Author Topic: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation  (Read 10783 times)

Robert99

  • Guest
Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #420 on: August 18, 2018, 12:58:14 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Itís seems that there are several things I know and apparently someone else on this forum isnít aware of. In 1971 if you rode a bike, walked or flew a plane right along I 5, you would notice that downtown City center of Both Vancouver and Portland were WEST of the freeway and the Portland airport and Portland Airbase is East of the freeway ! Itís a FACT that itís was very possible to see the lights of Portland and Vancouver out of a pilots RIGHT window and still be well within the city of Portland city limits and also WEST of the airport ! Portland is a very large city and extends East and West for many miles ! Did this know it all know that Portlandís Forest Park is one of the biggest Parks in the continental United States?

The airliner passed well west of Interstate 5 and Portland/Vancouver.  This has been discussed on this site repeatedly and elsewhere and, if you have been paying attention, you know where to find the detailed information about the airliner's probable flight path in the Portland/Vancouver area. 

And when bypassing Portland on the west side and in the "surburbs of Portland/Vancouver", at least until getting south of the Columbia River, Rataczak could look through the
window directly in front of him and see Portland on his left side.  But the only thing he would be able to see through the side window at his right shoulder is the area in Oregon northwest of Portland.

And keeping in mind that the airliner was at 10,000 feet and above an overcast and several additional cloud layers, it is highly unlikely that Rataczak could see the ground although the glow from the lights in both Oregon and Washington would probably be visible to him.  This would preclude him from determining his position based on visual sightings alone.
 

MeyerLouie

  • Guest
Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #421 on: August 18, 2018, 05:20:11 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Itís seems that there are several things I know and apparently someone else on this forum isnít aware of. In 1971 if you rode a bike, walked or flew a plane right along I 5, you would notice that downtown City center of Both Vancouver and Portland were WEST of the freeway and the Portland airport and Portland Airbase is East of the freeway ! Itís a FACT that itís was very possible to see the lights of Portland and Vancouver out of a pilots RIGHT window and still be well within the city of Portland city limits and also WEST of the airport ! Portland is a very large city and extends East and West for many miles ! Did this know it all know that Portlandís Forest Park is one of the biggest Parks in the continental United States?

The airliner passed well west of Interstate 5 and Portland/Vancouver.  This has been discussed on this site repeatedly and elsewhere and, if you have been paying attention, you know where to find the detailed information about the airliner's probable flight path in the Portland/Vancouver area. 

And when bypassing Portland on the west side and in the "surburbs of Portland/Vancouver", at least until getting south of the Columbia River, Rataczak could look through the
window directly in front of him and see Portland on his left side.  But the only thing he would be able to see through the side window at his right shoulder is the area in Oregon northwest of Portland.

And keeping in mind that the airliner was at 10,000 feet and above an overcast and several additional cloud layers, it is highly unlikely that Rataczak could see the ground although the glow from the lights in both Oregon and Washington would probably be visible to him.  This would preclude him from determining his position based on visual sightings alone.

I have to agree with R99, I believe 305 flew west of I-5 -- for logical reasons.  Would 305 fly directly over Vancouver or Portland proper?  Not in a 727 with a guy aboard threatening to detonate a bomb on board.  There's no way that happened.  How about the Washougal theory, that the plane flew east of Vancouver/Portland by a lot?  That's where the Cascades Mountains begin and that 10,000 feet of elevation would quickly shrink as the aircraft got closer to the mountains.  The only logical explanation, the only route that makes sense is west of I-5.

And all this talk about Cooper jumping into the thick Pacific NW forest, like around Ariel, WA is totally preposterous.  No way would he risk getting his parachute hung up in the trees or getting himself impaled.  Didn't happen, Cooper was smarter than that.  He could see the lights below.  Even with the cloud cover, he most likely had a pretty good idea of where he was, especially as the aircraft approached the big lights of Vancouver and Portland.  He chose V-23 for a specific reason.  It runs the I-5 corridor, which is pretty free of trees and thickets, especially as you get closer to the I-5 freeway.  He jumped in the valley, not in the trees.

