Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
4 (10.3%)
25% Cooper lived
2 (5.1%)
35% Cooper lived.
1 (2.6%)
50% Cooper lived
9 (23.1%)
75% Cooper lived
8 (20.5%)
100 Cooper lived
15 (38.5%)

Total Members Voted: 34

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 302367 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4545 on: December 20, 2018, 09:46:08 AM »
Quote
OK so let me address this directly!

Its the holiday week - I do not wish to fight with anyone, not even you!

You should of thought of that before you started whining about people discussing things on a discussion forum! you start taking jabs at me for no reason.

Take all the time you need. when you come back you can either get involved or stay completely out of any given subject. makes no difference to me. if you don't like it, I suggest you move on...

Shutter
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 10:00:28 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4546 on: December 20, 2018, 09:54:33 AM »
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I'm sure that dynamite comes in all different sizes and it probably changed from the 70's to 90's when I was working with it. But I never saw any dynamite that was red in color. I can't remember exactly what color the sticks we used were, but I want to say tan or pink. The sticks we used were short though, probably 6 inches or so. They were also thick, about the same thickness as a bottle of water, certainly more than 1 inch.

Typically, dynamite is an inch and a quarter in diameter and 8 inches long. most are the color you describe but they do make red sticks.

Here is what an EXPERT says  ;D

Dynamite is usually sold in the form of cardboard cylinders about 20 cm (8 in) long and about 3.2 cm (1.25 in) in diameter, with a weight of about 190 grams (1⁄2 troy pound). A stick of dynamite thus produced contains roughly 1 MJ (megajoule) of energy.
 

Offline Parrotheadvol

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4547 on: December 20, 2018, 11:12:17 AM »
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I'm sure that dynamite comes in all different sizes and it probably changed from the 70's to 90's when I was working with it. But I never saw any dynamite that was red in color. I can't remember exactly what color the sticks we used were, but I want to say tan or pink. The sticks we used were short though, probably 6 inches or so. They were also thick, about the same thickness as a bottle of water, certainly more than 1 inch.

Typically, dynamite is an inch and a quarter in diameter and 8 inches long. most are the color you describe but they do make red sticks.

Here is what an EXPERT says  ;D

Dynamite is usually sold in the form of cardboard cylinders about 20 cm (8 in) long and about 3.2 cm (1.25 in) in diameter, with a weight of about 190 grams (1⁄2 troy pound). A stick of dynamite thus produced contains roughly 1 MJ (megajoule) of energy.

8" may be about what we used, but I thought I remembered it being bigger in diameter. I could be mistaken though, I've drank a lot of beer and a little bit of rum since those days!!
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4548 on: December 20, 2018, 01:34:21 PM »
Lead Phosphate - no info

This comes from the Citizen Sleuths website, though they list it as one of thhe interesting particles found.

It turns out that in 1971, Shell Oil had come out with a new fuel additive to replace its predecessor known as TCP.  This additive kept spark plugs from fouling by altering the lead buildup into lead phospate. (This is before unleaded gasoline.)

Lead Phosphate was also used as an additive in costume jewelry at that time period. Not much else I've found so far.

So Cooper might have checked his plugs while wearing his tie, giving them a quick wipe with his black tie, in which case he would have regularly used Shell Gas.  He also maye have owned or worked in a shell station (the gas fillers wore ties back then).  Or he may have also been in the petrochemical business, as some of the other Palladium/Calcium particles can be used in hydrogenation.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4549 on: December 20, 2018, 02:11:15 PM »
Interesting current stats on dead bodies in the Columbia and Williamette Rivers near Portland.

Apparently in summer, bodies bloat up due to the warmer water and float to surface.

Surprisingly large number.  2014-2017, average 36 bodies a year. Odd tidbit: suicide jumpers tend to remove their shoes on bridges before they jump, so they dangle a rope from the shoes when divers try to find the body. They say typically water too dark to recover. Bodies sometimes surface months afterwards.

A recent autopsy was on a body that was in the river for 18 months.

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That's just the beginning. A total of 45 human corpses—many of them "floaters" that rise up from the depths—were pulled from Portland's two major rivers between July 2016 and July 2017, according to the Multnomah County River Patrol.

