Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
5 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
3 (6.7%)
35% Cooper lived.
1 (2.2%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
9 (20%)
100 Cooper lived
17 (37.8%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 438022 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5700 on: September 16, 2020, 11:17:48 PM »
10,000 feet would be impossible to track the placard down to the ground...what would be an acceptable height to test. a drone can reach a couple thousand and that's pushing it to it's extreme but could release the placard..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5701 on: September 16, 2020, 11:20:18 PM »
Here is the same drone I have..I have three of these but wouldn't risk this altitude...not legal either.

.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5702 on: September 16, 2020, 11:23:31 PM »
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10,000 feet would be impossible to track the placard down to the ground...what would be an acceptable height to test. a drone can reach a couple thousand and that's pushing it to it's extreme but could release the placard..

Is there a way to attach a very small RFID chip to a placard that can be tracked or located by GPS?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5703 on: September 16, 2020, 11:25:48 PM »
I have no idea...a good set of binoculars should be good enough..I know a couple electronics nuts. let me ask them..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5704 on: September 16, 2020, 11:27:37 PM »
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Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5705 on: September 16, 2020, 11:28:28 PM »
That said, I, as well as a few others, have the CIA report from the '60's, I believe, that analyzes leaflet drops and targeting strategies. The report is completely consistent with leaflets drifting along with the wind for quite a distance.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5706 on: September 16, 2020, 11:36:21 PM »
RFID chips need a scanner I believe...like what's on animals.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5707 on: September 16, 2020, 11:40:07 PM »
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RFID chips need a scanner I believe...like what's on animals.

Sounds like is doable though. As you noted, they track wild animals.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5708 on: September 16, 2020, 11:43:30 PM »
Have to look into the device..if it does't have GPS the only way to get the data is finding the placard. kind of defeats the purpose..need something to track in real time.

smallest bluetooth tracker is bigger than a bottle cap.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 11:44:22 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5709 on: September 16, 2020, 11:47:06 PM »
Got any friends over there at area 51...they will have what's needed... :rofl:
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5710 on: September 17, 2020, 01:09:54 AM »
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If the aircraft was just a few miles east of this proposed flight path, you would be right over Vancouver and Portland. Regardless, this path still flies over suburban Portland. If the goal was to avoid major cities and populated areas while still flying west, it would make more sense to hug the coast and make a sharp turn between Portland/Salem or Salem/Eugene.

Yes, the pilots considered flying over the Pacific but ultimately decided against it. Perhaps they reasoned that DBC would consider such a move "funny stuff."

I spoke with Capt. Scott's daughter about this and she stated that knowing her father, he would have done his best to avoid flying directly over populated areas. Indeed, by flying west of downtown Portland, Capt. Scott would have done a good job of steering clear of heavily populated areas.

Yes, the pilots considered flying over the Pacific ...

No. Was said in gest! That was never a serious alternative suggested. It was a remark only - cannot be used to say anything about the fp they took.

Have you seen a 302 which explains why they took V23? Or any 302 that mentions going out over the Pacific ?

That's correct, I misspoke slightly. What I had meant to say is that a *hypothetical* western flight path would make more sense hugging the coast and making a sharp turn to the east. Sorry for any confusion.

Actually, a flight path along the coast wouldn't make much sense.  As I posted earlier, Cooper directed the flight crew to fly at 10,000 feet which also happens to be the MOCA for V-23 from Seattle to well into California.  Staying at 10,000 feet on V-23 also ensures that VORTAC navigation reception and VHF radio communications with Air Traffic Control can be maintained.

However, at 10,000 feet direct communications cannot always be maintain with the ARINC system.  And the FBI notes that some ARINC communications were relayed by other airliners flying at higher altitudes.

Do you know what the population and size of the Portland/Vancouver area was in 1971, just 49 years ago?
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5711 on: September 17, 2020, 12:53:20 PM »
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there is actual physical evidence--skirt, placard, money--that are very problematic for the FBI Flight Path.
This evidence seems to support the FBI flight path, not dispute it. The skirt (although never confirmed to be from Cooper's plane, but I'll humor you) was within the official 8 mile width for the Victor airway path of the FBI. The placard was also found within this 8 mile width. The Tina Bar money find could be explained by the current of the Columbia from where the jetliner crossed the river. So, I reject the premise that the physical evidence is "problematic" for the FBI flight path.

Also, while human error and expert fallibility are possible, you are asking us to believe that at the height of the Cold War, the military and other government agencies LOST TRACK of a large plane. Not just anywhere but an area of the country with high value military and industrial targets along our most northwestern coastline. These targets include (but are not limited to)the nuclear facility at Hanford,  Seattle-area Boeing plants, the Puget Sound Navy Yard, Fort Lewis, and McChord and Fairchild Air Force Bases. This air defense area was on high alert for Soviet bombers constantly in 1971. The idea that all of these eyes and ears, while on full alert, somehow got the location of a hijacked airliner wrong borders on the preposterous.