Meyer
 

Offline EU

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 335
  • Thanked: 44 times
Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #422 on: August 18, 2018, 09:26:49 AM »
The truth is that Cooper got very lucky. His only demand was to fly to Reno. In fact, the pilots discussed flying south over the ocean to mitigate the risk for those on the ground. As it were, the pilots opted for V23 which essentially retraced his path back down to Portland.

I've stated many times that I believe the evidence indicates Cooper's original plan was to jump shortly after taking off from Seattle. This makes sense when you consider his attire. It also makes sense when you consider that he presumably had made arrangements in Seattle if, for some reason, he had to abort the hijack attempt and disembark in Seattle--this was a very real possibility if, for example, he couldn't procure a seat in the last row.

I agree with Kermit's original statement that as facts have evolved people's stories have also evolved. That said, the physical evidence, specifically the money find at Tena Bar, indicates a Tena Bar flyover. Also, the fact that the pilots had expressed concern for people on the ground indicates that a "west of Portland/Vancouver" flight path makes sense.

Cheers!
 

Offline FLYJACK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1251
  • Thanked: 75 times
Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #423 on: August 18, 2018, 09:52:14 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The truth is that Cooper got very lucky. His only demand was to fly to Reno. In fact, the pilots discussed flying south over the ocean to mitigate the risk for those on the ground. As it were, the pilots opted for V23 which essentially retraced his path back down to Portland.

I've stated many times that I believe the evidence indicates Cooper's original plan was to jump shortly after taking off from Seattle. This makes sense when you consider his attire. It also makes sense when you consider that he presumably had made arrangements in Seattle if, for some reason, he had to abort the hijack attempt and disembark in Seattle--this was a very real possibility if, for example, he couldn't procure a seat in the last row.

I agree with Kermit's original statement that as facts have evolved people's stories have also evolved. That said, the physical evidence, specifically the money find at Tena Bar, indicates a Tena Bar flyover. Also, the fact that the pilots had expressed concern for people on the ground indicates that a "west of Portland/Vancouver" flight path makes sense.

Cheers!

If one rejects the FBI LZ, let's follow the logic for sake of argument. (My #1 theory is the FBI LZ)

Then, why, for example, couldn't Cooper have jumped in the Willamette Valley and the money came down the Willamette River to land on TBAR. The flightpath basically followed the Willamette through Oregon. In fact, the plane was probably over the Willamette River for more time than any other waterbody, increasing the odds as source for the money. (My #2 theory)

The problem is using the TBAR money location to make a theory fit. There are many scenarios known and unknown that can get the money to TBAR.

Just because the money was found on TBAR doesn't mean Cooper was there and if one rejects the FBI LZ then Cooper could have jumped anywhere on the flightpath.

Even assuming R99's flightpath is correct and the FBI LZ is rejected, Cooper still may have jumped in the Willamette Valley.

.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 09:57:23 AM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline EU

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 335
  • Thanked: 44 times
Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #424 on: August 18, 2018, 10:30:31 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The truth is that Cooper got very lucky. His only demand was to fly to Reno. In fact, the pilots discussed flying south over the ocean to mitigate the risk for those on the ground. As it were, the pilots opted for V23 which essentially retraced his path back down to Portland.

I've stated many times that I believe the evidence indicates Cooper's original plan was to jump shortly after taking off from Seattle. This makes sense when you consider his attire. It also makes sense when you consider that he presumably had made arrangements in Seattle if, for some reason, he had to abort the hijack attempt and disembark in Seattle--this was a very real possibility if, for example, he couldn't procure a seat in the last row.

I agree with Kermit's original statement that as facts have evolved people's stories have also evolved. That said, the physical evidence, specifically the money find at Tena Bar, indicates a Tena Bar flyover. Also, the fact that the pilots had expressed concern for people on the ground indicates that a "west of Portland/Vancouver" flight path makes sense.

Cheers!

