Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
5 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
3 (6.7%)
35% Cooper lived.
1 (2.2%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
9 (20%)
100 Cooper lived
17 (37.8%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 429041 times)

Offline Chaucer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 96
  • Thanked: 17 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5640 on: July 29, 2020, 02:01:48 PM »
Sorry if this has been clarified previously, but was the Cooper sketch an actual “sketch” or was it created using “Ident-I-Kit” which was commonly used by law enforcement at the time. Ident-I-Kit basically worked like a Mr. Potato Head where witnesses chose from a set of eye brows, a set of chins, a set of mouths, etc. rather than describe the subject to an artist in real time.
 

Offline haggarknew

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Thanked: 22 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5641 on: August 01, 2020, 04:12:17 PM »
It was some kind of kit wasn't it? Good question.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3747
  • Thanked: 246 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5642 on: August 01, 2020, 06:03:08 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Sorry if this has been clarified previously, but was the Cooper sketch an actual “sketch” or was it created using “Ident-I-Kit” which was commonly used by law enforcement at the time. Ident-I-Kit basically worked like a Mr. Potato Head where witnesses chose from a set of eye brows, a set of chins, a set of mouths, etc. rather than describe the subject to an artist in real time.

Nat has a better grasp of this issue, but my understanding is that the process used both approaches. It varied over time. Identi-kits became more prevalent as time went on due to distances between witnesses. But it was never an "either-or" situation.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 06:03:43 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 96
  • Thanked: 17 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5643 on: August 02, 2020, 03:41:01 PM »
I’ve done quite a bit of research on the Zodiac killer case. (No, I don’t think the DBC and Zodiac were the same guy).

The famous sketches of the Zodiac were done via Ident-I-Kit in 1969. This has led some to question the accuracy. I wonder if the same issue is present in the DBC sketch.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3747
  • Thanked: 246 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5644 on: August 02, 2020, 07:11:29 PM »
A good analysis of this issue has been presented by Nat Loufoque here, many months ago. I've taken most of it, plus his private contributions to me, and have incorporated it all into my chapter on the sketches. I posted it at the Mountain News-WA. I invite you to check it out.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
 
The following users thanked this post: Chaucer

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 854
  • Thanked: 99 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5645 on: August 03, 2020, 08:15:32 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
A good analysis of this issue has been presented by Nat Loufoque here, many months ago. I've taken most of it, plus his private contributions to me, and have incorporated it all into my chapter on the sketches. I posted it at the Mountain News-WA. I invite you to check it out.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The DailyMail.com in London also has an article up now about today's Kaye paper.
 

Offline Lynn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
  • Thanked: 58 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5646 on: August 29, 2020, 03:35:19 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
More on the Sketches

Here's a preliminary view of my chapter on the sketches, incorporating all the information from above, coupled with pix. At the MN:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've always found the Joshua Ryal sketch interesting, because he's an absolute Everyman. A face that just blends. But I tend to go with B just because it's less dependent on Flo. I still think it's interesting the eyes got added in when other witnesses were added and didn't come from Flo, who is the perfect example of emotion colouring memory.

Lynn, when will your next book be out?  Be sure to announce it here.
Thank you for your interest, Robert, as well as your input while I was researching it! Several forum members and/or their work are cited in the acknowledgments. Couldn't have done it without people in the know - and sharing the same fascination - willing to provide insight. Much appreciated.

Actually, I'll be re-announcing the first book here soon, fingers crossed; the publisher re-branded to expand their genre lines but all their books were briefly unavailable and all the old reviews and everything got lost in the Amazon shuffle. But I'm happy to have had some time to clean it up; the original had a few errors I'd missed over multiple revisions, mostly typos or minor details about the protagonists' lives, but they bugged me. And I still intend sending copies to people who have requested them and/or given me copies of their own work.

I have all the research for the second book done. I just need to get it written, I'm hoping by the end of this year. It's not a Cooper story, but another time-travel story with a historical cold case, the William Desmond Taylor murder in 1922, as big as the OJ case at the time. It does parallel the Cooper case for the sheer amount of false info that became gospel, missing evidence, conflicting witnesses, and too many viable suspects to narrow it down to less than four majors and an unlimited number of minors.

