Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
4 (10.8%)
25% Cooper lived
2 (5.4%)
35% Cooper lived.
1 (2.7%)
50% Cooper lived
8 (21.6%)
75% Cooper lived
8 (21.6%)
100 Cooper lived
14 (37.8%)

Total Members Voted: 32

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 206490 times)

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3870 on: November 08, 2018, 03:21:06 PM »
Georger: I kept the images small because of the posting limits here (200KB each, 600KB total)
I think the snips I posted are enough to show what I'm surprised no one noted before: the bent clip.
I can post more detail, if something's not clear

Here's another thing I was wondering about

People talked about fragments the FBI found post-Ingram.
That newly discovered news video taken of the FBI search, showed one big fragment. But maybe that got put in the folder.

Tom Kaye took photos of the fragments in a FBI plastic box. It's not clear to me that the box on the left really has dollar debris..maybe they used a fine sifter. Are those coins the box is sitting on? Or are coins inside the box.

In any case, you can see the total "fragments" are small..both individually and on the whole. They wouldn't have returned the stuff they found to Ingram.

The bills in the folder, must contain some Ingram bills the FBI retained as a result of the agreement between Ingram/FBI/Insurance Co.
There may also be that small fragment we saw in the video, where the FBI agent places it in a plastic bag.

I think this picture of the plastic boxes with small fragments, shows how little the FBI recovered in their search. It could have been just stuff that fell off the Ingram bills? (the testimony on how far stuff was found, is nebulous, I think)kj

I attached the "large" versions of the photos from Tom Kayes site. They haven't been snipped (it's a pain to get the large versions downloaded from Kaye's site!)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 03:22:02 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3871 on: November 08, 2018, 03:24:36 PM »
From looking at that photo, I'm not confident that plastic case on the left has dollar debris.
It looks almost like sand?
I wonder if it was tested to be sure it's dollar debris.

it may be that only the box on the right is truly dollar debris found by the FBI (possibly with a large fragment in the folder, as shown in the news video)
 

Online Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3872 on: November 08, 2018, 04:15:23 PM »
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From looking at that photo, I'm not confident that plastic case on the left has dollar debris.
It looks almost like sand?
I wonder if it was tested to be sure it's dollar debris.

it may be that only the box on the right is truly dollar debris found by the FBI (possibly with a large fragment in the folder, as shown in the news video)

If I was taking this to a bookie, I'd bet that the large fragment in the video was pieced together jigsaw-style with a bill from the Ingram bundle and nobody noticed. It's probably framed in someone's living room right now.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3873 on: November 08, 2018, 04:17:18 PM »
Yeah, I just wanted to point out that from the interviews that have been done, it's easy to speculate about vast quantities of stuff being found.

But we have pictures too. I'm assuming Tom K. took pictures of everything they had.

So the pictures provide good solid evidence to counteract speculation based on the news video and interviews.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 04:17:59 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3874 on: November 08, 2018, 04:33:46 PM »
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Georger: I kept the images small because of the posting limits here (200KB each, 600KB total)
I think the snips I posted are enough to show what I'm surprised no one noted before: the bent clip.
I can post more detail, if something's not clear

Here's another thing I was wondering about

People talked about fragments the FBI found post-Ingram.
That newly discovered news video taken of the FBI search, showed one big fragment. But maybe that got put in the folder.

Tom Kaye took photos of the fragments in a FBI plastic box. It's not clear to me that the box on the left really has dollar debris..maybe they used a fine sifter. Are those coins the box is sitting on? Or are coins inside the box.

In any case, you can see the total "fragments" are small..both individually and on the whole. They wouldn't have returned the stuff they found to Ingram.

The bills in the folder, must contain some Ingram bills the FBI retained as a result of the agreement between Ingram/FBI/Insurance Co.
There may also be that small fragment we saw in the video, where the FBI agent places it in a plastic bag.

