Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1389942 times)

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4665 on: February 14, 2019, 12:01:39 PM »
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the start of the video is almost the start of the dig. it's not going to automatically go to 3 feet. you are basing this on a video showing "in progress" work. things will change during that period. one would be depth. kind of like saying 6 hours before a hurricane and only 4 foot waves coming in....even in the video towards the very end with the reporter in the hole showing where the ground begins showing dirt above from the dig. the stake is a foot off the bottom.

A couple of points.

1) The only additional pieces found were on the first day of digging (when Schroeder was interviewed).

2) We have footage and pictures after the digging ended which shows Palmer's trench being dug near the money find spot. Richard Fazio is actually operating the backhoe.

Unless actual notes are found it's hard to believe anything. the Fazio's claimed they only pushed the sand 50 yards north and south.

However, we have high altitude pictures (perhaps satellite images) of Tena Bar which clearly shows the dredge spoils. Tom Kaye concurs on this point too.
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4666 on: February 14, 2019, 03:14:56 PM »
Attached is a crop from a larger FBI photo in the FBI archive taken during the excavation at Tina Bar. You can clearly see the layers  (strata) in Palmer's trench. This 'is' the trench dug at the Ingram find location. In the uncropped photo Palmer is standing immediately to the left of this crop leaning on a shovel waiting for the photographer to finish taking photos.

Clearly shown are the sand and socalled sand-clay layers found. Visible is the upper active layer and just below it the thicker "cross bedded" layer, and below that Palmer's socalled clay-lump layer . . . Most or all of the money fragments found came from: the cross bedded layer measuring 24 inches deep at some points along the trench. The Ingram money actually came from a combination of the upper active layer and most likely, the very top surface of the cross-bedded layer. So the Ingram money came from the most recent geological formation visible in this trench. That fact is what lead Palmer to initially say 'the money is a recent arrival'.

The cross-bedded layer is clearly separated and distinctly different from Palmer's clay-lump layer below it. The difference between the two layers is stark and easily discerned. You can almost trace the line that separates the two layers. The clay layer is a solid compact consolidated layer. The cross-bedded layer is more diffuse and has air pockets in it! All of this is clearly visible in this photo taken to document the layers Palmer was finding - that is why these photos were taken!

If you accept the Palmer strata chronology then the upper active layer is no more than a year old. The cross bedded layer a year to approx 4 years old (1974). And the sand-clay layer is the dredging spoil layer laid down in 1974 by dredging ... except of course according to many no dredging spoils were even deposited in this exact area! So there is a dispute about Palmer's clay-lump layer even being dredging spoils at all.  ;)

But, the upper active and the cross bedded layers below it are clearly visible and factual. Could the cross bedded layer be older than 1974? Yes. Tom says it is. Tom says Palmer misinterpreted the clay-sand-lump layer and it is a layer which underlies the whole beach at Tina Bar and runs down deep underneath the river channel itself!

But let's back up. Whatever the true nature of the clay-lump layer, the upper active and cross-bedded layers are real and represent a passage of time with multiple water events. Years! Money frags found came mainly from the cross-bedded layer. Those money fragments may have been supplied to the cross-bedded layer by a single primary source closeby (through multiple water and erosion events over time)  or there is some other explanation.

R99's theory is that the Ingram money and any fragments associated with it 'washed in' from some distant source on land, then washed along the length of Tina Bar and were eventually deposited where Ingram found the bundles. R99's theory would require years of 'precise' deposition from some distant source south of Tina Bar on the mainland. That is a highly improbable scenario requiring a level of precision and timing over years, not found in Nature.  R99's narrative can only work if the source of the Cooper money is directly behind the Ingram site on Fazio land, then washes down across the road to the lower elevation on the beach - a again not very likely. 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 03:31:54 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4667 on: February 14, 2019, 03:39:08 PM »
Let me post this also as a followup to the post above. 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4668 on: February 14, 2019, 03:52:54 PM »
Let me post this photo also - the larger hi-res version of this photo is glorious in its detail. This well known photo was taken in the same series as the strata photo sbove.  This is the black and white version. In this photo Palmer is pointing out the distance between the surface (upper active layer) and the clay-lump (socalled dredging layer) below.