That's nearly one body a week found in the water. It's more people than die in car crashes on Portland streets annually and more than twice the number of Portlanders murdered last year.

And it's not an anomaly. In the past three years, river cops say, the Willamette and Columbia rivers have coughed up an average of 36 bodies a year.

[a lot more than other cities with rivers]

The mystery points to this city's love of the outdoors and its entrenched social ills—especially homelessness and untreated mental distress. Portland's easy river access, abundance of bridges, and weather-related highs and lows are a perfect storm for claiming lives, say police, marine experts and county mental health workers.

 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4550 on: December 20, 2018, 07:49:56 PM »
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Lead Phosphate - no info

This comes from the Citizen Sleuths website, though they list it as one of thhe interesting particles found.

It turns out that in 1971, Shell Oil had come out with a new fuel additive to replace its predecessor known as TCP.  This additive kept spark plugs from fouling by altering the lead buildup into lead phospate. (This is before unleaded gasoline.)

Lead Phosphate was also used as an additive in costume jewelry at that time period. Not much else I've found so far.

So Cooper might have checked his plugs while wearing his tie, giving them a quick wipe with his black tie, in which case he would have regularly used Shell Gas.  He also maye have owned or worked in a shell station (the gas fillers wore ties back then).  Or he may have also been in the petrochemical business, as some of the other Palladium/Calcium particles can be used in hydrogenation.

Of course, if other companies used a similar additive that did the same thing, then Shell is irrelevant, but a sparkplug would still be a good candidate for lead phosphate deposite.
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4551 on: December 20, 2018, 10:25:45 PM »
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Alright, so then...

What type of person would behave as though using the radio was a hazard, but smoking cigarettes wasn't?  If we can find an area of expertise within demolition that marries these two thoughts, we can potentially boil down his background.

Or he was full of shit. Just to throw that in there again.

I believe he made the comment to try a slow information to the ground and add more fear. obviously, he had knowledge of this as well. did he read up or was he involved in this too? how many things can this guy do?

I heard this threat elsewhere. Die Hard With a Vengeance. The bad guy tells the police he has a huge bomb in a school somewhere and a radio detonator. Then he makes a veiled threat, saying that the receiver is cheap and tends to be set off by police frequencies. As a result, they stop using the police band.

So chicken or egg time - did the screenwriter get this gimmick from Cooper, or could the two of them both have seen an older film with the same gimmick? I'll see what I can turn up, because I think Cooper was big on taking other people's ideas.

Okay then...

From Dragnet, 1967, Episode titled "The Big Explosion."
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Act 1
September 15, 1967 7:01 AM Friday and Gannon report for work early. They're working with the bomb squad today in the burglary division. 8 boxes of gelatin dynamite have been stolen from an explosive magazine at a construction site. Friday and Gannon need to find out who stole them and where they are. ... Friday and Gannon arrive at the Donnelly Construction Company and talk to the night watchman who takes them into the office. ... Along with the dynamite 3 boxes of detonators have also been stolen. ... Detective Murray shows Friday and Gannon the detonators warning them if they find them they need to turn the radio off because any messages on the radio will set off the bomb.

This re-run was played all throughout the nation, in half a dozen markets in 1971, including Miami on November 22nd, 2 days before flight 305. Most of the advertisements for the episode were in Pennsylvania (hold your horses, Fkyjack) that year.

So looks like Dan-o might have been a fan of the occasional cop drama.  At the very least, this "information" about a radio setting off a bomb, true or false, was available to everybody in America at the time of Norjack.  So it's not exclusive to experts.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 12:21:35 AM by Unsurelock »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4552 on: December 20, 2018, 11:50:40 PM »
everyone is brought up watching cartoons...they always had red dynamite..


.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4553 on: December 21, 2018, 02:12:03 AM »
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Alright, so then...

What type of person would behave as though using the radio was a hazard, but smoking cigarettes wasn't?  If we can find an area of expertise within demolition that marries these two thoughts, we can potentially boil down his background.

Or he was full of shit. Just to throw that in there again.

I believe he made the comment to try a slow information to the ground and add more fear. obviously, he had knowledge of this as well. did he read up or was he involved in this too? how many things can this guy do?