I think this picture of the plastic boxes with small fragments, shows how little the FBI recovered in their search. It could have been just stuff that fell off the Ingram bills? (the testimony on how far stuff was found, is nebulous, I think)kj

I attached the "large" versions of the photos from Tom Kayes site. They haven't been snipped (it's a pain to get the large versions downloaded from Kaye's site!)

Agents told me the larger frags collected at TBar  were all placed in evidence envelopes, and numbered, and sent to the lab by Seattle.  Nobody seems to know the origin of tiny pieces in the boxes - the speculation is these are 'dust' and debris from the bill evidence folders collected into one or two containers at the time when the bills were being examined and divided after the court decision. The evidence folders had become full of tiny bits and pieces. Each recipient received his bills in FBI evidence folders. Brian received his bills and pieces in evidence folders which still have debris in them to this day. The more these folders were handled the more pieces broke off etc ...       
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 04:36:51 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3875 on: November 08, 2018, 04:37:30 PM »
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From looking at that photo, I'm not confident that plastic case on the left has dollar debris.
It looks almost like sand?
I wonder if it was tested to be sure it's dollar debris.

it may be that only the box on the right is truly dollar debris found by the FBI (possibly with a large fragment in the folder, as shown in the news video)

If I was taking this to a bookie, I'd bet that the large fragment in the video was pieced together jigsaw-style with a bill from the Ingram bundle and nobody noticed. It's probably framed in someone's living room right now.

Bookies werent involved.  :rofl:
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3876 on: November 08, 2018, 04:39:41 PM »
thanks georger for that.
The two plastic boxes have more content than what might be debris from evidence folder.
Look how small the stuff is in the left box? And why divide it into left box/right box if it's randomly collected?

Apparently Tom only saw one evidence plastic bag? the one shown in the picture?

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Georger: I kept the images small because of the posting limits here (200KB each, 600KB total)
I think the snips I posted are enough to show what I'm surprised no one noted before: the bent clip.
I can post more detail, if something's not clear

Here's another thing I was wondering about

People talked about fragments the FBI found post-Ingram.
That newly discovered news video taken of the FBI search, showed one big fragment. But maybe that got put in the folder.

Tom Kaye took photos of the fragments in a FBI plastic box. It's not clear to me that the box on the left really has dollar debris..maybe they used a fine sifter. Are those coins the box is sitting on? Or are coins inside the box.

In any case, you can see the total "fragments" are small..both individually and on the whole. They wouldn't have returned the stuff they found to Ingram.

The bills in the folder, must contain some Ingram bills the FBI retained as a result of the agreement between Ingram/FBI/Insurance Co.
There may also be that small fragment we saw in the video, where the FBI agent places it in a plastic bag.

I think this picture of the plastic boxes with small fragments, shows how little the FBI recovered in their search. It could have been just stuff that fell off the Ingram bills? (the testimony on how far stuff was found, is nebulous, I think)kj

I attached the "large" versions of the photos from Tom Kayes site. They haven't been snipped (it's a pain to get the large versions downloaded from Kaye's site!)

Agents told me the larger frags collected at TBar  were all placed in evidence envelopes, and numbered, and sent to the lab by Seattle.  Nobody seems to know the origin of tiny pieces in the boxes - the speculation is these are 'dust' and debris from the bill evidence folders collected into one or two containers at the time when the bills were being examined and divided after the court decision. The evidence folders had become full of tiny bits and pieces. Each recipient received his bills in FBI evidence folders. Brian received his bills and pieces in evidence folders which still have debris in them to this day. The more these folders were handled the more pieces broke off etc ...       
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 04:42:59 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3877 on: November 08, 2018, 04:41:50 PM »
It's interesting, as noted before, that there are no FOIA docs talking about the FBI lab analysis on the found bills.
There are some FOIA, from the day of the find or the press day...

but there are FBI FOIA on the butts and the fingerprints and the hair, with FBI lab headings.....Odd nothing related to bill analysis.