Since everyone says no dredging spoils were even put at this location how in blazes did clay-lump dredging spoils layer even get to this area!  :nono:  Thus Tom thinks Palmer was wrong.   
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 03:57:50 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robertrand

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4669 on: February 14, 2019, 03:58:30 PM »
Last night, I was watching documentaries about the Zodiac Killer, when I stumbled onto an interesting fact about
how the FBI caught The Golden State killer. The FBI actually used a partial DNA sample and ran it against a public database shared by companies like Ancestry.com and 23andMe.com. The results found a relative that eventually led to the arrest of the killer.

This afternoon the following article popped up on my Facebook feed. Has there been any thought on using this method on the Cooper case?

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« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 04:02:32 PM by Robertrand »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4670 on: February 14, 2019, 05:22:39 PM »
It's always been my understanding the trench was not dug on the money location...

TUESDAY Feb 12th
Sifting site
Found fragments under 3 feet of sand in afternoon (Oregonian)
Picture of agents digging up sand on south end half way to beach (Oregonian Wed) Sunny at days end
   
WEDNESDAY Feb 13th
Overcast, no shadows
Backhoe in place
Trench in place
Geologist on scene
Numbered sequence of the bills in the stack still the same (Oregonian)
FBI agent Baker from Portland said bundles were randomized (Oregonian)
“Trench dug 200 ft from site to study layers” (Oregonian Richards thurs)
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4671 on: February 14, 2019, 05:45:37 PM »
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It's always been my understanding the trench was not dug on the money location...

TUESDAY Feb 12th
Sifting site
Found fragments under 3 feet of sand in afternoon (Oregonian)
Picture of agents digging up sand on south end half way to beach (Oregonian Wed) Sunny at days end
   
WEDNESDAY Feb 13th
Overcast, no shadows
Backhoe in place
Trench in place
Geologist on scene
Numbered sequence of the bills in the stack still the same (Oregonian)
FBI agent Baker from Portland said bundles were randomized (Oregonian)
“Trench dug 200 ft from site to study layers” (Oregonian Richards thurs)

Your point one above. I think that is correct! That is what Ive been told many times. That's an interesting point. Why did they do that? Nobody has explained that to date so far as I know and I have asked ... ??
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4672 on: February 14, 2019, 06:07:11 PM »
I'm guessing he already had an idea from the digging the FBI did and decided to go upstream and see what the layers looked like before the money location....see if anything was different?
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4673 on: February 14, 2019, 06:55:23 PM »
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Last night, I was watching documentaries about the Zodiac Killer, when I stumbled onto an interesting fact about
how the FBI caught The Golden State killer. The FBI actually used a partial DNA sample and ran it against a public database shared by companies like Ancestry.com and 23andMe.com. The results found a relative that eventually led to the arrest of the killer.

This afternoon the following article popped up on my Facebook feed. Has there been any thought on using this method on the Cooper case?

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Robertrand: The method to catch the Golden State Killer is useful, but they used GED MATCH, a private DNA database to catch him.  They also had a sample of the killer's DNA.  I think a sample was kept from an older case and not intentionally by law enforcement.  For the Cooper case to verify DNA through GED MATCH, they would require a relative of DB Cooper to have uploaded their DNA to GED MATCH, and for the FBI to give up what they have, which they won't do.  The only hope is that someone gets hold of the DNA profiles the FBI has, or a rouge gets it and sends it to GED MATCH.  This assumes the FBI actually has Cooper's DNA.  The good news is that even a third cousin of Cooper could upload their DNA, and that could be used to backtrack to a common relative and then with other evidence, potentially tie the suspect to the hijacking.  I believe in the Golden State Killer case they had a full DNA profile (13 genetic markers).  If the FBI actually has Cooper's DNA from his hair, the cigarette butts, or the tie, and it is not a full profile, say only 6 markers, that may not be enough to match against GED MATCH.  But, with only a few of the 13 markers in place, they could still narrow down the possibilities, but not necessarily get a conviction.  Long response, but we really would need the FBI to give up the DNA.  Wiki Leaks let out a lot of damaging info, but somehow none of those folks thought to release the DB Cooper files.
 
