Author Topic: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation  (Read 35718 times)

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #870 on: February 03, 2019, 03:43:40 AM »
The e-book version of DB Cooper and FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking is available at Amazon. 10 bucks.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 03:50:39 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #871 on: February 03, 2019, 03:49:31 AM »
What Did Larry Carr Know?

I think he knew a lot, and certainly read a lot of the files, but there are lots of gaps in his knowledge. More importantly, I don't think he understood some of what he was reading and didn't pick up the many contradictions in the documents - such as where everyone was sitting, or the whole parachute controversy with Cossey and Hayden.

Larry Carr also has some very simplistic ideas about Cooper. The whole wind-chill-tumble-bumble-crater scenario he poses on Cooper's jump has no empirical findings to support it.

He also didn't seem very upset about lost cigarettes, nor did he get very excited about tie particles, although those findings were at the end of his tenure.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 03:50:04 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline georger

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #872 on: February 03, 2019, 12:01:43 PM »
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What Did Larry Carr Know?

I think he knew a lot, and certainly read a lot of the files, but there are lots of gaps in his knowledge. More importantly, I don't think he understood some of what he was reading and didn't pick up the many contradictions in the documents - such as where everyone was sitting, or the whole parachute controversy with Cossey and Hayden.

Larry Carr also has some very simplistic ideas about Cooper. The whole wind-chill-tumble-bumble-crater scenario he poses on Cooper's jump has no empirical findings to support it.

He also didn't seem very upset about lost cigarettes, nor did he get very excited about tie particles, although those findings were at the end of his tenure.

All of the above is of course, your opinion/evaluation. One wonders what Carr and his colleagues would say about you and your work, or whatever it is?

You have a wealth of publications and opinion pieces at your website, but no index, search feature,  or catalog to find anything, or am I missing something? One could literally spend hours/days/weeks... looking for your article on cow mutilations in parachutes, or am I missing something there? Where does one find your article on Barb Dayton and cow mutilations or is there one?

Where did Carr and the FBI fail you and your like-minded fans, and the Cooper case so miserably? Can the damage be repaired? When this case is handed off to the Smithsonian what are your expectations of them? Will you work with the Smithsonian?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 04:00:35 PM by georger »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #873 on: February 03, 2019, 04:11:07 PM »
I do not interpret Bruce's comments as pointing to a failure of the FBI or Larry Carr.  Who knows more about the case than you all?  I'd say no one.  Those agents most likely had many other cases to handle at the same time, and personal lives, and they were moved from field office to field office.  We also don't know everything they knew or know.  However, the reality is that the expertise on the Cooper case is almost 100% located on this site, and in the brains of just a few people (Bruce and Georger being two of those, even though they might not always agree with each other).  Who besides those on this site have been able to follow the case for so many years, and be right there when new information comes out (302's), internet info, etc.?  I'm not blowing smoke, just saying that this group here probably has the best idea of the details, and the context of the case, as well as the time and motivation to research it and talk about it.

I do believe the FBI still has "holdbacks" (info they have not released), so with that possibility, then maybe LC may be the one who knows the most and can therefore make judgments that seem unusual to us.  Maybe someday when he retires (which has to be soon), he will write a book and we will get some tidbits.  Fingers crossed.

Speaking of holdbacks, when was the info about him leaving the the clip-on tie on the plane released to the public?
 
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Offline georger

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #874 on: February 04, 2019, 12:17:33 AM »
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I do not interpret Bruce's comments as pointing to a failure of the FBI or Larry Carr.  Who knows more about the case than you all?  I'd say no one.  Those agents most likely had many other cases to handle at the same time, and personal lives, and they were moved from field office to field office.  We also don't know everything they knew or know.  However, the reality is that the expertise on the Cooper case is almost 100% located on this site, and in the brains of just a few people (Bruce and Georger being two of those, even though they might not always agree with each other).  Who besides those on this site have been able to follow the case for so many years, and be right there when new information comes out (302's), internet info, etc.?  I'm not blowing smoke, just saying that this group here probably has the best idea of the details, and the context of the case, as well as the time and motivation to research it and talk about it.

