DB COOPER

General Category => DB Cooper => Topic started by: Shutter on February 24, 2014, 08:36:59 AM

Title: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 24, 2014, 08:36:59 AM
This area will be for basic discussion of the topic of DB Cooper.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 24, 2014, 12:04:33 PM
check
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 24, 2014, 02:26:39 PM
Nice photos ... I hope people show up? You have done a lot of work here! I guess time will tell.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 24, 2014, 02:29:11 PM
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Nice photos ... I hope people show up? You have done a lot of work here! I guess time will tell.


I like the photo option. you see the photo, and then can click to enlarge it.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Coopsnoop on February 24, 2014, 05:25:04 PM
Nice job, Shutter.   I hope your site takes off.  Maybe you can team-up with Bruce Smith and make a go of it.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 24, 2014, 05:54:33 PM
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Nice job, Shutter.   I hope your site takes off.  Maybe you can team-up with Bruce Smith and make a go of it.

Thanks, I have no problem teaming up with Bruce. this was also his idea. we had some different idea's while talking on the phone, but I continued looking into options. I spent the weekend off and on working on this from scratch. the bottom line is that we need a discussion for the topics at hand, not the topics of arguments that constantly stop forward motion. this could be the possible resting place. I don't know, time will tell.  8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on February 24, 2014, 08:00:19 PM
Checking in!!!  Looks good shutter!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 24, 2014, 08:03:48 PM
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Checking in!!!  Looks good shutter!

Thanks, let's see if we can get it running...... 8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: smokin99 on February 24, 2014, 08:42:56 PM
Nice job Shutter.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 24, 2014, 08:59:34 PM
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Nice job Shutter.

Thanks smoke, still not complete though. lot's of loose ends on here. still looking at other themes, getting familiar with all of the options etc. it wasn't as easy as the directions claimed on the box  8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: smokin99 on February 24, 2014, 09:11:07 PM
It never is. That's why I throw out the directions to start with. ;D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 24, 2014, 09:31:40 PM
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It never is. That's why I throw out the directions to start with. ;D

This was a nightmare. I had to sign up to a webhost that had a c-panel. then I had to reconfigure everything in there. I had another computer running a You Tube video once I was stumped. then configure the forum. I ended up going onto a third computer. this one couldn't do certain things unless I cleared out the cache, which means losing everything. passwords and such. I think I got it online about 3:00 last night. I kept putting it off due to other things I had to do this weekend. I finally got into it last nite, do or die lol.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on February 24, 2014, 10:04:55 PM
Looking good!

Can we have a special category for bashing other members?  Or does Blevins need his own?   ;D ;D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 24, 2014, 10:25:18 PM
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Looking good!

Can we have a special category for bashing other members?  Or does Blevins need his own?   ;D ;D

Thanks. Mr. Blevins will be bashing himself after one post on here. it's sad that it had to come to this point, but we had no option. I'm sure he will be saying something soon via DZ. hopefully we can have actual discussions here without the insults. we have already had a lot of people sign in today. I hope we can make this work, and also exist elsewhere in the Cooper community. the forum is still in review with all the options to go through yet. lots of possibilities here.


I would also like to thank everyone for allowing this to happen. it's my pleasure, along with Bruce that this has made it to this point. speak out about any issues, any adjustments needed. like Frasier Crane always said, "I'm Listening"  8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: smokin99 on February 24, 2014, 11:26:07 PM
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check

Do you have to add image using something like photobucket or can you upload and inline it?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 24, 2014, 11:54:07 PM
look down below the post box while making a new post. click where it says attachments and other options. this will open the image control to post your image from your computer.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 25, 2014, 12:03:46 AM
also the pics are visible on each post. you can click on the image to enlarge it. then click again to shrink it back down. Hyperlinks
are on the second row, second button in. hit the button and copy link in between the two URL's that show up on the post. the cursor will be blinking, simply right click and paste it. I always hit enter after and get away from the link pasted.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 25, 2014, 12:09:32 AM
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Nice job Shutter.

Thanks smoke, still not complete though. lot's of loose ends on here. still looking at other themes, getting familiar with all of the options etc. it wasn't as easy as the directions claimed on the box  8)

Can one make attachments?  I think you've one huge job here - fast! Looks good.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Coopsnoop on February 25, 2014, 12:10:16 AM
all the vitriol over at the DZ seems to be caused by Mr. Blevins.  If you let him into your new site, Shutter, it won't take long for it to go the way of the Drop Zone.  And that would be too bad; for one lone critter to wipe out years of progress, discussions, and friendships.   The real researchers need a place to share ideas, not to constantly fight one fanatic who brings nothing to the discussion.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 25, 2014, 12:12:48 AM
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all the vitriol over at the DZ seems to be caused by Mr. Blevins.  If you let him into your new site, Shutter, it won't take long for it to go the way of the Drop Zone.  And that would be too bad; for one lone critter to wipe out years of progress, discussions, and friendships.   The real researchers need a place to share ideas, not to constantly fight one fanatic who brings nothing to the discussion.

I think we need to everyone at Bruce's page over here and consolidate this ??? The more I look around here Shutter the better it looks - wow! Great job.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 25, 2014, 12:15:03 AM
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all the vitriol over at the DZ seems to be caused by Mr. Blevins.  If you let him into your new site, Shutter, it won't take long for it to go the way of the Drop Zone.  And that would be too bad; for one lone critter to wipe out years of progress, discussions, and friendships.   The real researchers need a place to share ideas, not to constantly fight one fanatic who brings nothing to the discussion.


It's not going to happen. this was part of the reason why we are here. it would only move the problem, instead of solving the problem. some think it might be harsh, but that's how it must be. so, Blevins can stay right where he wants. with the exception of here.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 25, 2014, 12:16:00 AM
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look down below the post box while making a new post. click where it says attachments and other options. this will open the image control to post your image from your computer.

OK-   The only flaw I see so far is when I post my comments the page it leaves the page and reverts back to the categories page ? (It should stay on the same page where one just posted) ?

Lets go ping Galen and Bruce etal and see what they want to do ... I just assumed everyone was coming here ?

BTW, for whatever its worth I like this format better than the old Websleuths format. 



Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 25, 2014, 12:16:27 AM
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all the vitriol over at the DZ seems to be caused by Mr. Blevins.  If you let him into your new site, Shutter, it won't take long for it to go the way of the Drop Zone.  And that would be too bad; for one lone critter to wipe out years of progress, discussions, and friendships.   The real researchers need a place to share ideas, not to constantly fight one fanatic who brings nothing to the discussion.

I think we need to everyone at Bruce's page over here and consolidate this ??? The more I look around here Shutter the better it looks - wow! Great job.


Thanks G, look a couple posts up. I explain about attachments and pics....I noticed the change page too G. I think it's going to be like that. DZ diverts away as well, but brings you back. I'll see what I can find out. might be fixable...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 25, 2014, 12:22:33 AM
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all the vitriol over at the DZ seems to be caused by Mr. Blevins.  If you let him into your new site, Shutter, it won't take long for it to go the way of the Drop Zone.  And that would be too bad; for one lone critter to wipe out years of progress, discussions, and friendships.   The real researchers need a place to share ideas, not to constantly fight one fanatic who brings nothing to the discussion.

I think we need to everyone at Bruce's page over here and consolidate this ??? The more I look around here Shutter the better it looks - wow! Great job.


Thanks G, look a couple posts up. I explain about attachments and pics....I noticed the change page too G. I think it's going to be like that. DZ diverts away as well, but brings you back. I'll see what I can find out. might be fixable...

It should stay on the same page (in the same category) one is posting on. I am just amazed you got this going at all - you deserve HUGE credit! Gold medal! 8)   

Let me go ping Galen and Bruce etal ... they need to see this ASAP!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 25, 2014, 12:27:23 AM
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check

Do you have to add image using something like photobucket or can you upload and inline it?


no, look at the first post on this page. you can post pics from your puter.....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Coopsnoop on February 25, 2014, 12:35:19 AM
Yes, this is going to be a high-tech site.  Nicely done.  can you go over to the Drop Zone and let people over there know where this site is?  That would help get the ball rolling so the site can get down to some serious discussions.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 25, 2014, 12:40:31 AM
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Yes, this is going to be a high-tech site.  Nicely done.  can you go over to the Drop Zone and let people over there know where this site is?  That would help get the ball rolling so the site can get down to some serious discussions.

I only alerted a few from DZ. some are already here. they signed up, but haven't posted yet.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: smokin99 on February 25, 2014, 12:43:30 AM
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Nice job Shutter.

Thanks smoke, still not complete though. lot's of loose ends on here. still looking at other themes, getting familiar with all of the options etc. it wasn't as easy as the directions claimed on the box  8)

I like this theme. Easy on the .....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: smokin99 on February 25, 2014, 12:56:14 AM
Okay... looks like to post a pic under your post you just attach the jpg/gif file as you said. Easy enough.....

If you want to insert an image in line with your text, I think that's when you might have to use photobucket and the img html? Let me know if I'm wrong, but looks like that's the deal. I've been on other sites that you had to do that also.
No biggie, there -- usually no need to insert an image into the text anyway.

 :) Sorry - just trying out all the bells and whistles......  ;D 
Okay...I promise not to go crazy with the colors.   :) 

Oops...lol....I guess we should have been posting in the "New Forum" category. Citizen's arrest, citizen's arrest   ;D ;D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 25, 2014, 01:02:24 AM
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Okay... looks like to post a pic under your post you just attach the jpg/gif file as you said. Easy enough.....

If you want to insert an image in line with your text, I think that's when you might have to use photobucket and the img html? Let me know if I'm wrong, but looks like that's the deal. I've been on other sites that you had to do that also.
No biggie, there -- usually no need to insert an image into the text anyway.

 :) Sorry - just trying out all the bells and whistles......  ;D 
Okay...I promise not to go crazy with the colors.   :) 

Oops...lol....I guess we should have been posting in the "New Forum" category. Citizen's arrest, citizen's arrest   ;D ;D


I'm not sure about the image with the text. I'm use to the old school way  8) I haven't looked into all the options. feel free to guide us along with anything you discover. I don't know a lot about this yet. I'm learning as I go, just as you guys are.  8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 25, 2014, 01:12:27 AM
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Okay... looks like to post a pic under your post you just attach the jpg/gif file as you said. Easy enough.....

If you want to insert an image in line with your text, I think that's when you might have to use photobucket and the img html? Let me know if I'm wrong, but looks like that's the deal. I've been on other sites that you had to do that also.
No biggie, there -- usually no need to insert an image into the text anyway.

 :) Sorry - just trying out all the bells and whistles......  ;D 
Okay...I promise not to go crazy with the colors.   :) 

Oops...lol....I guess we should have been posting in the "New Forum" category. Citizen's arrest, citizen's arrest   ;D ;D


I'm not sure about the image with the text. I'm use to the old school way  8) I haven't looked into all the options. feel free to guide us along with anything you discover. I don't know a lot about this yet. I'm learning as I go, just as you guys are.  8)

lets see - Restrictions: 4 per post, maximum total size 192KB, maximum individual size 128KB
???

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 25, 2014, 01:24:06 AM
yes, it's another thing on the list, checking if the size can be increased. certainly not a deal breaker, but I've already notice some of my pics need to be lowered to fit the size limit.  :-\

I just raised it to 192KB's...... 8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 25, 2014, 02:46:53 AM
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Nice job, Shutter.   I hope your site takes off.  Maybe you can team-up with Bruce Smith and make a go of it.

Howdy Snoop, I'm here and happy to lend my time and talents to help The Shutter build this site to be what we want it to be.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 25, 2014, 02:54:35 AM
Shutter - I like this site!  I think this is where we should build the Golden City on the Hill, to borrow from GHWB.

I also think that this cateogry is where everyone is graviting to.  I'll spread the word, and post a link at the WordPress blog, also known as Bruce's site. (smile).
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 25, 2014, 07:31:43 AM
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Shutter - I like this site!  I think this is where we should build the Golden City on the Hill, to borrow from GHWB.

I also think that this cateogry is where everyone is graviting to.  I'll spread the word, and post a link at the WordPress blog, also known as Bruce's site. (smile).

Thanks Bruce, I didn't expect the positive feedback to be so great that I'm seeing on here. I just thought I would toss the idea out and see if people liked what I built. (blush)

I think at this point we should consider ourselves "moving on" and try to put things that happened in the past and continue to move forward forgetting the negative things that happened on DZ. the less we discuss it, the quicker it should disappear. I seen you mentioned the spell checker issue in the other category. I'll check again and make sure it's on for the posters. it works on my side.

added: Bruce, go to your profile and post your link to The Mountain News. after you do this it will have the link with your post profile at the bottom, along with other option to contact you. (see photo) to enlarge the pic simply click on it. to shrink it, click on it again. 8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on February 25, 2014, 03:15:03 PM
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I think at this point we should consider ourselves "moving on" and try to put things that happened in the past and continue to move forward

I agree!  Let's not talk about who crashed whose 727s and how many planes they might or might not have destroyed.... ;D

Seriously, though.  I agree.  Hopefully we can get this site to what DZ was a few years ago.

I see Sailshaw has joined.....I wanted to make sure Meyer Louie knew about the new site here, so I'll email him later.  Someone also suggested the Foremans.  Jerry Thomas as well.  Here's hoping for Sluggo and Snowmman.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 25, 2014, 04:46:24 PM
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I think at this point we should consider ourselves "moving on" and try to put things that happened in the past and continue to move forward

I agree!  Let's not talk about who crashed whose 727s and how many planes they might or might not have destroyed.... ;D

Seriously, though.  I agree.  Hopefully we can get this site to what DZ was a few years ago.

I see Sailshaw has joined.....I wanted to make sure Meyer Louie knew about the new site here, so I'll email him later.  Someone also suggested the Foremans.  Jerry Thomas as well.  Here's hoping for Sluggo and Snowmman.


Yes, I forgot a few that you mentioned. I hope they jump aboard  8) the main goal here is to have an active mature discussion group about DB Cooper. I'm sure some tempers will flare, but I'm sure the people on here will not let it get out of hand. I put a lot of trust in each and everyone of you to respect the forum, and each other. I don't anticipate any major problems. (fingers crossed). respect goes a long way.... 8) personally I think smokin99 would make a great moderator. I wouldn't ask for any extra time on here. I think she would be fair under any conditions that might occur.

I was thinking about putting you in the simulator and have you circle the thread for security, but it dawned on me rather quickly about your flying skills. basically it wouldn't get off the ground HA Ha Ha
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 25, 2014, 05:24:16 PM
Quote
added: Bruce, go to your profile and post your link to The Mountain News. after you do this it will have the link with your post profile at the bottom, along with other option to contact you. (see photo) to enlarge the pic simply click on it. to shrink it, click on it again. 8)

Hi Shutter, I went to my profile and after a bit of hittin' and missin' I put in stuff.  Now, I'm taking it for a test run.  If I see any 727s circling, I'll let you know...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 25, 2014, 05:26:07 PM
Hmmm. I don't see my changed profile.  I'll re-visit after some pancakes.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 25, 2014, 05:58:02 PM
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Hmmm. I don't see my changed profile.  I'll re-visit after some pancakes.


ok, go to your profile and look for the box Modify Profile. click on that and a box will come down, click on forum profile. scroll down and you will see where to insert your link. just above that box, you can write "The Mountain News" see the photo's provided. make sure you click on the "save profile" button at the lower right. if you get stumped, just call me  8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on February 25, 2014, 08:51:49 PM
Shutter, awesome job!

I hated when Bruce got booted from DZ, but I think it turned out to be a good thing. Hopefully some of the old guard will show up here. PLF, Snow and Sluggo would be great! Also would like Flyjack to show up as well. I enjoyed posts the short time he was at DZ.

Look forward to witnessing you guys solve this thing! ;D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 25, 2014, 09:13:17 PM
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Shutter, awesome job!

I hated when Bruce got booted from DZ, but I think it turned out to be a good thing. Hopefully some of the old guard will show up here. PLF, Snow and Sluggo would be great! Also would like Flyjack to show up as well. I enjoyed posts the short time he was at DZ.

Look forward to witnessing you guys solve this thing! ;D


Thanks, and welcome. I've received lots of positive comments. I look forward to getting into some good conversation that has been missing for some time. all good people you mention above. I hope they all join us here. I'm sure the new car smell will wear off soon, and we can start the ball rolling. still in the moving in and cozy up stage while some more people join into the forum. grab a beverage, pull up a chair and take a look around. feedback is welcome and help with any questions you might have will be addressed.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: smokin99 on February 25, 2014, 11:54:48 PM
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Shutter, awesome job!

I hated when Bruce got booted from DZ, but I think it turned out to be a good thing. Hopefully some of the old guard will show up here. PLF, Snow and Sluggo would be great! Also would like Flyjack to show up as well. I enjoyed posts the short time he was at DZ.

Look forward to witnessing you guys solve this thing! ;D


Thanks, and welcome. I've received lots of positive comments. I look forward to getting into some good conversation that has been missing for some time. all good people you mention above. I hope they all join us here. I'm sure the new car smell will wear off soon, and we can start the ball rolling. still in the moving in and cozy up stage while some more people join into the forum. grab a beverage, pull up a chair and take a look around. feedback is welcome and help with any questions you might have will be addressed.

just trying something out
Title: Re: Ping for Meyer ...
Post by: georger on February 26, 2014, 04:09:05 PM
Meyer .... I haven't forgotten you! I am working on something for you. My plate is really full right now
... give me a couple of more days...

Thanks - G.
 :)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 26, 2014, 04:19:54 PM
Slightly off-topic, but I've come across a wonderful TV series on Netflix that features a great detective, a retired cop named Lt Joe Kenda.  The show is called "Homicide Hunter," and is completely based on his case files.

The real hit of the show is Kenda, who gives a narrative analysis of the case as it unfolds in re-enactments and interviews with principals.

I'm going to contact Joe and see if he wants to take a crack at Cooper.  His sletuhing skills are top-notch.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 27, 2014, 01:16:09 AM
Another slightly off-topic post, but I just watched "Dirty Wars" on Netflix, and it made me think a lot about SOG, Ted Braden and the boys.  This time, it's JSOC - Joint Special Operations Command.

I recommend the movie.  It also shows a dogged reporter getting his story.  Inspiring.

AS for getting ahold of Joe Kenda, I called the Colorado Springs PD, but they didn't want to be the intermediary for me getting in touch with Joe.  Hnce, I'm gogin through the production company for Homicde Hunter.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Coopsnoop on March 01, 2014, 05:12:02 PM
Hey Bruce Smith:  see if you can use your marketing outreach to get more viewers over to Shutter's site.  This is definitely the premier Cooper discussion and research location.  Maybe even your pal Sluggo will come over.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 01, 2014, 10:59:54 PM
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Hey Bruce Smith:  see if you can use your marketing outreach to get more viewers over to Shutter's site.  This is definitely the premier Cooper discussion and research location.  Maybe even your pal Sluggo will come over.


I have sent an email to everyone I know in Cooper World.  Despite my enormous affection for Sluggo he rarely responds to my emails, but does occasionally. I think his Cooper fuel tanks are running a bit dry these days.

Snowmman is another fella I miss a lot, too.  But the only way I can get ahold of Snow is through 377, and I can only speculate on what kind of influence Mark has on the Elusive One.

I have also posted links at the DB Cooper discussion site blog.  I trust folks will come here. Perhaps we could make this a combined Cooper Discussion - Dating Service site.  That might drive more traffic here.

Anybody wanna date me? I all yours, at least for lunch. Just tell me where and when.  brucesmith AT rainierconnect DOT com.

I'm also available to share all the romantic gossip I have....

As for my body, well, I'm pretty fat but not obese.  My cardiologist wants me to lose about 40 pounds (actually he said 50 but that's about what I weighed in high school - 180 - and that's just not gonna happen.) I'm 64 and generally cranky.  But I do like to tell jokes and good stories. For some reason my face is often red with psoriasis, but I stay ahead of cosmetic disasters with an assortment of hydrocortisone creams and lubricants. I sleep late and force myself out of bed by noon, but I'm roaring at 1 am. I give decent back rubs, and I've only fallen asleep while making love once, which I think isn't too bad for a guy that's been married three times.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Coopsnoop on March 02, 2014, 04:13:43 AM
Sorry, Bruce.  I'm spoken for.  I think Georger and Shutter are too.  Go to the DZ and ask over there.  But be careful what you wish for ..........you might get...........................(you know who).
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: MeyerLouie on March 02, 2014, 06:03:27 AM
Hey Mark,  thanks for the email about the new, exciting, refreshing, no-more-dark-cloud, informative, breath-of-fresh-air, fun site that Shutter has worked so hard to get together for us.  Thanks Shutter.  I don't know what I'm doing yet, so I'll just hit the preview and post buttons and see what happens to my first, official post.  Almost feels like a reunion here, so good to talk with friends again in Cooper sleuth-dom.  I missed the discussion, I missed you guys.  I see real, substantive discussion coming from this site -- I look forward to it.  Meyer

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I think at this point we should consider ourselves "moving on" and try to put things that happened in the past and continue to move forward

I agree!  Let's not talk about who crashed whose 727s and how many planes they might or might not have destroyed.... ;D

Seriously, though.  I agree.  Hopefully we can get this site to what DZ was a few years ago.

I see Sailshaw has joined.....I wanted to make sure Meyer Louie knew about the new site here, so I'll email him later.  Someone also suggested the Foremans.  Jerry Thomas as well.  Here's hoping for Sluggo and Snowmman.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: MeyerLouie on March 02, 2014, 06:06:24 AM
I just thought I'd try the reply button and see what happens....I'm on the learning curve here.  What I don't know could fill volumes!  Meyer
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 02, 2014, 09:46:43 AM
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I just thought I'd try the reply button and see what happens....I'm on the learning curve here.  What I don't know could fill volumes!  Meyer


Hi Meyer, if you have any problems just give a shout. you can also PM me as well for any trouble you are experiencing. I can guide you thru the jungle  8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Coopsnoop on March 04, 2014, 05:56:44 PM
Hey Bruce, i think 377 found his lady on line.  She's a math teacher like Louie(?).  Maybe one of them can get you hooked-up.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 05, 2014, 07:04:15 AM
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LOL maybe you should ban me and close my account now? This is Robert Blevins. Yes, DungeonsWizard is yours truly. Make sure you stifle anyone with something decent to say, or pick on poor kids by doing so. BTW...this post was copied for my FB and Twitter accounts. You can consider that. We will call it a test in decency. Pass/Fail is the only grade allowed.



I will deal with this troubled person after I return from work. this guy has something wrong with him for sure.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 05, 2014, 06:32:55 PM
Ok, I will only post this once. I don't want to continue the issue. Robert Blevins was on this forum under a false  name of "DungeonsWizard". I asked Bruce if he knew who this was but didn't. I let it go, and it turned out to be Mr. Blevins. he is trying his best to disrupt this forum simply because he is not welcome here. In my opinion Blevins has stability issues that I can't help him with.

I would like all of you to keep your opinions of Mr. Blevins off this forum. If you have anything to say about him, I suggest you contact Quade on Dropzone.com about his behavior. I have sent two replies to Quade in the last week about his behavior. I haven't heard anything yet. it's causing disruption to both sites, and needs to stop.

You can also PM me if you have any questions......

Thanks

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: smokin99 on March 06, 2014, 09:42:09 PM
For anyone wanting to learn more about Ol' Dan Cooper outside of the different forums:
 
See the Cooper vault for links and things!!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 15, 2014, 10:21:46 PM
Here is a picture of old 305 being scrapped. someone should have taken the stairs!!!!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: smokin99 on March 22, 2014, 09:51:39 PM
I found this today -- not sure where to put this but this seems as good a place as any..... The article is halfway down the page.... I've often thought that we are too quick to define Tina's actions and life within the context of the hijacking. Maybe it was all as simple as it looked...... a devout person who was looking for her niche in life.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19821010&id=O4URAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KOIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3891,2489465 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19821010&id=O4URAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KOIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3891,2489465) 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 06, 2014, 08:41:16 PM
I wouldn't want to be this guy!!!!

http://giphy.com/gifs/12nhgWOBQeNxGU
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 13, 2014, 08:18:04 PM
Get a load of this story....

http://unveiledsecretsandmessagesoflight.blogspot.com/2009/11/db-cooper-case.html

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 14, 2014, 03:37:38 AM
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Get a load of this story....

http://unveiledsecretsandmessagesoflight.blogspot.com/2009/11/db-cooper-case.html


Wow.  I guess I ought to go to northern Mexico soon and look for David Warren, eh?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on April 14, 2014, 12:44:06 PM
Also check for Judge Crater while you are there.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on April 14, 2014, 04:00:54 PM
Further on this matter, Grupo Elon seems to be something that would be of interest to some of the posters on another thread.  Among other things, they have the date of the Cooper hijacking wrong and apparently are suggesting that Brian Ingram didn't really find any of the ransom money at Tina Bar.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 14, 2014, 08:18:36 PM
you mean these guys ....

http://unveiledsecretsandmessagesoflight.blogspot.com/2010/08/grupo-elron.html
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on April 14, 2014, 10:14:00 PM
That is them!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on April 15, 2014, 02:51:59 PM
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This area will be for basic discussion of the topic of DB Cooper.

http://www.policeone.com/investigations/articles/7082608-New-FBI-fingerprint-tech-key-to-resolving-Ill-cold-case/

Here is an article about the FBI's new generation fingerprint technology. I wonder if Eng would authorize the latent prints lifted from the airplane to run through the new updated system. Also, I wonder if how many fingerprints have been uploaded into the system pre-1971. From information forwarded to me by the Dane County Sheriffs Dept (Wisconsin) and my liaison officer at NamUs, my father's prints  are still on a fingerprint card and were not uploaded to IAFIS (the fingerprint identification system used after 1999 to the present).

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on April 15, 2014, 03:37:23 PM
Vicki, give it a shot and contact the FBI.  The cost should be near zero and, based on the OK state results, there is a good chance (20%) of something worthwhile coming from this.

In any event, I would suggest that you ask the Sheriff to get those prints into the FBI's system.  And for the FBI to check them against their entire database.

Eventually, someone has to win the jackpot and, sooner or later, it could be you.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on April 15, 2014, 04:24:51 PM
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Vicki, give it a shot and contact the FBI.  The cost should be near zero and, based on the OK state results, there is a good chance (20%) of something worthwhile coming from this.

In any event, I would suggest that you ask the Sheriff to get those prints into the FBI's system.  And for the FBI to check them against their entire database.

Eventually, someone has to win the jackpot and, sooner or later, it could be you.

Thank Robert,

I sent the following email with the link to my liaison officer at NamUs:

Hi Janet,

According to this article, the FBI has a new fingerprint system that will be slowly replacing the IAFIS system that has been used since 1999. I know we have spoke previously about having my father's (Melvin Wilson) fingerprints uploaded into IAFIS. I know NamUs has them, however I do not know if they have been uploaded into the FBI's system.

I know this is a long-shot as SA Crtis Eng from the Seattle FO is the know-all do-all behind the Cooper case as he was for the DNA comparisons. However...is he the head dog on the latent fingerprints left on the plane on November 24, 1971? 

What I am saying is...if the latent prints are in the IAFIS or new system database, could they be waiting for the addition of prints that could match?  Just thinking out loud!  ;)

I hope all is well with you.


NamUs has my Dad's prints from his arrest file at Dane County for the passing of counterfeit notes from 04/20/1971. They were forwarded by the Sheriffs Department to NamUs last year and added to their database.

The issue we are having with SA Eng is any correspondence from my DOJ liaison is answered with a generic note from Ayn Deitrich. Here is their last interaction:

My Liaison at NamUs sent this email to Curtis Eng:

Agent Eng,
     Please accept this as my formal request to request the FBI lab to compare the DNA samples you have of D.B. Cooper, with the samples that the University of N. Texas has with one Melvin Wilson, UNT missing person MP# 15178.
     This potential match has been requested before, but was not responded to.
     Your assistance with this comparison would be greatly appreciated.


Here is the reply she received from Ayn:

Hello, Ms. ------------—
 
I work with Special Agent Eng in the FBI Seattle field office and I handle inquiries from the media and public.  SA Eng forwarded me your email so I could explain to you the limitations we face in responding to your inquiry.
 
During any given investigation, the FBI receives many tips, follows many leads, and talks to many people.  In accordance with DOJ policy, we cannot discuss details of ongoing investigations. This includes not disclosing subjects considered and/or excluded, and investigative techniques that may be used.  I understand the public and valued partners to the FBI are curious about the FBI's investigative process, and they may rest assured that the FBI pursues all leads that we believe will provide us with information of investigative value. 

SA Eng has received your messages and handled them appropriately.  I apologize that we are unable to disclose the nature and extent of our investigative response.
 
Regards,
Ayn


I guess I can't win the jackpot unless I play!!!! So GAME ON...We can only hope the Seattle FO will play along.   :)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on April 15, 2014, 04:36:17 PM
Ayn Deitrich's response appears to be a standard post-Marla Cooper reply.  But get Melvin's prints into the FBI's database if at all possible.  Presumably, the US Marshalls would have done that in 1971. 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on April 15, 2014, 04:44:41 PM
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Ayn Deitrich's response appears to be a standard post-Marla Cooper reply.  But get Melvin's prints into the FBI's database if at all possible.  Presumably, the US Marshalls would have done that in 1971.

You would assume, however the Western District of Wisconsin's US Marshal's office in Madison could not inform me what was done or being done on this cold case. The case is still open, but in November 2001 they closed it to further investigation.

The FBI has the prints...but would they upload them into a system that went online in 1999 if the case was under the jurisdiction of another Federal division? We all know that these departments do not communicate or play well together with their information. Obviously, this practice still goes on today.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on April 16, 2014, 03:48:39 PM
http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/04/16/don_draper_to_become_d_b_cooper_in_mad_men_finale_a_skyjacking_expert_weighs.html

A recent article about the Mad Men DB Cooper plot. Geoffrey Gray was interviewed for this article (Geoffrey posted this on Facebook).
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 21, 2014, 10:14:01 PM
Interesting video here. Cooper is not discussed until about 12 minutes in. he claims 6 bills are missing from the bundle found in 1980????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5oKpArHKuw

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 21, 2014, 10:31:52 PM
The Redneck Archaeologist Show  8) he also claims missing bills

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9YeXT-6m9s
Title: Re: Did Cooper inspect the chutes ???
Post by: georger on April 22, 2014, 04:51:13 PM
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The Redneck Archaeologist Show  8) he also claims missing bills

Im going to post the following in response to "Did Cooper inspect the chutes", alleged by RMB elsewhere. RMB's weak claim is that 'ex-military people would inspect the chutes, novices would not inspect the chutes, Cooper did inspect the chutes, therefore: Cooper was ex-military and probably was Christiansen!' This evokes responses by both 377 and myself as follows:

Issue: Cooper inspecting of chutes provided:

Unless Cooper examined the packing cards (and this is disputed, Himmelsbach told me personally that there is no evidence that it happened), there is no way Cooper could know what canopy was inside each container. With an NB 6 or 8 it was likely to have a miltary high speed ejection canopy inside but by no means certain.

The canopy is far more important than the harness and container for being able to safely deploy at high speeds. I have heard af canopies blowing up if deployed above rated speeds but harness failures are extremely rare and are usually due to preexisting unrepaired damage.

According to Norman both rigs had the same military high speed canopies inside but Cooper may not have known that. Just slipping a bit of fabric out to examine it wouldn't tell you much about canopy type, size and speed rating. It would just tell you whether it was made of ripstop or twill material.

Cooper did make the right choice in my opinion but without knowing more about his thought process and whether he examined the packing cards, we cant rule out the possibility that it was a random choice.

I have a recent email address for Sheridan and wrote to him but he continues to ignore me. The very good news is that he got radiation treatment for his cancer and says that he is cured. He also posted on a blog that he was beaten up. By who? Why? I asked him but no response. Who would beat up a sick man in his 80s?

When I sent him the cheer package through Bruce a few years ago he was very grateful and friendly but later flipped and called me FBI CIA etc. I tried to send him another cheer package during the holidays at the end of 2013, but he would not supply an address.

Anyway I am very glad his health is improving. Too bad I cant have a dialog with him. I'd love to hear his opinion about Norjack and Cooper. I'd also like to know why he thinks the FBI even bothered asking a blue eyed man for a DNA sample to rule him out as Cooper? Think about it, that is quite odd. His eye color alone should have ruled him out but the FBI apparently didnt agree.

377    -   reply by Georger below…

The other issue is what did the stews SEE Cooper do when the chutes were brought on board at approx 5:30pm pst until the time when Tina goes forward, turns and watches Cooper, then goes into the cockpit at roughly ~7:42pm pst ("Stewardess
(Mucklow) is with us (in cockpit)". This spans roughly 2 hours and 12 minutes!

Posts by Ckret etal about what the stews saw and testified to, go way back in the thread. This has all be thoroughly discussed before...

Hancock (Ckret) reported 'Cooper began putting on a parachute almost immediately after they were brought in' (~5:30pm). Tina confirmed that (Ckret) and added ' he put it on easily as if he had done it before' and 'he refused instructions that I handed him saying "I don't need those'' '. Tina added: 'He opened one of the chutes and looked inside then closed it up before putting it on'. All of this transpired shortly after the chutes being brought on board and given Cooper at roughly 5:30pm pst.

The next reference to Cooper's preparations or chutes comes at roughly 7:42pm pst when Tina (now in the cockpit) reports she 'saw Cooper open one chute and began trying to dump money into the container, then Cooper began cutting cords from the chute, and is tying parachute cord around his waste apparently in an attempt to secure the parachute container full of money around his waste'. She says 'he looks likes he's going to jump
soon...'. Scott accordingly reports on the radio ' ... looks like he's getting ready to leave...'

The only period of time when Cooper was not under observation is from 7:42pm to roughly ~8:11-8:16 when he bails.

Nobody reported seeing Cooper open chutes and give them a thorough inspection before 7:42. When Tina last saw Cooper at ~7:42 he had already put on a chute over an hour before, he spent time cutting cord and tying a chute container full of money around his waste, and the flight engineer then reports Cooper finishing getting the door open and the stairs down, Cooper trying the stairs (oscillation?), Cooper finally comes back to the area where the intercom is located and answers the intercom at ~8:05 saying everything is "OK", and the pressure bump occurs ~8:11-8:15 (reported by Rataczak after discussion
among the crew somewhere near the 8:16-8:20 period).

From 7:42 until Cooper he bails at ~8:11-8:16 Cooper appears to have been fully occupied and looking for an opportunity to jump. In the 8:05 period, for example, he wasn't even in the area of the intercom to answer it quickly. We also know from Rataczak and Anderson testimony that Cooper called front on the intercom one more time between 8:05-8:10 (not reported in the Transcripts) and asked them to "slow and stabilize the plane". There is no time or reason to be inspecting chutes, taking off and putting on chutes, etc etc after the 7:42 time mark!

That is the basic factual record supported by witness testimony, the Transcripts, and discussion/testimony in the thread to date.

 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 22, 2014, 07:24:11 PM
Your timeline is excellent, Georger.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 22, 2014, 07:45:25 PM
Excellent summary. I'll say it again, the time frame puts Cooper around a lot of water. it changes the odds of a water landing (pull/no pull) and speaks out about the money find.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on April 22, 2014, 10:58:15 PM
You are correct indeed!  Basically, considering the available information, Cooper probably landed as a no-pull within just a few feet of the Columbia River water.

The money location was about 10-14 feet above sea level based on some of the pictures of the agents digging.  And Ckret and others have suggested that it was protected in some manner until if was buried.  This would require a landing on solid ground for Cooper.

How high was the Columbia River surface on the night of the hijacking?  The surface was typically 5 to 7 feet above sea level with about a 1 to 2 foot daily variation due to tidal effects from the Pacific Ocean which was about 90 to 95 miles away.  And when did the river surface make it up to at least 10-14 feet?  That would have been the first time the money could have moved to Tina Bar.

Admittedly, the money could have moved downhill by water entering the Columbia but the highest land point in the Tina Bar area (between the river and the NW Lower River Road which was built on top of a levee) was only about 20 to 25 feet above sea level.

Maybe Georger has been able to get the 1971 to 1974 Columbia River water levels data from that obscure library in Montana or where ever it is located.

 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 29, 2014, 06:21:55 AM
The Man. The Myth. The Music Festival.

http://dbcoopermusicfestival.com/

DB Cooper's Bar & Grill

http://dbcoopersbar.com/
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 30, 2014, 07:11:08 PM
here is some nice pics of the intercom/phone/pa/cabin call for a 727  8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on May 01, 2014, 12:53:37 AM
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here is some nice pics of the intercom/phone/pa/cabin call for a 727  8)

Is this a speaker system or headset?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 02, 2014, 06:21:30 PM
I think it's only a headset. I don't see a speaker on it?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on May 02, 2014, 06:27:14 PM
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I think it's only a headset. I don't see a speaker on it?

Maybe a blinking light system? I don't see a speaker either but doesn't mean there weren't any. I wonder if the intercom feed was a speaker or earphones in the cockpit?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: hom on May 02, 2014, 06:31:40 PM
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here is some nice pics of the intercom/phone/pa/cabin call for a 727  8)
Is this a speaker system or headset?

No.   Also not "the...."  There were somewhat different versions over the years/airlines.  One version at least included a microphone.  This is a "flight attendant's panel" for the aft cabin flight attendant.  The handset could be used to talk to the cockpit or the fwd flight attendant, or to "address" the passengers.  The similar one for the fwd attendant did not have the aft entry and airstair lighting controls.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 02, 2014, 06:36:13 PM
here is the description off Ebay...'

used flight attendant's P.A. system from a  Boeing 727 aircraft; it includes a Telex model HS-500 handset (P/N 63274-004). It appears to be missing a knob & a couple indicator lights. It is marked with "65-23594-3 MOD" which I believe could be the part number of the unit.This particular PA came from an Ex-United Airlines 727-22 built in 1969, and was located in the rear cabin.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on May 02, 2014, 11:20:27 PM
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here is the description off Ebay...'

used flight attendant's P.A. system from a  Boeing 727 aircraft; it includes a Telex model HS-500 handset (P/N 63274-004). It appears to be missing a knob & a couple indicator lights. It is marked with "65-23594-3 MOD" which I believe could be the part number of the unit.This particular PA came from an Ex-United Airlines 727-22 built in 1969, and was located in the rear cabin.

So how did the crew in the cockpit 'hear' Cooper on the rear intercom - earphones or speaker or something
else, if anyone knows.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 02, 2014, 11:38:13 PM
My 727 has the PA & passenger address on the overhead panel. I'll take a guess that they are linked to there headset. checking on it now.

(http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/maBN80Z9QF1CWzC6EdB8MWg.jpg)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on May 03, 2014, 04:41:30 AM
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My 727 has the PA & passenger address on the overhead panel. I'll take a guess that they are linked to there headset. checking on it now.

(http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/maBN80Z9QF1CWzC6EdB8MWg.jpg)

Does show a Monitor Speaker OFF button. Im assuming that controls a speaker. Here's the rub. Cooper is alleged to have called forward during one radio exchange .... and was heard and recorded at the receiving end? True? People talk about it and wonder. Is there a recording of Cooper? If the cockpit crew was listening to the intercom via a speaker then I suppose a conversation with Cooper during a radio transmission ... could have recorded what was being overheard on the intercom (speaker)?

Much would depend on the quality of the radio microphone.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 03, 2014, 07:50:22 PM
This is from my flight manual (Continental Airlines)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 03, 2014, 08:04:15 PM
page 2
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on May 03, 2014, 11:19:56 PM
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page 2

Good! Give me a chance to digest - 377 is looking at manuals too. Thanks!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: hom on May 04, 2014, 03:11:17 AM
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So how did the crew in the cockpit 'hear' Cooper on the rear intercom - earphones or speaker or something
else, if anyone knows.

The crew in the cockpit could have heard Cooper talking on the interphone at the aft attendant's panel in either of two ways.  If someone in the cockpit was holding the handset to their ear, Cooper could have just picked up the handset at the aft panel and started talking.  If someone didn't already have the phone to their ear, he could have pushed the CAPTAIN button, which would send a signal to the cockpit to alert the crew that someone wanted to talk to them on the interphone.  I have nothing that says what that signal would be.  For calls going the other way, the signal is that the CAPTAIN button would light up.  I'm not sure if the CABIN ATTENDANT button on the overhead panel in the cockpit lights in the same way to indicate that someone in the cabin wants to talk.  (This button is used to light the CAPTAIN light at the flight attendant panels, and the cockpit crew can send a "chime" over the PA as a signal to get the attention of the flight attendants.)

The other way (most likely what was actually used) is this.  In the cockpit, an audio panel which allows selection of what comes into the headsets has a switch to set ON to allow interphone comms to be put into the headsets.  The switch would usually be in this position unless there were a lot of interphone comms that might be interfering with hearing radio comms.  If this switch was ON, all Cooper would have to do is pick up the interphone handset and talk.

The speaker that can be turned on in the cockpit is only for output from the passenger address.  It is the cockpit equivalent of all the speakers in the cabin.  The only way the Cooper comm could have gotten out on a radio circuit would be if that PA speaker in the cockpit was ON and Cooper used the PA at the aft attendant panel while the crew was talking on one of the radios.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on May 04, 2014, 03:22:22 AM
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So how did the crew in the cockpit 'hear' Cooper on the rear intercom - earphones or speaker or something
else, if anyone knows.

The crew in the cockpit could have heard Cooper talking on the interphone at the aft attendant's panel in either of two ways.  If someone in the cockpit was holding the handset to their ear, Cooper could have just picked up the handset at the aft panel and started talking.  If someone didn't already have the phone to their ear, he could have pushed the CAPTAIN button, which would send a signal to the cockpit to alert the crew that someone wanted to talk to them on the interphone.  I have nothing that says what that signal would be.  For calls going the other way, the signal is that the CAPTAIN button would light up.  I'm not sure if the CABIN ATTENDANT button on the overhead panel in the cockpit lights in the same way to indicate that someone in the cabin wants to talk.  (This button is used to light the CAPTAIN light at the flight attendant panels, and the cockpit crew can send a "chime" over the PA as a signal to get the attention of the flight attendants.)

The other way (most likely what was actually used) is this.  In the cockpit, an audio panel which allows selection of what comes into the headsets has a switch to set ON to allow interphone comms to be put into the headsets.  The switch would usually be in this position unless there were a lot of interphone comms that might be interfering with hearing radio comms.  If this switch was ON, all Cooper would have to do is pick up the interphone handset and talk.

The speaker that can be turned on in the cockpit is only for output from the passenger address.  It is the cockpit equivalent of all the speakers in the cabin.  The only way the Cooper comm could have gotten out on a radio circuit would be if that PA speaker in the cockpit was ON and Cooper used the PA at the aft attendant panel while the crew was talking on one of the radios.

OK, makes sense now. Thanks.

Title: Capabilities of the 727, test pilots, Boeing tests, etc.
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 06, 2014, 09:03:55 PM
Sail and I will be meeting on May 12 for lunch with Don Bennett, a retired Boeing test pilot to discuss the secret Boeing flight tests of the 727 in the late 1960s and other related tidbits of avionic interest.

377 is going bonkers with ideas and questions for us to ask, and I am happy to carry other queries from the general readership.

One special topic is roll-over maneuvers in Boeing products, such as this:

http://www.forbiddenknowledgetv.com/videos/art/romanian-dancing-girls-and-an-airplane.html

Since some of the women in the video clip are wearing large crosses on their outfits, I assume they are from a local convent.  Perhaps they are novitiates?

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 14, 2014, 10:58:51 PM
I'm going through my photo's, can anyone verify this photo giving Cooper an assigned seat, before he moved to the back?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on May 15, 2014, 12:46:17 AM
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Looking good!

Can we have a special category for bashing other members?  Or does Blevins need his own?   ;D ;D

Thanks. Mr. Blevins will be bashing himself after one post on here. it's sad that it had to come to this point, but we had no option. I'm sure he will be saying something soon via DZ. hopefully we can have actual discussions here without the insults. we have already had a lot of people sign in today. I hope we can make this work, and also exist elsewhere in the Cooper community. the forum is still in review with all the options to go through yet. lots of possibilities here.


I would also like to thank everyone for allowing this to happen. it's my pleasure, along with Bruce that this has made it to this point. speak out about any issues, any adjustments needed. like Frasier Crane always said, "I'm Listening"  8)

My only criticism trivial is I wish to get rid of the dark gray sections, to all light gray? It's just a preference. oh well...
 :D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 15, 2014, 12:53:01 AM
I mentioned it on 'the new forum" section I think. I had to re-install the theme, so I lost my settings on the colors. I have to go into the file and change out the grey. the problem is that I don't remember where the section was that I changed. it's a huge file I have to thumb thru to find. I was in and out today, so I hope I can figure it out tomorrow. I don't know if you noticed the photo gallery I installed. I'm loading it up. it can be found on the menu bar at the top. Home, help, search, etc. area  8)
Title: Report of luncheon with Boeing 727 test pilot, Don Bennett
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 15, 2014, 02:39:14 AM
Bruce's article can be seen in the following post.

Shutter modified this post.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 15, 2014, 02:40:30 AM
Since I can't read the dark background, I've re-posted.  Once we get the coloring straightened out, we can erase one of these copies. - BAS

***************************

Last Monday, Sail and I met at the Seattle Yacht Club with one of Sail's fellow yachties, Don Bennett.  Don is also a retired 727 "production" test pilot for Boeing and flew 727s extensively in the Cooper era.

Right off the bat we asked Don if he knew anything about the secret testing of the 727 as a jump platform in the late 1960s.

"I heard rumors about dropping the stairs in flight, but I was not involved in any secret testing," he told us. 

As a production test pilot, Don told us his primary responsibility was to test 727s as they came off the assembly line.

"The 7-2-7 was a lovely airplane," Don said.  "It was a hell of an airplane."

Don's love of this aircraft was still evident as he discussed the old days of test flying.

"The 7-2-7 was a very odd airplane, and the center of lift was ahead of the landing gear."  Don explained that this meant that the pilots had to land a bit differently than in other Boeing products, such as how Sail has described here in his post, namely that the pilots had to lower the nose a bit just before touch-down on the runway.

Don also used the typical parlance for Boeing employees and called this aircraft the Seven-Two-Seven, and not a Seven-Twenty-Seven, as is common elsewhere in Cooper Country, such as with journalists.

One tidbit that attracted my attention is Don's statement that not only could the 727 take off with the aft stairs deployed, the extended stair system also added lift to the take-off.

"It would act like a flap," Don said.

However, Sail reminded me later that deploying the stairs for take-off would also increase drag and thus be a hindrance.

Further, regarding the secret testing, both Don and Sail said that the operation would most likely have taken place away from the central Boeing facilities in the Seattle area and would have been conducted out of the way, such as in Moses Lake, Washington.

We also asked Don about Stan Gilliam, whose grand daughter had told us that her family had a long story about Stan receiving a very probing and mysterious phone call about the technical aspects of deploying the aft stairs in flight.  The woman, Jayme Nimick, says her grand father thought it might have been DB Cooper calling to get advanced knowledge about the jump. OF course, Sail thought the phone call originated from Sheridan Peterson in Building 9-101, but Don thought it was internal security from Boeing checking up on Stan and the 727 testing operation.

"It was the Boeing CIA," he said with a chuckle. 

This remark initiated a lengthy conversation about Boeing security and how it monitored its employees out of country.  Don had numerous occasions to train foreign flight crews in the operation of 727 and came in contact with lots of strange people, including a voluptuous Russian named "Natasha."

In the course of the conversation, Don also confirmed that he knew Stan Gilliam, and remembered he was a test flight engineer, and was also on some of these foreign test programs, which jived with what Jayme had told me.

Despite the espionage, babes in black, and hulking Russkies, both Don and Sail dismissed the sinister notion that the 727 was developed as a secret jump platform for American commando troops.

"It was just one more canny angle from the marketing department," Sail posited.

Along those lines, I asked Don is a 727 could be landed on an aircraft carrier and he agreed.  This feat, and it's role in the Boeing marketing strategy for selling the 727 to the military, was one of the few really interesting items delivered by the WSHM staff during their Symposium last November.

Don also told us that the 700 series of numbers were used by Boeing because when they developed the 707 - the world's first commercial jetliner - they didn't know what angle to set the wings.  Apparently the wing sweep is very critical in turns as the lift and drag factors on each wing vary greatly and the aircraft could become unstable very quickly.

"The story at Boeing was that the engineers went back to the Germans from WW II and their designs for their jet aircraft and found that 70.7 degrees was the optimal angle.  As a result, the plane was called the Seven - Zero - Seven.

Don also told us that the 707 was first developed in 1955 and Boeing sank $19 million dollars into its creation.

"The total worth of Boeing at that time was only $25 million, so Boeing had everything riding on this aircraft," Don said.

This discussion dove-tailed with my query from 377 as to the veracity of Tex Johnson rolling the first 707 prototype during a fly-over conducted in front of potential airline customers. Both Sail and Don agreed that it happened, but the disagreements over what happened next were hotly debated for the rest of the luncheon.  Don said that Tex was shipped off to some Boeing flight gulag as punishment, while Sail said that Tex eventually got a promotion and a raise.  Don countered and said that Tex lost his pilot's license of a spell, which was again countered by Sail.

In the course of this debate, Don told us that he respected Tex as a pilot but didn't like him as a person because he hit on his wife in front of him and a bunch of Boeing pilots.

"But Tex was a helluva pilot. One of the best," Don told us. "But I didn't like how he treated my wife...."

Surprisingly, the incident occurred after Don and some other pilots had just flown a B-17 bomber into Boeing Field, so this event places these characters in a historic moment in time.

Another surprising comment was that Don told us he was flying a C-141 out of McChord on a training mission when DB Cooper was flying south to Mexico.

"I listened to the transmission during the skyjacking for about an hour.  It was fascinating."

Don told us that he was instructed to vacate the area for several hours, and he flew west.  This jives with what Everett Johnson told us about flying into Seattle during the skyjacking and having to make an emergency landing at Paine Field in Everett, WA.

This places further skepticism on Captain Tom Bohan's account that he was four minutes behind 305 into PDX and that the cross winds were up to 80 knots as reported in Himmelsbach's book.

Lastly, Don flew the second 727 plane built and instructed a Piedmont crew in its operation.  However, the pilots insisted on taking off during a snow storm and several inches of snow blew off the top of the airplane and were sucked into the tail engine, causing it to malfunction.  Later models of the 727 then had the #2 engine mounted six inches high above the fuselage to prevent this problem, according to Don.

Don also told us that the first 727 built in production was a 727-100, identical to the one Cooper used.  However, this first plane was struck by a Cessna during its Piedmont crew training and was destroyed.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 15, 2014, 09:26:20 AM
Here is a little more info on Piedmont airlines. they owned n467us for several years in the late 70's
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: hom on May 16, 2014, 01:52:46 AM
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I'm going through my photo's, can anyone verify this photo giving Cooper an assigned seat, before he moved to the back?

I don't remember off hand whether or not it has ever been established that there was seat assignment.  For some reason, I think not.

For sure, though, the seat arrangement and the place indicated for where Coop sat is wrong.  The arrangement in this graphic has too many rows of seats.  21 where it should be 18.  Where he sat was in the row just forward of the lavatories.  The overall idea of where the entry and airstair and the stews' areas were is OK.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 16, 2014, 02:01:19 AM
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I'm going through my photo's, can anyone verify this photo giving Cooper an assigned seat, before he moved to the back?

I don't remember off hand whether or not it has ever been established that there was seat assignment.  For some reason, I think not.

For sure, though, the seat arrangement and the place indicated for where Coop sat is wrong.  The arrangement in this graphic has too many rows of seats.  21 where it should be 18.  Where he sat was in the row just forward of the lavatories.  The overall idea of where the entry and airstair and the stews' areas were is OK.


Thanks, I kinda had the feeling a lot was wrong...If you have any photo's to add that would be great. tags would be placed in your name.
for the photo gallery 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on May 16, 2014, 11:42:05 PM
Aren't these the seats Cooper sat in? Isnt this from the series of photos taken during the test flight, some of which show the open rear door, stairs extended, etc? Note there are three seats there.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 16, 2014, 11:45:35 PM
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Aren't these the seats Cooper sat in?

Yep, I thought I had that one in there. I only put one in the "evidence" section of a different angle.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on May 16, 2014, 11:46:22 PM
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Aren't these the seats Cooper sat in?

Yep, I thought I had that one in there. I only put one in the "evidence" section of a different angle.

I have the whole package of photos if you want them - will have to find the file...

Something strikes me as Im looking at that photo - the head rest towels! OMG!  A forensic goldmine! What happened to those towels? Did they go to Quantico?
 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 16, 2014, 11:50:03 PM
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Aren't these the seats Cooper sat in?

Yep, I thought I had that one in there. I only put one in the "evidence" section of a different angle.

I have the whole package of photos if you want them - will have to find the file...

Sure, I want to get as many as possible so we have them at a moments notice. any newspaper clips, plane, evidence, money etc. what ever we can use to document everything.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on May 16, 2014, 11:53:16 PM
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Aren't these the seats Cooper sat in?

Yep, I thought I had that one in there. I only put one in the "evidence" section of a different angle.



I have the whole package of photos if you want them - will have to find the file...

Sure, I want to get as many as possible so we have them at a moments notice. any newspaper clips, plane, evidence, money etc. what ever we can use to document everything.

OK, hopfully tomorrow. Also note those head rest towels! Were these collected and sent to Quantico? A forensic goldmine.

 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 16, 2014, 11:55:41 PM
No rush, I'm slowly building the gallery. they should of taken the towels. they removed the seats.....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on May 16, 2014, 11:56:41 PM
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No rush, I'm slowly building the gallery. they should of taken the towels. they removed the seats.....

I wonder if Tom knows? 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 17, 2014, 12:02:03 AM
I have that interview with Carr on here. I think he says something about the seats, and hair? I'll listen to it later. Tom would be a good source to ask.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 17, 2014, 03:17:10 AM
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Aren't these the seats Cooper sat in?

Yep, I thought I had that one in there. I only put one in the "evidence" section of a different angle.

I have the whole package of photos if you want them - will have to find the file...

Something strikes me as Im looking at that photo - the head rest towels! OMG!  A forensic goldmine! What happened to those towels? Did they go to Quantico?


I asked Ayn Dietrich and she dodged the question.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 17, 2014, 08:27:49 AM
I listened again to the interview with Larry Carr, and he said the seats were taken out and sent to Quantico. I'm wondering why they took the whole seat out. what kind of test could they do back then. how often did they change those head liners? unless there was a stain on the seat wouldn't you just use tape like they do with prints?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on May 17, 2014, 05:04:37 PM
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I listened again to the interview with Larry Carr, and he said the seats were taken out and sent to Quantico. I'm wondering why they took the whole seat out. what kind of test could they do back then. how often did they change those head liners? unless there was a stain on the seat wouldn't you just use tape like they do with prints?

Back in that period that would have gone over everything with UV light and tape, looked for prints, and do particle and fibre analysis. Many lab reports would follow.  They would still have that archive of evidence for further analysis.

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 17, 2014, 05:19:34 PM
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I listened again to the interview with Larry Carr, and he said the seats were taken out and sent to Quantico. I'm wondering why they took the whole seat out. what kind of test could they do back then. how often did they change those head liners? unless there was a stain on the seat wouldn't you just use tape like they do with prints?

Back in that period that would have gone over everything with UV light and tape, looked for prints, and do particle and fibre analysis. Many lab reports would follow.  They would still have that archive of evidence for further analysis.


I would guess a lot of cross contamination would occur since other's sat in the seat prior to Cooper?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on May 18, 2014, 12:01:32 AM
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I listened again to the interview with Larry Carr, and he said the seats were taken out and sent to Quantico. I'm wondering why they took the whole seat out. what kind of test could they do back then. how often did they change those head liners? unless there was a stain on the seat wouldn't you just use tape like they do with prints?

Back in that period that would have gone over everything with UV light and tape, looked for prints, and do particle and fibre analysis. Many lab reports would follow.  They would still have that archive of evidence for further analysis.


I would guess a lot of cross contamination would occur since other's sat in the seat prior to Cooper?

For sure but just think of the bag of "goodies" one gets to play with! Independent verification of metal particles Tom found? Just think of the possibilities ....

Somebody was smart to remove the seats completely and send the whole package to Quantico. That creates an archive for future work!
 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 18, 2014, 12:05:42 AM
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I listened again to the interview with Larry Carr, and he said the seats were taken out and sent to Quantico. I'm wondering why they took the whole seat out. what kind of test could they do back then. how often did they change those head liners? unless there was a stain on the seat wouldn't you just use tape like they do with prints?

Back in that period that would have gone over everything with UV light and tape, looked for prints, and do particle and fibre analysis. Many lab reports would follow.  They would still have that archive of evidence for further analysis.


I would guess a lot of cross contamination would occur since other's sat in the seat prior to Cooper?

For sure but just think of the bag of "goodies" one gets to play with! Independent verification of metal particles Tom found? Just think of the possibilities ....


all of the metal particles didn't come from the tie only?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on May 18, 2014, 12:10:06 AM
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I listened again to the interview with Larry Carr, and he said the seats were taken out and sent to Quantico. I'm wondering why they took the whole seat out. what kind of test could they do back then. how often did they change those head liners? unless there was a stain on the seat wouldn't you just use tape like they do with prints?

Back in that period that would have gone over everything with UV light and tape, looked for prints, and do particle and fibre analysis. Many lab reports would follow.  They would still have that archive of evidence for further analysis.


I would guess a lot of cross contamination would occur since other's sat in the seat prior to Cooper?

For sure but just think of the bag of "goodies" one gets to play with! Independent verification of metal particles Tom found? Just think of the possibilities ....


all of the metal particles didn't come from the tie only?