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Offline Robertrand

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4674 on: February 14, 2019, 07:37:02 PM »
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Last night, I was watching documentaries about the Zodiac Killer, when I stumbled onto an interesting fact about
how the FBI caught The Golden State killer. The FBI actually used a partial DNA sample and ran it against a public database shared by companies like Ancestry.com and 23andMe.com. The results found a relative that eventually led to the arrest of the killer.

This afternoon the following article popped up on my Facebook feed. Has there been any thought on using this method on the Cooper case?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Robertrand: The method to catch the Golden State Killer is useful, but they used GED MATCH, a private DNA database to catch him.  They also had a sample of the killer's DNA.  I think a sample was kept from an older case and not intentionally by law enforcement.  For the Cooper case to verify DNA through GED MATCH, they would require a relative of DB Cooper to have uploaded their DNA to GED MATCH, and for the FBI to give up what they have, which they won't do.  The only hope is that someone gets hold of the DNA profiles the FBI has, or a rouge gets it and sends it to GED MATCH.  This assumes the FBI actually has Cooper's DNA.  The good news is that even a third cousin of Cooper could upload their DNA, and that could be used to backtrack to a common relative and then with other evidence, potentially tie the suspect to the hijacking.  I believe in the Golden State Killer case they had a full DNA profile (13 genetic markers).  If the FBI actually has Cooper's DNA from his hair, the cigarette butts, or the tie, and it is not a full profile, say only 6 markers, that may not be enough to match against GED MATCH.  But, with only a few of the 13 markers in place, they could still narrow down the possibilities, but not necessarily get a conviction.  Long response, but we really would need the FBI to give up the DNA.  Wiki Leaks let out a lot of damaging info, but somehow none of those folks thought to release the DB Cooper files.

Thanks for the info. I've always wondered what happened to the limb and head hair recovered. Now is the FBI sitting on this evidence or were they disposed off like the cigarettes?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4675 on: February 14, 2019, 09:05:29 PM »
This kind of digging (hacking) is best considered to be the prevue of Snowmman.

Snow, can you find us the DNA profiles???
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4676 on: February 15, 2019, 04:36:59 AM »
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Last night, I was watching documentaries about the Zodiac Killer, when I stumbled onto an interesting fact about
how the FBI caught The Golden State killer. The FBI actually used a partial DNA sample and ran it against a public database shared by companies like Ancestry.com and 23andMe.com. The results found a relative that eventually led to the arrest of the killer.

This afternoon the following article popped up on my Facebook feed. Has there been any thought on using this method on the Cooper case?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Robertrand: The method to catch the Golden State Killer is useful, but they used GED MATCH, a private DNA database to catch him.  They also had a sample of the killer's DNA.  I think a sample was kept from an older case and not intentionally by law enforcement.  For the Cooper case to verify DNA through GED MATCH, they would require a relative of DB Cooper to have uploaded their DNA to GED MATCH, and for the FBI to give up what they have, which they won't do.  The only hope is that someone gets hold of the DNA profiles the FBI has, or a rouge gets it and sends it to GED MATCH.  This assumes the FBI actually has Cooper's DNA.  The good news is that even a third cousin of Cooper could upload their DNA, and that could be used to backtrack to a common relative and then with other evidence, potentially tie the suspect to the hijacking.  I believe in the Golden State Killer case they had a full DNA profile (13 genetic markers).  If the FBI actually has Cooper's DNA from his hair, the cigarette butts, or the tie, and it is not a full profile, say only 6 markers, that may not be enough to match against GED MATCH.  But, with only a few of the 13 markers in place, they could still narrow down the possibilities, but not necessarily get a conviction.  Long response, but we really would need the FBI to give up the DNA.  Wiki Leaks let out a lot of damaging info, but somehow none of those folks thought to release the DB Cooper files.

