would eventually work their way back into the Columbia, while at the same time replenishing the sand on the beach that was being eroded.

As it turns out, the last dredge deposit on Tena Bar was in 1974. After that, it was decided that for environmental purposes all future dredge spoils would be deposited further inland from the beach so the spoils and the pollution embedded in them wouldn’t find their way back into the river. This decision had the effect of no longer replenishing the eroding beach with new sand, thereby leading to dramatic erosion. Over several years of constant erosion the beach level eventually got to a point where the formerly buried money was uncovered.

Were it not for fragments found in different strata <below/deeper than the Ingram find> your theory might be viable. I actually considered something like this years ago, before the fragment evidence came to light. But, there would be a number of ways to test such a theory forensically, in any event.


I agree with Georger -- the money shards found below the Tina Bar bundles pretty much negate a plant theory.  I have a question -- How deep, how thick, was the dredged sand at Tina Bar after it had been spread out by a backhoe/bulldozer?  R99 and I talked with a local at Tina Bar, he said he had fished there for most of his life -- some 40+ years.  He gave us an indication of just how severe the sand erosion was at Tina Bar since the early 1970s.  Take my word, it was significant!  From where the Tina Bar money was found, from the local's estimates, he said a few feet above our heads and 40+ feet back from the shoreline -- taking  into account a nice little incline, maybe 30 degrees, along that stretch of beach.

Meyer
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Shutter on July 17, 2018, 09:28:43 AM
EU, have you seen the news video with the FBI digging on Tbar?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 17, 2018, 11:37:35 AM
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EU, have you seen the news video with the FBI digging on Tbar?

Yes, I have seen video footage. I also address the "shard field" in my report. Below, in red, is what I say about the field in the report:

The investigation at Tena Bar was conducted by organizing a typical grid search. The area was sectioned off in 20’ X 20’ blocks where digging and sifting would take place and anything that happened to be found would be catalogued and pinpointed on the grid.

To assist in this three-day effort, the FBI hired two of the Fazio brothers, along with their backhoes, to dig trenches a few feet deep. I talked with Richard Fazio about this effort multiple times in 2017 and 2018 to gain some clarity with respect to what was found and where—because, as has been typical with the NORJAK investigation, there are disparities in the story.

Fazio told me that the FBI discovered a small portion of money shards around the immediate area of the money find on the first day—the immediate area meaning within a foot. Beyond that initial discovery, he said nothing else was found. Moreover, his brother confirms the same recollection. Fazio stated further that he and his brother were there the entire three days and if anything else was discovered neither he nor his brother was aware of it or told by anyone.

This is important because there have been reports that the money shard field was extensive, deep and plentiful. That said, there is simply no evidence to support such a claim. In fact, on the Citizen Sleuths website—a site created and run by scientist Tom Kaye along with engineer Alan Stone and scientific illustrator Carol Abraczinskas, all of whom were given unprecedented access to the FBI evidence in the case—pictures of the evidence in the FBI’s possession include two small plastic boxes containing money shards totaling enough to fill a small cardboard match box.

I reached out to Kaye to verify that the picture showing the shards represented the totality of the FBI’s shard collection. In response Kaye confirmed this by stating, “Yes as far as we know.”
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 17, 2018, 12:25:46 PM
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EU, have you seen the news video with the FBI digging on Tbar?

Yes, I have seen video footage. I also address the "shard field" in my report. Below, in red, is what I say about the field in the report:

The investigation at Tena Bar was conducted by organizing a typical grid search. The area was sectioned off in 20’ X 20’ blocks where digging and sifting would take place and anything that happened to be found would be catalogued and pinpointed on the grid.

To assist in this three-day effort, the FBI hired two of the Fazio brothers, along with their backhoes, to dig trenches a few feet deep. I talked with Richard Fazio about this effort multiple times in 2017 and 2018 to gain some clarity with respect to what was found and where—because, as has been typical with the NORJAK investigation, there are disparities in the story.

Fazio told me that the FBI discovered a small portion of money shards around the immediate area of the money find on the first day—the immediate area meaning within a foot. Beyond that initial discovery, he said nothing else was found. Moreover, his brother confirms the same recollection. Fazio stated further that he and his brother were there the entire three days and if anything else was discovered neither he nor his brother was aware of it or told by anyone.

This is important because there have been reports that the money shard field was extensive, deep and plentiful. That said, there is simply no evidence to support such a claim. In fact, on the Citizen Sleuths website—a site created and run by scientist Tom Kaye along with engineer Alan Stone and scientific illustrator Carol Abraczinskas, all of whom were given unprecedented access to the FBI evidence in the case—pictures of the evidence in the FBI’s possession include two small plastic boxes containing money shards totaling enough to fill a small cardboard match box.

I reached out to Kaye to verify that the picture showing the shards represented the totality of the FBI’s shard collection. In response Kaye confirmed this by stating, “Yes as far as we know.”

Shutter is right. You need to see the video: where the digging is, where shards are being found, any comment to the reporter about the depth of the find (depth and location in two cases is confirmed visually by where people are digging and finding). Actual visual evidence in the videos settles some of the debate. 

The Fazio's puzzle me. They were there but they dont describe what the video documents! Their story does not mirror agents stories. And they claim literally, they were on the bar daily prior to the "arrival" of the money. They say the money was not there the "day before it was found because we were there and didnt notice anything!" Nobody can confirm this who was also there on these same days but never saw the Fazios at all! Their explanation is "the money came up with the tide during the night before it was found. The money was found on the tide line", the Fazio say.

I have asked Tom many times if he has ever (finally) talked to Schreuder - he says no. I find that surprising.

But ... I agree. Erosion is part of the money find story. Even Tom believes that, if I understand Tom's words. Tom believes the money was buried early, pre 1974, and eroded out. Erosion is a significant factor at Tina Bar. Erosion is unavoidably part of the money story, but which part of the story? And Palmer say not one word about erosion in lieu of the fact he was supposed to be a professional erosion expert! Following the T_Bar excavation the govt sent Palmer over the the St Helens event to give his opinion as a "sediment erosion expert".  The word "erosion" is never mentioned in the Palmer report! What Palmer describes are consolidated strata. The only feature Palmer attaches a time value to is his "upper active 4" layer currently being worked on". Palmer's lower consolidated layers were presumably there ... since the Pleistocene - which is nonsense. 

Let me say something new I have never mentioned because it's personal. I welcome these discrepancies in people's reports/theories. Why? It forces a scientific resolution, tests, data taking, and science. Because of my background I usually ponder 'what would be admissible in Court'. Opinions is where science begins ...       
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 17, 2018, 12:50:04 PM
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EU, have you seen the news video with the FBI digging on Tbar?

Yes, I have seen video footage. I also address the "shard field" in my report. Below, in red, is what I say about the field in the report:

The investigation at Tena Bar was conducted by organizing a typical grid search. The area was sectioned off in 20’ X 20’ blocks where digging and sifting would take place and anything that happened to be found would be catalogued and pinpointed on the grid.

To assist in this three-day effort, the FBI hired two of the Fazio brothers, along with their backhoes, to dig trenches a few feet deep. I talked with Richard Fazio about this effort multiple times in 2017 and 2018 to gain some clarity with respect to what was found and where—because, as has been typical with the NORJAK investigation, there are disparities in the story.

Fazio told me that the FBI discovered a small portion of money shards around the immediate area of the money find on the first day—the immediate area meaning within a foot. Beyond that initial discovery, he said nothing else was found. Moreover, his brother confirms the same recollection. Fazio stated further that he and his brother were there the entire three days and if anything else was discovered neither he nor his brother was aware of it or told by anyone.

This is important because there have been reports that the money shard field was extensive, deep and plentiful. That said, there is simply no evidence to support such a claim. In fact, on the Citizen Sleuths website—a site created and run by scientist Tom Kaye along with engineer Alan Stone and scientific illustrator Carol Abraczinskas, all of whom were given unprecedented access to the FBI evidence in the case—pictures of the evidence in the FBI’s possession include two small plastic boxes containing money shards totaling enough to fill a small cardboard match box.

I reached out to Kaye to verify that the picture showing the shards represented the totality of the FBI’s shard collection. In response Kaye confirmed this by stating, “Yes as far as we know.”

One more thing, quickly.

Shutter believes the dredge sediments were spread further north than reported and shifted north in any event. He thinks the Ingram money may have shifted north in the direction of river flow, or was spread further north by the Faxio than believed.

One unsettled question is: how many trenches did Palmer dig? 1 or 2? One at the Ingram site and one south of that? Did he compared strata in two trenches at different locations separated by some distance? There is nothing in the Palmer report about such a comparison. What does the video show? I know Shutter has an opinion about this.     
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: 377 on July 17, 2018, 12:54:37 PM
Georger wrote: "The Fazio's puzzle me. They were there but they dont describe what the video documents!"

VERY puzzling indeed. I accepted the TV report as very convincing evidence that there was no plant. Was the TV report inaccurate or misleading? What motive or explanation would there be for an inaccurate or exaggerated report? 

If the 3D shard field was so extensive volumetrically, why did the FBI only collect a single tiny quantity (matchbox size)? I'm no soils or erosion expert but it might have made sense to take separate samples from different depths and horizontal locations documenting the precise vertical and horizontal position of each sample batch. That's what I think I have seen archeologists do when excavating sites. Lots of samples, all separated and position tagged.

The Fazios knew that bar like no others did. It was like part of their home, their turf. I'd have expected them to pay close attention to the FBI dig and the results. Why does their story differ so substantially from the TV report?

This is a real head-scratcher.

377
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 17, 2018, 01:12:15 PM
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Georger wrote: "The Fazio's puzzle me. They were there but they dont describe what the video documents!"

VERY puzzling indeed. I accepted the TV report as very convincing evidence that there was no plant. Was the TV report inaccurate or misleading? What motive or explanation would there be for an inaccurate or exaggerated report? 

If the 3D shard field was so extensive volumetrically, why did the FBI only collect a single tiny quantity (matchbox size)? I'm no soils or erosion exp[ert but it might have made sense to take separate samples from different depths and horizontal locations documenting the precise vertical and horizontal position of each sample batch. That's what I think I have seen archeologists do when excavating sites. Lots of samples, all separated and position tagged.

The Fazios knew that bar like no others did. It was like part of their home, their turf. I'd have expected them to pay close attention to the FBI dig and the results. Why does their story differ so substantially from the TV report?

This is a real head-scratcher.

377

TV reports are completely unreliable. I can tell you from personal experience that the media--both print and TV--usually get things wrong in EVERY story. I'm  not suggesting malice, to the contrary, it's usually expediency and summary as it relates to editing.

Regardless, we know for certain what the FBI has on hand as evidence. Also, we know what the Fazio's (both brother's) first-hand account is regarding the matter. If someone can prove otherwise, let's have it.

I believe the Fazio brothers and the shard evidence in the FBI's possession.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on July 17, 2018, 01:17:45 PM
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EU, have you seen the news video with the FBI digging on Tbar?

Shuttter, if you have a link to the news video that was posted on YouTube at one point, please post it.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Kermit on July 17, 2018, 01:42:39 PM
Perhaps it’s just me but I give a lot more credence to testimony and videos taken at time of events than those given 30,40 or 47 years later. Take for instance the FBI CHANGING their opinions of flight path after the Tina Bar money find. Suddenly the Washougal river drainage came a possibility! Total BS in my mind ! Stories and memories change as time rolls on !
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 17, 2018, 02:13:37 PM
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Perhaps it’s just me but I give a lot more credence to testimony and videos taken at time of events than those given 30,40 or 47 years later. Take for instance the FBI CHANGING their opinions of flight path after the Tina Bar money find. Suddenly the Washougal river drainage came a possibility! Total BS in my mind ! Stories and memories change as time rolls on !

Remember, the testimony from the Fazio brothers is not 47 years later...this is what they have said from Day 1.

Also, there is no disputing what the FBI has in their shard evidence box. That is concrete evidence.

What does the video show or say that disputes any of this?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Kermit on July 17, 2018, 04:37:39 PM
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Perhaps it’s just me but I give a lot more credence to testimony and videos taken at time of events than those given 30,40 or 47 years later. Take for instance the FBI CHANGING their opinions of flight path after the Tina Bar money find. Suddenly the Washougal river drainage came a possibility! Total BS in my mind ! Stories and memories change as time rolls on !

Remember, the testimony from the Fazio brothers is not 47 years later...this is what they have said from Day 1.

Also, there is no disputing what the FBI has in their shard evidence box. That is concrete evidence.

What does the video show or say that disputes any of this?

Don’t get me wrong here as I’m giving the video and testimony given by everyone involved back in 1971 and also 1980 ! However you did mention your talking to Richard Fabio in 2017 and 2018 right ? I’m simply making a statement as to why I pay less attention to what’s being said in 2018 as I do when events took place. I’ve always noted the difference in Fabio’s brothers statements and the FBI’s statements. I did see the videos however !
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 17, 2018, 06:17:33 PM
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Georger wrote: "The Fazio's puzzle me. They were there but they dont describe what the video documents!"

VERY puzzling indeed. I accepted the TV report as very convincing evidence that there was no plant. Was the TV report inaccurate or misleading? What motive or explanation would there be for an inaccurate or exaggerated report? 

If the 3D shard field was so extensive volumetrically, why did the FBI only collect a single tiny quantity (matchbox size)? I'm no soils or erosion expert but it might have made sense to take separate samples from different depths and horizontal locations documenting the precise vertical and horizontal position of each sample batch. That's what I think I have seen archeologists do when excavating sites. Lots of samples, all separated and position tagged.

The Fazios knew that bar like no others did. It was like part of their home, their turf. I'd have expected them to pay close attention to the FBI dig and the results. Why does their story differ so substantially from the TV report?

This is a real head-scratcher.

377

1. The Fazio account stands on its own - has never changed. Money came in with the tide, was buried on the tide line. Didnt see it yesterday before the Ingrams were here. Thats a recipe for a plant theory involving the Ingrams.

2. The video shows several large fragments being found. Dorwin says they were bagged and tagged and sent to Washington along with the Ingram bills, for lab work. FBI docs Tom and I had bears this out. Lab reports are named but for only two groups of money: original bills found, second shipment of two bills turned in by Crystal several days later (the Ingrams had withed as souvenirs!). There is no question bills and frags were sent in to the Washington lab for lab analysis.

3. Were found frags shown in video sent to WA Lab. Yes, according to four agents I interviewed.

4. Why dont larger frags appear in Tom's photos? Because the tiny pieces in two plastic boxes Tom shows ARE NOT FRAGS FOUND DURING THE EXCAVATION. Those two plastic boxes are "residue" collected from the evidence folders the original Ingram bills were placed in. Total count of those folders Im not sure but there were many! The larger frags found during excavation were never placed in evidence folders - they went into "check envelopes" socalled. Those frags are still in Washington and never were sent back to Seattle so when Tom etal were at Seattle the excavation frags were not there to even see. It's very simple. Tom w as shown what was there. How was Tom to know the whole story? Lerry apparently didnt know either - its many years after the fact.

5. After the Court decision the bills in evidence folders were were split (actual evidence folders were given) and given to each person awarded money .... FBI, Globe Insurance, and Brian Ingram. Some new folders were added in order to accommodate the dividing of bills given to each awardee. The awardees were not just handed bills or pieces of bills but were given actual FBI evidence folders contents of which were the assigned bills. That process was overseen by the Court and once done the Court signed off on it.  For example: Brian Ingram has his bills in the original FBI red tape evidence folders he was given by the FBI and the Court.

6. Here's the kicker!  Each evidence folder originally given each awardee has bits and fragments and little pieces of money IN ADDITION TO the bills given each party awarded by the Court. All of these bits and pieces of bills are over and above in addition to (a) Tom's plastic boxes at Seattle he photographed, (b) frags sent in in 1980 to the lab collected during excavation at Tina Bar (these are the frags Dorwin talks about and is shown holding in one case).

So when Tom displays his photo of the frags in two tiny plastic boxes, he is showing the tip of the iceberg, literally! And he should be aware of this fact if he would just stop and think about it! In addition I have personally seen several of these folders being held by one of the awardees and I can guarantee you 'bits a pieces' are in every one of those folders. Some of it is basically "dust".

A total accounting of all the bits and pieces being held in different places was never made by anyone, for obvious reasons. As time has passed and more and more people handled and worked with these folders more tiny frags have been created. The money is that fragile! The thought is that among the bits and pieces in these folders are bits and pieces of the rubber bands originally reported. Places on bills where pieces of bands once stuck and were pulled opr rubbed off during the lifetime of this money, has reportedly been photographed.

Thats enough for right now -       
 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 17, 2018, 06:47:52 PM
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Georger wrote: "The Fazio's puzzle me. They were there but they dont describe what the video documents!"

VERY puzzling indeed. I accepted the TV report as very convincing evidence that there was no plant. Was the TV report inaccurate or misleading? What motive or explanation would there be for an inaccurate or exaggerated report? 

If the 3D shard field was so extensive volumetrically, why did the FBI only collect a single tiny quantity (matchbox size)? I'm no soils or erosion expert but it might have made sense to take separate samples from different depths and horizontal locations documenting the precise vertical and horizontal position of each sample batch. That's what I think I have seen archeologists do when excavating sites. Lots of samples, all separated and position tagged.

The Fazios knew that bar like no others did. It was like part of their home, their turf. I'd have expected them to pay close attention to the FBI dig and the results. Why does their story differ so substantially from the TV report?

This is a real head-scratcher.

377

Were I a lawyer in Court I would ask: "Does everyone see this photo of the fragments being shown by agents _____ and Schreuder to news cameras in 1980? Where are these same fragments today? We would like to see them. Tom Kaye says they don't exist but clearly they existed in 1980! Where did these fragments go? Can we get them here in Court? Are they in some evidence bin in Washington, were they given away to somebody? They clearly existed in 1980! Where are they today and can the FBI produce them?"

   
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 17, 2018, 07:44:17 PM
The bottom line is this:

Everything that was found was found on the first day of the FBI search and found around the original money find spot. I have read nothing that contradicts this point. More to the point, I have seen nothing credible that indicates money shards were "feet" deep.

That said, I would expect to find some shards near the waterline because the area the money was spotted had recently been washed over according to Brian Ingram. The bundles had essentially been unearthed at this point by way of erosion.