I heard this threat elsewhere. Die Hard With a Vengeance. The bad guy tells the police he has a huge bomb in a school somewhere and a radio detonator. Then he makes a veiled threat, saying that the receiver is cheap and tends to be set off by police frequencies. As a result, they stop using the police band.

So chicken or egg time - did the screenwriter get this gimmick from Cooper, or could the two of them both have seen an older film with the same gimmick? I'll see what I can turn up, because I think Cooper was big on taking other people's ideas.

Okay then...

From Dragnet, 1967, Episode titled "The Big Explosion."
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Act 1
September 15, 1967 7:01 AM Friday and Gannon report for work early. They're working with the bomb squad today in the burglary division. 8 boxes of gelatin dynamite have been stolen from an explosive magazine at a construction site. Friday and Gannon need to find out who stole them and where they are. ... Friday and Gannon arrive at the Donnelly Construction Company and talk to the night watchman who takes them into the office. ... Along with the dynamite 3 boxes of detonators have also been stolen. ... Detective Murray shows Friday and Gannon the detonators warning them if they find them they need to turn the radio off because any messages on the radio will set off the bomb.

This re-run was played all throughout the nation, in half a dozen markets in 1971, including Miami on November 22nd, 2 days before flight 305. Most of the advertisements for the episode were in Pennsylvania (hold your horses, Fkyjack) that year.

So looks like Dan-o might have been a fan of the occasional cop drama.  At the very least, this "information" about a radio setting off a bomb, true or false, was available to everybody in America at the time of Norjack.  So it's not exclusive to experts.

How was (this info) "available to everybody in America at the time of Norjack." - through tv? There was no internet. You cant prove your contention because I doubt you can show any poll in 1971 showing that result you claim in a fact. Moreover the very example you site defines a very special population - police. Its just an idle statement on your part, nothing more, that this info 'was available to everybody in America at the time of Norjack'.

There are two passages of testimony at stake: (1) the subject stated that the bomb he had was electrically fused and he certainly hoped the crew would not generate any electrical currents which would trigger it! (2) . He told (me) it was an electronic device and suggested the aircraft radio be used as little as possible. He then said ‘he didn’t think radio transmissions would bother it, but he wanted the crew warned’ .

The second passage uses the word "electronic".

Several possibilities suggest themselves. If he said "electronic" then he just might have been familiar with electronic circuitry and electronic components, CMOS transistors in particular.

This whole thing, imho, is a wild card.... but it just might connect to rare earth particles found on his tie. On the one hand we have someone using what to my mind is rather sophisticated technical language, then by another act of fate the tie left on the plane winds up carrying rather rare particles not found in your average home. On the one hand we have a person using technical language expressing technical ideas not common in the general population, then by some further act of fate the tie HE may have left winds up having rather uncommon elemental particles on it!

So I am connecting the rather uncommon technical ideas Cooper voiced to Tina, with a tie which also turns out to have a very uncommon set of rare earth particles on it. People have questioned if the tie belonged to Cooper. Tom believes that it did. What Cooper chose to say may link Cooper to the tie, as related artifacts coming from a common source - Cooper himself.

That is why I believe what Cooper said about his bomb may be important; it defines a person who might also have some artifacts on his tie, not normally found in the general population ... even the population who grew up watching cartoons. But, rare particles on a tie and a person warning about electronic (electromagnet induction) might very well have a common source in one specific person - and for Cooper the two may go together quite easily given that p[erson's life. The proof that the tie belonged to Cooper may hinge on what Cooper said about his bomb. That's why this could be important. 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 02:25:56 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4554 on: December 21, 2018, 04:52:35 AM »
Tom's previous analysis of the tie belonging to Cooper yielded a 98% probability. His analysis was based on other criteria and associations. You can find his analysis, here.  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 05:02:21 AM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4555 on: December 21, 2018, 11:13:46 AM »
georger:
I think tom k's analysis of "the tie belonged to cooper" should be extended to:

"The tie belonged to Cooper for how long?"

That's because, evidently, these particles can stay on the time for a long time. Even though the tie was unused, they stayed on the tie for 30+ years.