I do believe the FBI still has "holdbacks" (info they have not released), so with that possibility, then maybe LC may be the one who knows the most and can therefore make judgments that seem unusual to us.  Maybe someday when he retires (which has to be soon), he will write a book and we will get some tidbits.  Fingers crossed.

Speaking of holdbacks, when was the info about him leaving the the clip-on tie on the plane released to the public?

Thanks. I share your interpretation. Thanks again.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #875 on: February 04, 2019, 03:37:40 AM »
Larry Carr Redux

Larry's blind spot on the parachutes is huge. He seems to have swallowed the Earl Cossey Kool-Aide in toto. He stated his support of Coss and his silly theories of NB-6, NB-8, overstuff, delivery to a wrong airport, etc., completely on the DZ, and never discussed Norman Hayden at all. That absence makes me wonder if he even read some of the 302s that we have been reading that discuss these issues.

He also didn't seem to discuss these findings with Geoffrey Gray, who spilled the beans on Hayden in 2011, but GG was researching this stuff prior to Carr's departure from Seattle, so one wonders what they actually talked about.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 03:44:15 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #876 on: February 04, 2019, 03:46:16 AM »
Georger, the paper book has a full index. The Mountain News has a search function, I believe, and it has a category selector. That's the best I can do.

E-Books do not have indices due to the variability of page numbers due to the vagaries of devices, and font size selection by the reader.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 03:47:01 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline georger

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #877 on: February 04, 2019, 05:23:53 AM »
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Larry Carr Redux

Larry's blind spot on the parachutes is huge. He seems to have swallowed the Earl Cossey Kool-Aide in toto. He stated his support of Coss and his silly theories of NB-6, NB-8, overstuff, delivery to a wrong airport, etc., completely on the DZ, and never discussed Norman Hayden at all. That absence makes me wonder if he even read some of the 302s that we have been reading that discuss these issues.

He also didn't seem to discuss these findings with Geoffrey Gray, who spilled the beans on Hayden in 2011, but GG was researching this stuff prior to Carr's departure from Seattle, so one wonders what they actually talked about.

... which raises the question about HOW the Cooper case files were organised at Seattle? Carr, Kaye, and Gray would know because they worked with them. Gray and Kaye were not allowed to 'see' the suspect files so evidently suspect files were separate, somehow. Were the files organised chronologically, by subject, or something else? Ckret's lapse on the chutes makes me wonder where those files were that Larry missed them while Gray saw and copied them? Did Kaye see the same chute files that Gray saw? My impression is Carr reviewed files on his own time often late at night, after a day's work. Days would pass when he simply didn't have the time. His first priority was his regular duties, in the robbery div I believe? 

BTW, the WSHM made a pdf of all Ckret posts he made at Dropzone. That pdf is available. There are actually two versions of it... maybe Shutter has a copy in the Vault?   
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 05:29:33 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #878 on: February 04, 2019, 05:58:35 PM »
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Larry Carr Redux

Larry's blind spot on the parachutes is huge. He seems to have swallowed the Earl Cossey Kool-Aide in toto. He stated his support of Coss and his silly theories of NB-6, NB-8, overstuff, delivery to a wrong airport, etc., completely on the DZ, and never discussed Norman Hayden at all. That absence makes me wonder if he even read some of the 302s that we have been reading that discuss these issues.

He also didn't seem to discuss these findings with Geoffrey Gray, who spilled the beans on Hayden in 2011, but GG was researching this stuff prior to Carr's departure from Seattle, so one wonders what they actually talked about.

How important are the PARACHUTES! in this case. ?  I could care less about who owned them! I could care less about the social media morass about Cossey's social assets or lack of same! Just as I could care less abou6t cow mutilations?  :rofl: 

Cooper exercised a plan right from the start through to his leaving by parachute. Since no body or artifacts were ever found that stacks the odds in favor of him landing somewhere (uninjured?). The one break in the graph to a clean escape is the money find at Tina Bar. I cant see Cooper losing any money without there being a problem. Maybe Cooper's parachute didn't work? That option brings things back to .... PARACHUTES!  :nono:   
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 06:00:01 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #879 on: February 04, 2019, 06:57:33 PM »
The Importance of the Parachutes

To me, the parachutes are a secondary piece of evidence, compared to the money find and the tie particles.