I'm wondering if some bill evidence envelopes were also lost?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3878 on: November 08, 2018, 04:58:33 PM »
I'm really impressed how the sleuthing on various towncraft ties, and the patent numbers, and the Penney's logo change in 1963, seems to date the tie manufacture to 63-65

I was remembering how I read in the FBI files, that they seemed totally wrong in the information they got about when it was last sold in Portland and Las Vegas. The attached FBI doc says 3 years ago (from 2/24/72) in Portland, 1-1/2 years ago in Las Vegas.

Now, a tie manufactured in 63-65 may have continued to be sold for a year or so after manufacture.

But the FBI guys never really figured out the likely manufacture time for the tie, correctly. Patent searches weren't so easy back then in early computer days!

FBI FOIA memo attached. They said it might have been sold in "the recent past"..I think another memo just mentions 1-1/2 years for possible age.

Clearly, the tie could have been 9 years old in 1972!

I think the bent tie clip I talked about, makes it more likely it's Cooper's tie too. I can imagine him tearing it off and bending the clip.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 04:59:24 PM by snowmman »
 

Online Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3879 on: November 08, 2018, 05:35:00 PM »
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From looking at that photo, I'm not confident that plastic case on the left has dollar debris.
It looks almost like sand?
I wonder if it was tested to be sure it's dollar debris.

it may be that only the box on the right is truly dollar debris found by the FBI (possibly with a large fragment in the folder, as shown in the news video)

If I was taking this to a bookie, I'd bet that the large fragment in the video was pieced together jigsaw-style with a bill from the Ingram bundle and nobody noticed. It's probably framed in someone's living room right now.

Bookies werent involved.  :rofl:


Neither were florists, or Whig Party whips, or failed coin shop owners.

Snowmman, how extensive are the pics you've seen? I've been looking for a while at individual bills I can find trying to match up that fragment. It makes sense that someone would not have tried to jam it into a box of confetti.
 

Offline FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3880 on: November 08, 2018, 07:28:06 PM »
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I think I have something new to say about the tie, as seen in the citizensleuths.com photos.

It may be obvious, but looking at a functional "snapper towncraft 3" tie I have, I notice that the white flat metal that slides behind the shirt, is bent severely on the Cooper tie and not on mine. Mine is obviously the way it should be, for good attachment.

The white metal is supposed to be touching the brass (plated?) post. I've attached a photo of my tie, showing how the white metal should be touching the brass (plated?) post.

I don't think the Cooper tie is wearable as shown in the photos, without bending the white metal back down.

Maybe this means Cooper wrenched it off and bent it.

I have a Cooper-like snapper towncraft 3 tie, but it appears to be what Flyjack calls a 1965+ model
it has patent numbers 3220015 and 3222684, as Flyjack noted.

The Cooper tie apparently has only patent number:  2972750 ??

I have attached photos of my non-bent clip, and two photos from Tom Kaye's site, that show the clip is severely bent

I wonder if my tie is similar material to the Cooper tie. In the photos the texture of the tie material in the knot, seems similar.
It might be good for a control, for trying to stick particles to it of some kind.


This is Flyjack's info: (and as noted elsewhere, the "funky P" Penney's logo label was apparently not used before 1963, which sets deduced bounds (good sleuthing!)
 
I found fragmented images of the secondary label online and on tv, the label with the patent number on it. 

The Patent label on the Cooper tie is trimmed or misaligned cutting off the last number in the patent. I finally found a full sample identical to the fragments. Turns out the patent was filed 1959 and issued 1961.. All the other ties with the same TOWNCRAFT label had two completely different patents filed 1965. 

This is the patent number on the Cooper tie: 2972750 but missing the last 0 as the label is either trimmed, altered or misaligned in the manufacturing process.
 
The later TOWNCRAFT ties have late 1965 patent#s 3220015 and 3222684

 


Are you sure it isn't Snapper "SNAPPED"...  the clip has two positions..