If one rejects the FBI LZ, let's follow the logic for sake of argument. (My #1 theory is the FBI LZ)

Then, why, for example, couldn't Cooper have jumped in the Willamette Valley and the money came down the Willamette River to land on TBAR. The flightpath basically followed the Willamette through Oregon. In fact, the plane was probably over the Willamette River for more time than any other waterbody, increasing the odds as source for the money. (My #2 theory)

The problem is using the TBAR money location to make a theory fit. There are many scenarios known and unknown that can get the money to TBAR.

Just because the money was found on TBAR doesn't mean Cooper was there and if one rejects the FBI LZ then Cooper could have jumped anywhere on the flightpath.

Even assuming R99's flightpath is correct and the FBI LZ is rejected, Cooper still may have jumped in the Willamette Valley.

.

Good questions.

To begin, it's a mis-characterizing of the process to suggest that Tena Bar is an attempt to "make a theory fit." The theory is a by-product of the Tena Bar money find, not the other way around.

Regarding your question: "Why, for example, couldn't Cooper have jumped in the Willamette Valley and the money came down the Willamette River to land on TBAR?"

Cooper could have jumped there, or anywhere for that matter, but he didn't. The pressure bump clearly indicates that he jumped at around 8:12PM, and per Robert99's flight path analysis that puts 305 very near Tena Bar.

Concerning the second half of your question about the money floating to Tena Bar: The evidence--per Tom Kaye--clearly demonstrates that the money will sink quickly when placed in the river. Certainly a "brick" of money will sink fast too. A packet, bundle, brick--whatever you want to call it--of money will not float long.

Furthermore, the bank bag, all 19+ lbs of it, also won't float. The bag was not waterproof and was not air tight. The bag would quickly be taken over by water, saturated, and sink to the river's bottom.

Additionally, I have never accepted the notion that the money could find itself to Tena Bar then self bury for years. This is a beach prone to significant erosion. Furthermore, the bag, or packets of cash, arriving on Tena Bar would certainly have been noticed by a passer-by unless it self buried quickly. This simply doesn't pass the smell test.

Finally, I do not believe the bills could have survived the dredging process, rubber bands intact, only to have been spread by a bulldozer. In my diseased mind the most plausible explanation is that the cash was buried by a human.
 

Offline FLYJACK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1251
  • Thanked: 75 times
Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #425 on: August 18, 2018, 10:57:52 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The truth is that Cooper got very lucky. His only demand was to fly to Reno. In fact, the pilots discussed flying south over the ocean to mitigate the risk for those on the ground. As it were, the pilots opted for V23 which essentially retraced his path back down to Portland.

I've stated many times that I believe the evidence indicates Cooper's original plan was to jump shortly after taking off from Seattle. This makes sense when you consider his attire. It also makes sense when you consider that he presumably had made arrangements in Seattle if, for some reason, he had to abort the hijack attempt and disembark in Seattle--this was a very real possibility if, for example, he couldn't procure a seat in the last row.

I agree with Kermit's original statement that as facts have evolved people's stories have also evolved. That said, the physical evidence, specifically the money find at Tena Bar, indicates a Tena Bar flyover. Also, the fact that the pilots had expressed concern for people on the ground indicates that a "west of Portland/Vancouver" flight path makes sense.

Cheers!

If one rejects the FBI LZ, let's follow the logic for sake of argument. (My #1 theory is the FBI LZ)

Then, why, for example, couldn't Cooper have jumped in the Willamette Valley and the money came down the Willamette River to land on TBAR. The flightpath basically followed the Willamette through Oregon. In fact, the plane was probably over the Willamette River for more time than any other waterbody, increasing the odds as source for the money. (My #2 theory)

The problem is using the TBAR money location to make a theory fit. There are many scenarios known and unknown that can get the money to TBAR.

Just because the money was found on TBAR doesn't mean Cooper was there and if one rejects the FBI LZ then Cooper could have jumped anywhere on the flightpath.

Even assuming R99's flightpath is correct and the FBI LZ is rejected, Cooper still may have jumped in the Willamette Valley.