In conclusion, I assert that Sheridan Peterson retrieved all but a few of the bundles per my previous post. The bulk of the money ended up in a Singapore confidential numbered bank account. Years later the three bundles accidentally left behind were unearthed due to significant beach erosion.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Kermit on July 17, 2018, 09:06:35 PM
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The bottom line is this:

Everything that was found was found on the first day of the FBI search and found around the original money find spot. I have read nothing that contradicts this point. More to the point, I have seen nothing credible that indicates money shards were "feet" deep.

That said, I would expect to find some shards near the waterline because the area the money was spotted had recently been washed over according to Brian Ingram. The bundles had essentially been unearthed at this point by way of erosion.

In conclusion, I assert that Sheridan Peterson retrieved all but a few of the bundles per my previous post. The bulk of the money ended up in a Singapore confidential numbered bank account. Years later the three bundles accidentally left behind were unearthed due to significant beach erosion.

That’s the problem I have with your conclusion. You assert !  I wonder if 377 would have an opinion as to,whether this even qualifies as actual circumstantial evidence ! Where is your proof that the bulk of Cooper’s loot ended up in A Singapore confidential numbered bank account ?? Also years later the three bundles ACCIDENTLY left behind were unearthed due to significant erosion ! Really ? You come to this conclusion how ?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on July 17, 2018, 09:18:49 PM
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EU, have you seen the news video with the FBI digging on Tbar?

Shuttter, if you have a link to the news video that was posted on YouTube at one point, please post it.

here,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQpYLiWID4g&frags=pl%2Cwn



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH5XlEwEIzE&frags=pl%2Cwn
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 17, 2018, 09:57:18 PM
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EU, have you seen the news video with the FBI digging on Tbar?

Shuttter, if you have a link to the news video that was posted on YouTube at one point, please post it.

here,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQpYLiWID4g&frags=pl%2Cwn



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH5XlEwEIzE&frags=pl%2Cwn

I love it. Finally THE videos.

The fragments that I saw being displayed by Himmelsbach I have no problem with. Yes, they were found near the original three bundles. Makes perfect sense to me.

The one interesting aspect is Himmelsbach's comment about the depth these shards were found. Himmelsbach said two or three feet. Fazio said about a foot or so. The trenches they filmed appeared to be one foot deep, maybe two feet in some spots. Nonetheless, to the extent that the money is found in the same "hole," for lack of a better term, I don't see where there is a conflict that destroys my "Sheridan dug a hole and buried the cash" theory.

Now, if you showed me a second hole, 20 feet away from the "money find" hole, that was three feet deep with shards at the bottom, that would be interesting. That said, even something like that is not problematic in as much as I believe there were multiple holes dug for the money, parachute rig and attache case (Again, I maintain that everything was buried by Sheridan then later retrieved). One hole strikes me as too large to dig with just a stick or whatever is available on the beach.

Regardless, well done indeed, "digging up" these videos.

Cheers!
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 17, 2018, 10:00:41 PM
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The bottom line is this:

Everything that was found was found on the first day of the FBI search and found around the original money find spot. I have read nothing that contradicts this point. More to the point, I have seen nothing credible that indicates money shards were "feet" deep.

That said, I would expect to find some shards near the waterline because the area the money was spotted had recently been washed over according to Brian Ingram. The bundles had essentially been unearthed at this point by way of erosion.

In conclusion, I assert that Sheridan Peterson retrieved all but a few of the bundles per my previous post. The bulk of the money ended up in a Singapore confidential numbered bank account. Years later the three bundles accidentally left behind were unearthed due to significant beach erosion.

That’s the problem I have with your conclusion. You assert !  I wonder if 377 would have an opinion as to,whether this even qualifies as actual circumstantial evidence ! Where is your proof that the bulk of Cooper’s loot ended up in A Singapore confidential numbered bank account ?? Also years later the three bundles ACCIDENTLY left behind were unearthed due to significant erosion ! Really ? You come to this conclusion how ?

Come on now, I think we can all agree that there has been significant erosion at Tena Bar...can't we?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Kermit on July 17, 2018, 10:33:44 PM
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The bottom line is this:

Everything that was found was found on the first day of the FBI search and found around the original money find spot. I have read nothing that contradicts this point. More to the point, I have seen nothing credible that indicates money shards were "feet" deep.

That said, I would expect to find some shards near the waterline because the area the money was spotted had recently been washed over according to Brian Ingram. The bundles had essentially been unearthed at this point by way of erosion.

In conclusion, I assert that Sheridan Peterson retrieved all but a few of the bundles per my previous post. The bulk of the money ended up in a Singapore confidential numbered bank account. Years later the three bundles accidentally left behind were unearthed due to significant beach erosion.

That’s the problem I have with your conclusion. You assert !  I wonder if 377 would have an opinion as to,whether this even qualifies as actual circumstantial evidence ! Where is your proof that the bulk of Cooper’s loot ended up in A Singapore confidential numbered bank account ?? Also years later the three bundles ACCIDENTLY left behind were unearthed due to significant erosion ! Really ? You come to this conclusion how ?

Come on now, I think we can all agree that there has been significant erosion at Tena Bar...can't we?
It’s the ACCIDENTLY assertion I have a problem with. Not only are you asserting Cooper planted the Money there BUT he ACCIDENTLY dropped at least 3 bundles there.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 18, 2018, 12:08:13 AM
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The bottom line is this:

Everything that was found was found on the first day of the FBI search and found around the original money find spot. I have read nothing that contradicts this point. More to the point, I have seen nothing credible that indicates money shards were "feet" deep.

That said, I would expect to find some shards near the waterline because the area the money was spotted had recently been washed over according to Brian Ingram. The bundles had essentially been unearthed at this point by way of erosion.


Location of agent W in red plaid shirt who spoke after finding shards is shown below, wherever that is! Shutter is good at identifying locations in these vids if he will comment?

Agent S says "Some of this money was found two and three feet deep in the sand." His location is south and lower than Agent W's position, closer to the water than Ag W and almost 35feet from the Ingram find.

Ingram was eight years old at the time! Brian Ingram's comment is only a recitation of what the Fazio said years later! When the Ingrams found the money they said it was a 'wet mass' - it had rained recently. 

Agent W red shirt appears to be in the Palmer trench which was dug from the side of the Ingram find down to the water line. He may be half the way down from the Ingram site toward the water, maybe 20 feet?

A comparison trench was dug south of the Ingram find. You can see digging in that area in the original video. The original avi provided by KATU was split into individual bmp frames. I have full sets for each of the two original vids.  My problem is I have no distance scales to apply to the images but it appears to me frags were found at some distances from the Ingram find which would contradict your statement. 

Has Sheridan ever commented about the money find?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 18, 2018, 12:14:11 AM
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The bottom line is this:

Everything that was found was found on the first day of the FBI search and found around the original money find spot. I have read nothing that contradicts this point. More to the point, I have seen nothing credible that indicates money shards were "feet" deep.

That said, I would expect to find some shards near the waterline because the area the money was spotted had recently been washed over according to Brian Ingram. The bundles had essentially been unearthed at this point by way of erosion.

In conclusion, I assert that Sheridan Peterson retrieved all but a few of the bundles per my previous post. The bulk of the money ended up in a Singapore confidential numbered bank account. Years later the three bundles accidentally left behind were unearthed due to significant beach erosion.

That’s the problem I have with your conclusion. You assert !  I wonder if 377 would have an opinion as to,whether this even qualifies as actual circumstantial evidence ! Where is your proof that the bulk of Cooper’s loot ended up in A Singapore confidential numbered bank account ?? Also years later the three bundles ACCIDENTLY left behind were unearthed due to significant erosion ! Really ? You come to this conclusion how ?

Come on now, I think we can all agree that there has been significant erosion at Tena Bar...can't we?
It’s the ACCIDENTLY assertion I have a problem with. Not only are you asserting Cooper planted the Money there BUT he ACCIDENTLY dropped at least 3 bundles there.
I'm not sure what the problem is with my assertion. After all, it's a theory. I fully expect others to disagree with me and challenge me. That's a healthy part of the process if one is intellectually honest.

To be clear, I do not think Cooper "planted" the money. Rather, I think he temporarily buried the money and accidentally left a few bundles behind as described in my report and previous post.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 18, 2018, 12:31:46 AM
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The bottom line is this:

Everything that was found was found on the first day of the FBI search and found around the original money find spot. I have read nothing that contradicts this point. More to the point, I have seen nothing credible that indicates money shards were "feet" deep.

That said, I would expect to find some shards near the waterline because the area the money was spotted had recently been washed over according to Brian Ingram. The bundles had essentially been unearthed at this point by way of erosion.


Location of agent W in red plaid shirt who spoke after finding shards is shown below, wherever that is! Shutter is good at identifying locations in these vids if he will comment?

Agent S says "Some of this money was found two and three feet deep in the sand." His location is south and lower than Agent W's position, closer to the water than Ag W and almost 35feet from the Ingram find.

Ingram was eight years old at the time! Brian Ingram's comment is only a recitation of what the Fazio said years later! When the Ingrams found the money they said it was a 'wet mass' - it had rained recently. 

Agent W red shirt appears to be in the Palmer trench which was dug from the side of the Ingram find down to the water line. He may be half the way down from the Ingram site toward the water, maybe 20 feet?

A comparison trench was dug south of the Ingram find. You can see digging in that area in the original video. The original avi provided by KATU was split into individual bmp frames. I have full sets for each of the two original vids.  My problem is I have no distance scales to apply to the images but it appears to me frags were found at some distances from the Ingram find which would contradict your statement. 

Has Sheridan ever commented about the money find?

Looking at edited footage and making assumptions thereon to establish precise spots that shards were found that contradict statements from the Fazio brothers is not something I feel comfortable doing. Such moves are highly subjective and likely flawed.

I thought Agent S was Himmelsbach, that said I may be wrong. Nonetheless, my above post explains my thoughts about the "2-3 foot" comment.

Sheridan has said nothing to me about the money find...and I have asked. He did tell me once that Cooper skyjacked the jet for the money, not as a political statement or something along those lines...so presumably he wouldn't intentionally leave money on Tena Bar (of course, given my perspective regarding Sheridan).
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 18, 2018, 01:06:59 AM
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The bottom line is this:

Everything that was found was found on the first day of the FBI search and found around the original money find spot. I have read nothing that contradicts this point. More to the point, I have seen nothing credible that indicates money shards were "feet" deep.

That said, I would expect to find some shards near the waterline because the area the money was spotted had recently been washed over according to Brian Ingram. The bundles had essentially been unearthed at this point by way of erosion.


Location of agent W in red plaid shirt who spoke after finding shards is shown below, wherever that is! Shutter is good at identifying locations in these vids if he will comment?

Agent S says "Some of this money was found two and three feet deep in the sand." His location is south and lower than Agent W's position, closer to the water than Ag W and almost 35feet from the Ingram find.

Ingram was eight years old at the time! Brian Ingram's comment is only a recitation of what the Fazio said years later! When the Ingrams found the money they said it was a 'wet mass' - it had rained recently. 

Agent W red shirt appears to be in the Palmer trench which was dug from the side of the Ingram find down to the water line. He may be half the way down from the Ingram site toward the water, maybe 20 feet?

A comparison trench was dug south of the Ingram find. You can see digging in that area in the original video. The original avi provided by KATU was split into individual bmp frames. I have full sets for each of the two original vids.  My problem is I have no distance scales to apply to the images but it appears to me frags were found at some distances from the Ingram find which would contradict your statement. 

Has Sheridan ever commented about the money find?

Looking at edited footage and making assumptions thereon to establish precise spots that shards were found that contradict statements from the Fazio brothers is not something I feel comfortable doing. Such moves are highly subjective and likely flawed.

I thought Agent S was Himmelsbach, that said I may be wrong. Nonetheless, my above post explains my thoughts about the "2-3 foot" comment.

Sheridan has said nothing to me about the money find...and I have asked. He did tell me once that Cooper skyjacked the jet for the money, not as a political statement or something along those lines...so presumably he wouldn't intentionally leave money on Tena Bar (of course, given my perspective regarding Sheridan).

Agent S is Schreuder in the video.

I want to go back to the Palmer report - will be back.... Im curious about Palmer's two trenches and his measurements vis-a-vis strata. Keep in mind Palmer's second comparison trench was south of his Ingram find trench. I want to check the measurements he made - this might be a clue as to the erosion pattern that was active at Tina Bar. 

Very quickly Palmer reported a cross bedded ;ayer below the upper active layer in which the money was found. Cross bedded layers take time to lay down - they are a key to water level periods and erosion because they are the product of those forces. I need to check his cross bedded layer at T1 vs T2 south. Ill be back - 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 18, 2018, 02:03:28 AM
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The bottom line is this:

Everything that was found was found on the first day of the FBI search and found around the original money find spot. I have read nothing that contradicts this point. More to the point, I have seen nothing credible that indicates money shards were "feet" deep.

That said, I would expect to find some shards near the waterline because the area the money was spotted had recently been washed over according to Brian Ingram. The bundles had essentially been unearthed at this point by way of erosion.


Location of agent W in red plaid shirt who spoke after finding shards is shown below, wherever that is! Shutter is good at identifying locations in these vids if he will comment?

Agent S says "Some of this money was found two and three feet deep in the sand." His location is south and lower than Agent W's position, closer to the water than Ag W and almost 35feet from the Ingram find.

Ingram was eight years old at the time! Brian Ingram's comment is only a recitation of what the Fazio said years later! When the Ingrams found the money they said it was a 'wet mass' - it had rained recently. 

Agent W red shirt appears to be in the Palmer trench which was dug from the side of the Ingram find down to the water line. He may be half the way down from the Ingram site toward the water, maybe 20 feet?

A comparison trench was dug south of the Ingram find. You can see digging in that area in the original video. The original avi provided by KATU was split into individual bmp frames. I have full sets for each of the two original vids.  My problem is I have no distance scales to apply to the images but it appears to me frags were found at some distances from the Ingram find which would contradict your statement. 

Has Sheridan ever commented about the money find?

Looking at edited footage and making assumptions thereon to establish precise spots that shards were found that contradict statements from the Fazio brothers is not something I feel comfortable doing. Such moves are highly subjective and likely flawed.

I thought Agent S was Himmelsbach, that said I may be wrong. Nonetheless, my above post explains my thoughts about the "2-3 foot" comment.

Sheridan has said nothing to me about the money find...and I have asked. He did tell me once that Cooper skyjacked the jet for the money, not as a political statement or something along those lines...so presumably he wouldn't intentionally leave money on Tena Bar (of course, given my perspective regarding Sheridan).

I reviewed the Palmer report. He says in a note that the clay lump dredging layer 'ranged from a depth of only two feet where the money was found' to 'approximately four feet, 25 yards from the money site'. That would be south of the Ingram site probably in Palmer second comparison trench.  If Palmer is correct, the same strata changed in thickness and elevation or depth as one moved "away" from the Ingram site to different locations on the beach.

This offers the possibility that Palmer found strata of the same age or origin occurring at different elevations or depths as one moved to different locations on the beach. In other words money could be occurring in the same strata but at different depths at different locations. Strata yielding money could all be of the same date regardless of being at the surface at 40ft from the water line, or at 3ft below the surface at some other location. (all in the same strata line)  We assume all money came from the same date in strata.

Does this make sense?   

In other words the strata are not linear in thickness and depth across the entire beachhead. For one thing erosion is not equal in all places on the beachhead. The spreading of dredge spoils in '74 was not equal along the whole beach. The upper active layer at the Ingram find may be 4-8 inches thick whereas south by 60 yards it could be 2" thick, and 26 feet east towards the shoreline it could be 'nonexistent'. The previous assumption was that the strata were fairly linear at Tina Bar but Palmer's note puts that in question. Unequal erosion alone in different areas of the beach is going to leave a mixed strata elevation/depth picture.

Palmer also notes that his crossbedded layer below the upper active layer is of different thicknesses and depths at different locations on the beach he examined - that only strengths everything said above.

I will leave it at that. This is enough to digest!       

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: sry828 on July 18, 2018, 10:37:21 AM
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Now, if you showed me a second hole, 20 feet away from the "money find" hole, that was three feet deep with shards at the bottom, that would be interesting. That said, even something like that is not problematic in as much as I believe there were multiple holes dug for the money, parachute rig and attache case (Again, I maintain that everything was buried by Sheridan then later retrieved). One hole strikes me as too large to dig with just a stick or whatever is available on the beach.


Do you think Cooper would have been comfortable spending the amount of time it takes to dig multiple holes that would be deep enough for the items in them not to be noticed?  I understand the need to get rid of evidence, but I think that it's something that has to be balanced against the added risk of being noticed by someone.  If it was me, I would think that I would wrap the chute around the bank bag, and bury that.  Then I'd fill the briefcase with some of the displaced earth from the digging, put a stone (or whatever I could find) in the rig for the chute, and throw both into the water.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 18, 2018, 11:19:54 AM
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Now, if you showed me a second hole, 20 feet away from the "money find" hole, that was three feet deep with shards at the bottom, that would be interesting. That said, even something like that is not problematic in as much as I believe there were multiple holes dug for the money, parachute rig and attache case (Again, I maintain that everything was buried by Sheridan then later retrieved). One hole strikes me as too large to dig with just a stick or whatever is available on the beach.


Do you think Cooper would have been comfortable spending the amount of time it takes to dig multiple holes that would be deep enough for the items in them not to be noticed?  I understand the need to get rid of evidence, but I think that it's something that has to be balanced against the added risk of being noticed by someone.  If it was me, I would think that I would wrap the chute around the bank bag, and bury that.  Then I'd fill the briefcase with some of the displaced earth from the digging, put a stone (or whatever I could find) in the rig for the chute, and throw both into the water.

This is a great question and one that brings up the whole notion of what actually took place. Put another way, something took place, that much is certain. We know that absolutely nothing that Cooper jumped with has been found outside of the cash discovered on Tena Bar.

How I would handle a situation like this given the realities may be different than Cooper. More to the point, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump over the outskirts of Seattle. After all, that would explain a lot in terms of no flight path directives, his wearing a suit and loafers, his Plan B if he had to abort the skyjack for some reason and simply deplane in Seattle to try another time, etc . However, Cooper got delayed with the unbound money and airstairs. Therefore, I maintain that he ultimately jumped and landed very near Tena Bar. Needless to say, at this point Cooper would have to improvise.