But what is more important is what Larry Carr and other FBI officials say about the parachutes. Their commentary is crucial. Also, their relationship with Earl Cossey.

To me, it seems clear that Carr's knowledge of the case was limited. How and why Gray found stuff that Carr didn't know about is troubling and mind-boggling. Added to other mysteries, such as the role of the FBI agent from LA, Jeremy Blauser, who operated out of Tacoma

BTW, Georger, I've never heard anyone else suggest that Larry Carr had a gig other than Norjak.
 

Offline georger

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #880 on: February 04, 2019, 11:30:39 PM »
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The Importance of the Parachutes

To me, the parachutes are a secondary piece of evidence, compared to the money find and the tie particles.

But what is more important is what Larry Carr and other FBI officials say about the parachutes. Their commentary is crucial. Also, their relationship with Earl Cossey.

To me, it seems clear that Carr's knowledge of the case was limited. How and why Gray found stuff that Carr didn't know about is troubling and mind-boggling. Added to other mysteries, such as the role of the FBI agent from LA, Jeremy Blauser, who operated out of Tacoma

BTW, Georger, I've never heard anyone else suggest that Larry Carr had a gig other than Norjak.

/BTW, Georger, I've never heard anyone else suggest that Larry Carr had a gig other than Norjak./

Really!  Anyone must be badly un-informed! See August 25, 2009. 

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There are public photos of Ckret on duty during a bank robbery, during the same period he was working on NORJAK. In the public media.  Go fetch!

Start with this one from 2008. This is a giant clue.  ;)

In 2006 prior to any formal involvement with NORJAK Larry worked the Violent Crimes Task Force in the Seattle Office, as per this attached. 
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 01:40:25 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #881 on: February 04, 2019, 11:45:45 PM »
FBI Agent Wants Dress Code at Bank

    Download

    Transcript

September 20, 2007 6:00 AM ET    [note this date!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]
Heard on Morning Edition

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« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 12:23:11 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #882 on: February 04, 2019, 11:49:53 PM »
posted by Tom Kaye quote -

Decades passed, D.B. Cooper became famous in book, movie and song. In 2007, Special Agent Larry Carr took on his favorite case with the restriction not to waste government time or money pursuing it. Agent Carr brilliantly decided the way around the problem was to treat the hijacking like one of his bank robbery cases - to get as much information out to the public as possible. He released previously unknown facts about the case and the D.B. Cooper frenzy started anew. In 2008 the Cooper Research Team came together to take up the challenge and was given special access to investigate the case. This website is the result of that three year investigation.

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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #883 on: February 05, 2019, 01:51:41 AM »
Yes, it appears that Larry Carr did more than just Norjak during his Seattle tenure.
 

Offline 377

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #884 on: February 05, 2019, 01:12:03 PM »
Bruce wrote: "Larry Carr also has some very simplistic ideas about Cooper. The whole wind-chill-tumble-bumble-crater scenario he poses on Cooper's jump has no empirical findings to support it."

If Cooper pulled the ripcord while on the stairs he'd have a graceful exit and surprisingly low opening shock (see the SAT Korat 727 jump videos).

If he went into freefall and started spinning and tumbling it wouldn't necessarily be fatal.

When I trained for freefall in 1968 I was on my own. There were no tandem jumps or assisted freefall with instructors holding onto you. Many times I went into wild accelerating spin/tumbles before I finally learned how to do stable freefall. I pulled (as instructed) in these wild tumbles thinking that I'd likely end up wrapped up in a fatal mess of tangled lines and canopy fabric but, to my immense relief, I got a clean opening every time.

All Cooper needed to do to land alive was pull the main ripcord and not land in power lines or water deep enough for drowning. Even if he landed on a rocky slope or in tall trees it probably would not kill him.

Cooper knew enough about chutes to ignore the instructions that the FBI provided. Was he an expert? Not enough info to know for sure. If he pulled a packing card I'd revise my opinion, but that card pull is a disputed fact.

377
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 01:13:11 PM by 377 »
 
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