I think Tom's particles all came from the tie. Should check his site to confirm.

He left his tie ON the seat. Actually sort of in-between seats if I recall correctly. But he was up and down, bent over, sat is, moved around in, many motions in and around and over those seats not to mention contact with the seats and headrest towels. "The seat of the crime", as it were.

Cooper's leaving that tie is a paradox to me. Even in 1971 if he was technically savvy at all, wouldn't he know he was leaving personal evidence behind? Or be concerned he might be? Something about the tie has never set right with me
if he was technically savvy and the consummate planner many contend. Unless his destination was going to put him out of reach. Say Cuba?


Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 18, 2014, 12:20:14 AM
I read when the were scrapping 305, they asked if anyone wanted the seats, nobody did. the only thing I've seen was the wheel from the cockpit. the owner of the scrapyard took the registration plate. I think the rest is history. imagine if you kept the stairs? wonder what that would go for at auction?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on May 18, 2014, 12:24:26 AM
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I read when the were scrapping 305, they asked if anyone wanted the seats, nobody did. the only thing I've seen was the wheel from the cockpit. the owner of the scrapyard took the registration plate. I think the rest is history. imagine if you kept the stairs? wonder what that would go for at auction?

Those would have been different seats? Not the seats Cooper occupied.

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 18, 2014, 12:27:08 AM
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I read when the were scrapping 305, they asked if anyone wanted the seats, nobody did. the only thing I've seen was the wheel from the cockpit. the owner of the scrapyard took the registration plate. I think the rest is history. imagine if you kept the stairs? wonder what that would go for at auction?

Those would have been different seats? Not the seats Cooper occupied.

It all depends I guess on how much the plane was changed over the years. your probably right though.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 18, 2014, 09:55:43 PM
Interesting article.....

"Hot tips from crackpots

And then there were the funny ones — the tips called in by self-described psychics and paranormal investigators, and by straight-up nutters and swindlers. Himmelsbach remembers one who built a black box covered with dials and switches, which he claimed functioned as a sort of mechanical bloodhound (quite what the advantage was in a bloodhound with no legs and, as soon became obvious, a non-functioning nose, was never made clear). Another got Himmelsbach’s attention by claiming to be skilled in water-witching, but subsequently rang the loony bell good and loud by revealing that he did his water-witch dousing over a topo map on his coffee table before going out to a scene to dig."


http://www.offbeatoregon.com/1306c-db-cooper-part-3-the-hunt.html
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 25, 2014, 04:15:11 AM
A new use of titanium dioxide!

http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/05/20/ginormous-poem-can-eat-pollution-20-cars?cmpid=tpenviro-eml-2014-05-24-poem
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on June 07, 2014, 09:16:13 PM
Has anyone read this story before?

Augusto Lakandula: The Guy Who Hijacked Philippine Airlines And Escaped Using A Homemade Parachute.

A Filipino named Augusto Lakandula (later identified as Reginald Chua), hijacked a  Philippine Airlines jet on May 25, 2000. After collecting the passengers’ money and other valuables, the suspect, who appeared to be deranged, jumped at 6,000 feet from the plane’s rear door using a homemade parachute.

Did he survive his dramatic escape or mysteriously vanished like ‘D.B. Cooper’, the infamous skyjacker?

Read on to find out.

On May 25, 2000, Philippine Airlines Flight 812 was en route from Francisco Bangoy International Airport in Davao City to Ninoy Aquino International Airport in Manila, carrying a total of 278 passengers and 13 crew members on board.

A few moments after the plane took off, a man wearing a blue ski mask and swimming goggles declared hijacking. Apparently prepared to commit his crime, the man was also carrying ropes, a gun and a hand grenade.

During the incident, the man fired a shot into the aircraft bulkhead, forcing the pilots to let him into the cockpit. Carlos Neri, the plane’s co-pilot, described the hijacker as a deranged man who lamented that his family left him while his wife had an affair with a policeman.

The hijacker, first identified as “Augusto Lakandula” based on his plane ticket, demanded all passengers to place all their belongings in a bag. He also asked the pilot to have the plane diverted and return to Davao, but the pilot refused to do so due to insufficient fuel left.

Hijacking gone wrong

After his initial request was denied, the hijacker commanded the pilot to descend and depressurize the airplane so the door could be opened, allowing him to escape using a makeshift parachute.

Just before his dramatic exit, the hijacker asked the crew to show him how to jump using a nylon parachute he brought with him. Seeing that the parachute apparently had no rip cord, one of the pilots took a curtain sash and attached it to the homemade parachute.

The hijacker finally jumped at 6,000 feet from the plane’s left rear door while the aircraft was circling 13 miles from Manila. A flight attendant pushed him out of the door so he could escape against the strong force of the air. He reportedly separated from the parachute in midair and plunged to his death somewhere on a mountain in Real, Quezon.

(http://www.filipiknow.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Philippine-Aiirlines-Flight-812-hijacking.jpg)
With it’s rear door still opened, the plane finally landed at Ninoy
Aquino International Airport. All passengers and crew members
arrived safe

The body of Augusto Lakandula, later identified by his family members as Reginald Chua, was recovered about 40 miles east of Manila by local officials in Real, Quezon.

The hijacker’s body was nearly buried in mud and his belt bag containing cash and jewelry was reportedly missing. The remains of his homemade parachute was recovered about a kilometer away from where his body was found.

In an interview with the Radio Mindanao Network, Chua’s brother said that the hijacker actually had dreamed of becoming a skydiver and even collected books on skydiving. Unfortunately, he never had the chance to jump from an actual plane before the fateful event, which may explain why the hijacking ended up an epic failure.


Added:several things come to mind when reading this. I realize the guy was not firing on all cylinders, but I noticed everything came off him soon after he jumped. this is the second hijacking involving a parachute attempt where items came off. he obviously thought he had enough information by reading books. so, once again I believe Cooper may not of had the skill he thought he did, or the skill people believe he had.


Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on June 07, 2014, 11:57:48 PM
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Has anyone read this story before?

Augusto Lakandula: The Guy Who Hijacked Philippine Airlines And Escaped Using A Homemade Parachute.

A Filipino named Augusto Lakandula (later identified as Reginald Chua), hijacked a  Philippine Airlines jet on May 25, 2000. After collecting the passengers’ money and other valuables, the suspect, who appeared to be deranged, jumped at 6,000 feet from the plane’s rear door using a homemade parachute.

Did he survive his dramatic escape or mysteriously vanished like ‘D.B. Cooper’, the infamous skyjacker?

Read on to find out.

On May 25, 2000, Philippine Airlines Flight 812 was en route from Francisco Bangoy International Airport in Davao City to Ninoy Aquino International Airport in Manila, carrying a total of 278 passengers and 13 crew members on board.

A few moments after the plane took off, a man wearing a blue ski mask and swimming goggles declared hijacking. Apparently prepared to commit his crime, the man was also carrying ropes, a gun and a hand grenade.

During the incident, the man fired a shot into the aircraft bulkhead, forcing the pilots to let him into the cockpit. Carlos Neri, the plane’s co-pilot, described the hijacker as a deranged man who lamented that his family left him while his wife had an affair with a policeman.

The hijacker, first identified as “Augusto Lakandula” based on his plane ticket, demanded all passengers to place all their belongings in a bag. He also asked the pilot to have the plane diverted and return to Davao, but the pilot refused to do so due to insufficient fuel left.

Hijacking gone wrong

After his initial request was denied, the hijacker commanded the pilot to descend and depressurize the airplane so the door could be opened, allowing him to escape using a makeshift parachute.

Just before his dramatic exit, the hijacker asked the crew to show him how to jump using a nylon parachute he brought with him. Seeing that the parachute apparently had no rip cord, one of the pilots took a curtain sash and attached it to the homemade parachute.

The hijacker finally jumped at 6,000 feet from the plane’s left rear door while the aircraft was circling 13 miles from Manila. A flight attendant pushed him out of the door so he could escape against the strong force of the air. He reportedly separated from the parachute in midair and plunged to his death somewhere on a mountain in Real, Quezon.

(http://www.filipiknow.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Philippine-Aiirlines-Flight-812-hijacking.jpg)
With it’s rear door still opened, the plane finally landed at Ninoy
Aquino International Airport. All passengers and crew members
arrived safe

The body of Augusto Lakandula, later identified by his family members as Reginald Chua, was recovered about 40 miles east of Manila by local officials in Real, Quezon.

The hijacker’s body was nearly buried in mud and his belt bag containing cash and jewelry was reportedly missing. The remains of his homemade parachute was recovered about a kilometer away from where his body was found.

In an interview with the Radio Mindanao Network, Chua’s brother said that the hijacker actually had dreamed of becoming a skydiver and even collected books on skydiving. Unfortunately, he never had the chance to jump from an actual plane before the fateful event, which may explain why the hijacking ended up an epic failure.


Added:several things come to mind when reading this. I realize the guy was not firing on all cylinders, but I noticed everything came off him soon after he jumped. this is the second hijacking involving a parachute attempt where items came off. he obviously thought he had enough information by reading books. so, once again I believe Cooper may not of had the skill he thought he did, or the skill people believe he had.

I remember very well (beginning the very night of the hijacking): a number of people if not most thought what the
Washington hijacker had done was a 'stunt', ill-informed stunt. Maybe he had been a hippie trying to make a political point. Or an estranged Vietnam vet (recluse) 'trying to make a political point and get away with money'. Bailing out a jet no less! Over the wilderness of Washington, no less! Some nut! Definitely a nut but of what type and who! Except nobody was sure if the guy's corpse would ever be found - in the Washington wilderness!

Except Cooper's gear and his methods were far better than the Filipino's. Cooper may not have bailed over a wilderness area, unless you believe JT. And no manifesto or claims by some group and no certified letter or a body surfaced later. Nothing of record. And the FBI may be as confused as everyone else! ?     
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on June 08, 2014, 12:38:58 AM
True about Cooper's methods & gear, but we have two separate hijackings similar to Cooper's, and they both lost there gear. one lost his pants in the jump. if Cooper didn't have enough experience with this type of jump, along with properly securing the gear. it probably separated from him. we have money on a river bank, a close proximity to the jump area. this could also be proof the money separated, or was still attached to him for a period of time undiscovered. I know this is not anything new, but a trend is appearing in the background.

who was the guy who jumped and made it safely to the ground, not McCoy. the one Farf brought up?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on June 08, 2014, 04:00:03 PM
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True about Cooper's methods & gear, but we have two separate hijackings similar to Cooper's, and they both lost there gear. one lost his pants in the jump. if Cooper didn't have enough experience with this type of jump, along with properly securing the gear. it probably separated from him. we have money on a river bank, a close proximity to the jump area. this could also be proof the money separated, or was still attached to him for a period of time undiscovered. I know this is not anything new, but a trend is appearing in the background.

who was the guy who jumped and made it safely to the ground, not McCoy. the one Farf brought up?

When did the money arrive on Tena Bar? '79, '74, earlier?  Palmer thought 1979. Kaye says Palmer got his strata wrong and the money was eroding out of earlier strata, but how much earlier? Tom says the money location is far removed from any 1974 dredge spoils, so strata earlier than 1974? No lab work to resolve any of this. Except if anything is true about Tena Bar, it's a highly volatile place with a very high erosion rate (constantly under replenishment by the Corps of Engineers, as photos of the place 1950-1980-cccc show). Strangely, Palmer does not say one word about EROSION at Tena Bar, a fact you would think would dominate in the discussion of strata. Tom raises some very important questions visi-a-vis Palmer. Lastly, the money is found near the surface just months after the worst drought in years followed by excessive rains and some flooding/high water so is it deposition or erosion from eroding subsurface strata? Found way down the beachfront in an obscure area just below the rise at the high point on the beach nestled or flanked by bushes and trees close by; not at the entry point to the beach up closer to water between Tena Bar and Catapillar island. It must have been a nightmare scenario for anyone looking for a simple solution!    (photo credit - Tom Kaye)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on June 08, 2014, 05:04:02 PM
with erosion deposits move. why would the money stay in it's original location? obviously the erosion is moving towards the waterline correct? how can anyone be certain the location was it's original resting place?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on June 08, 2014, 05:48:02 PM
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with erosion deposits move. why would the money stay in it's original location? obviously the erosion is moving towards the waterline correct? how can anyone be certain the location was it's original resting place?

Correct. Gravity and Water flow (pressure). Those are the two primary forces in play. But, are they the sole cause or just forces working on a third fact which isn't apparent? The location is consistent with a flow event, ie. movement. The condition of the money is consistent with long term flow erosion. Robt99 thinks he sees force impact on the bills from a direction. Are there pieces of serial numbers from other bills stuck to the outside of the top and bottom found bills which proves there was other money present in addition to the found bills? Did anyone bother to look for that? Ingram and others say they think other surface fragments found were simply decayed parts off the top of the Ingram bundles - did any of those fragments show parts of extra serial numbers? Tom and Carol says there is no evidence of 'fragments' found; just tiny pieces/grains in a plastic box! Fragments found at three feet? It's almost like reading tea leaves found in the County dump and trying to figure out where and who they came from!     
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on June 08, 2014, 06:10:52 PM
I guess anything is possible. you would think if Cooper was a no pull, and the money stayed with him, or separated it would surely distort the bundles when it hit the surface. they could of stayed in this form for several years locking them into place. or the last known violent shift it had. it's enough to drive ya bonkers that's for sure......
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on June 08, 2014, 08:18:53 PM
                                A photo from Farf some time back on DZ.....

(http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/farf_zps414e8df0.jpg)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on June 08, 2014, 08:35:39 PM
Ebay has a 28 page timetable starting June 1, 1971.....$13.99

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Northwest-Orient-Airlines-system-timetable-6-1-71-306-4-/221438962790?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item338eca6c66
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on June 09, 2014, 12:31:44 AM
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Ebay has a 28 page timetable starting June 1, 1971.....$13.99

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Northwest-Orient-Airlines-system-timetable-6-1-71-306-4-/221438962790?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item338eca6c66

The late afternoon Portland to Seattle flight was a recent addition to NWA's schedule starting in August of 1971. Prior to that the flight didn't exist. Snowmman confirmed this and was able to find old schedules which showed the change.
 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on June 28, 2014, 06:00:02 PM
? anyone?

https://ia601209.us.archive.org/21/items/InterviewWithBrianChirilla/BrianChurilla.mp3

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on June 29, 2014, 12:18:16 AM
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? anyone?

https://ia601209.us.archive.org/21/items/InterviewWithBrianChirilla/BrianChurilla.mp3

Ive heard the name Forest Grubbs before but can't place it in this context.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on June 29, 2014, 12:30:21 AM
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? anyone?

https://ia601209.us.archive.org/21/items/InterviewWithBrianChirilla/BrianChurilla.mp3

Ive heard the name Forest Grubbs before but can't place it in this context.


He goes pretty far out on a limb talking about cover ups in the case...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on July 04, 2014, 12:11:43 AM
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? anyone?

https://ia601209.us.archive.org/21/items/InterviewWithBrianChirilla/BrianChurilla.mp3

He is among the conspiracy theorists.

Ive heard the name Forest Grubbs before but can't place it in this context.


He goes pretty far out on a limb talking about cover ups in the case...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 15, 2014, 05:58:04 PM
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True about Cooper's methods & gear, but we have two separate hijackings similar to Cooper's, and they both lost there gear. one lost his pants in the jump. if Cooper didn't have enough experience with this type of jump, along with properly securing the gear. it probably separated from him. we have money on a river bank, a close proximity to the jump area. this could also be proof the money separated, or was still attached to him for a period of time undiscovered. I know this is not anything new, but a trend is appearing in the background.

who was the guy who jumped and made it safely to the ground, not McCoy. the one Farf brought up?


Copy cats who made it safely to the ground:

1. Robb Heady, with money (200K less 20K or so)
2. Richard McCoy, with money (500K)
3. Richard LaPoint, lost money north of Denver - in the winter
4. Martin McNally (?) - The kid over Peru, Indiana, lost his money, had no skydiving training whatsoever
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on July 19, 2014, 10:56:05 AM
Bruce:  It is interesting that both Sheridan Peterson and Earl Cossey claimed that Cooper did not know what he was doing and overlooked what Cooper did right. Checking the parachute packing card (and being able to find it) was the action of an experienced skydiver as was his through knowledge of the 727 aft airstairs and how to fly the plane "dirty" so that jump speed would be as slow as possible. Sheridan in an interview mentioned that Cooper would have frozen (dressed as he was) and we know that the exposure time was less than 4 minutes and hardly time to freeze before landing the jump. Both Sheridan and Earl could very well have been partners in the NORJAK caper and that could explain their false information they were both giving the FBI. When I had been talking to Cossey on the telephone and a lunch date had been set-up, I asked Cossey if he knew Sheridan and he turned cold and wanted nothing more to do with me. Cossey had to know Sheridan as they both used the Issaquah jump club and would have spent time together while their students were jumping there. Sheridan had brought the Boeing Skydiving Club there for jumps and Cossey would have been the packer for their chutes.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on July 19, 2014, 12:00:57 PM
Sailshaw, there are some problems with your post.  First, knowing where to find the packing card on an NB-6 or any other emergency parachute only proves that Cooper had some experience "pre-flighting" emergency parachutes.  It does not mean that Cooper was a skydiver or that he had ever made a parachute jump.

The rear cabin of the airliner was unheated and cold from the time the stairs were initially lowered.  The wind chill factor at the bottom of the stairs would have been about 35 degrees below zero and Cooper would have been "freeze dried" fast if he lingered on those bottom steps.  If he did a free fall to a lower altitude, the wind chill factor during the free fall would also be well below zero.  The ambient temperature was around freezing if he was under an open parachute.  This exposure to such cold temperatures, even for a couple of minutes, is definitely disabling.

Cossey may well have packed the emergency reserves for skydivers at the Issaquah jump club, but the skydivers themselves probably packed their jump chutes.  This was all very legal then and I understand that is still the way things operate.

Robert99
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on July 19, 2014, 10:54:47 PM
Robert99   Your post about what I said is all rubbish and undeserving of a intelligent response. I have reviewed the exposure "freeze" question with 377 who is not only a skydiver but an engineer/lawyer. He agrees that Cooper did not have time enough to freeze before he was on the ground. The temperature inside the 727 was not as you describe as the planes air conditioning equipment could have handled a slightly open aftairstair and not have done as you described. You are falling for the same arguments the FBI did and is all part of why the case is still unsolved.
Bob  Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on July 20, 2014, 12:19:42 AM
Sailshaw, I am still looking for that "intelligent response" you alluded to.  Surely you understand that the "planes air conditioning equipment" would add to the cold problem if it was actually being used.  I'll bet they were using the plane's heating system.  And it wouldn't be able to keep the rear cabin from becoming quite cold when the stairs were open.

I did not say that Cooper would be frozen solid.  But he was not dressed for the cold even if he had a pair of long johns on.  The cold would definitely have gotten to him.

I have been in cockpits where the actual temperature was about 65 or 70 degrees below zero (the needle was completely off the scale and looked liked it had hit a stop of some kind) and I have an immense respect for cold temperatures.  On that flight, I was dressed as well as I could have been and the cold was still brutal.

The only reason the Cooper case is still unsolved is because Cooper's body has not been found.

Robert99
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on July 20, 2014, 04:23:23 AM
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Sailshaw, I am still looking for that "intelligent response" you alluded to.  Surely you understand that the "planes air conditioning equipment" would add to the cold problem if it was actually being used.  I'll bet they were using the plane's heating system.  And it wouldn't be able to keep the rear cabin from becoming quite cold when the stairs were open.

I did not say that Cooper would be frozen solid.  But he was not dressed for the cold even if he had a pair of long johns on.  The cold would definitely have gotten to him.

I have been in cockpits where the actual temperature was about 65 or 70 degrees below zero (the needle was completely off the scale and looked liked it had hit a stop of some kind) and I have an immense respect for cold temperatures.  On that flight, I was dressed as well as I could have been and the cold was still brutal.

The only reason the Cooper case is still unsolved is because Cooper's body has not been found.

Robert99

What was the temperature in the back, stairwell, and on the stairs during the test flight? Did the test flight repeat
the same conditions as for flight 305 during the drop time period?
 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on July 20, 2014, 12:08:00 PM
R99   You still don't get it. You say " "planes air conditioning equipment would add to the cold problem if it was actually being used." This look like you don't understand that the 727 air conditioning packs provide both hot and cold air mixed for the comfort of the passenger. Again you just don't know what you are talking about and your negative comments do not add to the conversation.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: hom on July 20, 2014, 06:48:01 PM
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What was the temperature in the back, stairwell, and on the stairs during the test flight? Did the test flight repeat
the same conditions as for flight 305 during the drop time period?

I haven't seen anything exact re. the temp during the test flight.  The USAF guys did wear heavy jackets.  Saiz was comfy in his jump suit in the cabin and down on the stair.  The temp would have been close to what it was at 8pm on hijack night (because the mid-day temp when they did the tests was virtually the same as the 8pm temp around Vancouver on hijack night).  I'll ask next time I talk to Wally.

It got colder when the flight got down to southern Oregon.  Even with it colder outside, the temp indicated for the cabin (not cockpit) was 60 deg. F.  Hardly cold for a person with any clothes on.  I don't know where in the cabin the sensor was located.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 20, 2014, 10:24:24 PM
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What was the temperature in the back, stairwell, and on the stairs during the test flight? Did the test flight repeat
the same conditions as for flight 305 during the drop time period?

I haven't seen anything exact re. the temp during the test flight.  The USAF guys did wear heavy jackets.  Saiz was comfy in his jump suit in the cabin and down on the stair.  The temp would have been close to what it was at 8pm on hijack night (because the mid-day temp when they did the tests was virtually the same as the 8pm temp around Vancouver on hijack night).  I'll ask next time I talk to Wally.

It got colder when the flight got down to southern Oregon.  Even with it colder outside, the temp indicated for the cabin (not cockpit) was 60 deg. F.  Hardly cold for a person with any clothes on.  I don't know where in the cabin the sensor was located.


Here is what I know of temps during the jump process.

First, the "wind chill factor" on the stairs is way overstated, here and elsewhere. Numerous skydivers have stated that there is little to no wind on the stairs due to the nature of the slip stream. Hence, there is no wind chill factor to factor. In fact, one poster on the DZ said that when they jumped from a  727 there was a Styrofoam cup half-filled with coffee at the stairway entrance and it didn't move during the jump sequence as there was no air movement to blow it anywhere.

Most skydivers that I have talked with who have jumped from a jet, either a 727 or a DC 9, talk about the calm for a "few moments" once they leave the plane, and then a big wallop as they hit the slipstream.

What most folks talk about is the noise from the engine.

Empirical evidence :

1. Robb Heady jumped June 2, 1972 from 12,000 feet over the Sierras and he said it was "chilly" but not unduly cold.  He was dressed much like Cooper.  Heady was wearing jeans, a shirt, a vest and a windbreaker. He reported no problem with the conditions, temps or otherwise, even though he estimated that the 727 was traveling at least 300 mph and was probably closer to 350 mph when he exited. He did say that when he hit the slipstream it really kicked his ass and he tumbled for an estimated 15 seconds until he was able to control his descent.

2. Richard Lapoint jumped in mid-January, 1972 wearing only slacks and a shirt.  He made it to the ground successfully - wearing his cowboy boots - and landed in the snow. He seemed unaffected by the weather and the wintry conditions.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on July 20, 2014, 10:34:09 PM
Here is a report on Headly. this one didn't give the speed though....

Date: June 2, 1972

Flight Info: United Airlines Fight 239 from Reno to San Francisco.

The Story: A former Army paratrooper who was taking classes at Western Nevada Community College, the 22-year-old Heady barged onto the Boeing 727 as it prepared for takeoff. Armed with a .357 Magnum revolver and carrying his own parachute, he demanded a $200,000 ransom. Since the local banks were closed for the day, United had to borrow the money from two casinos. Heady collected the ransom on the airport tarmac while holding two flight attendants at gunpoint beneath a blanket flung over their heads; this tactic frustrated an FBI sniper, who was unable to identify Heady and thus held his fire. Once he had the cash, Heady ordered the plane to take off, but engine trouble prevented its departure. Undaunted, Heady asked for and received a second Boeing 727 from United. As this jet soared over Washoe Lake, Heady jumped from the rear door, clutching a canvas bag containing $155,000. (He left $45,000 behind, perhaps because it made the bag too heavy.) He dropped the money on the way down and suffered wounds to his elbow and chest upon landing. He was then arrested when he returned to his car at 5:30 a.m. the next morning; the FBI had wisely staked out the car, which was parked near the lake, because it had a “Member of the U.S. Parachute Association” bumper sticker.

Wonder why he thought it would be to heavy?

Snowmman wrote...
Slim, blond-haired. Held gun to head of stew. Used two hostages as shields when moving between planes. Pilot didn't know he had jumped till stewardess told him. (I guess she saw?)

It looks like 3 out 4 lost the money Bruce.....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 20, 2014, 10:49:26 PM
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Bruce:  It is interesting that both Sheridan Peterson and Earl Cossey claimed that Cooper did not know what he was doing and overlooked what Cooper did right. Checking the parachute packing card (and being able to find it) was the action of an experienced skydiver as was his through knowledge of the 727 aft airstairs and how to fly the plane "dirty" so that jump speed would be as slow as possible. Sheridan in an interview mentioned that Cooper would have frozen (dressed as he was) and we know that the exposure time was less than 4 minutes and hardly time to freeze before landing the jump. Both Sheridan and Earl could very well have been partners in the NORJAK caper and that could explain their false information they were both giving the FBI. When I had been talking to Cossey on the telephone and a lunch date had been set-up, I asked Cossey if he knew Sheridan and he turned cold and wanted nothing more to do with me. Cossey had to know Sheridan as they both used the Issaquah jump club and would have spent time together while their students were jumping there. Sheridan had brought the Boeing Skydiving Club there for jumps and Cossey would have been the packer for their chutes.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com


Yes, Sail, when I read what Petey's view of the skyjacking was, it sounded word-for-word like Cossey.  It was as if Petey and Coss read from the same script.  Uncanny.

But where did they get the script?  Who wrote the script?  Coss?  Petey?  Mr. X?

Or are they bullshitting in the same way?  Co-incidence?  Hard to believe.

Did Coss and Petey know each other? Seems like they did, and collaborated in some fashion.

Why?  Petey did the jump and Cossey helped set it up?  Hmmm?  That's hard to believe, too, but possible.  Petey sure gets himself into very interesting scenarios.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 20, 2014, 11:06:30 PM
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Here is a report on Headly. this one didn't give the speed though....

Date: June 2, 1972

Flight Info: United Airlines Fight 239 from Reno to San Francisco.

The Story: A former Army paratrooper who was taking classes at Western Nevada Community College, the 22-year-old Heady barged onto the Boeing 727 as it prepared for takeoff. Armed with a .357 Magnum revolver and carrying his own parachute, he demanded a $200,000 ransom. Since the local banks were closed for the day, United had to borrow the money from two casinos. Heady collected the ransom on the airport tarmac while holding two flight attendants at gunpoint beneath a blanket flung over their heads; this tactic frustrated an FBI sniper, who was unable to identify Heady and thus held his fire. Once he had the cash, Heady ordered the plane to take off, but engine trouble prevented its departure. Undaunted, Heady asked for and received a second Boeing 727 from United. As this jet soared over Washoe Lake, Heady jumped from the rear door, clutching a canvas bag containing $155,000. (He left $45,000 behind, perhaps because it made the bag too heavy.) He dropped the money on the way down and suffered wounds to his elbow and chest upon landing. He was then arrested when he returned to his car at 5:30 a.m. the next morning; the FBI had wisely staked out the car, which was parked near the lake, because it had a “Member of the U.S. Parachute Association” bumper sticker.

Wonder why he thought it would be to heavy?

Snowmman wrote...
Slim, blond-haired. Held gun to head of stew. Used two hostages as shields when moving between planes. Pilot didn't know he had jumped till stewardess told him. (I guess she saw?)

It looks like 3 out 4 lost the money Bruce.....


Robb told me that he didn't lose the money on the way down. Rather, that was what he told the cops.

Here is what Robb told me:  He stuffed about $180,000 stuffed into his vest pockets, and he couldn't fit the last 20K, so he slipped it into the stew's purse.  As far as anyone knows, she took it, unless she gave it back and that detail was never released.

When Robb hit the ground he landed awkwardly and banged his elbow and a hip. He was using a reserve and thus was arched backwards as he descended.  He pulled at 1,000 feet and had only 5 seconds to prepare for impact. He was surprised that he hit the tarmac of a local highway, so he tumbled backwards when he landed. Thus, he was hobbled. Plus, he was far from his car, as the pilots didn't follow his inflight instructions precisely. So, he knew he was trapped in the Washoe Valley.  Hence, he buried the money.  Robb later told his attorney where the money was buried, and used it as leverage with the court.  Eventually, 155,000K was delivered to the cops in exchange for a lighter sentence.

The cops never corrected the public story.  I suspect they liked it better that way.  Further, 377 thinks that the attorney pocketed the difference between the 180K and 155K.  Robb doesn't know, and at this point doesn't really care as he is satisfied with how things turned out for himself.

So, in actuality it's 2 out of 4 for Getting Away With It. Or rather, Getting to the Ground With It. (Robb and McCoy)

Yes, Lapoint and McNally didn't make it to the ground with their dough. No word on where that dough is...............
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on July 20, 2014, 11:09:22 PM
did he give any info as to how he jumped?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 21, 2014, 12:07:58 AM
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did he give any info as to how he jumped?


Heady?  Yup.  Robb said he had a 26' reserve under his windbreaker and no one ever saw it.  However, he told the stew that he wanted the aft stair door opened, so he figured they knew he was going to jump.  He jumped 10-15 minutes after take-off. He borrowed the 357 from a friend. He gave the pilots radio frequencies to follow, as I recall, which were standard heading to SFO from Reno. Little did he know that as he was inbound to SFO Western 401 was taking off, bound for Algeria with its own hijackers aboard.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on July 21, 2014, 05:31:51 PM
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did he give any info as to how he jumped?


Heady?  Yup.  Robb said he had a 26' reserve under his windbreaker and no one ever saw it.  However, he told the stew that he wanted the aft stair door opened, so he figured they knew he was going to jump.  He jumped 10-15 minutes after take-off. He borrowed the 357 from a friend. He gave the pilots radio frequencies to follow, as I recall, which were standard heading to SFO from Reno. Little did he know that as he was inbound to SFO Western 401 was taking off, bound for Algeria with its own hijackers aboard.


Interesting, you wouldn't happen to know why he jumped early do you? many say that was Cooper's intentions.

LaPoint has some interesting facts as well. he was wearing boots with a side zipper on it. isn't that the type Jo says Cooper was wearing? he sprained his ankle wearing them. he jumped from 12,000 feet wearing slacks and a shirt, similar to Cooper. it's quoted that "He was about froze to death." were the temps similar as Cooper's? I haven't checked yet.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on July 21, 2014, 09:27:13 PM
Bruce:  You say :"Why?  Petey did the jump and Cossey helped set it up?  Hmmm?  That's hard to believe, too, but possible.  Petey sure gets himself into very interesting scenarios."
I say : Peyey (Sharidan) was the leader of the partnership and had been planning the skyjacking for more than ten years. Cossey on the otherhand would have been involved in the partnership for less time and had a lesser part to play as the ""Ground Man" and later the launderer and "investor" of the loot. That left Petey free to fly around and write the four letters to the newspapers without any loot to be found on him. I believe the investment ran dry after forty years and a big discussion/fight took place in Cossey's garage. I think Petey took some blows but Cossey was hit in the back of his head as he walked back into the house. Did the case turn from hyjacking to a murder case? Stranger than fiction as they say.
Bob Saillshaw
sailshaw@gmail.com
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on July 23, 2014, 12:20:04 AM
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Bruce:  You say :"Why?  Petey did the jump and Cossey helped set it up?  Hmmm?  That's hard to believe, too, but possible.  Petey sure gets himself into very interesting scenarios."
I say : Peyey (Sharidan) was the leader of the partnership and had been planning the skyjacking for more than ten years. Cossey on the otherhand would have been involved in the partnership for less time and had a lesser part to play as the ""Ground Man" and later the launderer and "investor" of the loot. That left Petey free to fly around and write the four letters to the newspapers without any loot to be found on him. I believe the investment ran dry after forty years and a big discussion/fight took place in Cossey's garage. I think Petey took some blows but Cossey was hit in the back of his head as he walked back into the house. Did the case turn from hyjacking to a murder case? Stranger than fiction as they say.
Bob Saillshaw
sailshaw@gmail.com

wow! Beats anything RMB has come up with! (laugh)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 23, 2014, 08:57:27 AM
This was posted August 22, 2014 on the FBI's You Tube channel. people believing prints are mismatched or misidentified needs to watch this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtqKLsusLXE#t=164
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 02, 2014, 12:41:11 AM
Here is a letter from George Harrison explaining the chutes. he mentions Norm Hayden in this letter. the document is from WSHS PDF that can be found on this forum. it's on the thread titled "Transcripts From Flight 305"
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on September 02, 2014, 03:03:08 AM
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Here is a letter from George Harrison explaining the chutes. he mentions Norm Hayden in this letter. the document is from WSHS PDF that can be found on this forum. it's on the thread titled "Transcripts From Flight 305"

This is interesting: quote, "Our copy of the radio log was taken by Mr (Agent) Milnes, but he will return it ... after the FBI has copied it..."

Which radio log?

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on September 02, 2014, 11:15:20 AM
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Here is a letter from George Harrison explaining the chutes. he mentions Norm Hayden in this letter. the document is from WSHS PDF that can be found on this forum. it's on the thread titled "Transcripts From Flight 305"

This is interesting: quote, "Our copy of the radio log was taken by Mr (Agent) Milnes, but he will return it ... after the FBI has copied it..."

Which radio log?

This is probably a reference to an NWA radio log and not the Air Traffic Control radio logs which would come from the FAA.  It may be a reference to a log of the communications through ARINC, both teletype and phone patch, that NWA had made.  If such is the case, it is probably already in the George Harrison papers at WSHM with the word "log" being used rather loosely.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on September 02, 2014, 12:27:39 PM
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Here is a letter from George Harrison explaining the chutes. he mentions Norm Hayden in this letter. the document is from WSHS PDF that can be found on this forum. it's on the thread titled "Transcripts From Flight 305"

This is interesting: quote, "Our copy of the radio log was taken by Mr (Agent) Milnes, but he will return it ... after the FBI has copied it..."

Which radio log?

This is probably a reference to an NWA radio log and not the Air Traffic Control radio logs which would come from the FAA.  It may be a reference to a log of the communications through ARINC, both teletype and phone patch, that NWA had made.  If such is the case, it is probably already in the George Harrison papers at WSHM with the word "log" being used rather loosely.

Wouldn't it be good to have this?

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on September 02, 2014, 01:28:43 PM
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Here is a letter from George Harrison explaining the chutes. he mentions Norm Hayden in this letter. the document is from WSHS PDF that can be found on this forum. it's on the thread titled "Transcripts From Flight 305"

This is interesting: quote, "Our copy of the radio log was taken by Mr (Agent) Milnes, but he will return it ... after the FBI has copied it..."

Which radio log?

This is probably a reference to an NWA radio log and not the Air Traffic Control radio logs which would come from the FAA.  It may be a reference to a log of the communications through ARINC, both teletype and phone patch, that NWA had made.  If such is the case, it is probably already in the George Harrison papers at WSHM with the word "log" being used rather loosely.

Wouldn't it be good to have this?

It could be a reference to the large roll of teletypewriter paper that WSHM had on loan from the Harrison family for a period of time.  That roll of paper has been returned to the family per the loan agreement.

Georger, check your PMs on this subject later today.  I need to run some errands and it will be several hours before I have a chance to fill in some more details on this.

Robert99
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 02, 2014, 05:12:07 PM
The whole thing can be found here among other important issue's..

http://collections.washingtonhistory.org/details.aspx?id=123591
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: KidCooper on September 03, 2014, 03:12:10 AM
Has anyone ever heard any mention of investigation by authorities or public sleuths, etc. into JC Penny receipts regarding the clip on tie?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: 18C on September 03, 2014, 03:22:47 AM
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Has anyone ever heard any mention of investigation by authorities or public sleuths, etc. into JC Penny receipts regarding the clip on tie?

From memory it was not only a common tie, but one that had been sold at most - perhaps all - J.C. Penny stores?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on September 03, 2014, 04:32:12 PM
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Has anyone ever heard any mention of investigation by authorities or public sleuths, etc. into JC Penny receipts regarding the clip on tie?

From memory it was not only a common tie, but one that had been sold at most - perhaps all - J.C. Penny stores?

See this under TIE:

http://www.citizensleuths.com/
Title: Re: Seating
Post by: georger on September 03, 2014, 04:40:03 PM
Ive tried to post this four times without success - keep getting error messages@!

Here's what I think is a correct seating chart. Where Cooper/Mucklow etal sat is up to you!

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 03, 2014, 05:39:07 PM
I think it was the width that was probably giving you trouble. even though the fie size was small, it can only handle so much in width. nice photo. I remember saying something to Farf about Tina sitting in 18c. he didn't think she would do that. it's only 18 inches wide (The isle) I'm assuming after she got comfortable with him she might have moved to 18 d?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 03, 2014, 05:45:24 PM
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Has anyone ever heard any mention of investigation by authorities or public sleuths, etc. into JC Penny receipts regarding the clip on tie?

From memory it was not only a common tie, but one that had been sold at most - perhaps all - J.C. Penny stores?

I looked for the tie, but couldn't find one. I bought one at Walmart, and the tie clip on Ebay. I also have a pilot's uniform. I put that on with my tie when Vicki and Mark came to see me  ;D :D 8)

.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: 18C on September 03, 2014, 07:02:46 PM
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Has anyone ever heard any mention of investigation by authorities or public sleuths, etc. into JC Penny receipts regarding the clip on tie?

From memory it was not only a common tie, but one that had been sold at most - perhaps all - J.C. Penny stores?

I looked for the tie, but couldn't find one. I bought one at Walmart, and the tie clip on Ebay. I also have a pilot's uniform. I put that on with my tie when Vicki and Mark came to see me  ;D :D 8)


Take a selfy picture of you wearing the tie and clip, and slip it behind another photo in your photo album  ;D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: 18C on September 03, 2014, 07:05:11 PM
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Has anyone ever heard any mention of investigation by authorities or public sleuths, etc. into JC Penny receipts regarding the clip on tie?

From Georger's post and c/o citizensleuths website :

FBI Transcript, JC Penney's manager: "He stated that it has been at least a year, and probably a year and a half, since that store handled the narrow type. He advised that these ties are not a dress-type tie but usually worn by working people."
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on September 03, 2014, 10:44:31 PM
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Has anyone ever heard any mention of investigation by authorities or public sleuths, etc. into JC Penny receipts regarding the clip on tie?

From Georger's post and c/o citizensleuths website :

FBI Transcript, JC Penney's manager: "He stated that it has been at least a year, and probably a year and a half, since that store handled the narrow type. He advised that these ties are not a dress-type tie but usually worn by working people."

I took a few pictures during the exhibit at the Washington State History Museum's "Cooper" exhibit. I did get a few of the tie. They did not get the actual tie to display. However, this is the brand and type of clip on tie that Cooper was wearing.  I would have tried to get a few more, but flash photography was not allowed and they caught me.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 03, 2014, 10:56:22 PM
I didn't put much effort into looking for that tie, but I wonder where they got it from....Ebay had some, but none were black.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: KidCooper on September 05, 2014, 02:05:44 AM
All good insights into the tie. I'm curious if any investigation was done into exploring JC Pennys receipts; i.e. tracking down receipts that show a sale of that type of tie. Customers who paid with a credit card would have their name or account number on the receipt. So, perhaps DB Coopers real name was on a JC penny receipt somewhere in whatever archives JC Penny held for receipts at one time. Not sure if JC penny took visa or MasterCard by 1970 (according to that JC penny manager the tie must have been purchased the year before the hijacking) but JC penny was using their own JC Penny credit cards for about a decade prior. Who knows if Cooper used a credit card to buy the tie but it seems plausible that the FBI may have asked to do a search through their receipts at least at JC Penny's in the area - the idea being for the purposes of cross referencing potential suspects with a list of names of people that purchased the tie. So, anybody ever hear that they asked JC Penny for access to their receipts?

Further, probably a big dead end waiting to crop up but what if JC Penny still had receipts going back that far in storage archives. I don't know enough about retail business to know if it is at all feasible to think they might still have receipts from that long ago but I bet someone does have a better idea of that feasibility.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: 18C on September 05, 2014, 05:41:06 AM
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All good insights into the tie. I'm curious if any investigation was done into exploring JC Pennys receipts; i.e. tracking down receipts that show a sale of that type of tie. Customers who paid with a credit card would have their name or account number on the receipt. So, perhaps DB Coopers real name was on a JC penny receipt somewhere in whatever archives JC Penny held for receipts at one time. Not sure if JC penny took visa or MasterCard by 1970 (according to that JC penny manager the tie must have been purchased the year before the hijacking) but JC penny was using their own JC Penny credit cards for about a decade prior. Who knows if Cooper used a credit card to buy the tie but it seems plausible that the FBI may have asked to do a search through their receipts at least at JC Penny's in the area - the idea being for the purposes of cross referencing potential suspects with a list of names of people that purchased the tie. So, anybody ever hear that they asked JC Penny for access to their receipts?

Further, probably a big dead end waiting to crop up but what if JC Penny still had receipts going back that far in storage archives. I don't know enough about retail business to know if it is at all feasible to think they might still have receipts from that long ago but I bet someone does have a better idea of that feasibility.

Point of sale hardware circa 1971 was absolutely primitive by today's standards. If unfamiliar, type "1970 cash register" into Google Images. Even at the time it would have been an absolute nightmare trying to search out those tie sales. If it were possible at all. The chances of any of those records still existing 43 years later would be zero.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 05, 2014, 06:49:23 AM
Absolutely impossible. which JC Penny's would you check? we don't know where Cooper originated from to try and pin point a tie sold from a popular national department store. someone could of bought him the tie as a gift, or he purchased it through a second hand store etc. I tried to find out where the tie clip came from. no hallmark was on the clip, dozens of companies purchased it through a manufacture and boxed it under there name. the closest I got was it was probably manufactured in New Jersey, possibly by Anson. I just looked on Ebay the other nite and found several more companies with the tie clip. the tie also sported a tie pin, noted by the holes in the tie. this means it was probably not a recent purchase. what was on the tie helped in trying to figure out who Cooper was, but that's only if the tie was only worn by him.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on September 05, 2014, 01:47:38 PM
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Looking good!

Can we have a special category for bashing other members?  Or does Blevins need his own?   ;D ;D

Thanks. Mr. Blevins will be bashing himself after one post on here. it's sad that it had to come to this point, but we had no option. I'm sure he will be saying something soon via DZ. hopefully we can have actual discussions here without the insults. we have already had a lot of people sign in today. I hope we can make this work, and also exist elsewhere in the Cooper community. the forum is still in review with all the options to go through yet. lots of possibilities here.


I would also like to thank everyone for allowing this to happen. it's my pleasure, along with Bruce that this has made it to this point. speak out about any issues, any adjustments needed. like Frasier Crane always said, "I'm Listening"  8)

It is what it is. No avoiding it. And just who is responsible for that? Easy answer 4+ years in the making.

Vicki brings up confirmation bias - not the first time that has been suggested.   

Mr. Blevins stance on that>  Everyone else has confirmation bias. But not me! 'I am the only clear thinker'.

'and if I can't get that to float hen I will trying everything in the book to get people pissed and banned and then talk about how people were banned, because I operate on order direct from the Almighty, who by coincidence works at Adventure Books too!'

Only Joan Rivers could deal with RMB!  :) :)  There is always some joker who knows he is better-smarter than everyone else. Who constantly talks about manner but has none.




Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 05, 2014, 02:45:51 PM
Society will never allow another Joan Rivers. I commend her for standing up and telling it like it is. she didn't care, and she didn't do it to offend anyone either, but today they don't accept jokes like hers. R.I.P. Joan.....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 05, 2014, 04:20:22 PM
Good news, folks.  I got a PM at the DZ from a young man named John who says that his history teacher is talking about the DB Cooper skyjacking and has recommended that the students read the DZ and THIS site.

He was mostly asking about eye witnesses and who is still alive, conversant, etc.

As it turns out, the class is in NY, and I have invited myself to talk with the class during my foray Back East to attend my sister's wedding, September 23- October 14.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 05, 2014, 05:08:45 PM
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Good news, folks.  I got a PM at the DZ from a young man named John who says that his history teacher is talking about the DB Cooper skyjacking and has recommended that the students read the DZ and THIS site.

He was mostly asking about eye witnesses and who is still alive, conversant, etc.

As it turns out, the class is in NY, and I have invited myself to talk with the class during my foray Back East to attend my sister's wedding, September 23- October 14.

Sounds good, to bad they will need another semester to weed through the other site to find any Cooper discussions  ;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: 18C on September 05, 2014, 07:28:09 PM
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Good news, folks.  I got a PM at the DZ from a young man named John who says that his history teacher is talking about the DB Cooper skyjacking and has recommended that the students read the DZ and THIS site.

He was mostly asking about eye witnesses and who is still alive, conversant, etc.

As it turns out, the class is in NY, and I have invited myself to talk with the class during my foray Back East to attend my sister's wedding, September 23- October 14.

Off to infect them with the Cooper curse hey Bruce  ;)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 05, 2014, 11:30:26 PM
Hey, they'll be true believers when I'm done with 'em.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 06, 2014, 02:19:47 AM
Seriously, does anyone have any thoughts about Tina's claim in the Eugene Weekly that she flew NWO routes to Japan for five years after the skyjacking?

Legit?

A planted story?

A veiled rebuke of KC, Bob and Skippy?

How about the claim that she few until 1981 when she was supposedly in the convent, back in late 1979 or early 1980, and had been receiving residential medical care in Gresham before that????

Just another sunny day in the Vortex?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 07, 2014, 07:42:37 PM
I made another video/audio from the Washington Historical Society. I'm not sure what to make of this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHn6D-k-MPk
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 07, 2014, 08:12:57 PM
Fascinating stuff, Shut.  Thanks.

$250,000 and transferred from the SeaFirst Bank bag into a crew bag?  Wow. And Jack Almstad told me he saw the bank bag bulging like it was filled with bricks or stacks of money!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 07, 2014, 08:23:38 PM
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Fascinating stuff, Shut.  Thanks.

$250,000 and transferred from the SeaFirst Bank bag into a crew bag?  Wow. And Jack Almstad told me he saw the bank bag bulging like it was filled with bricks or stacks of money!

More questions than answers with that guy  8)

Gotta another audio file on the stove. should be done in about a half hour.....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 07, 2014, 09:22:28 PM
audio recording and transcript of interview with "BJ" Hickey, Cherry Weaver and Fran Devoll, retired personnel from Northwest Airlines discussing the hijacking of Northwest Orient Airlines Flight 305 by Dan Cooper (aka DB Cooper) on November 24, 1971. Interview also discusses security history of the airlines in general, from the 1960s to after 2011.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGqVCsgdAbk
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on September 07, 2014, 09:27:21 PM
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Fascinating stuff, Shut.  Thanks.

$250,000 and transferred from the SeaFirst Bank bag into a crew bag?  Wow. And Jack Almstad told me he saw the bank bag bulging like it was filled with bricks or stacks of money!

More questions than answers with that guy  8)

Gotta another audio file on the stove. should be done in about a half hour.....

Interesting thing is this guy doesn't just claim to be a witness,  he claims to be involved in part of the process.  Certainly if his transferring of the money were true, the FBI would corroborate it.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 07, 2014, 09:32:46 PM
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Fascinating stuff, Shut.  Thanks.

$250,000 and transferred from the SeaFirst Bank bag into a crew bag?  Wow. And Jack Almstad told me he saw the bank bag bulging like it was filled with bricks or stacks of money!

More questions than answers with that guy  8)

Gotta another audio file on the stove. should be done in about a half hour.....

Interesting thing is this guy doesn't just claim to be a witness,  he claims to be involved in part of the process.  Certainly if his transferring of the money were true, the FBI would corroborate it.


Possible member of the Knoss family  ;D :D :)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on September 08, 2014, 12:11:29 AM
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audio recording and transcript of interview with "BJ" Hickey, Cherry Weaver and Fran Devoll, retired personnel from Northwest Airlines discussing the hijacking of Northwest Orient Airlines Flight 305 by Dan Cooper (aka DB Cooper) on November 24, 1971. Interview also discusses security history of the airlines in general, from the 1960s to after 2011.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGqVCsgdAbk

adds perspective. At least from their perspective NWA wasn't the worker's "hell hole" Blevins (KC?) has pushed as part of Kenny's justification for hijacking a plane?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 08, 2014, 12:18:32 AM
Agreed, these are some of the people we should contact for info in regards to the strikes, pay scale etc. seems she seen the chutes as well.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 13, 2014, 10:56:19 AM
1. FOLLOWING IS FULL TEXT OF PRESS RELEASE ON THIS SUBJECT
ISSUED IN JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA ON MAY 8: QUOTE:
" THE MONEY PAID IN CONNECTION WITH THE HIJACKING OF AN
EASTERN AIRLINES FLIGHT IN MAY OF 1972 HAS BEEN RECOVERED
AFTER AN EXTENSIVE AND EXHAUSTIVE JOINT INVESTIGATION BY
THE FBI AND THE FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT
( FDLE).
" WILLIAM M. ALEXANDER, SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE OF THE
UNCLASSIFIED

WILLIAM L. REED OF THE FDLE, IN A JOINT RELEASE TODAY,
ANNOUNCED THAT THE DOLS 303,000 WHICH HAD BEEN PAID TO
FREDERICK WILLIAM HAHNEMAN ON MAY 5, L972, AT DULLES
INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT, CHANTILLY, VIRGINIA, IN CONNECTION
WITH THE HIJACKING OF EASTERN AIRLINES FLIGHT 175 FROM
ALLENTOWN, PENNSYLVANIA, TO MIAMI, FLORIDA, HAS BEEN
RECOVERED BY AGENTS OF THE FDLE AND THE JACKSONVILLE OFFICE
OF THE FBI.
" UPON RECOVERY OF THE MONEY, A CHECK WAS MADE OF THE
NATIONAL CRIME INFORMATION CENTER, FBI HEADQUARTERS,
WASHINGTON, D. C., WHICH DETERMINED THE SERIAL NUMBERS
TALLIED WITH THE RANSOM MONEY PAID IN CONNECTION WITH THE
HIJACKING.
" ON MAY 5, 1972, EASTERN AIRLINES FLIGHT 175 WAS
HIJACKED BY A LONE ARMED GUNMAN WHO DEMANDED AND RECEIVED
DOLS 303,000, PARACHUTES, JUMP SUITS, HELMETS, KNIVES, AND
2,000 BENSON AND HEDGES CIGARETTES. AFTER THE MONEY AND
EQUIPMENT HAD BEEN PLACED ABOARD THE AIRCRAFT, THE
HIJACKER PERMITTED THE PASSENGERS AND ONE STEWARDESS TO
DEPLANE. THE AIRCRAFT BEARING SIX CREW MEMBERS AND THE
HIJACKER THEN TOOK OFF AND LANDED AT NEW ORLEANS,
LOUISIANA, WHERE THE HIJACKER AND SIX CREW MEMBERS BOARDED
ANOTHER AIRCRAFT. DURING THE EARLY MORNING OF MAY 6, 1972,
OVER THE JUNGLES NEAR A SMALL TOWN OF YORO, HONDURAS, THE
HIJACKER BAILED OUT THROUGH THE LOWERED REAR DOOR.
" THE HIJACKER WAS LATER IDENTIFIED AS FREDERICK WILLIAM
HAHNEMAN, A 49- YEAR- OLD EASTON, PENNSYLVANIA, MAN. ON
JUNE 3, 1972, HAHNEMAN SURRENDERED TO AUTHORITIES AT THE
AMERICAN EMBASSY IN HONDURAS AND HE WAS SUBSEQUENTLY
RETURNED TO THE UNITED STATES. ON SEPTEMBER 29, 1972,
HAHNEMAN WAS SENTENCED IN U. S. DISTRICT COURT, ALEXANDRIA,
VIRGINIA, TO LIFE IMPRISONMENT.
" ALEXANDER AND REED STATED THAT THE MONEY WAS BEING TURNED
OVER TO EASTERN AIRLINES OFFICIALS.
" THE FBI SAID THIS RECOVERY SHOWS THAT HIJACKING AN
UNCLASSIFIED


PAGE 03 STATE 088847
AIRPLANE FOR EXTORTIONATE DEMANDS IS NOT VERY PROFITABLE.
SINCE JUNE 4, 1970, THERE HAVE BEEN 27 HIJACKINGS WHEREIN
THE HIJACKERS' EXTORTIONATE DEMANDS AMOUNTED TO DOLS
121,944,100 OF WHICH DOLS 6,656,250 WAS ACTUALLY PAID.
OF THE RANSOM DEMANDS PAID, ONLY DOLS 2,200, OOO REMAINS
OUTSTANDING, DOLS 2,000,000 OF WHICH IS PRESENTLY IN
LITIGATION IN CONNECTION WITH THE NOVEMBER 10, 1972,

HIJACKING OF A SOUTHERN AIRWAYS FLIGHT. THE REMAINING
DOLS 200,000 WAS PAID TO A STILL UNIDENTIFIED HIJACKER
KNOWN ONLY AS D. B. COOPER WHO HIJACKED A PLANE ON
THANKSGIVING EVE, 1971, AND BAILED OUT SOMEWHERE OVER THE
STATES OF WASHINGTON OR OREGON. THE DOLS 200,000 PAID TO
D. B. COOPER IS THE ONLY MONEY UNACCOUNTED FOR." UNQTE
2. LEGATT MANAGUA WILL PROVIDE FURTHER DETAILS. ROGERS
UNCLASSIFIED

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 13, 2014, 04:22:16 PM
The info on Hahneman is excellent.

What year was the money recovered?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 13, 2014, 04:58:55 PM
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The info on Hahneman is excellent.

What year was the money recovered?


   There was a rash of airplane hijackings occurring around the world, between 1967 and 1972. On May 5, 1972, an Eastern Airlines 727 jet was hijacked at A-B-E Airport. This, the only hijacking in the history of the airport, occurred when Frederick W. Hahneman, boarded the jet and threatened the crew with a gun. The jet was scheduled to fly to Washington D.C. then on to Miami, Florida. Hahneman, a 49-year-old engineer from Easton, demanded $303,000 in large bills and six parachutes. He ordered the plane to land at Dulles International Airport where he received the ransom on board the plane. He then released everyone except the crew. The plane made a stop in New Orleans for repairs then flew over Honduras where Hahneman jumped from the plane with the briefcase full of cash. On June 2nd Hahneman turned himself in to the U.S. Embassy in Honduras. He pled guilty to the charges of air piracy and served 12 years in prison. The F.B.I. found all of the $303,000 but would not give any details about their investigation.


http://blog.lehighvalleylive.com/lehigh-valley-history/2011/05/easton_man_hijacked_plane_in_1.html

(http://media.tumblr.com/48f0239d45e2c519fcb11b876872ebc5/tumblr_inline_mie0mwVx4M1qz4rgp.jpg)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 13, 2014, 05:14:06 PM
This photo possibly shows the money could be in the bag behind him carried by an agent coming down the stairs of the plane. guy looks like Duane Weber  ;D :D 8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 13, 2014, 05:38:26 PM
A-b-e Hijacker Who Parachuted Into Jungle Is Free From Prison Air Piracy


June 30, 1985|by FRANK WHELAN, Sunday Call-Chronicle
The staff at the Americus Hotel didn't trust George Ames.

When he checked into the Allentown hotel on May 2, 1972, thewell-dressed businessman from New York seemed pleasant enough. Night clerk Jane Slough recalled him as "nice, very polite." But another night clerk, Dorothy Miller, soon grew suspicious. "He always seemed to have a preoccupied air," she was to tell The Morning Call later. "You couldn't get close to him for some reason. He seemed to put a wall up around him right away."

The rest can be found here.

http://articles.mcall.com/1985-06-30/news/2464617_1_hijacking-eastern-airlines-night-clerk

"For the crew of Flight 175, the ordeal ended May 6 at about 4 a.m. over the jungles of Honduras. The hijacker ordered the pilot to slow the plane down. Clutching his currency-filled attache case, Hahneman jumped out the plane's back door into the dense undergrowth."

The composite is pretty damn good if you ask me (see photo)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 13, 2014, 09:48:46 PM
My understanding is that Hahneman did not have the cash on him when he turned himself into the American Embassy in Tegucigalpa.  Freddie turned himself in about a month after the skyjacking, as I understand the story.

Now the Jacksonville, FLA feddies have Freddie's cash?  Hmmm.  How did that happen?

I'd love to know how he landed in the jungle, how the ground search was conducted, and how he got away.  Plus, what did he do for a month, and then why did he turn himself in?

I wonder where he is now.

I have a fondness for this story in part because I went to school in Bethlehem (The B part of ABE Airport) for two years.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 13, 2014, 09:50:57 PM
If I have the right guy, he is dead. died in 1991.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: KidCooper on September 19, 2014, 04:59:12 AM
Any info/insights regarding the possibility of whether the FBI or any sleuths ever looked into customers who attended skydiving schools prior to the hijacking? I recall having read very vague info regarding the FBI investigating skydiving schools in some way or another but it was too vague for me to make any determination on whether the FBI actually attempted to gather names of individuals who took lessons from skydiving schools. While I wouldn't expect Cooper to have used his real name as a customer I wouldn't rule out an alias being able to be connected to a suspect.

