Author Topic: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation  (Read 75468 times)

Offline EU

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #105 on: June 25, 2018, 11:36:39 AM »
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EU/Lynn-If you're related to or connected to Sailshaw or Peterson, that could add some good background to this report.  Maybe it is already in there and we will see it in July.  From what I've seen on the videos, Sheridan Peterson seemed like a great guy to talk to.  He also has done a lot of good things.  Maybe the FBI knows this and does not want to skewer an old man.  How old is he now?

I am not related to Sheridan but I know him. I have talked with him on the phone and communicated with him dozens of times via email. I feel like I understand him about as well as anyone could expect at this point. Sheridan is 92.

Sheridan is a fascinating man, which makes him likable. However, he can be an ass a lot of the time. He has a difficult time getting along with people primarily because he has a problem treating others with respect. I get the distinct impression that he always thinks he's the smartest guy in the room.

I have read many times on this forum how others cannot see Sheridan--Mr. Peace--ever skyjacking an airliner. Knowing him as I do I couldn't disagree more. He has the ideal mindset.

When all is said and done he wants to be remembered as an honorable man. That said, I believe his perception of himself is flawed today and has always been flawed to a degree. To be sure he's done some good things. But, if we're being honest, he carries around a lot of baggage too.

I dig into this in the report because I consider it critical in understanding how Sheridan becomes DB Cooper and pulls it off.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline 377

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #106 on: June 25, 2018, 01:58:08 PM »
Lynn wrote: "Even if the cigarette butts were found tomorrow, they would be inadmissible, having been lost."

Not necessarily. If the FBI could show a continuous unbroken chain of custody, the butts might still be admissible evidence, e.g if they provably remained in a secure evidence locker and were just unnoticed.

377
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 01:58:29 PM by 377 »
 
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Offline fcastle866

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #107 on: June 25, 2018, 02:04:57 PM »
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Lynn wrote: "Even if the cigarette butts were found tomorrow, they would be inadmissible, having been lost."

Not necessarily. If the FBI could show a continuous unbroken chain of custody, the butts might still be admissible evidence, e.g if they provably remained in a secure evidence locker and were just unnoticed.

377

For the lawyers here and those experienced with the system: Is there value in closing the case based off a preponderance of evidence, but actually not indicting or getting a conviction?  Would the FBI be happy to just see a reduction in all these new leads and suspects? For instance, if the DNA on the cigarette butts matched a person, Peterson or anyone, would it help reduce the number of man hours spent on simple things such as responding to a letter, updating the boss, updating a Congressman, etc.?  If a suspect matched the DNA, then every letter from a conspiracy theorist about how their uncle was DB Cooper could be put in a box marked "get to later."  Then they can just let all of us on the board talk through all the scenarios on our own time.
 

Offline EU

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #108 on: June 25, 2018, 02:34:05 PM »
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Lynn wrote: "Even if the cigarette butts were found tomorrow, they would be inadmissible, having been lost."

Not necessarily. If the FBI could show a continuous unbroken chain of custody, the butts might still be admissible evidence, e.g if they provably remained in a secure evidence locker and were just unnoticed.

377

For the lawyers here and those experienced with the system: Is there value in closing the case based off a preponderance of evidence, but actually not indicting or getting a conviction?  Would the FBI be happy to just see a reduction in all these new leads and suspects? For instance, if the DNA on the cigarette butts matched a person, Peterson or anyone, would it help reduce the number of man hours spent on simple things such as responding to a letter, updating the boss, updating a Congressman, etc.?  If a suspect matched the DNA, then every letter from a conspiracy theorist about how their uncle was DB Cooper could be put in a box marked "get to later."  Then they can just let all of us on the board talk through all the scenarios on our own time.

I actually think this is what happened. I maintain that the FBI suspects Sheridan but when presenting what they had in the form of evidence to the Assistant US Attorney, were informed that there simply wasn't enough to prosecute. Remember, the DNA is not admissible.

Additionally, they are obligated to vet all leads that come in regardless of how ridiculous they are. I actually read an FBI file involving a guy who contacted the FBI because he was watching an episode of Perry Mason and thought that one of the supporting actors bore a strong resemblance to the Cooper sketch. Obviously this went nowhere, however, they did have to address it if for no other reason than to write a report.

