Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
5 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
3 (6.7%)
35% Cooper lived.
1 (2.2%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
9 (20%)
100 Cooper lived
17 (37.8%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 432664 times)

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5160 on: November 29, 2019, 06:15:39 PM »
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Question for anyone, whether you live in the area or not.  A plane takes off from Portland, flies north to SEATAC (which is south of Seattle), what major cities would you see if you looked down after you left Portland, flew for 30 minutes, but before you landed at SEATAC?  Cleveland, New York, Dallas??

And another one.  If you know you are flying from Portland to SEATAC, what military bases would be on that route?  Fort Bragg, Fort Benning, Andrews Air Force Base??

When you answer these questions, how can you possibly think that Cooper was intimate with the area? He could have been, but he also could have just looked at a map.  As Nicky said in an earlier post, I think: He was trying to act like he knew more than everyone else.  Larry Carr even called him a "know it all"

Knowing the area, being Canadian, etc. are all parts of the story that have made it into people's minds.  What if none of this is accurate?

Cooper not only correctly named a place from the air, and gave its relative position, he gave the correct driving time from one place to another. Thats more than guessing.   

What's the BIG DEAL with this?   

Georger the big deal is that it was not a big deal to name Tacoma from the air. There was nothing else it could be.  We know on the return trip that there were very few landmarks that he could have seen right?  So wouldn't that be the same for the trip up?  Tacoma was an industrial city with a population of over 150,000.  He would have known he was over a city versus being over say Ariel.  Why were cities blacked out during World War II?

The point is that the did not have to know the area.  What else could he have seen when looking out the window?  This is part of the narrative that has just become accepted, just like him dying in the jump.  What else could he have possibly seen out the window?
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5161 on: November 29, 2019, 06:19:27 PM »
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Question for anyone, whether you live in the area or not.  A plane takes off from Portland, flies north to SEATAC (which is south of Seattle), what major cities would you see if you looked down after you left Portland, flew for 30 minutes, but before you landed at SEATAC?  Cleveland, New York, Dallas??

And another one.  If you know you are flying from Portland to SEATAC, what military bases would be on that route?  Fort Bragg, Fort Benning, Andrews Air Force Base??

When you answer these questions, how can you possibly think that Cooper was intimate with the area? He could have been, but he also could have just looked at a map.  As Nicky said in an earlier post, I think: He was trying to act like he knew more than everyone else.  Larry Carr even called him a "know it all"

Knowing the area, being Canadian, etc. are all parts of the story that have made it into people's minds.  What if none of this is accurate?

Cooper not only correctly named a place from the air, and gave its relative position, he gave the correct driving time from one place to another. Thats more than guessing.   

What's the BIG DEAL with this?   

Georger the big deal is that it was not a big deal to name Tacoma from the air. There was nothing else it could be.  We know on the return trip that there were very few landmarks that he could have seen right?  So wouldn't that be the same for the trip up?  Tacoma was an industrial city with a population of over 150,000.  He would have known he was over a city versus being over say Ariel.  Why were cities blacked out during World War II?

The point is that the did not have to know the area.  What else could he have seen when looking out the window?  This is part of the narrative that has just become accepted, just like him dying in the jump.  What else could he have possibly seen out the window?

To what end? Why should we abandon the accepted narrative in the absence of contraindications?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5162 on: November 29, 2019, 06:44:50 PM »
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Question for anyone, whether you live in the area or not.  A plane takes off from Portland, flies north to SEATAC (which is south of Seattle), what major cities would you see if you looked down after you left Portland, flew for 30 minutes, but before you landed at SEATAC?  Cleveland, New York, Dallas??

And another one.  If you know you are flying from Portland to SEATAC, what military bases would be on that route?  Fort Bragg, Fort Benning, Andrews Air Force Base??

When you answer these questions, how can you possibly think that Cooper was intimate with the area? He could have been, but he also could have just looked at a map.  As Nicky said in an earlier post, I think: He was trying to act like he knew more than everyone else.  Larry Carr even called him a "know it all"

Knowing the area, being Canadian, etc. are all parts of the story that have made it into people's minds.  What if none of this is accurate?

Cooper not only correctly named a place from the air, and gave its relative position, he gave the correct driving time from one place to another. Thats more than guessing.   

What's the BIG DEAL with this?   

Georger the big deal is that it was not a big deal to name Tacoma from the air. There was nothing else it could be.  We know on the return trip that there were very few landmarks that he could have seen right?  So wouldn't that be the same for the trip up?  Tacoma was an industrial city with a population of over 150,000.  He would have known he was over a city versus being over say Ariel.  Why were cities blacked out during World War II?

The point is that the did not have to know the area.  What else could he have seen when looking out the window?  This is part of the narrative that has just become accepted, just like him dying in the jump.  What else could he have possibly seen out the window?