I hope you and your nears and dears are keeping safe and well. We do live in such odd times. I'm expecting Godzilla any day now. ;)
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2196
  • Thanked: 300 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5647 on: August 29, 2020, 03:52:15 PM »
The hijacking was a transaction. People who initiate transactions usually state the basics right at the beginning.

Flo reached in her purse for a pen and notepad to write down Cooper's conditions .  He said: “No funny stuff or I’ll do the job.” “After this we’ll take a little trip.” Schaffner got permission from the hijacker to take the notes to the pilot. Thus Cooper stated literally what he planned to do right at the beginning. A trip to Mexico announced later was not his plan, but a diversion intended to divert people's outlook.

Cooper was keeping track of time, literally, and he had some means to do that. Either he had a watch or he was relying on others who had watches. While in the holding pattern over Seattle the hijacker noted: "It is 5:15 and we are still waiting. I wanted everything by 5:00 o’clock!". “After this we’ll take a little trip.” or  After this we’ll take a short trip.

Cooper was timing everything in real time. And he intended to jump back near Portland, where everything started. He knew how long it took to fly from Seattle to Portland, just like he knew where Tacoma was from the air. Welcome to the real DB Cooper and who and what he was . . . he's probably a 1st or 2nd generation English speaker with family roots in the Midwest, perhaps the Chicago area, perhaps with family in Florida and Cuba?  . . .  his mention of 'not going to Havana' shows he was knew the Geo-politics going on in America at the time, from TV and newspapers. 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2020, 04:24:42 PM by georger »
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 854
  • Thanked: 99 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5648 on: August 29, 2020, 04:28:09 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The hijacking was a transaction. People who initiate transactions usually state the basics right at the beginning.

Flo reached in her purse for a pen and notepad to write down Cooper's conditions .  He said: “No funny stuff or I’ll do the job.” “After this we’ll take a little trip.” Schaffner got permission from the hijacker to take the notes to the pilot. Thus Cooper stated literally what he planned to do right at the beginning. A trip to Mexico announced later was not his plan, but a diversion intended to divert people's outlook.

Cooper was keeping track of time, literally, and he had some means to do that. Either he had a watch or he was relying on others who had watches. While in the holding pattern over Seattle the hijacker noted: "It is 5:15 and we are still waiting. I wanted everything by 5:00 o’clock!". “After this we’ll take a little trip.” or  After this we’ll take a short trip.

Cooper was timing everything in real time. And he intended to jump back near Portland, where everything started. He knew how long it took to fly from Seattle to Portland, just like he knew where Tacoma was from the air. Welcome to the real DB Cooper and who and what he was . . . he's probably a 1st or 2nd generation English speaker with family roots in the Midwest, perhaps the Chicago area, perhaps with family in Florida and Cuba?  . . .  his mention of 'not going to Havana' shows he was knew the Geo-politics going on in America at the time, from TV and newspapers.

Just exactly what is your source for Cooper noting that it was 5:15 PM?  As well as the other claims you make above?
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2196
  • Thanked: 300 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5649 on: August 29, 2020, 11:26:30 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The hijacking was a transaction. People who initiate transactions usually state the basics right at the beginning.

Flo reached in her purse for a pen and notepad to write down Cooper's conditions .  He said: “No funny stuff or I’ll do the job.” “After this we’ll take a little trip.” Schaffner got permission from the hijacker to take the notes to the pilot. Thus Cooper stated literally what he planned to do right at the beginning. A trip to Mexico announced later was a diversion intended to divert people's attention.

Cooper was keeping track of time, literally, and he had some means to do that. Either he had a watch or he was relying on others who had watches. While in the holding pattern over Seattle the hijacker noted: "It is 5:15 and we are still waiting. I wanted everything by 5:00 o’clock!". “After this we’ll take a little trip.” or  After this we’ll take a short trip.

Cooper was timing everything in real time. And he intended to jump back near Portland, where everything started. He knew how long it took to fly from Seattle to Portland, just like he knew where Tacoma was from the air. Welcome to the real DB Cooper and who and what he was . . . he's probably a 1st or 2nd generation English speaker with family roots in the Midwest, perhaps the Chicago area, perhaps with family in Florida and Cuba?  . . .  his mention of 'not going to Havana' shows he was knew the Geo-politics going on in America at the time, from TV and newspapers.