Related to that: anyone have any info/insights as to whether the FBI/sleuths ever talked to operators of skydiving schools to ask them if they recognized the Cooper sketch, or if any customers seemed strange, etc.
Any and all thoughts very much appreciated.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on September 19, 2014, 01:01:17 PM
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Any info/insights regarding the possibility of whether the FBI or any sleuths ever looked into customers who attended skydiving schools prior to the hijacking? I recall having read very vague info regarding the FBI investigating skydiving schools in some way or another but it was too vague for me to make any determination on whether the FBI actually attempted to gather names of individuals who took lessons from skydiving schools. While I wouldn't expect Cooper to have used his real name as a customer I wouldn't rule out an alias being able to be connected to a suspect.

Related to that: anyone have any info/insights as to whether the FBI/sleuths ever talked to operators of skydiving schools to ask them if they recognized the Cooper sketch, or if any customers seemed strange, etc.
Any and all thoughts very much appreciated.

My 'impression' is, it was a massive search. The FBI and others looked under every rock they could find. It's an untold story! And it just might be in that untold saga some important clues about why this case was never solved exist.    [in fact its under the principle of 'missing the obvious' /right under your nose/, that Jo Weber and Blevins market their stories! That is quite different from the real story of the DB Cooper Investigation the FBI and other officials could tell, and that is an understatement!]

 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on September 19, 2014, 01:06:21 PM
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Any info/insights regarding the possibility of whether the FBI or any sleuths ever looked into customers who attended skydiving schools prior to the hijacking? I recall having read very vague info regarding the FBI investigating skydiving schools in some way or another but it was too vague for me to make any determination on whether the FBI actually attempted to gather names of individuals who took lessons from skydiving schools. While I wouldn't expect Cooper to have used his real name as a customer I wouldn't rule out an alias being able to be connected to a suspect.

Related to that: anyone have any info/insights as to whether the FBI/sleuths ever talked to operators of skydiving schools to ask them if they recognized the Cooper sketch, or if any customers seemed strange, etc.
Any and all thoughts very much appreciated.

Some skydivers who attended a skydiving event (which may have been a National Meet of some kind) in the Seattle area shortly after the hijacking told me that the FBI paid them a visit and talked to a lot of people.  Among the questions asked was if the skydivers thought Cooper could have survived the jump.  I was told that the majority of skydivers thought that Cooper died in the jump.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 19, 2014, 06:23:34 PM
My understanding is that the FBI was all over the skydiving community in the days immediately following the hijacking. In fact, reports from GG indicate that Earl Cossey was brought in to help with focusing this aspect of the investigation, and told the agents involved that Cooper didn't have to a pro or any kind of expert to successfully jump at night from a 727.

I talked with at least one SOG trooper who was interrogated by the FBI upon his return from Vietnam in circa 1972. Special Agent John Detlor indicated to me that the Bureau did a substantive investigation of paratroopers, especially SF.

Some time later, Coss changed his tune and the FBI adopted the notion that Cooper was an idiot who didn't know what he was doing and died in the jump.

Bruce Thun, the jump master at Thun Field told me that the general feeling at Thun the day after was, "Why didn't I think of that!"  Bruce also told me that the FBI investigation at Thun was so extensive and knowledgeable of personal traits of certain skydivers it was clear that the surveillance at Thun was extensive and long-term.  Bruce's comment was, "How did they know all that stuff?"  He was very upset at the level of FBI surveillance and knowledge, even knowing where the girlfriend of one the Thun skydivers lived in Oregon and was miffed at her skydiving bf for missing her T-Day turkey.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: KidCooper on September 21, 2014, 06:44:38 AM
Good info all around, certainly seems possible the FBI gathered customer lists from skydiving schools. I haven't ruled out trying to contact some schools myself though I think I would lose them right about the time I started asking if they still have records on any customers from '71 and prior. Not to mention some are likely not still in business and any one's that are's willingness to share customers names may be an issue. Not to mention the likelihood that had Cooper taken lessons he would have almost certainly created an alias for the sole purpose of using it to take the lessons. Unless he was using some sort of check fraud to pay for the lessons with an alias he also used to purchase other goods or services. If that were true authorities may have possibly linked that alias to Coopers real name through investigating the check fraud at other businesses (or maybe even check fraud used at the skydiving school itself). Too much of a long shot to not file under dead end, for now, but thought I'd mention it as something I have considered.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 21, 2014, 04:46:29 PM
There aren't that many jump sites around.  Back in the day, it was Thun Field and Issaquah Sky Sports around Tacoma, and a third field north of Seattle.  There are a few smaller ones, such as Kapowsin Field south of Thun, but they are all interconnected as far as I can tell.  Guys know who is who.

Maybe you should tg along with Sail and me when we head to Ralph Hatley's place in Eagle Creek when I get back from NY.  Late October.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 21, 2014, 04:51:03 PM
As for survivability, the skydivers who spoke at the 2013 Symposium in Tacoma clearly indicated that the jump was survivable.

Also, remember that all the copycats who jumped made it to the ground successfully, including Martin McNally , who didn't know how to put on his chute and had to be shown. Also, Richard LaPoint made it okay in January in Colorado in the snow, wearing only a shirt and slacks.  And his cowboy boots....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: 18C on September 21, 2014, 05:07:17 PM
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As for survivability, the skydivers who spoke at the 2013 Symposium in Tacoma clearly indicated that the jump was survivable.

Also, remember that all the copycats who jumped made it to the ground successfully, including Martin McNally , who didn't know how to put on his chute and had to be shown. Also, Richard LaPoint made it okay in January in Colorado in the snow, wearing only a shirt and slacks.  And his cowboy boots....

Sounds like if Richard LaPoint had chosen boots with flexible soles he might well have made it out uninjured.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 21, 2014, 05:20:58 PM
Regardless of the experience, I would believe each case is going to be different. even a marksman misses a shot. we can't even agree on Cooper's experience, let alone him surviving. one never really knows.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0uq-4oiq_k
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 25, 2014, 05:13:43 PM
(http://misfit120.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/db-cooper.jpg)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 25, 2014, 05:20:31 PM
Interesting video. shows a couple seconds of 305 in motion......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoyTTlIEd6Y
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 26, 2014, 08:58:59 AM
The Morning Star.....November 27, 1971

Couple interesting points in this article. Scott tells of the plane near the Woodland area, and Tom Manning describes how the path was being calculated.
(see attachments)

The second page of the article is hard to read due to no subscription. The FBI said Cooper jumped 25 minutes after takeoff...


http://newspaperarchive.com/us/pennsylvania/uniontown/uniontown-morning-herald/1971/11-27/
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 28, 2014, 12:18:13 PM
I wonder if the FBI looked into the background of FREDERICK WILLIAM HAHNEMAN who hijacked a plane in May of 1972. lots of people try and claim McCoy did two hijackings, why not someone else? Fredrick's has some possible motives and actions that are similar to Cooper's. people have claimed it could of been politically motivated. Fredrick's was "anti'communist" which was a strong subject in the 70's "I have a grude". he was also a smoker, but asked for two cartons of Benson & Hedges, and all kinds of gear. this could just be a well planned out plot, but could also be one from lessons learned?

Fredrick's was an engineer in Easton Pa. many claim Cooper had this position.

He has been quoted as being "nice, very polite." just as Cooper was.

Cooper said "no funny stuff"
Fredrick's said "don't try anything funny"

His composite sketch was pretty good. I took the composite and shaded his sunglasses in and put it with some Cooper composites.

I just found it strange about a lot of the similarities, but that's all they might be.....





Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 28, 2014, 12:31:32 PM
Well, like I said. it might all be just a coincidence. seem Fredrick's was only 5' 8". that counts him out in my book......
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on September 28, 2014, 02:10:13 PM
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I wonder if the FBI looked into the background of FREDERICK WILLIAM HAHNEMAN who hijacked a plane in May of 1972. lots of people try and claim McCoy did two hijackings, why not someone else? Fredrick's has some possible motives and actions that are similar to Cooper's. people have claimed it could of been politically motivated. Fredrick's was "anti'communist" which was a strong subject in the 70's "I have a grude". he was also a smoker, but asked for two cartons of Benson & Hedges, and all kinds of gear. this could just be a well planned out plot, but could also be one from lessons learned?

Fredrick's was an engineer in Easton Pa. many claim Cooper had this position.

He has been quoted as being "nice, very polite." just as Cooper was.

Cooper said "no funny stuff"
Fredrick's said "don't try anything funny"

His composite sketch was pretty good. I took the composite and shaded his sunglasses in and put it with some Cooper composites.

I just found it strange about a lot of the similarities, but that's all they might be.....

I keep going back to the physical evidence left on the plane. Evidently, none of the finger prints matched anyone of significance? The mtdna evidence is problematic and leads nowhere, except FBI spokespeople are quick to say what they have is exclusionary and can rule people out, whatever that means!  And yet there are so many experts and people cock-sure of this or that ... on the internet. It's a 'riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." And only 377 and Jo Weber and RobertMBlevins (whoever he is!) knows for sure! Just another day in the DB Cooper famine in nowheresville.

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 28, 2014, 02:24:26 PM
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I wonder if the FBI looked into the background of FREDERICK WILLIAM HAHNEMAN who hijacked a plane in May of 1972. lots of people try and claim McCoy did two hijackings, why not someone else? Fredrick's has some possible motives and actions that are similar to Cooper's. people have claimed it could of been politically motivated. Fredrick's was "anti'communist" which was a strong subject in the 70's "I have a grude". he was also a smoker, but asked for two cartons of Benson & Hedges, and all kinds of gear. this could just be a well planned out plot, but could also be one from lessons learned?

Fredrick's was an engineer in Easton Pa. many claim Cooper had this position.

He has been quoted as being "nice, very polite." just as Cooper was.

Cooper said "no funny stuff"
Fredrick's said "don't try anything funny"

His composite sketch was pretty good. I took the composite and shaded his sunglasses in and put it with some Cooper composites.

I just found it strange about a lot of the similarities, but that's all they might be.....

I keep going back to the physical evidence left on the plane. Evidently, none of the finger prints matched anyone of significance? The mtdna evidence is problematic and leads nowhere, except FBI spokespeople are quick to say what they have is exclusionary and can rule people out, whatever that means!  And yet there are so many experts and people cock-sure of this or that ... on the internet. It's a 'riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." And only 377 and Jo Weber and RobertMBlevins (whoever he is!) knows for sure! Just another day in the DB Cooper famine in nowheresville.

One has to wonder, If the FBI has good prints and they claim he probably had priors, it kinda rules that out. the prints should of gave a return. do they have good prints, or was Cooper never caught before and was never in the military?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 28, 2014, 07:33:37 PM
Did Cossey always claim all 4 chutes came from him? in the documentary flight from justice he said he provided two chutes? is this where it's possible people misunderstood his words. what I mean is he packed all 4, but only gave the FBI two?


Batting zero today, I'm reading Bruce's long post on DZ where Cossey has changed his story a couple times.....

From Sluggo's site....

Earl Cossey actually packed all four chutes, the two back pack chutes were sold or given to the individual who sent them in the cab to Boeing Field. Cossey also packed the reserve chutes, but they were provided not by Cossey but the owner of Issaquah Sky Sports. Cossey discovered that one chute was for “Training Only” later on.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 28, 2014, 08:57:53 PM
I found the link to the FBI website showing the entire flight path map.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2009/march/in-search-of-d.b.-cooper/cooper-gallery/map/view
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: 18C on September 28, 2014, 11:03:24 PM
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Well, like I said. it might all be just a coincidence. seem Fredrick's was only 5' 8". that counts him out in my book......

5' 8'' suspects seem to be a dime a dozen.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 28, 2014, 11:26:02 PM
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Well, like I said. it might all be just a coincidence. seem Fredrick's was only 5' 8". that counts him out in my book......

5' 8'' suspects seem to be a dime a dozen.

Since they always have a loophole to go through, I guess we need to change the description.

5' 1 to 6' 11"
120 lbs to 300 lbs
Olive to pale white skin
Green pull over elf shoes (size 18)
Hair blondish, brown. bald on top, or curly to wavy.

A red cape was noticed hanging out the back of his overcoat with 6 layers of thermal underwear. his glasses were gold plated bearing the name Jefferson prison system clearly visible on the side. undocumented reports claim Cooper tried to sell insurance to Tina, and other
members of the crew.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on September 29, 2014, 12:14:16 AM
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Well, like I said. it might all be just a coincidence. seem Fredrick's was only 5' 8". that counts him out in my book......

5' 8'' suspects seem to be a dime a dozen.

Im guessing 5'8" was an average height for American males during that time. (maybe even slightly shorter). ???
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on September 29, 2014, 12:23:59 AM
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I found the link to the FBI website showing the entire flight path map.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2009/march/in-search-of-d.b.-cooper/cooper-gallery/map/view

When you say the "entire flight path map" what do you mean?  Does this map show the flight path down to the Fort Jones, CA VORTAC?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on September 29, 2014, 12:29:57 AM
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I wonder if the FBI looked into the background of FREDERICK WILLIAM HAHNEMAN who hijacked a plane in May of 1972. lots of people try and claim McCoy did two hijackings, why not someone else? Fredrick's has some possible motives and actions that are similar to Cooper's. people have claimed it could of been politically motivated. Fredrick's was "anti'communist" which was a strong subject in the 70's "I have a grude". he was also a smoker, but asked for two cartons of Benson & Hedges, and all kinds of gear. this could just be a well planned out plot, but could also be one from lessons learned?

Fredrick's was an engineer in Easton Pa. many claim Cooper had this position.

He has been quoted as being "nice, very polite." just as Cooper was.

Cooper said "no funny stuff"
Fredrick's said "don't try anything funny"

His composite sketch was pretty good. I took the composite and shaded his sunglasses in and put it with some Cooper composites.

I just found it strange about a lot of the similarities, but that's all they might be.....

I keep going back to the physical evidence left on the plane. Evidently, none of the finger prints matched anyone of significance? The mtdna evidence is problematic and leads nowhere, except FBI spokespeople are quick to say what they have is exclusionary and can rule people out, whatever that means!  And yet there are so many experts and people cock-sure of this or that ... on the internet. It's a 'riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." And only 377 and Jo Weber and RobertMBlevins (whoever he is!) knows for sure! Just another day in the DB Cooper famine in nowheresville.

One has to wonder, If the FBI has good prints and they claim he probably had priors, it kinda rules that out. the prints should of gave a return. do they have good prints, or was Cooper never caught before and was never in the military?

Beats the hell out of me! Evidently not in the american military or in american data bases? That makes one wonder! If the name Dan Cooper does relate to the French comic then perhaps this guy was not an American in spite of his linguistic phonology (accent)  ?  I am convinced people including the stew would have picked up any linguistic anomaly. Moreover his notes evidently didn't throw a language flag ?

There is no published evidence he made ANY attempt to hide his fingerprints; in fact just the opposite. Neither did he apparently try and hide his language profile? Bewildering.

Carol's identification of Canada as a possible origin, based on the comic, is a little far fetched, imho.  Olive skin is very suggestive of an ethnic identity of some kind, imo. I would love to have the genetic profiles the FBI had worked up because I am very curious there just might be a marker in those results which might point to a haplotype grouping? Something is missing that should be making itself known! There are experts who deal with genetic puzzles like this the FBI might consult, just for the hell-of-it! To me the fact his prints did not come up on any data base sampled (if that's true) points to some specific cause which links directly to the man's identity.

I wonder if foreign data bases were ever consulted? Would the Cubans cooperate to do that!?

Was the tie tested for 'food type chemistries' ? I doubt it. I dont think Tom thought to do that. I mean everybody eats? (on this planet)

In fact!, the possibility of a Cuban connection is one of the most under-explored/under-reported aspects of this whole case and something that may very well be deep under the rug. ???  Never mind Cooper had olive skin, demanded to go to Mexico City (his first choice uttered), he then wanted Reno which had a ton of Cuban connections at the time, he had a distinctly foreign look according to some,  may have had marcelled hair, Cuban related  people were doing a high percentage of the airplane hijackings at the time, and if you take several of the 'cliches' he used as a clue he may have been making a special effort to talk in 'Americanese' (to Americans so Americans would understand his intentions and demands)? I mean look at his actions and things he said and did from his perspective if he wasn't an American? Then, if the lack of palpable accent is true, something odd is going on in the case of Mr. Cooper ?  His stated "grudge" could have been political. And the irony is:  Himmelsbach's first description of Cooper, without having ever met the guy but relying on agent and NWA reports, was as a "food service worker"! That goes directly to the possibility of a foreigner in Himmelsbach's mind based on the descriptions he was getting through the bureau, which could add up to "Hello Che and Fidel adios muchachos" - strike one for Cuba!" ???

Carr stayed far away from any Cuban connection, but does that mean the FBI never explored that possibility? You almost know they did and had to! And yet that data is NOWHERE in the published dozier of this case. Why!?
 
He could have been an anti-Castro element based in Florida working in America (in metals fabrication?), someone with a non-American military background, ...... with a reverse political grudge ! A Bay of Pigs grudge?

If this hijacking were to happen today, there would be a whole new battery of tests and procedures in play with different results.

 

   
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 29, 2014, 06:51:33 AM
Hardly any of it makes any sense. they have never spoken of any suspects turning up by checking the prints. I believe if not mistaken they get several hits on a good print, and they have to determine which print is the right one by an expert over the computer. how many prints do they have after narrowing some of them down that were explained. If they have a good full print of Cooper do we rule out he was never arrested, or in the military?

Nobody in this Country has come forward missing a brother, or father during this period except Vicki. she has ran into many walls over this. I think Vicki could add more about the problems with the red tape and missing persons. I doubt any data bases have been checked outside the U.S. especially back in the 70's.

I think if we knew what his actual grudge was it could of helped in many ways understanding who Cooper was.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on September 29, 2014, 08:58:33 AM
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Hardly any of it makes any sense. they have never spoken of any suspects turning up by checking the prints. I believe if not mistaken they get several hits on a good print, and they have to determine which print is the right one by an expert over the computer. how many prints do they have after narrowing some of them down that were explained. If they have a good full print of Cooper do we rule out he was never arrested, or in the military?

Nobody in this Country has come forward missing a brother, or father during this period except Vicki. she has ran into many walls over this. I think Vicki could add more about the problems with the red tape and missing persons. I doubt any data bases have been checked outside the U.S. especially back in the 70's.

I think if we knew what his actual grudge was it could of helped in many ways understanding who Cooper was.

If the FBI ran the prints of Cooper in the IAFIS system, they would not be able to run them against the military prints. There are different databases within the system, but the only prints they could legally/ethically compare with are the prints uploaded to the system of people who have been arrested or have a criminal record. This is if all prints from the past were uploaded.

Many old fingerprint cards were never uploaded because they old cases were closed. I was told this by a US Marshal in Central Wisconsin. In addition, I have not received an answer from anyone in the law enforcement field saying if my dad's prints were ever uploaded. If the FBI had a good suspect they could pull the military prints to compare.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/fingerprints_biometrics/iafis/iafis_services

Reading the IAFIS link from the FBI makes me wonder if Cooper's prints are uploaded into the latent database files....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on September 29, 2014, 02:00:35 PM
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Hardly any of it makes any sense. they have never spoken of any suspects turning up by checking the prints. I believe if not mistaken they get several hits on a good print, and they have to determine which print is the right one by an expert over the computer. how many prints do they have after narrowing some of them down that were explained. If they have a good full print of Cooper do we rule out he was never arrested, or in the military?

Nobody in this Country has come forward missing a brother, or father during this period except Vicki. she has ran into many walls over this. I think Vicki could add more about the problems with the red tape and missing persons. I doubt any data bases have been checked outside the U.S. especially back in the 70's.

I think if we knew what his actual grudge was it could of helped in many ways understanding who Cooper was.

If the FBI ran the prints of Cooper in the IAFIS system, they would not be able to run them against the military prints. There are different databases within the system, but the only prints they could legally/ethically compare with are the prints uploaded to the system of people who have been arrested or have a criminal record. This is if all prints from the past were uploaded.

Many old fingerprint cards were never uploaded because they old cases were closed. I was told this by a US Marshal in Central Wisconsin. In addition, I have not received an answer from anyone in the law enforcement field saying if my dad's prints were ever uploaded. If the FBI had a good suspect they could pull the military prints to compare.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/fingerprints_biometrics/iafis/iafis_services

Reading the IAFIS link from the FBI makes me wonder if Cooper's prints are uploaded into the latent database files....

Vicki, here is my complete fingerprint record:

1.  Fingerprinted at about the age of 16 so that I could fly as a passenger of USAF aircraft.

2.  Fingerprints and a passport type photograph provided to the Federal Aviation Administration at about the age of 17 which was required for the issuance of an Airman's Identification Card (which are no longer required).

3.  Fingerprinted by the US Military when starting active duty.

4.  Worked for several different US Government organizations and was fingerprinted with each change of organization.

I have never been arrested and do not have a criminal record.

As I understand your remarks, even today the FBI would not necessarily have a copy of my fingerprints in their organizational files.

Is the above correct?

Robert99
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on September 29, 2014, 02:15:02 PM
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Hardly any of it makes any sense. they have never spoken of any suspects turning up by checking the prints. I believe if not mistaken they get several hits on a good print, and they have to determine which print is the right one by an expert over the computer. how many prints do they have after narrowing some of them down that were explained. If they have a good full print of Cooper do we rule out he was never arrested, or in the military?

Nobody in this Country has come forward missing a brother, or father during this period except Vicki. she has ran into many walls over this. I think Vicki could add more about the problems with the red tape and missing persons. I doubt any data bases have been checked outside the U.S. especially back in the 70's.

I think if we knew what his actual grudge was it could of helped in many ways understanding who Cooper was.

We don't really know what the "full" discussion between Tina and Cooper was, regarding his announcement he had a "grudge". All we are told is Tina asked him 'why are you doing this?' or something to that effect, and his reply was something like: "I have a grudge". Nothing further.

Second, I think Himmelsbach's early statement that 'he might be a food service worker working in the area' (of Portland) had some basis in data the FBI thought it had at the time. That statement may have been based on some assumption about the person's 'ethnicity', based on early witnesses reports about how Cooper looked and was acting. An early attempt at classification -

Third, I have long been told by people supposedly close to the FBI that the FBi was keeping several facts about Cooper's physical description 'close to their vest'. One trait was "marcelled hair - a European look"! Gray then surfaces years later after reviewing FBI files and he (Geoff) announces "mercalled hair" for the first time publicly.
When you join "olive skin" with "marcelled hair" that is almost a tip-off to European or Caribbean ethnicity ?

Fourth, the fact that prints did not register in any domestic data base opens to the door to a foreigner. And if that is the case the 'case' immediately gets more complicated to trace and could involve foreign cooperation which might or might-not be forthcoming, especially if Cuba was involved.

Let me stop here -

     
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 29, 2014, 02:46:15 PM
Did everyone watch this video I posted a while back?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtqKLsusLXE#t=131
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 29, 2014, 03:09:51 PM
It sounds like we all need to work together and start our own database of evidence. what I mean is starting from the minute the plane took off. what was said, who said it etc. and put it into a locked thread..... A mythbuster thread....

These are Cooper’s exact words as spoken to Schaffner:
Cooper said to Schaffner; "Take this down. I want $200,000 by 5:00 PM in cash. Put it in a knapsack. I want two back parachutes and two front parachutes. When we land, I want a fuel truck ready to refuel. No funny stuff, or I'll do the job."

What happen to " negotiable American currency" ?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: 18C on September 29, 2014, 04:27:15 PM
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Did everyone watch this video I posted a while back?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtqKLsusLXE#t=131

Yes, I did, and I guess what they are doing was fairly inevitable.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: 18C on September 29, 2014, 04:33:29 PM
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It sounds like we all need to work together and start our own database of evidence. what I mean is starting from the minute the plane took off. what was said, who said it etc. and put it into a locked thread..... A mythbuster thread....

These are Cooper’s exact words as spoken to Schaffner:
Cooper said to Schaffner; "Take this down. I want $200,000 by 5:00 PM in cash. Put it in a knapsack. I want two back parachutes and two front parachutes. When we land, I want a fuel truck ready to refuel. No funny stuff, or I'll do the job."

What happen to " negotiable American currency" ?

There have also been miscellaneous claims DBC specified he wanted $20 bills, and on the balance of information, I vey much doubt he did.

I think your suggestion of starting our own database is the way to go. Go back to the beginning using first principals and lay it down as it really happened, or at least as it can be best verified. I'd suggest a new thread for the exercise to keep it lean and clean.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 29, 2014, 05:21:47 PM
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It sounds like we all need to work together and start our own database of evidence. what I mean is starting from the minute the plane took off. what was said, who said it etc. and put it into a locked thread..... A mythbuster thread....

These are Cooper’s exact words as spoken to Schaffner:
Cooper said to Schaffner; "Take this down. I want $200,000 by 5:00 PM in cash. Put it in a knapsack. I want two back parachutes and two front parachutes. When we land, I want a fuel truck ready to refuel. No funny stuff, or I'll do the job."

What happen to " negotiable American currency" ?

There have also been miscellaneous claims DBC specified he wanted $20 bills, and on the balance of information, I very much doubt he did.

I think your suggestion of starting our own database is the way to go. Go back to the beginning using first principals and lay it down as it really happened, or at least as it can be best verified. I'd suggest a new thread for the exercise to keep it lean and clean.

I forget things about the case all the time, and have to go searching for the answers. I'm trying to set everything up here so it can be a "one stop shop" for Cooper. making everything easily accessible to all. The DZ has a lot of good stuff on it, but it's hard to file through all of the crap. I'm an old school type of guy, but not with this forum. we have a lot better technology to use here. I'm trying to take advantage of everything. sometimes I screw the forum up (not knowing what i'm doing) and the forum goes down  :-X but, I get right back on the horse and keep trotting.

I'm all ears on how to go about doing this. I just thought of it, so it's not something I had planned. let's see what others have to say, and go from that point.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: 18C on September 29, 2014, 10:39:45 PM
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It sounds like we all need to work together and start our own database of evidence. what I mean is starting from the minute the plane took off. what was said, who said it etc. and put it into a locked thread..... A mythbuster thread....

These are Cooper’s exact words as spoken to Schaffner:
Cooper said to Schaffner; "Take this down. I want $200,000 by 5:00 PM in cash. Put it in a knapsack. I want two back parachutes and two front parachutes. When we land, I want a fuel truck ready to refuel. No funny stuff, or I'll do the job."

What happen to " negotiable American currency" ?

There have also been miscellaneous claims DBC specified he wanted $20 bills, and on the balance of information, I very much doubt he did.

I think your suggestion of starting our own database is the way to go. Go back to the beginning using first principals and lay it down as it really happened, or at least as it can be best verified. I'd suggest a new thread for the exercise to keep it lean and clean.

I forget things about the case all the time, and have to go searching for the answers...

So do I. Someone asks me something and when I can't answer it straight out they say "haven't you read a pile of books on this?"

Truth is the more you read on DBC the more confused you get. You end up answering people's question with "which answer would you like to hear?"
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on September 29, 2014, 10:53:22 PM
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Hardly any of it makes any sense. they have never spoken of any suspects turning up by checking the prints. I believe if not mistaken they get several hits on a good print, and they have to determine which print is the right one by an expert over the computer. how many prints do they have after narrowing some of them down that were explained. If they have a good full print of Cooper do we rule out he was never arrested, or in the military?

Nobody in this Country has come forward missing a brother, or father during this period except Vicki. she has ran into many walls over this. I think Vicki could add more about the problems with the red tape and missing persons. I doubt any data bases have been checked outside the U.S. especially back in the 70's.

I think if we knew what his actual grudge was it could of helped in many ways understanding who Cooper was.

If the FBI ran the prints of Cooper in the IAFIS system, they would not be able to run them against the military prints. There are different databases within the system, but the only prints they could legally/ethically compare with are the prints uploaded to the system of people who have been arrested or have a criminal record. This is if all prints from the past were uploaded.

Many old fingerprint cards were never uploaded because they old cases were closed. I was told this by a US Marshal in Central Wisconsin. In addition, I have not received an answer from anyone in the law enforcement field saying if my dad's prints were ever uploaded. If the FBI had a good suspect they could pull the military prints to compare.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/fingerprints_biometrics/iafis/iafis_services

Reading the IAFIS link from the FBI makes me wonder if Cooper's prints are uploaded into the latent database files....

Vicki, here is my complete fingerprint record:

1.  Fingerprinted at about the age of 16 so that I could fly as a passenger of USAF aircraft.

2.  Fingerprints and a passport type photograph provided to the Federal Aviation Administration at about the age of 17 which was required for the issuance of an Airman's Identification Card (which are no longer required).

3.  Fingerprinted by the US Military when starting active duty.

4.  Worked for several different US Government organizations and was fingerprinted with each change of organization.

I have never been arrested and do not have a criminal record.

As I understand your remarks, even today the FBI would not necessarily have a copy of my fingerprints in their organizational files.

Is the above correct?

Robert99

When I spoke to my liaison at NamUs we discussed the IAFIS System when I asked if the prints uploaded by NamUs could be compared to the criminal databases. She exclaimed that the federal depository for prints had several databases. Missing person prints are uploaded and only checked when a unknown corpse needs to be identified (this is the database my father's prints were uploaded to). She explained that military prints were kept in a separate database as opposed to the criminal database. When latent prints from a crime scene are searched, they are only searched against the criminal database. I had my prints taken for a federal criminal background check and once they were run against the criminal database, they were destroyed and not cataloged.  Military prints are cataloged for casualties of war. Government prints are cataloged for security reasons and stored in their own separate database.

The CODIS DNA system is similar. I asked our NamUs liaison if they could run my brother and my DNA against the criminal side. She told me it is only run against the database of missing persons.

Quote
From: http://www.fbi.gov/foia/privacy-impact-assessments/iafis

Pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 534 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/5340), the FBI acquires, collects, classifies, and preserves identification, criminal identification, crime, and other records and exchanges such records and information with, and for the official use of, authorized officials of the Government, including the United States Sentencing Commission, the States, cities, and penal and other institutions. Since 1924, the FBI has collected, preserved, classified, and exchanged fingerprint records in support of its identification activities and the activities of other Federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies. Categories of fingerprints currently maintained in the Fingerprint Identification Record System (FIRS) includes: criminal fingerprints, federal applicants and employees, United States military, aliens, and those submitted to the FBI by persons desiring to have their fingerprints placed on record for personal identification purposes. Additionally, fingerprints of military detainees and other persons of national security interest are now being collected for national security purposes.

Other info: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/fingerprints_biometrics/iafis/iafis_services

So, your prints could be on the database. Not the criminal database that I originally referred to. 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on September 29, 2014, 11:25:44 PM
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Hardly any of it makes any sense. they have never spoken of any suspects turning up by checking the prints. I believe if not mistaken they get several hits on a good print, and they have to determine which print is the right one by an expert over the computer. how many prints do they have after narrowing some of them down that were explained. If they have a good full print of Cooper do we rule out he was never arrested, or in the military?

Nobody in this Country has come forward missing a brother, or father during this period except Vicki. she has ran into many walls over this. I think Vicki could add more about the problems with the red tape and missing persons. I doubt any data bases have been checked outside the U.S. especially back in the 70's.

I think if we knew what his actual grudge was it could of helped in many ways understanding who Cooper was.

If the FBI ran the prints of Cooper in the IAFIS system, they would not be able to run them against the military prints. There are different databases within the system, but the only prints they could legally/ethically compare with are the prints uploaded to the system of people who have been arrested or have a criminal record. This is if all prints from the past were uploaded.

Many old fingerprint cards were never uploaded because they old cases were closed. I was told this by a US Marshal in Central Wisconsin. In addition, I have not received an answer from anyone in the law enforcement field saying if my dad's prints were ever uploaded. If the FBI had a good suspect they could pull the military prints to compare.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/fingerprints_biometrics/iafis/iafis_services

Reading the IAFIS link from the FBI makes me wonder if Cooper's prints are uploaded into the latent database files....

Vicki, here is my complete fingerprint record:

1.  Fingerprinted at about the age of 16 so that I could fly as a passenger of USAF aircraft.

2.  Fingerprints and a passport type photograph provided to the Federal Aviation Administration at about the age of 17 which was required for the issuance of an Airman's Identification Card (which are no longer required).

3.  Fingerprinted by the US Military when starting active duty.

4.  Worked for several different US Government organizations and was fingerprinted with each change of organization.

I have never been arrested and do not have a criminal record.

As I understand your remarks, even today the FBI would not necessarily have a copy of my fingerprints in their organizational files.

Is the above correct?

Robert99

When I spoke to my liaison at NamUs we discussed the IAFIS System when I asked if the prints uploaded by NamUs could be compared to the criminal databases. She exclaimed that the federal depository for prints had several databases. Missing person prints are uploaded and only checked when a unknown corpse needs to be identified (this is the database my father's prints were uploaded to). She explained that military prints were kept in a separate database as opposed to the criminal database. When latent prints from a crime scene are searched, they are only searched against the criminal database. I had my prints taken for a federal criminal background check and once they were run against the criminal database, they were destroyed and not cataloged.  Military prints are cataloged for casualties of war. Government prints are cataloged for security reasons and stored in their own separate database.

The CODIS DNA system is similar. I asked our NamUs liaison if they could run my brother and my DNA against the criminal side. She told me it is only run against the database of missing persons.

Quote
From: http://www.fbi.gov/foia/privacy-impact-assessments/iafis

Pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 534 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/5340), the FBI acquires, collects, classifies, and preserves identification, criminal identification, crime, and other records and exchanges such records and information with, and for the official use of, authorized officials of the Government, including the United States Sentencing Commission, the States, cities, and penal and other institutions. Since 1924, the FBI has collected, preserved, classified, and exchanged fingerprint records in support of its identification activities and the activities of other Federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies. Categories of fingerprints currently maintained in the Fingerprint Identification Record System (FIRS) includes: criminal fingerprints, federal applicants and employees, United States military, aliens, and those submitted to the FBI by persons desiring to have their fingerprints placed on record for personal identification purposes. Additionally, fingerprints of military detainees and other persons of national security interest are now being collected for national security purposes.

Other info: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/fingerprints_biometrics/iafis/iafis_services

So, your prints could be on the database. Not the criminal database that I originally referred to.

Surely all data bases can be searched, if warranted. ???? Just an assumption on my part.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on September 29, 2014, 11:27:59 PM
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It sounds like we all need to work together and start our own database of evidence. what I mean is starting from the minute the plane took off. what was said, who said it etc. and put it into a locked thread..... A mythbuster thread....

These are Cooper’s exact words as spoken to Schaffner:
Cooper said to Schaffner; "Take this down. I want $200,000 by 5:00 PM in cash. Put it in a knapsack. I want two back parachutes and two front parachutes. When we land, I want a fuel truck ready to refuel. No funny stuff, or I'll do the job."

What happen to " negotiable American currency" ?

There have also been miscellaneous claims DBC specified he wanted $20 bills, and on the balance of information, I very much doubt he did.

I think your suggestion of starting our own database is the way to go. Go back to the beginning using first principals and lay it down as it really happened, or at least as it can be best verified. I'd suggest a new thread for the exercise to keep it lean and clean.

I forget things about the case all the time, and have to go searching for the answers...

So do I. Someone asks me something and when I can't answer it straight out they say "haven't you read a pile of books on this?"

Truth is the more you read on DBC the more confused you get. You end up answering people's question with "which answer would you like to hear?"

That is your admission ticket into "Cooper Royalty"! You pass with honors! Congrats! You are now a full-fledged member of the Cooper Royalty with all privileges and responsibilities thereof.  I love it!  :) :) :)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on September 29, 2014, 11:32:02 PM
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It sounds like we all need to work together and start our own database of evidence. what I mean is starting from the minute the plane took off. what was said, who said it etc. and put it into a locked thread..... A mythbuster thread....

These are Cooper’s exact words as spoken to Schaffner:
Cooper said to Schaffner; "Take this down. I want $200,000 by 5:00 PM in cash. Put it in a knapsack. I want two back parachutes and two front parachutes. When we land, I want a fuel truck ready to refuel. No funny stuff, or I'll do the job."

What happen to " negotiable American currency" ?

There have also been miscellaneous claims DBC specified he wanted $20 bills, and on the balance of information, I vey much doubt he did.

I think your suggestion of starting our own database is the way to go. Go back to the beginning using first principals and lay it down as it really happened, or at least as it can be best verified. I'd suggest a new thread for the exercise to keep it lean and clean.

No. He made no such request. That is a myth. Its been discussed countless times. All he asked for was "negotiable currency". (Not a check)  :)  He made no request for particular denominations. The FBI took the liberty of giving him twenties - a heavy load. That part is true. Carr covered this ....

 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on September 29, 2014, 11:34:04 PM
georger says......
Quote
Surely all data bases can be searched, if warranted. ???? Just an assumption on my part.

If warranted......so can homes, businesses, cell phones, computers, vehicles etc. with probable cause and/or a search warrant.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on September 30, 2014, 12:02:08 AM
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georger says......
Quote
Surely all data bases can be searched, if warranted. ???? Just an assumption on my part.

If warranted......so can homes, businesses, cell phones, computers, vehicles etc. with probable cause and/or a search warrant.

Let me just say it would be a revelation (to me) if all databases Stateside weren't searched by somebody, in the search for Cooper. But, I have been known to assume things that all too often turn out not to be true ... like the car I just bought from a local longtime high end auto dealer ... and it turns out today they don't even have a title from the former owner for the vehicle!?????????????    Come on guys!    Ding ding... DOT? Is it legal for _____________ to sell cars without having any title?  We paid cash. ..........................

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 30, 2014, 12:16:57 AM
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georger says......
Quote
Surely all data bases can be searched, if warranted. ???? Just an assumption on my part.

If warranted......so can homes, businesses, cell phones, computers, vehicles etc. with probable cause and/or a search warrant.

Let me just say it would be a revelation (to me) if all databases Stateside weren't searched by somebody, in the search for Cooper. But, I have been known to assume things that all too often turn out not to be true ... like the car I just bought from a local longtime high end auto dealer ... and it turns out today they don't even have a title from the former owner for the vehicle!?????????????    Come on guys!    Ding ding... DOT? Is it legal for _____________ to sell cars without having any title?  We paid cash. ..........................





I posted on your post....sorry.

some states require it as a law. I worked in a used car lot my brother in law had. what a joke it is with the things they cover up. the car you purchased could of just been acquired through another owner, or auction.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on September 30, 2014, 12:34:01 AM
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georger says......
Quote
Surely all data bases can be searched, if warranted. ???? Just an assumption on my part.

If warranted......so can homes, businesses, cell phones, computers, vehicles etc. with probable cause and/or a search warrant.

Let me just say it would be a revelation (to me) if all databases Stateside weren't searched by somebody, in the search for Cooper. But, I have been known to assume things that all too often turn out not to be true ... like the car I just bought from a local longtime high end auto dealer ... and it turns out today they don't even have a title from the former owner for the vehicle!?????????????    Come on guys!    Ding ding... DOT? Is it legal for _____________ to sell cars without having any title?  We paid cash. ..........................

I agree there was a heavy search for Cooper in the 70's. However, as you may have seen in the FBI fingerprint vault video shutter posted, the fingerprint database was massive. In addition, the FBI states they have unknown latent prints and partials. If .....IF...(IF) the FBI, or another authorized authority, have searched in recent years I would suspect they would need a judge to sign a warrant for such a search. That ol' "fruit of the poisonous tree" thingy.

Sorry about the car...can you force a title at the DMV with the bill of sale?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: 18C on September 30, 2014, 01:42:26 AM
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georger says......
Quote
Surely all data bases can be searched, if warranted. ???? Just an assumption on my part.

If warranted......so can homes, businesses, cell phones, computers, vehicles etc. with probable cause and/or a search warrant.

Let me just say it would be a revelation (to me) if all databases Stateside weren't searched by somebody, in the search for Cooper. But, I have been known to assume things that all too often turn out not to be true ... like the car I just bought from a local longtime high end auto dealer ... and it turns out today they don't even have a title from the former owner for the vehicle!?????????????    Come on guys!    Ding ding... DOT? Is it legal for _____________ to sell cars without having any title?  We paid cash. ..........................

I agree there was a heavy search for Cooper in the 70's. However, as you may have seen in the FBI fingerprint vault video shutter posted, the fingerprint database was massive. In addition, the FBI states they have unknown latent prints and partials. If .....IF...(IF) the FBI, or another authorized authority, have searched in recent years I would suspect they would need a judge to sign a warrant for such a search. That ol' "fruit of the poisonous tree" thingy.

Sorry about the car...can you force a title at the DMV with the bill of sale?

Perhaps part of the reason for the apparent lack of urgency in attempting to solve this case is the negligible risk DBC might pose to the public at approximately age 90 - assuming he's still alive of course.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on September 30, 2014, 10:01:57 PM
Jo Weber is now claiming that she spent a 20 that had the name Dan Cooper written on it. Amazing.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 30, 2014, 10:04:14 PM
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Jo Weber is now claiming that she spent a 20 that had the name Dan Cooper written on it. Amazing.


I seen it. I'm waiting on her to say she had the briefcase, but the airlines lost it  ;D :D ;)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on September 30, 2014, 11:21:34 PM
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Jo Weber is now claiming that she spent a 20 that had the name Dan Cooper written on it. Amazing.

Why not - she has claimed everything else.

She's just one more personality disorder hosted by Dropzone/wackoes.com

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: 18C on September 30, 2014, 11:28:01 PM
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Jo Weber is now claiming that she spent a 20 that had the name Dan Cooper written on it. Amazing.

Perhaps the handwriting matches her own  ;)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 01, 2014, 12:02:38 AM
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Jo Weber is now claiming that she spent a 20 that had the name Dan Cooper written on it. Amazing.

Why not - she has claimed everything else.

She's just one more personality disorder hosted by Dropzone/wackoes.com


She could of wrote some good scripts for the Bond episodes  :D Bond, Duane Bond. whiskey on the rocks, shaken, not stirred  ;D :D :)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on October 01, 2014, 12:40:42 AM
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Jo Weber is now claiming that she spent a 20 that had the name Dan Cooper written on it. Amazing.

Why not - she has claimed everything else.

She's just one more personality disorder hosted by Dropzone/wackoes.com


She could of wrote some good scripts for the Bond episodes  :D Bond, Duane Bond. whiskey on the rocks, shaken, not stirred  ;D :D :)

Be forewarned! Don't get on her bad side. She has made people's lives miserable.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 01, 2014, 08:05:35 AM
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Jo Weber is now claiming that she spent a 20 that had the name Dan Cooper written on it. Amazing.

Why not - she has claimed everything else.

She's just one more personality disorder hosted by Dropzone/wackoes.com


She could of wrote some good scripts for the Bond episodes  :D Bond, Duane Bond. whiskey on the rocks, shaken, not stirred  ;D :D :)

Be forewarned! Don't get on her bad side. She has made people's lives miserable.



She will have to take a number.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: BuckwheatFlowers on October 01, 2014, 08:49:23 AM
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Jo Weber is now claiming that she spent a 20 that had the name Dan Cooper written on it. Amazing.

LOL.  If she had it before she knew about DB Cooper, she would never remember that twenty.  How many bills have you ever had with writing on it?  Remember what was written on any of them?  Me neither.  If she had it after she knew about DB Cooper, well then..... yeah.... ummmm..... she must have been super hard up for money.  I'm calling Bill Stewart.   
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 01, 2014, 10:24:49 AM
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Jo Weber is now claiming that she spent a 20 that had the name Dan Cooper written on it. Amazing.

LOL.  If she had it before she knew about DB Cooper, she would never remember that twenty.  How many bills have you ever had with writing on it?  Remember what was written on any of them?  Me neither.  If she had it after she knew about DB Cooper, well then..... yeah.... ummmm..... she must have been super hard up for money.  I'm calling Bill Stewart.


How can someone remember something so irrelevant as throwing trash away 30 years later? I have a very good memory dating back to 3 years old, but I couldn't tell you what anyone was doing, or talking about 6 months ago. certain events can cause a "recall" but between Jo and Marla having clear vivid memories in detail is just to hard to accept.

I just had a bill with writing on it yesterday. I haven't a clue what it said, even if it became the headlines in the news I don't think that would trigger remembering what was on the bill. theses stories seem to be used to help validate the story. it's hard to dispute since you can't research it.

I understand the FBI has much better things to do other than the Cooper case. I wish they would simplify things and give an update on the case, and the suspects that have been ruled out. a very simple update on there website wouldn't take up any time at all, and would benefit many!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on October 01, 2014, 12:28:31 PM
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Jo Weber is now claiming that she spent a 20 that had the name Dan Cooper written on it. Amazing.

LOL.  If she had it before she knew about DB Cooper, she would never remember that twenty.  How many bills have you ever had with writing on it?  Remember what was written on any of them?  Me neither.  If she had it after she knew about DB Cooper, well then..... yeah.... ummmm..... she must have been super hard up for money.  I'm calling Bill Stewart.

Jo also says there is an FBI Flight Path map that has the word NO on it! She says this indicates the map was NOT the true flight path (map).

Does anyone have a photo of Duane with the word No or No. on it, to indicate he was NOT Cooper?

Hey I found one! That's close enough.

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 01, 2014, 12:49:03 PM
She has indicated in the past that she wrote the "No" on the map. I find it hard to believe since the map from the FBI dates back into the 70's long before Jo was around. I also doubt they would allow tampering with evidence either!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on October 01, 2014, 12:58:02 PM
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She has indicated in the past that she wrote the "No" on the map. I find it hard to believe since the map from the FBI dates back into the 70's long before Jo was around. I also doubt they would allow tampering with evidence either!

The letters "NO" are written in at least two places on the flight path map that shutter posted a couple of days ago.  There are also other letters written that are related to the "NO" letters.  Their meaning has never been explained. 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 01, 2014, 02:16:42 PM
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She has indicated in the past that she wrote the "No" on the map. I find it hard to believe since the map from the FBI dates back into the 70's long before Jo was around. I also doubt they would allow tampering with evidence either!

The letters "NO" are written in at least two places on the flight path map that shutter posted a couple of days ago.  There are also other letters written that are related to the "NO" letters.  Their meaning has never been explained.


The letters on the map are as follows.

from the top
NC
NO...almost like the second letter covered a mistake?
NA
NQ
NN faint at the bottom of the map.

I'm not sure if the the letters have any meaning with the locations where they are marked? some are with the path, while others are far away?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on October 01, 2014, 02:28:29 PM
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She has indicated in the past that she wrote the "No" on the map. I find it hard to believe since the map from the FBI dates back into the 70's long before Jo was around. I also doubt they would allow tampering with evidence either!

The letters "NO" are written in at least two places on the flight path map that shutter posted a couple of days ago.  There are also other letters written that are related to the "NO" letters.  Their meaning has never been explained.

In fact there are FIVE large N(letter) insignias written in black magic marker on the original full length map published on the FBI website. There are in order (north to south): NC, NO, NA, NO or NQ, and NW at the bottom of the map.
The full sized FBI map is too large to post here. Here are a couple of the icons.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on October 01, 2014, 02:30:16 PM
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She has indicated in the past that she wrote the "No" on the map. I find it hard to believe since the map from the FBI dates back into the 70's long before Jo was around. I also doubt they would allow tampering with evidence either!

The letters "NO" are written in at least two places on the flight path map that shutter posted a couple of days ago.  There are also other letters written that are related to the "NO" letters.  Their meaning has never been explained.


The letters on the map are as follows.

from the top
NC
NO...almost like the second letter covered a mistake?
NA
NQ
NN faint at the bottom of the map.

I'm not sure if the the letters have any meaning with the locations where they are marked? some are with the path, while others are far away?

Here's my map if it will post.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on October 01, 2014, 02:41:24 PM
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She has indicated in the past that she wrote the "No" on the map. I find it hard to believe since the map from the FBI dates back into the 70's long before Jo was around. I also doubt they would allow tampering with evidence either!

The letters "NO" are written in at least two places on the flight path map that shutter posted a couple of days ago.  There are also other letters written that are related to the "NO" letters.  Their meaning has never been explained.


The letters on the map are as follows.

from the top
NC
NO...almost like the second letter covered a mistake?
NA
NQ
NN faint at the bottom of the map.

I'm not sure if the the letters have any meaning with the locations where they are marked? some are with the path, while others are far away?

Each insignia has also been changed, written over, or is a composite of multiple writings. There is large red pencil writing under some of the black magic marker. NO may have been ND originally? Could that ND stand for NO DATA?
Take a look at each magic marker writing to see what is underneath it?
 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 01, 2014, 02:48:08 PM
The letter must of been by itself. it doesn't line up with the N. could also be a B?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on October 01, 2014, 03:01:00 PM
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The letter must of been by itself. it doesn't line up with the N. could also be a B?

I had another post on this a couple of minutes ago but it seems to have gotten lost somewhere.  The first letter "N" suggests some ordered sequence and probably related to maps.  If the second letters are in some kind of sequence top to bottom, or bottom to top, then that would strengthen the case for the letters referring to some other and non-aeronautical series of maps.

Shutter, can you decipher the non-aeronautical maps that were on the wall of the picture in the "office" of the people who were involved in the first ground search for Cooper?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 01, 2014, 03:03:31 PM
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The letter must of been by itself. it doesn't line up with the N. could also be a B?

I had another post on this a couple of minutes ago but it seems to have gotten lost somewhere.  The first letter "N" suggests some ordered sequence and probably related to maps.  If the second letters are in some kind of sequence top to bottom, or bottom to top, then that would strengthen the case for the letters referring to some other and non-aeronautical series of maps.

Shutter, can you decipher the non-aeronautical maps that were on the wall of the picture in the "office" of the people who were involved in the first ground search for Cooper?


I can try, any of them, or all? Georger, you might want to take a poke at this as well...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on October 01, 2014, 03:51:15 PM
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The letter must of been by itself. it doesn't line up with the N. could also be a B?

I had another post on this a couple of minutes ago but it seems to have gotten lost somewhere.  The first letter "N" suggests some ordered sequence and probably related to maps.  If the second letters are in some kind of sequence top to bottom, or bottom to top, then that would strengthen the case for the letters referring to some other and non-aeronautical series of maps.

Shutter, can you decipher the non-aeronautical maps that were on the wall of the picture in the "office" of the people who were involved in the first ground search for Cooper?


I can try, any of them, or all? Georger, you might want to take a poke at this as well...

That's a possibility - what R99 suggests. Those codes stand for something. I will try to pull more of the layering out tonight...Ive always noticed layering in those letters and wondered what those codes stood for and who made them when...

 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 01, 2014, 04:00:52 PM
Here is the maps from the wall just above where Tom is sitting.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on October 01, 2014, 04:12:32 PM
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Jo Weber is now claiming that she spent a 20 that had the name Dan Cooper written on it. Amazing.

LOL.  If she had it before she knew about DB Cooper, she would never remember that twenty.  How many bills have you ever had with writing on it?  Remember what was written on any of them?  Me neither.  If she had it after she knew about DB Cooper, well then..... yeah.... ummmm..... she must have been super hard up for money.  I'm calling Bill Stewart.


How can someone remember something so irrelevant as throwing trash away 30 years later? I have a very good memory dating back to 3 years old, but I couldn't tell you what anyone was doing, or talking about 6 months ago. certain events can cause a "recall" but between Jo and Marla having clear vivid memories in detail is just to hard to accept.

I just had a bill with writing on it yesterday. I haven't a clue what it said, even if it became the headlines in the news I don't think that would trigger remembering what was on the bill. theses stories seem to be used to help validate the story. it's hard to dispute since you can't research it.

I understand the FBI has much better things to do other than the Cooper case. I wish they would simplify things and give an update on the case, and the suspects that have been ruled out. a very simple update on there website wouldn't take up any time at all, and would benefit many!

So, I'm guessing that you also don't remember everyone who was or wasn't at your thanksgiving dinner 40+ years ago?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 01, 2014, 04:26:56 PM
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Jo Weber is now claiming that she spent a 20 that had the name Dan Cooper written on it. Amazing.

LOL.  If she had it before she knew about DB Cooper, she would never remember that twenty.  How many bills have you ever had with writing on it?  Remember what was written on any of them?  Me neither.  If she had it after she knew about DB Cooper, well then..... yeah.... ummmm..... she must have been super hard up for money.  I'm calling Bill Stewart.


How can someone remember something so irrelevant as throwing trash away 30 years later? I have a very good memory dating back to 3 years old, but I couldn't tell you what anyone was doing, or talking about 6 months ago. certain events can cause a "recall" but between Jo and Marla having clear vivid memories in detail is just to hard to accept.

I just had a bill with writing on it yesterday. I haven't a clue what it said, even if it became the headlines in the news I don't think that would trigger remembering what was on the bill. theses stories seem to be used to help validate the story. it's hard to dispute since you can't research it.

I understand the FBI has much better things to do other than the Cooper case. I wish they would simplify things and give an update on the case, and the suspects that have been ruled out. a very simple update on there website wouldn't take up any time at all, and would benefit many!

So, I'm guessing that you also don't remember everyone who was or wasn't at your thanksgiving dinner 40+ years ago?

Nope, got nothin'  :D ;D

Seriously, let me see. sometimes we had Thanksgiving at my Grandmothers house, but I have no idea what years that happened. sometimes my Great Grandfather was there, but again he died in the early 70's so I have no idea again who was at the dinner from 40+ years. Cousins sometimes showed, friends of Mom and Dad etc. etc.

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on October 01, 2014, 05:04:14 PM
Yep, my brother makes it in every other year and I was trying the other day to remember if he was here last year or not.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on October 01, 2014, 11:20:18 PM
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Here is the maps from the wall just above where Tom is sitting.

Is that Washington or the Amazon? (laughing) Cant see much.  ;) Let me see what I can pull out of these 'codes' image-wise. 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 04, 2014, 10:16:00 AM
Interesting read from the obituary of Captain Scott........

In his later years, however, Scott talked more openly of his suspicion that Cooper had died in the jump, and he laughed that Northwest had "shorted" the ransom by $20,000.

The story can be found here:

http://www.startribune.com/local/11577686.html

I'm building a crew profile for the photo gallery. does anyone know if any pictures of Alice were made public? any bio's on Alice, or the flight engineer Harold Anderson would be helpful.....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 04, 2014, 11:16:05 AM
(http://huntfordbcooper.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/newcoopersketch-223x300.jpg)

This is directly from Gray's website....

Over the years, there have been many D.B. Cooper sketches. There’s the Bing Crosby sketch, released shortly after the hijacking; the one that followed that; the aged depiction of Cooper; all are different in their own ways, have merit in their own ways, and were based on the recollection of three witnesses: Stewardesses Tina Mucklow, Florence Schaffner, and Alice Hancock, who worked in first class.

One witness, however, that was not interviewed by Bureau artists was Robert Gregory, owner of a paint company in Seattle, who sat directly across from the hijacker in row 18. While stewardesses Mucklow and Schaffner were closest to the hijacker and Mucklow spent the longest time with him, Gregory was the most detailed and specific in his observations, according to the Bureau case files.

For instance, Gregory noticed the sunglasses the hijacker was wearing had “horned-rims” and the suit jacket the hijacker was wearing had “wide lapels.” Working with paints, Gregory was likely an expert in picking out colors. According to the Cooper case files, Gregory believed the hijacker’s suit was not black or brown as had been suggested, but was a different shade entirely: “russet.”

Most critically, Gregory described the hijacker’s hair in a very specific way: “Marcelled,” an old French style of creating curls with hot irons. The observation of “marcelled” hair is critical in the case because stewardesses’ Mucklow and Schaffner described the hijacker’s hair as straight. There was one witness though who did back up Gregory’s claim of curly hair: Alice Hancock, the first class stew, who described the hijacker’s hair as “wavy.”

Attached is a new sketch of the hijacker, the “Gregory” sketch, designed as a supplement to the other Cooper sketches out there, and composed by the talented illustrator John Burgoyne. To read more about the sketch and recent Cooper news,
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 04, 2014, 11:34:56 AM
"After ordering a second bourbon and water, Cooper paid with a twenty–dollar bill, instructing Schaffner to keep the change, an eighteen–dollar tip."

If not mistaken Cooper paid with a 20 for his ticket. was it that common to have multiple 20's in the early 70's. that was considered a lot of money. what happened to the money given by Cooper?

http://witness.blackmountaininstitute.org/issues/volume-27-no-1-spring-2014/the-pursuit-of-d-b-cooper/
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on October 04, 2014, 02:51:51 PM
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"After ordering a second bourbon and water, Cooper paid with a twenty–dollar bill, instructing Schaffner to keep the change, an eighteen–dollar tip."

If not mistaken Cooper paid with a 20 for his ticket. was it that common to have multiple 20's in the early 70's. that was considered a lot of money. what happened to the money given by Cooper?

http://witness.blackmountaininstitute.org/issues/volume-27-no-1-spring-2014/the-pursuit-of-d-b-cooper/

If the $$$$$$ at Tina Bar is any indication it all rotted or went down the river, or wound up in the vault at "Through the Lens of Logic Headquarters" which is a subsidiary of Adventure Books - R&G Housecleaning LTD Inc.  ;)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 10, 2014, 12:00:05 AM
Since the early 1970’s, superplastic forming of titanium alloys became a feasible
manufacturing technology for military aircraft in USA and also for the Concorde supersonic
civil aircraft in Europe. In the next decade, new superplastic titanium and aluminium alloys
were developed for different structural applications for military airframes and engines, but the
first really implementation of SPF/DB was Boeing F15 Eagle, and Eurofighter afterwards.

http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/35/96/85/PDF/eurospf08-serra.pdf
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 10, 2014, 11:03:04 PM
I was watching "Wings Over Vietnam" tonite. it was about rescuing downed pilots. what caught my eye was the introduction of the Sikorsky HH-3 helicopters used for the rescues. this was in the mid 1960's. they had a thousand pounds of armor on them made of Titanium. Sikorsky is a manufacture here in the United States, and other Countries, including Canada.