.

Good questions.

To begin, it's a mis-characterizing of the process to suggest that Tena Bar is an attempt to "make a theory fit." The theory is a by-product of the Tena Bar money find, not the other way around.

Regarding your question: "Why, for example, couldn't Cooper have jumped in the Willamette Valley and the money came down the Willamette River to land on TBAR?"

Cooper could have jumped there, or anywhere for that matter, but he didn't. The pressure bump clearly indicates that he jumped at around 8:12PM, and per Robert99's flight path analysis that puts 305 very near Tena Bar.

Concerning the second half of your question about the money floating to Tena Bar: The evidence--per Tom Kaye--clearly demonstrates that the money will sink quickly when placed in the river. Certainly a "brick" of money will sink fast too. A packet, bundle, brick--whatever you want to call it--of money will not float long.

Furthermore, the bank bag, all 19+ lbs of it, also won't float. The bag was not waterproof and was not air tight. The bag would quickly be taken over by water, saturated, and sink to the river's bottom.

Additionally, I have never accepted the notion that the money could find itself to Tena Bar then self bury for years. This is a beach prone to significant erosion. Furthermore, the bag, or packets of cash, arriving on Tena Bar would certainly have been noticed by a passer-by unless it self buried quickly. This simply doesn't pass the smell test.

Finally, I do not believe the bills could have survived the dredging process, rubber bands intact, only to have been spread by a bulldozer. In my diseased mind the most plausible explanation is that the cash was buried by a human.

I was commenting in a general sense that the money find location is used to support alt theories when we don't know how the money got there.

(for sake of arg) Cooper could have walked down the stairs got his bearings and walked back up causing a pressure bump. He jumped later. The pressure bump suggests he jumped around that time but it is not conclusive. Never has been. Tom Kayes tests are not conclusive either. Nothing he did contradicts money landing in the Willamette or Columbia then getting deposited on TBAR. River currents can push objects up from the bottom onto the shore. (I actually have another theory on this)

Money could have self buried, rejecting that is a guess.

I don't accept the suction dredge theory either.

Buried by a human is one theory, but there are many others known and unknown.

 

Robert99

  • Guest
Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #426 on: August 18, 2018, 12:04:07 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The truth is that Cooper got very lucky. His only demand was to fly to Reno. In fact, the pilots discussed flying south over the ocean to mitigate the risk for those on the ground. As it were, the pilots opted for V23 which essentially retraced his path back down to Portland.

I've stated many times that I believe the evidence indicates Cooper's original plan was to jump shortly after taking off from Seattle. This makes sense when you consider his attire. It also makes sense when you consider that he presumably had made arrangements in Seattle if, for some reason, he had to abort the hijack attempt and disembark in Seattle--this was a very real possibility if, for example, he couldn't procure a seat in the last row.

I agree with Kermit's original statement that as facts have evolved people's stories have also evolved. That said, the physical evidence, specifically the money find at Tena Bar, indicates a Tena Bar flyover. Also, the fact that the pilots had expressed concern for people on the ground indicates that a "west of Portland/Vancouver" flight path makes sense.

Cheers!

If one rejects the FBI LZ, let's follow the logic for sake of argument. (My #1 theory is the FBI LZ)

Then, why, for example, couldn't Cooper have jumped in the Willamette Valley and the money came down the Willamette River to land on TBAR. The flightpath basically followed the Willamette through Oregon. In fact, the plane was probably over the Willamette River for more time than any other waterbody, increasing the odds as source for the money. (My #2 theory)

The problem is using the TBAR money location to make a theory fit. There are many scenarios known and unknown that can get the money to TBAR.

Just because the money was found on TBAR doesn't mean Cooper was there and if one rejects the FBI LZ then Cooper could have jumped anywhere on the flightpath.

Even assuming R99's flightpath is correct and the FBI LZ is rejected, Cooper still may have jumped in the Willamette Valley.

.