The FBI has made it clear that they do not have enough evidence to meet the legal threshold of "beyond a reasonable doubt." However, if a Cooper twenty, which bears a one-of-a-kind serial number shows up, that may change things.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline 377

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #109 on: June 25, 2018, 03:57:46 PM »
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377
 
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georger

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #110 on: June 25, 2018, 05:53:48 PM »
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Lynn wrote: "Even if the cigarette butts were found tomorrow, they would be inadmissible, having been lost."

Not necessarily. If the FBI could show a continuous unbroken chain of custody, the butts might still be admissible evidence, e.g if they provably remained in a secure evidence locker and were just unnoticed.

377

I agree. It would help if the dna were pure with no other contributors.
 

georger

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #111 on: June 25, 2018, 06:02:03 PM »
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EU/Lynn-If you're related to or connected to Sailshaw or Peterson, that could add some good background to this report.  Maybe it is already in there and we will see it in July.  From what I've seen on the videos, Sheridan Peterson seemed like a great guy to talk to.  He also has done a lot of good things.  Maybe the FBI knows this and does not want to skewer an old man.  How old is he now?

I am not related to Sheridan but I know him. I have talked with him on the phone and communicated with him dozens of times via email. I feel like I understand him about as well as anyone could expect at this point. Sheridan is 92.

Sheridan is a fascinating man, which makes him likable. However, he can be an ass a lot of the time. He has a difficult time getting along with people primarily because he has a problem treating others with respect. I get the distinct impression that he always thinks he's the smartest guy in the room.

I have read many times on this forum how others cannot see Sheridan--Mr. Peace--ever skyjacking an airliner. Knowing him as I do I couldn't disagree more. He has the ideal mindset.

When all is said and done he wants to be remembered as an honorable man. That said, I believe his perception of himself is flawed today and has always been flawed to a degree. To be sure he's done some good things. But, if we're being honest, he carries around a lot of baggage too.

I dig into this in the report because I consider it critical in understanding how Sheridan becomes DB Cooper and pulls it off.

He fits the protestor profile of the 70s - talked the talk but did he walk the walk, and which walk! Or was it a crawl with a lot of verbiage and fits and starts along the way. He is full of temptation but then withdraws and takes and common path when it matters? He's a tempter - or a windbag depending on how you view it.  :rofl:

The world is full of windbags who had a few glorious moments in their lives. Sheridan strikes me as somebody who chooses survival over his politics, when push comes to shove. His glorious moments are thus preserved to reminisce about so long as he breaths. DB Cooper? No.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 06:19:22 PM by georger »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #112 on: June 26, 2018, 09:16:54 AM »
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Lynn wrote: "Even if the cigarette butts were found tomorrow, they would be inadmissible, having been lost."

Not necessarily. If the FBI could show a continuous unbroken chain of custody, the butts might still be admissible evidence, e.g if they provably remained in a secure evidence locker and were just unnoticed.

377

For the lawyers here and those experienced with the system: Is there value in closing the case based off a preponderance of evidence, but actually not indicting or getting a conviction?  Would the FBI be happy to just see a reduction in all these new leads and suspects? For instance, if the DNA on the cigarette butts matched a person, Peterson or anyone, would it help reduce the number of man hours spent on simple things such as responding to a letter, updating the boss, updating a Congressman, etc.?  If a suspect matched the DNA, then every letter from a conspiracy theorist about how their uncle was DB Cooper could be put in a box marked "get to later."  Then they can just let all of us on the board talk through all the scenarios on our own time.

I actually think this is what happened. I maintain that the FBI suspects Sheridan but when presenting what they had in the form of evidence to the Assistant US Attorney, were informed that there simply wasn't enough to prosecute. Remember, the DNA is not admissible.

Additionally, they are obligated to vet all leads that come in regardless of how ridiculous they are. I actually read an FBI file involving a guy who contacted the FBI because he was watching an episode of Perry Mason and thought that one of the supporting actors bore a strong resemblance to the Cooper sketch. Obviously this went nowhere, however, they did have to address it if for no other reason than to write a report.

The FBI has made it clear that they do not have enough evidence to meet the legal threshold of "beyond a reasonable doubt." However, if a Cooper twenty, which bears a one-of-a-kind serial number shows up, that may change things.

 :rofl: on the Perry Mason story.  I can imagine what it must have been like in 1971 chasing down everyone's leads.
 

Offline RaoulDuke24

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #113 on: June 26, 2018, 03:29:24 PM »
Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

 

Offline EU

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #114 on: June 27, 2018, 11:02:02 AM »
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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georger

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #115 on: June 27, 2018, 01:17:32 PM »
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.