It makes sense that he would bury everything--money, rig, attache case and reserve in the sand. All things considered the sand on the beach would be relatively easy to dig and then disguise the dig site. Also, as fate would have it, he landed at night in a secluded area that is unlikely to have anyone else around. So whether he digs one large hole or multiple holes (my choice) to bury the items I don't really know but I'm sure he had plenty of uninterrupted time.

Finally, after a period of time, be it one day, one week, one month, one year, whatever, he retrieves the items, again probably at night, and moves on.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 18, 2018, 12:33:28 PM
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Now, if you showed me a second hole, 20 feet away from the "money find" hole, that was three feet deep with shards at the bottom, that would be interesting. That said, even something like that is not problematic in as much as I believe there were multiple holes dug for the money, parachute rig and attache case (Again, I maintain that everything was buried by Sheridan then later retrieved). One hole strikes me as too large to dig with just a stick or whatever is available on the beach.


Do you think Cooper would have been comfortable spending the amount of time it takes to dig multiple holes that would be deep enough for the items in them not to be noticed?  I understand the need to get rid of evidence, but I think that it's something that has to be balanced against the added risk of being noticed by someone.  If it was me, I would think that I would wrap the chute around the bank bag, and bury that.  Then I'd fill the briefcase with some of the displaced earth from the digging, put a stone (or whatever I could find) in the rig for the chute, and throw both into the water.

This is a great question and one that brings up the whole notion of what actually took place. Put another way, something took place, that much is certain. We know that absolutely nothing that Cooper jumped with has been found outside of the cash discovered on Tena Bar.

How I would handle a situation like this given the realities may be different than Cooper. More to the point, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump over the outskirts of Seattle. After all, that would explain a lot in terms of no flight path directives, his wearing a suit and loafers, his Plan B if he had to abort the skyjack for some reason and simply deplane in Seattle to try another time, etc . However, Cooper got delayed with the unbound money and airstairs. Therefore, I maintain that he ultimately jumped and landed very near Tena Bar. Needless to say, at this point Cooper would have to improvise.

It makes sense that he would bury everything--money, rig, attache case and reserve in the sand. All things considered the sand on the beach would be relatively easy to dig and then disguise the dig site. Also, as fate would have it, he landed at night in a secluded area that is unlikely to have anyone else around. So whether he digs one large hole or multiple holes (my choice) to bury the items I don't really know but I'm sure he had plenty of uninterrupted time.

Finally, after a period of time, be it one day, one week, one month, one year, whatever, he retrieves the items, again probably at night, and moves on.

All on a public fishing bar regularly used dusk til dawn every day! Cooper must have been a fast worker.

I should ask my class: how would YOU be a star? Maybe we can re-write astrophysics texts from that! 

I would first become a turtle, then mount a cherry milk shake on my back, and fly through the ether - screw atoms and all that other FAKE NEWS STUFF!

In addition to everything else, Cooper was the Invisible Man! Add that to the profile!
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: sry828 on July 18, 2018, 01:25:18 PM
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Now, if you showed me a second hole, 20 feet away from the "money find" hole, that was three feet deep with shards at the bottom, that would be interesting. That said, even something like that is not problematic in as much as I believe there were multiple holes dug for the money, parachute rig and attache case (Again, I maintain that everything was buried by Sheridan then later retrieved). One hole strikes me as too large to dig with just a stick or whatever is available on the beach.


Do you think Cooper would have been comfortable spending the amount of time it takes to dig multiple holes that would be deep enough for the items in them not to be noticed?  I understand the need to get rid of evidence, but I think that it's something that has to be balanced against the added risk of being noticed by someone.  If it was me, I would think that I would wrap the chute around the bank bag, and bury that.  Then I'd fill the briefcase with some of the displaced earth from the digging, put a stone (or whatever I could find) in the rig for the chute, and throw both into the water.

This is a great question and one that brings up the whole notion of what actually took place. Put another way, something took place, that much is certain. We know that absolutely nothing that Cooper jumped with has been found outside of the cash discovered on Tena Bar.

How I would handle a situation like this given the realities may be different than Cooper. More to the point, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump over the outskirts of Seattle. After all, that would explain a lot in terms of no flight path directives, his wearing a suit and loafers, his Plan B if he had to abort the skyjack for some reason and simply deplane in Seattle to try another time, etc . However, Cooper got delayed with the unbound money and airstairs. Therefore, I maintain that he ultimately jumped and landed very near Tena Bar. Needless to say, at this point Cooper would have to improvise.

It makes sense that he would bury everything--money, rig, attache case and reserve in the sand. All things considered the sand on the beach would be relatively easy to dig and then disguise the dig site. Also, as fate would have it, he landed at night in a secluded area that is unlikely to have anyone else around. So whether he digs one large hole or multiple holes (my choice) to bury the items I don't really know but I'm sure he had plenty of uninterrupted time.

Finally, after a period of time, be it one day, one week, one month, one year, whatever, he retrieves the items, again probably at night, and moves on.

I find your idea that he jumped later than intended interesting.  Is your thought that he would have made a contingency plan(s) for jumping at other locations later in the flight, or that he was able to recognize that the plane was in a position for him to land near the Columbia, or that he had some other way of locating the Columbia?  I'm figuring that burying on a beach would have been necessary, as I'm guessing the ground is frozen solid in most places in Washington during late November.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 18, 2018, 01:47:54 PM
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Now, if you showed me a second hole, 20 feet away from the "money find" hole, that was three feet deep with shards at the bottom, that would be interesting. That said, even something like that is not problematic in as much as I believe there were multiple holes dug for the money, parachute rig and attache case (Again, I maintain that everything was buried by Sheridan then later retrieved). One hole strikes me as too large to dig with just a stick or whatever is available on the beach.


Do you think Cooper would have been comfortable spending the amount of time it takes to dig multiple holes that would be deep enough for the items in them not to be noticed?  I understand the need to get rid of evidence, but I think that it's something that has to be balanced against the added risk of being noticed by someone.  If it was me, I would think that I would wrap the chute around the bank bag, and bury that.  Then I'd fill the briefcase with some of the displaced earth from the digging, put a stone (or whatever I could find) in the rig for the chute, and throw both into the water.

This is a great question and one that brings up the whole notion of what actually took place. Put another way, something took place, that much is certain. We know that absolutely nothing that Cooper jumped with has been found outside of the cash discovered on Tena Bar.

How I would handle a situation like this given the realities may be different than Cooper. More to the point, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump over the outskirts of Seattle. After all, that would explain a lot in terms of no flight path directives, his wearing a suit and loafers, his Plan B if he had to abort the skyjack for some reason and simply deplane in Seattle to try another time, etc . However, Cooper got delayed with the unbound money and airstairs. Therefore, I maintain that he ultimately jumped and landed very near Tena Bar. Needless to say, at this point Cooper would have to improvise.

It makes sense that he would bury everything--money, rig, attache case and reserve in the sand. All things considered the sand on the beach would be relatively easy to dig and then disguise the dig site. Also, as fate would have it, he landed at night in a secluded area that is unlikely to have anyone else around. So whether he digs one large hole or multiple holes (my choice) to bury the items I don't really know but I'm sure he had plenty of uninterrupted time.

Finally, after a period of time, be it one day, one week, one month, one year, whatever, he retrieves the items, again probably at night, and moves on.

I find your idea that he jumped later than intended interesting.  Is your thought that he would have made a contingency plan(s) for jumping at other locations later in the flight, or that he was able to recognize that the plane was in a position for him to land near the Columbia, or that he had some other way of locating the Columbia?  I'm figuring that burying on a beach would have been necessary, as I'm guessing the ground is frozen solid in most places in Washington during late November.

It's important to note that my thoughts are based upon my belief that Sheridan Peterson was Cooper.

I do not believe he had a contingency plan for jumping outside of the Seattle area. Nonetheless, as that jump window quickly closed and the jet headed south he knew he had to jump somewhere. Being familiar with the region he would have known that within a brief period of time he would be very near the Portland/Vancouver area. Presumably he considered the outskirts of Portland as a suitable alternative to the outskirts of Seattle.

By the way, the ground around that area rarely freezes. Portland and Seattle have a maritime climate which means temps are usually above freezing even in the winter. That said, digging on a beach will be much easier than digging somewhere else.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: sry828 on July 18, 2018, 02:05:40 PM
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Now, if you showed me a second hole, 20 feet away from the "money find" hole, that was three feet deep with shards at the bottom, that would be interesting. That said, even something like that is not problematic in as much as I believe there were multiple holes dug for the money, parachute rig and attache case (Again, I maintain that everything was buried by Sheridan then later retrieved). One hole strikes me as too large to dig with just a stick or whatever is available on the beach.


Do you think Cooper would have been comfortable spending the amount of time it takes to dig multiple holes that would be deep enough for the items in them not to be noticed?  I understand the need to get rid of evidence, but I think that it's something that has to be balanced against the added risk of being noticed by someone.  If it was me, I would think that I would wrap the chute around the bank bag, and bury that.  Then I'd fill the briefcase with some of the displaced earth from the digging, put a stone (or whatever I could find) in the rig for the chute, and throw both into the water.

This is a great question and one that brings up the whole notion of what actually took place. Put another way, something took place, that much is certain. We know that absolutely nothing that Cooper jumped with has been found outside of the cash discovered on Tena Bar.

How I would handle a situation like this given the realities may be different than Cooper. More to the point, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump over the outskirts of Seattle. After all, that would explain a lot in terms of no flight path directives, his wearing a suit and loafers, his Plan B if he had to abort the skyjack for some reason and simply deplane in Seattle to try another time, etc . However, Cooper got delayed with the unbound money and airstairs. Therefore, I maintain that he ultimately jumped and landed very near Tena Bar. Needless to say, at this point Cooper would have to improvise.

It makes sense that he would bury everything--money, rig, attache case and reserve in the sand. All things considered the sand on the beach would be relatively easy to dig and then disguise the dig site. Also, as fate would have it, he landed at night in a secluded area that is unlikely to have anyone else around. So whether he digs one large hole or multiple holes (my choice) to bury the items I don't really know but I'm sure he had plenty of uninterrupted time.

Finally, after a period of time, be it one day, one week, one month, one year, whatever, he retrieves the items, again probably at night, and moves on.

I find your idea that he jumped later than intended interesting.  Is your thought that he would have made a contingency plan(s) for jumping at other locations later in the flight, or that he was able to recognize that the plane was in a position for him to land near the Columbia, or that he had some other way of locating the Columbia?  I'm figuring that burying on a beach would have been necessary, as I'm guessing the ground is frozen solid in most places in Washington during late November.

It's important to note that my thoughts are based upon my belief that Sheridan Peterson was Cooper.

I do not believe he had a contingency plan for jumping outside of the Seattle area. Nonetheless, as that jump window quickly closed and the jet headed south he knew he had to jump somewhere. Being familiar with the region he would have known that within a brief period of time he would be very near the Portland/Vancouver area. Presumably he considered the outskirts of Portland as a suitable alternative to the outskirts of Seattle.

By the way, the ground around that area rarely freezes. Portland and Seattle have a maritime climate which means temps are usually above freezing even in the winter. That said, digging on a beach will be much easier than digging somewhere else.

That's good to know.  I grew up in the northeast, and haven't been anywhere on the west coast north of San Francisco.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: MeyerLouie on July 18, 2018, 07:37:30 PM
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EU, have you seen the news video with the FBI digging on Tbar?

Shuttter, if you have a link to the news video that was posted on YouTube at one point, please post it.

here,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQpYLiWID4g&frags=pl%2Cwn



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH5XlEwEIzE&frags=pl%2Cwn

I haven't seen these videos in a long while, thanks FLYJACK for finding and sharing.  After watching these videos, I was noting the background beachfront.  It appears to me the erosion has been significant.  That waterfront doesn't have all that plentiful sand on a big beach anymore.  Taking tide levels into account, it seems to me the shoreline has eroded significantly.  Some of that treeline is under water now.  One of the trees I have been observing may be the one I saw in the video.  It was one of the trees on that big sandy beach.  If it's the same tree, its base is under water now.  From what I have observed, all that wonderful, lush sand in the video is gone.

Meyer
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: MeyerLouie on July 18, 2018, 08:46:31 PM
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Now, if you showed me a second hole, 20 feet away from the "money find" hole, that was three feet deep with shards at the bottom, that would be interesting. That said, even something like that is not problematic in as much as I believe there were multiple holes dug for the money, parachute rig and attache case (Again, I maintain that everything was buried by Sheridan then later retrieved). One hole strikes me as too large to dig with just a stick or whatever is available on the beach.


Do you think Cooper would have been comfortable spending the amount of time it takes to dig multiple holes that would be deep enough for the items in them not to be noticed?  I understand the need to get rid of evidence, but I think that it's something that has to be balanced against the added risk of being noticed by someone.  If it was me, I would think that I would wrap the chute around the bank bag, and bury that.  Then I'd fill the briefcase with some of the displaced earth from the digging, put a stone (or whatever I could find) in the rig for the chute, and throw both into the water.

This is a great question and one that brings up the whole notion of what actually took place. Put another way, something took place, that much is certain. We know that absolutely nothing that Cooper jumped with has been found outside of the cash discovered on Tena Bar.

How I would handle a situation like this given the realities may be different than Cooper. More to the point, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump over the outskirts of Seattle. After all, that would explain a lot in terms of no flight path directives, his wearing a suit and loafers, his Plan B if he had to abort the skyjack for some reason and simply deplane in Seattle to try another time, etc . However, Cooper got delayed with the unbound money and airstairs. Therefore, I maintain that he ultimately jumped and landed very near Tena Bar. Needless to say, at this point Cooper would have to improvise.

It makes sense that he would bury everything--money, rig, attache case and reserve in the sand. All things considered the sand on the beach would be relatively easy to dig and then disguise the dig site. Also, as fate would have it, he landed at night in a secluded area that is unlikely to have anyone else around. So whether he digs one large hole or multiple holes (my choice) to bury the items I don't really know but I'm sure he had plenty of uninterrupted time.

Finally, after a period of time, be it one day, one week, one month, one year, whatever, he retrieves the items, again probably at night, and moves on.

He digs holes and buries the goods?  I guess he must have dug a couple of trenches too, before daylight, and buried all those money shards -- he sprinkled them about like stardust, covered 'em all up, then caught the magic carpet out of town just before daybreak.  I'm all in....

Meyer
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Lynn on July 22, 2018, 01:40:52 PM
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Now, if you showed me a second hole, 20 feet away from the "money find" hole, that was three feet deep with shards at the bottom, that would be interesting. That said, even something like that is not problematic in as much as I believe there were multiple holes dug for the money, parachute rig and attache case (Again, I maintain that everything was buried by Sheridan then later retrieved). One hole strikes me as too large to dig with just a stick or whatever is available on the beach.


Do you think Cooper would have been comfortable spending the amount of time it takes to dig multiple holes that would be deep enough for the items in them not to be noticed?  I understand the need to get rid of evidence, but I think that it's something that has to be balanced against the added risk of being noticed by someone.  If it was me, I would think that I would wrap the chute around the bank bag, and bury that.  Then I'd fill the briefcase with some of the displaced earth from the digging, put a stone (or whatever I could find) in the rig for the chute, and throw both into the water.

This is a great question and one that brings up the whole notion of what actually took place. Put another way, something took place, that much is certain. We know that absolutely nothing that Cooper jumped with has been found outside of the cash discovered on Tena Bar.

How I would handle a situation like this given the realities may be different than Cooper. More to the point, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump over the outskirts of Seattle. After all, that would explain a lot in terms of no flight path directives, his wearing a suit and loafers, his Plan B if he had to abort the skyjack for some reason and simply deplane in Seattle to try another time, etc . However, Cooper got delayed with the unbound money and airstairs. Therefore, I maintain that he ultimately jumped and landed very near Tena Bar. Needless to say, at this point Cooper would have to improvise.

It makes sense that he would bury everything--money, rig, attache case and reserve in the sand. All things considered the sand on the beach would be relatively easy to dig and then disguise the dig site. Also, as fate would have it, he landed at night in a secluded area that is unlikely to have anyone else around. So whether he digs one large hole or multiple holes (my choice) to bury the items I don't really know but I'm sure he had plenty of uninterrupted time.

Finally, after a period of time, be it one day, one week, one month, one year, whatever, he retrieves the items, again probably at night, and moves on.

All on a public fishing bar regularly used dusk til dawn every day! Cooper must have been a fast worker.

I should ask my class: how would YOU be a star? Maybe we can re-write astrophysics texts from that! 

I would first become a turtle, then mount a cherry milk shake on my back, and fly through the ether - screw atoms and all that other FAKE NEWS STUFF!

In addition to everything else, Cooper was the Invisible Man! Add that to the profile!
I very much doubt anyone was doing a fishing trip the day of Thanksgiving.  :rofl:  At any rate, it's exceedingly difficult to explain Tina/Tena Bar convincingly with any theory, but EU's makes as much sense as any. And honestly, end of the day, the Tena Bar money proves nothing about anything - Cooper's survival, who he was, where he or his body went - and an inordinate amount of time is spent debating it. The bottom line is, it got there somehow, and somebody was D.B. Cooper. I have seen nothing yet to indicate that SP isn't our guy apart from eye colour. (Have been playing a game whereby I try to remember people's eye colours after I talk to them. So far I'm not batting high, and I'm betting most people don't. It's one of the least dependable witness items, and one of the most influenced by emotions - threatening people's eyes are often perceived as dark, whether they are or not.) Everything else fits, right down to the non-alibi. Would be happy to see more analysis of this suspect, but am not expecting any suspect to be vetted via the Tena Bar labyrinth.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 22, 2018, 02:10:38 PM
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Now, if you showed me a second hole, 20 feet away from the "money find" hole, that was three feet deep with shards at the bottom, that would be interesting. That said, even something like that is not problematic in as much as I believe there were multiple holes dug for the money, parachute rig and attache case (Again, I maintain that everything was buried by Sheridan then later retrieved). One hole strikes me as too large to dig with just a stick or whatever is available on the beach.


Do you think Cooper would have been comfortable spending the amount of time it takes to dig multiple holes that would be deep enough for the items in them not to be noticed?  I understand the need to get rid of evidence, but I think that it's something that has to be balanced against the added risk of being noticed by someone.  If it was me, I would think that I would wrap the chute around the bank bag, and bury that.  Then I'd fill the briefcase with some of the displaced earth from the digging, put a stone (or whatever I could find) in the rig for the chute, and throw both into the water.