Cooper's jump time is known to within about one minute and the airliner was no where close to the Willamette Valley when that happened.
 

Offline FLYJACK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1251
  • Thanked: 75 times
Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #427 on: August 18, 2018, 12:07:49 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The truth is that Cooper got very lucky. His only demand was to fly to Reno. In fact, the pilots discussed flying south over the ocean to mitigate the risk for those on the ground. As it were, the pilots opted for V23 which essentially retraced his path back down to Portland.

I've stated many times that I believe the evidence indicates Cooper's original plan was to jump shortly after taking off from Seattle. This makes sense when you consider his attire. It also makes sense when you consider that he presumably had made arrangements in Seattle if, for some reason, he had to abort the hijack attempt and disembark in Seattle--this was a very real possibility if, for example, he couldn't procure a seat in the last row.

I agree with Kermit's original statement that as facts have evolved people's stories have also evolved. That said, the physical evidence, specifically the money find at Tena Bar, indicates a Tena Bar flyover. Also, the fact that the pilots had expressed concern for people on the ground indicates that a "west of Portland/Vancouver" flight path makes sense.

Cheers!

If one rejects the FBI LZ, let's follow the logic for sake of argument. (My #1 theory is the FBI LZ)

Then, why, for example, couldn't Cooper have jumped in the Willamette Valley and the money came down the Willamette River to land on TBAR. The flightpath basically followed the Willamette through Oregon. In fact, the plane was probably over the Willamette River for more time than any other waterbody, increasing the odds as source for the money. (My #2 theory)

The problem is using the TBAR money location to make a theory fit. There are many scenarios known and unknown that can get the money to TBAR.

Just because the money was found on TBAR doesn't mean Cooper was there and if one rejects the FBI LZ then Cooper could have jumped anywhere on the flightpath.

Even assuming R99's flightpath is correct and the FBI LZ is rejected, Cooper still may have jumped in the Willamette Valley.

.

Cooper's jump time is known to within about one minute and the airliner was no where close to the Willamette Valley when that happened.

WRONG..  the jump time is assumed. NOT FACT (though I believe it is most likely)

I was using the Willamette scenario as an example of other theories to make a point, there are more.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 12:14:22 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline EU

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 335
  • Thanked: 44 times
Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #428 on: August 18, 2018, 12:36:28 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

WRONG..  the jump time is assumed. NOT FACT (though I believe it is most likely)


It's important to note that this assumption was not derived in a vacuum. There is evidence to back it up. Specifically:

1) The pressure bump is consistent with the testing conducted by the FBI over the ocean where they dropped a sled.

2) There was not another pressure bump.

3) There was nothing to indicate that Cooper was on the plane at any point after the pressure bump.

4) The time of the pressure bump was noted by the flight crew.

Also, I'm not a big fan of coincidence. That said, wouldn't it be a remarkable coincidence if the pressure bump just happened to occur over Tena Bar which just happened to be where the money was found? At some point the notion becomes foolish.
 

Offline FLYJACK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1251
  • Thanked: 75 times
Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #429 on: August 18, 2018, 12:47:21 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

WRONG..  the jump time is assumed. NOT FACT (though I believe is most likely)


It's important to note that this assumption was not derived in a vacuum. There is evidence to back it up. Specifically:

1) The pressure bump is consistent with the testing conducted by the FBI over the ocean where they dropped a sled.

2) There was not another pressure bump.

3) There was nothing to indicate that Cooper was on the plane at any point after the pressure bump.

4) The time of the pressure bump was noted by the flight crew.

Also, I'm not a big fan of coincidence. That said, wouldn't it be a remarkable coincidence if the pressure bump just happened to occur over Tena Bar which just happened to be where the money was found? At some point the notion becomes foolish.

I am well aware of the "evidence" that is why I believe the time is most likely.

1) There were inconsistencies with the sled test, it isn't conclusive, it is a recreation.

2) Absence of evidence is not evidence, experts were conflicted on the pilots sensations in autopilot.