To what end? Why should we abandon the accepted narrative in the absence of contraindications?

In life I often find myself asking:

1) Why am I being told this?

2) What is this person trying to convince me of?

3) To what end?

DB Cooper was exceptionally deceptive. The ploy about flying to Mexico, requesting two sets of parachutes, a bomb within an attache' case.

What else is part of the DBC deception narrative? Familiarity with Seattle region? Familiarity with Boeing 727? Appearance? Smoker? Grudge?, etc.

It all needs to be considered thoughtfully.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5163 on: November 29, 2019, 07:17:10 PM »
Being open-minded doesn't change the fact he knew the travel time between McChord and SeaTac, could identify Tacoma from the air, got on the plane in Portland and said he didn't have a grudge against your airlines...
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5164 on: November 29, 2019, 10:35:46 PM »
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In life I often find myself asking:

1) Why am I being told this?

2) What is this person trying to convince me of?

3) To what end?

DB Cooper was exceptionally deceptive. The ploy about flying to Mexico, requesting two sets of parachutes, a bomb within an attache' case.

What else is part of the DBC deception narrative? Familiarity with Seattle region? Familiarity with Boeing 727? Appearance? Smoker? Grudge?, etc.

It all needs to be considered thoughtfully.



Indeed
« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 10:36:40 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5165 on: November 29, 2019, 11:43:58 PM »
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Question for anyone, whether you live in the area or not.  A plane takes off from Portland, flies north to SEATAC (which is south of Seattle), what major cities would you see if you looked down after you left Portland, flew for 30 minutes, but before you landed at SEATAC?  Cleveland, New York, Dallas??

And another one.  If you know you are flying from Portland to SEATAC, what military bases would be on that route?  Fort Bragg, Fort Benning, Andrews Air Force Base??

When you answer these questions, how can you possibly think that Cooper was intimate with the area? He could have been, but he also could have just looked at a map.  As Nicky said in an earlier post, I think: He was trying to act like he knew more than everyone else.  Larry Carr even called him a "know it all"

Knowing the area, being Canadian, etc. are all parts of the story that have made it into people's minds.  What if none of this is accurate?

Cooper not only correctly named a place from the air, and gave its relative position, he gave the correct driving time from one place to another. Thats more than guessing.   

What's the BIG DEAL with this?   

Georger the big deal is that it was not a big deal to name Tacoma from the air. There was nothing else it could be.  We know on the return trip that there were very few landmarks that he could have seen right?  So wouldn't that be the same for the trip up?  Tacoma was an industrial city with a population of over 150,000.  He would have known he was over a city versus being over say Ariel.  Why were cities blacked out during World War II?

The point is that the did not have to know the area.  What else could he have seen when looking out the window?  This is part of the narrative that has just become accepted, just like him dying in the jump.  What else could he have possibly seen out the window?

You're right. What other evidence is No big deal. 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 12:05:50 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5166 on: November 29, 2019, 11:46:09 PM »
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Being open-minded doesn't change the fact he knew the travel time between McChord and SeaTac, could identify Tacoma from the air, got on the plane in Portland and said he didn't have a grudge against your airlines...

. . . and its no big deal. I will now contemplate my naval while contemplating my naval carefully. It might be Tacoma!  :rofl:

I think the point being conveyed is: be very careful where you set your self. There might be water moccasins under your ass that only look like a solid piece of wood?   
« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 11:50:11 PM by georger »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5167 on: November 30, 2019, 08:02:34 AM »
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Being open-minded doesn't change the fact he knew the travel time between McChord and SeaTac, could identify Tacoma from the air, got on the plane in Portland and said he didn't have a grudge against your airlines...

I have no idea what Georger was talking about in his post about his navel. 

Martin: Did DB Cooper correctly identify the time from McChord Air Force Base to SEATAC? He said 20 minutes.  Has anyone done the drive from the airfield there, out the gate, and to Seattle Airport?  Is it 20 minutes or is it 25 or 30?  30 minutes would mean he was off by 50%.

How much of the DB Cooper narrative has the public just accepted because that's what they heard?  Heck, DB Cooper was really Dan Cooper.  Walter Cronkite called him DA Cooper.  There are parts of this case that don't need public contraindications to be questioned.  I question the veracity of the claim that he was from the area simply due to the Tacoma and McChord comments.  However, I do believe he was familiar with the area. 

EU made me think of something, that him being a know it all could have been to throw people off.  So he could have been a know it all and trying to throw people off.  I do think the "grudge against your airlines" plural seemed a little odd, like he was purposely saying he didn't have a grudge against the airlines.  The smoking, the drinking could all have been to throw people off.  Being a gentleman and knowing the harness are two parts though that I think would be difficult to fake.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5168 on: November 30, 2019, 09:05:35 AM »
Check the FBI Files.