This is a great question and one that brings up the whole notion of what actually took place. Put another way, something took place, that much is certain. We know that absolutely nothing that Cooper jumped with has been found outside of the cash discovered on Tena Bar.

How I would handle a situation like this given the realities may be different than Cooper. More to the point, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump over the outskirts of Seattle. After all, that would explain a lot in terms of no flight path directives, his wearing a suit and loafers, his Plan B if he had to abort the skyjack for some reason and simply deplane in Seattle to try another time, etc . However, Cooper got delayed with the unbound money and airstairs. Therefore, I maintain that he ultimately jumped and landed very near Tena Bar. Needless to say, at this point Cooper would have to improvise.

It makes sense that he would bury everything--money, rig, attache case and reserve in the sand. All things considered the sand on the beach would be relatively easy to dig and then disguise the dig site. Also, as fate would have it, he landed at night in a secluded area that is unlikely to have anyone else around. So whether he digs one large hole or multiple holes (my choice) to bury the items I don't really know but I'm sure he had plenty of uninterrupted time.

Finally, after a period of time, be it one day, one week, one month, one year, whatever, he retrieves the items, again probably at night, and moves on.

All on a public fishing bar regularly used dusk til dawn every day! Cooper must have been a fast worker.

I should ask my class: how would YOU be a star? Maybe we can re-write astrophysics texts from that! 

I would first become a turtle, then mount a cherry milk shake on my back, and fly through the ether - screw atoms and all that other FAKE NEWS STUFF!

In addition to everything else, Cooper was the Invisible Man! Add that to the profile!
I very much doubt anyone was doing a fishing trip the day of Thanksgiving.  :rofl:  At any rate, it's exceedingly difficult to explain Tina/Tena Bar convincingly with any theory, but EU's makes as much sense as any. And honestly, end of the day, the Tena Bar money proves nothing about anything - Cooper's survival, who he was, where he or his body went - and an inordinate amount of time is spent debating it. The bottom line is, it got there somehow, and somebody was D.B. Cooper. I have seen nothing yet to indicate that SP isn't our guy apart from eye colour. (Have been playing a game whereby I try to remember people's eye colours after I talk to them. So far I'm not batting high, and I'm betting most people don't. It's one of the least dependable witness items, and one of the most influenced by emotions - threatening people's eyes are often perceived as dark, whether they are or not.) Everything else fits, right down to the non-alibi. Would be happy to see more analysis of this suspect, but am not expecting any suspect to be vetted via the Tena Bar labyrinth.

You are correct.

As I read all of the comments and theories posted here, I consider them through the lens of my knowledge regarding Sheridan Peterson. I have seen nothing that exonerates the man.

Frankly, I don't care what the person's name is. When the number of items that point to one person starts to build to a magnitude similar to that of Sheridan, intellectual honesty dictates that I listen to that evidence. In the much more graceful words of Sherlock Holmes, “How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?”
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on July 22, 2018, 02:47:08 PM
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Now, if you showed me a second hole, 20 feet away from the "money find" hole, that was three feet deep with shards at the bottom, that would be interesting. That said, even something like that is not problematic in as much as I believe there were multiple holes dug for the money, parachute rig and attache case (Again, I maintain that everything was buried by Sheridan then later retrieved). One hole strikes me as too large to dig with just a stick or whatever is available on the beach.


Do you think Cooper would have been comfortable spending the amount of time it takes to dig multiple holes that would be deep enough for the items in them not to be noticed?  I understand the need to get rid of evidence, but I think that it's something that has to be balanced against the added risk of being noticed by someone.  If it was me, I would think that I would wrap the chute around the bank bag, and bury that.  Then I'd fill the briefcase with some of the displaced earth from the digging, put a stone (or whatever I could find) in the rig for the chute, and throw both into the water.

This is a great question and one that brings up the whole notion of what actually took place. Put another way, something took place, that much is certain. We know that absolutely nothing that Cooper jumped with has been found outside of the cash discovered on Tena Bar.

How I would handle a situation like this given the realities may be different than Cooper. More to the point, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump over the outskirts of Seattle. After all, that would explain a lot in terms of no flight path directives, his wearing a suit and loafers, his Plan B if he had to abort the skyjack for some reason and simply deplane in Seattle to try another time, etc . However, Cooper got delayed with the unbound money and airstairs. Therefore, I maintain that he ultimately jumped and landed very near Tena Bar. Needless to say, at this point Cooper would have to improvise.

It makes sense that he would bury everything--money, rig, attache case and reserve in the sand. All things considered the sand on the beach would be relatively easy to dig and then disguise the dig site. Also, as fate would have it, he landed at night in a secluded area that is unlikely to have anyone else around. So whether he digs one large hole or multiple holes (my choice) to bury the items I don't really know but I'm sure he had plenty of uninterrupted time.

Finally, after a period of time, be it one day, one week, one month, one year, whatever, he retrieves the items, again probably at night, and moves on.

All on a public fishing bar regularly used dusk til dawn every day! Cooper must have been a fast worker.

I should ask my class: how would YOU be a star? Maybe we can re-write astrophysics texts from that! 

I would first become a turtle, then mount a cherry milk shake on my back, and fly through the ether - screw atoms and all that other FAKE NEWS STUFF!

In addition to everything else, Cooper was the Invisible Man! Add that to the profile!
I very much doubt anyone was doing a fishing trip the day of Thanksgiving.  :rofl:  At any rate, it's exceedingly difficult to explain Tina/Tena Bar convincingly with any theory, but EU's makes as much sense as any. And honestly, end of the day, the Tena Bar money proves nothing about anything - Cooper's survival, who he was, where he or his body went - and an inordinate amount of time is spent debating it. The bottom line is, it got there somehow, and somebody was D.B. Cooper. I have seen nothing yet to indicate that SP isn't our guy apart from eye colour. (Have been playing a game whereby I try to remember people's eye colours after I talk to them. So far I'm not batting high, and I'm betting most people don't. It's one of the least dependable witness items, and one of the most influenced by emotions - threatening people's eyes are often perceived as dark, whether they are or not.) Everything else fits, right down to the non-alibi. Would be happy to see more analysis of this suspect, but am not expecting any suspect to be vetted via the Tena Bar labyrinth.

You are correct in "not expecting any suspect to be vetted via the Tena Bar labyrinth."  However, you are mistaken in saying that the money at Tina Bar is difficult to explain.  I'll grant you that the fragments at different levels cannot be explained at the present time.

Tina Bar is very easy to explain if you take into account the topography there, the actual aircraft flight path, the time of Cooper's jump, the location where the placard from the aft stairs was found, the fact that Cooper has not been heard from since the jump, and every other actual fact known about the matter.  You have to take all of these facts together to come up with a scenario for the money getting to the location where it was found.
 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Lynn on July 22, 2018, 03:00:34 PM
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Now, if you showed me a second hole, 20 feet away from the "money find" hole, that was three feet deep with shards at the bottom, that would be interesting. That said, even something like that is not problematic in as much as I believe there were multiple holes dug for the money, parachute rig and attache case (Again, I maintain that everything was buried by Sheridan then later retrieved). One hole strikes me as too large to dig with just a stick or whatever is available on the beach.


Do you think Cooper would have been comfortable spending the amount of time it takes to dig multiple holes that would be deep enough for the items in them not to be noticed?  I understand the need to get rid of evidence, but I think that it's something that has to be balanced against the added risk of being noticed by someone.  If it was me, I would think that I would wrap the chute around the bank bag, and bury that.  Then I'd fill the briefcase with some of the displaced earth from the digging, put a stone (or whatever I could find) in the rig for the chute, and throw both into the water.

This is a great question and one that brings up the whole notion of what actually took place. Put another way, something took place, that much is certain. We know that absolutely nothing that Cooper jumped with has been found outside of the cash discovered on Tena Bar.

How I would handle a situation like this given the realities may be different than Cooper. More to the point, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump over the outskirts of Seattle. After all, that would explain a lot in terms of no flight path directives, his wearing a suit and loafers, his Plan B if he had to abort the skyjack for some reason and simply deplane in Seattle to try another time, etc . However, Cooper got delayed with the unbound money and airstairs. Therefore, I maintain that he ultimately jumped and landed very near Tena Bar. Needless to say, at this point Cooper would have to improvise.

It makes sense that he would bury everything--money, rig, attache case and reserve in the sand. All things considered the sand on the beach would be relatively easy to dig and then disguise the dig site. Also, as fate would have it, he landed at night in a secluded area that is unlikely to have anyone else around. So whether he digs one large hole or multiple holes (my choice) to bury the items I don't really know but I'm sure he had plenty of uninterrupted time.

Finally, after a period of time, be it one day, one week, one month, one year, whatever, he retrieves the items, again probably at night, and moves on.

All on a public fishing bar regularly used dusk til dawn every day! Cooper must have been a fast worker.

I should ask my class: how would YOU be a star? Maybe we can re-write astrophysics texts from that! 

I would first become a turtle, then mount a cherry milk shake on my back, and fly through the ether - screw atoms and all that other FAKE NEWS STUFF!

In addition to everything else, Cooper was the Invisible Man! Add that to the profile!
I very much doubt anyone was doing a fishing trip the day of Thanksgiving.  :rofl:  At any rate, it's exceedingly difficult to explain Tina/Tena Bar convincingly with any theory, but EU's makes as much sense as any. And honestly, end of the day, the Tena Bar money proves nothing about anything - Cooper's survival, who he was, where he or his body went - and an inordinate amount of time is spent debating it. The bottom line is, it got there somehow, and somebody was D.B. Cooper. I have seen nothing yet to indicate that SP isn't our guy apart from eye colour. (Have been playing a game whereby I try to remember people's eye colours after I talk to them. So far I'm not batting high, and I'm betting most people don't. It's one of the least dependable witness items, and one of the most influenced by emotions - threatening people's eyes are often perceived as dark, whether they are or not.) Everything else fits, right down to the non-alibi. Would be happy to see more analysis of this suspect, but am not expecting any suspect to be vetted via the Tena Bar labyrinth.

You are correct in "not expecting any suspect to be vetted via the Tena Bar labyrinth."  However, you are mistaken in saying that the money at Tina Bar is difficult to explain.  I'll grant you that the fragments at different levels cannot be explained at the present time.

Tina Bar is very easy to explain if you take into account the topography there, the actual aircraft flight path, the time of Cooper's jump, the location where the placard from the aft stairs was found, the fact that Cooper has not been heard from since the jump, and every other actual fact known about the matter.  You have to take all of these facts together to come up with a scenario for the money getting to the location where it was found.
If that were so, the FBI investigation would have had no reason to continue past 1980.  It would also not explain why the T-Bar money is acknowledged by all authors, researchers, and investigators into the case to be a "mystery", even by the FBI's own admission on their site. While I absolutely accept all expert analyses as to the flight path, particularly your own, the money find is a different matter. No unimpeachable expert seems to have emerged on anything related to the position and condition of the money, and none of the few missing people at the time to even resemble Cooper seems to fit the bill for this skyjacker. I don't think most of us would bother being here if we were at all certain the case for Cooper's death is open and shut.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: MeyerLouie on July 22, 2018, 03:13:39 PM
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Now, if you showed me a second hole, 20 feet away from the "money find" hole, that was three feet deep with shards at the bottom, that would be interesting. That said, even something like that is not problematic in as much as I believe there were multiple holes dug for the money, parachute rig and attache case (Again, I maintain that everything was buried by Sheridan then later retrieved). One hole strikes me as too large to dig with just a stick or whatever is available on the beach.


Do you think Cooper would have been comfortable spending the amount of time it takes to dig multiple holes that would be deep enough for the items in them not to be noticed?  I understand the need to get rid of evidence, but I think that it's something that has to be balanced against the added risk of being noticed by someone.  If it was me, I would think that I would wrap the chute around the bank bag, and bury that.  Then I'd fill the briefcase with some of the displaced earth from the digging, put a stone (or whatever I could find) in the rig for the chute, and throw both into the water.

This is a great question and one that brings up the whole notion of what actually took place. Put another way, something took place, that much is certain. We know that absolutely nothing that Cooper jumped with has been found outside of the cash discovered on Tena Bar.

How I would handle a situation like this given the realities may be different than Cooper. More to the point, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump over the outskirts of Seattle. After all, that would explain a lot in terms of no flight path directives, his wearing a suit and loafers, his Plan B if he had to abort the skyjack for some reason and simply deplane in Seattle to try another time, etc . However, Cooper got delayed with the unbound money and airstairs. Therefore, I maintain that he ultimately jumped and landed very near Tena Bar. Needless to say, at this point Cooper would have to improvise.

It makes sense that he would bury everything--money, rig, attache case and reserve in the sand. All things considered the sand on the beach would be relatively easy to dig and then disguise the dig site. Also, as fate would have it, he landed at night in a secluded area that is unlikely to have anyone else around. So whether he digs one large hole or multiple holes (my choice) to bury the items I don't really know but I'm sure he had plenty of uninterrupted time.

Finally, after a period of time, be it one day, one week, one month, one year, whatever, he retrieves the items, again probably at night, and moves on.

All on a public fishing bar regularly used dusk til dawn every day! Cooper must have been a fast worker.

I should ask my class: how would YOU be a star? Maybe we can re-write astrophysics texts from that! 

I would first become a turtle, then mount a cherry milk shake on my back, and fly through the ether - screw atoms and all that other FAKE NEWS STUFF!

In addition to everything else, Cooper was the Invisible Man! Add that to the profile!
I very much doubt anyone was doing a fishing trip the day of Thanksgiving.  :rofl:  At any rate, it's exceedingly difficult to explain Tina/Tena Bar convincingly with any theory, but EU's makes as much sense as any. And honestly, end of the day, the Tena Bar money proves nothing about anything - Cooper's survival, who he was, where he or his body went - and an inordinate amount of time is spent debating it. The bottom line is, it got there somehow, and somebody was D.B. Cooper. I have seen nothing yet to indicate that SP isn't our guy apart from eye colour. (Have been playing a game whereby I try to remember people's eye colours after I talk to them. So far I'm not batting high, and I'm betting most people don't. It's one of the least dependable witness items, and one of the most influenced by emotions - threatening people's eyes are often perceived as dark, whether they are or not.) Everything else fits, right down to the non-alibi. Would be happy to see more analysis of this suspect, but am not expecting any suspect to be vetted via the Tena Bar labyrinth.

You are correct in "not expecting any suspect to be vetted via the Tena Bar labyrinth."  However, you are mistaken in saying that the money at Tina Bar is difficult to explain.  I'll grant you that the fragments at different levels cannot be explained at the present time.

Tina Bar is very easy to explain if you take into account the topography there, the actual aircraft flight path, the time of Cooper's jump, the location where the placard from the aft stairs was found, the fact that Cooper has not been heard from since the jump, and every other actual fact known about the matter.  You have to take all of these facts together to come up with a scenario for the money getting to the location where it was found.


I believe there is enough evidence to deduce what actually happened at Tina Bar.   Some of the theories, like the plant theory, is simply not possible, yet some people here will die believing that Cooper planted the money at Tina Bar.  About as believable as Greg Hall's theory from the Expedition Unknown, Josh Gates program.  If Cooper jumped just north of Reno, then how was money found at Tina Bar, with all the money shards?  A virtual impossibility.

Meyer
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on July 22, 2018, 03:27:01 PM
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Now, if you showed me a second hole, 20 feet away from the "money find" hole, that was three feet deep with shards at the bottom, that would be interesting. That said, even something like that is not problematic in as much as I believe there were multiple holes dug for the money, parachute rig and attache case (Again, I maintain that everything was buried by Sheridan then later retrieved). One hole strikes me as too large to dig with just a stick or whatever is available on the beach.


Do you think Cooper would have been comfortable spending the amount of time it takes to dig multiple holes that would be deep enough for the items in them not to be noticed?  I understand the need to get rid of evidence, but I think that it's something that has to be balanced against the added risk of being noticed by someone.  If it was me, I would think that I would wrap the chute around the bank bag, and bury that.  Then I'd fill the briefcase with some of the displaced earth from the digging, put a stone (or whatever I could find) in the rig for the chute, and throw both into the water.

This is a great question and one that brings up the whole notion of what actually took place. Put another way, something took place, that much is certain. We know that absolutely nothing that Cooper jumped with has been found outside of the cash discovered on Tena Bar.

How I would handle a situation like this given the realities may be different than Cooper. More to the point, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump over the outskirts of Seattle. After all, that would explain a lot in terms of no flight path directives, his wearing a suit and loafers, his Plan B if he had to abort the skyjack for some reason and simply deplane in Seattle to try another time, etc . However, Cooper got delayed with the unbound money and airstairs. Therefore, I maintain that he ultimately jumped and landed very near Tena Bar. Needless to say, at this point Cooper would have to improvise.

It makes sense that he would bury everything--money, rig, attache case and reserve in the sand. All things considered the sand on the beach would be relatively easy to dig and then disguise the dig site. Also, as fate would have it, he landed at night in a secluded area that is unlikely to have anyone else around. So whether he digs one large hole or multiple holes (my choice) to bury the items I don't really know but I'm sure he had plenty of uninterrupted time.

Finally, after a period of time, be it one day, one week, one month, one year, whatever, he retrieves the items, again probably at night, and moves on.

All on a public fishing bar regularly used dusk til dawn every day! Cooper must have been a fast worker.

I should ask my class: how would YOU be a star? Maybe we can re-write astrophysics texts from that! 

I would first become a turtle, then mount a cherry milk shake on my back, and fly through the ether - screw atoms and all that other FAKE NEWS STUFF!

In addition to everything else, Cooper was the Invisible Man! Add that to the profile!
I very much doubt anyone was doing a fishing trip the day of Thanksgiving.  :rofl:  At any rate, it's exceedingly difficult to explain Tina/Tena Bar convincingly with any theory, but EU's makes as much sense as any. And honestly, end of the day, the Tena Bar money proves nothing about anything - Cooper's survival, who he was, where he or his body went - and an inordinate amount of time is spent debating it. The bottom line is, it got there somehow, and somebody was D.B. Cooper. I have seen nothing yet to indicate that SP isn't our guy apart from eye colour. (Have been playing a game whereby I try to remember people's eye colours after I talk to them. So far I'm not batting high, and I'm betting most people don't. It's one of the least dependable witness items, and one of the most influenced by emotions - threatening people's eyes are often perceived as dark, whether they are or not.) Everything else fits, right down to the non-alibi. Would be happy to see more analysis of this suspect, but am not expecting any suspect to be vetted via the Tena Bar labyrinth.