According to one source who posted and claims to know: 

"Partial or partials?

Multiple contributors?

Yes, yes and yes.

To answer the second question first: Yes there are multiple donors--three--on the tie.

Regarding the first question: All of the DNA related to the three donors is partial.

[Translation: All of the profiles obtained for each donor is a partial profile. ]

Finally, there was one donor who contributed saliva to the tie. It is likely that this is Cooper's DNA given it is easy to envision Cooper smoking, drinking or eating and inadvertently contributing the sample.

None of this explains what happened to the cigarette butts and shaft of hair. Or, why the FBI feels certain enough about their partial DNA profile to publicly exclude Weber and LD by virtue of that DNA while avoiding questions about Sheridan's results."

Who knows how accurate any of this is! Of course we don't know what partial means for any of these profiles? Others go on to claim multiple tests (at least 3) were required for each donor to even obtain a partial in each case! Still SA Carr maintained the profiles they have are good enough to "exclude" people. It's a mess with conflicting stories, but it never prevents Cooperfiles from writing about it ... 

There is another guy who states: "The FBI has 14 partials enough to eliminate but not include..."  ::)

So I pose a question for you: How many loci (in Codis-13) do you consider the minimum for a partial? Which loci do you consider most likely to register after 3 runs? Could we assemble our own 'partial model' as a guesstimate of what the FBI must have at minimum?   



« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 05:13:18 AM by georger »
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4677 on: February 15, 2019, 05:14:25 AM »
Perhaps Snow can unravel some of these conundrums.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4678 on: February 15, 2019, 10:09:14 AM »
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According to one source who posted and claims to know: 

"Partial or partials?

Multiple contributors?

Yes, yes and yes.

To answer the second question first: Yes there are multiple donors--three--on the tie.

Regarding the first question: All of the DNA related to the three donors is partial.

[Translation: All of the profiles obtained for each donor is a partial profile. ]

Finally, there was one donor who contributed saliva to the tie. It is likely that this is Cooper's DNA given it is easy to envision Cooper smoking, drinking or eating and inadvertently contributing the sample.

None of this explains what happened to the cigarette butts and shaft of hair. Or, why the FBI feels certain enough about their partial DNA profile to publicly exclude Weber and LD by virtue of that DNA while avoiding questions about Sheridan's results."

Who knows how accurate any of this is! Of course we don't know what partial means for any of these profiles? Others go on to claim multiple tests (at least 3) were required for each donor to even obtain a partial in each case! Still SA Carr maintained the profiles they have are good enough to "exclude" people. It's a mess with conflicting stories, but it never prevents Cooperfiles from writing about it ... 

There is another guy who states: "The FBI has 14 partials enough to eliminate but not include..."  ::)

So I pose a question for you: How many loci (in Codis-13) do you consider the minimum for a partial? Which loci do you consider most likely to register after 3 runs? Could we assemble our own 'partial model' as a guesstimate of what the FBI must have at minimum?

My understanding is that the above is correct.

It also poses an outstanding question at the end.

I asked the FBI this very question and received the "can't discuss it" response from them. I really do not understand this because they've already stated it's only partial and can exclude some suspects...why not attribute a tangible figure to these statements?

I will say this much, the DNA sample they used for LD Cooper did not come from LD, rather it came from a relative (perhaps daughter). My understanding is that the profile has to be of "reasonable" strength to make that connection. Also, apparently the profile is strong enough for the FBI to actually make the comparisons and exclude Duane and LD.

Two final questions: After taking Sheridan's DNA the FBI investigated him in Nepal and Deer Park, WA...why wouldn't they do this after receiving the DNA results? Did they do this after receiving the DNA results?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 10:10:35 AM by EU »
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Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4679 on: February 15, 2019, 12:17:39 PM »
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According to one source who posted and claims to know: 

"Partial or partials?