Just how far back does Titanium and aircraft go?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on October 10, 2014, 11:14:52 PM
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I was watching "Wings Over Vietnam" tonite. it was about rescuing downed pilots. what caught my eye was the introduction of the Sikorsky HH-3 helicopters used for the rescues. this was in the mid 1960's. they had a thousand pounds of armor on them made of Titanium. Sikorsky is a manufacture here in the United States, and other Countries, including Canada.

Just how far back does Titanium and aircraft go?

That's right - I totally forgot about that armor plate. Nice find! It has to be an alloy of Ti.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on October 11, 2014, 12:43:55 AM
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I was watching "Wings Over Vietnam" tonite. it was about rescuing downed pilots. what caught my eye was the introduction of the Sikorsky HH-3 helicopters used for the rescues. this was in the mid 1960's. they had a thousand pounds of armor on them made of Titanium. Sikorsky is a manufacture here in the United States, and other Countries, including Canada.

Just how far back does Titanium and aircraft go?

That's right - I totally forgot about that armor plate. Nice find! It has to be an alloy of Ti.

Titanium was used in aircraft parts that could be cast and didn't require extensive machining prior to the B-70 and the SR-71 aircraft and its predecessors.

The first aircraft in the SR-71 series was known as the Lockheed A-11 (or maybe A-12).  Its design was started in the late 1950s and it first flew about 1962.  Machined Titanium was used extensively in the SR-71 series and Lockheed had to literally re-invent the wheel to develop methods to machine Titanium.  The aircraft systems, fluids, etc., all had to be invented from scratch in order to handle the terrific heat that they were exposed to while flying several hours at Mach 3.2+.

And the Boeing SST, which never flew, would have used Titanium extensively.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 11, 2014, 01:57:27 AM
Thanks R99. I wish I had a powerful microscope. you can get swirl metal also from drilling. I would like to see what the remains look like on a drill press after drilling tough metals.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on October 12, 2014, 01:08:26 AM
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Thanks R99. I wish I had a powerful microscope. you can get swirl metal also from drilling. I would like to see what the remains look like on a drill press after drilling tough metals.

you can find drill shavings on Google images _

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on October 23, 2014, 05:17:39 PM
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(http://huntfordbcooper.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/newcoopersketch-223x300.jpg)

This is directly from Gray's website....

Over the years, there have been many D.B. Cooper sketches. There’s the Bing Crosby sketch, released shortly after the hijacking; the one that followed that; the aged depiction of Cooper; all are different in their own ways, have merit in their own ways, and were based on the recollection of three witnesses: Stewardesses Tina Mucklow, Florence Schaffner, and Alice Hancock, who worked in first class.

One witness, however, that was not interviewed by Bureau artists was Robert Gregory, owner of a paint company in Seattle, who sat directly across from the hijacker in row 18. While stewardesses Mucklow and Schaffner were closest to the hijacker and Mucklow spent the longest time with him, Gregory was the most detailed and specific in his observations, according to the Bureau case files.

For instance, Gregory noticed the sunglasses the hijacker was wearing had “horned-rims” and the suit jacket the hijacker was wearing had “wide lapels.” Working with paints, Gregory was likely an expert in picking out colors. According to the Cooper case files, Gregory believed the hijacker’s suit was not black or brown as had been suggested, but was a different shade entirely: “russet.”

Most critically, Gregory described the hijacker’s hair in a very specific way: “Marcelled,” an old French style of creating curls with hot irons. The observation of “marcelled” hair is critical in the case because stewardesses’ Mucklow and Schaffner described the hijacker’s hair as straight. There was one witness though who did back up Gregory’s claim of curly hair: Alice Hancock, the first class stew, who described the hijacker’s hair as “wavy.”

Attached is a new sketch of the hijacker, the “Gregory” sketch, designed as a supplement to the other Cooper sketches out there, and composed by the talented illustrator John Burgoyne. To read more about the sketch and recent Cooper news,

Well...I did it. I contacted William Mitchell. I sent a letter USPS on October 3, 2014. He sent me an email on October 8, 2014 as a response to my letter.
I attached a Word Document with part of our email exchange.

What I found interesting is his comments about his memories of the likeliness of the hijacker compared to the FBI composite sketch. He thought the sketch portrayed the hijacker's face too thin.

Concerning my father:
He found that my fathers facial features were more consistent to what he remembers.
He had hesitations about the size of my father in the video from 1970 (the lake shot) and thought Mel was too big, but
according to Unsolved Mysteries episode, my father was 6' and 180 lbs at the time of his disappearance on September 15. 1971.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 23, 2014, 07:18:13 PM
Quote
Well...I did it. I contacted William Mitchell. I sent a letter USPS on October 3, 2014. He sent me an email on October 8, 2014 as a response to my letter.

What did you think of his response?

And to think you did this without sending it to the wrong address, or making a big deal about it. that's how it's done.  8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on October 24, 2014, 12:11:43 AM
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Quote
Well...I did it. I contacted William Mitchell. I sent a letter USPS on October 3, 2014. He sent me an email on October 8, 2014 as a response to my letter.

What did you think of his response?

And to think you did this without sending it to the wrong address, or making a big deal about it. that's how it's done.  8)

I thought Mitchell gave a very thoughtful response and took the time to say what he thought matched his memory of DB Cooper and what didn't.  And, he gave us a direct statement from a witness to talk about.

The one thing I thought was interesting was Mitchell's statement that he didn't think the drawing really captured what DB Cooper looked like.  Kind tells you people are wasting their time photoshopping pictures of their suspects to match the drawing.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on October 24, 2014, 02:27:38 AM
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(http://huntfordbcooper.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/newcoopersketch-223x300.jpg)

This is directly from Gray's website....

Over the years, there have been many D.B. Cooper sketches. There’s the Bing Crosby sketch, released shortly after the hijacking; the one that followed that; the aged depiction of Cooper; all are different in their own ways, have merit in their own ways, and were based on the recollection of three witnesses: Stewardesses Tina Mucklow, Florence Schaffner, and Alice Hancock, who worked in first class.

One witness, however, that was not interviewed by Bureau artists was Robert Gregory, owner of a paint company in Seattle, who sat directly across from the hijacker in row 18. While stewardesses Mucklow and Schaffner were closest to the hijacker and Mucklow spent the longest time with him, Gregory was the most detailed and specific in his observations, according to the Bureau case files.

For instance, Gregory noticed the sunglasses the hijacker was wearing had “horned-rims” and the suit jacket the hijacker was wearing had “wide lapels.” Working with paints, Gregory was likely an expert in picking out colors. According to the Cooper case files, Gregory believed the hijacker’s suit was not black or brown as had been suggested, but was a different shade entirely: “russet.”

Most critically, Gregory described the hijacker’s hair in a very specific way: “Marcelled,” an old French style of creating curls with hot irons. The observation of “marcelled” hair is critical in the case because stewardesses’ Mucklow and Schaffner described the hijacker’s hair as straight. There was one witness though who did back up Gregory’s claim of curly hair: Alice Hancock, the first class stew, who described the hijacker’s hair as “wavy.”

Attached is a new sketch of the hijacker, the “Gregory” sketch, designed as a supplement to the other Cooper sketches out there, and composed by the talented illustrator John Burgoyne. To read more about the sketch and recent Cooper news,

Well...I did it. I contacted William Mitchell. I sent a letter USPS on October 3, 2014. He sent me an email on October 8, 2014 as a response to my letter.
I attached a Word Document with part of our email exchange.

What I found interesting is his comments about his memories of the likeliness of the hijacker compared to the FBI composite sketch. He thought the sketch portrayed the hijacker's face too thin.

Concerning my father:
He found that my fathers facial features were more consistent to what he remembers.
He had hesitations about the size of my father in the video from 1970 (the lake shot) and thought Mel was too big, but
according to Unsolved Mysteries episode, my father was 6' and 180 lbs at the time of his disappearance on September 15. 1971.

What interests me is Mitchell's 'sense' of sizing Cooper up - Mitchell says: 'In 1971 I was 6'2" and probably weighed 195 lbs. and in pretty good shape.' Mitchell was a young vigorous male/college student. Mitchell says after learning what was really going on with Cooper he thought: 'I could have overpowered him'. Key word is "overpowered" him. That puts Cooper as slighter in build, or maybe less physically dominant in presence and demeanor in Mitchell's assessment, especially if Mitchell and Cooper were similar in height. That's an interesting judgment if Mitchell wasn't just boasting as an after-thought?

You might ask Mitchell what specifically made him think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker. If it was a physical comparison or an overall general appraisal of the hijacker including his age, compared to the younger Mitchell himself. Ask Mitchell if he was a wrestler or in athletics as a college student, or had been in high school, or if Mitchell was going through any military training like ROTC in college etc? What made Mitchell think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker ?

   
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 24, 2014, 09:11:23 AM
Quote
What made Mitchell think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker ?

Young, and cocky would do it.  8)

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Mitchell's hijacker descr'n)
Post by: hom on October 24, 2014, 03:55:48 PM
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Mitchell says: 'In 1971 I was 6'2" and probably weighed 195 lbs. and in pretty good shape.' Mitchell was a young vigorous male/college student. Mitchell says after learning what was really going on with Cooper he thought: 'I could have overpowered him'. Key word is "overpowered" him. That puts Cooper as slighter in build, or maybe less physically dominant in presence and demeanor in Mitchell's assessment, especially if Mitchell and Cooper were similar in height. That's an interesting judgment if Mitchell wasn't just boasting as an after-thought?

..... What made Mitchell think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker ?

The following is out of Mitchell's intervue by the museum:

"I told the FBI, you know if I was walking down the aisle and I knew he didn’t…I knew what was going on, and he didn’t have his hand in there, I was way bigger than him and I could’ve, you know, I could’ve grabbed him and jerked him out of his seat. But I never would have done that. You know, I kept saying that to them. So…he was slight,..."

Also, standing over someone is stronger than sitting below someone.

He was "slight," yet his face was portrayed as too thin in the sketch?  Maybe "slight" means small rather than thin?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Mitchell's hijacker descr'n)
Post by: EVickiW on October 24, 2014, 04:28:32 PM
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Mitchell says: 'In 1971 I was 6'2" and probably weighed 195 lbs. and in pretty good shape.' Mitchell was a young vigorous male/college student. Mitchell says after learning what was really going on with Cooper he thought: 'I could have overpowered him'. Key word is "overpowered" him. That puts Cooper as slighter in build, or maybe less physically dominant in presence and demeanor in Mitchell's assessment, especially if Mitchell and Cooper were similar in height. That's an interesting judgment if Mitchell wasn't just boasting as an after-thought?

..... What made Mitchell think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker ?

The following is out of Mitchell's intervue by the museum:

"I told the FBI, you know if I was walking down the aisle and I knew he didn’t…I knew what was going on, and he didn’t have his hand in there, I was way bigger than him and I could’ve, you know, I could’ve grabbed him and jerked him out of his seat. But I never would have done that. You know, I kept saying that to them. So…he was slight,..."

Also, standing over someone is stronger than sitting below someone.

He was "slight," yet his face was portrayed as too thin in the sketch?  Maybe "slight" means small rather than thin?

For information and review,  I attached Bill Mitchell's WSHM interview.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Mitchell's hijacker descr'n)
Post by: MarkBennett on October 24, 2014, 06:31:10 PM
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Mitchell says: 'In 1971 I was 6'2" and probably weighed 195 lbs. and in pretty good shape.' Mitchell was a young vigorous male/college student. Mitchell says after learning what was really going on with Cooper he thought: 'I could have overpowered him'. Key word is "overpowered" him. That puts Cooper as slighter in build, or maybe less physically dominant in presence and demeanor in Mitchell's assessment, especially if Mitchell and Cooper were similar in height. That's an interesting judgment if Mitchell wasn't just boasting as an after-thought?

..... What made Mitchell think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker ?

The following is out of Mitchell's intervue by the museum:

"I told the FBI, you know if I was walking down the aisle and I knew he didn’t…I knew what was going on, and he didn’t have his hand in there, I was way bigger than him and I could’ve, you know, I could’ve grabbed him and jerked him out of his seat. But I never would have done that. You know, I kept saying that to them. So…he was slight,..."

Also, standing over someone is stronger than sitting below someone.

He was "slight," yet his face was portrayed as too thin in the sketch?  Maybe "slight" means small rather than thin?

For information and review,  I attached Bill Mitchell's WSHM interview.

That's for posting.  One key word that I hadn't really thought about before was Mitchell calling DB Cooper "geeky".  That's interesting.   Have any of the named suspects previously mentioned by described that way?  I don't really think so.   I take that to mean slight build and a bit nerdy, but it's possible Mitchell was thinking of something else.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 24, 2014, 10:29:12 PM
Seems we have another Cooper suspect. anyone heard of this guy?

"Truman has been contacted by the FBI and says that he will supply them with any information they need to help with their 40 year old investigation. “I’m going to die soon. I don’t need to leave a big mystery behind me. Whatever information they need, I’ll do my best to give it to them,” he told news reporter Stephanie Whistler of KOCO.com located in Oklahoma City."

Story is here...http://ebuzzd.com/dying-man-really-d-b-cooper/

He would of been 40 years old in 1971........ :o


This story is a HOAX....ebuzzed.com has a history of hoax stories.....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 24, 2014, 11:24:18 PM
Doing a quick check around, I can't find anything on this guy? no records so far....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on October 25, 2014, 12:05:39 AM
The poster at DZ that put up that link now believes it to be a hoax....but it sure didn't take Jo long to try and connect Duane to the guy.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 25, 2014, 12:11:26 AM
I already started thinking that once I couldn't find anything on him, plus there is no date on the link.

That site was updated today....Information Updated: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 04:19:57 UTC
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 25, 2014, 12:28:59 AM
ebuzzed.com has a trail of hoax stories....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Mitchell's hijacker descr'n)
Post by: Shutter on October 25, 2014, 08:13:28 PM
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Mitchell says: 'In 1971 I was 6'2" and probably weighed 195 lbs. and in pretty good shape.' Mitchell was a young vigorous male/college student. Mitchell says after learning what was really going on with Cooper he thought: 'I could have overpowered him'. Key word is "overpowered" him. That puts Cooper as slighter in build, or maybe less physically dominant in presence and demeanor in Mitchell's assessment, especially if Mitchell and Cooper were similar in height. That's an interesting judgment if Mitchell wasn't just boasting as an after-thought?

..... What made Mitchell think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker ?

The following is out of Mitchell's intervue by the museum:

"I told the FBI, you know if I was walking down the aisle and I knew he didn’t…I knew what was going on, and he didn’t have his hand in there, I was way bigger than him and I could’ve, you know, I could’ve grabbed him and jerked him out of his seat. But I never would have done that. You know, I kept saying that to them. So…he was slight,..."

Also, standing over someone is stronger than sitting below someone.

He was "slight," yet his face was portrayed as too thin in the sketch?  Maybe "slight" means small rather than thin?

For information and review,  I attached Bill Mitchell's WSHM interview.

That's for posting.  One key word that I hadn't really thought about before was Mitchell calling DB Cooper "geeky".  That's interesting.   Have any of the named suspects previously mentioned by described that way?  I don't really think so.   I take that to mean slight build and a bit nerdy, but it's possible Mitchell was thinking of something else.

He also states something wrong with his clothing not matching or something like that. this could be proof of him purchasing clothing from a second hand store? I'm not sure how we can go from brown, to black, to Russet? perhaps nothing Cooper was wearing had anything to do with him personally.

I wonder what the tie clip was going for in the 70's? that's something I didn't check. I think I'll email the lady from Anson and see if she could answer this question.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Mitchell's hijacker descr'n)
Post by: georger on October 26, 2014, 02:50:34 AM
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Mitchell says: 'In 1971 I was 6'2" and probably weighed 195 lbs. and in pretty good shape.' Mitchell was a young vigorous male/college student. Mitchell says after learning what was really going on with Cooper he thought: 'I could have overpowered him'. Key word is "overpowered" him. That puts Cooper as slighter in build, or maybe less physically dominant in presence and demeanor in Mitchell's assessment, especially if Mitchell and Cooper were similar in height. That's an interesting judgment if Mitchell wasn't just boasting as an after-thought?

..... What made Mitchell think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker ?

The following is out of Mitchell's intervue by the museum:

"I told the FBI, you know if I was walking down the aisle and I knew he didn’t…I knew what was going on, and he didn’t have his hand in there, I was way bigger than him and I could’ve, you know, I could’ve grabbed him and jerked him out of his seat. But I never would have done that. You know, I kept saying that to them. So…he was slight,..."

Also, standing over someone is stronger than sitting below someone.

He was "slight," yet his face was portrayed as too thin in the sketch?  Maybe "slight" means small rather than thin?

For information and review,  I attached Bill Mitchell's WSHM interview.

That's for posting.  One key word that I hadn't really thought about before was Mitchell calling DB Cooper "geeky".  That's interesting.   Have any of the named suspects previously mentioned by described that way?  I don't really think so.   I take that to mean slight build and a bit nerdy, but it's possible Mitchell was thinking of something else.

He also states something wrong with his clothing not matching or something like that. this could be proof of him purchasing clothing from a second hand store? I'm not sure how we can go from brown, to black, to Russet? perhaps nothing Cooper was wearing had anything to do with him personally.

I wonder what the tie clip was going for in the 70's? that's something I didn't check. I think I'll email the lady from Anson and see if she could answer this question.

His dress allowed him to fit in like a common businessman, going home for the holiday. His reclusive non interacting demeanor had a few people wondering. Today alarm bells would go off!

Once on the plane and in his seat, the massive amount of attention being given him by a stewardess sent off an alarm bell in Mitchell, right across from him. Mitchell couldnt see any justifiable reason for all the attention being given one passenger - in the back of the plane. Mitchell knew something was going on ... he just couldn't identify the reason for all the attention being given one passenger which over time became a real issue for Mitchell.  Mitchell didn't do anything but he sure was wondering ...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 26, 2014, 03:11:50 AM
but how do we have color differences. could someone be color blind? brown and russet maybe, but black and russet?

These colors may not match the colors Cooper had, or allegedly had. monitors are different on computers, and different colors of Brown & russet can be found.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on October 26, 2014, 03:40:41 AM
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but how do we have color differences. could someone be color blind? brown and russet maybe, but black and russet?

These colors may not match the colors Cooper had, or allegedly had. monitors are different on computers, and different colors of Brown & russet can be found.

Pilot notes re- Tina's statement is: "He’s got black hair.   Wearing black rain coat. He is in his 50’s.  Black suit. Around 175 lbs  6’ 1".   Sitting row 18 in the middle seat very back of the aircraft!"
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 26, 2014, 03:49:53 AM
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but how do we have color differences. could someone be color blind? brown and russet maybe, but black and russet?

These colors may not match the colors Cooper had, or allegedly had. monitors are different on computers, and different colors of Brown & russet can be found.

Pilot notes re- Tina's statement is: "He’s got black hair.   Wearing black rain coat. He is in his 50’s.  Black suit. Around 175 lbs  6’ 1".   Sitting row 18 in the middle seat very back of the aircraft!"

Agreed, but they also said he was in his 50's in those notes. flo gives the description of a black suit, and Mitchell gives the Russet color. just pointing out what other witnesses have claimed. Tina spent more time with him than anyone else. I would rely on her description first, but we do have different views from all 3 of them.

I have there statements in the gallery under evidence. it's the first photo on the page for quick reference.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 26, 2014, 04:02:38 AM
(http://n467us.com/Photo%20Evidence_files/image028.jpg)

The notes about his description seem to be towards the beginning. could this be Flo's response. she had the first contact with him? she claims everything black while Tina states a brown suit with possibly thin black stripes. this also seems to be right after Flo describes the note given to her. perhaps they asked her at that point about his description? Tina gives the height from 5'10 - 6'. I believe she makes this claim since she sized him up while standing next to him. outside of the notes Flo gives 6' which is close to the crew notes of 6' 1"

The weight is consistent with Flo of 175 lbs matching her statement of 170-175 lbs. the notes state a black raincoat, and later one says, top coat, the other says overcoat.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Mitchell's hijacker descr'n)
Post by: EVickiW on October 26, 2014, 12:06:47 PM
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Mitchell says: 'In 1971 I was 6'2" and probably weighed 195 lbs. and in pretty good shape.' Mitchell was a young vigorous male/college student. Mitchell says after learning what was really going on with Cooper he thought: 'I could have overpowered him'. Key word is "overpowered" him. That puts Cooper as slighter in build, or maybe less physically dominant in presence and demeanor in Mitchell's assessment, especially if Mitchell and Cooper were similar in height. That's an interesting judgment if Mitchell wasn't just boasting as an after-thought?

..... What made Mitchell think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker ?

The following is out of Mitchell's intervue by the museum:

"I told the FBI, you know if I was walking down the aisle and I knew he didn’t…I knew what was going on, and he didn’t have his hand in there, I was way bigger than him and I could’ve, you know, I could’ve grabbed him and jerked him out of his seat. But I never would have done that. You know, I kept saying that to them. So…he was slight,..."

Also, standing over someone is stronger than sitting below someone.

He was "slight," yet his face was portrayed as too thin in the sketch?  Maybe "slight" means small rather than thin?

For information and review,  I attached Bill Mitchell's WSHM interview.

That's for posting.  One key word that I hadn't really thought about before was Mitchell calling DB Cooper "geeky".  That's interesting.   Have any of the named suspects previously mentioned by described that way?  I don't really think so.   I take that to mean slight build and a bit nerdy, but it's possible Mitchell was thinking of something else.

He also states something wrong with his clothing not matching or something like that. this could be proof of him purchasing clothing from a second hand store? I'm not sure how we can go from brown, to black, to Russet? perhaps nothing Cooper was wearing had anything to do with him personally.

I wonder what the tie clip was going for in the 70's? that's something I didn't check. I think I'll email the lady from Anson and see if she could answer this question.

His dress allowed him to fit in like a common businessman, going home for the holiday. His reclusive non interacting demeanor had a few people wondering. Today alarm bells would go off!

Once on the plane and in his seat, the massive amount of attention being given him by a stewardess sent off an alarm bell in Mitchell, right across from him. Mitchell couldnt see any justifiable reason for all the attention being given one passenger - in the back of the plane. Mitchell knew something was going on ... he just couldn't identify the reason for all the attention being given one passenger which over time became a real issue for Mitchell.  Mitchell didn't do anything but he sure was wondering ...

In addition to Tina's statements of "all black" we have Hal Williams, the ticket agent at the gate, giving the same information.

Hal Williams also backs up Bill Mitchell's recollection of Cooper and also finds discrepancies in the FBI's sketch. From the attached article: "The composite drawings never did look just like him. The chin was a bit thin and the hair was not quite right"
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 26, 2014, 02:42:38 PM
are we sure Tina made the statement of all black? look at my post above, and then read the notes, and then ending with the descriptions Tina & Flo gave. there descriptions can be found in the gallery under "evidence" the first photo.

Is the descriptions from Alice anywhere to be found?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (HJ descrn)
Post by: hom on October 26, 2014, 03:35:16 PM
Lighting in a plane isn't like being out in the sun.  AND, it was a dark day.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (HJ descrn)
Post by: Shutter on October 26, 2014, 03:40:27 PM
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Lighting in a plane isn't like being out in the sun.  AND, it was a dark day.

Agreed, I'm just trying to figure out how Mitchell claims Russet. that's hard to match up against black....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (HJ descrn)
Post by: hom on October 26, 2014, 04:12:39 PM
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Agreed, I'm just trying to figure out how Mitchell claims Russet. that's hard to match up against black....

Per wikipedia:  "Russet is a dark brown color with a reddish-orange tinge." (emphasis added)  Your image doesn't look dark to me.  I've attached a color matching the RGB specified in wikipedia.  Try looking at the color in dim light.

Also, I recall having seen long ago materials that shimmered black and red and black and blue.  Maybe something like that?  I don't remember when that was common.



Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (HJ descrn)
Post by: Shutter on October 26, 2014, 04:23:43 PM
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Agreed, I'm just trying to figure out how Mitchell claims Russet. that's hard to match up against black....

Per wikipedia:  "Russet is a dark brown color with a reddish-orange tinge." (emphasis added)  Your image doesn't look dark to me.  I've attached a color matching the RGB specified in wikipedia.  Try looking at the color in dim light.

Also, I recall having seen long ago materials that shimmered black and red and black and blue.  Maybe something like that?  I don't remember when that was common.

Russet still has a problem with black, but then again.black and brown seems to blend here as well. one said black, the other said brown w/black stripes. I don't believe the color really matters, but it appears to have different views with all 3 of the witnesses on what the exact color truly was?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 26, 2014, 04:38:03 PM
That could be Russet Brown you have?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (HJ descrn)
Post by: EVickiW on October 26, 2014, 04:42:53 PM
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Lighting in a plane isn't like being out in the sun.  AND, it was a dark day.

Agreed, I'm just trying to figure out how Mitchell claims Russet. that's hard to match up against black....

Russet was a description from the paint store owner, Robert Gregory.

From the Citizen Sleuths website: Gregory also characterized Cooper's hair as "Jet black, greasy, patent leather sheen. Combed straight back with a slight angle to the right and a slight part to the left." According to the 302's in the FBI Archive, Gregory remarked on Cooper's clothing as "Unusual colored suit coat, possibly a reddish brown or russet color; wide lapels. Shirt - neutral color. Tie - contrasting, medium to dark color."

http://www.citizensleuths.com/cooperimages.html
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 26, 2014, 04:55:02 PM
Ok, I must of been thinking of Mitchell said it since we started the conversation with him. thanks for clearing that up.

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (HJ descrn)
Post by: hom on October 26, 2014, 05:30:43 PM
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Russet still has a problem with black, but then again.black and brown seems to blend here as well. one said black, the other said brown w/black stripes. I don't believe the color really matters, but it appears to have different views with all 3 of the witnesses on what the exact color truly was?

Perception and identification of color depends upon light level and character.  There is no way of evaluating color accounts of witnesses on the plane without duplicating the lighting in the plane.  Don't go by what the colors look like in your own environment.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on October 26, 2014, 09:45:42 PM
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are we sure Tina made the statement of all black? look at my post above, and then read the notes, and then ending with the descriptions Tina & Flo gave. there descriptions can be found in the gallery under "evidence" the first photo.

Is the descriptions from Alice anywhere to be found?

Tina and Flo's description of Cooper according to Sluggo's website: http://n467us.com/The%20Facts%20and%20the%20Myths.htm

Descriptions of Cooper:

Mucklow
"W/M, mid 40's, 5-10" 6', 180 to 190, med to dark complexion, medium build, dark straight hair with narrow sideburns to mid ear parted and combed back, dark plastic wrap-around sunglasses, dark top coat, dark brown suit possibly with a thin black stripe, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not the tie type, he had a low voice with no accent, she did not see scars, marks or tattoos, the man did not have on any jewelry she could see."

Schaffner
"W/M, mid 40's, 6', 170-175, average build, brown eyes, straight black hair medium length and parted on the left side, olive skin, black business suit, white shirt, thin black tie, black overcoat, black shoes, black briefcase, dark framed sunglasses with brown lenses, no scars marks or tattoos, he had a normal calm voice and appeared to be of Latin descent."
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 26, 2014, 10:03:11 PM
Correct, as you can see it's Flo who claims he was all in black. that's why I think the notes are in reference to Flo's description, and not Tina?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on October 26, 2014, 10:09:31 PM
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Correct, as you can see it's Flo who claims he was all in black. that's why I think the notes are in reference to Flo's description, and not Tina?

Yep...That is why I posted the descriptions.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on October 26, 2014, 11:58:39 PM
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are we sure Tina made the statement of all black? look at my post above, and then read the notes, and then ending with the descriptions Tina & Flo gave. there descriptions can be found in the gallery under "evidence" the first photo.

Is the descriptions from Alice anywhere to be found?


Tina and Flo's description of Cooper according to Sluggo's website: http://n467us.com/The%20Facts%20and%20the%20Myths.htm

Descriptions of Cooper:

Mucklow
"W/M, mid 40's, 5-10" 6', 180 to 190, med to dark complexion, medium build, dark straight hair with narrow sideburns to mid ear parted and combed back, dark plastic wrap-around sunglasses, dark top coat, dark brown suit possibly with a thin black stripe, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not the tie type, he had a low voice with no accent, she did not see scars, marks or tattoos, the man did not have on any jewelry she could see."

Schaffner
"W/M, mid 40's, 6', 170-175, average build, brown eyes, straight black hair medium length and parted on the left side, olive skin, black business suit, white shirt, thin black tie, black overcoat, black shoes, black briefcase, dark framed sunglasses with brown lenses, no scars marks or tattoos, he had a normal calm voice and appeared to be of Latin descent."

'appeared to be of Latin descent' ... interesting. There's that possible Cuba connection again ???
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on October 27, 2014, 11:22:30 PM
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(http://huntfordbcooper.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/newcoopersketch-223x300.jpg)

This is directly from Gray's website....

Over the years, there have been many D.B. Cooper sketches. There’s the Bing Crosby sketch, released shortly after the hijacking; the one that followed that; the aged depiction of Cooper; all are different in their own ways, have merit in their own ways, and were based on the recollection of three witnesses: Stewardesses Tina Mucklow, Florence Schaffner, and Alice Hancock, who worked in first class.

One witness, however, that was not interviewed by Bureau artists was Robert Gregory, owner of a paint company in Seattle, who sat directly across from the hijacker in row 18. While stewardesses Mucklow and Schaffner were closest to the hijacker and Mucklow spent the longest time with him, Gregory was the most detailed and specific in his observations, according to the Bureau case files.

For instance, Gregory noticed the sunglasses the hijacker was wearing had “horned-rims” and the suit jacket the hijacker was wearing had “wide lapels.” Working with paints, Gregory was likely an expert in picking out colors. According to the Cooper case files, Gregory believed the hijacker’s suit was not black or brown as had been suggested, but was a different shade entirely: “russet.”

Most critically, Gregory described the hijacker’s hair in a very specific way: “Marcelled,” an old French style of creating curls with hot irons. The observation of “marcelled” hair is critical in the case because stewardesses’ Mucklow and Schaffner described the hijacker’s hair as straight. There was one witness though who did back up Gregory’s claim of curly hair: Alice Hancock, the first class stew, who described the hijacker’s hair as “wavy.”

Attached is a new sketch of the hijacker, the “Gregory” sketch, designed as a supplement to the other Cooper sketches out there, and composed by the talented illustrator John Burgoyne. To read more about the sketch and recent Cooper news,

Well...I did it. I contacted William Mitchell. I sent a letter USPS on October 3, 2014. He sent me an email on October 8, 2014 as a response to my letter.
I attached a Word Document with part of our email exchange.

What I found interesting is his comments about his memories of the likeliness of the hijacker compared to the FBI composite sketch. He thought the sketch portrayed the hijacker's face too thin.

Concerning my father:
He found that my fathers facial features were more consistent to what he remembers.
He had hesitations about the size of my father in the video from 1970 (the lake shot) and thought Mel was too big, but
according to Unsolved Mysteries episode, my father was 6' and 180 lbs at the time of his disappearance on September 15. 1971.

What interests me is Mitchell's 'sense' of sizing Cooper up - Mitchell says: 'In 1971 I was 6'2" and probably weighed 195 lbs. and in pretty good shape.' Mitchell was a young vigorous male/college student. Mitchell says after learning what was really going on with Cooper he thought: 'I could have overpowered him'. Key word is "overpowered" him. That puts Cooper as slighter in build, or maybe less physically dominant in presence and demeanor in Mitchell's assessment, especially if Mitchell and Cooper were similar in height. That's an interesting judgment if Mitchell wasn't just boasting as an after-thought?

You might ask Mitchell what specifically made him think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker. If it was a physical comparison or an overall general appraisal of the hijacker including his age, compared to the younger Mitchell himself. Ask Mitchell if he was a wrestler or in athletics as a college student, or had been in high school, or if Mitchell was going through any military training like ROTC in college etc? What made Mitchell think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker ?
 


I emailed Bill Mitchell and asked him your questions above in bold. Here is his response:

When asked directly by the FBI if I thought I could have  “done” something to the hijacker if I would have known the situation. (bomb, etc etc)  I told them I thought I could have (but I said I never would have tried).  Anyway in 1971 I was 6’2” and probably 195 lbs.  I played football, basketball and track in high school.  Probably would have played football in college except for an injury.  So yes I thought I could have overpowered him.  I was in the middle seat on the left and Tina was in the aisle seat on the right with D.B. in the middle and there was a brief case in the window seat that I remember and he had his hand in and out of the brief case.  I thought I could have timed it so when his hand was out of the brief case (i.e lighting up another cigarette) I could have jumped him and either jerked him out or overpowered him.

and he continues with:

One other point that could play a part in my thoughts about over powering him..  As I told Richard Tosaw in his book “D.B. Cooper Dead or Alive”, I was a 20 year old college sophomore and I really couldn’t understand why this Flight Attendant was paying so much attention to this older guy with a white shirt and clip on tie!  So there could a little bit of ego involved!!!
 
Hope this helps

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 27, 2014, 11:33:36 PM
Quote
So there could a little bit of ego involved!!!

I believe my response was "young & cocky"  8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on October 27, 2014, 11:44:49 PM
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(http://huntfordbcooper.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/newcoopersketch-223x300.jpg)

This is directly from Gray's website....

Over the years, there have been many D.B. Cooper sketches. There’s the Bing Crosby sketch, released shortly after the hijacking; the one that followed that; the aged depiction of Cooper; all are different in their own ways, have merit in their own ways, and were based on the recollection of three witnesses: Stewardesses Tina Mucklow, Florence Schaffner, and Alice Hancock, who worked in first class.

One witness, however, that was not interviewed by Bureau artists was Robert Gregory, owner of a paint company in Seattle, who sat directly across from the hijacker in row 18. While stewardesses Mucklow and Schaffner were closest to the hijacker and Mucklow spent the longest time with him, Gregory was the most detailed and specific in his observations, according to the Bureau case files.

For instance, Gregory noticed the sunglasses the hijacker was wearing had “horned-rims” and the suit jacket the hijacker was wearing had “wide lapels.” Working with paints, Gregory was likely an expert in picking out colors. According to the Cooper case files, Gregory believed the hijacker’s suit was not black or brown as had been suggested, but was a different shade entirely: “russet.”

Most critically, Gregory described the hijacker’s hair in a very specific way: “Marcelled,” an old French style of creating curls with hot irons. The observation of “marcelled” hair is critical in the case because stewardesses’ Mucklow and Schaffner described the hijacker’s hair as straight. There was one witness though who did back up Gregory’s claim of curly hair: Alice Hancock, the first class stew, who described the hijacker’s hair as “wavy.”

Attached is a new sketch of the hijacker, the “Gregory” sketch, designed as a supplement to the other Cooper sketches out there, and composed by the talented illustrator John Burgoyne. To read more about the sketch and recent Cooper news,

Well...I did it. I contacted William Mitchell. I sent a letter USPS on October 3, 2014. He sent me an email on October 8, 2014 as a response to my letter.
I attached a Word Document with part of our email exchange.

What I found interesting is his comments about his memories of the likeliness of the hijacker compared to the FBI composite sketch. He thought the sketch portrayed the hijacker's face too thin.

Concerning my father:
He found that my fathers facial features were more consistent to what he remembers.
He had hesitations about the size of my father in the video from 1970 (the lake shot) and thought Mel was too big, but
according to Unsolved Mysteries episode, my father was 6' and 180 lbs at the time of his disappearance on September 15. 1971.

What interests me is Mitchell's 'sense' of sizing Cooper up - Mitchell says: 'In 1971 I was 6'2" and probably weighed 195 lbs. and in pretty good shape.' Mitchell was a young vigorous male/college student. Mitchell says after learning what was really going on with Cooper he thought: 'I could have overpowered him'. Key word is "overpowered" him. That puts Cooper as slighter in build, or maybe less physically dominant in presence and demeanor in Mitchell's assessment, especially if Mitchell and Cooper were similar in height. That's an interesting judgment if Mitchell wasn't just boasting as an after-thought?

You might ask Mitchell what specifically made him think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker. If it was a physical comparison or an overall general appraisal of the hijacker including his age, compared to the younger Mitchell himself. Ask Mitchell if he was a wrestler or in athletics as a college student, or had been in high school, or if Mitchell was going through any military training like ROTC in college etc? What made Mitchell think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker ?
 


I emailed Bill Mitchell and asked him your questions above in bold. Here is his response:

When asked directly by the FBI if I thought I could have  “done” something to the hijacker if I would have known the situation. (bomb, etc etc)  I told them I thought I could have (but I said I never would have tried).  Anyway in 1971 I was 6’2” and probably 195 lbs.  I played football, basketball and track in high school.  Probably would have played football in college except for an injury.  So yes I thought I could have overpowered him.  I was in the middle seat on the left and Tina was in the aisle seat on the right with D.B. in the middle and there was a brief case in the window seat that I remember and he had his hand in and out of the brief case.  I thought I could have timed it so when his hand was out of the brief case (i.e lighting up another cigarette) I could have jumped him and either jerked him out or overpowered him.

and he continues with:

One other point that could play a part in my thoughts about over powering him..  As I told Richard Tosaw in his book “D.B. Cooper Dead or Alive”, I was a 20 year old college sophomore and I really couldn’t understand why this Flight Attendant was paying so much attention to this older guy with a white shirt and clip on tie!  So there could a little bit of ego involved!!!
 
Hope this helps


Thanks Vicki .

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 21, 2014, 12:06:45 AM
Russet-colored suit, marcelled hair, Geoffrey Gray and Robert Gregory:

I think a bit more thought needs to go into assessing the primary source of the russet suit and marcelled hair bit. Specifically, who is Robert Gregory and what did he actually see?

Robert Gregory is deceased, but his nephew came to the 2013 Symposium in Tacoma. He said "Uncle Bob" loved to talk about the skyjacking and told lots of stories. However, I asked the nephew if Uncle Bob ever told the family where he was sitting on 305, and the guy said "Not to my knowledge."

As far as I know, Robert Gregory was sitting in the forward part of the aircraft and never was close to DB Cooper. Yes, he would have walked passed Cooper while entering the plane since all the passengers came up the stairway and then sat in open sitting.  Bill Mitchell said he came on early and DB Cooper was an early arrival as well, and took the seat nearest the stairs - Row 18.

But Gregory sat further forward in the early stages of the flight, and certainly was far forward of Cooper when the FA had everyone move up. Hence, Gregory's view of DB Cooper was modest, at best. Also, the widespread feeling was that no one knew they were being hijacked, so there was no particular reason to memorize the appearances of the other passengers.

It is my further understanding that Robert Gregory was not one of the five passengers who talked with the FBI immediately after deplaning in Seattle when the Bureau asked for volunteers to tell them who had a good look at the guy in Row 18. I forget who told me who the five were (Farflung?), but Bill Mitchell was one and I think Labissoniere was another.

As a result, Robert Gregory and his memories are late to the party.

Also, Gregory's additional comments are askew. Gregory says Cooper was 5'8" and mid-30s. No one else describes as such, and Gregory must be consider an outlier, even if he is correct.

Regarding Geoffrey Gray, he is certainly a big fan of Robert Gregory.  The compelling question is why.

One reason may be that GG found a tasty tidbit in the FBI's files about Gregory's claims, except that the agent doing the documenting mixed-up Robert Gregory with Bill Mitchell, and had Gregory sitting in Row 18, seat B.

Why GG didn't see this glaring discrepancy is up for discussion, but I find it very troubling. Particularly since GG is running so hard with the Robert Gregory scenarios, especially the marcelled hair and russet-colored suit.

It's goofs like this that lead me to wonder if GG is be part of the FBI's Norjak obfuscation campaign.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on November 21, 2014, 12:48:33 AM
I believe that either Himmelsbach or Tosaw wrote in their book that Cooper was the last, or next to last, person to board the aircraft.  And in the waiting room, Cooper reportedly stood off by himself and didn't mix with the other passengers.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on November 21, 2014, 02:23:26 AM
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I believe that either Himmelsbach or Tosaw wrote in their book that Cooper was the last, or next to last, person to board the aircraft.  And in the waiting room, Cooper reportedly stood off by himself and didn't mix with the other passengers.

That's what I thought too!  So, if Cooper is the last or near the last, and Gregory is among the first, how does Gregory pass Cooper who is still at the end of the line and goes into the rear lavatory before taking his seat, boarding?   ::)  Will Cirque du Soleil do it! ?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 21, 2014, 03:01:17 AM
Yup, I remember reading that DBC stood off by himself and was one of the last to board.  But Mitchell told the WHSM something a little different, again as I recall off the top of my head.

Bottom line: Uncle Bob ain't too credible.

That said, I'm sure he was a great storyteller!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on November 22, 2014, 11:10:04 AM
Bruce Smith  Something to think about!

The Four Letters sent to the newspapers following Norjak should be discussed more as I think the FBI are disregarding these letters as not from DB Cooper which is a conclusion that fits the FBI conclusion that DB died in the jump and could not have written the Four Letters.

I just want to say that the letters make a lot of sense to me that they are from DB Cooper and they show that DB survived the jump. If the letters were a hoax as the FBI must believe, there would not have been four sent from four different locations but probably just one letter. Also, the third letter had the salutation  "The System That Beat The System" which was the mantra used by Sheridan Peterson during the month he lived at my home. That salutation proved to me it really was Sheridan and that he survived the jump. Those letters were no hoax and the places that they were sent from fit the places that Sheridan would have visited.

Just a thought of why the FBI did not obtain the DNA from under the stamps and envelope flaps of the four letters. What a shame for the "Smoking Gun" evidence to go not looked at for all these years. I would have thought the FBI to be smarter that that.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 22, 2014, 11:33:44 AM
How much can one actually change the description of Cooper? Agent Larry Carr made a comment about trying to change the height of Cooper.

"No matter how much someone wants to put DB Cooper's height at 5'8" will never change the fact he was reported to be 6'. You can certainly say it's so but you have to have articulable fact to support the dismissal of the witnesses credibility. But if you discredit the witness on one piece of her statement you may have to discredit all, you can't have it both ways."

"Under the "trust no I-witness" philosophy, there is no base of fact to go from, maybe he was actually a she? Where do you stop? there has to be a baseline of fact, you simply cannot conduct an effective investigation if every human being is a suspect."

"There is the key difference, "it happened so fast" Not the same in the Cooper case. Mucklow spent almost five hours with Cooper, I think she could have got the base physical indentifiers correct, especially when the others reported almost the same."

Mucklow "W/M, mid 40's, 5-10" 6', 180 to 190, med to dark complexion, medium build, dark straight hair with narrow sideburns to mid ear parted and combed back, dark plastic wrap-around sunglasses, dark top coat, dark brown suit possibly with a thin black stripe, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not the tie type, he had a low voice with no accent, she did not see scars, marks or tattoos, the man did not have on any jewerly she could see."

Schaffner "W/M, mid 40's, 6', 170-175, average build, brown eyes, straight black hair medium length and parted on the left side, olive skin, black business suit, white shirt, thin black tie, black.

I'm looking for Carr's comment about descriptions. I'll post it as soon as I find it.





Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on November 22, 2014, 12:33:45 PM
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How much can one actually change the description of Cooper? Agent Larry Carr made a comment about trying to change the height of Cooper.

"No matter how much someone wants to put DB Cooper's height at 5'8" will never change the fact he was reported to be 6'. You can certainly say it's so but you have to have articulable fact to support the dismissal of the witnesses credibility. But if you discredit the witness on one piece of her statement you may have to discredit all, you can't have
it both ways."

"Under the "trust no I-witness" philosophy, there is no base of fact to go from, maybe he was actually a she? Where do you stop? there has to be a baseline of fact, you simply cannot conduct an effective investigation if every human being is a suspect."

"There is the key difference, "it happened so fast" Not the same in the Cooper case. Mucklow spent almost five hours with Cooper, I think she could have got the base physical indentifiers correct, especially when the others reported almost the same."

Mucklow "W/M, mid 40's, 5-10" 6', 180 to 190, med to dark complexion, medium build, dark straight hair with narrow sideburns to mid ear parted and combed back, dark plastic wrap-around sunglasses, dark top coat, dark brown suit possibly with a thin black stripe, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not the tie type, he had a low voice with no accent, she did not see scars, marks or tattoos, the man did not have on any jewerly she could see."

Schaffner "W/M, mid 40's, 6', 170-175, average build, brown eyes, straight black hair medium length and parted on the left side, olive skin, black business suit, white shirt, thin black tie, black.

I'm looking for Carr's comment about descriptions. I'll post it as soon as I find it.

'Questioning the description' has become a cult-religion over at Dropzone. The Whiplash Twins are in full charge of Dropzone. And this is no Moderate thing, but extremist at its core. Let's be clear about this! Theirs is no polite discussion with manners about descriptions or anything else. "Descriptions" is just one phase of the attack against reality. This is a subversive plot to undermine the very foundations of reality. Sangiro and Messo and Quade have given these cultists the power to actually perma-ban people if they don't cooperate in this agenda! There are numerous examples of that including SA Larry Carr! They could now require that Cooper had a cat, if they wanted to. And people on these forums would produce pages on that too ! The whole thing has become an insidious cottage illness with no other purpose than to pay homage to the personal attacks being dispensed by the Whiplash Twins. It's one thing to talk about descriptions, it's another thing to continue to talk about it for years as if Cooper really did carry a cat on board which sat in his lap and went out the door with him at 5' 8"  !   :)     
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 22, 2014, 12:47:41 PM
Agreed, but this applies to all that try and maneuver around certain points in the official description. as Carr explained "you simply cannot conduct an effective investigation if every human being is a suspect."

Descriptions can be wrong. I'm not doubting that, but this seems to be entirely different from common crimes where the witness didn't have long to identify the suspect. we can clearly see this in the reports from the passengers.

Basic guidelines must protect the description from disruption, or contamination that opens the door to hundreds more suspects now fitting the "new description" Carr quotes again much as I do "where does one draw the line"

I'm always game for exploring new suspects, but you drop the odds considerably if you breach the description of this suspect. that's how I view it. perhaps others don't.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 22, 2014, 01:27:22 PM
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Agreed, but this applies to all that try and maneuver around certain points in the official description. as Carr explained "you simply cannot conduct an effective investigation if every human being is a suspect."

Descriptions can be wrong. I'm not doubting that, but this seems to be entirely different from common crimes where the witness didn't have long to identify the suspect. we can clearly see this in the reports from the passengers.

Basic guidelines must protect the description from disruption, or contamination that opens the door to hundreds more suspects now fitting the "new description" Carr quotes again much as I do "where does one draw the line"

I'm always game for exploring new suspects, but you drop the odds considerably if you breach the description of this suspect. that's how I view it. perhaps others don't.

The problem is that this late in the game, there aren't any suspects out there that fit that FBI description that haven't been ruled out.  Either one  or more of the eyewitness descriptions are wrong, or we haven't seen the right person yet.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on November 22, 2014, 01:30:38 PM
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Agreed, but this applies to all that try and maneuver around certain points in the official description. as Carr explained "you simply cannot conduct an effective investigation if every human being is a suspect."

Descriptions can be wrong. I'm not doubting that, but this seems to be entirely different from common crimes where the witness didn't have long to identify the suspect. we can clearly see this in the reports from the passengers.

Basic guidelines must protect the description from disruption, or contamination that opens the door to hundreds more suspects now fitting the "new description" Carr quotes again much as I do "where does one draw the line"

I'm always game for exploring new suspects, but you drop the odds considerably if you breach the description of this suspect. that's how I view it. perhaps others don't.

People always go through the doorway of "the descriptions could be wrong" to get where they are going anyway. Better they could be honest about it and just say: "I'm going to push Kenny or Duane as DB Cooper, and descriptions and nothing else matters. And if you get in my way I will just torment you and get rid of you by one means or another because I have Sangiro, Messo, Amazon, and Quade on my side so quite literally "F&*K you!".

The socalled 'manners' are a charade. The end is always the same at Dropzone. (I knew that after being there only a day years ago before Blevins even arrived! )  :)



   
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on November 22, 2014, 01:31:42 PM
I agree.  Tina described Cooper's socks?  That tells me she just didn't remember these things because she was with him for five hours, but she made a specific effort to make note of everything about him.  I always wonder when she got off the plane in Seattle to retrieve the money if the FBI gave her a list of items to check.  If that's the case, her description would be dead on.  She might be a little off, but the chances of DB Cooper being 5'8", white and bald requires a huge leap of faith.

It's too bad Tina hasn't talked more about it over the years.  Both Mitchell and Flo have said they don't believe the drawing really captured what Cooper looked like.  Flo's description had a large widows peak.  But then, I'm not sure what the witnesses said about the drawing in 1971 vs what they say now.  Time has a tendency to alter memories.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on November 22, 2014, 01:32:35 PM
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Agreed, but this applies to all that try and maneuver around certain points in the official description. as Carr explained "you simply cannot conduct an effective investigation if every human being is a suspect."

Descriptions can be wrong. I'm not doubting that, but this seems to be entirely different from common crimes where the witness didn't have long to identify the suspect. we can clearly see this in the reports from the passengers.

Basic guidelines must protect the description from disruption, or contamination that opens the door to hundreds more suspects now fitting the "new description" Carr quotes again much as I do "where does one draw the line"

I'm always game for exploring new suspects, but you drop the odds considerably if you breach the description of this suspect. that's how I view it. perhaps others don't.

The problem is that this late in the game, there aren't any suspects out there that fit that FBI description that haven't been ruled out.  Either one  or more of the eyewitness descriptions are wrong, or we haven't seen the right person yet.

And how precisely do YOU know that!?  Do you have a photo and description of every person the FBI has looked at? Show us.

 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 22, 2014, 01:39:25 PM
Quote
or we haven't seen the right person yet

That kinda sums it up right there.

It's impossible to conclude we have run out of suspects? especially if, as you mentioned he might not of been found yet? nobody even knows if Cooper was from this Country. there is a guy I think you should try and contact. he is on this forum. his name is Jerry Thomas. he might agree to give you some help in trying to submit your suspect. you have nothing to lose.

I think I posted it on here. they found an old lady in her apartment that had been there for years. so, I don't really think it's uncommon for someone to disappear unnoticed.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 22, 2014, 02:03:58 PM
"Despite numerous tenants` actions, who noticed nobody was using the flat in 1970, as well as the city services, which requested the apartment to be broken into and examined, nobody reacted to their pleas for nearly four decades."

Rest of the story can be found here.

http://dalje.com/en-croatia/dead-body-lies-in-bed-for-41-years/148109
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 22, 2014, 04:27:09 PM
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Agreed, but this applies to all that try and maneuver around certain points in the official description. as Carr explained "you simply cannot conduct an effective investigation if every human being is a suspect."

Descriptions can be wrong. I'm not doubting that, but this seems to be entirely different from common crimes where the witness didn't have long to identify the suspect. we can clearly see this in the reports from the passengers.

Basic guidelines must protect the description from disruption, or contamination that opens the door to hundreds more suspects now fitting the "new description" Carr quotes again much as I do "where does one draw the line"

I'm always game for exploring new suspects, but you drop the odds considerably if you breach the description of this suspect. that's how I view it. perhaps others don't.

The problem is that this late in the game, there aren't any suspects out there that fit that FBI description that haven't been ruled out.  Either one  or more of the eyewitness descriptions are wrong, or we haven't seen the right person yet.

Whoa, Nimi-Wrecks; to say that there are not any more suspects out there is paintin' with a pretty broad brush. I say the pool of candidates from the military is vast and very difficult to access.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 22, 2014, 06:19:09 PM
Provigil

Anybody ever heard of the pharmaceutical drug called "Provigil?"

Apparently it was developed to treat sleep disorders, but now is found to keep people awake with higher doses for very long periods of time, such as up to two weeks without sleeping. Rumors claim it is used in the military because it makes people hyper-aware and capable of processing a lot of facts quickly. Would seem to be ideal for SOG troopers and special ops.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on November 22, 2014, 07:31:22 PM
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Provigil

Anybody ever heard of the pharmaceutical drug called "Provigil?"

Apparently it was developed to treat sleep disorders, but now is found to keep people awake with higher doses for very long periods of time, such as up to two weeks without sleeping. Rumors claim it is used in the military because it makes people hyper-aware and capable of processing a lot of facts quickly. Would seem to be ideal for SOG troopers and special ops.

Cooper reportedly told Tina that he had some pills to keep the cockpit crew, and presumably Tina and himself, awake if they needed them.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 22, 2014, 08:09:08 PM
I'm looking for Carr's comment about descriptions. I'll post it as soon as I find it.

This what I was referring to with descriptions.


"Folly of physical description." I don't recall who brought this up but I do recall the post. The work that has been conducted on eye witness identification has focused from the traditional aspect of violent crime. A fleeting encounter with a subject who is committing a crime that last less than a minute.

For example, a typical bank robbery (my area of focus) lasts 20 seconds or less. The robber approaches, passes his demand note to the teller, the teller reads, complies and the robber runs out of the bank.

In this situation the tellers get the description wrong most of the time. Not absolutely wrong, but wrong enough that sometimes I can't find on the video the person they described.

The Cooper case was nothing like this. Every person who had contact with Cooper described him consistently. The two individuals who had the most contact with him were separated for the flight, so they had little chance to get together and discuss Cooper. Schaffner got off the plane in Seattle, Mucklow in Reno, both were interviewed that night and gave consistent descriptions.

They described the situation as calm and Cooper as calm, quiet and polite. In fact, Tina described joking with Cooper towards the end of the flight and Schaffner described him as child like. In other words no trauma that would taint the description.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 22, 2014, 08:59:34 PM
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Provigil

Anybody ever heard of the pharmaceutical drug called "Provigil?"

Apparently it was developed to treat sleep disorders, but now is found to keep people awake with higher doses for very long periods of time, such as up to two weeks without sleeping. Rumors claim it is used in the military because it makes people hyper-aware and capable of processing a lot of facts quickly. Would seem to be ideal for SOG troopers and special ops.

Cooper reportedly told Tina that he had some pills to keep the cockpit crew, and presumably Tina and himself, awake if they needed them.


One report has Cooper calling them "Bennies," and another simply says "amphetamines." Tosaw, Gray, I believe.

What I hear about Provigil is that it is a much more dynamic drug - stay awake much longer, stay more mentally alert, and also risk lots of hallucinations and delusional thinking. I'm just wondering how it might play a role in SOG operations, and possibly in Norjak...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 22, 2014, 09:01:45 PM
Ralph Hatley (RH-2), Sail, and me:

Sail and I are going to visit Ralph Hatley soon in Eagle Creek, Oregon. We're making plans this weekend.

However, it has become clear to me that some of the previous information of Ralph we had gleaned in the past has been lost, perhaps in the heady glee of anticipation of Jo's Big Announcement.

So, I thought it might be useful to re-post my phone interview with RH-2 from last August. What I find most interesting is Hatley's deep friendship with Earl Cossey and RH-2's authoritative and absolute assuredness of some of the dynamics of the Cooper case. In particular, RH-2 holds that DB Cooper knew what the hell he was doing and was not a jerk who got himself killed.

*******

I spoke with Ralph Hatley today, Monday, August 25, 2014.

Ralph is a noted, long-time skydiver and owner of a DZ in Eagle Creek, Oregon. He is very familiar with the DB Cooper skyjacking and knows many of the principals in the case. Here are the highlights of the conversation.

“Yes, Earl Cossey and I were good friends,” he told me straightaway. “We made many jumps together.”

Ralph is a no-nonsense kind of guy so I got right to the point about Coss.

“What do you think about his murder?” I asked.

“I think he caught a guy burglarizing his house,” Ralph replied.

“Do you think his murder had anything to do with the DB Cooper case?”

“Absolutely not,” Ralph said, and he began a long soliloquy about Earl Cossey, the rigger and controversial technical expert for the FBI in the Norjak case.

Ralph said that he knew Cossey “quite well,” and they had many conversations about DB Cooper. Essentially, they both felt that Cooper made it to the ground successfully, so much so that he was able to truck out of the woods with all of his gear. Hatley said that he and Cooper never doubted that Cooper had made it, and he stated that all “real” skydivers felt the same.

“Cossey told me the FBI were just a bunch of idiots,” Ralph said, “But a few of them were decent, such as Ralph Himmelsbach, who is a personal friend of mine.

Ralph Hatley continued and said that he had told Ralph Himmelsbach (RH-1) that many of his Norjak theories were “far-fetched,” especially the notion that DB Cooper died in the jump because he was an inexperienced skydiver.

Hatley laughed loud and long when I asked him about DB Cooper, although I wasn't sure why. Nevertheless, Hatley launched another commentary on the skyjacking.

“The night of the skyjacking I was contacted by the feds,” said Hatley. “’Ralph,’ they said, do you know a skydiver named Dan Cooper?’”

“’Sure,” I told them. He’s a guy from Moses Lake.’”
RH-2 said that the feds didn't quite believed him and thought that Cooper died in his getaway, or was too afraid to leave his airplane.

“I was laughing my ass off when the aircraft landed in Reno, sparks flying, and they couldn't find the skyjacker,” said Hatley.

At this point I challenged Ralph about the many statements Earl Cossey made to the media, including during several interviews with me that DB Cooper was an incompetent “no-pull” who cratered into the ground on his getaway jump.

“Bullshit!” Ralph roared. “We all knew that the perpetrator made it.”

In further discussion, Hatley adamantly claimed that Cossey believed DB Cooper made a successful jump.

Along those lines, Hatley said that DB Cooper “had some knowledge.” He said the skyjacking was “well-planned”

“Cooper picked a parachute that was not a regular skydiving parachute. He picked an NB-8 or an NB-6, whatever, and that was smart because it had a rigging card and a rigger’s packing pin, so he knew the chute hadn’t been opened and tracking devices put inside.”