You are correct in "not expecting any suspect to be vetted via the Tena Bar labyrinth."  However, you are mistaken in saying that the money at Tina Bar is difficult to explain.  I'll grant you that the fragments at different levels cannot be explained at the present time.

Tina Bar is very easy to explain if you take into account the topography there, the actual aircraft flight path, the time of Cooper's jump, the location where the placard from the aft stairs was found, the fact that Cooper has not been heard from since the jump, and every other actual fact known about the matter.  You have to take all of these facts together to come up with a scenario for the money getting to the location where it was found.
If that were so, the FBI investigation would have had no reason to continue past 1980.  It would also not explain why the T-Bar money is acknowledged by all authors, researchers, and investigators into the case to be a "mystery", even by the FBI's own admission on their site. While I absolutely accept all expert analyses as to the flight path, particularly your own, the money find is a different matter. No unimpeachable expert seems to have emerged on anything related to the position and condition of the money, and none of the few missing people at the time to even resemble Cooper seems to fit the bill for this skyjacker. I don't think most of us would bother being here if we were at all certain the case for Cooper's death is open and shut.

Your second sentence above is simply not true.  The biggest "mystery" about the Cooper hijacking is why the FBI/FAA won't release the unredacted radio communications transcripts from the Seattle ATC so that the flight path and jump point can be determined with greater accuracy.  If they did that, then perhaps we could even explain the money fragments at Tina Bar.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on July 22, 2018, 03:36:19 PM
I have never had an issue with the money find and don't think it is that much of a mystery. Cooper landed near Tena Bar and buried the items immediately upon landing, thereby buying him time to work out a plan to get out of the area (Robert99 and I pretty much agree on the landing zone, except he thinks Cooper was a no-pull, and that's fair enough).

The first-hand account I have received from Richard Fazio multiple times is that the money shards were found very near the original money find the first day of the digging. I have seen nothing that contradicts that statement from a man and his brother who were actually there and were obviously very familiar with the beach and their property.

The FBI agent interviewed on TV saying pieces had been found up to 2-3 feet deep is somewhat questionable given that the hole displayed on TV where the other agent apparently found a small piece during the filming was definitely not anything close to 3 feet deep. That said, I maintain that a hole(s) was dug for the purposes of burying the cash and other items the night of the skyjacking, and the hole was obviously of some depth whether it be 24 inches, 36 inches, 42 inches, whatever.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 25, 2018, 03:07:14 PM
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I have never had an issue with the money find and don't think it is that much of a mystery. Cooper landed near Tena Bar and buried the items immediately upon landing, thereby buying him time to work out a plan to get out of the area (Robert99 and I pretty much agree on the landing zone, except he thinks Cooper was a no-pull, and that's fair enough).

The first-hand account I have received from Richard Fazio multiple times is that the money shards were found very near the original money find the first day of the digging. I have seen nothing that contradicts that statement from a man and his brother who were actually there and were obviously very familiar with the beach and their property.

The FBI agent interviewed on TV saying pieces had been found up to 2-3 feet deep is somewhat questionable given that the hole displayed on TV where the other agent apparently found a small piece during the filming was definitely not anything close to 3 feet deep. That said, I maintain that a hole(s) was dug for the purposes of burying the cash and other items the night of the skyjacking, and the hole was obviously of some depth whether it be 24 inches, 36 inches, 42 inches, whatever.

The Mike McPheters story

EU your remarks above are duly noted, however: Snowmman searched the memoirs of retired Agent McPheters (the same guy Bruce interviewed), and found the following remarks by McPheters: ""While sifting through a parcel of the beach assigned to me, I turned up portions of soil containing pieces of paper currency approximately two inches wide, but still containing serial numbers that matched Cooper's demand money.

I preserved each piece as evidence by storing them in plastic bags, tagging them with my initials and the date and case number. I kept digging. By late that night and with the help of a good rake, I had found numerous pieces of the money, all of which matched up. I documented my discovery as one of the most interesting reports I had ever written."
  (snowmman Sep 27, 2009, 7:48 PM Post #13234 of 58140 (62885 views)

Its odd how things escape people for many years. So I picked up the phone and asked a retired Agent: "Where was Mike McPheters digging?". Answer came quickly. "Oh Mike? Mike was down the beach from us digging below the Ingram find." So I said, "Woah ... now wait a minute. Where up the beach?" Answer: "Remember? We were up below the Ingram find digging down toward the water line, in that first trench. Later, Palmer wanted a second trench dug for comparison. He put that trench down the beach, maybe that's the sixty yard number I always remember, anyway the second trench was down the beach where we had turned up fragments in our original canvas. Agent: "Well, McPheters and other guys went down the beach to dig where we had found fragments and that's where Palmer sunk his second trench. That's where McPheters was digging."

Palmer mentions a second digging site (and trench?) in his report. Remember? He refers to the clay lump layer being 2ft thick near the Ingram site and 4' thick in a second trench "south of the Ingram site". It turns out "that" is where McPheters and others were digging ... and this explains for the first time why the news video shows two digging areas: one at the Ingram site to the river, and a second large site some 140-160 feet south of the Ingram marker line? Each section of beach scribed in the video frame is 20ft wide; where McPheters was digging.

This finally addresses the issue of people saying 'fragments were only found in and near the Ingram find site". It also explains the large digging site documented by the news video some 60 yards south of the Ingram site. They dug there because the original canvas had noticed money fragments in that area, and Palmer chose that site for a second comparison trench, for the same reason!

A video frame showing these two digging sites and trenches mentioned by Palmer, is attached below.

It seems apparent money fragments were also being found at some distance south of the Ingram find site, on Tina Bar. I asked the Agent how deep frags were coming out at the McPheters site and he replied "Oh right below the surface to maybe two feet deep.. thats a guess."
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on July 25, 2018, 04:05:17 PM
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I have never had an issue with the money find and don't think it is that much of a mystery. Cooper landed near Tena Bar and buried the items immediately upon landing, thereby buying him time to work out a plan to get out of the area (Robert99 and I pretty much agree on the landing zone, except he thinks Cooper was a no-pull, and that's fair enough).

The first-hand account I have received from Richard Fazio multiple times is that the money shards were found very near the original money find the first day of the digging. I have seen nothing that contradicts that statement from a man and his brother who were actually there and were obviously very familiar with the beach and their property.

The FBI agent interviewed on TV saying pieces had been found up to 2-3 feet deep is somewhat questionable given that the hole displayed on TV where the other agent apparently found a small piece during the filming was definitely not anything close to 3 feet deep. That said, I maintain that a hole(s) was dug for the purposes of burying the cash and other items the night of the skyjacking, and the hole was obviously of some depth whether it be 24 inches, 36 inches, 42 inches, whatever.

The Mike McPheters story

EU your remarks above are duly noted, however: Snowmman searched the memoirs of retired Agent McPheters (the same guy Bruce interviewed), and found the following remarks by McPheters: ""While sifting through a parcel of the beach assigned to me, I turned up portions of soil containing pieces of paper currency approximately two inches wide, but still containing serial numbers that matched Cooper's demand money.

I preserved each piece as evidence by storing them in plastic bags, tagging them with my initials and the date and case number. I kept digging. By late that night and with the help of a good rake, I had found numerous pieces of the money, all of which matched up. I documented my discovery as one of the most interesting reports I had ever written."
  (snowmman Sep 27, 2009, 7:48 PM Post #13234 of 58140 (62885 views)

Its odd how things escape people for many years. So I picked up the phone and asked a retired Agent: "Where was Mike McPheters digging?". Answer came quickly. "Oh Mike? Mike was down the beach from us digging below the Ingram find." So I said, "Woah ... now wait a minute. Where up the beach?" Answer: "Remember? We were up below the Ingram find digging down toward the water line, in that first trench. Later, Palmer wanted a second trench dug for comparison. He put that trench down the beach, maybe that's the sixty yard number I always remember, anyway the second trench was down the beach where we had turned up fragments in our original canvas. Agent: "Well, McPheters and other guys went down the beach to dig where we had found fragments and that's where Palmer sunk his second trench. That's where McPheters was digging."

Palmer mentions a second digging site (and trench?) in his report. Remember? He refers to the clay lump layer being 2ft thick near the Ingram site and 4' thick in a second trench "south of the Ingram site". It turns out "that" is where McPheters and others were digging ... and this explains for the first time why the news video shows two digging areas: one at the Ingram site to the river, and a second large site some 140-160 feet south of the Ingram marker line? Each section of beach scribed in the video frame is 20ft wide; where McPheters was digging.

This finally addresses the issue of people saying 'fragments were only found in and near the Ingram find site". It also explains the large digging site documented by the news video some 60 yards south of the Ingram site. They dug there because the original canvas had noticed money fragments in that area, and Palmer chose that site for a second comparison trench, for the same reason!

A video frame showing these two digging sites and trenches mentioned by Palmer, is attached below.

It seems apparent money fragments were also being found at some distance south of the Ingram find site, on Tina Bar. I asked the Agent how deep frags were coming out at the McPheters site and he replied "Oh right below the surface to maybe two feet deep.. thats a guess."

Georger, I assume your use of the terms "north" and "south" mean, respectively, "downstream" and "upstream".

The Snowmman quote is the second complete paragraph on page 138 of McPheters book, "Agent Bishop", ISBN 978-1-59955-317-7.  McPheters devotes one small chapter to the Cooper hijacking (Chapter 20, pages 136-139).  He uses the term "rubber bands" in referring to the money that was found.

I cannot identify anything in the far background of the picture Georger posted.  There are some buildings in the upper right-hand corner of that picture that do not match with anything I have seen elsewhere or in actual visits to Tina Bar.

A truck is shown on a road that parallels the water's edge in the picture.  Since there was only one road on the Tina Bar beach, the present landscape indicates that the water's edge
is now at least as far east as the Palmer's sites titles that Georger shows on the picture.  Meaning that the water's edge is now at least 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, further east than it was in 1980.

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 25, 2018, 04:07:38 PM
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I have never had an issue with the money find and don't think it is that much of a mystery. Cooper landed near Tena Bar and buried the items immediately upon landing, thereby buying him time to work out a plan to get out of the area (Robert99 and I pretty much agree on the landing zone, except he thinks Cooper was a no-pull, and that's fair enough).

The first-hand account I have received from Richard Fazio multiple times is that the money shards were found very near the original money find the first day of the digging. I have seen nothing that contradicts that statement from a man and his brother who were actually there and were obviously very familiar with the beach and their property.

The FBI agent interviewed on TV saying pieces had been found up to 2-3 feet deep is somewhat questionable given that the hole displayed on TV where the other agent apparently found a small piece during the filming was definitely not anything close to 3 feet deep. That said, I maintain that a hole(s) was dug for the purposes of burying the cash and other items the night of the skyjacking, and the hole was obviously of some depth whether it be 24 inches, 36 inches, 42 inches, whatever.

The Mike McPheters story

EU your remarks above are duly noted, however: Snowmman searched the memoirs of retired Agent McPheters (the same guy Bruce interviewed), and found the following remarks by McPheters: ""While sifting through a parcel of the beach assigned to me, I turned up portions of soil containing pieces of paper currency approximately two inches wide, but still containing serial numbers that matched Cooper's demand money.

I preserved each piece as evidence by storing them in plastic bags, tagging them with my initials and the date and case number. I kept digging. By late that night and with the help of a good rake, I had found numerous pieces of the money, all of which matched up. I documented my discovery as one of the most interesting reports I had ever written."
  (snowmman Sep 27, 2009, 7:48 PM Post #13234 of 58140 (62885 views)

Its odd how things escape people for many years. So I picked up the phone and asked a retired Agent: "Where was Mike McPheters digging?". Answer came quickly. "Oh Mike? Mike was down the beach from us digging below the Ingram find." So I said, "Woah ... now wait a minute. Where up the beach?" Answer: "Remember? We were up below the Ingram find digging down toward the water line, in that first trench. Later, Palmer wanted a second trench dug for comparison. He put that trench down the beach, maybe that's the sixty yard number I always remember, anyway the second trench was down the beach where we had turned up fragments in our original canvas. Agent: "Well, McPheters and other guys went down the beach to dig where we had found fragments and that's where Palmer sunk his second trench. That's where McPheters was digging."

Palmer mentions a second digging site (and trench?) in his report. Remember? He refers to the clay lump layer being 2ft thick near the Ingram site and 4' thick in a second trench "south of the Ingram site". It turns out "that" is where McPheters and others were digging ... and this explains for the first time why the news video shows two digging areas: one at the Ingram site to the river, and a second large site some 140-160 feet south of the Ingram marker line? Each section of beach scribed in the video frame is 20ft wide; where McPheters was digging.

This finally addresses the issue of people saying 'fragments were only found in and near the Ingram find site". It also explains the large digging site documented by the news video some 60 yards south of the Ingram site. They dug there because the original canvas had noticed money fragments in that area, and Palmer chose that site for a second comparison trench, for the same reason!

A video frame showing these two digging sites and trenches mentioned by Palmer, is attached below.

It seems apparent money fragments were also being found at some distance south of the Ingram find site, on Tina Bar. I asked the Agent how deep frags were coming out at the McPheters site and he replied "Oh right below the surface to maybe two feet deep.. thats a guess."

Georger, I assume your use of the terms "north" and "south" mean, respectively, "downstream" and "upstream".

The Snowmman quote is the second complete paragraph on page 138 of McPheters book, "Agent Bishop", ISBN 978-1-59955-317-7.  McPheters devotes one small chapter to the Cooper hijacking (Chapter 20, pages 136-139).  He uses the term "rubber bands" in referring to the money that was found.

I cannot identify anything in the far background of the picture Georger posted.  There are some buildings in the upper right-hand corner of that picture that do not match with anything I have seen elsewhere or in actual visits to Tina Bar.

A truck is shown on a road that parallels the water's edge in the picture.  Since there was only one road on the Tina Bar beach, the present landscape indicates that the water's edge
is now at least as far east as the Palmer's sites titles that Georger shows on the picture.  Meaning that the water's edge is now at least 150 feet further east than it was in 1980.

What does McPheters say about rubber bands in his book?

And yes. North=upstream   south=downstream  relative to the Ingram find location. BTW I checked out Kaye's chart and his scale is pretty much correct. The building with yellow line on the photo is 221ft long, as per county records Shutter found. Using that as a scale everything else checks out, as per the attached.

The yellow pin (find site) is therefore about 40yards from the river - does this work for you?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on July 25, 2018, 04:44:29 PM
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I have never had an issue with the money find and don't think it is that much of a mystery. Cooper landed near Tena Bar and buried the items immediately upon landing, thereby buying him time to work out a plan to get out of the area (Robert99 and I pretty much agree on the landing zone, except he thinks Cooper was a no-pull, and that's fair enough).

The first-hand account I have received from Richard Fazio multiple times is that the money shards were found very near the original money find the first day of the digging. I have seen nothing that contradicts that statement from a man and his brother who were actually there and were obviously very familiar with the beach and their property.

The FBI agent interviewed on TV saying pieces had been found up to 2-3 feet deep is somewhat questionable given that the hole displayed on TV where the other agent apparently found a small piece during the filming was definitely not anything close to 3 feet deep. That said, I maintain that a hole(s) was dug for the purposes of burying the cash and other items the night of the skyjacking, and the hole was obviously of some depth whether it be 24 inches, 36 inches, 42 inches, whatever.

The Mike McPheters story

EU your remarks above are duly noted, however: Snowmman searched the memoirs of retired Agent McPheters (the same guy Bruce interviewed), and found the following remarks by McPheters: ""While sifting through a parcel of the beach assigned to me, I turned up portions of soil containing pieces of paper currency approximately two inches wide, but still containing serial numbers that matched Cooper's demand money.

I preserved each piece as evidence by storing them in plastic bags, tagging them with my initials and the date and case number. I kept digging. By late that night and with the help of a good rake, I had found numerous pieces of the money, all of which matched up. I documented my discovery as one of the most interesting reports I had ever written."
  (snowmman Sep 27, 2009, 7:48 PM Post #13234 of 58140 (62885 views)

Its odd how things escape people for many years. So I picked up the phone and asked a retired Agent: "Where was Mike McPheters digging?". Answer came quickly. "Oh Mike? Mike was down the beach from us digging below the Ingram find." So I said, "Woah ... now wait a minute. Where up the beach?" Answer: "Remember? We were up below the Ingram find digging down toward the water line, in that first trench. Later, Palmer wanted a second trench dug for comparison. He put that trench down the beach, maybe that's the sixty yard number I always remember, anyway the second trench was down the beach where we had turned up fragments in our original canvas. Agent: "Well, McPheters and other guys went down the beach to dig where we had found fragments and that's where Palmer sunk his second trench. That's where McPheters was digging."

Palmer mentions a second digging site (and trench?) in his report. Remember? He refers to the clay lump layer being 2ft thick near the Ingram site and 4' thick in a second trench "south of the Ingram site". It turns out "that" is where McPheters and others were digging ... and this explains for the first time why the news video shows two digging areas: one at the Ingram site to the river, and a second large site some 140-160 feet south of the Ingram marker line? Each section of beach scribed in the video frame is 20ft wide; where McPheters was digging.

This finally addresses the issue of people saying 'fragments were only found in and near the Ingram find site". It also explains the large digging site documented by the news video some 60 yards south of the Ingram site. They dug there because the original canvas had noticed money fragments in that area, and Palmer chose that site for a second comparison trench, for the same reason!

A video frame showing these two digging sites and trenches mentioned by Palmer, is attached below.

It seems apparent money fragments were also being found at some distance south of the Ingram find site, on Tina Bar. I asked the Agent how deep frags were coming out at the McPheters site and he replied "Oh right below the surface to maybe two feet deep.. thats a guess."

Georger, I assume your use of the terms "north" and "south" mean, respectively, "downstream" and "upstream".

The Snowmman quote is the second complete paragraph on page 138 of McPheters book, "Agent Bishop", ISBN 978-1-59955-317-7.  McPheters devotes one small chapter to the Cooper hijacking (Chapter 20, pages 136-139).  He uses the term "rubber bands" in referring to the money that was found.