Multiple contributors?

Yes, yes and yes.

To answer the second question first: Yes there are multiple donors--three--on the tie.

Regarding the first question: All of the DNA related to the three donors is partial.

[Translation: All of the profiles obtained for each donor is a partial profile. ]

Finally, there was one donor who contributed saliva to the tie. It is likely that this is Cooper's DNA given it is easy to envision Cooper smoking, drinking or eating and inadvertently contributing the sample.

None of this explains what happened to the cigarette butts and shaft of hair. Or, why the FBI feels certain enough about their partial DNA profile to publicly exclude Weber and LD by virtue of that DNA while avoiding questions about Sheridan's results."

Who knows how accurate any of this is! Of course we don't know what partial means for any of these profiles? Others go on to claim multiple tests (at least 3) were required for each donor to even obtain a partial in each case! Still SA Carr maintained the profiles they have are good enough to "exclude" people. It's a mess with conflicting stories, but it never prevents Cooperfiles from writing about it ... 

There is another guy who states: "The FBI has 14 partials enough to eliminate but not include..."  ::)

So I pose a question for you: How many loci (in Codis-13) do you consider the minimum for a partial? Which loci do you consider most likely to register after 3 runs? Could we assemble our own 'partial model' as a guesstimate of what the FBI must have at minimum?

My understanding is that the above is correct.

It also poses an outstanding question at the end.

I asked the FBI this very question and received the "can't discuss it" response from them. I really do not understand this because they've already stated it's only partial and can exclude some suspects...why not attribute a tangible figure to these statements?

I will say this much, the DNA sample they used for LD Cooper did not come from LD, rather it came from a relative (perhaps daughter). My understanding is that the profile has to be of "reasonable" strength to make that connection. Also, apparently the profile is strong enough for the FBI to actually make the comparisons and exclude Duane and LD.

Two final questions: After taking Sheridan's DNA the FBI investigated him in Nepal and Deer Park, WA...why wouldn't they do this after receiving the DNA results? Did they do this after receiving the DNA results?

How soon after taking Sheridan's DNA did they investigate him in Nepal?  I'm assuming you know the sequence of events.  Were different agents doing parts of the investigation at different times where one group would get the DNA and one group would do other leg work, or did the DNA sample result in them then moving further along in the investigation? 

If the FBI actually has DNA that they think is Cooper's, then they really only need a few of the 13 to rule someone out.  So I'm going to hypothesis that they either don't have enough, or they did rule out Peterson and are just not saying it.  You could ask the FBI if water is wet and they would give you a standard answer of "we don't discuss that."  Somewhere along the line they got bit one too many times and are just not saying anything.  Them not answering really means nothing.  DNA from a daughter would be plenty to compare.

Georger raises good points.  Maybe he has some contacts who could help determine what partial would be needed.  I wonder about the DNA.  Hypothetically they could have samples from 3 different people on the plane, but that does not mean that all 3 samples are from the same genetic markers, so you'd have to rule out a suspect for all 3 of those samples, which means if the samples are partial, a suspect could maybe be ruled out for 2 of the 3, leaving him questionable for the 3rd.  As some of the legal experts have said here before, the government needs a conviction, and therefore needs a great match, maybe even at 13 markers. 

I'm not a legal expert or a DNA expert, but I've studied the science and the probabilities, and to be a match for even 3 or 4 of the 13 is highly improbable.  The government would not put you in jail for murder on just 3 or 4 of the 13, but if there was other evidence, it would help the case.  So if the FBI has the DNA, and they have 3 or 4 markers, and then they find someone who fits the profile (description, experience, grudge, etc.), then that should be enough for them to say they have their guy.  A conviction is next to impossible at this time I bet.

DNA is a 13 digit lottery number, in order, with decimals within those 13.  The odds of a match are in the  trillions.  If the FBI has DNA, then they can rule someone out easily.  I just don't think they have what they need.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 12:19:00 PM by fcastle866 »