In summary, the physical evidence you cited isn't problematic for the FBI Flight path (on the contrary), and the idea that not just one or two people erred, but the entire military-industrial complex failed at a simple task at which it prepared for constantly seems highly improbable.

For the record, I'm happy to hear any respectful, reasoned, logical arguments to counter what I've stated.
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5712 on: September 17, 2020, 01:54:22 PM »
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there is actual physical evidence--skirt, placard, money--that are very problematic for the FBI Flight Path.
This evidence seems to support the FBI flight path, not dispute it. The skirt (although never confirmed to be from Cooper's plane, but I'll humor you) was within the official 8 mile width for the Victor airway path of the FBI. The placard was also found within this 8 mile width. The Tina Bar money find could be explained by the current of the Columbia from where the jetliner crossed the river. So, I reject the premise that the physical evidence is "problematic" for the FBI flight path.

Also, while human error and expert fallibility are possible, you are asking us to believe that at the height of the Cold War, the military and other government agencies LOST TRACK of a large plane. Not just anywhere but an area of the country with high value military and industrial targets along our most northwestern coastline. These targets include (but are not limited to)the nuclear facility at Hanford,  Seattle-area Boeing plants, the Puget Sound Navy Yard, Fort Lewis, and McChord and Fairchild Air Force Bases. This air defense area was on high alert for Soviet bombers constantly in 1971. The idea that all of these eyes and ears, while on full alert, somehow got the location of a hijacked airliner wrong borders on the preposterous.

In summary, the physical evidence you cited isn't problematic for the FBI Flight path (on the contrary), and the idea that not just one or two people erred, but the entire military-industrial complex failed at a simple task at which it prepared for constantly seems highly improbable.

For the record, I'm happy to hear any respectful, reasoned, logical arguments to counter what I've stated.

I think you're getting Victor 23 confused with the FBI Flight Path. No one is debating whether the jet flew down V23. What we're debating is where the items were found in relation to the FBI Flight Path--that is problematic.

Also, I'm not saying that they lost 305. I'm saying when they cobbled together the radar data--which is not the same thing as tracking a target in real time--the target data they used was from their own jets, not 305.

Moreover, I recently watched an interesting documentary about September 11th. In part it discussed the military and its tracking enemy aircraft and threats. It said that they were hampered by the fact that their abilities were targeted offshore--not domestically--because the general rule is that threats would approach the US from offshore. Obviously the September 11th jets were an exception that that general rule. In short, I do not know exactly how effective SAGE was in 1971 for tracking flights domestically and plotting a precise flight path days later.

Finally, to suggest that the "entire military-industrial complex" had to fail is incorrect. In truth it takes only one guy--the guy who collected the radar data and plotted the path two days later.
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5713 on: September 17, 2020, 01:59:50 PM »
Of course there is the famous map with the flight path roughly plotted in pencil. What's the history of this map? I assumed that it was from the FBI. Do we know who was responsible for plotting it out?

Also, that map seems to be segmented into locations plotted every minute. How would someone do that a day or two after the fact? The note "1st plot" written at the top would seem to indicate some other information gathered from radar.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5714 on: September 17, 2020, 02:02:08 PM »
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there is actual physical evidence--skirt, placard, money--that are very problematic for the FBI Flight Path.
This evidence seems to support the FBI flight path, not dispute it. The skirt (although never confirmed to be from Cooper's plane, but I'll humor you) was within the official 8 mile width for the Victor airway path of the FBI. The placard was also found within this 8 mile width. The Tina Bar money find could be explained by the current of the Columbia from where the jetliner crossed the river. So, I reject the premise that the physical evidence is "problematic" for the FBI flight path.

Also, while human error and expert fallibility are possible, you are asking us to believe that at the height of the Cold War, the military and other government agencies LOST TRACK of a large plane. Not just anywhere but an area of the country with high value military and industrial targets along our most northwestern coastline. These targets include (but are not limited to)the nuclear facility at Hanford,  Seattle-area Boeing plants, the Puget Sound Navy Yard, Fort Lewis, and McChord and Fairchild Air Force Bases. This air defense area was on high alert for Soviet bombers constantly in 1971. The idea that all of these eyes and ears, while on full alert, somehow got the location of a hijacked airliner wrong borders on the preposterous.

In summary, the physical evidence you cited isn't problematic for the FBI Flight path (on the contrary), and the idea that not just one or two people erred, but the entire military-industrial complex failed at a simple task at which it prepared for constantly seems highly improbable.

For the record, I'm happy to hear any respectful, reasoned, logical arguments to counter what I've stated.

Chaucer & Georger,

The countered, respectful, reasoned, and logical argument to Chaucer's statement is that the placard was found upwind of the FBI flight path.  Chaucer and Georger, do you understand what that means?

There are other problems with the so-called FBI flight path.  For starters, where did this flight path come from?  As I remember it, the FBI posted the flight path on DropZone in an effort to determine if anyone knew the answer to that question.