3) So,,

4) Yes, the rough time was noted, that doesn't prove Cooper actually jumped then, (most likely)


The pressure bump wasn't proven over TBAR, that is a theory which requires an alternate flightpath. It is a circular self confirming argument..  (I am not suggesting it isn't possibe)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 12:55:45 PM by FLYJACK »
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #430 on: August 18, 2018, 03:18:16 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

WRONG..  the jump time is assumed. NOT FACT (though I believe it is most likely)


It's important to note that this assumption was not derived in a vacuum. There is evidence to back it up. Specifically:

1) The pressure bump is consistent with the testing conducted by the FBI over the ocean where they dropped a sled.

2) There was not another pressure bump.

3) There was nothing to indicate that Cooper was on the plane at any point after the pressure bump.

4) The time of the pressure bump was noted by the flight crew.

Also, I'm not a big fan of coincidence. That said, wouldn't it be a remarkable coincidence if the pressure bump just happened to occur over Tena Bar which just happened to be where the money was found? At some point the notion becomes foolish.

with the testing conducted by the FBI    Wrong. The test was conducted by the Tactical Aviation Group (TAG) out of McChord AFB accompanied by an NWA engineer and tech. The FBI had nothing to do with planning or conducting the test but several agents went along for information gathering. The test flight followed pre-flight tests, radar assessment, and other information gathering conducted by UAF specialist units at McChord. This was a coordinated program involving several Air Force units, one of the results of which was the first FBI Search Map (the White map).   

This is all 'in the thread' if you read it.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 03:29:29 PM by georger »
 

Offline Kermit

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
  • Thanked: 49 times
Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #431 on: August 18, 2018, 03:22:58 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Itís seems that there are several things I know and apparently someone else on this forum isnít aware of. In 1971 if you rode a bike, walked or flew a plane right along I 5, you would notice that downtown City center of Both Vancouver and Portland were WEST of the freeway and the Portland airport and Portland Airbase is East of the freeway ! Itís a FACT that itís was very possible to see the lights of Portland and Vancouver out of a pilots RIGHT window and still be well within the city of Portland city limits and also WEST of the airport ! Portland is a very large city and extends East and West for many miles ! Did this know it all know that Portlandís Forest Park is one of the biggest Parks in the continental United States?

The airliner passed well west of Interstate 5 and Portland/Vancouver.  This has been discussed on this site repeatedly and elsewhere and, if you have been paying attention, you know where to find the detailed information about the airliner's probable flight path in the Portland/Vancouver area. 

And when bypassing Portland on the west side and in the "surburbs of Portland/Vancouver", at least until getting south of the Columbia River, Rataczak could look through the
window directly in front of him and see Portland on his left side.  But the only thing he would be able to see through the side window at his right shoulder is the area in Oregon northwest of Portland.

And keeping in mind that the airliner was at 10,000 feet and above an overcast and several additional cloud layers, it is highly unlikely that Rataczak could see the ground although the glow from the lights in both Oregon and Washington would probably be visible to him.  This would preclude him from determining his position based on visual sightings alone.
Iím well aware of your theory ! Itís the Tina Bar NO PULL and we have all read and heard it a thousand times ! However this may come as a shock to you but not everyone here buys into it ! Itís a very good Possibility but in no ways a proven FACT ! Also you choose to ignore the exact words of the co-pilot who was actually aboard flight 305 in 1971. I made a copy of it and it read ď I could see the lights of Vancouver/Portland out of my RIGHT window ď. I know you like to make your own interpretation of his words but those are his words and he was there and you werenít ! Also you choose to deny the weather reports for Nov 24, 1971 because those reports seem to put a huge question into your theory as Rataczak, Scott and Anderson all agreed they saw the lights of Portland ! Even you acknowledged Rataczak statement but you want to argue where he was sitting in plane and what angle or window he was looking out of. Were these Pilots all lying when they apparently could see through the clouds and see the lights of Portland ? Iím waiting on you answer ! I guess Rataczak could see through the clouds but Cooper couldnít for some reason !
 