Just exactly what is your source for Cooper noting that it was 5:15 PM?  As well as the other claims you make above?

Actual Testimony for a change - Obviously!  Sorry you've been asleep basking in your arrogant superiority!  :offtopicman:
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 12:22:17 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 854
  • Thanked: 99 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5650 on: August 30, 2020, 12:24:19 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The hijacking was a transaction. People who initiate transactions usually state the basics right at the beginning.

Flo reached in her purse for a pen and notepad to write down Cooper's conditions .  He said: “No funny stuff or I’ll do the job.” “After this we’ll take a little trip.” Schaffner got permission from the hijacker to take the notes to the pilot. Thus Cooper stated literally what he planned to do right at the beginning. A trip to Mexico announced later was a diversion intended to divert people's attention.

Cooper was keeping track of time, literally, and he had some means to do that. Either he had a watch or he was relying on others who had watches. While in the holding pattern over Seattle the hijacker noted: "It is 5:15 and we are still waiting. I wanted everything by 5:00 o’clock!". “After this we’ll take a little trip.” or  After this we’ll take a short trip.

Cooper was timing everything in real time. And he intended to jump back near Portland, where everything started. He knew how long it took to fly from Seattle to Portland, just like he knew where Tacoma was from the air. Welcome to the real DB Cooper and who and what he was . . . he's probably a 1st or 2nd generation English speaker with family roots in the Midwest, perhaps the Chicago area, perhaps with family in Florida and Cuba?  . . .  his mention of 'not going to Havana' shows he was knew the Geo-politics going on in America at the time, from TV and newspapers.

Just exactly what is your source for Cooper noting that it was 5:15 PM?  As well as the other claims you make above?

Actual Testimony for a change - Obviously!  Sorry you've been asleep. :offtopicman:

You need to wake up.  Just exactly where is the documentation for the claims you make above.  It is sure not in any of the 302s or other paperwork that has been released?

It appears to be just more of your own fabrications and speculations.
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2196
  • Thanked: 300 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5651 on: August 30, 2020, 01:16:30 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The hijacking was a transaction. People who initiate transactions usually state the basics right at the beginning.

Flo reached in her purse for a pen and notepad to write down Cooper's conditions .  He said: “No funny stuff or I’ll do the job.” “After this we’ll take a little trip.” Schaffner got permission from the hijacker to take the notes to the pilot. Thus Cooper stated literally what he planned to do right at the beginning. A trip to Mexico announced later was a diversion intended to divert people's attention.

Cooper was keeping track of time, literally, and he had some means to do that. Either he had a watch or he was relying on others who had watches. While in the holding pattern over Seattle the hijacker noted: "It is 5:15 and we are still waiting. I wanted everything by 5:00 o’clock!". “After this we’ll take a little trip.” or  After this we’ll take a short trip.

Cooper was timing everything in real time. And he intended to jump back near Portland, where everything started. He knew how long it took to fly from Seattle to Portland, just like he knew where Tacoma was from the air. Welcome to the real DB Cooper and who and what he was . . . he's probably a 1st or 2nd generation English speaker with family roots in the Midwest, perhaps the Chicago area, perhaps with family in Florida and Cuba?  . . .  his mention of 'not going to Havana' shows he was knew the Geo-politics going on in America at the time, from TV and newspapers.

Just exactly what is your source for Cooper noting that it was 5:15 PM?  As well as the other claims you make above?

Actual Testimony for a change - Obviously!  Sorry you've been asleep. :offtopicman:

You need to wake up.  Just exactly where is the documentation for the claims you make above.  It is sure not in any of the 302s or other paperwork that has been released?

It appears to be just more of your own fabrications and speculations.

Its not my fault you are illiterate! Its not the first time and certainly not the last. Babysit yourself for a change.   
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 01:29:44 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 854
  • Thanked: 99 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5652 on: August 30, 2020, 02:52:44 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The hijacking was a transaction. People who initiate transactions usually state the basics right at the beginning.

Flo reached in her purse for a pen and notepad to write down Cooper's conditions .  He said: “No funny stuff or I’ll do the job.” “After this we’ll take a little trip.” Schaffner got permission from the hijacker to take the notes to the pilot. Thus Cooper stated literally what he planned to do right at the beginning. A trip to Mexico announced later was a diversion intended to divert people's attention.