I think the analysis people have done on the probable tie manufacture year makes sense. So there's a relatively short number of years Cooper could have owned the tie. The question is: did he own it since first sale or not? (assuming at first sale, none of these particles were on it)

I suppose there's also the possibility that he owned it, but it was used by another for some time. That's probably unlikely.

The presence of the tie tack holes (two) along with the tie bar, raises questions, in my mind.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4556 on: December 21, 2018, 03:11:35 PM »
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georger:
I think tom k's analysis of "the tie belonged to cooper" should be extended to:

"The tie belonged to Cooper for how long?"

That's because, evidently, these particles can stay on the time for a long time. Even though the tie was unused, they stayed on the tie for 30+ years.

I think the analysis people have done on the probable tie manufacture year makes sense. So there's a relatively short number of years Cooper could have owned the tie. The question is: did he own it since first sale or not? (assuming at first sale, none of these particles were on it)

I suppose there's also the possibility that he owned it, but it was used by another for some time. That's probably unlikely.

The presence of the tie tack holes (two) along with the tie bar, raises questions, in my mind.

"The tie belonged to Cooper for how long?"    Totally agree.

I would have liked some attempt to type the smoking products on the tie to Raleighs specifically.

You are not going to change Tom's conviction the tie was Cooper's, he had had for many years.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4557 on: December 21, 2018, 03:28:54 PM »
As far as I know, Tom did no analysis that shows the variation in tobacco product deposition on a tie, over
1 year
2 year
4 year or
6 year periods.

As far as I know, Tom saw some amount of tobacco product/residue and decided that meant  "a long time"

So I guess I'm not willing to believe that Tom has calibrated the length of ownership by Cooper, based on tobacco residue (or match residue, or anything like that)
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4558 on: December 21, 2018, 04:37:00 PM »
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As far as I know, Tom did no analysis that shows the variation in tobacco product deposition on a tie, over
1 year
2 year
4 year or
6 year periods.

As far as I know, Tom saw some amount of tobacco product/residue and decided that meant  "a long time"

So I guess I'm not willing to believe that Tom has calibrated the length of ownership by Cooper, based on tobacco residue (or match residue, or anything like that)

and Im in the same boat - same feelings. So far as I know every tobacco product has a brand specific formulation? Tom may not have the instrumentation to go to that level, in any event.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 04:42:42 PM by georger »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4559 on: December 23, 2018, 03:37:58 AM »
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How was (this info) "available to everybody in America at the time of Norjack." - through tv? There was no internet. You cant prove your contention because I doubt you can show any poll in 1971 showing that result you claim in a fact. Moreover the very example you site defines a very special population - police. Its just an idle statement on your part, nothing more, that this info 'was available to everybody in America at the time of Norjack'.

There are two passages of testimony at stake: (1) the subject stated that the bomb he had was electrically fused and he certainly hoped the crew would not generate any electrical currents which would trigger it! (2) . He told (me) it was an electronic device and suggested the aircraft radio be used as little as possible. He then said ‘he didn’t think radio transmissions would bother it, but he wanted the crew warned’ .

The second passage uses the word "electronic".

Several possibilities suggest themselves. If he said "electronic" then he just might have been familiar with electronic circuitry and electronic components, CMOS transistors in particular.

This whole thing, imho, is a wild card.... but it just might connect to rare earth particles found on his tie. On the one hand we have someone using what to my mind is rather sophisticated technical language, then by another act of fate the tie left on the plane winds up carrying rather rare particles not found in your average home. On the one hand we have a person using technical language expressing technical ideas not common in the general population, then by some further act of fate the tie HE may have left winds up having rather uncommon elemental particles on it!

So I am connecting the rather uncommon technical ideas Cooper voiced to Tina, with a tie which also turns out to have a very uncommon set of rare earth particles on it. People have questioned if the tie belonged to Cooper. Tom believes that it did. What Cooper chose to say may link Cooper to the tie, as related artifacts coming from a common source - Cooper himself.