At this point, Ralph became very coy and challenged me to study the flight path and call him after I had a precise understanding of the details. After much prodding, Ralph relented and told me that he felt DB Cooper jumped over Battleground WA, and this location was very fortuitous because it contained a DZ that was owned by Ralph.

“I knew the area very well. I’d made a couple thousand jumps in that area, and I could do it under the same conditions and they’d never find me either.”

Ralph also said that he volunteered to simulate the exact jump – weather, clothing and gear, for a “substantial fee” - but the FBI declined his offer.

Ralph also said that DB Cooper was not alone.

“How do you know that, Ralph?” I asked.

“Well, that’s a long story, and I might tell you if we’re face-to-face and I feel like I’m in a good mood,” he replied, laughing. “But I told Ralph Himmelsbach. My story is impossible to verify, though.”

Ralph also said that the money found at Tina Bar in 1980 was “tossed into the Columbia at the Washougal Bridge.”

At this point I promised to meet with Ralph in the near future to continue our conversations, which seemed to be tip-toeing into delicate areas.


© 2014 Bruce A. Smith
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on November 23, 2014, 03:28:17 PM
“Cooper picked a parachute that was not a regular skydiving parachute. He picked an NB-8 or an NB-6, whatever, and that was smart because it had a rigging card and a rigger’s packing pin, so he knew the chute hadn’t been opened and tracking devices put inside.”


© 2014 Bruce A. Smith
[/quote]

The mere fact of a rigging card and a packing pin was no guarantee the chute hadn't been opened and altered or a tracking device installed.  I mean think about this!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 23, 2014, 04:09:10 PM
I agree Georger. A tracking device could have been installed.

Speaking of which, do you know why none were inserted?  There are two reports that seem hard to swallow:

1. Larry says the technology was not available at that time. (Phone interview with me in 2008.)
2. NORAD told McChord not to put tracking devices onto the chutes, according to reporter Adele Ferguson, and somehow that command was transmitted to NWO.

By the way, your attribution of the above quote is incorrect. The quote about the NB-8 or NB-6 chute is from Ralph Hatley, not yours truly. Ralph made the statement in an interview which I have posted here and elsewhere.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on November 23, 2014, 04:50:21 PM
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I agree Georger. A tracking device could have been installed.

Speaking of which, do you know why none were inserted?  There are two reports that seem hard to swallow:

1. Larry says the technology was not available at that time. (Phone interview with me in 2008.)
2. NORAD told McChord not to put tracking devices onto the chutes, according to reporter Adele Ferguson, and somehow that command was transmitted to NWO.

By the way, your attribution of the above quote is incorrect. The quote about the NB-8 or NB-6 chute is from Ralph Hatley, not yours truly. Ralph made the statement in an interview which I have posted here and elsewhere.

Tracking devices of one kind or another were routinely being used by American pilots in Southeast Asia during this time frame.  In 1971, these were probably "homing" type devices that required multiple stations to use triangles to determine the homing devices location.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on November 23, 2014, 05:23:50 PM
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I agree Georger. A tracking device could have been installed.

Speaking of which, do you know why none were inserted?  There are two reports that seem hard to swallow:

1. Larry says the technology was not available at that time. (Phone interview with me in 2008.)
2. NORAD told McChord not to put tracking devices onto the chutes, according to reporter Adele Ferguson, and somehow that command was transmitted to NWO.

By the way, your attribution of the above quote is incorrect. The quote about the NB-8 or NB-6 chute is from Ralph Hatley, not yours truly. Ralph made the statement in an interview which I have posted here and elsewhere.

Tracking devices of one kind or another were routinely being used by American pilots in Southeast Asia during this time frame.  In 1971, these were probably "homing" type devices that required multiple stations to use triangles to determine the homing devices location.

Maj Dawson thought they were going to supply the chutes and wanted to put chaff in the chutes... that was vetoed, according to Dawson ?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 23, 2014, 08:29:12 PM
I agree. In fact the technology ws quite advanced in 1971. All sorts of gadgets were spread around Khe Sanh and the Ho Chi Minh Trail.

I thought Larry's response at the time was quite clumsy and self-serving, but I chose not to confront him. After all, I'm a nice guy...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 23, 2014, 08:30:44 PM
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I agree Georger. A tracking device could have been installed.

Speaking of which, do you know why none were inserted?  There are two reports that seem hard to swallow:

1. Larry says the technology was not available at that time. (Phone interview with me in 2008.)
2. NORAD told McChord not to put tracking devices onto the chutes, according to reporter Adele Ferguson, and somehow that command was transmitted to NWO.

By the way, your attribution of the above quote is incorrect. The quote about the NB-8 or NB-6 chute is from Ralph Hatley, not yours truly. Ralph made the statement in an interview which I have posted here and elsewhere.

Tracking devices of one kind or another were routinely being used by American pilots in Southeast Asia during this time frame.  In 1971, these were probably "homing" type devices that required multiple stations to use triangles to determine the homing devices location.

Maj Dawson thought they were going to supply the chutes and wanted to put chaff in the chutes... that was vetoed, according to Dawson ?

Yup. That's what's read from Adele. Although she lives not too far from me, she has never responded to my efforts to speak with her.  She has no email and phone number listed that I can find.  Only snail mail.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 23, 2014, 08:39:30 PM
Dawson also speaks of the flight path going straight down from Toledo. I guess Mr. Dawson didn't realize really smart guys made the flight path  :D ;D ;)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 24, 2014, 04:46:08 PM
Might be some hope for the KC saga yet  ;D ;D

Seattle PI. November 24, 2014

An olive-skinned man about 5-foot-1, Cooper wore a black raincoat, white shirt, loafers, and dark suit with a black JCPenny clip-on tie. He took a seat in the back of the plane.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/A-look-back-at-D-B-Cooper-a-wanted-criminal-and-5914795.php
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on November 24, 2014, 05:51:31 PM
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Might be some hope for the KC saga yet  ;D ;D

Seattle PI. November 24, 2014

An olive-skinned man about 5-foot-1, Cooper wore a black raincoat, white shirt, loafers, and dark suit with a black JCPenny clip-on tie. He took a seat in the back of the plane.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/A-look-back-at-D-B-Cooper-a-wanted-criminal-and-5914795.php

These are the same people that published a map showing Tena Bar clear over at Camas! Funny. BTW our early cold spell in November (still going on with snow) broke a 137 year old record...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 24, 2014, 05:59:28 PM
Sorry to add this....It's currently 83 degree's in South Florida. (feels like 80 Brrrr)  ;D ;D ;D

A/C......ON  >:(
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 24, 2014, 06:35:03 PM
This is what makes you wonder how much experience Cooper had?

Carr once again:

"Cooper made an inspection of the chutes when Tina was present. As well as the money and the bag the money came in. He made his concerns clear to Tina about the money bag. He checked the money and made statements about that. He stated several times, "no funny stuff," providing nonfunctioning equipment would be funy stuff. Reason dictates that if he new the reserve was a dummy he would have said something about that as well. I doubt that Cooper would have been able to gain any information about the wind conditions by throwing a chute off the air stairs. It was dark, the chute would have instantly disappeared from his sight the moment he let go of it. Of course almost anything is possible, but the evidence points to him jumping with it, not that he did, it just points in that direction."
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 24, 2014, 09:07:59 PM
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Sorry to add this....It's currently 83 degree's in South Florida. (feels like 80 Brrrr)  ;D ;D ;D

A/C......ON  >:(


Shaddup, you m....fer...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 24, 2014, 09:09:47 PM
Are you......cold?  ;D ;D ;D

Update....It has dipped into the upper 70"s  ;D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 24, 2014, 09:10:21 PM
Happy Anniversary, everyone.  43 years.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 24, 2014, 09:12:25 PM
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Are you......cold?  ;D ;D ;D

Update....It has dipped into the upper 70"s  ;D


It ain't snowin', but it ain't 80 either.  (40-ish and rain for the seventh straight day.)

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 24, 2014, 09:16:00 PM
Sorry, I edited your post. I do it more times than people know. I usually catch it  ;D
Meaning, I think I'm making a new post, but I hit modify on other poster comment....oops.


That's jump weather in Washington. ;D sounds like the same as 71?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on November 25, 2014, 12:02:06 AM
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Sorry to add this....It's currently 83 degree's in South Florida. (feels like 80 Brrrr)  ;D ;D ;D

A/C......ON  >:(

All I can say is mush mush. More often than not we often have snow on Thanksgiving. Time for Holiday lights....     
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on November 25, 2014, 12:24:53 AM
If you aren't aware turn on CNN for the events in Ferguson MO tonight!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 25, 2014, 05:46:47 PM
Thanks for the tip about Ferguson. Whew, it is crazy - and around the country.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 25, 2014, 05:48:37 PM
Cooper World News:

Sail and I are going to see Ralph Hatley next week. Confirmed.

We'll be talking about Petey, Coss, Himms, and a mysterious DZ in SE WA. Sail is buying lunch, too!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 25, 2014, 08:03:39 PM
Quote
Sail is buying lunch, too!

I'll just have a burger & fries. a Bud draft with a shot of Goldschlager. Thanks  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 25, 2014, 08:07:03 PM
How about some questions to ask him?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 26, 2014, 02:32:51 AM
I expect to learn more about Cossey and Himms than about the case, per se.

For instance, RH-2 didn't know who Sheridan Peterson was when I mentioned that Sail was coming with me.  That adds to my suspicion of Petey as a prevaricator. It's just that I don't know what real and not real with Petey.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 28, 2014, 04:10:10 AM
A Hot-ish Lead From Geoffrey

377 just sent me a link to Geoffrey Gray's db cooper site, where he talks about getting a mysterious lead to DB Cooper from an individual who has subsequently disappeared.

But GG tells us the gist of what this individual told him, and basically it is that a Canadian "SOG" trooper did it after getting kicked out of the SOG unit, which is actually an RCMP unit. The motivation of the skyjacking gets a little murky, but it seems that the Canuck was being trained to do the hijacking as part of an official Canadian op to frame Quebec separatists, who just happened to be Marxists, and they would be blamed for the American skyjacking when planted Norjak money would be discovered in their possession.

Why the guy went ahead and did the job even though he had been kicked out of his unit is not clear. Maybe he just likes skydiving in WA in the rain.  Better than snow in Quebec, eh?

Mon Dieu!

Ironically, as it turns out my ex-wife was arrested on an RCMP  sting operation under very similar circumstances.  She did 6 months in prison before they kicked her out because she was pregnant, a total revolutionary and organizing an inmate union, starting an inmate newsletter, and was otherwise kicking ass and talking truth to power.

She initially got stung by the RCMPs because some of her friends were blowing up buildings in Quebec and were hard-core separatists.

If it wasn't GG, you would think it was Jo posting on huntfordbcooper.

Remember, those Canadians use "loonies" and "toonies."

Lastly, my first attempt to emmigrate to Quebec, in 1970, was turned down because they already had too many long-haired American hippies with no job skills who avez parler francais comme merde.

My next attempt in 2001 went awry when the above ex chose not to file the necessary paperwork, which is when I got on a boat and went home.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 28, 2014, 06:08:34 AM
Mark Bennett posted this link on this site yesterday afternoon about Gray's site......

http://huntfordbcooper.com/the-cooper-canadian-spy-conspiracy

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: KidCooper on November 28, 2014, 08:48:04 PM
Re: Gray/Cooper Canadian Spy...

The setup sounds good. But if the guy was fired and decided to do the job solo, shouldn't he have realized that part of the original plan to frame the seperatists HINGED ON THE MONEY BEING TRACKED... therefore if he was going to do it himself he would have already realized that so where's the benefit in doing the job alone for money you assume is going to be tracked?

If the skyjacker was part of a Canadian operation or any kind of an operation by anyone and was just doing his mission, I find it interesting that he responded “I don’t have a grudge against your airline, miss. I just have a grudge.” when asked by Tina if he had a grudge with NWO.

A sly response to throw off his scent come up on the spot by an operative just doing his mission? - Or, the response of one who legitimately has one: "miss, I just have a grudge."
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 28, 2014, 08:54:42 PM
Howdy Kid,
Have any luck with your search? I looked for a while and couldn't find anything on your guy.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: KidCooper on November 29, 2014, 04:05:08 AM
Exactly ;) I appreciate you looking. Nothing new on my end. Still feeling like he's worth looking into, just not sure how to do so further.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 30, 2014, 06:41:53 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JKbhPdo-ZY
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 01, 2014, 12:12:00 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JKbhPdo-ZY

Rick "..... and the wind chill was something like 70 degrees below zero!"  ;)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 01, 2014, 12:29:37 AM
I think he was talking about his own head  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 01, 2014, 12:46:17 AM
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I think he was talking about his own head  ;D ;D

That bill fragment didn't look like it had been exposed to nature and water for a period of years.  Also, if I remember correctly, I calculated the wind chill factor on the bottom of the steps at "only" about 35-40 degrees below zero (take your pick of C or F).
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 01, 2014, 12:53:32 AM
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I think he was talking about his own head  ;D ;D

That bill fragment didn't look like it had been exposed to nature and water for a period of years.  Also, if I remember correctly, I calculated the wind chill factor on the bottom of the steps at "only" about 35-40 degrees below zero (take your pick of C or F).

I think it all goes back to what happened to the bills after they left Tina Bar with the ingram's? 60 feet away from the waterline should leave the bills dry as a bone up there?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 01, 2014, 02:47:37 AM
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I think he was talking about his own head  ;D ;D

That bill fragment didn't look like it had been exposed to nature and water for a period of years.  Also, if I remember correctly, I calculated the wind chill factor on the bottom of the steps at "only" about 35-40 degrees below zero (take your pick of C or F).

I think it all goes back to what happened to the bills after they left Tina Bar with the ingram's? 60 feet away from the waterline should leave the bills dry as a bone up there?

Where did you get that photo? Ive never seen it before. Shows the actual elevation vs the staged press photo with Brian showing a much steeper incline.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 01, 2014, 03:41:34 AM
Okay, all you wind chill guys. I'm tired of arguing with y'all and delivering commentaries from guys who actually jump off the bottom of 727 stairs.

Hence, it is time to put up your facts and calculations. Hence:

We know the air temp was 22 degrees Fahrenheit at 10K.

So, how windy was it? How does the wind chill get computed?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 01, 2014, 08:18:30 AM
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Okay, all you wind chill guys. I'm tired of arguing with y'all and delivering commentaries from guys who actually jump off the bottom of 727 stairs.

Hence, it is time to put up your facts and calculations. Hence:

We know the air temp was 22 degrees Fahrenheit at 10K.

So, how windy was it? How does the wind chill get computed?


Are you implying these guys are "blowing a lot of cold air"  ;D ;D


(http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/windchill/images/windchill.gif)


http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/windchill/
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 01, 2014, 08:23:55 AM
Quote
Where did you get that photo? Ive never seen it before. Shows the actual elevation vs the staged press photo with Brian showing a much steeper incline.


It appears to have a heavy incline, probably another reason erosion occurs on the beach.  ;D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 01, 2014, 11:36:12 AM
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Okay, all you wind chill guys. I'm tired of arguing with y'all and delivering commentaries from guys who actually jump off the bottom of 727 stairs.

Hence, it is time to put up your facts and calculations. Hence:

We know the air temp was 22 degrees Fahrenheit at 10K.

So, how windy was it? How does the wind chill get computed?


Are you implying these guys are "blowing a lot of cold air"  ;D ;D


(http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/windchill/images/windchill.gif)


http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/windchill/

The NOAA calculator is only valid up to 110 MPH.  However, there is an equation somewhere on the Internet that permits the calculation of the wind chill to higher speeds such as the 225 MPH speed of the airliner.  But after a certain point, the wind chill is not really applicable.  Cooper would have been freezing his butt off while on the aircraft stairs under any conditions.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 01, 2014, 08:53:55 PM
That's my point. The empirical data show little-to-no-wind on the stairs. Don't you guys remember the folks who told us that a cup of coffee stayed put on the top of the stairs in Chicago when the jumpers went out of their 727 during a sky dive exercise?

In addition, Robb said it was pretty calm - but noisy - as he went down the stairs.  Yes, the slip stream kicks butt once you leave the protection of the stairs, but the turbulence calms down after a few seconds.

So, forget the wind chill charts. Let's hear from people who actually jump off 727 stairs.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 01, 2014, 08:55:27 PM
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Quote
Where did you get that photo? Ive never seen it before. Shows the actual elevation vs the staged press photo with Brian showing a much steeper incline.


It appears to have a heavy incline, probably another reason erosion occurs on the beach.  ;D

You should see the slope nowadays. There's a three-four foot drop off at the top of the riverbank.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 03, 2014, 12:24:38 AM
Greetings Everyone,

Sail, his wife Michelle, and I went to see Ralph Hatley today. Here is my report:

*********************************

I traveled to see Ralph Hatley (RH-2) today at his DZ in Eagle Creek, Oregon, and was honored with a ride and the delightful company of Sailshaw and his wife, Michelle.

Ralph is a robust looking 77-year old guy, with a big pot belly, a big smile, and twinkle in his eye. Yes, he comes across in a rough, authoritative manner that can easily be construed as that of a curmudgeon.

But I found Ralph to be a delightful man to interview over lunch, chatting about DB Cooper. However, he is a man who is cautious and reserved. When we approached controversial topics, such as the role of Earl Cossey in Norjak, he rebuffed many of my questions behind a façade of “I don’t remember,” or I don’t know.”

Hence, we had to warm up to our topics while eating a lovely lunch in bucolic Estacada, Oregon.

At first, Ralph provided some wonderful background, historical points and factoids:

He grew up in the Blue Mountains of eastern Oregon, and his great-grandmother walked the Oregon Trail as a barefoot kid and her family.

Ralph said that he joined the military in 1953 at 16, and served in the 82nd Airborne. He also claimed that he flew DB Cooper’s 727 after Northwest had sold it to a cargo company, and he flew a run to Salt Lake City with a friend who was also the pilot in command. Ralph has a commercial pilot’s license, but he is not rated for a 727, so he back-tracked during the conversation to restate his position, “I was invited to fly the plane.”

RH-2 also told us that he jumped with the Golden Knights in Europe, but that he did not know Ted Braden.

Ralph went to Gresham High School, along with Ted Mayfield, whom he taught how to skydive. Ralph not only confirmed the allegation that Ted had been arrested for armed robbery, but he also gave us the details.

RH-2 told us that Ted had been a part-time delivery driver for a bottling company and knew the work schedules and cash flows of the grocery stores that he serviced. As a result he knew to rob them on Sunday nights when the till was at its fullest. Ralph said that Ted got caught, “the first time,” when he was robbing “Mr. G’s Market” in Oregon City.

As for DB Cooper, Ralph told us that “there was nothing difficult about that jump.” He also said that he had told the FBI that the skyjacker was an experienced skydiver “even before they gave him the money.”

RH-2 described many encounters with FBI agents throughout the early stages of the investigation, and joked that he told one agent that he in fact knew a skydiver named Dan Cooper in Moses Lake, but he was only 20 years old and wore glasses.

He was also interviewed by Jules Mattson, the Portland SAC, and over a lunch RH-2 delivered a photo of the “Century Skydivers of Vancouver,” an elite group of local jumpers. Later, a special investigator from the San Francisco FBI office asked for an interview with Ralph and grilled him on the photograph. Ralph toyed with the G-man, and then in pique of disgust told the guy, who was named Special Agent Bond, that he was the person responsible for giving the photo to Mattson originally.

Ralph was hard to pin down on the question of what parachutes were used and by whom, but he did say that if he was Cooper he would want to use a chute that had a rigger’s card, and one that matched the documentation on the rigging pins so that he would be sure he would have a “fresh chute” free of any electronic devices or tampering by the FBI.

RH-2 also discussed his relationship with Earl Cossey, whom he described as a good friend. However, he hadn’t seen Coss in about ten years, and has never met Coss’ kids, who are now middle-aged adults.

Nevertheless, he said that he had beaten Coss in many skydiving competitions, “But he beat me a few times, too.”

Ralph characterized their friendship as mostly surrounding skydiving. Nevertheless, he said that Coss was only an average poker player and that he, RH, had to “save Coss' ass a couple of times to make sure he didn't get the shit kicked out of him.”

Hatley also told us that the rental houses that Coss renovated had originally been embezzled by Cossey from his mother.

So, Ralph knew about the alleged shady side of Earl Cossey, and agreed that Cossey could be provocative. But he also honored his friend by recalling how beloved Coss was by his students in the middle school where he taught.

Further, Ralph didn’t have anything to offer on the murder of Earl Cossey, though.

As for the Amboy chute, RH-2 said that Coos had indeed called him about the matter, but only spent the time bad-mouthing the FBI and ragging on their inept handling of Norjak. RH-2 shared many of the same opinions.

“The FBI only has tunnel vision.”

After a solid hour of chatting, Ralph suddenly announced: “I’m going to tell you something that’s going to blow your asses out of the water.”

He proceeded to tell us a story that occurred in the 1977-1978 time period.

Ralph said he was contacted by his attorney out of the blue one day. The lawyer said that he had a client that was looking for a “go-between” with the FBI, and wondered if Ralph would agree to carry the client’s requests to the Bureau. Ralph agreed.

The attorney said that his client had knowledge of the identity of DB Cooper and wanted to “come out of the cold.” The client was looking for a promise of immunity from prosecution.

Ralph contacted Ralph Himmelsbach (RH-1), whom he had become friends with through their mutual aviation activities. Himmelsbach said he was willing to hear the offer, but wanted to see a DB Cooper $20 bill before anything substantive could proceed.

RH-2 relayed the information to the attorney, who responded that his client also wanted immunity for a murder.

Again, RH-2 relayed the information.

Himmelsbach replied that he would need to involve the District Attorney in the jurisdiction where the murder had taken place. Again RH-2 and the lawyer relayed the messages.

The murder apparently took place in Washington, and Hatley told us that Himmelsbach had contacted the Washington state authorities, who turned down the murder-immunity deal.

Subsequently, client’s offer to reveal the facts of the case was withdrawn, according to Hatley.

However, Hatley told us that he got the full story on the attorney’s deathbed. He also said that the client is deceased, as well.

This is what Ralph Hatley learned at that juncture.

Hatley told us that the attorney was Jim Leubke of Portland, Oregon, and that the client was a man whom Hatley knew. In fact, Hatley knew the client’s wife as well, who was a teller at a local savings and loan bank. Even though Hatley refused to tell us the name of the client, he shared the details:

The client was part of DB Cooper’s ground team, who all conspired kill DB Cooper for the money. They buried Cooper’s body on the slopes of Mount St Helens before it blew in 1980, and the fate of the money is a bit murky. RH-2 said he was told that the wife “got rid of it when she realized it was hot.”

However, the client also told the attorney to tell Himmelsbach that he “would see some of the money before he retired.”

Since this was taking place in 1978, it appears that it predates the money find at Tina Bar in 1980 and Himmelsbach’s retirement in early April 1980.

Despite not revealing the name of the client, RH-2 said that Himmelsbach knows the name of the client, and in fact Hatley says that he told RH-1 everything about the story.

“If you ask Ralph Himmelsbach for the name of the client and he gives it to you, I will confirm it for you - but I’m not going to tell you.”

We all – Dwight, Michelle, and I – pushed Hatley for the name, but he wouldn’t budge. However, he did relent a bit and told us that the client was also responsible for another murder, one that occurred in the Sandy, Oregon area. Hatley said, “He got away with that one.”


(This post was edited by BruceSmith on Dec 2, 2014, 9:10 PM)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 03, 2014, 12:31:28 AM
It's been a delightfully busy DB Cooper week so far!

Interview with Bill Mitchell, Monday, 12. 1. 14


I spoke with Flight 305 passenger Bill Mitchell, today, and I found him to be a charming fellow with a delightful sense of humor. But first I had to receive his phone call:

“Hi. This is Bill Mitchell, DB Cooper’s best friend,” he announced on my message machine. “I thought you might like to talk about something that happened 43 years ago.” He left his phone number.

Bill is a bit reclusive, so I had asked Vicki Wilson to intercede for me. Vicki and I had spent a solid day looking for Bill during the 2013 Symposium, and eventually she had been able to talk with him about her missing father, Mel Wilson. When I heard that news I asked her for the favor and she complied. She passed my contact information to Bill.

“Be nice to him,” she entreated me when she sent me an email confirming that she had told Bill about me.

I promised I would be a perfect gentleman, and I trust I was.  Here’s what we talked about:

“43 years was a LONG time ago,” he said.

I agreed, and told Bill that I was as interested in hearing of his experiences in the Norjak saga past and present as I was to learn about his “best friend.”

We scrambled across a range of topics, starting with what he remembered from 1971.

“I didn’t agree to the first sketch,” he said “When Vicki showed me a picture of her father the only thing I could tell her was that DB Cooper had that ‘jugular’ thing, and so did her father.

“You mean the ‘turkey gobble’ fold of skin under his chin?”

“Yeah. I remembered that; not sure it was any help to her.”

“I also remember being upset that Tina was paying SO much attention to that older guy.”

I laughed and commiserated with Bill. “Yeah, Bill, I still have a crush on Tina, too.”

“Really?” Bill laughed as well. “Have you ever met her? I’d like to meet her someday. I think it would be interesting to talk with her, to hear what she went through that day.”

Bill and I talked a bit about Tina and my escapades with the Mucklow clan. Then he launched into a description of his many emotions and feelings about being the guy in Row 18, seat B.

“DB Cooper was romanticized. All my friends and me, we, um, looked at him as ‘beating the man’ – y’know. But he had six sticks of dynamite and was sitting next to me!...I wasn’t, like angry, but more like puzzled. But you have to remember; when people called him a hero he also had a bomb and was threatening to blow me up.

“When I went home that night and was just sitting around watching the TV, my dad said, ‘The way they’re building this guy up – there’s going to be a million copy cats.’ And there was, not a million, but a lot.”

I asked Bill about the FBI and his experiences participating in their investigation.

“You could tell that the veteran FBI agents had the holiday weekend off, because when I got off the plane all the agents I talked to were the young guys.”

I asked Bill if he remembered the names of any agents.

“Nah, not really. It was 43 years, ago, remember!”

Bill continued and told me he went back to college after the Thanksgiving weekend. At school he saw FBI agents two-three times per week for a year and a half, reviewing at least 10 pictures per visit. Surprisingly, Bill was a little anxious about the visits.

“You have to remember, in Eugene, even then it was hippie-dippie ville, and I was, um, a sophomore, not in a fraternity yet, but in the dorm, and there was um, a lot of drugs around. I told the FBI that I didn’t do any drugs, but I was concerned that some of my friends, or guys in the dorms, might get into trouble with the agents coming around so much. So, I asked the FBI about that, and they said, ’We don’t worry too much about that.’”

As Bill reflected, he mentioned that most of the agents he dealt with in Norjak were based in Eugene. He vaguely remembered Ralph Himmelsbach, but acknowledged that he didn’t have any direct dealings with him. When I mentioned Charlie Farrell, John Detlor and Sid Rubin, Bill had no recollection of them whatsoever.

“But all of the agents I met were impressive,” he reassured me.

Bill discussed the events at Sea-Tac in detail, especially his dealings with the FBI, who recommended that Bill discuss the case with caution and prudence.

“You’re one of the prime witnesses they reminded me,” Bill said.

Bill added that he wasn’t particularly frightened, but wished to be wise. Hence, he decided not to talk with media, and maintain a low public profile.

“The FBI said, ‘Look, we don’t know who this guy is, or where he is, but he threatened to blow you and the plane up, so use good judgment in deciding who to talk with.’…They recommended that I not talk to the news reporters, so I didn’t.”

Bill said that a lot of media has called him through the years, but in general he has rebuffed them all.

Besides protecting himself and his privacy, Bill was further discouraged from talking to the media by the widespread inaccuracies they were reporting.

“It was a long time before I read a newspaper article that I felt was true to what I knew…I was amazed that so many stories got the facts wrong – that was one of the reasons I wasn’t too eager to talk to journalists.”

Bill added that he figured Tina Mucklow went through the same kind of treatment.

“I’d love to talk with Tina and see what she went through.”

When Bill landed at Sea-Tac he was tired and eager to rendez-vous with his father and get a home-cooked meal.

“It was supposed to be a 37-minute flight, and it took three and a half hours. Plus it was dark and rainy when we landed – and way out on the tarmac – you could hardly see the terminal.

“I had been moved up to first class by the flight attendant who looked like she was in charge, she also looked stressed. I moved up but I really didn’t want to. I was happy to just stay in back and sleep. But I moved up, but I forgot my coat. In stead of going back the flight attendant got my coat for me.”

Bill said that he remembers seeing a bag come aboard, which he later learned was the money, and he saw the parachutes.

“But I still didn’t think that we were being hijacked.”

Later, as he descended the stairs to the tarmac he heard someone speak, and an FBI agent said, “Yes, you’ve been hijacked.”

“That was the first I knew of it,” Bill said.

He continued:

“We started walking towards the terminal, which was a long ways away. Then a bus came and we got on. Then the FBI started calling names from a list, and they called my name first, ‘Bill Mitchell.’ I said, ‘Here,” and then they called ‘Dan Cooper’ and there was nothing. No one answered. Eventually we realized that was the skyjacker.

“Then I realized that the FBI had three and a half hours to investigate me! I wondered if they had been suspecting me since they had called my name first. I had paid for my ticket in cash, I was a 20-year old college student from Eugene….did they think I was the hijacker?”

At this point I asked Bill about some of the notables of Cooper World.

“Do you remember Galen Cook? I think he’s interviewed you several times.”

“The guy from, um, Alaska?”

“Yeah.”

“Vaguely. I do remember a book that was on sale at the exhibit in Tacoma. I didn’t recognize it when I saw it.

“Skyjack? ‘The Hunt for DB Cooper,’ by Geoffrey Gray?”

“Maybe. My name was in it, but I don’t remember talking to anyone.”

“You didn’t talk with Geoffrey?

“I might have, but I don’t remember. But, somehow my name got in that book…but I do remember Jo Weber. She called me several years ago. She’s a wacko. She sent me all these pictures of Duane – now remember that Duane’s ears are HUGE, and I would have made fun of them – so what I told Jo was: ‘I know for a fact that I would have remembered those huge ears.”

Another interesting factoid from Bill was his account of being filmed by a British TV show called “Greatest Crimes,” and Boeing refused to allow them to film aboard one of their 727s. As a result, the film crew flew Bill to Portland and they shot in the 727 that is parked in some guy’s backyard and is used as a domicile.

“It was weird!” Bill said with a laugh.

Bill also enjoyed recounting his getaway from Sea-Tac.

“All the passengers were sitting in the VIP lounge at Northwest and the FBI was asking us about what we remembered about the guy in the back of the plane. I was just sitting there and being quiet.  When they got to me I said, ‘Well, I was sitting next to the guy,’ and with that they all got in my face!”

At the same time, Bill’s father was waiting for him in the parking lot at Sea-Tac.

“I called him from Portland just before I got on the plane and told him it was just a 37 minute flight, so I’d see him soon. But it took three and a half hours!”

Bill said his Dad waited at first in his car and heard about the hijacking on the radio. Then he moved inside the terminal to the Northwest counter, where the waiting families were becoming agitated.

“They brought all the families into a room and told them, ‘Yes, it was a hijacking.’”

Bill’s Mom was home cooking “her baby boy’s favorite dinner,” and was watching the TV. She saw the news coverage, especially the fire boats in Elliott Bay waiting to retrieve wreckage in case the plane exploded over the city.

“She was going nuts,” Bill said.

At one point, Bill’s Dad went back into the public area and was standing next to a fellow wearing NWO mechanics clothes. But the individual’s walkie-talkie started crackling and the guy reached inside to retrieve it, revealing that he had a machine gun slung over his shoulder.

“I was kind of crazy,” Bill shared, “But my Dad is an ex-Marine, so he wasn’t too fazed by anything.”

As the “guy who sat next to Cooper,” the FBI kept him longer than any other passenger. As a result, a scrum of 200 reporters were waiting for him to exit.

“My Dad was waiting for me, just outside them, so I told the FBI I had to leave that way. The recommended that I chew on a ham sandwich, take a bite as I leave the room and keep chewing as I walked past the reporters. They pushed me out the door and the light bulbs flashed and everybody started shouting. It was just like in the movies. But a State trooper barged ahead and cleared a path for me. I kept walking right through them, and after the first line of reporters it lightened up, and I just walked over to my Dad. We just walked out of the terminal and went home.”

Momma had a turkey waiting for Bill, and life returned to near-normalcy.

“I went back to college after the weekend – Sunday or Monday – and I told my circle of friends. But really, everyone in Eugene knew about it. But I didn’t talk about it publically….I turned down all the media requests.”

Ironically, Bill did write an essay about his experiences – but in Italian!

“I had an assignment in Italian class, to write a story in Italian, so I wrote about the hijacking. When my teacher read it she pulled me aside and said, ‘Is this for real?’”

Later, after the Richard McCoy hijacking, Bill got a surprise call from two Newsweek reporters. They had obtained a photograph on McCoy immediately after the skyjacking and located Bill through a family friend. They showed the photo to Bill who told them the likeness didn’t match his recall of Cooper.

“But the next day the FBI showed up with a picture of McCoy and were really miffed that two Newsweek reporters had beaten them. So who tipped off Newsweek?” Bill asked me.

I asked Bill if he ever tries to figure out DB Cooper’s identity or fate.

“Well sure. I mean, I worked for Boeing for 35 years, so we talked about it a lot. But most FBI agents I’ve talked with told me they figure Cooper died in the jump. But everything was so well planned….”


© 2014
Bruce A. Smith
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 03, 2014, 02:04:10 AM
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It's been a delightfully busy DB Cooper week so far!

Interview with Bill Mitchell, Monday, 12. 1. 14.

“Well sure. I mean, I worked for Boeing for 35 years, so we talked about it a lot. But most FBI agents I’ve talked with told me they figure Cooper died in the jump. But everything was so well planned….”


© 2014
Bruce A. Smith

an amazing interview. His recall seems pretty good for so long ago. Did you ask him for any details about Cooper ?

 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 03, 2014, 03:18:20 AM
Bill Mitchell Interview

I did not ask Bill Mitchell much on DB Cooper or the sketches.  Frankly, Bill seemed burnt-out on those subjects, and he made it very clear he was not eager to visit the subject again.

I sense there are a couple of reasons.

One is the exhaustion factor - thousands of photographs, agents with varying degrees of knowledge and interest in the case, interruptions to his life - such as the FBI arriving in the middle of family gatherings.

But more importantly I think, is an intangible quality of realizing that his commentaries on the Cooper case come with a great price. Cooper makes people crazy, worried or ecstatic. People are insistent to prove that "their guy" is Cooper.  Bill knows that if he says that, "Nope, you're guy is definitely not Cooper" he is going to disappoint folks in extremis, and some will retaliate, argue, bully, or otherwise sour his day.

I also think Bill does not 100% absolutely trust his memory. I think he realizes that what we remember is not always 100% accurate - that memory is subject to emotional distress and growing maturity. We see things differently as time moves on because the events and people of the past have different meaning to us at different stages of our lives.

As we have discussed frequently. eye witness accounts are often wrong, even after a few hours or minutes, and certainly over 43 years.

So, I talked with Bill about what matters to him most these days - his family, reactions to his persona as a prime witness, memories of his dealings with the FBI, media, Jo Weber and guys like me. And of course, Tina!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 03, 2014, 04:04:02 AM
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Bill Mitchell Interview

I did not ask Bill Mitchell much on DB Cooper or the sketches.  Frankly, Bill seemed burnt-out on those subjects, and he made it very clear he was not eager to visit the subject again.

I sense there are a couple of reasons.

One is the exhaustion factor - thousands of photographs, agents with varying degrees of knowledge and interest in the case, interruptions to his life - such as the FBI arriving in the middle of family gatherings.

But more importantly I think, is an intangible quality of realizing that his commentaries on the Cooper case come with a great price. Cooper makes people crazy, worried or ecstatic. People are insistent to prove that "their guy" is Cooper.  Bill knows that if he says that, "Nope, you're guy is definitely not Cooper" he is going to disappoint folks in extremis, and some will retaliate, argue, bully, or otherwise sour his day.

I also think Bill does not 100% absolutely trust his memory. I think he realizes that what we remember is not always 100% accurate - that memory is subject to emotional distress and growing maturity. We see things differently as time moves on because the events and people of the past have different meaning to us at different stages of our lives.

As we have discussed frequently. eye witness accounts are often wrong, even after a few hours or minutes, and certainly over 43 years.

So, I talked with Bill about what matters to him most these days - his family, reactions to his persona as a prime witness, memories of his dealings with the FBI, media, Jo Weber and guys like me. And of course, Tina!

Did he say this or is this just your slate of interests showing through, as usual?

He has a consummate interest in Tina like you? 

Mybe it would be refreshing if he only had to talk about Cooper: not reactions to his persona as a prime witness, memories of his dealings with the FBI, media, Jo Weber and guys like me. And of course, Tina!

 ;)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 07, 2014, 12:47:09 AM
Hey everyone, please forgive me if this is the wrong place to post and again for possibly side-tracking the thread, as I am new to the forum. I was wondering if anyone could point me to (if released) any recorded material, transcripts, et al. of the actual interviews conducted by the FBI of the flight crew after the Reno arrival? - thx (and hello!)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 01:14:28 AM
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Hey everyone, please forgive me if this is the wrong place to post and again for possibly side-tracking the thread, as I am new to the forum. I was wondering if anyone could point me to (if released) any recorded material, transcripts, et al. of the actual interviews conducted by the FBI of the flight crew after the Reno arrival? - thx (and hello!)

Welcome,

I'm new too, and I have a ton of questions. There should be a thread specifically for information requests. There is a lot of knowledge held by many of the regular posters, and a lot of that knowledge is not accessible. I definitely don't feel comfortable messaging individual members for information, at least not yet.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 01:19:34 AM
And as far as I can tell, the stuff the FBI has released to the public is mostly junk. Several authors have gotten access to those unreleased FBI records, I'd look at Ralph Himmelsbach's book "Norjak", Richard Tosaw's book "DB Cooper, Dead or Alive" and Gray's book "Skyjack."

The FBI Vault: http://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper%20/ (http://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper%20/)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 07, 2014, 03:00:20 AM
Greetings Newbies,

You can always ask me questions and I'll give you five minutes worth of an answer.

A few places to look for answers. One is the Mountain News where most of my original research on Cooper was published. So you can read the full interview I have had with Bill Rataczak, Himmelsbach, riding around Camas with Jo Weber for a day (!), Marla, etc.... (www.themountainnewswa.net)

I've been on the case since 2008.  I also have a book coming out soon, "DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of the Investigation into America's only Unsolved Skyjacking." It's about 500-pages of distilled sleuthing. I'll give you information on that as it becomes available.

Or if can buy me beer or lunch (or both) and ask away!

Here's my table of contents to help you peruse the DB Cooper saga:
Table of Contents

Chapter 1   An introduction to DB Cooper and the FBI’s investigation      4
Chapter 2   The skyjacking begins                  14
Chapter 3   The getaway                     27
Chapter 4   Physical profile of DB Cooper            42
Chapter 5   Sketches of DB Cooper               50
Chapter 6   The investigation begins, assessing the parachutes      55
Chapter 7   The murder of Earl Cossey, the parachute expert      87
Chapter 8   More problems with the flight path, weather, and the LZ   94
Chapter 9   The money find                  98
Chapter 10   Tina Mucklow, flight attendant and the primary witness   111
Chapter 11   A resurgent investigation and legacy of Larry Carr       134
Chapter 12   The Citizen Sleuths                  143
Chapter 13   Role of DNA                     157
Chapter 14   The DropZone; open-sourced sleuthing         160
Chapter 15   Ralph Himmelsbach and the 922 confessions      167
Chapter 16   The confession of Barb Dayton            173
Chapter 17   The deathbed confession of Duane Weber         182
Chapter 18   The near-confession of Kenny Christiansen         188
Chapter 19   The family confession of Wolfgang Gossett         192
Chapter 20   Vietnam, SOG and Ted Braden            198
Chapter 21   Sheridan Peterson - the ideal Cooper suspect       215
Chapter 22   Richard McCoy, MKULTRA, and the role of the CIA   225
Chapter 23:   Copycat skyjackers –a group effort?            242
Chapter 24   Robb Heady, an interview with a copycat         257
Chapter 25   Early suspects, Ted Mayfield, and the Cooper Vortex   267
Chapter 26   The Vortex conjures another suspect, Don Burnworth   272
Chapter 27   “Most promising” suspect, Marla Cooper’s Uncle LD   290
Chapter 28   Letters from “DB Cooper,” and the mysterious Al Di   313
Chapter 29   Cyber attacks on Cooper investigators         325
Chapter 30   Is there a cover-up?                  335
Chapter 31   Remote Viewing, a new forensic tool            341
Chapter 32   What’s next in the DB Cooper case?            355
Reference A:  Who’s Who of Norjak – The Hunters and the Hijacked   365
Reference B:  What if DB Cooper didn’t jump?            382
Reference C:  Synopsis of the parachute controversy         385
Reference D:  The filming of the Barb Dayton documentary         392
Reference E:  Timeline for Curtis Eng and the “Marla Show”      402
Reference F:  Bill Mitchell, interview with a primary witness      406
Reference G:  2013 Symposium                  417
Index                              422
Acknowledgements                        431
Biography of the Author, author’s note               433
Photo Gallery
 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 07, 2014, 03:03:27 AM
Shut, maybe we should have a newbie section, so folks can tip-toe into these waters before some of us smell fresh meat....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2014, 08:24:35 AM
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Hey everyone, please forgive me if this is the wrong place to post and again for possibly side-tracking the thread, as I am new to the forum. I was wondering if anyone could point me to (if released) any recorded material, transcripts, et al. of the actual interviews conducted by the FBI of the flight crew after the Reno arrival? - thx (and hello!)

Welcome,

I'm new too, and I have a ton of questions. There should be a thread specifically for information requests. There is a lot of knowledge held by many of the regular posters, and a lot of that knowledge is not accessible. I definitely don't feel comfortable messaging individual members for information, at least not yet.

Good points. I'm trying to get things organized so people can access things easily. I understand questions need to be asked and I hope nobody holds back in asking them. If a "Newbie" thread needs to be open I can do that. perhaps calling it "General Questions about the case"  :-\

Members new to this forum:

Make sure you also take advantage of what is already here in the multiple threads and the photo gallery. another good source is the video & links vault with lots of information about the case.

This is a good source here as well...."Transcripts From Flight 305 ( including PDF Files From WSHS)"

http://www.thedbcooperforum.com/index.php?topic=31.0

I don't want anyone worried about asking a questions here at any time. I created this forum to explore the DB Cooper case and asking questions is one of things required. If you feel you are not ready to ask any members a question in private feel free to
PM me with any questions about this forum, or the case.

Shutter


Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 07, 2014, 03:37:24 PM
Thanks for the reception. I'm actually not too new to the Cooperama as much as I am to the forum. I've been through the DZ etc. but maybe someone here could clear this one up for me.
I keep hearing the jets scrambled to follow 305 as being so fast that they had to zig-zag to maintain contact with the aircraft yet the only factual reference I've ever seen is the statement that they caught up with 305 at Red Bluff CA. It's important to me to get an idea of why they saw nobody leave the aircraft or why air force pilots wouldn't see a 26/28 non-steerable chute? Anybody clear that up the trailing jet issue for me?

* it might be interesting to have a short introduction profile thread. Because this forum is small it would be good to know if someone has chemistry experience etc. For instance I'm Canadian, it's why I LOL'd all the way through this new CSIS/FLQ theory. I've also worked around aircraft for about twenty years and that includes being up and down the 727 stairs. I would love a chemist to be in here somewhere. Anyone know electrochemistry?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 07, 2014, 04:20:34 PM
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Thanks for the reception. I'm actually not too new to the Cooperama as much as I am to the forum. I've been through the DZ etc. but maybe someone here could clear this one up for me.
I keep hearing the jets scrambled to follow 305 as being so fast that they had to zig-zag to maintain contact with the aircraft yet the only factual reference I've ever seen is the statement that they caught up with 305 at Red Bluff CA. It's important to me to get an idea of why they saw nobody leave the aircraft or why air force pilots wouldn't see a 26/28 non-steerable chute? Anybody clear that up the trailing jet issue for me?

* it might be interesting to have a short introduction profile thread. Because this forum is small it would be good to know if someone has chemistry experience etc. For instance I'm Canadian, it's why I LOL'd all the way through this new CSIS/FLQ theory. I've also worked around aircraft for about twenty years and that includes being up and down the 727 stairs. I would love a chemist to be in here somewhere. Anyone know electrochemistry?

Maybe you need to explain to us why 'electrochemistry' is important in this case?

 :)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 04:27:04 PM
Let me say I'm also not new to Cooperdom, I've read Norjack/Skyjack/Tosaw, Mr. Smith's website, Sluggo's website and a few thousand DZ forum posts. The problem is, the questions I have aren't about the basics, and they also have nothing to do with the Tina Bar find (the main topic of discussion everywhere). So I would concur with a request forum (newbie thread, whatever).
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 07, 2014, 04:44:58 PM
Moriarty-

Yup, the behavior of the jets and their pilots is a mystery. Why they couldn't see anything, is, I suppose a function of rain and darkness.

But the bigger question is how come they didn't have any radar contact with 305 and Cooper.

I have written extensively on this subject, and many others have as well at the DZ. Here are the basic thoughts on this issue - remember, this is pure speculation:

One theory is that the pilots and their radar systems were functioning properly but their findings have been kept secret to:

1. Not let the Russkies know how good our tech was.

OR

2. Not let the Russkies know how poor our tech was, along with not letting the American taxpayers know how much money was wasted on junk tech.

OR

3. Big Power wanted Cooper to get away successfully.

A Washington State legislature told a news reporter in the late 1970s that back in 1971 when he was a flight ops officer at McChord AB, he was instructed by his superiors at NORAD to order the chase pilots to back off and not get too close. He was also ordered not to place any chaff in the parachutes, which never went to Cooper because of the skyjacker's demands.

Regardless, to properly evaluate the actions of the USAF and their equipment regarding DB Cooper, it is helpful to know what else was going on at that time in term of looking for Cooper.

To begin, the ground search didn't begin until the next morning. Daylight was about 8 am. So Cooper had a sizeable head-start.

Secondly, most of the LZ was searched by fixed wing and helo, and experienced a lot of delays and interruptions due to fog, rain and cloud cover.

Third, the ground search was minimal. Over the four-day period before ops were canceled by the FBI, only one square mile was search by boots on the ground in a suspected LZ of 24 square miles. The whole area was not searched for another five months. When questioned, the Bureau says that there was too much snow on the ground, but weather reports rebuke that claim, as do the folks who live in Ariel and Amboy. They report the snow level was around 1,500-feet, well above the rolling hills of the LZ.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 07, 2014, 04:50:47 PM
Andrade - since we've spared a bit, I feel more comfortable if you'd call me Cousin Brucie, or Prince Bruce. Both work for me.  "Mr. Smith" is the name I go by in a Doctor's office when I'm waiting for an appointment.

(smile)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 07, 2014, 04:54:31 PM
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And as far as I can tell, the stuff the FBI has released to the public is mostly junk. Several authors have gotten access to those unreleased FBI records, I'd look at Ralph Himmelsbach's book "Norjak", Richard Tosaw's book "DB Cooper, Dead or Alive" and Gray's book "Skyjack."

The FBI Vault: http://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper%20/ (http://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper%20/)

What you post, of course, is the $64 dollar question. Why wasn't more progress made in the case (so far as we know), and when will the gods open the heavens and dispense gifts and solutions for Humankind in this matter! Because everyone who has ever delved into this matter has come out empty handed, as it were, which presumably includes the FBI and all other agencies of human endeavor (including NASA, RobertMBlevins, and even Jo Weber!) alike! "It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key" ?  :)

What is wrong since so many "smart guys" failed to put a lid on this genie in a bottle? Is it a problem of "facts", politics, or what? Was the case actually solved and the public was just never informed for some reason? Apparently this simple case can't be solved, like some mathematical puzzles. Maybe the problem is not "smart guys" not being smart so much as "smart guys" not having been correctly ORDAINED! The right mantra or curse is missing! Nam-mio-ho-renge-kyo!. Freddy is the devil. Duane Weber was D.B. Cooper!

Mairzy doats and dozy doats
And liddle lamzy divey
A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you?
Yes! Mairzy doats and dozy doats
and liddle lamzy divey
A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you?

There my friends is the solution. It was sitting in plain sight all along.

"Smart guys" can all stop wasting energy now. Better to go out and check and count the cows to make sure they are all there.

Or maybe there are too many cooks making a small stew?

 ;)         
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 07, 2014, 05:02:35 PM
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Moriarty-

Yup, the behavior of the jets and their pilots is a mystery. Why they couldn't see anything, is, I suppose a function of rain and darkness.

But the bigger question is how come they didn't have any radar contact with 305 and Cooper.

I have written extensively on this subject, and many others have as well at the DZ. Here are the basic thoughts on this issue - remember, this is pure speculation:

One theory is that the pilots and their radar systems were functioning properly but their findings have been kept secret to:

1. Not let the Russkies know how good our tech was.

OR

2. Not let the Russkies know how poor our tech was, along with not letting the American taxpayers know how much money was wasted on junk tech.

OR

3. Big Power wanted Cooper to get away successfully.

A Washington State legislature told a news reporter in the late 1970s that back in 1971 when he was a flight ops officer at McChord AB, he was instructed by his superiors at NORAD to order the chase pilots to back off and not get too close. He was also ordered not to place any chaff in the parachutes, which never went to Cooper because of the skyjacker's demands.

Regardless, to properly evaluate the actions of the USAF and their equipment regarding DB Cooper, it is helpful to know what else was going on at that time in term of looking for Cooper.

To begin, the ground search didn't begin until the next morning. Daylight was about 8 am. So Cooper had a sizeable head-start.

Secondly, most of the LZ was searched by fixed wing and helo, and experienced a lot of delays and interruptions due to fog, rain and cloud cover.

Third, the ground search was minimal. Over the four-day period before ops were canceled by the FBI, only one square mile was search by boots on the ground in a suspected LZ of 24 square miles. The whole area was not searched for another five months. When questioned, the Bureau says that there was too much snow on the ground, but weather reports rebuke that claim, as do the folks who live in Ariel and Amboy. They report the snow level was around 1,500-feet, well above the rolling hills of the LZ.

And if you look at all of yours above one vital thing is missing: today's technology and the application of that technology ... could have made the difference. You can blame people for that if you want or you can just chalk it up to 'cousin Mary died because there weren't kidney transplants... yet!'  She was well loved and We remember her well.
She would have 25 grandchildren today. Her husband Bob died just last year - he never remarried.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 05:30:15 PM
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Andrade - since we've spared a bit, I feel more comfortable if you'd call me Cousin Brucie, or Prince Bruce. Both work for me.  "Mr. Smith" is the name I go by in a Doctor's office when I'm waiting for an appointment.

(smile)

"Prince Bruce" it shall be. I may message you with a bunch of questions sometime soon (I'm a novelist, which is my primary interest in the case, I'm working on a novel that incorporates all the "science" of the case with the known narrative)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 07, 2014, 07:02:38 PM
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Maybe you need to explain to us why 'electrochemistry' is important in this case?

 :)

There's a sample on Cooper's tie that I notice that needs to be run by an electrochemist but I'm having problems getting one to respond. I believe the sample is similiar to a Zinc electrodeposition with polyethylene glycol. If that is correct then I'm going to explore in a specific direction.I suppose my idea is that if everyone has gone down these theory roads and nothings worked, it's time to go down some different roads.
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.... The problem is, the questions I have aren't about the basics, ....

Haha, man for me andrade1812, it's all about the basics. Something that makes me crazy is this basic situation: Let's say Cooper died in the jump. Let's say Cooper survived the jump. What I keep thinking about are valid reasons that no one could/would identify Cooper? The idea that Cooper would skyjack a plane and then go back to work on a Monday and somebody wouldn't say "Hey man, you look like DB Cooper?" or say to authorities that my co-worker looks like this Cooper dude is crazy. So is skyjacking in a business suit because you "feel most comfortable in it." I think he wore the suit to fit in, be invisible. To say (FBI) that Cooper was a middle management/executive etc because of the suit, tie, briefcase etc, is ridiculous to me. He might well have committed the crime with an honest "My name is ______" sticker on himself. Cooper doesn't seem that stupid to me.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 07:32:38 PM
One of the stewards said Cooper "Wasn't the tie type", I'll have to track down what book that was in.

In my mind, the big problem with DB Cooper is the sketch makes him look like a scrawny man, emaciated, in reality he was an athletic six feet. He also has a "see what you want" kind of face. Ted Bundy was seen by a lot of people, but he had a face people couldn't register as unique, and small changes in appearance produced large changes in perception.

Here's what Wikpedia has to say about Ted bundy:

Quote
Other significant obstacles for law enforcement were Bundy's generic, essentially anonymous physical features,[275] and a curious chameleon-like ability to change his appearance almost at will.[276] Early on, police complained of the futility of showing his photograph to witnesses; he looked different in virtually every photo ever taken of him.[277] In person, "... his expression would so change his whole appearance that there were moments that you weren't even sure you were looking at the same person," said Stewart Hanson, Jr., the judge in the DaRonch trial. "He [was] really a changeling."[278] Bundy was well aware of this unusual quality and he exploited it, using subtle modifications of facial hair or hairstyle to significantly alter his appearance as necessary.

This might be a major factor in why Cooper has never been tracked down. And why there are so many Cooper confessors who are, on the surface, plausible.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 07:50:26 PM
Cooper was likely a bit of a loner too.

If he died, no one missed him. The two missing persons (Lespy and Melwin) are not good Cooper candidates since neither one led the life that Kaye's tie analysis suggests Cooper lived, and their families filed missing person reports. The original investigators looked into missing persons, and none fit (as far as they were concerned)

If Cooper lived, well, he jumped into unknown territory the day before Thanksgiving. He clearly wasn't concerned about being missed by anyone on Thanksgiving day. In either case, Cooper was a good candidate to not be noticed by others.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2014, 08:10:19 PM
How do we know the clothes he wore belonged to him? perhaps the whole thing was a disguise?

I've jumped back and forth on what happened to Cooper. I'm seeing evidence of the Columbia river getting closer as time passes as to where he possibly jumped. I've stated this before. we have the plane crossing the river upstream from the money find. we have the jump time getting closer to the river. it's possible he made it, and lost the money, but it's also possible in went into the river. the water doesn't always give up it's dead.

We also have a Major from McChord stating a different flight path as Robert99 has claimed. the money separated from the plane somewhere, and some how......it can drive you bonkers... ;D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2014, 08:27:09 PM
most of you have seen this, but it shows the water dangers in the possible jump zone. this is a minute or so before crossing the Columbia. actually it shows right up to the crossing of the Columbia. this would be the 8:17 time mark if not mistaken...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4DAg3_XyRM
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on December 07, 2014, 08:29:38 PM
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Cooper was likely a bit of a loner too.

If he died, no one missed him. The two missing persons (Lespy and Melwin) are not good Cooper candidates since neither one led the life that Kaye's tie analysis suggests Cooper lived, and their families filed missing person reports. The original investigators looked into missing persons, and none fit (as far as they were concerned)

If Cooper lived, well, he jumped into unknown territory the day before Thanksgiving. He clearly wasn't concerned about being missed by anyone on Thanksgiving day. In either case, Cooper was a good candidate to not be noticed by others.

A missing persons report was not filed on Melvin Wilson until a few years ago when I entered it into NamUs. At that time my NamUs Liaison had to contact a law enforcement officer to file a report so mine and my brother's DNA could be taken and logged into CODIS.

When I spoke with Jerry Thomas, a friend of Himmelsbach. He asked Ralph if my father was looked at...Ralph checked his files and my father was not in them.

At the time of the Hijacking, Melvin was missing for two months. He was a fugitive from Minneapolis/St Paul. He was originally arrested in Wisconsin and was on Wisconsin's Central US Marshal's top ten wanted fugitive list until 2001.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2014, 08:34:04 PM
Good points Vicki. I forgot he wasn't listed yet....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 08:43:42 PM
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How do we know the clothes he wore belonged to him? perhaps the whole thing was a disguise?

I've jumped back and forth on what happened to Cooper. I'm seeing evidence of the Columbia river getting closer as time passes as to where he possibly jumped. I've stated this before. we have the plane crossing the river upstream from the money find. we have the jump time getting closer to the river. it's possible he made it, and lost the money, but it's also possible in went into the river. the water doesn't always give up it's dead.

We also have a Major from McChord stating a different flight path as Robert99 has claimed. the money separated from the plane somewhere, and some how......it can drive you bonkers... ;D

The Tina Bar clouds everyone's thinking. In reality, it tells us very little other than Cooper and the money separated at some point.

I've thought about the clothes issue too, and here's my problem: Kaye's work on the tie and tie clip showed the clip had been in place on the tie for many years. How often does someone donate a tie and tie clip, together, that they've been wearing for years at their company? Maybe the original owner died, then the tie ended up in a thrift shop, but I tend to think the thrift shop would separate the tie from the clip, since the clip is probably worth more alone.

Regardless, even if Cooper picked up the tie at a thrift shop, the tie still has information on it about Cooper's home town: It had a chemical or other plant where titanium was machined. There were no northwestern spores on the tie, so Cooper did not live in pacific northwest.