I think we're conflating facts with the interpretation of those facts. What's the drive time between Buckley AFB and Stapleton International and what does it say about me that I know?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5169 on: November 30, 2019, 02:33:18 PM »
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Being open-minded doesn't change the fact he knew the travel time between McChord and SeaTac, could identify Tacoma from the air, got on the plane in Portland and said he didn't have a grudge against your airlines...

I have no idea what Georger was talking about in his post about his navel. 

Martin: Did DB Cooper correctly identify the time from McChord Air Force Base to SEATAC? He said 20 minutes.  Has anyone done the drive from the airfield there, out the gate, and to Seattle Airport?  Is it 20 minutes or is it 25 or 30?  30 minutes would mean he was off by 50%.

How much of the DB Cooper narrative has the public just accepted because that's what they heard?  Heck, DB Cooper was really Dan Cooper.  Walter Cronkite called him DA Cooper.  There are parts of this case that don't need public contraindications to be questioned.  I question the veracity of the claim that he was from the area simply due to the Tacoma and McChord comments.  However, I do believe he was familiar with the area. 

EU made me think of something, that him being a know it all could have been to throw people off.  So he could have been a know it all and trying to throw people off.  I do think the "grudge against your airlines" plural seemed a little odd, like he was purposely saying he didn't have a grudge against the airlines.  The smoking, the drinking could all have been to throw people off.  Being a gentleman and knowing the harness are two parts though that I think would be difficult to fake.

Bull . . . this is pure Gobblewobble. Damned near psychotic.

The whole hijacking could have been done on a stage in Hollywood! Maybe it never happened at all ?

SOMETIMES A CIGAR IS JUST A CIGAR. (Freud)  Calm down and it will be OK in the morning . . .

 :rofl:



« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 02:34:24 PM by georger »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5170 on: December 01, 2019, 12:13:59 PM »
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Check the FBI Files.

I think we're conflating facts with the interpretation of those facts. What's the drive time between Buckley AFB and Stapleton International and what does it say about me that I know?

Agreed. 

Facts: He said it looks like Tacoma down there.  He also said McChord was 20 minutes away. 

Interpretation of those facts: He could have been from the area, he could have checked out the area, he could have looked at a map, he could have winged it, he could have talked to a friend, he could have looked at a timetable.
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5171 on: December 01, 2019, 12:27:52 PM »
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Being open-minded doesn't change the fact he knew the travel time between McChord and SeaTac, could identify Tacoma from the air, got on the plane in Portland and said he didn't have a grudge against your airlines...

I have no idea what Georger was talking about in his post about his navel. 

Martin: Did DB Cooper correctly identify the time from McChord Air Force Base to SEATAC? He said 20 minutes.  Has anyone done the drive from the airfield there, out the gate, and to Seattle Airport?  Is it 20 minutes or is it 25 or 30?  30 minutes would mean he was off by 50%.

How much of the DB Cooper narrative has the public just accepted because that's what they heard?  Heck, DB Cooper was really Dan Cooper.  Walter Cronkite called him DA Cooper.  There are parts of this case that don't need public contraindications to be questioned.  I question the veracity of the claim that he was from the area simply due to the Tacoma and McChord comments.  However, I do believe he was familiar with the area. 

EU made me think of something, that him being a know it all could have been to throw people off.  So he could have been a know it all and trying to throw people off.  I do think the "grudge against your airlines" plural seemed a little odd, like he was purposely saying he didn't have a grudge against the airlines.  The smoking, the drinking could all have been to throw people off.  Being a gentleman and knowing the harness are two parts though that I think would be difficult to fake.

Bull . . . this is pure Gobblewobble. Damned near psychotic.

The whole hijacking could have been done on a stage in Hollywood! Maybe it never happened at all ?

SOMETIMES A CIGAR IS JUST A CIGAR. (Freud)  Calm down and it will be OK in the morning . . .

 :rofl:

Called psychotic by the great Georger.  I feel honored. I'll add that one to my portfolio. 

What parts do you disagree with?  I'm mainly focused on his statements about Tacoma and McChord and how the FBI files determine he was from the area because of that (attached).  I took this snippet off Dropzone (posted by your buddy Flyjack).  For those who can't log in, the FBI file says that these four things indicate he lived in the area at some time:

1.  He knew the distance from McChord AFB to SEATAC.  20 minute drive. (False, it's more than that, even speeding with an escort.  It's close to 30 miles, and it was dark and the busiest travel day of the year).
2.  He recognized Tacoma from the air (it was the only possible city he could have seen, unless you want to make a stretch and say they flew over Olympia).
3.  He was dressed in a suit and lightweight overcoat which is commonly worn by northwest area residents (amazing detective work on that one.  I guess no one else in the USA wears those items).
4.  No accent as detected by the stews (one was from Philly, one was from Arkansas).  How does this indicate where he was from?  Just because they could not place an accent?