Cooper was keeping track of time, literally, and he had some means to do that. Either he had a watch or he was relying on others who had watches. While in the holding pattern over Seattle the hijacker noted: "It is 5:15 and we are still waiting. I wanted everything by 5:00 o’clock!". “After this we’ll take a little trip.” or  After this we’ll take a short trip.

Cooper was timing everything in real time. And he intended to jump back near Portland, where everything started. He knew how long it took to fly from Seattle to Portland, just like he knew where Tacoma was from the air. Welcome to the real DB Cooper and who and what he was . . . he's probably a 1st or 2nd generation English speaker with family roots in the Midwest, perhaps the Chicago area, perhaps with family in Florida and Cuba?  . . .  his mention of 'not going to Havana' shows he was knew the Geo-politics going on in America at the time, from TV and newspapers.

Just exactly what is your source for Cooper noting that it was 5:15 PM?  As well as the other claims you make above?

Actual Testimony for a change - Obviously!  Sorry you've been asleep. :offtopicman:

You need to wake up.  Just exactly where is the documentation for the claims you make above.  It is sure not in any of the 302s or other paperwork that has been released?

It appears to be just more of your own fabrications and speculations.

Its not my fault you are illiterate! Its not the first time and certainly not the last. Babysit yourself for a change.   

It is your fault that you insist on posting dis-information on the Cooper hijacking.  You apparently don't have any interest in sticking to facts.  So exactly what are you doing here?
 
The following users thanked this post: georger

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2196
  • Thanked: 300 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5653 on: August 31, 2020, 04:24:47 AM »
Reposted -

The hijacking was a transaction. People who initiate transactions often state their terms at the beginning.

Flo reached in her purse for a pen and notepad to write down Cooper's conditions .  He said: “No funny stuff or I’ll do the job. After this we’ll take a little trip. Schaffner got permission from the hijacker to take the notes to the pilot.”

Thus Cooper stated literally what he planned to do right at the start. A trip to Mexico announced later was but a diversion intended to divert people's attention. The crew was so focused on themselves and the diversion they didn’t recognize what was happening until it was over, and even then they had to discuss it further between themselves, according to Anderson, before notifying anyone! Rataczak broke the stalemate and notified the company. A typical dysfunctional bureaucratic response at a critical time when accuracy mattered.     

Cooper was also keeping track of time. Either he had a watch or he was relying on others who had watches, like Tina Mucklow. While in the holding pattern over Seattle the hijacker noted: "It is 5:15 and we are still waiting. I wanted everything by 5:00 o’clock!".

Cooper was timing everything in real time. It appears he intended to jump near Portland, where everything started. Cooper was precise in stating what he intended to do in his opening statements with Flo and Tina.

*sources: all quotes are from FBI 302s and FBI Crew Interviews.       
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 04:31:45 AM by georger »
 
The following users thanked this post: haggarknew

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 854
  • Thanked: 99 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5654 on: August 31, 2020, 01:43:00 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Reposted -

The hijacking was a transaction. People who initiate transactions often state their terms at the beginning.

Flo reached in her purse for a pen and notepad to write down Cooper's conditions .  He said: “No funny stuff or I’ll do the job. After this we’ll take a little trip. Schaffner got permission from the hijacker to take the notes to the pilot.”

Thus Cooper stated literally what he planned to do right at the start. A trip to Mexico announced later was but a diversion intended to divert people's attention. The crew was so focused on themselves and the diversion they didn’t recognize what was happening until it was over, and even then they had to discuss it further between themselves, according to Anderson, before notifying anyone! Rataczak broke the stalemate and notified the company. A typical dysfunctional bureaucratic response at a critical time when accuracy mattered.     

Cooper was also keeping track of time. Either he had a watch or he was relying on others who had watches, like Tina Mucklow. While in the holding pattern over Seattle the hijacker noted: "It is 5:15 and we are still waiting. I wanted everything by 5:00 o’clock!".

Cooper was timing everything in real time. It appears he intended to jump near Portland, where everything started. Cooper was precise in stating what he intended to do in his opening statements with Flo and Tina.

*sources: all quotes are from FBI 302s and FBI Crew Interviews.     

Again, you claim that Cooper made a statement about 5:15 PM.  Exactly where is your source for that statement?  There is no such statement in the transcripts or the 302s.