Another thing is the shoes. How many criminals would wear new shoes to heist? Especially if you expected to do a lot of walking. I don't buy it. If I was trying to do a "Man In Black" disguise, I would still wear a pair of shoes I was comfortable in that at the very least sorta matched my outfit.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 07, 2014, 08:49:58 PM
andrade1812, I like your thinking chum.
I don't think Cooper landed in the Columbia but I keep thinking it's a possibility that he left by the Columbia. That briefcase went somewhere and to me the only secure place for a wind blast exit is in that bag, tied to his midsection, hanging on to it with both hands (non-steerable chute) for dear life. That money is the most important thing to you. It's all about the money! So space had to be made for that briefcase. You put money into that briefcase and you make some space for that briefcase in the bag. How much money? I dunno, how about $5800 worth as a guess. Cooper wanted a backpack of money, he got a canvas bag, it's fact he made a handle on it. That sounds like he meant carry not bury. The only way that $5800 got to the bar is it was put there.
I think Mitchell is a really valid witness. You read his story and he's all like his hair was so black, like too black, in fact so odd that it could've been a toupee, unlikely but dyed? Cooper looked like a dweeb to him, there was something off with his shoes or socks. (What kind of legit businessman wears a dark topcoat, dark suit, dark tie and brown shoes?)
Our man Cooper is so crazy about not leaving his notes, etc that he goes and leaves a tie! The only reason he would take that tie off to me is that it's in his way, like hanging down when he's cutting the chute cords. Maybe he puts on the chute, with an "x" harness across the chest which if his tie was on, it would be as secure as all Hell. In every book/movie/picture someone does to mimic Coooper's jump, that tie is on. Why? Because it's instinct. It's secure. It's part of the businessman M.O. I think Cooper wanted those stairs down to either bail if he was rushed by anyone in the crew or needed them down so he could rush out at the area he wanted to get into somewhere. He wanted to be able to go at a split decision. To me that tie came off pre-harness and in the panic of the stairs, getting out in the area he wanted he said "fuck it" and bailed.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 09:01:12 PM
I would say Melvin Wilson is a bad suspect unless we can put him in or near a machine shop or factory working on titanium. Pictures showing him wearing a clip-on tie instead of a regular knotted tie would also be nice. Same with the tie clip. Wilson had an accent, Cooper did not. Wilson is a bad match for the FBI sketch. We should be able to get some kind of partial DNA match between Cooper's tie and the daughters. Etc, etc.

I hope the Wilson survivors get closure, and connecting him to the hijacking would help. However, the evidence is still lacking.

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on December 07, 2014, 09:08:00 PM
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I would say Melvin Wilson is a bad suspect unless we can put him in or near a machine shop or factory working on titanium. Pictures showing him wearing a clip-on tie instead of a regular knotted tie would also be nice. Same with the tie clip. Wilson had an accent, Cooper did not. Wilson is a bad match for the FBI sketch. We should be able to get some kind of partial DNA match between Cooper's tie and the daughters. Etc, etc.

I hope the Wilson survivors get closure, and connecting him to the hijacking would help. However, the evidence is still lacking.

Huh?  Wilson had an accent?

He was a printer working in a print shop. He was making counterfeit money and carving his metal plates by hand using them on an offset press. I am not sure of the composition of the plates.

I have stated this before....Bill Mitchell said the sketch does not look like the person he remembers on the plane that night. 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2014, 09:11:08 PM
I think the sketch is taken for a photo more often than a sketch in my opinion.....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 09:12:19 PM
In the Unsolved Mysteries segment on Wilson, Ruth said he had a British accent.

You'll have to ask an expert, of course, but I don't think a forger would use an expensive metal like titanium as printing plates. Not in 1970. Those plates would still be in evidence though, so it's an interesting lead.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 09:17:09 PM
Fingerprints too, Wilson should have been processed when he was first arrested. The FBI collected tons of fingerprints on that plane. Wilson's fingerprints might still be evidence if for some reason he wasn't processed.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on December 07, 2014, 09:23:06 PM
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In the Unsolved Mysteries segment on Wilson, Ruth said he had a British accent.

You'll have to ask an expert, of course, but I don't think a forger would use an expensive metal like titanium as printing plates. Not in 1970. Those plates would still be in evidence though, so it's an interesting lead.

According to the Unsolved Mysteries episode...He had a "British accent" when Ruth R. met him in the early 50's. What Unsolved did not say....he used the fake accent to impress her. He also used his fake accent while working for British Motor Corporation in the Oakland/Berkeley area. He could sell more of those fancy little cars that way. This was told to me by Ruth...his first wife.

I knew him for a few years and can not recall him having an accent. His second wife also said he did not have an accent.

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on December 07, 2014, 09:26:05 PM
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Fingerprints too, Wilson should have been processed when he was first arrested. The FBI collected tons of fingerprints on that plane. Wilson's fingerprints might still be evidence if for some reason he wasn't processed.

According to the US Marshal's in Central Wisconsin, Melvin's prints were never uploaded to the IAFIS database. They were on fingerprint cards. NamUs now has them as part of their database. However DNA and Fingerprints on file at NamUs are not routinely checked with FBI criminal cases without the FBI doing the checking.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 07, 2014, 09:30:13 PM
Let me throw something out there for fun. Feel free to chime in with anything.
Let's say all the evidence found on Cooper's tie didn't point to what he did for a living and let's include that annoying piece of pure titanium, let's say it all had to do with something Cooper built ... what would that thing be?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on December 07, 2014, 09:33:06 PM
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Let me throw something out there for fun. Feel free to chime in with anything.
Let's say all the evidence found on Cooper's tie didn't point to what he did for a living and let's include that annoying piece of pure titanium, let's say it all had to do with something Cooper built ... what would that thing be?

We can also conclude the tie, while in the plane or in evidence, could have picked up elements from its surroundings.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 09:34:08 PM
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Fingerprints too, Wilson should have been processed when he was first arrested. The FBI collected tons of fingerprints on that plane. Wilson's fingerprints might still be evidence if for some reason he wasn't processed.

According to the US Marshal's in Central Wisconsin, Melvin's prints were never uploaded to the IAFIS database. They were on fingerprint cards. NamUs now has them as part of their database. However DNA and Fingerprints on file at NamUs are not routinely checked with FBI criminal cases without the FBI doing the checking.

It's good to clear that up... Wilson was also Canadian, right? Cooper used the phrase "Negotiable American Currency" which sounds nothing like an American. Did Wilson use language in an odd [Canadian or otherwise] way?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on December 07, 2014, 09:41:39 PM
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Fingerprints too, Wilson should have been processed when he was first arrested. The FBI collected tons of fingerprints on that plane. Wilson's fingerprints might still be evidence if for some reason he wasn't processed.

According to the US Marshal's in Central Wisconsin, Melvin's prints were never uploaded to the IAFIS database. They were on fingerprint cards. NamUs now has them as part of their database. However DNA and Fingerprints on file at NamUs are not routinely checked with FBI criminal cases without the FBI doing the checking.

It's good to clear that up... Wilson was also Canadian, right? Cooper used the phrase "Negotiable American Currency" which sounds nothing like an American. Did Wilson use language in an odd [Canadian or otherwise] way?

He was not from Canada. He was born and raised in Oakland, CA. It was a lie he told his second wife. As far as I recall...he talked like everybody else in Minnesota....but I was young at the time.

Would a counterfeiter use that term?  Negotiable American Currency. Maybe...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2014, 09:55:29 PM
Carr stated this in 2007:

One of the factors in the case that has not been resolved is the missing person aspect. It would stand to reason if DB Cooper went missing, someone would miss him. That does not seem to be the case here. It seems as if no one has missed him or did not realize their missing loved one was in fact DB Cooper. That means if DB died the night he jumped he most likely was a loner with few ties to anyone or anywhere.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on December 07, 2014, 10:18:42 PM
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Let me throw something out there for fun. Feel free to chime in with anything.
Let's say all the evidence found on Cooper's tie didn't point to what he did for a living and let's include that annoying piece of pure titanium, let's say it all had to do with something Cooper built ... what would that thing be?

Golf Clubs
Watches and jewelry
The pieces of metal used on horn instruments; such as, trumpets, cornets, tubas, etc.
Airplanes, jet engines, missiles.
Dental implants and prosthetics


 


Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2014, 10:35:24 PM
Quote
I hope the Wilson survivors get closure, and connecting him to the hijacking would help. However, the evidence is still lacking.

I'm sure you guys realize Vicki is a surviving member? "Vicki Wilson"....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 11:37:46 PM
I caught on, eventually.  8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 08, 2014, 03:04:25 AM


Would a counterfeiter use that term?  Negotiable American Currency. Maybe...
[/quote]

Where does it say that Cooper asked for Negotiable  American Currency? I see this quoted all the time but I can only find "negotiable currency" in the crew notes.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 08, 2014, 03:55:16 AM
That's my understanding, too, M.  "American" got added along the way by someone.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 08, 2014, 03:56:27 AM
http://videopediaworld.com/video/91750/Unsolved-Mysteries-DB-Cooper-Part-1 (http://videopediaworld.com/video/91750/Unsolved-Mysteries-DB-Cooper-Part-1)
http://videopediaworld.com/video/91751/Unsolved-Mysteries-DB-Cooper-Part-2 (http://videopediaworld.com/video/91751/Unsolved-Mysteries-DB-Cooper-Part-2)

I'm sure you've all seen this but it's cool for me to see Flo and Scott. Don't know about how the "facts(?)" are presented here but the only thing that matters is Flo/Scott's testimony as to how antsy things were. Very different from the in control easy-going nature associated with Cooper.
Also to note, Flo's description of the bomb is a very different from the notes/305 transmissions.

(thx andrade1812)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 08, 2014, 04:05:22 AM
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Would a counterfeiter use that term?  Negotiable American Currency. Maybe...

Where does it say that Cooper asked for Negotiable  American Currency? I see this quoted all the time but I can only find "negotiable currency" in the crew notes.
[/quote]

The phrase..from the flight crew's handwritten notes written during the hijacking....was "negotiable currency".

The transcript (Scott on 305 talking) has the phrase "Wants money in negotiable American currency. Denomination not important".

The pilot notes say: "negotiable currency".

Obviously Scott embellished and added "American". Carol Abrakadabrah and Bruce Smith picked up American and ran with it ... classic case of myth building with something that Cooper himself never said.


Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 08, 2014, 06:43:19 AM
"Negotiable Currency" also is not a common American phrase. I've never heard anyone other than regular international travelers throw "negotiable" in front of currency.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 08, 2014, 08:03:56 AM
It's hard to figure out the term he implied about the money. was Cooper a international traveler? would a loner do such a thing? as usual it raises lots of questions why he said that..... :-\
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on December 08, 2014, 08:47:02 AM
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Cooper was likely a bit of a loner too.

If he died, no one missed him. The two missing persons (Lespy and Melwin) are not good Cooper candidates since neither one led the life that Kaye's tie analysis suggests Cooper lived, and their families filed missing person reports. The original investigators looked into missing persons, and none fit (as far as they were concerned)

If Cooper lived, well, he jumped into unknown territory the day before Thanksgiving. He clearly wasn't concerned about being missed by anyone on Thanksgiving day. In either case, Cooper was a good candidate to not be noticed by others.
The thing that Lepsy and Wilson share is both weren't considered "missing persons" until 2011.  At the time of the skyjacking both were considered voluntary flights and suspects in crimes in areas distant to Washington State.  Both loosely fit the skyjacker's description and neither have been seen or heard from since the skyjacking event.  IF Cooper was a no pull and ended up in the Columbia, then he would have been someone like Lepsy or Wilson, an outlier, who until recently, has been hidden in obscurity. 

As for the tie, if a guy is willing to take someone else's money, he would probably take someone else's clothes also.  I think Cooper may have done a dry-run or two, and could have easily stolen someone else's suitcase from an airport, automobile or hotel.

I just had a thought on the "russet" suit description.  Have you ever seen an old black suit (or a black concert T-shirt for that matter) that is sun  faded?  The "black" lightens up, sometimes with a reddish hue.  Maybe Cooper's suit was sun faded or over washed or lightly bleached?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 08, 2014, 02:36:41 PM
Quote
As for the tie, if a guy is willing to take someone else's money, he would probably take someone else's clothes also.  I think Cooper may have done a dry-run or two, and could have easily stolen someone else's suitcase from an airport, automobile or hotel.

When you're six feet tall, it's really hard finding the right size clothing to steal.

I'm trying to think of anytime I heard of a criminal stealing someone's clothes in order to perform a robbery... and I'm coming up blank. This has to be the least likely explanation for the evidence on Cooper's tie.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 08, 2014, 03:03:34 PM
Here's how I would judge any Cooper suspect, in the absence of physical evidence...
There needs to be a plausible explanation for Cooper's behavior and knowledge:

-Knowledge of airline terms like "airstairs"
-Knowledge of general aviation mechanics like pressurization, flaps and landing gear
-Knowledge of area around SeaTac, including driving distance times to/from McChord
-Appearance reminiscent of eyewitness descriptions
-Smart[ish]ness
-Explanation for evidence on the tie
-"Negotiable currency" comment
-Smoked, and smoked Raleigh cigarettes (casually)
-Knowledge of parachutes, packing cards, and being able to quickly and easily put on a parachute harness, and willingness to jump out of a perfectly good airplane
-Possibly a reader of the Dan Cooper comics (not in English)
-Familiarity with the No. 6 (Columbia) Dry Cell Battery
-No accent

I accept that any suspect will fall short of filling in every clue, but any suspect needs to have substantial circumstantial evidence linking him to at least a bare majority of these facts.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 08, 2014, 03:19:13 PM
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Quote
As for the tie, if a guy is willing to take someone else's money, he would probably take someone else's clothes also.  I think Cooper may have done a dry-run or two, and could have easily stolen someone else's suitcase from an airport, automobile or hotel.

When you're six feet tall, it's really hard finding the right size clothing to steal.

I'm trying to think of anytime I heard of a criminal stealing someone's clothes in order to perform a robbery... and I'm coming up blank. This has to be the least likely explanation for the evidence on Cooper's tie.

Interpretation of the clothing has always been biased - lite clothing ~ he died from exposure.

His choice of clothing may have been quite intentional. Planned to spend little time under a parachute. Bailed near civilisation. Nobody knows what resources he may have had waiting. His manner of dress, his time and place of bailing, suggests to me he was dressed appropriately and someone with a concrete plan and resources waiting. 

His is a very simple plan and he seems totally plan-oriented, to me. His plan is an escape plan first. He even tells Tina he doesn't really care about the money so keeping the money is secondary to his primary goal which is to escape. He doesn't even seem concerned about leaving evidence behind on the plane! It's an all-or-nothing plan with escape the primary goal, with or without the money. And that may be the reason he is never found! But some of his money was found...

Cooper is a goal oriented person who can focus (is used to focusing and carrying out tactical plans). His tie is merely part of his plan to help him accomplish a goal, to the extent of his knowledge and skills. How is he supposed to know that skin cells will yield dna - that kind of knowledge isn't even in his catalog of life knowledge. Making tactical attack plans is in his repertoire, and the simpler the better!

This guy was a tactical thinker with tactical experience. He keeps himself and everyone else focused and on-task right up to his leaving. The Transcripts do not convey but half of the conversations-communications Cooper made with Tina and the pilots right up to his leaving. 8:05 was not his last communication with the pilots, as the Transcripts and Rataczak report. He told Tina several times that the money was not that important to him (his primary goal). His primary mission was exorcising a personal grudge though hijacking a commercial airline and penetrating civilian and military security systems. We know part of his focus was McChord AFB. He expected the chutes to come from McChord which shows he had an awareness of how the military could play into this scenario. In my opinion he waited to jump until he was in a kind of 'transition zone' where he knew the plane would be handed off ...

The whole thing is a tactical mission as I see it. Performed by a person with some tactical training...   

His choice of that aircraft and that particular flight (recently added) are all tactical. (those facts and conditions offer a tactical advantage). His choice of where to bail is tactical also, imho.

The whole thing is tactical from beginning to end imho. (McCoy will follow Cooper and McCoy is active Ntl Guard!) 


 
   
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on December 08, 2014, 03:31:45 PM
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He doesn't even seem concerned about leaving evidence behind on the plane!

Interesting, Georger.  I would have thought the opposite.  He insisted on getting the note back.  He took his briefcase, his small sack and the extra chute.  The only thing he left was his tie and I always wondered if he took it off while he was trying to attach the money to himself.

Other than the tie was there other evidence he wasn't concerned about taking with him?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on December 08, 2014, 03:40:20 PM
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I think Mitchell is a really valid witness. You read his story and he's all like his hair was so black, like too black, in fact so odd that it could've been a toupee, unlikely but dyed?

Moriarty,
This comment struck me as a little odd.  That's only because someone at another site who has latched on this piece of Mitchell's comment because he's trying to fit a square peg (a short bald man) into a round hole (the Cooper description).  Mitchell's line felt like a throwaway comment.  What attracted you to that line?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 08, 2014, 03:55:57 PM
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He doesn't even seem concerned about leaving evidence behind on the plane!

Interesting, Georger.  I would have thought the opposite.  He insisted on getting the note back.  He took his briefcase, his small sack and the extra chute.  The only thing he left was his tie and I always wondered if he took it off while he was trying to attach the money to himself.

Other than the tie was there other evidence he wasn't concerned about taking with him?

The note 'has' his finger prints. That nails him. He must get that back if he can. Im surprised he even let her have it to take to the front. But they aren't going to argue with him giving it back!

I think he left the tie on purpose. No further need for it, and nobody has claimed they pulled a print off that clip?
Just skin cells off the tie.

For a number of reasons I still think you have to take Flo's comment ' he looked Latin' seriously. (Was it he looked Latin, or he acted Latin, or both) ?  Flo looks Latin ? Was Flo's reaction an empathy subliminal based on her own background and recognition patterns she has? We know Tina doesn;t have a Latin background and she the novice on that flight - Flo had a much broader experience with people than Tina, by comparison.

If Cooper was a tactically trained person, perhaps with foreign ties, I can understand why the FBI would be so reluctant to talk about this or release actual documents. If Cooper was Cuban or had ties to Cuba, that hijacking could go straight to Castro!

I think Flo sensed a foreign connection of some kind.

Cooper made one important tactical choice, right off the bat! He was attracted to Flo to begin with, he made his initial contacts with her, but then he switched his attentions to Tina once he found out Flo was not fully compliant!

He sensed an affinity of some kind with Flo at the start (partly based on her proximity to him) but then discovered her resistive nature and switched his focus to Tina, the more compliant and less worldly@! Later he rejected Flo and literally commanded he wanted Tina to be the one to stay with him. He had enough social savvy to know who would be compliant and who would not. That was an important socially tactical move ... for all concerned, based squarely on Cooper's social skills and experience.
 
     

   


Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 08, 2014, 04:36:29 PM
Georger:
Obviously Scott embellished and added "American". Carol Abrakadabrah and Bruce Smith picked up American and ran with it ... classic case of myth building with something that Cooper himself never said.

Cousin Brucie:
I ain't runnin' wid it. Where did you get dat, G?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 08, 2014, 04:50:44 PM
Sad news.

Bill Mitchell called me today saying that he wants no further contact with me or anyone else in the Cooper discussion. Apparently Jo contacted him this weekend and caused a stink.

As I wrote on the DZ, I've learned a valuable lesson, part of which is that madness must be respected. The winds of the Vortex are powerful, and can be very destructive. Hence, I will be less involved with those of Cooper World with demonstrated instabilities.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on December 08, 2014, 04:56:23 PM
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He doesn't even seem concerned about leaving evidence behind on the plane!

Interesting, Georger.  I would have thought the opposite.  He insisted on getting the note back.  He took his briefcase, his small sack and the extra chute.  The only thing he left was his tie and I always wondered if he took it off while he was trying to attach the money to himself.

Other than the tie was there other evidence he wasn't concerned about taking with him?

Flo looks Latin ? Was Flo's reaction an empathy subliminal based on her own background and recognition patterns she has?
 
 

Florence's mother was born in Palompon, Leyte, Philippines. Florence is not Latin.
I will pm you my source.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 08, 2014, 05:59:52 PM
Ah, developing a psychological profile of Tina and Flo - yippee!

As usual G, I disagree with much of what you postulate.

Here's what I know of these gals, based mostly upon GG's writings, Galen and the gang (Tosaw, etc) and my own ramblings through the Mucklow clan:

Florence was a state beauty queen from Arkansas who was on probation at the time of the skyjacking for gaining too much weight. Was she worldly-wise?  Hmmmm. More than Tina?

Tina was born in a working class neighborhood north of Philly and her parents divorced in the 1960s. She went to boarding school in Philly, and afterwards went to flight attendant academy in Minneapolis and then worked for NWO. She brought her bible along, and it's not known if it was Catholic or Lutheran, or what. She proselytized a bunch and drove Flo crazy.

Tina and Flo roomed together on layovers. Flo, 23 was one year older than Tina, 22, at the time of the skyjacking. The purser, Alice Hancock, was 24, btw.

Written accounts, especially GG's, indicate that Flo got overwhelmed by Cooper and the notion of getting blown up in the skyjacking. She was rattled and Tina stepped in to control the situation. This scenario is confirmed by Ratajczak, who told me that Tina saved his bacon that day, and that Tina "was one in a million. She was the brains of the outfit."

This is further confirmed by the post-hijacking interviews. Flo is clearly traumatized and anxious. Tina is articulate, comfortable in front of the cameras, and displays a strong concern towards her passengers.

Was DB Cooper Hispanic?  Maybe. I don't discount Flo's speculation or association. An agent of Fidel?  Wow, G - and you call me a conspiratorialist way-out-on-a-limb!

But something happened post-hijacking. Tina has some sort of psychological event that her friend from high school, Dr Eisenhower-Turner, characterizes as a major trauma. Tina goes into the convent until 1991, and then lives as a recluse, essentially, until recently when the Eugene Weekly calls her a "Happening People."

Nevertheless, Tina is clearly an angry women these days, and slammed her front door in my face three times in 2011.  Flo won't return my phone calls or emails, either. She is not even responding to Jo, and thus is one of the few principles in Norjak to escape Mrs. Cooper's clutches.

Who is more socially aware?  Hmmm, they both sound pretty fragile to me.

Who is Danny Boy?  I don't know. But, he ain't the super white-boy, Kenny C, that I know.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 08, 2014, 06:41:44 PM
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Sad news.

Bill Mitchell called me today saying that he wants no further contact with me or anyone else in the Cooper discussion. Apparently Jo contacted him this weekend and caused a stink.

As I wrote on the DZ, I've learned a valuable lesson, part of which is that madness must be respected. The winds of the Vortex are powerful, and can be very destructive. Hence, I will be less involved with those of Cooper World with demonstrated instabilities.

You know how Jo operates, what she would do and why, and yet you hung it all out there for Jo to play with and subvert. Business as usual (decades old!) in Jolandt.

You could complain to Sangiro and have him kick you off Dropzone as further punishment ... which is what Jo and Blevins and Cameron want. Take the licking and go on posting on the Hellzone.

There is nothing literally anyone can say or do. It was obvious what she would do. It's what she has done to people countless times including Larry Carr, and always does to people she thinks pose a threat to her. A threat can be nothing more than stealing attention away from Jo. If you are going to play with Cretans expect a punch in the eye
or worse!

Multiple calls to Mitchell from Weber is all it would take. The price of getting Weber off his back is you! Mitchell will now discover Jo is not playing games. She will continue to call and harass "him" in turn! He will discover that dropping you was only the first price he has to pay for letting Jo in his life. Jo wants Mitchell to name Duane as DB Cooper! Jo has only started making calls to Mitchell!  :)  It has nothing to do with you - you are simply the present occasion of what she is up to and wants.  Mitchell is in for a ride! That may be why he said he wants nothing to do with the Cooper matter at all!

If Jo had her way she would bury us all! She needs others but others are all expendable.

Where have you been all these years ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? You know what makes her tick!


 

   
 

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 08, 2014, 06:51:08 PM
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Ah, developing a psychological profile of Tina and Flo - yippee!

As usual G, I disagree with much of what you postulate.

Here's what I know of these gals, based mostly upon GG's writings, Galen and the gang (Tosaw, etc) and my own ramblings through the Mucklow clan:

Florence was a state beauty queen from Arkansas who was on probation at the time of the skyjacking for gaining too much weight. Was she worldly-wise?  Hmmmm. More than Tina?

Tina was born in a working class neighborhood north of Philly and her parents divorced in the 1960s. She went to boarding school in Philly, and afterwards went to flight attendant academy in Minneapolis and then worked for NWO. She brought her bible along, and it's not known if it was Catholic or Lutheran, or what. She proselytized a bunch and drove Flo crazy.

Tina and Flo roomed together on layovers. Flo, 23 was one year older than Tina, 22, at the time of the skyjacking. The purser, Alice Hancock, was 24, btw.

Written accounts, especially GG's, indicate that Flo got overwhelmed by Cooper and the notion of getting blown up in the skyjacking. She was rattled and Tina stepped in to control the situation. This scenario is confirmed by Ratajczak, who told me that Tina saved his bacon that day, and that Tina "was one in a million. She was the brains of the outfit."

This is further confirmed by the post-hijacking interviews. Flo is clearly traumatized and anxious. Tina is articulate, comfortable in front of the cameras, and displays a strong concern towards her passengers.

Was DB Cooper Hispanic?  Maybe. I don't discount Flo's speculation or association. An agent of Fidel?  Wow, G - and you call me a conspiratorialist way-out-on-a-limb!

But something happened post-hijacking. Tina has some sort of psychological event that her friend from high school, Dr Eisenhower-Turner, characterizes as a major trauma. Tina goes into the convent until 1991, and then lives as a recluse, essentially, until recently when the Eugene Weekly calls her a "Happening People."

Nevertheless, Tina is clearly an angry women these days, and slammed her front door in my face three times in 2011.  Flo won't return my phone calls or emails, either. She is not even responding to Jo, and thus is one of the few principles in Norjak to escape Mrs. Cooper's clutches.

Who is more socially aware?  Hmmm, they both sound pretty fragile to me.

Who is Danny Boy?  I don't know. But, he ain't the super white-boy, Kenny C, that I know.

Calm down. Your lunatic side is showing.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 08, 2014, 06:52:02 PM
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He doesn't even seem concerned about leaving evidence behind on the plane!

Interesting, Georger.  I would have thought the opposite.  He insisted on getting the note back.  He took his briefcase, his small sack and the extra chute.  The only thing he left was his tie and I always wondered if he took it off while he was trying to attach the money to himself.

Other than the tie was there other evidence he wasn't concerned about taking with him?

Flo looks Latin ? Was Flo's reaction an empathy subliminal based on her own background and recognition patterns she has?
 
 

Florence's mother was born in Palompon, Leyte, Philippines. Florence is not Latin.
I will pm you my source.

That explains her sensitivity to a foreign presentation, maybe.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 08, 2014, 07:10:05 PM
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Sad news.

Bill Mitchell called me today saying that he wants no further contact with me or anyone else in the Cooper discussion. Apparently Jo contacted him this weekend and caused a stink.

As I wrote on the DZ, I've learned a valuable lesson, part of which is that madness must be respected. The winds of the Vortex are powerful, and can be very destructive. Hence, I will be less involved with those of Cooper World with demonstrated instabilities.

You know how Jo operates, what she would do and why, and yet you hung it all out there for Jo to play with and subvert. Business as usual (decades old!) in Jolandt.

You could complain to Sangiro and have him kick you off Dropzone as further punishment ... which is what Jo and Blevins and Cameron want. Take the licking and go on posting on the Hellzone.

There is nothing literally anyone can say or do. It was obvious what she would do. It's what she has done to people countless times including Larry Carr, and always does to people she thinks pose a threat to her. A threat can be nothing more than stealing attention away from Jo. If you are going to play with Cretans expect a punch in the eye
or worse!

Multiple calls to Mitchell from Weber is all it would take. The price of getting Weber off his back is you! Mitchell will now discover Jo is not playing games. She will continue to call and harass "him" in turn! He will discover that dropping you was only the first price he has to pay for letting Jo in his life. Jo wants Mitchell to name Duane as DB Cooper! Jo has only started making calls to Mitchell!  :)  It has nothing to do with you - you are simply the present occasion of what she is up to and wants.  Mitchell is in for a ride! That may be why he said he wants nothing to do with the Cooper matter at all!

If Jo had her way she would bury us all! She needs others but others are all expendable.

Where have you been all these years ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? You know what makes her tick!


 

   
 

I concur. I learned a hard lesson.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 09, 2014, 01:35:53 AM
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Sad news.

Bill Mitchell called me today saying that he wants no further contact with me or anyone else in the Cooper discussion. Apparently Jo contacted him this weekend and caused a stink.

As I wrote on the DZ, I've learned a valuable lesson, part of which is that madness must be respected. The winds of the Vortex are powerful, and can be very destructive. Hence, I will be less involved with those of Cooper World with demonstrated instabilities.

You know how Jo operates, what she would do and why, and yet you hung it all out there for Jo to play with and subvert. Business as usual (decades old!) in Jolandt.

You could complain to Sangiro and have him kick you off Dropzone as further punishment ... which is what Jo and Blevins and Cameron want. Take the licking and go on posting on the Hellzone.

There is nothing literally anyone can say or do. It was obvious what she would do. It's what she has done to people countless times including Larry Carr, and always does to people she thinks pose a threat to her. A threat can be nothing more than stealing attention away from Jo. If you are going to play with Cretans expect a punch in the eye
or worse!

Multiple calls to Mitchell from Weber is all it would take. The price of getting Weber off his back is you! Mitchell will now discover Jo is not playing games. She will continue to call and harass "him" in turn! He will discover that dropping you was only the first price he has to pay for letting Jo in his life. Jo wants Mitchell to name Duane as DB Cooper! Jo has only started making calls to Mitchell!  :)  It has nothing to do with you - you are simply the present occasion of what she is up to and wants.  Mitchell is in for a ride! That may be why he said he wants nothing to do with the Cooper matter at all!

If Jo had her way she would bury us all! She needs others but others are all expendable.

Where have you been all these years ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? You know what makes her tick!


 

   
 

I concur. I learned a hard lesson.

Give it some time. I will PM you with a suggestion. Jo probably now calculates Mitchell owes her a favor, or two or three or 900!  :)  There is still time, on your side.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 09, 2014, 10:37:55 PM
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I think Mitchell is a really valid witness. You read his story and he's all like his hair was so black, like too black, in fact so odd that it could've been a toupee, unlikely but dyed?

Moriarty,
This comment struck me as a little odd.  That's only because someone at another site who has latched on this piece of Mitchell's comment because he's trying to fit a square peg (a short bald man) into a round hole (the Cooper description).  Mitchell's line felt like a throwaway comment.  What attracted you to that line?

Look at Mitchell's account of Cooper. For the record, a short bald man as Cooper? ... (making the facts fit the theory, ugh)

"So...he was slight, he had, I mean his hair looked, I mean I thought his hair...I mean I really picked on him ‘cause like I said you’re up in the plane for over three hours and nothing to do. And he had a white shirt, skinny little tie, you know, suit, and he didn’t look like, an executive and not to be getting all that attention.”

". but then and I said I remember...to the FBI I said that, you know, his hair could easily have been dyed or a toupee or something. ‘Cause I mean it looked awful."

I don't for a second believe Cooper had a toupee. Good luck with that theory but you ever seen a guy 45-55 years old who dyes his hair black? It's not black, it's jet black, too black, like UNNATURAL black and that's what I think Mitchell picked up on.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 09, 2014, 10:42:14 PM
What do you think about all the current suspects, Weber, Christiansen, LD Cooper to name a few?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 09, 2014, 10:42:55 PM
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This is further confirmed by the post-hijacking interviews. Flo is clearly traumatized and anxious. Tina is articulate, comfortable in front of the cameras, and displays a strong concern towards her passengers.


I hate to be a dog with a bone but "post-hijacking interviews." Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! Christmas is coming up you guys!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 09, 2014, 11:00:12 PM

Quote

Flo looks Latin ? Was Flo's reaction an empathy subliminal based on her own background and recognition patterns she has?
 
 

When you said that my instant reaction was forget it.
Quote
Florence's mother was born in Palompon, Leyte, Philippines. Florence is not Latin.
I will pm you my source.

Then you said that and I was instantly like "what!?!"
The Phillipines, total spanish colony, every Phillipino is still a Renato, Frederico, Patricia ...  lots of Spanish names. A Phillipina household would recognize someone of Latin decent.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 09, 2014, 11:30:33 PM
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He doesn't even seem concerned about leaving evidence behind on the plane!

Interesting, Georger.  I would have thought the opposite.  He insisted on getting the note back.  He took his briefcase, his small sack and the extra chute.  The only thing he left was his tie and I always wondered if he took it off while he was trying to attach the money to himself.

Other than the tie was there other evidence he wasn't concerned about taking with him?

The note 'has' his finger prints. That nails him. He must get that back if he can. Im surprised he even let her have it to take to the front. But they aren't going to argue with him giving it back!

I think he left the tie on purpose. No further need for it, and nobody has claimed they pulled a print off that clip?
Just skin cells off the tie.

For a number of reasons I still think you have to take Flo's comment ' he looked Latin' seriously. (Was it he looked Latin, or he acted Latin, or both) ?  Flo looks Latin ? Was Flo's reaction an empathy subliminal based on her own background and recognition patterns she has? We know Tina doesn;t have a Latin background and she the novice on that flight - Flo had a much broader experience with people than Tina, by comparison.

If Cooper was a tactically trained person, perhaps with foreign ties, I can understand why the FBI would be so reluctant to talk about this or release actual documents. If Cooper was Cuban or had ties to Cuba, that hijacking could go straight to Castro!

I think Flo sensed a foreign connection of some kind.

Cooper made one important tactical choice, right off the bat! He was attracted to Flo to begin with, he made his initial contacts with her, but then he switched his attentions to Tina once he found out Flo was not fully compliant!

He sensed an affinity of some kind with Flo at the start (partly based on her proximity to him) but then discovered her resistive nature and switched his focus to Tina, the more compliant and less worldly@! Later he rejected Flo and literally commanded he wanted Tina to be the one to stay with him. He had enough social savvy to know who would be compliant and who would not. That was an important socially tactical move ... for all concerned, based squarely on Cooper's social skills and experience.
 
     

 

I think that's a deadly accurate interpretation. Cooper's at the back of the aircraft, against a wall where no one can sneak up on you. The farthest position away from the crew, away from the passengers. He's there to stay away from anyone rushing him, getting the case/bomb, as he has no where to go in side a plane, he has the greatest time to react, threaten, whatever. Instinctively he wants the attendant most compliant, less likely to spook everyone, calm to be the go-between and physically the less likely to grab at the bomb and be the easiest to beat up if it comes to that.

The sunglasses used to bug me, people always thinking it's so nobody would recognize him but who wouldn't notice the only dude on the plane wearing wrap around shades. I started to shift my thinking on the glasses (disguise) from outside to inside to inside to outside. I think Cooper felt comforted by the sunglasses. He could stare, shift his eyes, notice passengers actions, constantly scan without anyone seeing his him. You know how on Halloween timid what's-his-name turns into a killer outgoing drunken howling wolf? I think the sunglasses are Cooper's emotional mask.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 09, 2014, 11:41:27 PM
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What do you think about all the current suspects, Weber, Christiansen, LD Cooper to name a few?

None of them work.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 10, 2014, 12:55:15 AM
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Quote

Flo looks Latin ? Was Flo's reaction an empathy subliminal based on her own background and recognition patterns she has?
 
 

When you said that my instant reaction was forget it.
Quote
Florence's mother was born in Palompon, Leyte, Philippines. Florence is not Latin.
I will pm you my source.

Then you said that and I was instantly like "what!?!"
The Phillipines, total spanish colony, every Phillipino is still a Renato, Frederico, Patricia ...  lots of Spanish names. A Phillipina household would recognize someone of Latin decent.

That's correct. It was a Spanish colony for years.

More importantly, it's Flo's cultural background that matters here. Her sensitivity to non-American mannerisms, even physical stances the way people hold themselves and use their body language, it's an attitudinal thing that leaks through. It's subjective but very real. (Like picking the only American out of a large crowd at a market in Istambul, and the guy turns out to be your father you haven't seen in 20 years!).

Even if Flo's background is Asian vs Spanish it is still a foreign cultural exposure one uses in negotiating socially, for the rest of one's life. That makes Flo a different "detector" than Tina, based on cultural backgrounds. That is my point. (All of us have and use social detection programs were acquired as children, culturally).

     
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 10, 2014, 07:02:47 AM
it appears the Christiansen saga is growing. it's starting to sound like Marla's story. he is claiming a 12 year old witnessed the creation of the bomb. more super memory surfacing. he claims people don't know how to investigate? would the police, or the FBI provide people with all there known evidence? he always dumps everything evidence wise right in there laps.

what ever she claims to have seen was for seconds. how was she able to remember this moment in time? that's similar to Jo remembering a trash throwing incident 40 years later. and seemingly in great detail?

Blevins likes to quickly shoot down Robert99 and his theory of the flight path, but fails to note things said about Christiansen.


"No matter how much someone wants to put DB Cooper's height at 5'8" will never change the fact he was reported to be 6'. You can certainly say it's so but you have to have articulable fact to support the dismissal of the witnesses credibility. But if you discredit the witness on one piece of her statement you may have to discredit all, you can't have it both ways."

This will be considered "Trash Talk" by Mr. Blevins.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 10, 2014, 08:20:15 AM
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it appears the Christiansen saga is growing. it's starting to sound like Marla's story. he is claiming a 12 year old witnessed the creation of the bomb. more super memory surfacing. he claims people don't know how to investigate? would the police, or the FBI provide people with all there known evidence? he always dumps everything evidence wise right in there laps.

what ever she claims to have seen was for seconds. how was she able to remember this moment in time? that's similar to Jo remembering a trash throwing incident 40 years later. and seemingly in great detail?

Blevins likes to quickly shoot down Robert99 and his theory of the flight path, but fails to note things said about Christiansen.


"No matter how much someone wants to put DB Cooper's height at 5'8" will never change the fact he was reported to be 6'. You can certainly say it's so but you have to have articulable fact to support the dismissal of the witnesses credibility. But if you discredit the witness on one piece of her statement you may have to discredit all, you can't have it both ways."

This will be considered "Trash Talk" by Mr. Blevins.

Trash talk is all it is because it's total nonsense, again.

Blevins says: 'the 12 year old saw something', the something shall remain a mystery until Blevins reveals it.
But 'the something', Blevins sayz, was "an act of genius on Kenny's part". A clever way to disguise "a bomb" which presumably does not look like a bomb ... or a boxcar locomotive, or a camel in heat, either ! Then Blevins explains how he "saw it" (what Kenny was doing and intended), which coincidentally is another act of "genius" this time on Blevins' part. In other words it takes a genius to know and top a genius, all conveyed through the eyes of a 12 year old now how old? 

Then Blevins adds his usual signature card plat de résistance saithe the Prophet, The Right Reverend Blevins:

Frankly, some of you can't be trusted. This is also another thing I warned Geestman's family about.
I needn't have bothered. I found out when I interviewed them that some of them lurk at Dropzone once in a while. They are more than fully informed about Cooperland.

This weekend, I will provide a representative from a certain film company all files and un-edited information we have on Kenny Christiansen and company. After that, we will provide an updated report on Christiansen (containing basically the same things) to the Seattle FBI, along with Lyle Christiansen's DNA profile, so they can compare it to the profile they have from the tie.

I told you I would give it to you straight. The truth on Kenny is the only thing that matters to me. And I think we may have our man, after all. Smile. :)

(This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Dec 10, 2014, 1:13 AM)


These episodes are sounding more and more like Adolph Hitler speeches every day. Who will he condemn and proclamate about next?

Hello Muddah.
Hello Fadduh.
Here I am at
Camp Grenada!
 ;)

The very guy who screamed for five years at the top of his lung that eye witness accounts can't be trusted has now come up with this - the eye witness account of a twelve year old!


Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on December 10, 2014, 09:54:36 AM
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it appears the Christiansen saga is growing. it's starting to sound like Marla's story. he is claiming a 12 year old witnessed the creation of the bomb. more super memory surfacing. he claims people don't know how to investigate? would the police, or the FBI provide people with all there known evidence? he always dumps everything evidence wise right in there laps.

what ever she claims to have seen was for seconds. how was she able to remember this moment in time? that's similar to Jo remembering a trash throwing incident 40 years later. and seemingly in great detail?

Blevins likes to quickly shoot down Robert99 and his theory of the flight path, but fails to note things said about Christiansen.


"No matter how much someone wants to put DB Cooper's height at 5'8" will never change the fact he was reported to be 6'. You can certainly say it's so but you have to have articulable fact to support the dismissal of the witnesses credibility. But if you discredit the witness on one piece of her statement you may have to discredit all, you can't have it both ways."

This will be considered "Trash Talk" by Mr. Blevins.

Robert now is claiming it was Mitchell who claimed the hijacker was no more than 5'9".  I don't believe that was Mitchell who said that.  In fact, I don't remember it being someone other than "one of the witnesses".  Does anyone remember where that quote came from?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 10, 2014, 03:59:10 PM
the only witness that matters in the description of Cooper's height would be Tina. she stated she had to look up at Cooper, not eye to eye! it's a hurdle he can't get over no matter what the witnesses say, or claim!

Tina Mucklow  5' 8"
Kenneth Christiansen  5' 8"

Game over.... 8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 10, 2014, 04:02:25 PM
Quote
Robert now is claiming it was Mitchell who claimed the hijacker was no more than 5'9".  I don't believe that was Mitchell who said that.  In fact, I don't remember it being someone other than "one of the witnesses".  Does anyone remember where that quote came from?

I don't think he seen Cooper standing up. I'll look at the WSHS interview....I'll give him the 5' 9" if he can accept Mitchell already stating Kenny was not Cooper!

Funny this has come up while we were discussing the bomb on another thread here?  :-\ :-\ :-\
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 10, 2014, 04:21:00 PM
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Quote
Robert now is claiming it was Mitchell who claimed the hijacker was no more than 5'9".  I don't believe that was Mitchell who said that.  In fact, I don't remember it being someone other than "one of the witnesses".  Does anyone remember where that quote came from?

I don't think he seen Cooper standing up. I'll look at the WSHS interview....I'll give him the 5' 9" if he can accept Mitchell already stating Kenny was not Cooper!

Funny this has come up while we were discussing the bomb on another thread here?  :-\ :-\ :-\

If Blevins and Weber get their way, Cooper will be a duck ... if they need it!

There were multiple witnesses who gave testimony on Cooper's relative height.

What we are discussing here is Blevinisism and Weberism .... NOT COOPER HEIGHT!  :)

Why would anyone be bogged down by that FOR FIVE HORRIFIC YEARS!. Blevins must be right. We are bound by fear and loathing and hatred. Our brains have rotted! ;)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 10, 2014, 04:23:32 PM
Quote
Margie Geestman bailed off to with all that money she got from the State of Washington's Fish and Game Dept

Apparently you can't sell a house for a fair price from the Fish & Game Dept. without telling them were you are going with there money? Mr. Blevins has shown many times how privacy means nothing to him, except when it involves him! how has it become the Fish & Games money?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 10, 2014, 04:31:07 PM
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Quote
Margie Geestman bailed off to with all that money she got from the State of Washington's Fish and Game Dept

Apparently you can't sell a house for a fair price from the Fish & Game Dept. without telling them were you are going with there money? Mr. Blevins has shown many times how privacy means nothing to him, except when it involves him! how has it become the Fish & Games money?

In the right hands, anything can become (and is) anything! It only depends on what they want.

Fortunately, idiots and clowns are a dead giveaway! They want to control the whole conversation.

Facts, do not mean anything to these folks. These people are not about facts. These people are about control and they will employ any means to get that. That is the whole history of the Cooper thread since Nov 24, 1971!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 10, 2014, 04:39:27 PM
Some of these witnesses for Cooper are amazing with the details they can provide about November 24, 1971, but ask them what happened the day before, or the day after and you get...........flat line......clear.......hit'em again ;D ;D

I'll give up on the FBI if they accept the DNA that has been mailed from state to state, and in multiple hands that shouldn't be anywhere near such evidence, sealed or not. it's not the proper measures for a Federal Investigation of evidence recovery.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 10, 2014, 05:20:13 PM
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it appears the Christiansen saga is growing. it's starting to sound like Marla's story. he is claiming a 12 year old witnessed the creation of the bomb. more super memory surfacing. he claims people don't know how to investigate? would the police, or the FBI provide people with all there known evidence? he always dumps everything evidence wise right in there laps.

what ever she claims to have seen was for seconds. how was she able to remember this moment in time? that's similar to Jo remembering a trash throwing incident 40 years later. and seemingly in great detail?

Blevins likes to quickly shoot down Robert99 and his theory of the flight path, but fails to note things said about Christiansen.


"No matter how much someone wants to put DB Cooper's height at 5'8" will never change the fact he was reported to be 6'. You can certainly say it's so but you have to have articulable fact to support the dismissal of the witnesses credibility. But if you discredit the witness on one piece of her statement you may have to discredit all, you can't have it both ways."

This will be considered "Trash Talk" by Mr. Blevins.

Robert now is claiming it was Mitchell who claimed the hijacker was no more than 5'9".  I don't believe that was Mitchell who said that.  In fact, I don't remember it being someone other than "one of the witnesses".  Does anyone remember where that quote came from?


'Not more than 5'9"' stuff may come from the passenger Robert Gregory. His testimony in the FBI files is an outlier - russet jacket, marcelled hair, 5-8, etc. - and is being touted by GG, for reasons I can only speculate upon. The FBI files that GG cites also place Gregory sitting "in the same row as the skyjacker."

Why GG accepts this obvious clerical error is mystifying (or not.)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 10, 2014, 05:28:16 PM
As I always mention. the passengers didn't have a reason to remember him. Mitchell was the closets so he had a little more vivid memory (at the time) the others didn't, or couldn't of had a lot of time to look at him. Mitchell sat next to him. the rest of the passengers were in front of Cooper.

Does anyone remember the people in line while you checked out at a store today, or yesterday?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 10, 2014, 06:23:29 PM
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As I always mention. the passengers didn't have a reason to remember him. Mitchell was the closets so he had a little more vivid memory (at the time) the others didn't, or couldn't of had a lot of time to look at him. Mitchell sat next to him. the rest of the passengers were in front of Cooper.

Does anyone remember the people in line while you checked out at a store today, or yesterday?

Your last point is valid. He stood in front of the ticket agent, next to the person taking his ticket, next to the people boarding, next to the stews (all of them), next to Mitchell in addition to sitting next to him, ...

The physical description is not in doubt. The FBI said there was close agreement between the witnesses.

The only thing in doubt is the cranks trying to jury-rig and question the description, to fit their own clients into their fictional claims and social media program! And there is nothing new about that intentional fictional fact mongering.

 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 10, 2014, 07:05:48 PM
I kind of follow the same as Carr. I don't know at the moment, I'll have to check, but he claims they focused on people who had contact with Cooper. the main ones being the stews. I'm doubting some of the passengers for reason of the ability to recall.

The passengers fall into the same category as someone who witnessed a crime lasting seconds. the descriptions are often wrong, not always, but the question of recalling is suspect in my opinion. how many passengers placed Cooper under 40? if several did it's a reason they lowered it to mid 40's that seemingly changed from what the notes read during the crime.

50 years old
50-60 years old.

The ticket agent didn't have a reason to recall him either. he also claims the sketch doesn't fit. Flo in my opinion was probably the most traumatized by this event. wasn't it her who always looked under her car for a bomb? and like the ticket agent she also doesn't feel the sketch matches? she took the description of basically a full head of hair (parted on the left) and thinned it out combing it straight back? the only door this opened was LD Cooper? (same hair)

Am I that far off?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on December 10, 2014, 07:51:25 PM
SHUTTER: "The passengers fall into the same category as someone who witnessed a crime lasting seconds".

I think you're even being generous here. Someone who witnesses a crime lasting only a few seconds, still has a few seconds in which they realize they are witnessing a crime. But, the Norjack passengers didn't know about the hijacking until they had left the plane. Thus, they had zero reason to make any mental notes about Cooper while on the plane with him.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on December 10, 2014, 07:55:57 PM
I made the following post earlier today at DZ. I'm reposting it here because I think it fits the topic currently being discussed:


Re: [ParrotheadVol] Phony...AND Baloney [In reply to]   Quote | Reply | Report Spam
I just finished watching a documentary on Authur Leigh Allen, who was the primary suspect in the Zodiac Killer case. Although the show was about a Zodiac suspect, there was a quote at the end that certainly applies to the DB Cooper case and the "suspects" in that case including, but certainly not limited to, one Kenneth Christiansen. The quote comes from Dr. Kim Rossmo, who is Research Professor, Department of Criminal Justice at Texas State University.

Dr. Rossmo says the following:

"It's very important, and I think that this is something that has been forgotten about in the Zodiac case, It's very important to let the evidence drive the suspects, not let the suspects drive the evidence. What I mean by that is we evaluate our suspects by our known reliable physical evidence. We don't look at a good suspect that we think we have a personal interest in or a particular theory that we favor and then start to re-interpret the physical evidence. That's not how you do a case, that's gotten a lot of people into trouble in the whole Jack The Ripper case, one of the most famous unsolved serial murder investigations and we tend to see now books with various titles full about how they've solved the case, etc. But the actual fact is they tend to be more text books of how not to do a criminal investigation. It's important for any analyst or investigator, profiler or detective or anyone who is seeking to determine the truth, and let's throw in judges and scientists here too, is to come as unbiased as possible, look through all the facts and the data, and make the best determination at the end of the day. But if we've made our determination before hand, the psychological research is very clear, try as we might, we become locked into circular patterns of thinking and we keep returning to what we want to think rather than what the evidence suggests that we should think.

So, if we're going to evaluate someone like Author Leigh Allen, we have to consider all of the ways he doesn't match the profile of the Zodiac".

I also found another quote recently (again from the Zodiac case) that I think applies. This was a second hand quote attributed to a Lt Bruton of SFPD talking about Zidiac suspects and circumstantial evidence in October 1999:

"You could open a page of the telephone book at random, throw a dart, investigate the person it lands on, and build up a good case against him".
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 10, 2014, 08:18:22 PM
I seen it earlier, excellent post! I believe this could go into the 101  thread.

It seems to go against what some "over there" tend to preach to others with volumes of knowledge with investigation skills  ;D 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on December 10, 2014, 09:32:32 PM
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I made the following post earlier today at DZ. I'm reposting it here because I think it fits the topic currently being discussed:


Re: [ParrotheadVol] Phony...AND Baloney [In reply to]   Quote | Reply | Report Spam
I just finished watching a documentary on Authur Leigh Allen, who was the primary suspect in the Zodiac Killer case. Although the show was about a Zodiac suspect, there was a quote at the end that certainly applies to the DB Cooper case and the "suspects" in that case including, but certainly not limited to, one Kenneth Christiansen. The quote comes from Dr. Kim Rossmo, who is Research Professor, Department of Criminal Justice at Texas State University.

Dr. Rossmo says the following:

"It's very important, and I think that this is something that has been forgotten about in the Zodiac case, It's very important to let the evidence drive the suspects, not let the suspects drive the evidence. What I mean by that is we evaluate our suspects by our known reliable physical evidence. We don't look at a good suspect that we think we have a personal interest in or a particular theory that we favor and then start to re-interpret the physical evidence. That's not how you do a case, that's gotten a lot of people into trouble in the whole Jack The Ripper case, one of the most famous unsolved serial murder investigations and we tend to see now books with various titles full about how they've solved the case, etc. But the actual fact is they tend to be more text books of how not to do a criminal investigation. It's important for any analyst or investigator, profiler or detective or anyone who is seeking to determine the truth, and let's throw in judges and scientists here too, is to come as unbiased as possible, look through all the facts and the data, and make the best determination at the end of the day. But if we've made our determination before hand, the psychological research is very clear, try as we might, we become locked into circular patterns of thinking and we keep returning to what we want to think rather than what the evidence suggests that we should think.

So, if we're going to evaluate someone like Author Leigh Allen, we have to consider all of the ways he doesn't match the profile of the Zodiac".

I also found another quote recently (again from the Zodiac case) that I think applies. This was a second hand quote attributed to a Lt Bruton of SFPD talking about Zidiac suspects and circumstantial evidence in October 1999:

"You could open a page of the telephone book at random, throw a dart, investigate the person it lands on, and build up a good case against him".

That's interesting....I read Vincent Bugliosi's book (all 1600 pages of it) on the assassination of John F. Kennedy.  He dedicates a whole chapter to the movie JFK and New Orleans district attorney Jim Garrison.  He describes Garrison of doing exactly what you describe -- identify a suspect and try to build a case against him.  Another theory he used was "proximity" -- people who lived or worked in the same general area as the suspect were likely involved as well.

 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 10, 2014, 10:00:36 PM
Building a story is more like it, rather than building a case.

We have a 12 year old girl briefly seeing something that she can recall 40+ years later? who will win the super memory game, Marla, Jo, or 12 year old girl remembers bomb?

Possible coin collection prior to the crime, poor old Kenny?

Clocks are only used on bombs when setting off the charge at a certain time. Cooper couldn't use that option.

Now, we have the Geestmans snooping around Dropzone? they need to be sniffing around the FBI telling them, and not reading about what others are claiming? makes no sense.

This is starting to sound like advertisement for the DB Cooper thread. nobody is there anymore.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on December 10, 2014, 10:25:10 PM
"Possible coin collection prior to the crime, poor old Kenny?"

Exactly. I thought the crime financed the coin collection. Now it seems the coin collection may have facilitated the crime. Go figure.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 10, 2014, 11:18:53 PM
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Building a story is more like it, rather than building a case.

We have a 12 year old girl briefly seeing something that she can recall 40+ years later? who will win the super memory game, Marla, Jo, or 12 year old girl remembers bomb?

Possible coin collection prior to the crime, poor old Kenny?

Clocks are only used on bombs when setting off the charge at a certain time. Cooper couldn't use that option.

Now, we have the Geestmans snooping around Dropzone? they need to be sniffing around the FBI telling them, and not reading about what others are claiming? makes no sense.

This is starting to sound like advertisement for the DB Cooper thread. nobody is there anymore.

No clock was seen. Cooper said: "all I have to do is touch these wires together (he pointed to the wires) and .........."

The expletive and word he used after "and" proves he was .........   Elmer Fudd from Beacon Utah.

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 10, 2014, 11:29:39 PM
Quote
No clock was seen.

No reason to have one. it would server no purpose what so ever.....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 11, 2014, 03:03:32 AM
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No clock was seen. Cooper said: "all I have to do is touch these wires together (he pointed to the wires) and .........."

The expletive and word he used after "and" proves he was .........   Elmer Fudd from Beacon Utah.

Could someone point me to where Cooper had said this? Flo said "all I have to do is attach this wire to this gadget here and we all be dead."
Didn't Tina also state singular wire?

Anyone who says Cooper had a timer on his bomb is a nut. "I'll blow this plane and everybody up, in .... let's seeee ... 6 hours and 27 minutes!" As if.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 11, 2014, 03:28:32 AM
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No clock was seen. Cooper said: "all I have to do is touch these wires together (he pointed to the wires) and .........."

The expletive and word he used after "and" proves he was .........   Elmer Fudd from Beacon Utah.

Could someone point me to where Cooper had said this? Flo said "all I have to do is attach this wire to this gadget here and we all be dead."
Didn't Tina also state singular wire?

Anyone who says Cooper had a timer on his bomb is a nut. "I'll blow this plane and everybody up, in .... let's seeee ... 6 hours and 27 minutes!" As if.

The source of my two wires is so far back in time I couldn't prove it if I wanted to - maybe it was a single wire .... to this gadget? ....

"A quick check with Wikipedia reveals that the most common standard size for dynamite is a stick 1¼" in diameter and 8" long."

Road flares vary in size but a common diameter is Diameter 1 In., Length 14 In ???

A dime is 17.91 mm (0.705 in) dia. A nickel is 21.21 millimeters (0.835 in). A quarter is 0.955 inches (24.26 mm).

The lead plug nickles Blevins produces are exactly 1.25 inches dia. Kenny was obviously using Blevins plug nickels!

This isnt posting correctly ... will give up on today.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 11, 2014, 07:06:47 AM
Multiple quotes together seems to be the reason it continues to stay in the quote box....

I don't think the question is what diameter dynamite is vs road flares. If it was presented in a way to appear as a bomb, that's how people will see it. I'll assume the two rows probably had black tape holding them together, and depending on how he placed it in the case could of limited the writing on the flares by rotating them skewing the writing. a simple illusion.

People use fake guns to commit crimes all the time. cops often shoot people who have fake guns. the average person is not going to analyze what they seen in brief periods. Flo read the note that said he had a bomb. he opened the case, and she seen something that appeared to be a bomb. probably the first time she ever seen anything like that. so it should be pretty east to fool her IMO.

Here is a "prop bomb" made from 6 road flares. do you think they would notice any writing on it?

He explains how it was made.

I ended up using a bunch of wires and old computer parts taped and glued onto the sticks of dynamite to best replicate a stereotypical movie time bomb. To top it off I found a great mini alarm clock at Wal-mart that ended up working perfectly as the final piece. I remember laughing as I was constructing this fake bomb on my coffee table that the ATF or FBI were going to break down my door any second. When I was finished with this time bomb it looked kind of real, real enough I guess for a cartoon looking bomb.

The bomb shouldn't have taken much space. how was it presented, or what else was in the case that nobody has disclosed?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on December 11, 2014, 01:11:20 PM
Moriarty,

The only place that I can recall seeing the "we all be dead" quote was in a video interview that Flo did. I'm pretty sure that it was the episode of "In Search Of".
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 11, 2014, 01:18:44 PM
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No clock was seen. Cooper said: "all I have to do is touch these wires together (he pointed to the wires) and .........."

The expletive and word he used after "and" proves he was .........   Elmer Fudd from Beacon Utah.

Could someone point me to where Cooper had said this? Flo said "all I have to do is attach this wire to this gadget here and we all be dead."
Didn't Tina also state singular wire?