I cannot identify anything in the far background of the picture Georger posted.  There are some buildings in the upper right-hand corner of that picture that do not match with anything I have seen elsewhere or in actual visits to Tina Bar.

A truck is shown on a road that parallels the water's edge in the picture.  Since there was only one road on the Tina Bar beach, the present landscape indicates that the water's edge
is now at least as far east as the Palmer's sites titles that Georger shows on the picture.  Meaning that the water's edge is now at least 150 feet further east than it was in 1980.

What does McPheters say about rubber bands in his book?

And yes. North=upstream   south=downstream  relative to the Ingram find location. BTW I checked out Kaye's chart and his scale is pretty much correct. The building with yellow line on the photo is 221ft long, as per county records Shutter found. Using that as a scale everything else checks out, as per the attached.

The yellow pin (find site) is therefore about 40yards from the river - does this work for you?

Georger, it is the other way around.  North=downstream, South=upstream.  The river runs from the south to the north at Tina Bar.

McPheters mention of rubber bands is as follows:  "The 294 deteriorated twenty dollar bills were still bundled and bound by rubber bands."  Since he was there the first day of the dig, he was, as a minimum, reporting what was "common knowledge" at that point.  Obviously, no one said anything about "paper bands" to him.

The picture you used above was the 1974 aerial photograph.  I can believe that the money was found just about anywhere in the penciled area since as you have shown above the money was scattered over quite a distance and was not found at a "point" or small area.  However, the yellow pin still seems to be a bit to far north. 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 25, 2018, 05:57:51 PM
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I have never had an issue with the money find and don't think it is that much of a mystery. Cooper landed near Tena Bar and buried the items immediately upon landing, thereby buying him time to work out a plan to get out of the area (Robert99 and I pretty much agree on the landing zone, except he thinks Cooper was a no-pull, and that's fair enough).

The first-hand account I have received from Richard Fazio multiple times is that the money shards were found very near the original money find the first day of the digging. I have seen nothing that contradicts that statement from a man and his brother who were actually there and were obviously very familiar with the beach and their property.

The FBI agent interviewed on TV saying pieces had been found up to 2-3 feet deep is somewhat questionable given that the hole displayed on TV where the other agent apparently found a small piece during the filming was definitely not anything close to 3 feet deep. That said, I maintain that a hole(s) was dug for the purposes of burying the cash and other items the night of the skyjacking, and the hole was obviously of some depth whether it be 24 inches, 36 inches, 42 inches, whatever.

The Mike McPheters story

EU your remarks above are duly noted, however: Snowmman searched the memoirs of retired Agent McPheters (the same guy Bruce interviewed), and found the following remarks by McPheters: ""While sifting through a parcel of the beach assigned to me, I turned up portions of soil containing pieces of paper currency approximately two inches wide, but still containing serial numbers that matched Cooper's demand money.

I preserved each piece as evidence by storing them in plastic bags, tagging them with my initials and the date and case number. I kept digging. By late that night and with the help of a good rake, I had found numerous pieces of the money, all of which matched up. I documented my discovery as one of the most interesting reports I had ever written."
  (snowmman Sep 27, 2009, 7:48 PM Post #13234 of 58140 (62885 views)

Its odd how things escape people for many years. So I picked up the phone and asked a retired Agent: "Where was Mike McPheters digging?". Answer came quickly. "Oh Mike? Mike was down the beach from us digging below the Ingram find." So I said, "Woah ... now wait a minute. Where up the beach?" Answer: "Remember? We were up below the Ingram find digging down toward the water line, in that first trench. Later, Palmer wanted a second trench dug for comparison. He put that trench down the beach, maybe that's the sixty yard number I always remember, anyway the second trench was down the beach where we had turned up fragments in our original canvas. Agent: "Well, McPheters and other guys went down the beach to dig where we had found fragments and that's where Palmer sunk his second trench. That's where McPheters was digging."

Palmer mentions a second digging site (and trench?) in his report. Remember? He refers to the clay lump layer being 2ft thick near the Ingram site and 4' thick in a second trench "south of the Ingram site". It turns out "that" is where McPheters and others were digging ... and this explains for the first time why the news video shows two digging areas: one at the Ingram site to the river, and a second large site some 140-160 feet south of the Ingram marker line? Each section of beach scribed in the video frame is 20ft wide; where McPheters was digging.

This finally addresses the issue of people saying 'fragments were only found in and near the Ingram find site". It also explains the large digging site documented by the news video some 60 yards south of the Ingram site. They dug there because the original canvas had noticed money fragments in that area, and Palmer chose that site for a second comparison trench, for the same reason!

A video frame showing these two digging sites and trenches mentioned by Palmer, is attached below.

It seems apparent money fragments were also being found at some distance south of the Ingram find site, on Tina Bar. I asked the Agent how deep frags were coming out at the McPheters site and he replied "Oh right below the surface to maybe two feet deep.. thats a guess."

Georger, I assume your use of the terms "north" and "south" mean, respectively, "downstream" and "upstream".

The Snowmman quote is the second complete paragraph on page 138 of McPheters book, "Agent Bishop", ISBN 978-1-59955-317-7.  McPheters devotes one small chapter to the Cooper hijacking (Chapter 20, pages 136-139).  He uses the term "rubber bands" in referring to the money that was found.

I cannot identify anything in the far background of the picture Georger posted.  There are some buildings in the upper right-hand corner of that picture that do not match with anything I have seen elsewhere or in actual visits to Tina Bar.

A truck is shown on a road that parallels the water's edge in the picture.  Since there was only one road on the Tina Bar beach, the present landscape indicates that the water's edge
is now at least as far east as the Palmer's sites titles that Georger shows on the picture.  Meaning that the water's edge is now at least 150 feet further east than it was in 1980.

What does McPheters say about rubber bands in his book?

And yes. North=upstream   south=downstream  relative to the Ingram find location. BTW I checked out Kaye's chart and his scale is pretty much correct. The building with yellow line on the photo is 221ft long, as per county records Shutter found. Using that as a scale everything else checks out, as per the attached.

The yellow pin (find site) is therefore about 40yards from the river - does this work for you?

Georger, it is the other way around.  North=downstream, South=upstream.  The river runs from the south to the north at Tina Bar.

McPheters mention of rubber bands is as follows:  "The 294 deteriorated twenty dollar bills were still bundled and bound by rubber bands."  Since he was there the first day of the dig, he was, as a minimum, reporting what was "common knowledge" at that point.  Obviously, no one said anything about "paper bands" to him.

The picture you used above was the 1974 aerial photograph.  I can believe that the money was found just about anywhere in the penciled area since as you have shown above the money was scattered over quite a distance and was not found at a "point" or small area.  However, the yellow pin still seems to be a bit to far north.

ok sorry for the mixup. I always confuse those two! There was always confusion about the location of the money find as I will illustrate tonight. To make a long story short, they finally settled on Harold's? version. Devious people lead to uncertainty. The Fazio's didn't know because they werent even there! They didnt even know the find had happened and the excavation had started until Al Fazio returned home only to find a guard blocking his road around noon! More later from what Tom calls 'The Transcript' socalled.   
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 26, 2018, 01:33:38 AM
Ingram Money Find Location - Uncertainty at the beginning:

The excavation of Tena Bar began informally around Noon on Feb 12th, 1980 under the direction of Agent Dorwin Schreuder with others - while the Ingrams were telling their story at a Press Conference with Himmelsbach at 3:00PM at the FBI Office in Portland. The location of the find was being directed by Harold and Pat Ingram's version of where Brian had turned up the money - see press photo below.

On Wednesday February 13, 1980,  with the excavation already in progress, the Portland office got a shock. Mrs. Crystal Ingram of Vancouver, Washington contacted the Portland FBI Office to advise that ‘the story of the finding of the money by Brian Ingram was NOT entirely accurate’. Crystal informed Agent Himmelsbach that the story Harold and Pat Ingram had given was false. She told Agent Himmelsbach that it was Brian and her daughter Denise who were ‘playing together in the sand by the fire near the water's edge' when the two children turned up what looked like money. She says Harold Dwayne Ingram was many feet away at the time while she and Pat were off to another side having a personal discussion. She says the children called out and she and Pat turned to look while Harold eventually made his way back down the incline to the children's side, near the water, and it was Harold who then called out for Pat and Crystal to come and look. Harold had recognised what the children had turned up with a stick as money!

Crystal told Himmslebach 'that' was the true time and the circumstance that the money was found.  AND THE ACTUAL PLACE WHERE THE MONEY WAS FOUND  WAS ACTUALLY NEAR THE WATER’S EDGE. She says that the only connection between the place Harold has identified is it was 'his' location further up the incline closer to the trees where Harold was, when the children called out from where they were playing near the fire close to the water. She says the fire had already been built and it was near the water's edge - that's why the children were there playing together. She says it has nothing to do with Brian waving his hand on the sand prior to a fire being built. The fire had already been made!

Mrs. Crystal Ingram also advises that not all of the money has been turned in by Harold and Patricia Ingram.

After some discussion Crystal Ingram agreed to do what she could do to see that the remainder of the found money will be turned in to the FBI.

On Thursday February 14, 1980 the excavation wrapped up and Crystal Ingram appeared at the Portland Office (by previous appointment with Agent Himmelsbach) and turned in four more bills the Ingrams had been holding back. She reiterated her story again to Agent Himmelsbach, almost verbatum.

On Tuesday February 19, 1980  Crystal Ingram repeated the same version of her story again to SA Himmelsbach, telephonically. There was a lengthy discussion. Crystal explained that her status in the Ingram family was tenous in as much as she was divorced from Harold's brother and there were serious family tensions.

On Wednesday February 20, 1980, Patricia Lynn Ingram contacted the Portland FBI Office by phone saying that she had heard on the radio that the FBI was making an award to Brian Ingram for having found the money. Patricia was told that the Portland Division had no such information or authority to give a reward.
 
Patricia pressed and then asked if Crystal Ingram had visited the Portland Office?  That was confirmed. Patricia asked ‘if Crystal brought anything with her’? This was acknowledged. And Patricia asked (bluntly) “how many” and was told FOUR bills. 

Patricia volunteered ‘that it was she and Crystal who had kept two bills each from the ransom money, as souvenirs', not realizing what it was, and that when the circumstances were explained to them 'by someone' they had a family conference and decided to return all the money to the FBI, through Crystal.

Patricia asked 'what else has Crystal told you' and she was told 'that is confidential information' and she hung up.

The Portland Office apparently decided not to press the matter further. Harold was informed that he had an outstanding warrant in another state and he promised to take care of that on his own.

In the following days Pat Ingram launched a serious attempt through the Media to get Brian an award for his discovery of the Cooper money. At length the Ingrams hired attorney Richard Tosaw, who pressed the matter in Court. Crystal Ingram merged back into the background and did not press matters further.

Crystal Ingram was brought up during the Colbert investigation. I have no information about the outcome of that.     
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on July 26, 2018, 02:12:10 AM
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Ingram Money Find Location - Uncertainty at the beginning:

The excavation of Tena Bar began informally around Noon on Feb 12th, 1980 under the direction of Agent Dorwin Schreuder with others - while the Ingrams were telling their story at a Press Conference with Himmelsbach at 3:00PM at the FBI Office in Portland. The location of the find was being directed by Harold and Pat Ingram's version of where Brian had turned up the money - see press photo below.

On Wednesday February 13, 1980,  with the excavation already in progress, the Portland office got a shock. Mrs. Crystal Ingram of Vancouver, Washington contacted the Portland FBI Office to advise that ‘the story of the finding of the money by Brian Ingram was NOT entirely accurate’. Crystal informed Agent Himmelsbach that the story Harold and Pat Ingram had given was false. She told Agent Himmelsbach that it was Brian and her daughter Denise who were ‘playing together in the sand by the fire near the water's edge' when the two children turned up what looked like money. She says Harold Dwayne Ingram was many feet away at the time while she and Pat were off to another side having a personal discussion. She says the children called out and she and Pat turned to look while Harold eventually made his way back down the incline to the children's side, near the water, and it was Harold who then called out for Pat and Crystal to come and look. Harold had recognised what the children had turned up with a stick as money!

Crystal told Himmslebach 'that' was the true time and the circumstance that the money was found.  AND THE ACTUAL PLACE WHERE THE MONEY WAS FOUND  WAS ACTUALLY NEAR THE WATER’S EDGE. She says that the only connection between the place Harold has identified is it was 'his' location further up the incline closer to the trees where Harold was, when the children called out from where they were playing near the fire close to the water. She says the fire had already been built and it was near the water's edge - that's why the children were there playing together. She says it has nothing to do with Brian waving his hand on the sand prior to a fire being built. The fire had already been made!

Mrs. Crystal Ingram also advises that not all of the money has been turned in by Harold and Patricia Ingram.

After some discussion Crystal Ingram agreed to do what she could do to see that the remainder of the found money will be turned in to the FBI.

On Thursday February 14, 1980 the excavation wrapped up and Crystal Ingram appeared at the Portland Office (by previous appointment with Agent Himmelsbach) and turned in four more bills the Ingrams had been holding back. She reiterated her story again to Agent Himmelsbach, almost verbatum.

On Tuesday February 19, 1980  Crystal Ingram repeated the same version of her story again to SA Himmelsbach, telephonically. There was a lengthy discussion. Crystal explained that her status in the Ingram family was tenous in as much as she was divorced from Harold's brother and there were serious family tensions.

On Wednesday February 20, 1980, Patricia Lynn Ingram contacted the Portland FBI Office by phone saying that she had heard on the radio that the FBI was making an award to Brian Ingram for having found the money. Patricia was told that the Portland Division had no such information or authority to give a reward.
 
Patricia pressed and then asked if Crystal Ingram had visited the Portland Office?  That was confirmed. Patricia asked ‘if Crystal brought anything with her’? This was acknowledged. And Patricia asked (bluntly) “how many” and was told FOUR bills. 

Patricia volunteered ‘that it was she and Crystal who had kept two bills each from the ransom money, as souvenirs', not realizing what it was, and that when the circumstances were explained to them 'by someone' they had a family conference and decided to return all the money to the FBI, through Crystal.

Patricia asked 'what else has Crystal told you' and she was told 'that is confidential information' and she hung up.

The Portland Office apparently decided not to press the matter further. Harold was informed that he had an outstanding warrant in another state and he promised to take care of that on his own.

In the following days Pat Ingram launched a serious attempt through the Media to get Brian an award for his discovery of the Cooper money. At length the Ingrams hired attorney Richard Tosaw, who pressed the matter in Court. Crystal Ingram merged back into the background and did not press matters further.

Crystal Ingram was brought up during the Colbert investigation. I have no information about the outcome of that.     

And Richard Tosaw was a former FBI agent who wrote a book on the hijacking.  I understand that Tosaw also did some serious research at Tina Bar, including underwater research, at his own expense.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 26, 2018, 03:18:44 AM
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Ingram Money Find Location - Uncertainty at the beginning:

The excavation of Tena Bar began informally around Noon on Feb 12th, 1980 under the direction of Agent Dorwin Schreuder with others - while the Ingrams were telling their story at a Press Conference with Himmelsbach at 3:00PM at the FBI Office in Portland. The location of the find was being directed by Harold and Pat Ingram's version of where Brian had turned up the money - see press photo below.

On Wednesday February 13, 1980,  with the excavation already in progress, the Portland office got a shock. Mrs. Crystal Ingram of Vancouver, Washington contacted the Portland FBI Office to advise that ‘the story of the finding of the money by Brian Ingram was NOT entirely accurate’. Crystal informed Agent Himmelsbach that the story Harold and Pat Ingram had given was false. She told Agent Himmelsbach that it was Brian and her daughter Denise who were ‘playing together in the sand by the fire near the water's edge' when the two children turned up what looked like money. She says Harold Dwayne Ingram was many feet away at the time while she and Pat were off to another side having a personal discussion. She says the children called out and she and Pat turned to look while Harold eventually made his way back down the incline to the children's side, near the water, and it was Harold who then called out for Pat and Crystal to come and look. Harold had recognised what the children had turned up with a stick as money!

Crystal told Himmslebach 'that' was the true time and the circumstance that the money was found.  AND THE ACTUAL PLACE WHERE THE MONEY WAS FOUND  WAS ACTUALLY NEAR THE WATER’S EDGE. She says that the only connection between the place Harold has identified is it was 'his' location further up the incline closer to the trees where Harold was, when the children called out from where they were playing near the fire close to the water. She says the fire had already been built and it was near the water's edge - that's why the children were there playing together. She says it has nothing to do with Brian waving his hand on the sand prior to a fire being built. The fire had already been made!

Mrs. Crystal Ingram also advises that not all of the money has been turned in by Harold and Patricia Ingram.

After some discussion Crystal Ingram agreed to do what she could do to see that the remainder of the found money will be turned in to the FBI.

On Thursday February 14, 1980 the excavation wrapped up and Crystal Ingram appeared at the Portland Office (by previous appointment with Agent Himmelsbach) and turned in four more bills the Ingrams had been holding back. She reiterated her story again to Agent Himmelsbach, almost verbatum.

On Tuesday February 19, 1980  Crystal Ingram repeated the same version of her story again to SA Himmelsbach, telephonically. There was a lengthy discussion. Crystal explained that her status in the Ingram family was tenous in as much as she was divorced from Harold's brother and there were serious family tensions.

On Wednesday February 20, 1980, Patricia Lynn Ingram contacted the Portland FBI Office by phone saying that she had heard on the radio that the FBI was making an award to Brian Ingram for having found the money. Patricia was told that the Portland Division had no such information or authority to give a reward.
 
Patricia pressed and then asked if Crystal Ingram had visited the Portland Office?  That was confirmed. Patricia asked ‘if Crystal brought anything with her’? This was acknowledged. And Patricia asked (bluntly) “how many” and was told FOUR bills. 

Patricia volunteered ‘that it was she and Crystal who had kept two bills each from the ransom money, as souvenirs', not realizing what it was, and that when the circumstances were explained to them 'by someone' they had a family conference and decided to return all the money to the FBI, through Crystal.

Patricia asked 'what else has Crystal told you' and she was told 'that is confidential information' and she hung up.

The Portland Office apparently decided not to press the matter further. Harold was informed that he had an outstanding warrant in another state and he promised to take care of that on his own.