Partial or partials?

Multiple contributors?
 

Offline EU

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #116 on: June 27, 2018, 01:31:11 PM »
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.

Partial or partials?

Multiple contributors?

Yes, yes and yes.

To answer the second question first: Yes there are multiple donors--three--on the tie.

Regarding the first question: All of the DNA related to the three donors is partial.

Finally, there was one donor who contributed saliva to the tie. It is likely that this is Cooper's DNA given it is easy to envision Cooper smoking, drinking or eating and inadvertently contributing the sample.

None of this explains what happened to the cigarette butts and shaft of hair. Or, why the FBI feels certain enough about their partial DNA profile to publicly exclude Weber and LD by virtue of that DNA while avoiding questions about Sheridan's results.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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georger

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #117 on: June 27, 2018, 01:52:25 PM »
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.

Partial or partials?

Multiple contributors?

Yes, yes and yes.

To answer the second question first: Yes there are multiple donors--three--on the tie.

Regarding the first question: All of the DNA related to the three donors is partial.

Finally, there was one donor who contributed saliva to the tie. It is likely that this is Cooper's DNA given it is easy to envision Cooper smoking, drinking or eating and inadvertently contributing the sample.

None of this explains what happened to the cigarette butts and shaft of hair. Or, why the FBI feels certain enough about their partial DNA profile to publicly exclude Weber and LD by virtue of that DNA while avoiding questions about Sheridan's results.

So three donors, each a partial, one partial from saliva, (the other two epithelial cells?), ... so if all three eliminate a person then the person can be said to be 'strongly eliminated' by virtue of three eliminations! ?  :)  If you dont know which sample is Cooper's then you always must test against all three samples.

Any info on confidence levels of each partial?

Oh! and I forgot. If sex of one contributor is known to be female, then AMEL also was tested for and registered on all samples which means they are testing outside of Codis-13 on all samples, up to at least 14 or 15 or more? That would be standard practice and  means .....
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 02:22:06 PM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #118 on: June 27, 2018, 02:33:24 PM »
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.

Partial or partials?

Multiple contributors?

Yes, yes and yes.

To answer the second question first: Yes there are multiple donors--three--on the tie.

Regarding the first question: All of the DNA related to the three donors is partial.

Finally, there was one donor who contributed saliva to the tie. It is likely that this is Cooper's DNA given it is easy to envision Cooper smoking, drinking or eating and inadvertently contributing the sample.

None of this explains what happened to the cigarette butts and shaft of hair. Or, why the FBI feels certain enough about their partial DNA profile to publicly exclude Weber and LD by virtue of that DNA while avoiding questions about Sheridan's results.

So three donors, each a partial, one partial from saliva, (the other two epithelial cells?), ... so if all three eliminate a person then the person can be said to be 'strongly eliminated' by virtue of three eliminations! ?  :)  If you dont know which sample is Cooper's then you always must test against all three samples.

Any info on confidence levels of each partial?

Oh! and I forgot. If sex of one contributor is known to be female, then AMEL also was tested for and registered on all samples which means they are testing outside of Codis-13 on all samples, up to at least 14 or 15 or more? That would be standard practice and  means .....

I have read that one of the donors was female, however, have been unable to confirm that.

I asked the FBI about the confidence level of the DNA, however, was given a response that avoided the question, instead stating the FBI has been unable to come up with evidence meeting the legal threshold of "beyond a reasonable doubt."
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline sry828

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #119 on: June 27, 2018, 03:22:02 PM »
I wonder about how much to value the tie.  I may be way off here, but if I remember correctly, the tie was found sitting on Cooper's seat.  It's tough to have your clip-on tie fall off, and land underneath you, on your seat.  Also, airline rows are cramped.  So, even if he had stood up, and was facing towards his seat, you would think that a guy who is 5'10"-6'0" would have to be hunched over to stand.  Being hunched over, his head would be positioned looking down.  It would be tough not to notice your tie falling off in that scenario.  That makes me think that he purposely took the tie off and left it in the one spot he knew would ensure it would most likely be linked to him before any other passengers.

I know that DNA wasn't something that criminals thought about back then, but could there have been something else about the tie that Cooper thought would lead investigators in the wrong direction?  Maybe he thought they'd be able to pull fingerprints from a used tie, and picked up a tie at a yard sale, or at Goodwill, or something similar.