Offline EU

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 335
  • Thanked: 44 times
Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #432 on: August 18, 2018, 03:42:23 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

WRONG..  the jump time is assumed. NOT FACT (though I believe it is most likely)


It's important to note that this assumption was not derived in a vacuum. There is evidence to back it up. Specifically:

1) The pressure bump is consistent with the testing conducted by the FBI over the ocean where they dropped a sled.

2) There was not another pressure bump.

3) There was nothing to indicate that Cooper was on the plane at any point after the pressure bump.

4) The time of the pressure bump was noted by the flight crew.

Also, I'm not a big fan of coincidence. That said, wouldn't it be a remarkable coincidence if the pressure bump just happened to occur over Tena Bar which just happened to be where the money was found? At some point the notion becomes foolish.

with the testing conducted by the FBI    Wrong. The test was conducted by the Tactical Aviation Group (TAG) out of McChord AFB accompanied by an NWA engineer and tech. The FBI had nothing to do with planning or conducting the test but several agents went along for information gathering. The test flight followed pre-flight tests, radar assessment, and other information gathering conducted by UAF specialist units at McChord. This was a coordinated program involving several Air Force units, one of the results of which was the first FBI Search Map (the White map).   

This is all 'in the thread' if you read it.

A lot of hair splitting going on here.

You've read my post, how does this materially change my point?

Never mind, I'll answer...it doesn't.
 

Offline Kermit

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
  • Thanked: 49 times
Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #433 on: August 18, 2018, 03:49:09 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Itís seems that there are several things I know and apparently someone else on this forum isnít aware of. In 1971 if you rode a bike, walked or flew a plane right along I 5, you would notice that downtown City center of Both Vancouver and Portland were WEST of the freeway and the Portland airport and Portland Airbase is East of the freeway ! Itís a FACT that itís was very possible to see the lights of Portland and Vancouver out of a pilots RIGHT window and still be well within the city of Portland city limits and also WEST of the airport ! Portland is a very large city and extends East and West for many miles ! Did this know it all know that Portlandís Forest Park is one of the biggest Parks in the continental United States?

The airliner passed well west of Interstate 5 and Portland/Vancouver.  This has been discussed on this site repeatedly and elsewhere and, if you have been paying attention, you know where to find the detailed information about the airliner's probable flight path in the Portland/Vancouver area. 

And when bypassing Portland on the west side and in the "surburbs of Portland/Vancouver", at least until getting south of the Columbia River, Rataczak could look through the
window directly in front of him and see Portland on his left side.  But the only thing he would be able to see through the side window at his right shoulder is the area in Oregon northwest of Portland.

And keeping in mind that the airliner was at 10,000 feet and above an overcast and several additional cloud layers, it is highly unlikely that Rataczak could see the ground although the glow from the lights in both Oregon and Washington would probably be visible to him.  This would preclude him from determining his position based on visual sightings alone.

I have to agree with R99, I believe 305 flew west of I-5 -- for logical reasons.  Would 305 fly directly over Vancouver or Portland proper?  Not in a 727 with a guy aboard threatening to detonate a bomb on board.  There's no way that happened.  How about the Washougal theory, that the plane flew east of Vancouver/Portland by a lot?  That's where the Cascades Mountains begin and that 10,000 feet of elevation would quickly shrink as the aircraft got closer to the mountains.  The only logical explanation, the only route that makes sense is west of I-5.

And all this talk about Cooper jumping into the thick Pacific NW forest, like around Ariel, WA is totally preposterous.  No way would he risk getting his parachute hung up in the trees or getting himself impaled.  Didn't happen, Cooper was smarter than that.  He could see the lights below.  Even with the cloud cover, he most likely had a pretty good idea of where he was, especially as the aircraft approached the big lights of Vancouver and Portland.  He chose V-23 for a specific reason.  It runs the I-5 corridor, which is pretty free of trees and thickets, especially as you get closer to the I-5 freeway.  He jumped in the valley, not in the trees.