That is why I believe what Cooper said about his bomb may be important; it defines a person who might also have some artifacts on his tie, not normally found in the general population ... even the population who grew up watching cartoons. But, rare particles on a tie and a person warning about electronic (electromagnet induction) might very well have a common source in one specific person - and for Cooper the two may go together quite easily given that p[erson's life. The proof that the tie belonged to Cooper may hinge on what Cooper said about his bomb. That's why this could be important.


The Dan Cooper Comic is an example of something that was not available to everybody in America.

Dragnet was.

Say, Fred, did you see Dragnet last night?
No, Lester, but I'm very familiar with it because we only have a handful of channels at this point in American history.
Oh, well it was a real gasser. Lemme tell ya all about it while we eat out of our lunch pails.
Sure, then I can tell it to my chums over Lowenbraus in a smokey bar later.


By the way, this was the second episode back after a 9-year hiatus.

As far as the particles on the tie - so you and Tom think they were deposited there by Cooper's work?  I'm pretty sure he "worked" on the bomb. Soldering, taping, gluing, clipping wires, priming (fake?) charges, cleaning connections, etc.  How is it he managed to not get any particles from the recently constructed bomb/gadget/art project on his tie?  Why is it that neither you nor Tom seem to be exploring that?  When I asked Tom his one-line response was, "We didn't see any nitrogen based particles on the tie."  That's it. That's the sum total of his response about bomb parts.  And he didn't think a lack of explosive was important enough to mention to anybody. Like Airborne Bob's lawyer, for instance.

TK had no thoughts on Lead Phosphate at all. He stated so on his website. I looked into it.  You can get Lead Phosphate off of a sparkplug in 1971.  How is this an "interesting particle" if someone can casually pick it up while tuning up their car in their driveway?  How are all of these phosphors interesting when everyone at home is watching Dragnet and Hee Haw on them?  How is a spiral of aluminum exotic when you are standing inside of an aircraft mostly made of aluminum with little holes drilled into it, creating little aluminum spirals? How is it noteworthy that he was carring rare earth elements on his tie when you could find them all 18 rows away?

If Cooper had mustard on his tie, he didn't work in a mustard factory. He ate a hot dog.

When you tell people that the world's most notorious and elusive criminal of the past 100 years worked in a CRT factory, probably Tektronix, they spend exorbitant amounts of time looking for evidence of him in that company, followed by more companies like it. If you have knowledge about these particles, it is your responsibility to these people to either share ALL of what you know or to keep your mouth shut so they don't go bashing their head into the wall chasing a ghost. 

I asked Tom nearly a year ago about the possibility of those rare earth elements coming from nuclear waste, not knowing the sizes or amounts of the particles found.  Guess what? He didn't either!  He replied, "Interesting idea about nuclear waste. When I get the stubs back I will check for a radiation signal above background."  The expert on the particles wasn't familiar enough with the particles to know that what I was suggesting was impossible - in 2018. That was my biggest revelation about this case this year - that the lead scientist on the case is nearly as in the dark as everybody else.

Here's a quiz for you, Georger:  What elements would you fashion a drill bit out of if you were going to drill through titanium on a Boeing passenger jet?  Extra credit question: Can those elements be found in a prominent spot on Tom's website? 

I'd put the answers upside-down at the bottom of the page, but since I can't:

"The standard twist drill bits used for drilling aluminum are made from HSS and have a 135° split point. Drill bits for titanium are made from cobalt vanadium for increased wear resistance."
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Cobalt. Vanadium. Two other elements Tom posted on his website in the "interesting particles found" section, neither featuring any guesses as to where they came from.
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Finally, what other samples have you or anyone else analysed of any passengers from any aircraft to test against this tie?  Don't bother responding about cost.  If the testing is incomplete, it's incomplete. No control test, no usable results.

The logic of using the tie to tell things about Cooper is still a good start, but needs to be refined.  You can't add all of the particles together and say "Cooper came from a place with all of these particles."  There is no timestamp on any of them.  A chef's kitchen rag will have tomato sauce, bacon grease, salad dressing, Chablis, chicken fat, human hair, trace pig feces, chocolate mousse, guacamole, tuna salad and dirt on it.  This doesn't mean the chef made a dish with all of those ingredients.  Try to figure out the most likely donors for each particle before lumping them together into the most convenient package.