This image is of the same Towncraft tie, clip Snapped closed and unSnapped open....

 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3881 on: November 08, 2018, 08:39:57 PM »
oh you got me, flyjack!
that must be it
thank you! I didn't think of that!
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 08:40:30 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3882 on: November 08, 2018, 11:36:01 PM »
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It's interesting, as noted before, that there are no FOIA docs talking about the FBI lab analysis on the found bills.
There are some FOIA, from the day of the find or the press day...

but there are FBI FOIA on the butts and the fingerprints and the hair, with FBI lab headings.....Odd nothing related to bill analysis.

I'm wondering if some bill evidence envelopes were also lost?

Lab reports Tom and I were made aware of were issued on 2-11, 2-25, and 2-28 (2 reports) 1980.  There may be more? 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 11:41:52 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3883 on: November 08, 2018, 11:41:06 PM »
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thanks georger for that.
The two plastic boxes have more content than what might be debris from evidence folder.
Look how small the stuff is in the left box? And why divide it into left box/right box if it's randomly collected?

Apparently Tom only saw one evidence plastic bag? the one shown in the picture?

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Georger: I kept the images small because of the posting limits here (200KB each, 600KB total)
I think the snips I posted are enough to show what I'm surprised no one noted before: the bent clip.
I can post more detail, if something's not clear

Here's another thing I was wondering about

People talked about fragments the FBI found post-Ingram.
That newly discovered news video taken of the FBI search, showed one big fragment. But maybe that got put in the folder.

Tom Kaye took photos of the fragments in a FBI plastic box. It's not clear to me that the box on the left really has dollar debris..maybe they used a fine sifter. Are those coins the box is sitting on? Or are coins inside the box.

In any case, you can see the total "fragments" are small..both individually and on the whole. They wouldn't have returned the stuff they found to Ingram.

The bills in the folder, must contain some Ingram bills the FBI retained as a result of the agreement between Ingram/FBI/Insurance Co.
There may also be that small fragment we saw in the video, where the FBI agent places it in a plastic bag.

I think this picture of the plastic boxes with small fragments, shows how little the FBI recovered in their search. It could have been just stuff that fell off the Ingram bills? (the testimony on how far stuff was found, is nebulous, I think)kj

I attached the "large" versions of the photos from Tom Kayes site. They haven't been snipped (it's a pain to get the large versions downloaded from Kaye's site!)

Agents told me the larger frags collected at TBar  were all placed in evidence envelopes, and numbered, and sent to the lab by Seattle.  Nobody seems to know the origin of tiny pieces in the boxes - the speculation is these are 'dust' and debris from the bill evidence folders collected into one or two containers at the time when the bills were being examined and divided after the court decision. The evidence folders had become full of tiny bits and pieces. Each recipient received his bills in FBI evidence folders. Brian received his bills and pieces in evidence folders which still have debris in them to this day. The more these folders were handled the more pieces broke off etc ...       

Keep in mind, due to the advanced state of the bills, decomposition is a continuing process. Nothing was done to stabilize or preserve these bills. Not sure how the addition of silver nitrate solution to some bills would affect that process. But, the bills are decomposing just as they sit in their evidence folders! In time they will all be small piles of fragments and dust. In addition to that I dont think the old style manila evidence folders are acid free. A conservator would have stored these bills in a completely different way ...

They also did some screening at Tina Bar. Maybe some of these pieces came from that process?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 01:57:21 AM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3884 on: November 09, 2018, 02:06:36 PM »
Has this been discussed? Cooper initially asking for two parachutes?

I found a 11/30/71  FBI memo from a Seattle SAC that had an overview of the hijack

In it, it claims that Cooper at first asked for $200,000 and two parachutes. And then after that he dictated the initial note which asked for 4 parachutes total.

attached snip
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 02:09:26 PM by snowmman »