In the following days Pat Ingram launched a serious attempt through the Media to get Brian an award for his discovery of the Cooper money. At length the Ingrams hired attorney Richard Tosaw, who pressed the matter in Court. Crystal Ingram merged back into the background and did not press matters further.

Crystal Ingram was brought up during the Colbert investigation. I have no information about the outcome of that.     

And Richard Tosaw was a former FBI agent who wrote a book on the hijacking.  I understand that Tosaw also did some serious research at Tina Bar, including underwater research, at his own expense.

Yes he did. He focused on the river vs higher up and inland. Convinced Cooper was a no-pull right into the Columbia. He had to be aware of the Crystal Ingram account vs Harold and Pat's account. Money at the water's edge - you focus on the river?

And he represented the Ingram's interests well in spite of what how he directed his own personal research. His research approach favors Crystal's account more than his own client's account ? Did Crystal's account influence the excavation in any way?

If Brian and Denise were by a fire already built, near the water's edge,  playing in the sand, Brian was eight years old at the time and he has to remember that. Denise was five going on six. If Crystal is right, Harold and Pat told Brian what to say perhaps in order to protect his rights to ownership of the event, and they very clearly wanted money from this discovery however that could be made to happen. Pat launched a bold-strong media campaign including on the radio, after Himmelsbach turned her reward expectation down. Crystal in contrast demurred and vanished.

But, was any of this communicated to the people conducting the excavation? To what result if any?       

In this photo posed for he media, Brian has a stick in his hands, just like Crystal said.  Harold's account is that Brian was 'feeling the sand with his hand', scooping out a place to build a fire 'with his hands', and he 'felt something in the sand 'with his hand(s)', no mention of a stick probing or playing in the sand (next to a campfire) as children might do. Note the incline in this posed photo. That's a helluva a place to build a campfire, on an incline ... for people to slide down hill?  Never mind the rough terrain! I wouldnt build a campfire for my family in such a place. It doesnt add up.  :) 

Second press photo added - no stick in hands but maybe demonstrating he was feeling of smoothing out the sand with his hand, as per his Dad's story? Both photos in same location. Two different versions of the same story. 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 26, 2018, 05:55:51 PM
Talked to two agents today who worked the Tena Bar dig out of the Portland office. Several new details: (1) they say when they arrived at T_Bar someone had already driven a stake at the alleged money find site - they arent sure whom - maybe someone from the Sherriff's office, or Vancouver or Seattle office - it wasnt us, they say. (2) The first Portland heard of the Ingram find was from the Sherriff's office, not from any of the Ingrams. Harold Ingram called the next day. (3) We never heard that one of the Ingrams was disputing the location and circumstances of the money find. It was Harold's account we went with, and the stake we found upon arriving at T_Bar. What we 'were told' was that there was a dispute within the Ingram family about who was going to get a reward, or even if there would be a reward, but the news of the day (newspapers and radio) made that clear. Pat Ingram was everywhere making her case publicly. (4) The Fazios werent there when we started around noon. It was some time before they showed up. After 3:00pm news reporters descended on us - we were overwhelmed with them and had to organise someone and someplace to meet with them; I was assigned that job and I worked out of the back of a hatch-back. (5) I think I was not too far up the beach from the river's edge when I found a piece and showed it to a film crew. The hole in front of me was maybe 2 feet deep or more. The fragments found were not all in the area around the stake (Ingram location) but in various holes we dug across the excavation site.   
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 27, 2018, 04:22:39 AM
Interesting tidbit, G. Who were the agents? Dorwin and McPheter?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 27, 2018, 04:51:36 AM
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Interesting tidbit, G. Who were the agents? Dorwin and McPheter?

close ... although it hasnt been mentioned much, the Vancouver Office was highly involved at different times. Two agents there at the time; an older agent and a younger. The older agent had worked closely with Ralph and was described as an 'expert' on the case. He and Ralph retired around the same time.  Tena Bar was technically under Vancouver jurisdiction at the time.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 28, 2018, 01:31:21 AM
Why not name their names?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 28, 2018, 03:07:05 AM
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Why not name their names?

Because it is not them speaking, it is me. Some people do want some degree of privacy. I realise its a catch-22. If they want to come and speak for themselves they will do it! We are discussing here, throwing thoughts and people's info around, doing what-ifs. This isnt a court room and a trial! Nobody is bound by what they say at a particular time. This isnt celestial mechanics with math! You have gained a rep for throwing people under the buss and being demanding and that has closed many doors to you, permanently. An example of that was your holding Schreuder's feet to the fire over "briefcase". Where I can, I prefer to work with people (longterm) to problem solve rather than looking for headlines and absolutes. Absolutes in old cases have a way of vanishing in front of your face vs standing the test of time as 'assumed facts' one can work with. Nobody likes to be intimidated unless its for a damned good reason!  vote the smileycode and safe     
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 28, 2018, 04:14:47 AM
I disagree. I think there is a way to report on what people say that is fair and reasonable. FBI agents are public servants in my view, and thus have a responsibility to share their knowledge is appropriate ways. To keep their names hidden weakens the value of what they say.

Further, your characterization of my journalism is false. I have not misrepresented anything that Schreuder told me, and I think I told it in a respectful manner. The last time I spoke with Dorwin - after the book came out - we had a very cordial conversation, and he even sent me his grandson's book on his career.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on July 28, 2018, 10:29:55 AM
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I disagree. I think there is a way to report on what people say that is fair and reasonable. FBI agents are public servants in my view, and thus have a responsibility to share their knowledge is appropriate ways. To keep their names hidden weakens the value of what they say.

Further, your characterization of my journalism is false. I have not misrepresented anything that Schreuder told me, and I think I told it in a respectful manner. The last time I spoke with Dorwin - after the book came out - we had a very cordial conversation, and he even sent me his grandson's book on his career.

So, there you go. Diff people get different results with diff methods. You asked. I told you. You are you. I am me.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on August 04, 2018, 01:38:56 AM
I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on August 04, 2018, 01:52:55 AM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

Also, you should note that the agent (standing near the middle of the picture, wearing a plaid shirt, with dark brown hair, turned away from the camera and with his right shirt sleeve rolled up to his elbow thereby revealing a shirt underneath the plaid shirt) is the same agent who discovers the small piece of currency during the filming of the newscast footage that is available on this site.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Kermit on August 04, 2018, 01:23:22 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

Just wanted to note as a local at the time of this money find exactly how the FBI reacted. They speculated about a possible plant but also they really went full board on the Washougal basin theory ! That’s when all the flight plan theories started to be re-examined! Suddenly the pilots pretty much started to hedge on their original stories also. I tend to give more credence to original testimony than that given years later. Jmho
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on August 04, 2018, 01:48:50 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

Just wanted to note as a local at the time of this money find exactly how the FBI reacted. They speculated about a possible plant but also they really went full board on the Washougal basin theory ! That’s when all the flight plan theories started to be re-examined! Suddenly the pilots pretty much started to hedge on their original stories also. I tend to give more credence to original testimony than that given years later. Jmho

That's great insight. It makes perfect sense that some measure of "CYA" would set in as new evidence is discovered.

I do think that Robert99's writings regarding the flight path and a Tena Bar DZ are completely accurate and that the FBI got it wrong. I also maintain that there are two critical facts that support this notion: First, after nearly 50 years  nothing has ever been found in the original DZ. Second, the money was found on Tena Bar.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on August 04, 2018, 01:49:42 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

Just wanted to note as a local at the time of this money find exactly how the FBI reacted. They speculated about a possible plant but also they really went full board on the Washougal basin theory ! That’s when all the flight plan theories started to be re-examined! Suddenly the pilots pretty much started to hedge on their original stories also. I tend to give more credence to original testimony than that given years later. Jmho

So far no Cooper money has been found on the Moon! No need to claim the astronauts were wearing "two" space suits!  And the flight path is off by 240,000 miles. :rofl:

In addition, its obvious some people have no faith in forums! And the work down in forums years ago by some pretty smart people who showed two facts: (a) the weak point in the previously assigned flight path was and is the time scale (when Cooper bailed), and (b) 305 did cross the Columbia. From those two facts alone you can get money to Tena Bar, and you dont have to invent agents changing costumes and holding up cue cards!

The other overwhelming facts is: stuff winds up at Tena Bar by natural (and mechanical) means - always has and always will. But Cooper money is somehow exempt from this rule, because some conspiracy theory is somehow preferred more.

The next time you need a physician go to a witch-doctor instead! And follow the tv advertising and the advice given by Adventure Books of Seattle (which is actually hiding in Auburn WA, Apt C! They do housecleaning but will run your life for a small fee.).
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on August 04, 2018, 02:37:01 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on August 04, 2018, 02:51:30 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...

Semantics. You understand my point?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on August 04, 2018, 02:56:38 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...

Semantics. You understand my point?

It is not semantics - it is FACT. Big difference in decomposition factors between paper and currency which is a CLOTH! Like the difference between a musk melon and a 57 chevy left in nature top decompose! Get your facts straight for a change? Facts matter in this business. Without the basic facts its all hot air and suppositions and FAKE news.
 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on August 04, 2018, 04:44:35 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...

Semantics. You understand my point?

It is not semantics - it is FACT. Big difference in decomposition factors between paper and currency which is a CLOTH! Like the difference between a musk melon and a 57 chevy left in nature top decompose! Get your facts straight for a change? Facts matter in this business. Without the basic facts its all hot air and suppositions and FAKE news.

Come on now. Don't be THAT guy. You know, the guy who argues that a "yellow" light is not really "yellow" but actually "amber."
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on August 04, 2018, 04:52:35 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...

Semantics. You understand my point?

It is not semantics - it is FACT. Big difference in decomposition factors between paper and currency which is a CLOTH! Like the difference between a musk melon and a 57 chevy left in nature top decompose! Get your facts straight for a change? Facts matter in this business. Without the basic facts its all hot air and suppositions and FAKE news.

Come on now. Don't be THAT guy. You know, the guy who argues that a "yellow" light is not really "yellow" but actually "amber."

I think you miss the point,, paper wouldn't last very long (vs money) in that environment and you wouldn't expect to find it buried years later as you suggested.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on August 04, 2018, 05:02:07 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...

Semantics. You understand my point?

It is not semantics - it is FACT. Big difference in decomposition factors between paper and currency which is a CLOTH! Like the difference between a musk melon and a 57 chevy left in nature top decompose! Get your facts straight for a change? Facts matter in this business. Without the basic facts its all hot air and suppositions and FAKE news.

Come on now. Don't be THAT guy. You know, the guy who argues that a "yellow" light is not really "yellow" but actually "amber."

I think you miss the point,, paper wouldn't last very long (vs money) in that environment and you wouldn't expect to find it buried years later as you suggested.

Yes, I understand your point.

My point--the one made in the initial post--is that if money could "self bury" then newspapers, magazines and the like--which I refer to as "loosely similar" should also be able to "self bury." A magazine or a newspaper may not last as long as currency, nonetheless, it will last for a while...

...therefore, it is reasonable to assume that other items such as magazines, newspapers and the like would have also been found buried.

Cheers!
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on August 04, 2018, 05:09:11 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...

Semantics. You understand my point?

It is not semantics - it is FACT. Big difference in decomposition factors between paper and currency which is a CLOTH! Like the difference between a musk melon and a 57 chevy left in nature top decompose! Get your facts straight for a change? Facts matter in this business. Without the basic facts its all hot air and suppositions and FAKE news.

Come on now. Don't be THAT guy. You know, the guy who argues that a "yellow" light is not really "yellow" but actually "amber."

I think you miss the point,, paper wouldn't last very long (vs money) in that environment and you wouldn't expect to find it buried years later as you suggested.

Yes, I understand your point.

My point--the one made in the initial post--is that if money could "self bury" then newspapers, magazines and the like--which I refer to as "loosely similar" should also be able to "self bury." A magazine or a newspaper may not last as long as currency, nonetheless, it will last for a while...

...therefore, it is reasonable to assume that other items such as magazines, newspapers and the like would have also been found buried.

Cheers!

Not so sure about that assumption, paper degrades fast in that environment, it may not have time to "self bury". If it came from the river it would already be mush..
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on August 04, 2018, 05:21:06 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...

Semantics. You understand my point?

It is not semantics - it is FACT. Big difference in decomposition factors between paper and currency which is a CLOTH! Like the difference between a musk melon and a 57 chevy left in nature top decompose! Get your facts straight for a change? Facts matter in this business. Without the basic facts its all hot air and suppositions and FAKE news.

Come on now. Don't be THAT guy. You know, the guy who argues that a "yellow" light is not really "yellow" but actually "amber."

I think you miss the point,, paper wouldn't last very long (vs money) in that environment and you wouldn't expect to find it buried years later as you suggested.

Yes, I understand your point.

My point--the one made in the initial post--is that if money could "self bury" then newspapers, magazines and the like--which I refer to as "loosely similar" should also be able to "self bury." A magazine or a newspaper may not last as long as currency, nonetheless, it will last for a while...

...therefore, it is reasonable to assume that other items such as magazines, newspapers and the like would have also been found buried.

Cheers!

Not so sure about that assumption, paper degrades fast in that environment, it may not have time to "self bury". If it came from the river it would already be mush..

It doesn't have to come from the river. I'm talking anything left behind by previous Tena Bar visitors. As we all know, some people are pigs--my apologies to pigs--and leave trash behind. I'm certain more than one discarded KFC bucket, without the chicken, has been left behind. Or, some manner of heavy paper type packaging has been left behind. All of this stuff would merely wash down stream as would money.

That said, in the case of Cooper's ransom, it didn't wash downstream...it was buried.

The question then becomes: Was the money self-buried or intentionally buried. My vote is for the latter.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on August 04, 2018, 06:47:03 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...

Semantics. You understand my point?

It is not semantics - it is FACT. Big difference in decomposition factors between paper and currency which is a CLOTH! Like the difference between a musk melon and a 57 chevy left in nature top decompose! Get your facts straight for a change? Facts matter in this business. Without the basic facts its all hot air and suppositions and FAKE news.

Come on now. Don't be THAT guy. You know, the guy who argues that a "yellow" light is not really "yellow" but actually "amber."

No That guy. Socalled paper currency is actually cloth. Look it up since you dont know the difference. Decomp time follows accordingly.

This is a total waste of time debating basic facts of reality!
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on August 04, 2018, 06:51:05 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...

Semantics. You understand my point?

It is not semantics - it is FACT. Big difference in decomposition factors between paper and currency which is a CLOTH! Like the difference between a musk melon and a 57 chevy left in nature top decompose! Get your facts straight for a change? Facts matter in this business. Without the basic facts its all hot air and suppositions and FAKE news.

Come on now. Don't be THAT guy. You know, the guy who argues that a "yellow" light is not really "yellow" but actually "amber."

I think you miss the point,, paper wouldn't last very long (vs money) in that environment and you wouldn't expect to find it buried years later as you suggested.

Yes, I understand your point.

My point--the one made in the initial post--is that if money could "self bury" then newspapers, magazines and the like--which I refer to as "loosely similar" should also be able to "self bury." A magazine or a newspaper may not last as long as currency, nonetheless, it will last for a while...

...therefore, it is reasonable to assume that other items such as magazines, newspapers and the like would have also been found buried.

Cheers!

Not so sure about that assumption, paper degrades fast in that environment, it may not have time to "self bury". If it came from the river it would already be mush..

It doesn't have to come from the river. I'm talking anything left behind by previous Tena Bar visitors. As we all know, some people are pigs--my apologies to pigs--and leave trash behind. I'm certain more than one discarded KFC bucket, without the chicken, has been left behind. Or, some manner of heavy paper type packaging has been left behind. All of this stuff would merely wash down stream as would money.

That said, in the case of Cooper's ransom, it didn't wash downstream...it was buried.

The question then becomes: Was the money self-buried or intentionally buried. My vote is for the latter.

Buried no doubt by the money burial Leprechawns. Palmer found them in layer 15 underneath the KFC buckets containing fresh chicken nuggets! Its all in the Sasquatch Report.

Yepper!   Tom found chicken tenders sticking to the bills transported in a KFC bucket.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on August 04, 2018, 07:32:51 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...

Semantics. You understand my point?

It is not semantics - it is FACT. Big difference in decomposition factors between paper and currency which is a CLOTH! Like the difference between a musk melon and a 57 chevy left in nature top decompose! Get your facts straight for a change? Facts matter in this business. Without the basic facts its all hot air and suppositions and FAKE news.

Come on now. Don't be THAT guy. You know, the guy who argues that a "yellow" light is not really "yellow" but actually "amber."

I think you miss the point,, paper wouldn't last very long (vs money) in that environment and you wouldn't expect to find it buried years later as you suggested.

Yes, I understand your point.

My point--the one made in the initial post--is that if money could "self bury" then newspapers, magazines and the like--which I refer to as "loosely similar" should also be able to "self bury." A magazine or a newspaper may not last as long as currency, nonetheless, it will last for a while...

...therefore, it is reasonable to assume that other items such as magazines, newspapers and the like would have also been found buried.

Cheers!

Not so sure about that assumption, paper degrades fast in that environment, it may not have time to "self bury". If it came from the river it would already be mush..

It doesn't have to come from the river. I'm talking anything left behind by previous Tena Bar visitors. As we all know, some people are pigs--my apologies to pigs--and leave trash behind. I'm certain more than one discarded KFC bucket, without the chicken, has been left behind. Or, some manner of heavy paper type packaging has been left behind. All of this stuff would merely wash down stream as would money.

That said, in the case of Cooper's ransom, it didn't wash downstream...it was buried.

The question then becomes: Was the money self-buried or intentionally buried. My vote is for the latter.

Buried no doubt by the money burial Leprechawns. Palmer found them in layer 15 underneath the KFC buckets containing fresh chicken nuggets! Its all in the Sasquatch Report.

Yepper!   Tom found chicken tenders sticking to the bills transported in a KFC bucket.

What the hell is a Leprechawn?
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on August 04, 2018, 11:33:36 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...

Semantics. You understand my point?

It is not semantics - it is FACT. Big difference in decomposition factors between paper and currency which is a CLOTH! Like the difference between a musk melon and a 57 chevy left in nature top decompose! Get your facts straight for a change? Facts matter in this business. Without the basic facts its all hot air and suppositions and FAKE news.