Anyone who says Cooper had a timer on his bomb is a nut. "I'll blow this plane and everybody up, in .... let's seeee ... 6 hours and 27 minutes!" As if.

The source of my two wires is so far back in time I couldn't prove it if I wanted to - maybe it was a single wire .... to this gadget? ....

Tosaw's book is one source for the two wire statement by Tina.  Supposedly, there were two wires with bare ends and Cooper would threaten to touch them and blow everything up when he needed to emphasize some of his statements.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 11, 2014, 04:17:39 PM
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Multiple quotes together seems to be the reason it continues to stay in the quote box....

I don't think the question is what diameter dynamite is vs road flares. If it was presented in a way to appear as a bomb, that's how people will see it. I'll assume the two rows probably had black tape holding them together, and depending on how he placed it in the case could of limited the writing on the flares by rotating them skewing the writing. a simple illusion.

People use fake guns to commit crimes all the time. cops often shoot people who have fake guns. the average person is not going to analyze what they seen in brief periods. Flo read the note that said he had a bomb. he opened the case, and she seen something that appeared to be a bomb. probably the first time she ever seen anything like that. so it should be pretty east to fool her IMO.

Here is a "prop bomb" made from 6 road flares. do you think they would notice any writing on it?

He explains how it was made.

I ended up using a bunch of wires and old computer parts taped and glued onto the sticks of dynamite to best replicate a stereotypical movie time bomb. To top it off I found a great mini alarm clock at Wal-mart that ended up working perfectly as the final piece. I remember laughing as I was constructing this fake bomb on my coffee table that the ATF or FBI were going to break down my door any second. When I was finished with this time bomb it looked kind of real, real enough I guess for a cartoon looking bomb.

The bomb shouldn't have taken much space. how was it presented, or what else was in the case that nobody has disclosed?

well ... if Blev is going to contend the sticks were actually rolls of dimes some 12=-year old say Kenny rolling in paper tubes in some shed (an act of pur genius Blevons sayz!) ........ well then diameter certainly DOES COUNT! It must have been quarters not dimes!  ;) It could also have been Arm & Hammer Baking Soda!    ;)

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 11, 2014, 04:27:55 PM
My reference was to road flares vs dynamite. I don't know if he was talking about coins, he said "something to do with coin collecting" I don't know what it could be, and I doubt a 12 year old would remember a 10 second or so period 40+ years ago. they never said much about the bomb on Decoded that I remember. how it triggered the memory is another mystery. sounds like adding more to the story as others have done. "Tune In Next Week"
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on December 11, 2014, 04:50:39 PM
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My reference was to road flares vs dynamite. I don't know if he was talking about coins, he said "something to do with coin collecting" I don't know what it could be, and I doubt a 12 year old would remember a 10 second or so period 40+ years ago. they never said much about the bomb on Decoded that I remember. how it triggered the memory is another mystery. sounds like adding more to the story as others have done. "Tune In Next Week"
Not to be weird (too late  ;)), but when I think of Kenny going on a secret getaway with another man, visions of "Broke Back Mountain" come to mind.  Maybe that's why they wanted to keep a lid on it?  I don't know.  When I hear of a guy preparing for this trip with a suitcase full of toys shaped like cylinders, I really don't know what to think.  These comments are satire of course, but there does seem to be a lot of finding an arrow and painting a bulls-eye around it going on,
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 11, 2014, 04:53:46 PM
 ;D ;D ;D Believe me, it's been brought up  ;D ;D ;D those were new ones though  ;D ;D

Might of been more explosive than we care to think about  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 12, 2014, 07:56:01 AM
The Kenny Christiansen saga is getting closer to Marla Cooper's story each day. Marla claimed at age 8 she walked in on her uncles working on something she believed was for the crime. Now we have another child walking in on Kenny days before "creating the bomb".

As mentioned before, how do these people remember such events that last seconds from over 4 decades ago? In both cases they had moments to view things, and were quickly run off. they have nothing to cause this to recall. I'm sure we have all been ask to leave the room dozens of times while growing up, or walked in at the wrong times.

I was about 10, or 11 years old and witnesses my friends mother shoot and kill her husband. I don't even remember the name of my friend, or much about the event. I can recall the shooting to some extent, but not much detail. I remember the old brother kept the bullet that killed his father in a clear plastic bottle.

I witnessed another shooting while working in a bar in the early 90's. I don't remember the name of the guy who was shot and killed right in front of me. two of us attended to him and his wound. I haven't a clue who the other guy was, or what he was wearing.

Both of these shooting lasted seconds and yet I can't give vivid recall to these events. I have a very good memory, I'm rather use to these incidents so I don't believe I've been 'traumatized" by them. I testified in the latest shooting, but can't recall much about it. this was only about 20 some years ago. how is it these children remember events that have no purpose to recall what so ever? 

Jo Weber claims to have witnessed her husband throwing Cooper cash into the Columbia river in late 1979? a simple incident of throwing out garbage, and yet she has a vivid recall? one of my duties growing up was throwing out garbage. I can't seem to recall any events to them. she gives vivid details of the entire event.

I just can't buy into all of this...... 8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on December 12, 2014, 12:19:49 PM
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The Kenny Christiansen saga is getting closer to Marla Cooper's story each day. Marla claimed at age 8 she walked in on her uncles working on something she believed was for the crime. Now we have another child walking in on Kenny days before "creating the bomb".

As mentioned before, how do these people remember such events that last seconds from over 4 decades ago? In both cases they had moments to view things, and were quickly run off. they have nothing to cause this to recall. I'm sure we have all been ask to leave the room dozens of times while growing up, or walked in at the wrong times.

I was about 10, or 11 years old and witnesses my friends mother shoot and kill her husband. I don't even remember the name of my friend, or much about the event. I can recall the shooting to some extent, but not much detail. I remember the old brother kept the bullet that killed his father in a clear plastic bottle.

I witnessed another shooting while working in a bar in the early 90's. I don't remember the name of the guy who was shot and killed right in front of me. two of us attended to him and his wound. I haven't a clue who the other guy was, or what he was wearing.

Both of these shooting lasted seconds and yet I can't give vivid recall to these events. I have a very good memory, I'm rather use to these incidents so I don't believe I've been 'traumatized" by them. I testified in the latest shooting, but can't recall much about it. this was only about 20 some years ago. how is it these children remember events that have no purpose to recall what so ever? 

Jo Weber claims to have witnessed her husband throwing Cooper cash into the Columbia river in late 1979? a simple incident of throwing out garbage, and yet she has a vivid recall? one of my duties growing up was throwing out garbage. I can't seem to recall any events to them. she gives vivid details of the entire event.

I just can't buy into all of this...... 8)

That's interesting, Shutter.  And, the young girl's memory is about something that most people would have forgotten. Mostly likely to be a re-constructed memory.

I remember when John Lennon was shot, I was watching Monday Night Football and Howard Cosell came on and announced it.  And, I think I  can remember it almost word for word.  They replayed it during the 30th anniversary and I was pretty close to dead on.  But, a few things were not the way I remembered them -- and I was pretty confident in my memory.  And, that was a big event.  A minor event I would have far less confidence in.  I think the girl's memory could be far off -- might have not been even in the correct time window.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 12, 2014, 03:04:38 PM
Quote
That's interesting, Shutter.  And, the young girl's memory is about something that most people would have forgotten.

It's an event that has no meaning, or reason to recall it. as kids we were always somewhere where we shouldn't have been, but I can't recall them from that long ago. we can easily recall things like JFK, 911, and Lennon, but recalling something 40 years back with zero reason to remember is astounding to say the least.

If something happened days, or weeks ago. I can see someone remembering something in detail. he believes in these people so strongly, and yet states if the DNA is negative he will accept that? this could only mean everything we have been trying to tell him.

I have reason to remember the incidents I spoke of earlier, but can't give you any details about them. I can recall bits and pieces, but that's about it. I haven't a clue what they were wearing, or where they were in the parking lot when the shot was fired. I remember the off duty cop who shot him. I can still see him holding the gun up waiting for the cops to show. I remember plugging the wound with my finger, and having his legs raised. I remember the first cop on the scene was a woman who was in shock shortly after showing up drawing her weapon. the police took me to the station, but I don't remember what they asked me. I know it was things about where I was, and what happened, but I can't recall any words.

this is much different, it's an event with no reason to recall, and yet they give details like having a photographic memory. it's like asking someone to remember what Jimmy had on his desk in 5th grade just before the bell rang for lunch? Dawn picked up on the tie clip. you seen how small it was when I showed it to you. I can't remember what kind of jewelry my mother had 40 years ago? her whole story isn't trustworthy at all given what we found out. it's not something that is considered flashy enough to remember decades later IMO.

I just can't buy into it.

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 12, 2014, 04:28:50 PM
I remember Willis Reed walking onto the floor of Madison Square Garden for the 7th game of the NBA finals against the LA Lakers. It was utterly electrifying, as he had injured his leg in an earlier game and not expected to play.

I can remember it like it happened yesterday, but I saw the documentary on the Knicks championship teams yesterday and was surprised to learn that this occurred in the 1970 finals. I could have sworn that I saw the game while sitting in my dorm room at Hofstra, watching with my friend Mike.

But I didn't start Hofstra for two years, in 1971! I must have inverted my memory of the 1973 Knicks championship against the Lakers, even though I was gone from the dorms by September 1972!

Whew.

This MUST mean that Jo Weber has extraordinary abilities. Perhaps when your husband confesses to stealing an airplane and threatening to kill forty people, those little ole memory neurons shape-up pretty quick, and stay that way for year! We may be witnessing medical history play out right in front of us, and you mock, Jo?

Perhaps that is why she talks about herself in the third-person, like we do.

Or she is presenting a fascinating 17-year long history of a false memory phenomenon. That too, is extraordinary. She even had to sneak around her then-husband, Jim, to research Duane.  Whew. Powerful forces are at work here.

Look at Cossey. I believe that he firmly believed that he owned the parachutes that DB Cooper used, and hung up on me when i started questioning him on the conflict with Norm Hayden. A mental overload,if you will. Universes in conflict.

And how about the 900 people who confessed? Is this madness, or something else?

The bigger question in the KC bomb development is why does this 50-yer old woman want to tell a story about her uncle in a barn with a bomb?  With MArla, we know she is addicted to the limelight, but this story from a 12-year old kid forty years later may be something else.

Sadly, it seems that Bobby will be unable to help us on this angle, so we will have to do it ourselves.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 12, 2014, 04:36:20 PM
I thought for years that I moved from Ohio to Florida in 1976, but failed to remember that I was sitting in our family room watching the news about Elvis. we also went through the worst blizzard in Ohio in 77. we moved down here, and it snowed in Miami soon after we arrived  ;D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 12, 2014, 04:46:52 PM
That seems to be the human condition as I know it - we re-order our memories to suit us!

Clearly, you like snow.  But you stayed in Florida?  You may have a serious mental issue, Shutter. I'd check it out, as soon as you resolve the mental issues in your local police department and the witnesses who saw you and your truck jump the space-time continuum and crash into that poor SOB who is suing you.

It's not just Jo.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 12, 2014, 04:58:23 PM
Funny, the guy wants $30,000 for the 10 mph accident I had nothing to do with. my lawyer just found out the cops only showed him my photo! they are supposed to use 5 other photo's, and they have to pick you out of the lineup. two different trucks, and old paper tag etc. it's all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to save you from things like this. it's ridiculous beyond belief.

Snow? I miss it to some extent. I never had to drive in it though. I was a little shutter lost in the drift  :)  :)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 12, 2014, 05:12:35 PM
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Funny, the guy wants $30,000 for the 10 mph accident I had nothing to do with. my lawyer just found out the cops only showed him my photo! they are supposed to use 5 other photo's, and they have to pick you out of the lineup. two different trucks, and old paper tag etc. it's all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to save you from things like this. it's ridiculous beyond belief.

Snow? I miss it to some extent. I never had to drive in it though. I was a little shutter lost in the drift  :)  :)

As I remember it, the winter of 1976/1977 was a record setting cold one in Southwest Ohio where I lived at that time.  Then the winter of 1977/1978 was a record setting one for snowfall amounts.  If Amazon is looking in, perhaps she can back up my memory on those matters. 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 12, 2014, 05:24:16 PM
 :)

Y'know, these emoticons are fun! Unlike your legal proceedings.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on December 12, 2014, 05:29:22 PM
I go back to another analogy....The DB Cooper case is like solving a jigsaw puzzle.  Most of us don't know what the assembled puzzle looks like, so we keep fitting little pieces together trying to figure out what it will look like at the end.

Others, like Jo and Robert, think they have the puzzle box with the picture on the front.  They are sure they know what the completed puzzle will look like.  Therefore, any pieces that they find have to fit the final picture as they believe it to be.

You can't reason with them, give them facts or point out details that don't match their preconceived notion.  The know in their heart or hearts that their suspect is DB Cooper so all of the pieces just have to fit.  How is it possible they do no?  So someone comes up with a 50 year old memory of a minor thing, if it fits it must be true.  If it doesn't it must be false.

ParrotheadVol just did a long and reasoned post trying to convince Robert the flaws in his reason.  But, it's just a waste of his time.  You can never convince a true believer.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 12, 2014, 05:54:43 PM
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The Kenny Christiansen saga is getting closer to Marla Cooper's story each day. Marla claimed at age 8 she walked in on her uncles working on something she believed was for the crime. Now we have another child walking in on Kenny days before "creating the bomb".

As mentioned before, how do these people remember such events that last seconds from over 4 decades ago? In both cases they had moments to view things, and were quickly run off. they have nothing to cause this to recall. I'm sure we have all been ask to leave the room dozens of times while growing up, or walked in at the wrong times.

I was about 10, or 11 years old and witnesses my friends mother shoot and kill her husband. I don't even remember the name of my friend, or much about the event. I can recall the shooting to some extent, but not much detail. I remember the old brother kept the bullet that killed his father in a clear plastic bottle.

I witnessed another shooting while working in a bar in the early 90's. I don't remember the name of the guy who was shot and killed right in front of me. two of us attended to him and his wound. I haven't a clue who the other guy was, or what he was wearing.

Both of these shooting lasted seconds and yet I can't give vivid recall to these events. I have a very good memory, I'm rather use to these incidents so I don't believe I've been 'traumatized" by them. I testified in the latest shooting, but can't recall much about it. this was only about 20 some years ago. how is it these children remember events that have no purpose to recall what so ever? 

Jo Weber claims to have witnessed her husband throwing Cooper cash into the Columbia river in late 1979? a simple incident of throwing out garbage, and yet she has a vivid recall? one of my duties growing up was throwing out garbage. I can't seem to recall any events to them. she gives vivid details of the entire event.

I just can't buy into all of this...... 8)

But Blevins has spent years proving that Marla is a liar and a fabricator, and a "hate monger" too. It follows that people who do society a favor like Blevins has done are nice guys, truth tellers, only interested in the truth, geniuses at investigation, and never make anything up even though they have claimed for years on all oceans to be 'famous science fiction' writers of note.

If it walks like a Saint, talks like a Saint, stinks like a Saint, ... it must be a Saint!

The formula is pure genius. Only a genius could have thought that up, while scrubbing floors.

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on December 12, 2014, 05:57:25 PM
While it's probably true that Blevins will probably never understand the flaws in his theory, I believe it is still important to challenge him. People will believe anything. It would not be hard to convince someone that was not real familiar with the Cooper case that Kenny Christiansen was Cooper. I found DZ after reading Skyjack. I'm sure some people find it after reading Blevins book. Those people, that have only seen the story from Blevins side, need to see the fallacies of his case regarding KC. A fine example of this is the house for cash scenario. Blevins would have never corrected that on his own. He didn't even take the YouTube video with false information down until I brought it up recently. He would love to be able to post up things regarding KC that went unchallenged. So, when I see him trying to create facts, such as Tina would not have been able to give an accurate description, I have to say something. You are correct though. He will never be convinced of anything other than Kennys guilt. Even the DNA not matching would not be enough. He'd quickly come up with a reason why Kenny was still the guy.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 12, 2014, 06:17:20 PM
Much of the time I am writing for the folks reading these posts - not the posters, but the hundreds of innocents who come along. I don't want their subconscious memories to only contain the spittle of the inflamed.

By the way Georger, I do some of my best work on my knees, or my ass, which ever way I fit around the toilet bowl best so that I can get to the shut-off valve. I think much better when water isn't spritzin' in my face or hitting the ceiling. I hate it when it hits the ceiling and then starts dripping down.....ug. Everything gets wet - what a mess.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 12, 2014, 06:20:44 PM
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While it's probably true that Blevins will probably never understand the flaws in his theory, I believe it is still important to challenge him. People will believe anything. It would not be hard to convince someone that was not real familiar with the Cooper case that Kenny Christiansen was Cooper. I found DZ after reading Skyjack. I'm sure some people find it after reading Blevins book. Those people, that have only seen the story from Blevins side, need to see the fallacies of his case regarding KC. A fine example of this is the house for cash scenario. Blevins would have never corrected that on his own. He didn't even take the YouTube video with false information down until I brought it up recently. He would love to be able to post up things regarding KC that went unchallenged. So, when I see him trying to create facts, such as Tina would not have been able to give an accurate description, I have to say something. You are correct though. He will never be convinced of anything other than Kennys guilt. Even the DNA not matching would not be enough. He'd quickly come up with a reason why Kenny was still the guy.

Blevins clearly does understand the flaws. He spends 99.9% of his time attacking the veracity of the people who question his statements and talking about vague issues like honesty, truth, hate, people's fears, etc. vs. any time on his actual statements and what he claims is evidence. Then he leaps further by attacking education, educated people, forum members personally, he tells the world people are Untrustworthy over and over again ... and he turns around and says "I never said that" !

To hear Blevins say it, he says everything and nothing all at the same time.

The whole thing is superfluous. But it's not going to stop.
 

 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 12, 2014, 06:39:10 PM
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I go back to another analogy....The DB Cooper case is like solving a jigsaw puzzle.  Most of us don't know what the assembled puzzle looks like, so we keep fitting little pieces together trying to figure out what it will look like at the end.

Others, like Jo and Robert, think they have the puzzle box with the picture on the front.  They are sure they know what the completed puzzle will look like.  Therefore, any pieces that they find have to fit the final picture as they believe it to be.

You can't reason with them, give them facts or point out details that don't match their preconceived notion.  The know in their heart or hearts that their suspect is DB Cooper so all of the pieces just have to fit.  How is it possible they do no?  So someone comes up with a 50 year old memory of a minor thing, if it fits it must be true.  If it doesn't it must be false.

ParrotheadVol just did a long and reasoned post trying to convince Robert the flaws in his reason.  But, it's just a waste of his time.  You can never convince a true believer.

Puzzle is an apt analogy.

On the basic issues in the Cooper case I can't honestly say we have changed anything, in all this time. We have examined all kinds of specific issues from countless angles, but have changed nothing in the official record. The only person(s) who have added anything actually NEW, is Tom Kaye and it could be decades (or never) before any of that connects and changes the official record of the case, or never.

Have you noticed that neither Blevins or Weber has 'argued' with Tom's photos of particles or the money! ??? Blevins response was to claim he had the Palmer Report too!  :)  That was telling... makes Blevins part of the Science Team by association he fosters.  :-X 

If it was easy I guess it would have already been done.  :(   



Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 12, 2014, 08:56:43 PM
Here is the story of the shooting I witnessed. I was already incorrect about the date. I said the early 90's, but it was actually 1990.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1990-10-17/news/9002190901_1_police-officer-parking-lot-professional-police
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on December 13, 2014, 01:20:44 AM
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Have you noticed that neither Blevins or Weber has 'argued' with Tom's photos of particles or the money! ??? Blevins response was to claim he had the Palmer Report too!  :)  That was telling... makes Blevins part of the Science Team by association he fosters.  :-X 

And, then when confronted with the fact that the Palmer report was never released publicly and he couldn't possible have one, he responded that he shredded it, or told Gayla to shred it.

When there is no response from the FBI on his report and the DNA sample, where does he go?  Carr has already said (and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have his exact quote) they DNA sample they have is partial and generates a lot of false positives, so they won't test against it unless there is some other evidence pointing to that suspect.

What if he actually gets someone to make a movie.  If they do, these movies are always "based on true facts".  The names will be changed, characters will be created and events will be invented to make the story flow better.  It will prove nothing.  So, where does Robert go from there?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 13, 2014, 03:07:58 AM
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Have you noticed that neither Blevins or Weber has 'argued' with Tom's photos of particles or the money! ??? Blevins response was to claim he had the Palmer Report too!  :)  That was telling... makes Blevins part of the Science Team by association he fosters.  :-X 
 
And, then when confronted with the fact that the Palmer report was never released publicly and he couldn't possible have one, he responded that he shredded it, or told Gayla to shred it.

When there is no response from the FBI on his report and the DNA sample, where does he go?  Carr has already said (and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have his exact quote) they DNA sample they have is partial and generates a lot of false positives, so they won't test against it unless there is some other evidence pointing to that suspect.

What if he actually gets someone to make a movie.  If they do, these movies are always "based on true facts".  The names will be changed, characters will be created and events will be invented to make the story flow better.  It will prove nothing.  So, where does Robert go from there?

Robert has consumed five long years and he can claim 500+ accomplishments; just as he claims 500+ articles at Newsvine. If he gets a movie, he gets a movie. Or rather Lyle finally gets the movie he wanted at the start. Blevins is now openly linking his work on Kenny to Porteous and Gray with kudos. Like Einstein credited Mileva Maric and wrote her a check for a building ... to house their children! Will the odd parents of Christiansen have a reunion and will Gray get a check for his part? I think not.  8)

Likewise, the Palmer family will not get a check from Robert any time soon, either!

BTW, so far as I know, the Palmer report is an FBI document; not a Palmer document and never was a Palmer document. It's a report written by the FBI; not written by Palmer. Palmer may never have even seen the FBI's 'Palmer report'. The Palmer family never had it to send anyone, they say, in any event. Blevins' claim is probable just one more act of retribution ... against his enemies which are legion and everywhere in Cooperland, he says.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 13, 2014, 03:39:43 AM
Does this bother anyone else besides me?
"5:47pm SEADD. The flt is on the grnd and they arp making preparations to hook up the ueling truck The highjacker is in the lav nd and think wil stay there or a while" Then next transmission is 6:21pm with demands.
Seems weird to me that upon landing the flight crew feels Cooper would stay in the lavatory for some time. Why? ... Also seems weird that Cooper (even if he was crapping his pants) would close himself in a restrictive space like the washroom. If he had to do his business you think it would've been a new world's record for in and out. The entire crew could've ran off that plane. No pilots and a suspected fake bomb is a bad scenario. FBI could've boarded. Passengers could've bailed. Cooper seemed to know that being on the ground was the most dangerous part of the entire plan, why put yourself in such a restrictive, out of control location?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: hom on December 13, 2014, 05:07:13 PM
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Does this bother anyone else besides me?
"5:47pm SEADD. The flt is on the grnd and they arp making preparations to hook up the ueling truck The highjacker is in the lav nd and think wil stay there or a while" Then next transmission is 6:21pm with demands.
Seems weird to me that upon landing the flight crew feels Cooper would stay in the lavatory for some time. Why? ... Also seems weird that Cooper (even if he was crapping his pants) would close himself in a restrictive space like the washroom. If he had to do his business you think it would've been a new world's record for in and out. The entire crew could've ran off that plane. No pilots and a suspected fake bomb is a bad scenario. FBI could've boarded. Passengers could've bailed. Cooper seemed to know that being on the ground was the most dangerous part of the entire plan, why put yourself in such a restrictive, out of control location?

Doesn't bother me.  He probably told Tina that's where they would be.  Nothing said about him having the door shut.  No doubt would have still had "the bomb."  Tina had the comm unit right at the lavatory door.  He would still be able to exert the same control as he enjoyed in seat 18E.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 13, 2014, 09:45:52 PM
Noted. Anybody else? .... I guess I was wondering if Cooper had been doing anything else in the washroom but I suppose he had time to deal with some things after take-off, (Tina up front) and bailing out.

Would someone please point me the full transcript of "DVD: "Hijacked! D.B. Cooper and Northwest Flight #305," produced by the NWA History Centre, Inc. in 2012. Includes interview with Bill Rataczak"

Mine cuts off at this little exciting part:
"Seattle, and we’re curious now, what is going to happen when those stairs come down. Now the stairs in a 727... were dual purpose they were for boarding passengers but they were also, and Boeing put this out in a bulletin, when you, major airline, whoever buys our airplane 727, be sure when you park it at the gate that it has the stairs down fully over center and locked....because, and Northwest did that without even asking because we knew what the potential problem was..."
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 13, 2014, 09:55:39 PM
The site I found the DVD on was ebay....I was looking at Northwest material. check there  8)

UPDATE
Yep, Ebay has it....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NORTHWEST-AIRLINES-D-B-COOPER-HIJACKING-NWA-HISTORY-CENTRE-DVD-TOLD-BY-COPILOT-/301397863125?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item462cb66ad5
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 13, 2014, 10:03:12 PM
The DVD is expensive, but it's pretty good. Something about Rataczak's talk that might interest people is to hear how hard Rataczak pushed for a coastal airport, to get Cooper over water.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 13, 2014, 10:04:48 PM
I think he wanted Cooper off the plane more than anyone.....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 13, 2014, 10:08:30 PM
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The site I found the DVD on was ebay....I was looking at Northwest material. check there  8)

UPDATE
Yep, Ebay has it....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NORTHWEST-AIRLINES-D-B-COOPER-HIJACKING-NWA-HISTORY-CENTRE-DVD-TOLD-BY-COPILOT-/301397863125?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item462cb66ad5

"Hey! Hey Rataczak! Look down to your left! It's me, DB Cooper! I'm right here!" ... hahaha
Oh man, like $32.00! but I guess with that 14 day money back guarantee I could just copy it and get a refund. Better not. Damn it lousy morals, thanks for nothing.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 13, 2014, 10:10:40 PM
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The site I found the DVD on was ebay....I was looking at Northwest material. check there  8)

UPDATE
Yep, Ebay has it....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NORTHWEST-AIRLINES-D-B-COOPER-HIJACKING-NWA-HISTORY-CENTRE-DVD-TOLD-BY-COPILOT-/301397863125?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item462cb66ad5

"Hey! Hey Rataczak! Look down to your left! It's me, DB Cooper! I'm right here!" ... hahaha
Oh man, like $32.00! but I guess with that 14 day money back guarantee I could just copy it and get a refund. Better not. Damn it lousy morals, thanks for nothing.

That could get you the death penalty today..... ;D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 13, 2014, 10:25:18 PM
Hey, I gotta old canvas sack of $20.00 bills over here I can't get rid of. Maybe he'll take cash. :P
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 13, 2014, 10:31:25 PM
I have a huge collection of bank bags because of this case...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 13, 2014, 10:40:54 PM
Haha,

So I go to the nwa history site and click on this. Grab a scotch, settle back and Cooper up. - PS, is that baggage handler wearing a clip on tie? Enjoy.

I don't know how to embed. Luckily. (http://youtu.be/ncvTMFL5kxc)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 14, 2014, 12:28:51 AM
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Haha,

So I go to the nwa history site and click on this. Grab a scotch, settle back and Cooper up. - PS, is that baggage handler wearing a clip on tie? Enjoy.

I don't know how to embed. Luckily. (http://youtu.be/ncvTMFL5kxc)

Thanks. Chuckle...  :) :) :)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 14, 2014, 03:19:17 PM
Because the video centers around this fashionable stewardess leaving from Seattle, it parallels Tina so well and that's why I posted it. It was funny and in the spirit of the case. Since I posted that, it has made me think about how easy it is to romanticize this case and Cooper. Tina, early twenties, idealistic, goes to work and in the space of half a day, Cooper threatens her and the crew's lives and I think it's important to remember this. The flight crew, Flo's testimony all point to how authentically fearful they were to the situation. Consider, it's 40 years + and Tina is still hunted, emailed, telephoned, etc. In a way she is a very good example of being a victim of this crime.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 14, 2014, 03:36:40 PM
Do you think descriptions on height could be off due to the confines of a cabin?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 14, 2014, 03:45:13 PM
Also, some veterans help please.
I just watched the National Geo of the case and almost got dizzy from eye rolling at the first 8 minutes.

1 - Because of Mitchell's testimony I've been assuming Cooper was last to board (at least 2nd to last.) I based that on him saying the FBI called out his name and then Coopers and in the transcript it's suggest it may have been reverse order but now I think it makes sense the FBI would have gone by seat assignment, closest to Cooper. Can someone say factually that Cooper did indeed board last?
2 - Because of the above I've also assumed that the plane was boarded through the aft stairs. Cooper is last to get on, no one sees him, he gets experience of the stairs, he sits in the back in control. That's what Ive felt and for the time period, amount of pax, no indication on the boarding pass, I've assumed that he chose his seat. Was Cooper assigned 18c?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 14, 2014, 03:51:40 PM
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Do you think descriptions on height could be off due to the confines of a cabin?

No. Multiple witnesses state close to the same thing. Testimony taken at different times. Tina would know her own height and easily compare it. I'm not tall, five feet five inches, rarely aware of my height and how it compares in the world but I bet I could peg anyone's height just looking at them. If you're referring to Cooper I'd say the description is a given. Plus if you think about it flight attendants are constantly putting things up, they're using the storage (shelf or now bins) for balance, checking for things falling down etc. The cabin itself is a constant comparison of themselves within it.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 14, 2014, 03:58:37 PM
You can find Mitchell being interviewed by WSHS on the thread here. click on the Washington link at the bottom of the post, I think it's on the second page of there site...

http://www.thedbcooperforum.com/index.php?topic=31.0
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 14, 2014, 04:23:30 PM
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Also, some veterans help please.
I just watched the National Geo of the case and almost got dizzy from eye rolling at the first 8 minutes.

1 - Because of Mitchell's testimony I've been assuming Cooper was last to board (at least 2nd to last.) I based that on him saying the FBI called out his name and then Coopers and in the transcript it's suggest it may have been reverse order but now I think it makes sense the FBI would have gone by seat assignment, closest to Cooper. Can someone say factually that Cooper did indeed board last?
2 - Because of the above I've also assumed that the plane was boarded through the aft stairs. Cooper is last to get on, no one sees him, he gets experience of the stairs, he sits in the back in control. That's what Ive felt and for the time period, amount of pax, no indication on the boarding pass, I've assumed that he chose his seat. Was Cooper assigned 18c?

Tosaw's book, page 2, states that Cooper was the last passenger to board and that he selected the last row of seats on the right side of the cabin on his own.  The plane had about 100 seats and about 36 or so passengers so NWA didn't bother with assigned seats on the flight since it was only a 25 minute flight.

Himmelsbach's book says about the same thing.

Also, the arriving and departing passengers all used the aft stairs.  This was before the "jetway" boom and the aircraft parked on the ramp and everyone had to walk a short distance from the terminal to the aircraft through a light rain.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 14, 2014, 04:38:34 PM
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Also, some veterans help please.
I just watched the National Geo of the case and almost got dizzy from eye rolling at the first 8 minutes.

1 - Because of Mitchell's testimony I've been assuming Cooper was last to board (at least 2nd to last.) I based that on him saying the FBI called out his name and then Coopers and in the transcript it's suggest it may have been reverse order but now I think it makes sense the FBI would have gone by seat assignment, closest to Cooper. Can someone say factually that Cooper did indeed board last?
2 - Because of the above I've also assumed that the plane was boarded through the aft stairs. Cooper is last to get on, no one sees him, he gets experience of the stairs, he sits in the back in control. That's what Ive felt and for the time period, amount of pax, no indication on the boarding pass, I've assumed that he chose his seat. Was Cooper assigned 18c?

Tosaw's book, page 2, states that Cooper was the last passenger to board and that he selected the last row of seats on the right side of the cabin on his own.  The plane had about 100 seats and about 36 or so passengers so NWA didn't bother with assigned seats on the flight since it was only a 25 minute flight.

Himmelsbach's book says about the same thing.

Also, the arriving and departing passengers all used the aft stairs.  This was before the "jetway" boom and the aircraft parked on the ramp and everyone had to walk a short distance from the terminal to the aircraft through a light rain.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 14, 2014, 04:43:42 PM
Here is a view from the stairs on my simulator  8)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my4tox9Bn1I
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: hom on December 14, 2014, 08:37:51 PM
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Was Cooper assigned 18c?

Besides the fact he was not assigned a seat, he never sat in 18c, which was the aisle seat on the left side of the plane.  He sat initially across the aisle in 18D, then moved to the center seat on the right side (18E).  I think the program you mentioned is the one where Himmelsbach showed the Meltzer crew where Coop sat, and by doing so demonstrated just one of many examples of how clueless he is.  Apparently clueless that seating arrangements on different 727s of different airlines at different times over different routes varied.


BTW:  The last few rows were designated for smoking.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: hom on December 14, 2014, 08:57:05 PM
As far as I know nobody has located a seating chart applicable to Flight 305.  But...

Over an unknown period of time, NWA used devices at ticket counters that did show the seating arrangements for their flights.  This was a good sized, foldup page with stickers in the positions of the seats.  When they were assigning seats, they would peel off the sticker for the seat they were assigning and would put the sticker on the passenger's ticket.

One of these devices that matched flight 305 was sold a while back on e-bay, so I was able to get a copy of the marginally legible pic.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 14, 2014, 08:59:58 PM
Interesting, I've never seen those....

Here is another good one on Ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Northwest-Orient-Airlines-system-timetable-10-1-71-209-1-/371212768028?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item566e01531c
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 14, 2014, 11:36:36 PM
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As far as I know nobody has located a seating chart applicable to Flight 305.  But...

Over an unknown period of time, NWA used devices at ticket counters that did show the seating arrangements for their flights.  This was a good sized, foldup page with stickers in the positions of the seats.  When they were assigning seats, they would peel off the sticker for the seat they were assigning and would put the sticker on the passenger's ticket.

One of these devices that matched flight 305 was sold a while back on e-bay, so I was able to get a copy of the marginally legible pic.

Good find!!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 14, 2014, 11:37:59 PM
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Interesting, I've never seen those....

Here is another good one on Ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Northwest-Orient-Airlines-system-timetable-10-1-71-209-1-/371212768028?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item566e01531c

If you dont have it here is one Snow found ... I will have to post both pieces in 2 posts ...
Here is Effective Aug 1 1971 ...

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 14, 2014, 11:54:24 PM
Here is part -2 ........... Flt #305 named.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 15, 2014, 12:07:10 AM
Here is Effective Oct31, 1971 - PDX to Seattle.



Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 15, 2014, 12:55:20 AM
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Because the video centers around this fashionable stewardess leaving from Seattle, it parallels Tina so well and that's why I posted it. It was funny and in the spirit of the case. Since I posted that, it has made me think about how easy it is to romanticize this case and Cooper. Tina, early twenties, idealistic, goes to work and in the space of half a day, Cooper threatens her and the crew's lives and I think it's important to remember this. The flight crew, Flo's testimony all point to how authentically fearful they were to the situation. Consider, it's 40 years + and Tina is still hunted, emailed, telephoned, etc. In a way she is a very good example of being a victim of this crime.

Before we all get weepy over Tina's circumstances Morry, it appears you haven't read my work on Tina, especially the part where I volunteered to Tina and her family to work as their publicist GRATIS. I'd be happy to handle all the nuisance phone calls, emails, and knocks-on-the-door.

In exchange, I only ask for one interview, where they tell me everything.

The Mucklows turned me down. Apparently, they are more comfortable with the current situation.

By the way, do you know how many phone calls, emails, k-o-t-d Tina receives?  Any idea on the exact amount of hunting she has to endure? I'm curious.

Also, do you think Tina has any social responsibility to help us solve the case and help her find the guy who threatened to kill her?

Just askin'.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 15, 2014, 02:27:53 AM
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Because the video centers around this fashionable stewardess leaving from Seattle, it parallels Tina so well and that's why I posted it. It was funny and in the spirit of the case. Since I posted that, it has made me think about how easy it is to romanticize this case and Cooper. Tina, early twenties, idealistic, goes to work and in the space of half a day, Cooper threatens her and the crew's lives and I think it's important to remember this. The flight crew, Flo's testimony all point to how authentically fearful they were to the situation. Consider, it's 40 years + and Tina is still hunted, emailed, telephoned, etc. In a way she is a very good example of being a victim of this crime.

Before we all get weepy over Tina's circumstances Morry, it appears you haven't read my work on Tina, especially the part where I volunteered to Tina and her family to work as their publicist GRATIS. I'd be happy to handle all the nuisance phone calls, emails, and knocks-on-the-door.

In exchange, I only ask for one interview, where they tell me everything.

The Mucklows turned me down. Apparently, they are more comfortable with the current situation.

By the way, do you know how many phone calls, emails, k-o-t-d Tina receives?  Any idea on the exact amount of hunting she has to endure? I'm curious.

Also, do you think Tina has any social responsibility to help us solve the case and help her find the guy who threatened to kill her?

Just askin'.

Your last question is loaded, to the hilt. Who is this 'us' you keep talking about? What 'social responsibility'? Don't you think she fulfilled her social responsibility a long time ago? Find the guy? How are you going to 'find the guy' - what guy!?  You are making assumptions you are not entitled to make. And you will continue to make assumptions you aren't entitled to make - that's your nature.

Maybe if you were survivor of something you would understand?
 ;)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 15, 2014, 03:01:43 AM
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Because the video centers around this fashionable stewardess leaving from Seattle, it parallels Tina so well and that's why I posted it. It was funny and in the spirit of the case. Since I posted that, it has made me think about how easy it is to romanticize this case and Cooper. Tina, early twenties, idealistic, goes to work and in the space of half a day, Cooper threatens her and the crew's lives and I think it's important to remember this. The flight crew, Flo's testimony all point to how authentically fearful they were to the situation. Consider, it's 40 years + and Tina is still hunted, emailed, telephoned, etc. In a way she is a very good example of being a victim of this crime.

Before we all get weepy over Tina's circumstances Morry, it appears you haven't read my work on Tina, especially the part where I volunteered to Tina and her family to work as their publicist GRATIS. I'd be happy to handle all the nuisance phone calls, emails, and knocks-on-the-door.

In exchange, I only ask for one interview, where they tell me everything.

Oo-la-la monsieur, how is that GRATIS?
Quote
The Mucklows turned me down. Apparently, they are more comfortable with the current situation.

Or not comfortable with your situation.
Quote
By the way, do you know how many phone calls, emails, k-o-t-d Tina receives?  Any idea on the exact amount of hunting she has to endure? I'm curious.


No.
Quote
Also, do you think Tina has any social responsibility to help us solve the case and help her find the guy who threatened to kill her?

and definatly no. In fact, super no. Tina is a victim and therefor is not responsible, (socially?) for any of the skyjacking.

Just askin'.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 15, 2014, 03:05:43 AM
Tina may or may not have a social obligation to assist law enforcement in their investigation (under the constitution, her help is voluntary). She definitely has no obligation to any of the amateur sleuths of the Cooper case, i.e. us.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 15, 2014, 03:12:55 AM
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Tina may or may not have a social obligation to assist law enforcement in their investigation (though under the constitution, her help is voluntary). She definitely has no obligation to any of the amateur sleuths of the Cooper case, i.e. us.

Exactly. Tina has already helped law enforcement and perhaps, as much as we would like her to, has no more information to give. Tina has zero obligation to put "us" out of our misery and every right to leave her past behind her and live life as she sees fit as an individual.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 15, 2014, 04:50:20 PM
Sigh.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 15, 2014, 06:07:17 PM
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Sigh.

We all want to hear from her as much as you.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 16, 2014, 03:10:00 AM
More veteran help please.
When Tina describes Cooper as having a cord around his waste or (whomever?) states that he put the parachute on like he knew what he was doing, is there ever any mention to his overcoat?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 16, 2014, 04:35:20 AM
I've wondered that myself.  So far, I haven't heard anything about the overcoat.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 16, 2014, 12:32:41 PM
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More veteran help please.
When Tina describes Cooper as having a cord around his waste or (whomever?) states that he put the parachute on like he knew what he was doing, is there ever any mention to his overcoat?

Presumably, he kept the overcoat on and put the parachute on over it.  This would not have been a big deal.

While no mention is made of Cooper taking the overcoat off, he would have to have been really stupid to do so.  He was aware that there was rain in the Seattle/Portland area, that the temperatures were near freezing on the ground, and that he had no other protection from the weather.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 16, 2014, 04:25:54 PM
I keep wondering how the leg straps went over the ends of the coat...

Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: hom on December 16, 2014, 05:10:48 PM
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I keep wondering how the leg straps went over the ends of the coat...

The coat, as coats are like to be, was flexible and foldable.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 16, 2014, 05:17:00 PM
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I keep wondering how the leg straps went over the ends of the coat...

The coat, as coats are like to be, was flexible and foldable.


And where would he strap that?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 16, 2014, 05:50:37 PM
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I keep wondering how the leg straps went over the ends of the coat...

Just sayin'.

Basically, the leg straps would not be a problem.  The bottom of the rain coat probably had a "slit" in the rear of the coat, the entire bottom of the rain coat could be rolled up to the hip level to facilitate the fastening of the leg straps, and there are any number of other ways of doing it.  While the rain coat would get crumpled, the leg straps could easily be fastened.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 16, 2014, 05:53:14 PM
I wear a harness for boom lifts all the time. they are similar to a chute harness. I can easily wear a large shirt, or jacket, and get it to work properly....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 17, 2014, 12:57:53 AM
Cooper sends Tina to the front. Isolates the crew. Why? He knows they know he's going to jump. He knows they know he has the bag of money. Tina sees Cooper with the parachute cord around his waist. So what doesn't Cooper want the crew to see? There's only one way out. What's Cooper hiding? It's a vulnerable time for him. This one thing can end his plan and he's so close. There's four in the crew against him and his only threat is that bomb. Without the bomb Cooper is a passenger. Cooper sends Tina ahead and instructs no one to come back to see him dismantling the bomb. He needs to to put the money into the briefcase to use to escape and to fit in the sack (Bruce: Pauli exclusion principle.) He also needs the briefcase to be in the sack because of the wind blast. He also puts something else in the sack. An item from the plane. For later. He secures the bag to his waist/torso, puts on the overcoat over that to keep that money secure. It's what Mitchell can't put his finger on about Cooper. It's his appearance being odd. With other things, the overcoat is too big. Big enough to cover a "knapsack of money." Cooper puts the chute on and is ready to go. That's when he notices the tie he took off when it was swinging in front of him while he was cutting the chute cord, decides he can't go through that again because he needs to jump. He crosses his arms in front of the money, one hand on the pull cord so he's not fumbling like the FBI thinks he does. He jumps, lifts his knees up into a fetal position to secure that $200,000 baby. It's all about the money!!! and pulls the cord. Later, $5800, a portion of the briefcase money is found at Tina's Bar.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 17, 2014, 01:41:15 AM
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Cooper sends Tina to the front. Isolates the crew. Why? He knows they know he's going to jump. He knows they know he has the bag of money. Tina sees Cooper with the parachute cord around his waist. So what doesn't Cooper want the crew to see? There's only one way out. What's Cooper hiding? It's a vulnerable time for him. This one thing can end his plan and he's so close. There's four in the crew against him and his only threat is that bomb. Without the bomb Cooper is a passenger. Cooper sends Tina ahead and instructs no one to come back to see him dismantling the bomb. He needs to to put the money into the briefcase to use to escape and to fit in the sack (Bruce: Pauli exclusion principle.) He also needs the briefcase to be in the sack because of the wind blast. He also puts something else in the sack. An item from the plane. For later. He secures the bag to his waist/torso, puts on the overcoat over that to keep that money secure. It's what Mitchell can't put his finger on about Cooper. It's his appearance being odd. With other things, the overcoat is too big. Big enough to cover a "knapsack of money." Cooper puts the chute on and is ready to go. That's when he notices the tie he took off when it was swinging in front of him while he was cutting the chute cord, decides he can't go through that again because he needs to jump. He crosses his arms in front of the money, one hand on the pull cord so he's not fumbling like the FBI thinks he does. He jumps, lifts his knees up into a fetal position to secure that $200,000 baby. It's all about the money!!! and pulls the cord. Later, $5800, a portion of the briefcase money is found at Tina's Bar.

Are you writing a novelette too!  Lot's of BIG assumptions you are making - here's some factoids. BTW, what does the Pauli exclusion principle have to do with any of this? Are you saying that Cooper was a boson or a fermion!?  ;D

5:45 – 6:00   305: chutes on plane, chute and money inspection by Cooper.  Negotiations stairs down at take off, R advises not possible.  Cooper accedes to R’s demand for the time being.

6:21   305:   Girls are not off yet. Senior girl stationed on aft side of the cockpit in her seat remaining seated. 2nd girl in forward rear seat in C section told not to get up. 3rd girl (Mucklow) is intermediary and sitting with the individual.

6:21   305: Cooper restating his demand stair be down at take off.  They agree aft door will be open and remain open but stairs will be lowered only after takeoff. Cooper compliant for the moment..

6:38   305:  Have negotiated release of 2 girls leaving at any moment. 3rd girl Tina Mucklow) to stay with aircraft. He wants her to manipulate stairs for him after plane is  airborne. Have tried to tell him unable to operate stairs to lower position after takeoff. Trying to get him to let us lower stairs partly before takeoff.

6:44pm   305: Stews leaving aircraft … Flo & Alice leave aircraft, Hancock comes back for her purse and reports Cooper putting on chute with Tina watching.   

7:33   305 takes off.

7:40   305 advises leveling at 7000 ft . Cooper requesting again wants the stairs down (and plane slowed) and they are slowing to about 160. (Cooper not fully prepared to jump).

7:44   305 advises they will hold at 7000 ft – we have the back steps down now.  – (7:44 is the earliest time he can bail but  Cooper makes no attempt to bail. Pilots decide they must climb to lower fuel consumption and smooth out the flight configuration of the aircraft.)

7:51   305 advises they are climbing to 10,000 ft and are through 9,000 ft now.  Cooper prepping money in bag and cutting shroud lines etc , tells Tina to go forward and close the curtain.

7:54   FLT 305 reports: Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack tied around him and thinks he will jump.  (Cooper still waits, more to do including test of stairs consuming 10+ more minutes until he jumps..)

8:05-8:10 last comms. with Cooper.  Apparently makes at least two more calls to front according to crew members, one at  8:05pm and then two more after 8:05 asking the plane be leveled and slowed for more stable conditions … then he bails and not before (pressure spike, exact time uncertain).

He did not force the issue of the stairs to bail asap out of SEA! He accepted Rat’s issues  and waited and then he negotiated-demanded better conditions and waited further until those conditions were fulfilled. His goal seems to be getting out safely and any proximity to SEA  is secondary to bailing under safer conditions. If Cooper was some hot-shot skydiver who wanted to bail near Seattle why not force the issue of the stairs and bail out at the first opportunity rather than waiting ? 
 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 17, 2014, 01:56:57 AM
What the Hell, these facts are really screwing up theory man. >:(

"7:51   305 advises they are climbing to 10,000 ft and are through 9,000 ft now.  Cooper prepping money in bag and cutting shroud lines etc , tells Tina to go forward and close the curtain.

7:54   FLT 305 reports: Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack tied around him and thinks he will jump.  (Cooper still waits, more to do including test of stairs consuming 10+ more minutes until he jumps..)"

So in three minutes or three minutes including reporting of Cooper cut the cords, wrapped the bag in two directions, (or is that Larry Carrs guesses?) made a handle and tied it to his waist?
Where is this discrepancy (or is this different times) between Tina saying he had cord around his waist vs. a "knapsack" tied around him.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 17, 2014, 02:02:27 AM
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What the Hell, these facts are really screwing up theory man. >:(

It's covered in the Pauli Exclusion Principle you cited. No two electrons can't have the same quantum number where according to the Turing cycle N = True and N-1 = False. Think it over.  :-* Neither can be both true and false.  :-*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle
The Pauli exclusion principle governs the behavior of all fermions (particles with "half-integer spin"), while bosons (particles with "integer spin") are not subject to it. Was Cooper a fermion or a boson?   ;)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 17, 2014, 02:19:59 AM
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What the Hell, these facts are really screwing up theory man. >:(

It's covered in the Pauli Exclusion Principle you cited. No two electrons can't have the same quantum number where according to the Turing cycle N = True and N-1 = False. Think it over.  :-* Neither can be both true and false.  :-*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle
The Pauli exclusion principle governs the behavior of all fermions (particles with "half-integer spin"), while bosons (particles with "integer spin") are not subject to it. Was Cooper a fermion or a boson?   ;)
You just been waiting and waiting to use those kissing emotisantas, haven't you?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 17, 2014, 02:49:15 AM
I feel I should know what the Pauli Exclusion Principle is...I may have to look it up.

Yes!  I have my copy of "Q is for Quantum" handy.  Yeah
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 17, 2014, 04:01:35 AM
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What the Hell, these facts are really screwing up theory man. >:(

It's covered in the Pauli Exclusion Principle you cited. No two electrons can't have the same quantum number where according to the Turing cycle N = True and N-1 = False. Think it over.  :-* Neither can be both true and false.  :-*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle
The Pauli exclusion principle governs the behavior of all fermions (particles with "half-integer spin"), while bosons (particles with "integer spin") are not subject to it. Was Cooper a fermion or a boson?   ;)
You just been waiting and waiting to use those kissing emotisantas, haven't you?

You brought the Pauli Exclusion principle up, I didn't.

What does it have to do with the Cooper case? How does it apply - - - to what?

I mean when people bring things like this up I figure there has to be some reason. ?    ;)   Is there?

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 17, 2014, 04:51:25 PM
Well, all I can figure is that the PEP has something to do with a maximum number of elections filling their so-called orbitals. Hence, it may mean that we can only have so many eye-witnesses sitting in Row 18.

Bill says he was in 18B, Himms says Cooper was in 18C, Gregory was in the "same row as the skyjacker" according to FBI documents.  Flo was in the aisle seat (18 D?) and then Tina took her seat, and was lighting cigarettes for Danny in 18E.

But the WSHM only had seats in Row 18 on the starboard side, but what's a few details like this, eh?  After all, their Cooper re-enactor had a full beard.

It's guys like us, Georger, who provide needed ballast when the winds of the vortex blow strong.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 17, 2014, 05:15:00 PM
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Well, all I can figure is that the PEP has something to do with a maximum number of elections filling their so-called orbitals. Hence, it may mean that we can only have so many eye-witnesses sitting in Row 18.

Bill says he was in 18B, Himms says Cooper was in 18C, Gregory was in the "same row as the skyjacker" according to FBI documents.  Flo was in the aisle seat (18 D?) and then Tina took her seat, and was lighting cigarettes for Danny in 18E.

But the WSHM only had seats in Row 18 on the starboard side, but what's a few details like this, eh?  After all, their Cooper re-enactor had a full beard.

It's guys like us, Georger, who provide needed ballast when the winds of the vortex blow strong.

Does WSHM have the actual NWA seating layout as it existed during the hijacking?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 17, 2014, 05:23:23 PM
I think so.

I think I saw a seating chart posted somewhere in the exhibit. You could ask the WSHM, as they follow these discussions, at least for a time at the DZ, but they are difficult to connect with directly.  My numerous efforts to talk with the curators has been maddening. Emails and phone calls go unanswered.  However, the marketing people call back within the hour....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 17, 2014, 05:27:58 PM
WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?

We're all in black, now?  My eyeballs are screamin'.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 17, 2014, 08:34:05 PM
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I think so.

I think I saw a seating chart posted somewhere in the exhibit. You could ask the WSHM, as they follow these discussions, at least for a time at the DZ, but they are difficult to connect with directly.  My numerous efforts to talk with the curators has been maddening. Emails and phone calls go unanswered.  However, the marketing people call back within the hour....


Sounds like an email to WSHS is in order  :-\
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: hom on December 17, 2014, 08:50:51 PM
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Well, all I can figure is that the PEP has something to do with a maximum number of elections filling their so-called orbitals. Hence, it may mean that we can only have so many eye-witnesses sitting in Row 18.

It's wonderful how research into one area (e.g., Cooper case) can lead to solutions of problems that have plagued mankind for years, like elections.  It's a wonder mankind makes any progress (assuming it does). :)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: hom on December 17, 2014, 09:09:37 PM
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I think I saw a seating chart posted somewhere in the exhibit. You could ask the WSHM, as they follow these discussions, at least for a time at the DZ, but they are difficult to connect with directly.  My numerous efforts to talk with the curators has been maddening. Emails and phone calls go unanswered.  However, the marketing people call back within the hour....

Sounds like an email to WSHS is in order  :-\

Is someone there an ex NWA employee?  Is there anything that would make the kids there authorities on the NWA seating chart applicable to flight 305?  If someone were to give them a NWA seating chart and tell them with authority that it was THE seating chart, they would be happy to believe it and add it to the collection.  They have no basis on which to evaluate any "expert" claims.   I doubt that even the NWA history center could provide something proveable on the matter.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 18, 2014, 12:07:17 AM
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I think so.

I think I saw a seating chart posted somewhere in the exhibit. You could ask the WSHM, as they follow these discussions, at least for a time at the DZ, but they are difficult to connect with directly.  My numerous efforts to talk with the curators has been maddening. Emails and phone calls go unanswered.  However, the marketing people call back within the hour....

email them and ask - would be good to have...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 18, 2014, 01:57:23 AM
You email 'em, please. I'm not feeling lucky.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 18, 2014, 03:25:33 AM
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What the Hell, these facts are really screwing up theory man. >:(


You brought the Pauli Exclusion principle up, I didn't.

What does it have to do with the Cooper case? How does it apply - - - to what?


Okay, sorry for the delay as I don't want to peruse physics here unless it's a new thread. Try to understand, in general, I post between 1-3am when anything might fall out of my brain =P

I was about to argue that my allusion to the PEP was a classic solid mechanic reference to two objects (briefcase, money) can't occupy the same space but really upon reflection, that principle is related to a pure quantum concept of spin, not mass per se, so it's more specific and less general, like you couldn't make an analogous exclusion at classical scales. I'm not going to elaborate cause it will hijack (wah-wahhhh) the thread… my bad.

Who turned out the lights in here?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (seating chart)
Post by: hom on December 18, 2014, 02:09:42 PM
Here's a pic of another of those seat assignment sticker charts.  This one liberated from NWA at O'hare airport.  I've added a few clarifying notations.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (seating chart)
Post by: georger on December 19, 2014, 12:08:09 AM
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Here's a pic of another of those seat assignment sticker charts.  This one liberated from NWA at O'hare airport.  I've added a few clarifying notations.

good find ....

did you get the files from Dave you wanted ... if not I can send tonight.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 20, 2014, 07:29:33 PM
I am just forever stuck in this whirlpool of thought. Despite the bomb there's no aggression. Even with the bomb, if it is real, there's no explosion. Only the threat. Quite the contrary. Cooper has no desire to inflict harm to anyone except himself. He let's his hostages go. He doesn't even want them worried. He orders food for the staff. If it is true, he offers Tina some money. He does no harm to the aircraft. There's no signs of distress. He's polite, calm, mostly in control. That only leaves us one option. Punishment and justice.

He's been a good kid, he's learned the issue of fair play, when to apologize. It's evident in his ability on the aircraft with the crew to negotiate, to respect Tina, he accepts facts from the flight crew as believable. Cooper knows how to co-operate with others and it is obvious to me, essential to his revenge. But he's been hurt badly, maybe even worse, he's been shamed and considers himself, whether justified or not, at fault.

Cooper wants vengeance on the banks. They've wronged him. It's evident in the "negotiable currency." There is a good chance, look t the whole ancient ISIS bullshit, "a stain upon myself is a stain upon the whole population." Cooper's revenge could be a family matter(?) The rules of Cooper's justice is to punish who he feels guilty. Exonerate himself without any penalty, which is why he hasn't been caught, and deters anyone from harming him again. Stopping people by "drawing the curtain," "staying up front" to extract a personal revenge in an arena of public revenge, for all to see.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 20, 2014, 09:04:19 PM
Whew, and folks think I'm out there.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 20, 2014, 09:54:16 PM
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I am just forever stuck in this whirlpool of thought. Despite the bomb there's no aggression. Even with the bomb, if it is real, there's no explosion. Only the threat. Quite the contrary. Cooper has no desire to inflict harm to anyone except himself. He let's his hostages go. He doesn't even want them worried. He orders food for the staff. If it is true, he offers Tina some money. He does no harm to the aircraft. There's no signs of distress. He's polite, calm, mostly in control. That only leaves us one option. Punishment and justice.

He's been a good kid, he's learned the issue of fair play, when to apologize. It's evident in his ability on the aircraft with the crew to negotiate, to respect Tina, he accepts facts from the flight crew as believable. Cooper knows how to co-operate with others and it is obvious to me, essential to his revenge. But he's been hurt badly, maybe even worse, he's been shamed and considers himself, whether justified or not, at fault.

Cooper wants vengeance on the banks. They've wronged him. It's evident in the "negotiable currency." There is a good chance, look t the whole ancient ISIS bullshit, "a stain upon myself is a stain upon the whole population." Cooper's revenge could be a family matter(?) The rules of Cooper's justice is to punish who he feels guilty. Exonerate himself without any penalty, which is why he hasn't been caught, and deters anyone from harming him again. Stopping people by "drawing the curtain," "staying up front" to extract a personal revenge in an arena of public revenge, for all to see.

Hold your horses for a second here.  Cooper DID NOT "accept facts from the flight crew as believable", or at least not all of them.  He argued with Rataczak about partially lowering the stairs before take-off.  Rataczak told Cooper that the aircraft could not take off with the stairs hanging down, and eventually Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down.

Cooper didn't get any vengeance on the banks.  NWA's insurance company had to pay most of the $200,000 ransom money (after a court battle) and NWA had to make up the rest of the money.  And the whole hijacking was definitely an inconvenience for NWA and their personnel and customers.  Cooper told Tina that he did not have anything against NWA.