None of this means he was from the area or had any idea he was from the area.  I can't fathom doing this without having knowledge of the area, so I'm guessing he knew something. 

The bottom line is that the first story that got out ended up in people's minds, I don't think any of it was a cover story or for a Black Op, but regardless, people seem to believe what they hear first.  Why do people still believe that Reca or Rackstraw or McCoy are Cooper?  Why do people believe he died in the jump? Why is he called DB Cooper? Why could he not have spent the money? Why does one of the first paragraphs on Wiki say this "Available evidence and a preponderance of expert opinion suggested from the beginning that Cooper probably did not survive his high-risk jump." Propaganda works.

I'm not trying to convince the people on this board who know the case, it's the millions out there who believe what they hear or see on these TV shows.

Thanks Georger. Always a pleasure to read your posts.
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5172 on: December 01, 2019, 12:38:23 PM »
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Check the FBI Files.

I think we're conflating facts with the interpretation of those facts. What's the drive time between Buckley AFB and Stapleton International and what does it say about me that I know?

Agreed. 

Facts: He said it looks like Tacoma down there.  He also said McChord was 20 minutes away. 

Interpretation of those facts: He could have been from the area, he could have checked out the area, he could have looked at a map, he could have winged it, he could have talked to a friend, he could have looked at a timetable.

As EU has pointed out, it is unlikely that Cooper could have identified Tacoma by sight at night and in bad weather.  Cooper probably saw some lights and some dark spots (which would be water in that area) and concluded that a certain area of lights was Tacoma.

If anyone thinks Cooper could have identified Tacoma by sight under those conditions, then pay attention to the next time you fly into a large metroplex on a clear night.  It is extremely difficult to identify specific cities, other things being equal.  Any number of airliners have landed at the wrong airport under these condition when the flight crew didn't pay sufficient attention to their navigation instruments and used visual cues only.  You have to navigate all the way to the runway under those conditions. 

But his 20 minutes driving time statement almost makes it a given that he was familiar with the area at the ground level.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5173 on: December 01, 2019, 12:42:44 PM »
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Called psychotic by the great Georger.  I feel honored. I'll add that one to my portfolio. 

What parts do you disagree with?  I'm mainly focused on his statements about Tacoma and McChord and how the FBI files determine he was from the area because of that (attached).  I took this snippet off Dropzone (posted by your buddy Flyjack).  For those who can't log in, the FBI file says that these four things indicate he lived in the area at some time:

1.  He knew the distance from McChord AFB to SEATAC.  20 minute drive. (False, it's more than that, even speeding with an escort.  It's close to 30 miles, and it was dark and the busiest travel day of the year).
2.  He recognized Tacoma from the air (it was the only possible city he could have seen, unless you want to make a stretch and say they flew over Olympia).
3.  He was dressed in a suit and lightweight overcoat which is commonly worn by northwest area residents (amazing detective work on that one.  I guess no one else in the USA wears those items).
4.  No accent as detected by the stews (one was from Philly, one was from Arkansas).  How does this indicate where he was from?  Just because they could not place an accent?

None of this means he was from the area or had any idea he was from the area.  I can't fathom doing this without having knowledge of the area, so I'm guessing he knew something. 

The bottom line is that the first story that got out ended up in people's minds, I don't think any of it was a cover story or for a Black Op, but regardless, people seem to believe what they hear first.  Why do people still believe that Reca or Rackstraw or McCoy are Cooper?  Why do people believe he died in the jump? Why is he called DB Cooper? Why could he not have spent the money? Why does one of the first paragraphs on Wiki say this "Available evidence and a preponderance of expert opinion suggested from the beginning that Cooper probably did not survive his high-risk jump." Propaganda works.

I'm not trying to convince the people on this board who know the case, it's the millions out there who believe what they hear or see on these TV shows.

Thanks Georger. Always a pleasure to read your posts.

FCASTLE866 is correct. A lot of assumptions have been made that may well be flawed.

Indeed, McChord to SeaTac nowadays can take an hour to travel. It is a 34 mile drive. With no traffic and speeding you're at at least 30 minutes travel time.

Personally, I think Cooper made the remarks he made to drop a hint that he was not to be fooled with and that his plan was thorough. In other words, he was not to be taken lightly. I think he was almost certainly familiar with the Puget Sound region, however, that he probably no longer lived in the area.

All of that said, intellectual honesty dictates that I acknowledge that my assumptions may be wrong: That Cooper may have outsmarted me in this regard.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5174 on: December 01, 2019, 12:51:42 PM »
Is it dark between 3 and 4 pm? That's when they decended to the minimum holding pattern of 6,000