Come on now. Don't be THAT guy. You know, the guy who argues that a "yellow" light is not really "yellow" but actually "amber."

I think you miss the point,, paper wouldn't last very long (vs money) in that environment and you wouldn't expect to find it buried years later as you suggested.

Yes, I understand your point.

My point--the one made in the initial post--is that if money could "self bury" then newspapers, magazines and the like--which I refer to as "loosely similar" should also be able to "self bury." A magazine or a newspaper may not last as long as currency, nonetheless, it will last for a while...

...therefore, it is reasonable to assume that other items such as magazines, newspapers and the like would have also been found buried.

Cheers!

Not so sure about that assumption, paper degrades fast in that environment, it may not have time to "self bury". If it came from the river it would already be mush..

It doesn't have to come from the river. I'm talking anything left behind by previous Tena Bar visitors. As we all know, some people are pigs--my apologies to pigs--and leave trash behind. I'm certain more than one discarded KFC bucket, without the chicken, has been left behind. Or, some manner of heavy paper type packaging has been left behind. All of this stuff would merely wash down stream as would money.

That said, in the case of Cooper's ransom, it didn't wash downstream...it was buried.

The question then becomes: Was the money self-buried or intentionally buried. My vote is for the latter.

Buried no doubt by the money burial Leprechawns. Palmer found them in layer 15 underneath the KFC buckets containing fresh chicken nuggets! Its all in the Sasquatch Report.

Yepper!   Tom found chicken tenders sticking to the bills transported in a KFC bucket.

What the hell is a Leprechawn?

cant look up a word?

http://www.finedictionary.com/Leprechawn.html

If that failed try this:

https://www.wordplays.com/definition/leprechawn

Tomorrow is a brand new day and you are on your own! Bye!  :congrats:


Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on August 05, 2018, 12:09:13 AM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...

Semantics. You understand my point?

It is not semantics - it is FACT. Big difference in decomposition factors between paper and currency which is a CLOTH! Like the difference between a musk melon and a 57 chevy left in nature top decompose! Get your facts straight for a change? Facts matter in this business. Without the basic facts its all hot air and suppositions and FAKE news.

Come on now. Don't be THAT guy. You know, the guy who argues that a "yellow" light is not really "yellow" but actually "amber."

I think you miss the point,, paper wouldn't last very long (vs money) in that environment and you wouldn't expect to find it buried years later as you suggested.

Yes, I understand your point.

My point--the one made in the initial post--is that if money could "self bury" then newspapers, magazines and the like--which I refer to as "loosely similar" should also be able to "self bury." A magazine or a newspaper may not last as long as currency, nonetheless, it will last for a while...

...therefore, it is reasonable to assume that other items such as magazines, newspapers and the like would have also been found buried.

Cheers!

Not so sure about that assumption, paper degrades fast in that environment, it may not have time to "self bury". If it came from the river it would already be mush..

It doesn't have to come from the river. I'm talking anything left behind by previous Tena Bar visitors. As we all know, some people are pigs--my apologies to pigs--and leave trash behind. I'm certain more than one discarded KFC bucket, without the chicken, has been left behind. Or, some manner of heavy paper type packaging has been left behind. All of this stuff would merely wash down stream as would money.

That said, in the case of Cooper's ransom, it didn't wash downstream...it was buried.

The question then becomes: Was the money self-buried or intentionally buried. My vote is for the latter.

Buried no doubt by the money burial Leprechawns. Palmer found them in layer 15 underneath the KFC buckets containing fresh chicken nuggets! Its all in the Sasquatch Report.

Yepper!   Tom found chicken tenders sticking to the bills transported in a KFC bucket.

What the hell is a Leprechawn?

cant look up a word?

http://www.finedictionary.com/Leprechawn.html

If that failed try this:

https://www.wordplays.com/definition/leprechawn

Tomorrow is a brand new day and you are on your own! Bye!  :congrats:

I see...

Leprechaun is to Leprechawn..

as Yellow is to Amber...

as Paper Money is to Cotton/Linen Blend Money.

I assume Leprechawns are Jade?

Cheers!
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: MeyerLouie on August 06, 2018, 07:11:38 AM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...


Correct FLYJACK, cotton/linen paper currency would not deteriorate like the other items mentioned...newspapers, magazines, paper plates.  I still can't believe EU thinks it was a bury at Tina Bar, in spite of the overwhelming reality of all them shards.  Believe something not quite there in spite of the evidence to the contrary -- that's been going on around here for quite some time now.

Meyer
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on August 06, 2018, 12:03:10 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...


Correct FLYJACK, cotton/linen paper currency would not deteriorate like the other items mentioned...newspapers, magazines, paper plates.  I still can't believe EU thinks it was a bury at Tina Bar, in spite of the overwhelming reality of all them shards.  Believe something not quite there in spite of the evidence to the contrary -- that's been going on around here for quite some time now.

Meyer

Indeed, I'm firmly planting my flag in the "Sheridan Peterson buried--and later recovered--the money at Tena Bar" camp.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: FLYJACK on August 06, 2018, 12:05:06 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...


Correct FLYJACK, cotton/linen paper currency would not deteriorate like the other items mentioned...newspapers, magazines, paper plates.  I still can't believe EU thinks it was a bury at Tina Bar, in spite of the overwhelming reality of all them shards.  Believe something not quite there in spite of the evidence to the contrary -- that's been going on around here for quite some time now.

Meyer

Indeed, I'm firmly planting my flag in the "Sheridan Peterson buried--and later recovered--the money at Tena Bar" camp.

Just don't use the paper comp, it doesn't help your theory.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on August 06, 2018, 01:14:30 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...


Correct FLYJACK, cotton/linen paper currency would not deteriorate like the other items mentioned...newspapers, magazines, paper plates.  I still can't believe EU thinks it was a bury at Tina Bar, in spite of the overwhelming reality of all them shards.  Believe something not quite there in spite of the evidence to the contrary -- that's been going on around here for quite some time now.

Meyer

Indeed, I'm firmly planting my flag in the "Sheridan Peterson buried--and later recovered--the money at Tena Bar" camp.

Case solved 8/7/2018 by EU ........ after he previously solved the case under the name GreyCop, at Vancouver?

Shuts down all discussion just as before.

 :conspiracy:

 
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on August 06, 2018, 01:15:39 PM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...


Correct FLYJACK, cotton/linen paper currency would not deteriorate like the other items mentioned...newspapers, magazines, paper plates.  I still can't believe EU thinks it was a bury at Tina Bar, in spite of the overwhelming reality of all them shards.  Believe something not quite there in spite of the evidence to the contrary -- that's been going on around here for quite some time now.

Meyer

Indeed, I'm firmly planting my flag in the "Sheridan Peterson buried--and later recovered--the money at Tena Bar" camp.

Your GreyCop flag?  How is Vancouver today?  Sunny? Realty moving? When did you decide to come back to DB Cooper forums and tie things up a second time? Will this last more than a year?

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on August 06, 2018, 01:50:00 PM
Don't be a hater georger. Take a deep breath. Smile a little. Life is good.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on August 06, 2018, 02:38:58 PM
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Don't be a hater georger. Take a deep breath. Smile a little. Life is good.

So GREYCOP .... now that you are here as EU, how's it going there in Vancouver. Seen any UFO's lately?

You take a deep breath, GREYCOP!

Whats your plan, Hombre?  Tie us up for months like you did Dropzone?  With shit like: "Don't be a hater georger. Take a deep breath. Smile a little. Life is good."

When will you announce again you have solved the case!? Do you plan new press releases? From Wackoville at Vancouver? How long did you think you could get away with this and fool people? You do have no shame so we have to assume you are here until kicked off - good luck with that GreyCop. 

Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on August 06, 2018, 03:10:36 PM
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Don't be a hater georger. Take a deep breath. Smile a little. Life is good.

So GREYCOP .... now that you are here as EU, how's it going there in Vancouver. Seen any UFO's lately?

You take a deep breath, GREYCOP!

Whats your plan, Hombre?  Tie us up for months like you did Dropzone?  With shit like: "Don't be a hater georger. Take a deep breath. Smile a little. Life is good."

When will you announce again you have solved the case!? Do you plan new press releases? From Wackoville at Vancouver? How long did you think you could get away with this and fool people? You do have no shame so we have to assume you are here until kicked off - good luck with that GreyCop.

Georger you certainly make this forum interesting. Even with the insults you hurl I still like you...and everyone else for that matter.

Sorry to disappoint, I am not, nor have I ever been, GreyCop. However, I am a wagering man and I see an opportunity. I suggest that if you're really certain that you're right about me being GreyCop that we place a "$100 charity-of-our-choice" wager on this. In other words, when you lose, you donate $100 to the legitimate charity of my choice. Obviously, Shutter should be able to verify whether I am GreyCop or not.

Your move.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 06, 2018, 04:05:10 PM
Or check the videos. I've met Grey Cop, and I've seen Eric's videos. Two different guys.

Pay Up, G.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Shutter on August 06, 2018, 04:16:25 PM
Greycup can't spell worth a shit..his grammar is 20 times worse than mine. he would have trouble posing as a 6 year old..he always puts Eng. and Carr into his comments stating they both told him he was right about Christiansen. he's just not smart enough to hide his identity..
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Robert99 on August 06, 2018, 10:47:14 PM
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Don't be a hater georger. Take a deep breath. Smile a little. Life is good.

So GREYCOP .... now that you are here as EU, how's it going there in Vancouver. Seen any UFO's lately?

You take a deep breath, GREYCOP!

Whats your plan, Hombre?  Tie us up for months like you did Dropzone?  With shit like: "Don't be a hater georger. Take a deep breath. Smile a little. Life is good."

When will you announce again you have solved the case!? Do you plan new press releases? From Wackoville at Vancouver? How long did you think you could get away with this and fool people? You do have no shame so we have to assume you are here until kicked off - good luck with that GreyCop.

Georger you certainly make this forum interesting. Even with the insults you hurl I still like you...and everyone else for that matter.

Sorry to disappoint, I am not, nor have I ever been, GreyCop. However, I am a wagering man and I see an opportunity. I suggest that if you're really certain that you're right about me being GreyCop that we place a "$100 charity-of-our-choice" wager on this. In other words, when you lose, you donate $100 to the legitimate charity of my choice. Obviously, Shutter should be able to verify whether I am GreyCop or not.

Your move.

I can also verify that EU is not GreyCop.

Robert99
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Shutter on August 06, 2018, 10:48:45 PM
Quote
"you can't eliminate Hahneman because his passport said 5' 8" (no shoes and rounded/truncated)

Obviously, it was me who started this whole "elimination" thing..I read where the FBI stated he was 5' 8" and that's why I said what I said..Fly kept posting that you can't eliminate on only that over and over...he posted a few things and I stated that I was interested but still had to prove he wasn't 5' 8". I'm sure the FBI looked at him as well, I don't know for sure.

I see a difference in M.O. the use of extreme violence..Cooper was cool as a cucumber. sickness could be a factor but your personality will still come through. I just don't think Cooper would go that route and probably would of been in trouble if he was cornered..one hijacker finally settled for a sandwich  :rofl:

people with suspects change..anger steps in, not everyone does this but more than a couple. Jo gets angry, Nicky and the other guy who's name fails me..Robert Blevins is the king of anger when discussing suspects. Marla Cooper is another..the Peterson gang seems to be peaceful lol..R.I.P. Sail..EU has stepped in and appears to be normal...

cover ups? possible. it appears they did that with the escape from Alcatraz..I bring this up often because I like that case as well. it's another mystery on survival..if the latest story is true the escape was right in front of them..they stole extension cord from the dock and road out on the boat that brought them to Alcatraz..very simple but nobody could of figured it out..even with the cord reported stolen, on an island...reports of a stolen car the next day buried in the archives. a raft found on Angel island..

by the way...the comment was not to anger Flyjack it's what I came to the conclusion of..

Note: I'm not making fun of Sail if anyone reads into it that way...I meant they are a peaceful group..
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on August 06, 2018, 11:26:15 PM
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Don't be a hater georger. Take a deep breath. Smile a little. Life is good.

So GREYCOP .... now that you are here as EU, how's it going there in Vancouver. Seen any UFO's lately?

You take a deep breath, GREYCOP!

Whats your plan, Hombre?  Tie us up for months like you did Dropzone?  With shit like: "Don't be a hater georger. Take a deep breath. Smile a little. Life is good."

When will you announce again you have solved the case!? Do you plan new press releases? From Wackoville at Vancouver? How long did you think you could get away with this and fool people? You do have no shame so we have to assume you are here until kicked off - good luck with that GreyCop.

Georger you certainly make this forum interesting. Even with the insults you hurl I still like you...and everyone else for that matter.

Sorry to disappoint, I am not, nor have I ever been, GreyCop. However, I am a wagering man and I see an opportunity. I suggest that if you're really certain that you're right about me being GreyCop that we place a "$100 charity-of-our-choice" wager on this. In other words, when you lose, you donate $100 to the legitimate charity of my choice. Obviously, Shutter should be able to verify whether I am GreyCop or not.

Your move.

My move? Who is plotting here? Is this some kind of game for you?

Just ignore my posts. People can and will discuss the difference between paper and currency, without your interference or input. Some of us are here to examine the DB Cooper case and for no other reason. Why are you here? Your move.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: MeyerLouie on August 07, 2018, 03:51:57 AM
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I spoke with Richard Fazio a few times over the last few days. He sent me the following picture which he described as the spot where the money was found. The small tree with the stake next to it just north (downriver) of the money find spot provides an excellent marker for identifying the location on old photos. Richard also mentioned that during the annual Spring runoff the entire beach gets washed over by the river.

For those who do not believe that the money was deliberately buried in a hole on Tena Bar it's worth asking: What else was found buried during the FBI dig? Or for that matter, any beach dig. After all, there should be all types of debris such as newspapers, magazines, paper plates (which are loosely similar to currency) buried in the sand from years ago. Certainly money is not the only paper item that would have washed up on Tena Bar over the years.

I suspect there was very little if anything else found because people don't bury such items and such items don't bury themselves for years on a beach prone to significant erosion.

"Paper" currency is not paper, it is a cotton/linen blend. Paper would disintegrate very quickly...


Correct FLYJACK, cotton/linen paper currency would not deteriorate like the other items mentioned...newspapers, magazines, paper plates.  I still can't believe EU thinks it was a bury at Tina Bar, in spite of the overwhelming reality of all them shards.  Believe something not quite there in spite of the evidence to the contrary -- that's been going on around here for quite some time now.

Meyer

Indeed, I'm firmly planting my flag in the "Sheridan Peterson buried--and later recovered--the money at Tena Bar" camp.

Just don't use the paper comp, it doesn't help your theory.



Good one, FLYJACK.   

I rest my case, this EU guy is going to dig in and stand by his theory despite them thar shards getting in the way of his erroneous logic and conclusions.  How many people have tried this approach over the years -- they stick to their theory despite incontrovertible evidence against it?  Keep the faith.

Meyer
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Shutter on August 07, 2018, 09:04:27 PM
Guys....lets give the attacks a break for a while....
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Shutter on August 07, 2018, 10:25:22 PM
Ok, got timed out after posting...

I remove a post due to it being reported. actually, I removed two. the insults have continued for sometime now..taking a poke here and there is usually not bad but it's progressed...before my phone died today I read the post that was removed and will check the comment made about the video on T-bar to see what was said..

we really need to put all of this effort into working together vs against one another..I can't help it if I disagree with someone. I'm nobody, just a guy with a forum. I'm not as involved as I use to be due to my workload. plus, I need a break just as anyone else does sometimes..

I got home a little over an hour ago...emails, PM's, phone messages, hungry, filthy from welding steel etc. trying to sort everything out..it's like I was gone for a week...

Shutter
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Shutter on August 07, 2018, 10:49:19 PM
The agent digging in the background in the B&W photo is the same agent who found the piece of money. it appears he has 3 articles of clothing that can be seen in the screenshot taken from the video. blue, white, and plaid..

this is what I have established so far..
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on August 07, 2018, 11:47:09 PM
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The agent digging in the background in the B&W photo is the same agent who found the piece of money. it appears he has 3 articles of clothing that can be seen in the screenshot taken from the video. blue, white, and plaid..

this is what I have established so far..

Let me go to the KATU frames to make some sense out of this.

I can tell you two things in advance. There are three plaid shirts in the photo below! None of these people is Schreuder who was one of the agents interviewed holding pieces in the video. You can judge the size and depth of the hole in the photo. 

At first glance I believe the red dot agent is the same agent in the second video frame below, based on the pattern on the shirt .............. but Im not 100% sure; that s why I want to go back and look at frames. From the 2nd photo youc an make some judgement about the depth of that hole.
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: Shutter on August 08, 2018, 12:00:04 AM
I don't believe any of them are Schreuder...the pic I posted you can clearly see the same blue ban or long john's...

same dude in the same hole...one's a photo and the other is video..
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: georger on August 08, 2018, 12:37:19 AM
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I don't believe any of them are Schreuder...the pic I posted you can clearly see the same blue ban or long john's...

same dude in the same hole...one's a photo and the other is video..

That's right. Im not even sure which day these photos come from. But, Dorwin was not at Tina Bar after noon of the second day because he got called away to perform his regular duty as a "psych negotiator" in a new emergency that came up] and he only returned to Tina Bar briefly for a visit, before the excavation ended.    In that regard note Dorwin's dress vs everyone else digging. Except for the first day Dorwin was 'on call' and dressed accordingly. Dorwin never had a plaid shirt on at Tina Bar .. he stowed his trench coat at the car and rolled up his sleeves on his white dress shit, took his tie off. His dress was distinctive vs all the crew digging during his whole time at Tina Bar. Supervisory people were in suits.   

Two people showed pieces to the camera man and KATU reporter as they were found. Agent W and then Agent S during the first day. Both were in different places relative to the Ingram find. You can make some judgement about the locations and depth of holes by these video frames. Im not sure Shutter but could that be the angled tree near the Ingram location, up the hill in the background behind Dorwin?

Any contention that only one person (the same person) showed pieces, is just wrong.  And nobody was working in his or her long johns although I am sure a few were tempted!  :)
Title: Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
Post by: EU on August 08, 2018, 12:16:08 PM
I'm not certain what the above discussions are attempting to ascertain. In my previous post I stated the following:

"Also, you should note that the agent (standing near the middle of the picture, wearing a plaid shirt, with dark brown hair, turned away