Meyer
Meyer I think you and I have talked about this before but Iíll go over it as R99 isnít apparently very familiar with Portland and vicinity. I also believe flight 305 didnít want to fly directly over city center Portland and veered to the west but guess what ? Last time I checked Portland downtown was about 8 miles south of the Columbia river. Also Vancouver downtown really wasnít all that populated in 1971 or even today. Lots of the population was in the Hazel Dell area North of Downtown Vancouver. Also R99 likes to say flight 305 was flying WELL west or Portland. Really ? Does he have any idea what lies immediately West of Portland ? I do and itís Beaverton a highly populated city with Lots of sophisticated electronic plants then and now.i know as I built 3 homes on the corner of Oleson road and Miles court. Olison road is the boundary line separating Portland from Beaverton. How far west did flight 305 go ? Lots of people live west of Portland ! You lived out that way didnít you ?
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #434 on: August 18, 2018, 03:55:08 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Itís seems that there are several things I know and apparently someone else on this forum isnít aware of. In 1971 if you rode a bike, walked or flew a plane right along I 5, you would notice that downtown City center of Both Vancouver and Portland were WEST of the freeway and the Portland airport and Portland Airbase is East of the freeway ! Itís a FACT that itís was very possible to see the lights of Portland and Vancouver out of a pilots RIGHT window and still be well within the city of Portland city limits and also WEST of the airport ! Portland is a very large city and extends East and West for many miles ! Did this know it all know that Portlandís Forest Park is one of the biggest Parks in the continental United States?

The airliner passed well west of Interstate 5 and Portland/Vancouver.  This has been discussed on this site repeatedly and elsewhere and, if you have been paying attention, you know where to find the detailed information about the airliner's probable flight path in the Portland/Vancouver area. 

And when bypassing Portland on the west side and in the "surburbs of Portland/Vancouver", at least until getting south of the Columbia River, Rataczak could look through the
window directly in front of him and see Portland on his left side.  But the only thing he would be able to see through the side window at his right shoulder is the area in Oregon northwest of Portland.

And keeping in mind that the airliner was at 10,000 feet and above an overcast and several additional cloud layers, it is highly unlikely that Rataczak could see the ground although the glow from the lights in both Oregon and Washington would probably be visible to him.  This would preclude him from determining his position based on visual sightings alone.
Iím well aware of your theory ! Itís the Tina Bar NO PULL and we have all read and heard it a thousand times ! However this may come as a shock to you but not everyone here buys into it ! Itís a very good Possibility but in no ways a proven FACT ! Also you choose to ignore the exact words of the co-pilot who was actually aboard flight 305 in 1971. I made a copy of it and it read ď I could see the lights of Vancouver/Portland out of my RIGHT window ď. I know you like to make your own interpretation of his words but those are his words and he was there and you werenít ! Also you choose to deny the weather reports for Nov 24, 1971 because those reports seem to put a huge question into your theory as Rataczak, Scott and Anderson all agreed they saw the lights of Portland ! Even you acknowledged Rataczak statement but you want to argue where he was sitting in plane and what angle or window he was looking out of. Were these Pilots all lying when they apparently could see through the clouds and see the lights of Portland ? Iím waiting on you answer ! I guess Rataczak could see through the clouds but Cooper couldnít for some reason !

In addition to that, I throw in an element from Cooper's psyc profile - his first priority was escape (to get back off the plane). That was a higher priority for him than the money! From crew testimony, Cooper was preparing for his escape even before the money was brought on board. His first real opportunity was the Columbia-Portland-Vancouver area and evidence based on his Tacoma sighting is he knew the Portland-Vancouver area. If he chose to wait and made it that far, that's where he tried to jump. It comes down to the timeline of the 'bump' and there is uncertainty associated with that. Money being found at Tena Bar is no mystery given the facts of the flight path; its only a question of how and when. Lab tests on the bills would have been very helpful in connecting these dots and confirming a timeline and direction for everything, but alas those tests have never been run - maybe they could still be run today but the uncertainty factor only grows as years accumulate!