The most likely reason that Cooper hasn't been caught is that he died in the jump and his body simply has not been found.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 20, 2014, 09:54:48 PM
Haha ... dude, it's out there. Blow holes in it for me.

One day I went on my lunch hour to deposit a pay cheque in my bank. I had just moved.
Three hours later, I returned to work.
"Where have you been?"
"The bank, I was depositing a cheque. That's when the bank was robbed. The cops locked us all in."

Later. I did some research on bank robbery. i'm not sure exactly where but 2000 criminals in jail were approached to tell their stories. Something like 500 mentioned money as a strong promoter for their crime. The rest mentioned revenge.

I think it's Carr(?) who said "who you make that jump?"or something to that degree. Part of a bank robber's profile is revenge on themselves, punishment (including self inflicted violence such as death by cop etc) for their "fault."
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 20, 2014, 10:08:46 PM
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Hold your horses for a second here.  Cooper DID NOT "accept facts from the flight crew as believable", or at least not all of them.  He argued with Rataczak about partially lowering the stairs before take-off.  Rataczak told Cooper that the aircraft could not take off with the stairs hanging down, and eventually Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down.


Okay, 1) source? 2) I guess Cooper argued that but when that plane took off were the stairs up or down and if they were up, which skyjacker accepted that idea?
Quote
Cooper didn't get any vengeance on the banks. 

How do you know that?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 20, 2014, 10:11:24 PM
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Hold your horses for a second here.  Cooper DID NOT "accept facts from the flight crew as believable", or at least not all of them.  He argued with Rataczak about partially lowering the stairs before take-off.  Rataczak told Cooper that the aircraft could not take off with the stairs hanging down, and eventually Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down.


Okay, 1) source? 2) I guess Cooper argued that but when that plane took off were the stairs up or down and if they were up, which skyjacker accepted that idea?
Quote
Cooper didn't get any vengeance on the banks. 

How do you know that?

The argument about the aft stairs is in Tosaw's book.  The banks didn't suffer in any matter from the hijacking.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 20, 2014, 10:56:51 PM
"Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down."

Did Tosaw give a footnote to his origin on this? Did he quote it as the interview with Tina?

The bank gave Cooper the money. Later they got reimbursed. At the time of the crime, a bank gave Cooper the money, although at the time it could be argued that the money came through NWO, if (it's a big if) Cooper's grudge was with some bank, then justice was restored.

While I have your attention, why did 305, so right in their hijacking procedures, somewhat aware of Cooper bail time, fly through Portland? I notice on the FBI map there are a few "x".s next to flight path at this point? Did they veer away from a populated city or stick to V23?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 20, 2014, 11:47:46 PM
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"Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down."

Did Tosaw give a footnote to his origin on this? Did he quote it as the interview with Tina?

The bank gave Cooper the money. Later they got reimbursed. At the time of the crime, a bank gave Cooper the money, although at the time it could be argued that the money came through NWO, if (it's a big if) Cooper's grudge was with some bank, then justice was restored.

While I have your attention, why did 305, so right in their hijacking procedures, somewhat aware of Cooper bail time, fly through Portland? I notice on the FBI map there are a few "x".s next to flight path at this point? Did they veer away from a populated city or stick to V23?

See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.

The bank gave NWA the money in return for some paperwork meant they would get their money back.  So the bank was never in danger of suffering any financial loss from the hijacking.

In reality, despite the maps you may be looking at, there is not any real evidence that the hijacked airplane actually overflew Portland on V-23 or any other way.  In fact, the times and locations on those maps do not support an overflight of Portland.

But there is some evidence on those same maps that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side, in which case it would come very close to Tina Bar.  Himmelsbach's description of what he did in the Army helicopter that night, plus Tosaw's book, plus still other information in the FBI's "Notes" and elsewhere, indicate that all the aerial activity in the Portland area related to the hijacked airliner was on the west side of Portland.

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 21, 2014, 12:16:49 AM
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"Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down."

Did Tosaw give a footnote to his origin on this? Did he quote it as the interview with Tina?

The bank gave Cooper the money. Later they got reimbursed. At the time of the crime, a bank gave Cooper the money, although at the time it could be argued that the money came through NWO, if (it's a big if) Cooper's grudge was with some bank, then justice was restored.

While I have your attention, why did 305, so right in their hijacking procedures, somewhat aware of Cooper bail time, fly through Portland? I notice on the FBI map there are a few "x".s next to flight path at this point? Did they veer away from a populated city or stick to V23?

La invasión de Bahía de Cochinos en 1961. El secuestro fue en 1971.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 21, 2014, 12:26:07 AM
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"Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down."

Did Tosaw give a footnote to his origin on this? Did he quote it as the interview with Tina?

The bank gave Cooper the money. Later they got reimbursed. At the time of the crime, a bank gave Cooper the money, although at the time it could be argued that the money came through NWO, if (it's a big if) Cooper's grudge was with some bank, then justice was restored.

While I have your attention, why did 305, so right in their hijacking procedures, somewhat aware of Cooper bail time, fly through Portland? I notice on the FBI map there are a few "x".s next to flight path at this point? Did they veer away from a populated city or stick to V23?

See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.

The bank gave NWA the money in return for some paperwork meant they would get their money back.  So the bank was never in danger of suffering any financial loss from the hijacking.

In reality, despite the maps you may be looking at, there is not any real evidence that the hijacked airplane actually overflew Portland on V-23 or any other way.  In fact, the times and locations on those maps do not support an overflight of Portland.

But there is some evidence on those same maps that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side, in which case it would come very close to Tina Bar.  Himmelsbach's description of what he did in the Army helicopter that night, plus Tosaw's book, plus still other information in the FBI's "Notes" and elsewhere, indicate that all the aerial activity in the Portland area related to the hijacked airliner was on the west side of Portland.

The banks "loaned" NWA the cash.

The time and place of the T33 rendezvous with 305 near Lake Oswego, according to R2 who brought them together, indicates an approach from the northwest by the T33's with 305 having been west of Portland. R2 says he cannot confirm 305 flew straight over Portland because he was busy with the T33's at that time - R2 simply says he 'assumed' 305 had flown straight down the middle of V23 but he could not swear that is what happened. He says when he brought the T33 and 305 together, 305 was west off V23.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 21, 2014, 12:43:54 AM
Quote
The banks "loaned" NWA the cash.

Here is the receipt for the cash. signed by George Harrison. (see photo)


Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 21, 2014, 01:13:40 PM
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See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.


All the transcripts I have read would agree to this the stairs matter and that chain of communication. Tosaw interviewed Tina by phone.

Is there any dispute over Tosaw embeliishing the facts for the sake of the book?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 21, 2014, 01:23:14 PM
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See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.


All the transcripts I have read would agree to this the stairs matter and that chain of communication. Tosaw interviewed Tina by phone.

Is there any dispute over Tosaw embeliishing the facts for the sake of the book?

It is highly unlikely that Tosaw embellished anything.  In fact, he did some serious investigations in the Tina Bar area at his own expense.  Reportedly, he spent more than $10,000 of his on money (which went a lot further during his time) researching the Tina Bar possibilities.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 21, 2014, 02:08:17 PM
I couldn't care less what anyone thinks but a fundamental of the case is the belief in a just world. What are we, Cooper researchers, trying to resolve here?

When justice is not forthcoming from a higher authority, people will and do take justice into their own hands. Acts of vengeance are the result. Cooper's actions at the very primitive reflect that. The motives and the goals of Cooper are the same of us, the pursuit of justice. It's just that Coopers perception of justice differs from us, it has no limits, and that is important. Cooper carries a bomb. He faces jail time. He jumps into the dark into wind blast. Those risk taking are self-destructive. With such a cost for risk, vengeance must be shared. Cooper  is often seen as a Robin Hood figure and it's because the banks have robbed Cooper, Cooper robs the banks back, in fact he cycles that behaviour, when getting money offering the crew some money, giving money.

In the original notes, Cooper demands the money, then he will let the passengers go, then he wants the chutes. This isn't the way it goes down (thought overcomes feeling) but originally, Cooper doesn't mind the passengers to witness the money and before anyone argues that the passengers see it as just a bag, Cooper sees it as a bag of money.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 21, 2014, 02:15:16 PM
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See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.


All the transcripts I have read would agree to this the stairs matter and that chain of communication. Tosaw interviewed Tina by phone.

Is there any dispute over Tosaw embeliishing the facts for the sake of the book?

It is highly unlikely that Tosaw embellished anything.  In fact, he did some serious investigations in the Tina Bar area at his own expense.  Reportedly, he spent more than $10,000 of his on money (which went a lot further during his time) researching the Tina Bar possibilities.

That's nice.
Let me rephrase, unlikely or not, is there any dispute over Tosaw adding conjecture for the sake of the book, making it more readable, for instance?

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 21, 2014, 02:17:54 PM
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"Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down."

Did Tosaw give a footnote to his origin on this? Did he quote it as the interview with Tina?

The bank gave Cooper the money. Later they got reimbursed. At the time of the crime, a bank gave Cooper the money, although at the time it could be argued that the money came through NWO, if (it's a big if) Cooper's grudge was with some bank, then justice was restored.

While I have your attention, why did 305, so right in their hijacking procedures, somewhat aware of Cooper bail time, fly through Portland? I notice on the FBI map there are a few "x".s next to flight path at this point? Did they veer away from a populated city or stick to V23?

See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.

The bank gave NWA the money in return for some paperwork meant they would get their money back.  So the bank was never in danger of suffering any financial loss from the hijacking.

In reality, despite the maps you may be looking at, there is not any real evidence that the hijacked airplane actually overflew Portland on V-23 or any other way.  In fact, the times and locations on those maps do not support an overflight of Portland.

But there is some evidence on those same maps that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side, in which case it would come very close to Tina Bar.  Himmelsbach's description of what he did in the Army helicopter that night, plus Tosaw's book, plus still other information in the FBI's "Notes" and elsewhere, indicate that all the aerial activity in the Portland area related to the hijacked airliner was on the west side of Portland.

The banks "loaned" NWA the cash.

The time and place of the T33 rendezvous with 305 near Lake Oswego, according to R2 who brought them together, indicates an approach from the northwest by the T33's with 305 having been west of Portland. R2 says he cannot confirm 305 flew straight over Portland because he was busy with the T33's at that time - R2 simply says he 'assumed' 305 had flown straight down the middle of V23 but he could not swear that is what happened. He says when he brought the T33 and 305 together, 305 was west off V23.

Whoa. has it been stated, real or supposed, by how much?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 21, 2014, 03:08:43 PM
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See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.


All the transcripts I have read would agree to this the stairs matter and that chain of communication. Tosaw interviewed Tina by phone.

Is there any dispute over Tosaw embeliishing the facts for the sake of the book?

It is highly unlikely that Tosaw embellished anything.  In fact, he did some serious investigations in the Tina Bar area at his own expense.  Reportedly, he spent more than $10,000 of his on money (which went a lot further during his time) researching the Tina Bar possibilities.

That's nice.
Let me rephrase, unlikely or not, is there any dispute over Tosaw adding conjecture for the sake of the book, making it more readable, for instance?

To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever claimed previously that Tosaw embellished his book.  And as I stated above, that possibility is highly unlikely, or more probably, somewhere below zero.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 21, 2014, 03:15:28 PM
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"Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down."

Did Tosaw give a footnote to his origin on this? Did he quote it as the interview with Tina?

The bank gave Cooper the money. Later they got reimbursed. At the time of the crime, a bank gave Cooper the money, although at the time it could be argued that the money came through NWO, if (it's a big if) Cooper's grudge was with some bank, then justice was restored.

While I have your attention, why did 305, so right in their hijacking procedures, somewhat aware of Cooper bail time, fly through Portland? I notice on the FBI map there are a few "x".s next to flight path at this point? Did they veer away from a populated city or stick to V23?

See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.

The bank gave NWA the money in return for some paperwork meant they would get their money back.  So the bank was never in danger of suffering any financial loss from the hijacking.

In reality, despite the maps you may be looking at, there is not any real evidence that the hijacked airplane actually overflew Portland on V-23 or any other way.  In fact, the times and locations on those maps do not support an overflight of Portland.

But there is some evidence on those same maps that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side, in which case it would come very close to Tina Bar.  Himmelsbach's description of what he did in the Army helicopter that night, plus Tosaw's book, plus still other information in the FBI's "Notes" and elsewhere, indicate that all the aerial activity in the Portland area related to the hijacked airliner was on the west side of Portland.

The banks "loaned" NWA the cash.

The time and place of the T33 rendezvous with 305 near Lake Oswego, according to R2 who brought them together, indicates an approach from the northwest by the T33's with 305 having been west of Portland. R2 says he cannot confirm 305 flew straight over Portland because he was busy with the T33's at that time - R2 simply says he 'assumed' 305 had flown straight down the middle of V23 but he could not swear that is what happened. He says when he brought the T33 and 305 together, 305 was west off V23.

Whoa. has it been stated, real or supposed, by how much?

Professor Moriarty, with your last question above, it is obvious that you have not read the closed Cooper thread on DZ, the existing Cooper thread on DZ (you can basically ignore the last two or three years of that thread), the present Shutter thread, Himmelsbach's book, Tosaw's book, or even the newspaper stories about the hijacking.  After reading the above sources, you won't need to ask such questions.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 21, 2014, 03:41:44 PM
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"Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down."

Did Tosaw give a footnote to his origin on this? Did he quote it as the interview with Tina?

The bank gave Cooper the money. Later they got reimbursed. At the time of the crime, a bank gave Cooper the money, although at the time it could be argued that the money came through NWO, if (it's a big if) Cooper's grudge was with some bank, then justice was restored.

While I have your attention, why did 305, so right in their hijacking procedures, somewhat aware of Cooper bail time, fly through Portland? I notice on the FBI map there are a few "x".s next to flight path at this point? Did they veer away from a populated city or stick to V23?

See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.

The bank gave NWA the money in return for some paperwork meant they would get their money back.  So the bank was never in danger of suffering any financial loss from the hijacking.

In reality, despite the maps you may be looking at, there is not any real evidence that the hijacked airplane actually overflew Portland on V-23 or any other way.  In fact, the times and locations on those maps do not support an overflight of Portland.

But there is some evidence on those same maps that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side, in which case it would come very close to Tina Bar.  Himmelsbach's description of what he did in the Army helicopter that night, plus Tosaw's book, plus still other information in the FBI's "Notes" and elsewhere, indicate that all the aerial activity in the Portland area related to the hijacked airliner was on the west side of Portland.

The banks "loaned" NWA the cash.

The time and place of the T33 rendezvous with 305 near Lake Oswego, according to R2 who brought them together, indicates an approach from the northwest by the T33's with 305 having been west of Portland. R2 says he cannot confirm 305 flew straight over Portland because he was busy with the T33's at that time - R2 simply says he 'assumed' 305 had flown straight down the middle of V23 but he could not swear that is what happened. He says when he brought the T33 and 305 together, 305 was west off V23.

Whoa. has it been stated, real or supposed, by how much?

I assume you mean: 'how far west of V23'? That estimate has been left to R99 and Hominid, because lacking concrete data (of some kind), all anyone can do is speculate and imo it is people like R99 and Hom who have the best assets to  be making an intelligent assessment.

If you have new data, please present it!

People have been trying to unite the flight path with the money, since Feb 14th 1980. That gave rise to the Washougal Theory with JT providing 'insider' info that 305 had crossed at Troutdale - and that turned out to be suspect. Tom Kaye and Blevins accept the FBI map because "some smart guys" put that together. Maj Dawson surfaced in an interview and said 305 had flown a straight line between Toledo and the tip of Hayden Island. R2 says that he brought a T33 and 305 together just west of Lake Oswego, south of Portland. Tosaw, after talking to a number of officials, thought Cooper had cratered somewhere in the flood zone very close to the Columbia and Tina Bar - and he invested time and money dragging that area at several locations.

And until unredacted transcripts or radar data or something surfaces to better clarify the actual path 305 flew, this problem is probably going to sit unresolved forever, because without enough known data points in the drop zone, no better analysis can be done than already is being done.

The only exception I see to moving the flight path west to account for the money at Tina Bar, is some hitherto unknown fact like say dredging material from Hayden Island or somewhere in that area was put on the Fazio property which then yielded the Tina Bar, in some flood scenario?
     

   



     
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 21, 2014, 03:44:46 PM
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"Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down."

Did Tosaw give a footnote to his origin on this? Did he quote it as the interview with Tina?

The bank gave Cooper the money. Later they got reimbursed. At the time of the crime, a bank gave Cooper the money, although at the time it could be argued that the money came through NWO, if (it's a big if) Cooper's grudge was with some bank, then justice was restored.

While I have your attention, why did 305, so right in their hijacking procedures, somewhat aware of Cooper bail time, fly through Portland? I notice on the FBI map there are a few "x".s next to flight path at this point? Did they veer away from a populated city or stick to V23?

See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.

The bank gave NWA the money in return for some paperwork meant they would get their money back.  So the bank was never in danger of suffering any financial loss from the hijacking.

In reality, despite the maps you may be looking at, there is not any real evidence that the hijacked airplane actually overflew Portland on V-23 or any other way.  In fact, the times and locations on those maps do not support an overflight of Portland.

But there is some evidence on those same maps that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side, in which case it would come very close to Tina Bar.  Himmelsbach's description of what he did in the Army helicopter that night, plus Tosaw's book, plus still other information in the FBI's "Notes" and elsewhere, indicate that all the aerial activity in the Portland area related to the hijacked airliner was on the west side of Portland.

The banks "loaned" NWA the cash.

The time and place of the T33 rendezvous with 305 near Lake Oswego, according to R2 who brought them together, indicates an approach from the northwest by the T33's with 305 having been west of Portland. R2 says he cannot confirm 305 flew straight over Portland because he was busy with the T33's at that time - R2 simply says he 'assumed' 305 had flown straight down the middle of V23 but he could not swear that is what happened. He says when he brought the T33 and 305 together, 305 was west off V23.

Whoa. has it been stated, real or supposed, by how much?

Professor Moriarty, with your last question above, it is obvious that you have not read the closed Cooper thread on DZ, the existing Cooper thread on DZ (you can basically ignore the last two or three years of that thread), the present Shutter thread, Himmelsbach's book, Tosaw's book, or even the newspaper stories about the hijacking.  After reading the above sources, you won't need to ask such questions.

On the the hand, he may have read that material and knows something new, or has a better idea - if he will disclose it and stop shaking the tree to see what falls out ?   8)  He or she may be toying with this. It would not be the first time people did that!  :D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 21, 2014, 03:53:24 PM
According to Carr no radar data was ever taken from the Air Force, or at least he gave that impression. I'll look for his quote, but he says nothing was found, and he didn't think the Air Force would hand over the data.

Here is what Carr says about the radar data:

"As for the radar tapes, I cannot find where the tapes were ever given to the Bureau. All of the analysis was done by the Air Force and they most likely had their own procedures for storage of such tapes that did not include giving them to the FBI."
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 21, 2014, 05:26:09 PM
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According to Carr no radar data was ever taken from the Air Force, or at least he gave that impression. I'll look for his quote, but he says nothing was found, and he didn't think the Air Force would hand over the data.

Here is what Carr says about the radar data:

"As for the radar tapes, I cannot find where the tapes were ever given to the Bureau. All of the analysis was done by the Air Force and they most likely had their own procedures for storage of such tapes that did not include giving them to the FBI."

That is a very accurate synopsis of the matter. The FBI does not store AF records.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 21, 2014, 06:19:34 PM
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According to Carr no radar data was ever taken from the Air Force, or at least he gave that impression. I'll look for his quote, but he says nothing was found, and he didn't think the Air Force would hand over the data.

Here is what Carr says about the radar data:

"As for the radar tapes, I cannot find where the tapes were ever given to the Bureau. All of the analysis was done by the Air Force and they most likely had their own procedures for storage of such tapes that did not include giving them to the FBI."

That is a very accurate synopsis of the matter. The FBI does not store AF records.

If the Air Force did all of the analysis in reference to the flight path, where does NWO come into play with the path? the "other really smart guys"?  :-\
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 22, 2014, 12:50:01 AM
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According to Carr no radar data was ever taken from the Air Force, or at least he gave that impression. I'll look for his quote, but he says nothing was found, and he didn't think the Air Force would hand over the data.

Here is what Carr says about the radar data:

"As for the radar tapes, I cannot find where the tapes were ever given to the Bureau. All of the analysis was done by the Air Force and they most likely had their own procedures for storage of such tapes that did not include giving them to the FBI."

That is a very accurate synopsis of the matter. The FBI does not store AF records.

If the Air Force did all of the analysis in reference to the flight path, where does NWO come into play with the path? the "other really smart guys"?  :-\

Hom and R99 should answer this.

My estimate is several working groups at McChord AFB worked with a few engineers at NWA, working on different aspects of the overall problem, eg radar data and radar data interpretation, tests conducted with NWA personnel on Jan 6th, etc.  From the attached it is fairly clear the radar data was provided by the Air Force, tests were conducted on Jan 6th involving Air Force and NWA personnel with FBI personnel in attendance, wind data from the NWA Meteorology Chief  was incorporated, human body trajectory data from Boeing was used, time correlations using NWA communications tapes were consulted, and "any questions related to the above should be referred to the undersigned REDACTED Northwest Airlines".

And we know this relationship between the above parties continued well after January 6th into 1972 and probably beyond.

Hominid and R99 may have broken this down further, in answer to your question.
 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: hom on December 22, 2014, 01:43:50 AM
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If the Air Force did all of the analysis in reference to the flight path, where does NWO come into play with the path? the "other really smart guys"?

Hom and R99 should answer this.

Oh, all right, although you covered it well.  Here's a little different "take" on it.

The Air Force did not do "all of the analysis in reference to the flight path."  They were solely responsible for producing the big flightpath plot, and the data from which it was plotted, except I'm sure they were not the ones that put the thick neaderthal line on the plot.  Then at least a few NWA people were part of the little team that did the '72 searchzone map, itself partially "in reference to the flight path," using some of the data from the big plot.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 22, 2014, 02:15:35 AM
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If the Air Force did all of the analysis in reference to the flight path, where does NWO come into play with the path? the "other really smart guys"?

Hom and R99 should answer this.

Oh, all right, although you covered it well.  Here's a little different "take" on it.

The Air Force did not do "all of the analysis in reference to the flight path."  They were solely responsible for producing the big flightpath plot, and the data from which it was plotted, except I'm sure they were not the ones that put the thick neaderthal line on the plot.  Then at least a few NWA people were part of the little team that did the '72 searchzone map, itself partially "in reference to the flight path," using some of the data from the big plot.

Very nice, as usual.

I stayed far away from naming the specific groups and people in those groups that worked the problem at McChord ... for fear of being dead wrong and not wishing to release names. I may name the groups I have later, and you or someone can tell me how totally wrong I am. I will expect the worst!    :)   :)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 23, 2014, 09:04:40 PM
Looks like Tosaw spent $50,000 of his own money on looking for Cooper....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoTsnNGxRUs
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 24, 2014, 12:44:56 AM
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Looks like Tosaw spent $50,000 of his own money on looking for Cooper....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoTsnNGxRUs

 ... and found nothing, which is important.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 24, 2014, 01:37:10 AM
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Looks like Tosaw spent $50,000 of his own money on looking for Cooper....

 ... and found nothing, which is important.

The money at Tina Bar had apparently already been found and Tosaw assumed that it had come down the river.  Consequently, he was looking for things on the bottom of the channel.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 24, 2014, 01:43:25 AM
What did he find? .. uh-huh. >:(

How come no one talks about Alice Hancock? What happened to her in the 70's after the hijacking?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 24, 2014, 02:30:50 AM
Tosaw found a pilot chute on the wooden dam just upstream from Tina Bar.

I'd love to talk with ALice, but I can't find her.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 24, 2014, 04:28:14 AM
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What did he find? .. uh-huh. >:(

How come no one talks about Alice Hancock? What happened to her in the 70's after the hijacking?

We have been talking about her for years - go read the thread at DZ. 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on December 24, 2014, 04:29:26 AM
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Tosaw found a pilot chute on the wooden dam just upstream from Tina Bar.

I'd love to talk with ALice, but I can't find her.

No he didn't. The FBI has it. Tosaw didn't find it - someone else did. It isn't a pilot chute!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 24, 2014, 01:45:02 PM
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Tosaw found a pilot chute on the wooden dam just upstream from Tina Bar.

I'd love to talk with ALice, but I can't find her.

No he didn't. The FBI has it. Tosaw didn't find it - someone else did. It isn't a pilot chute!

As Georger knows, there was a long discussion about this chute on the other thread and I think the evidence points to it being a part of a parachute that was used with flares during artillery night time training at the Yakima Training Center which is way upstream from Tina Bar.  Somehow, it worked its way into the Columbia River and then headed downstream. 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 24, 2014, 04:55:23 PM
I missed that DZ discussion.

What I know is that Galen told me a lengthy story about Tosaw finding the a 2-foot-by-three-foot pilot chute in the river upstream from T-Bar. One of Tosaw's divers found it.

Galen joined him at the site shortly thereafter, as I recall.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 25, 2014, 12:43:36 PM
Merry Christmas to all of you!

It has been my pleasure here but, the situation is becoming an impossible one.

(and a Merry Christmas to you Tina.)

 ;)


Shutter adds: Exactly how are things impossible. people ask questions when one has no answer!! you need to back up what you are saying vs running away.

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 25, 2014, 01:29:49 PM
 Thursday, November 22, 2001

By JON HAHN
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER COLUMNIST



There's some that say that Jerry Curtis drove around the block one time too many in his 30-some years as a Seattle taxi driver, but he swears one of his drive-around passengers was D.B. Cooper.

And it was about a month before the infamous Cooper's pulling off the only successful American skyjacking, on Thanksgiving Eve, 1971.

"In fact, I was probably the guy who helped him decide to do an airplane," said Jerry, "because I talked him out of robbing a West Seattle supermarket."

 Jerry, a Navy veteran who now lives on a meager disability in Granite Falls, said he has "no reason or hope of any gain by telling this now, but it should be told. I didn't put it all together until weeks after the hijacking, and I never told anyone until years later, and then they looked at me as though I said I'd seen Elvis Presley."

 Jerry sent his story on tape, then met with me in Arlington, and swears that the unidentified passenger who asked for him by name at Gray Top Cab on that Saturday afternoon in October 1971, was the same guy later identified as Dan Cooper, aka D.B. Cooper.

 "I didn't have any action going at the Mayflower Hotel then -- sometimes I'd take care of stuff for drunken seamen in town, or maybe a working lady hiding from her pimp -- but not on that day," he said. The man had used a direct line to call the cab company and asked for Jerry by name.

 After a brief back-and-forth, Jerry determined that this was the man his lawyer earlier said had been asking for someone like him. "My lawyer wouldn't say what or why," Jerry recalled. "In fact, he said only that the guy was a client who needed someone like me, but that was all he was gonna say about it."

 Long story, short: The swarthy, athletically built fellow, maybe about 6-feet and maybe in his mid-40s and dressed in a light blue leisure suit, shiny white loafers and matching belt, put $5 on the cab seat and said he wanted to ride around and talk ... about his plan for robbing a West Seattle supermarket. "He said he came here every year to do a job, then went back home over the mountains and plowed the money back into his business," Jerry said.

 "He said he was a solid citizen, belonging to the Junior Chamber of Commerce and the Lions, and that he had a wife, two kids, a station wagon and a German shepherd. His plan was to put on a pair of white overalls and rob a supermarket and then ditch the overalls so that he'd look like a businessman taking a cab ride.

 Even though the stranger offered him half of the take, Jerry nixed the idea, telling the guy that "whenever anything heavy goes down in West Seattle, the cops always block off the five or six main routes in and out of there." They talked some more as Jerry drove him back to the Mayflower Hotel, where the man ended the session by saying that he "was gonna go back home and think about doing something else. He said he had an idea about 'doing something with an airplane,'" Jerry said.

 About a month later, Jerry was driving cab again when he heard the skyjacking action on his police scanner and saw the Northwest Airlines Boeing 727 isolated to one side at Sea-Tac Airport while police and airline officials scrambled to fill a duffle bag with more than 20 pounds of used $20 bills.

 "But I didn't think any more of it till they released the composite sketch of this Cooper guy a week or so later. That was him. It was the same guy who wanted to rob a West Seattle supermarket!"

 Jerry wasn't convinced when I showed him a wire photo of Duane Web, who according to a news story last year confessed on his death bed that he was Dan Cooper. Web, who died of kidney disease in 1995, apparently filled some of the D.B. Cooper profile, including familiarity with the Puget Sound area, Army service and a criminal record that included serving time in a Seattle-area prison. My own searching was unable to link Web to the Cooper profile. And the Seattle lawyer who Jerry said referred the stranger to him has died.

 Leaving us with another chapter in Puget Sound's Thanksgiving folklore. We could call this one: "Cabbie Talks Turkey Into Stuffing West Seattle -- Coop Flies & Flees With Big Holiday Score."
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 25, 2014, 01:32:55 PM
FBI rejects latest D.B. Cooper suspect
Bonney Lake man accused of crime
 October 26, 2007
 
A man identified in a recent magazine article as possibly having been the infamous plane hijacker D.B. Cooper was almost certainly not him, the FBI said Friday.

 While the man's face resembled a composite sketch of Cooper, the height, weight, eye color and skin tone were all too far off, said Special Agent Larry Carr, who has been assigned to the long-unsolved case for the past six months.

 Cooper hijacked a Northwest Orient Airlines flight from Portland in 1971 and parachuted out with $200,000 in ransom money. His fate remains unknown, but Carr said he believes Cooper died in the jump.

 New York magazine recently located a Minnesota man, Lyle Christiansen, who believed his brother Kenneth of Bonney Lake -- a Northwest employee and former paratrooper -- was D.B. Cooper.

But the man was 5-foot-8 and 150 pounds, at least 4 inches shorter and about 30 pounds lighter than Cooper. Kenneth Christiansen, who died of cancer in 1994, had hazel eyes, not brown, and he had pale skin, not olive.

"He's not a viable suspect," FBI spokeswoman Robbie Burroughs said.

Though the case has been dormant in recent years, Carr said he plans to release details never before seen by the public -- including notes written by the flight attendants and conversations between the plane and the tower -- in hopes that will prompt new clues.

In the hijacking, a man who identified himself as Dan Cooper boarded a plane headed for Seattle on Nov. 24, 1971, told the crew once the plane was in the air that he had a bomb and demanded $200,000 and parachutes. When the plane landed at Seattle, he released the passengers in exchange for the money and ordered the pilot to fly toward Mexico. While in the air, Cooper apparently then jumped from the rear stairway of the plane.

The jumper later became known as D.B. Cooper after authorities questioned and then released a man named Daniel B. Cooper. That man was cleared, but the name stuck
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 25, 2014, 01:36:57 PM
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Thursday, November 22, 2001

By JON HAHN
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER COLUMNIST



There's some that say that Jerry Curtis drove around the block one time too many in his 30-some years as a Seattle taxi driver, but he swears one of his drive-around passengers was D.B. Cooper.

And it was about a month before the infamous Cooper's pulling off the only successful American skyjacking, on Thanksgiving Eve, 1971.

"In fact, I was probably the guy who helped him decide to do an airplane," said Jerry, "because I talked him out of robbing a West Seattle supermarket."

 Jerry, a Navy veteran who now lives on a meager disability in Granite Falls, said he has "no reason or hope of any gain by telling this now, but it should be told. I didn't put it all together until weeks after the hijacking, and I never told anyone until years later, and then they looked at me as though I said I'd seen Elvis Presley."

 Jerry sent his story on tape, then met with me in Arlington, and swears that the unidentified passenger who asked for him by name at Gray Top Cab on that Saturday afternoon in October 1971, was the same guy later identified as Dan Cooper, aka D.B. Cooper.

 "I didn't have any action going at the Mayflower Hotel then -- sometimes I'd take care of stuff for drunken seamen in town, or maybe a working lady hiding from her pimp -- but not on that day," he said. The man had used a direct line to call the cab company and asked for Jerry by name.

 After a brief back-and-forth, Jerry determined that this was the man his lawyer earlier said had been asking for someone like him. "My lawyer wouldn't say what or why," Jerry recalled. "In fact, he said only that the guy was a client who needed someone like me, but that was all he was gonna say about it."

 Long story, short: The swarthy, athletically built fellow, maybe about 6-feet and maybe in his mid-40s and dressed in a light blue leisure suit, shiny white loafers and matching belt, put $5 on the cab seat and said he wanted to ride around and talk ... about his plan for robbing a West Seattle supermarket. "He said he came here every year to do a job, then went back home over the mountains and plowed the money back into his business," Jerry said.

 "He said he was a solid citizen, belonging to the Junior Chamber of Commerce and the Lions, and that he had a wife, two kids, a station wagon and a German shepherd. His plan was to put on a pair of white overalls and rob a supermarket and then ditch the overalls so that he'd look like a businessman taking a cab ride.

 Even though the stranger offered him half of the take, Jerry nixed the idea, telling the guy that "whenever anything heavy goes down in West Seattle, the cops always block off the five or six main routes in and out of there." They talked some more as Jerry drove him back to the Mayflower Hotel, where the man ended the session by saying that he "was gonna go back home and think about doing something else. He said he had an idea about 'doing something with an airplane,'" Jerry said.

 About a month later, Jerry was driving cab again when he heard the skyjacking action on his police scanner and saw the Northwest Airlines Boeing 727 isolated to one side at Sea-Tac Airport while police and airline officials scrambled to fill a duffle bag with more than 20 pounds of used $20 bills.

 "But I didn't think any more of it till they released the composite sketch of this Cooper guy a week or so later. That was him. It was the same guy who wanted to rob a West Seattle supermarket!"

 Jerry wasn't convinced when I showed him a wire photo of Duane Web, who according to a news story last year confessed on his death bed that he was Dan Cooper. Web, who died of kidney disease in 1995, apparently filled some of the D.B. Cooper profile, including familiarity with the Puget Sound area, Army service and a criminal record that included serving time in a Seattle-area prison. My own searching was unable to link Web to the Cooper profile. And the Seattle lawyer who Jerry said referred the stranger to him has died.

 Leaving us with another chapter in Puget Sound's Thanksgiving folklore. We could call this one: "Cabbie Talks Turkey Into Stuffing West Seattle -- Coop Flies & Flees With Big Holiday Score."

The above story does not pass the smell test.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 25, 2014, 01:40:27 PM
It's right up Bruce's alley though  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 25, 2014, 02:37:42 PM
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Merry Christmas to all of you!

It has been my pleasure here but, the situation is becoming an impossible one.

(and a Merry Christmas to you Tina.)

 ;)


Shutter adds: Exactly how are things impossible. people ask questions when one has no answer!! you need to back up what you are saying vs running away.

Picture could be those zinc flowers found on Cooper's tie... Any thoughts, or do I have to beg?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 25, 2014, 02:44:40 PM
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Merry Christmas to all of you!

It has been my pleasure here but, the situation is becoming an impossible one.

(and a Merry Christmas to you Tina.)

 ;)


Shutter adds: Exactly how are things impossible. people ask questions when one has no answer!! you need to back up what you are saying vs running away.

Picture could be those zinc flowers found on Cooper's tie... Any thoughts, or do I have to beg?


What zinc flowers? the pic itself you are referring too? and the possibility this is from the tie?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 25, 2014, 04:52:57 PM
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Merry Christmas to all of you!

It has been my pleasure here but, the situation is becoming an impossible one.

(and a Merry Christmas to you Tina.)

 ;)


Shutter adds: Exactly how are things impossible. people ask questions when one has no answer!! you need to back up what you are saying vs running away.

Picture could be those zinc flowers found on Cooper's tie... Any thoughts, or do I have to beg?


What zinc flowers? the pic itself you are referring too? and the possibility this is from the tie?

Bottom right photo, I'd attach it but I don't want to violate Kaye's [& et al.] copyright:

http://www.citizensleuths.com/misc-particles.html (http://www.citizensleuths.com/misc-particles.html)

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 25, 2014, 05:28:39 PM
I think this is a Georger area. I'm weak in this area, and don't know much about this stuff..

Zinc flowers: Noun 1.   flowers of zinc - oxide of zinc; a white powder used as a pigment or in cosmetics or glass or inks and in zinc ointment.

His angle could be Cooper wore makeup.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 25, 2014, 06:19:35 PM
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I think this is a Georger area. I'm weak in this area, and don't know much about this stuff..

Zinc flowers: Noun 1.   flowers of zinc - oxide of zinc; a white powder used as a pigment or in cosmetics or glass or inks and in zinc ointment.

His angle could be Cooper wore makeup.

Kaye says "zinc" and not zinc-oxide. I dunno... Zinc oxide is used in so many places it may not be helpful... unless the tetrahedral form of it is special in some way.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 26, 2014, 07:59:47 PM
Looks like the younger generation made a rap song about DB Cooper...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdtRaTTMPEE
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: hom on December 27, 2014, 05:17:15 AM
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I stayed far away from naming the specific groups and people in those groups that worked the problem at McChord ... for fear of being dead wrong and not wishing to release names. I may name the groups I have later, and you or someone can tell me how totally wrong I am. I will expect the worst!    :)   :)

I've taken just one lesson, from an old guy that claims to be a wizard, on being a seer.  He seems legit, but he's charging me a bundle, so I'd like to figure out if it's really working.  re. the above, I'm "seeing" (maybe just "feeling," but I'm hoping it's "seeing"):  a building supply ordinal...... and what a civilian might abbreviate "RES."

That's all I'm getting right now.  Anyway, I hope you hurry so I can see how I'm doing. :)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on January 03, 2015, 01:46:49 AM
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I stayed far away from naming the specific groups and people in those groups that worked the problem at McChord ... for fear of being dead wrong and not wishing to release names. I may name the groups I have later, and you or someone can tell me how totally wrong I am. I will expect the worst!    :)   :)

I've taken just one lesson, from an old guy that claims to be a wizard, on being a seer.  He seems legit, but he's charging me a bundle, so I'd like to figure out if it's really working.  re. the above, I'm "seeing" (maybe just "feeling," but I'm hoping it's "seeing"):  a building supply ordinal...... and what a civilian might abbreviate "RES."

That's all I'm getting right now.  Anyway, I hope you hurry so I can see how I'm doing. :)

I smell holly hocks! No. Holly hocks and snow. Freshly fallen snow. Now I smell a stove ... over heating. A fire. Souls dashing around, yelling, screaming, back door slams many times ... holly hocks can't communicate but are trying! It's December 31st and minus 2-0 but the holly hocks are still somehow alive ... communicating ... with grandma. More smoke. Fire! Yep that's it!   Wiener roast on December 31st, 1930.  They all survived.  At least I can sleep tonight...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on January 03, 2015, 06:56:05 PM
Seems it took 64 years to find this guy, and his plane in Washington.

Missing flier comes out of thin air
Chance and sleuthing solve 60-year mystery of North Cascades

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Missing-flier-comes-out-of-thin-air-1123103.php

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/p-38/41-2276.html
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on January 09, 2015, 09:42:19 PM
I've seen this video before, but didn't catch what Captain Scott said. "after recalculating the flight path, they were looking in the wrong place"

How much radar data is playing a role here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTSen8EFTZE
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on January 18, 2015, 12:41:00 AM
Here's one I never heard of before. Cooper using bad language? a 1996 article with Jerry Thomas, and quotes from Himmel..

Quote
He used filthy language and although he was generally calm, he drank whiskey and smoked at least eight Raleigh filter-tip cigarettes while on the plane. He tried to give one of the attendants a $20 tip, but she refused.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19961117&slug=2360262

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on January 22, 2015, 08:19:41 PM
Video made by a kid for school. he did pretty good. I heard a few error's. but he did good...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkKpE7vbw9k
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on January 23, 2015, 01:38:12 AM
I like this kid.

He even cites Marcia Lusted and her book on Cooper, which was written for the young adult market.  Marcia a cool gal.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on January 23, 2015, 03:58:25 PM
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Here's one I never heard of before. Cooper using bad language? a 1996 article with Jerry Thomas, and quotes from Himmel..

Quote
He used filthy language and although he was generally calm, he drank whiskey and smoked at least eight Raleigh filter-tip cigarettes while on the plane. He tried to give one of the attendants a $20 tip, but she refused.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19961117&slug=2360262

Old news - the real hijacker vs the myth of DB Cooper, the sad polite person as peddled by .... Jo Weber and Robert M Blevins.

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 12, 2015, 04:24:53 AM
377 says:

"Wrong Robert. Doe warrants have been litigated in the appellate courts and found to be legal. I agree with your logic though. It was unequal treatment.

Prosecuting Cooper now, in the absence of unambiguous evidence of guilt such as fingerprints that were found on the plane and linked to the skyjacker would be VERY difficult given the FBI's loss of the most probative physical evidence: Cooper's cigarette butts. They are potential exculpatory evidence and their loss would support a VERY strong motion to dismiss based on spoliation of material evidence."  377    (This post was edited by 377 on Feb 11, 2015, 11:58 PM)


Well, if Appellate Courts have found John Doe warrants 'legal' then by definition there is no issue involving "equity"!
This even raises the issue of 'Cooper' being a special case! Issues of equity may not even apply just as in issues of terrorism ... much might depend on who the alleged Cooper was and his connection to National Security issues.

A Cooper John Doe Warrant may be be equal to just 'any john doe warrant' in some ordinary crime?

Prosecuting old cases usually involves higher levels of certainty in evidence? That probably would be the case in any modern prosecution of an alleged Cooper.  Likewise, forensic science today has advanced light years since 1971 so any forensic evidence is very likely going to have a sound statistical foundation by modern standards. Who keeps saying any prosecution of a Cooper must rely on cigarette butts (alone)? Or that the butts were ever lost - that is social media hearsay! Nor is it the FBI prosecuting anyone. It would a Federal Prosecutor's Office which would probably have high standards of it's own.

It's not for any of us to Judge in any event, in the social media!

 :)   






 
 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on February 12, 2015, 10:11:36 AM
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377 says:

"Wrong Robert. Doe warrants have been litigated in the appellate courts and found to be legal. I agree with your logic though. It was unequal treatment.

Prosecuting Cooper now, in the absence of unambiguous evidence of guilt such as fingerprints that were found on the plane and linked to the skyjacker would be VERY difficult given the FBI's loss of the most probative physical evidence: Cooper's cigarette butts. They are potential exculpatory evidence and their loss would support a VERY strong motion to dismiss based on spoliation of material evidence."  377    (This post was edited by 377 on Feb 11, 2015, 11:58 PM)


Well, if Appellate Courts have found John Doe warrants 'legal' then by definition there is no issue involving "equity"!
This even raises the issue of 'Cooper' being a special case! Issues of equity may not even apply just as in issues of terrorism ... much might depend on who the alleged Cooper was and his connection to National Security issues.

A Cooper John Doe Warrant may be be equal to just 'any john doe warrant' in some ordinary crime?

Prosecuting old cases usually involves higher levels of certainty in evidence? That probably would be the case in any modern prosecution of an alleged Cooper.  Likewise, forensic science today has advanced light years since 1971 so any forensic evidence is very likely going to have a sound statistical foundation by modern standards. Who keeps saying any prosecution of a Cooper must rely on cigarette butts (alone)? Or that the butts were ever lost - that is social media hearsay! Nor is it the FBI prosecuting anyone. It would a Federal Prosecutor's Office which would probably have high standards of it's own.

It's not for any of us to Judge in any event, in the social media!

 :)

I have another issue with the idea that Cooper would have a big party on the fifth anniversary because he was off scot-free.  Again, I'm not a lawyer, don't play one on TV and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express.  But, even if the he did evade criminal liability, that doesn't mean he'd avoid civil liability.   Not too wise to have a big party and then have an insurance company sue you  to recover the $200,000.

Another idea that Robert proposes also doesn't make logical sense.  Why would Cooper leave money on Tina Bar so the FBI would think he died in the jump?  If you committed a crime eight years prior and it's only being worked as evidence comes in (probably by a single agent), why would you trigger lots of time, agents and money taking a fresh look at the case?  There is an adage about letting sleeping dogs lie.  That would seem to be the wise course here.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 12, 2015, 10:42:51 AM
It never made sense for Cooper to plant the money to throw them off the trail, or think he died. they already believe he died in the jump, and they were no where close to "being on his trail"

If you really want to get there attention, send them a twenty dollar bill. why risk someone keeping the cash. that was the original thought by the Ingram's in the first place.

Did Tina accept the money offered, who knows? did guilt riddle her through out the years? one can only speculate this avenue, but it would make the most sense if a plant was involved IMHO.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on February 12, 2015, 11:17:30 AM
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It never made sense for Cooper to plant the money to throw them off the trail, or think he died. they already believe he died in the jump, and they were no where close to "being on his trail"

If you really want to get there attention, send them a twenty dollar bill. why risk someone keeping the cash. that was the original thought by the Ingram's in the first place.

Did Tina accept the money offered, who knows? did guilt riddle her through out the years? one can only speculate this avenue, but it would make the most sense if a plant was involved IMHO.

The problem with a plant is that the money had apparently been at, or very near to, Tina Bar for a number of years.  It had also been underwater and buried in sand during the annual floods and there was no realistic expectation that it would actually ever be found.  And it was only by pure chance that it was found.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 12, 2015, 01:49:11 PM
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It never made sense for Cooper to plant the money to throw them off the trail, or think he died. they already believe he died in the jump, and they were no where close to "being on his trail"

If you really want to get there attention, send them a twenty dollar bill. why risk someone keeping the cash. that was the original thought by the Ingram's in the first place.

Did Tina accept the money offered, who knows? did guilt riddle her through out the years? one can only speculate this avenue, but it would make the most sense if a plant was involved IMHO.

The problem with a plant is that the money had apparently been at, or very near to, Tina Bar for a number of years.  It had also been underwater and buried in sand during the annual floods and there was no realistic expectation that it would actually ever be found.  And it was only by pure chance that it was found.

Well, like a lot of conspiracy ideas, the poster at DZ is lumping a lot of falsehoods together to support an unprovable conclusion. (a) Tina is the key. (b) Tina equals Tina Bar. (c) Cooper had a fixation on Tina. (d) Cooper and Tina spent 45 minutes 'in secret'. (e) Safercracking is a better hydrologist than Bradley! (f) Safecracking considered tributaries Bradley didn't consider. (g) Safecracking's list of flow opportunities is comprehensive and he missed nothing... (h) The flight path is correct. (i) The drop zone (which one?) is correct! (j) Safecracking knows the correct flight path and drop zone! (k) There was no fragment field distributed through strata at T_Bar.  (l) Lab analysis of the bills would show they were only buried for a brief period of months (1971 to date). (m) Lab analysis of the bills would show the only place they have ever been in contact with the Earth is at Tina Bar. (n) There is no forensic evidence the Cooper bills were ever in contact with 1974 dredging sediments because those sediments were gone by 1979 when the Cooper money was planted in a location never contaminated by '74 dredge sediments. (o) All deterioration of the money and rubber bands occurred between the time Cooper planted it and it's discovery Feb 1980. (p) bundles of money cannot flow to Tina Bar and stay intact. (q) Cooper had a plan for getting Tina to dig up her money at Tina Bar. (r) Cooper sent a message to Tina. (s) Tina would never have told the FBI or her close friend Rataczak about being contacted by Cooper. (t) Tina went into seclusion because she had been contacted by Cooper, and she never told the FBI about this? (u) Cooper survived his jump with the money. (v) The Ingrams all lied about the discovery. (w) debris capable of bringing money bundles or a bag with it never arrives on Tina Bar via flow, from anywhere! (x) condition 'w' has never happened at Tina Bar between 11-24-71 and 2-12-80. (y) The FBI timeline of hijacking events and drop is correct. (z) Safecracking and the poster know what the correct timeline of events was/is. (aleph) ...  and the list goes on ...

In my opinion, the new poster's theory at DZ is a variant of the GreyCop theory, which was previously handled and dismissed. Maybe he has some new information and proofs not considered before? It's new-old news ?   :o
 

         
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 14, 2015, 07:26:02 PM
Does anyone know where the English version of this is?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDp6nfUWx4k
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 22, 2015, 12:18:39 AM
And the A-cad-omy Award to be presented tomorrow night, goes to Robert M Blevins, of Adventure Books which is not in Seattle as advertised either: for his alleged new 13 year old witness who Blev says has now testified that Kenny was making fake bombs made out of short rolls of quarters bound with red electrical tape, which sock puppet Blev says may account for the  8 red stick bomb Schaffner and Mucklow described Cooper having! (Whew! That was a mouthful!). Blevins Nation says quote:

The mother stated she was about 13 years old at the time. She said that not long before the hijacking, she walked into a shed on the Geestmans’ property and Kenny Christiansen was inside. He was working on something, and he turned to her and said, “You’re not supposed to be in here.” So she turned and left the shed. But before she did, she says, she got a good look at what he was doing. Allegedly, she saw Kenny wrapping red electrical tape around filled paper coin tubes, the type used to store quarters.* In addition, she says he was attaching wires to the coin tubes at the same time. And that these tubes were assembled two at a time to make one longer tube.

*This girl saw a lot in an instant of entering, being commanded to leave, and leaving quickly! She was able to count and describe every detail of what Kenny was working on but the hairs on Kenny's arms! The 13 year old girl must have a photographic memory! No mention of a brief case by the girl.

*The stews describe the bomb as consisting of 8 sticks (four top, four bottom) taped together, wires, and a roundish battery thingy. Total weight unknown.  All in a briefcase. Dynamite is approx 8" long x 1/1/4" weighing 8oz each. 8 sticks = approx 4 lbs. Say 1lb for battery ... total bomb weight excluding brief case approx 5lbs.

* Now lets look at quarters. Single roll of quarters is ~1" thick x 2 3/16" long. Each roll weighs approx 8 oz. It would take four 2 3/16" long rolls of quarters to approximate one 8 inch stick of dyn-o-mite. Forget for a moment dyn-o-mite is 1 1/4" thick while a roll of quarters is only approx 1" thick. The bomb built with quarters plus a battery weighs a minimum 17-18 pounds. The bomb from real dynamite weighs only: approx 5lbs. But, what is a 17-20 pound bomb for Kenny carry? Nothing! Kenny is used to ditch digging and is a manly mann! A real hunk of a man! The heavier the better. That's how manly bombs go! Kenny was probably sad that is weighed only 17-21 pounds while those coin tubes flopped around inside the brief case like dead fish! Yepper!

* Dynamite consists of paper wrapped tubes. Flexure is not an issue. The tubes are a strong solid tube.

*Joining paper rolls of quarters by means of a tape wrap introduces flexure at each joint. The fake tubes would bend at each joint due to the weight of the quarters. For a calculation of the flexure go here and calculate: http://mathcentral.uregina.ca/QQ/database/QQ.09.07/s/eric1.html 

I await Blevins' calculations on flexure of his fake dynamite sticks made from rolls of quarters over wrapped with red electrical tape. I think it will take until Hell freezes over before we have an answer on this critical issue from Adventure Books in Apt D at Auburn WA (which is not in Seattle as Blevins advertises!)

One gets the sense this is all a film script Blevins is writing?

Blevins let me give you some help: think gluing tubes together in addition to wrapping limp paper coin tubes with red  electrical tube. As in building model rockets! You do want this fiction to work and seem plausible, don't chu? Chew on it for a while and issue another REVISED-REVISED VERSION. You dcan it too to the FBI on Tuesday. I am sure they would welcome hearing from yous, and all of yous at G&R Houscleaning/Seattlke Adentire Boophs or whatever.  ???  :) 

     


 
   
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 22, 2015, 12:31:15 AM
Quote
One gets the sense this is all a film script Blevins is writing?

That makes more sense than anything. why go through all that hassle? just cut some wood dowels for cry'n out loud   :o

Zip can be verified of what he claims these people are saying.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 22, 2015, 12:38:54 AM
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Quote
One gets the sense this is all a film script Blevins is writing?

That makes more sense than anything. why go through all that hassle? just cut some wood dowels for cry'n out loud   :o

Zip can be verified of what he claims these people are saying.

Thank Christ Cooper didn't have a nuclear accelerator - those are Heavy! It would take 500 years to build one of those with glue and red tape and match sticks all firing at once@! Tina would have been blinded life!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 22, 2015, 12:40:43 AM
1.25 x 8 is not the only size dynamite comes in....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 22, 2015, 12:59:14 AM
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1.25 x 8 is not the only size dynamite comes in....

Mucklow's description:

Mucklow: In briefcase left corner had 8 sticks of dynamite about 6 inches
long and 1 inch in diameter. Two rows of them then a wire out of there.
Then a battery lite, a flashlight battery only as thick as my arm and 8
inches long.


BTW: I went to Wiki today and checked out the latest Wiki version of the Cooper hijacking. The bulk of the bomb description on Wiki is by Schaffner, not Mucklow?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 22, 2015, 01:08:14 AM
I always thought it was Flo Cooper showed the bomb to?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 22, 2015, 01:45:46 AM
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I always thought it was Flo Cooper showed the bomb to?

Flo first then Mucklow later. Mucklow gave a report for the FBI over the radio at about 7:57

/7:57 pm    t1  [ Mucklow describes bomb to Gnd Control …]
MSP:    Have stewardess describe to you the brief case contents. Understand red dynamite sticks wire and battery
305:      Mucklow: In briefcase left corner had 8 sticks of dynamite about 6 inches
long and 1 inch in diameter. Two rows of them then a wire out of there.
Then a battery lite, a flashlight battery only as thick as my arm and 8
inches long.
MSP:       Roger.  /
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 22, 2015, 02:34:46 AM
So, basically Kenny used about $320 worth of quarters to make his bomb? the extremely poor guy? crappy cheap NWO employee?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on February 22, 2015, 01:14:39 PM
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So, basically Kenny used about $320 worth of quarters to make his bomb? the extremely poor guy? crappy cheap NWO employee?

I doubt that KC would throw those quarters away and that would further compound his parachuting problems.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 22, 2015, 01:29:06 PM
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So, basically Kenny used about $320 worth of quarters to make his bomb? the extremely poor guy? crappy cheap NWO employee?

I doubt that KC would throw those quarters away and that would further compound his parachuting problems.


None of it makes any sense. the guy was basically poor according to Bobby (borderline indigent) not a pot to piss in etc. etc. $300 was a lot of money in 1971. it's like the thinking of today's times vs 1971. the whole thing sound suspect. then you have the detailed memory of something that had no reason to recall in the first place.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 22, 2015, 02:44:43 PM
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So, basically Kenny used about $320 worth of quarters to make his bomb? the extremely poor guy? crappy cheap NWO employee?

I doubt that KC would throw those quarters away and that would further compound his parachuting problems.

The whole story reads like a cheap novel. Ties Kenny's coin collecting together with bomb making.  Witnessed by a genius 13 year old with photographic memory, who probably reads palms and Standard & Poors as a hobby! The construction details (techniques) are those of a three year old. (That alone types and identifies the author). But Kenny was a manly-man and could carry such weight. How did he affix the articles inside a brief case so they didn't all roll downhill to the bottom, or is physics suspended inside airplane cavities once again?

I just want to point out: this is the kind of story one hears on Ward-C every day of the week, a million times over.

Next we will be told those quarters were special and had no cores or value, as well as special healing power! 

The FBI deals with nuts like this every day!     
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 22, 2015, 02:57:53 PM
You can use road flares, or wood dowels. go to an arts and crafts shop for the paper...done.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 22, 2015, 03:16:25 PM
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You can use road flares, or wood dowels. go to an arts and crafts shop for the paper...done.

No! There must be a story and a witness! A manly-man doing something stupid and obtuse .... that works! It's called genius! The plot has to have the trappings of genius in it ... because the author is a genius!  It can't be rational and ordinary! >:( 

You see:  Kenny must have an alien in his chest that springs out and becomes D.B. Cooper! Kenny doesn't even know the alien is there! Poor sweat-sweet Kenny. Bernie is the alien! All endes well. Kenny survives to die of cancer in the real world later. They sew Kenny back up with a large upholstery needle and fence wire ... because Kenny is a Manly-Man. Sweat-sweet coin collecting Kenny survives and Bernie and That Woman and all the other Wage Earner Sheeple are arrested by the FBI and Blevins is the hero, given an Academy Award for Biggest Bull Shitter of the Year at Good Ole Days in August.  The FBI refuses to attend because in Blevins words: "They are full of hate. It's no big deal. Truly...I would LOVE to post the entire document up publicly at our website. It's too big a file to post to Dropzone anyway. It far exceeds their file limit, to the heavy number of images." 

See? It has a happy ending!  ???   

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 22, 2015, 04:33:42 PM
Blevins does produce a more tangible 'genius level reason' for the quarters:

Our theory is that once Kenny landed, he simply broke up one or two of the rolls and started looking for a pay phone. Back in 1971 you could find them almost anywhere, not like now. And yes...this is conjecture...but I can almost imagine such a phone call to Geestman:

It isn't just Blevins thinking all of this up. It's Gayla and Blevins! Blevins has said "Our theory is" countless times since he came to DZ in 2010. Blevins is just the stand-up guy for other people behind the scenes at socalled AB Books of Seattle - which is in an apartment 'D' at Auburn WA! Blevins can't even tell the truth about who he is and who "Our theory is", is! This whole thing is just one more sham in Cooperland (his invention again).

So, why does RMB-etal even need a witness to KC making a bomb out of rolls of quarters?  Either there was one or she is an invention too?  He identifies a named person, people could talk to? I hope her account matches AB Book's account of her? In any event the socalled witness saw something. it is Blevins contending this girl saw the making of a fake bomb! The girl doesn't say that.

Blevins says the girl saw Kenny sticking electrical wires into the tape wrapped rolls of quarters?  In 1971? This almost sounds like this?  The Townsend Brown Levitator.  Or the Townsend Brown's gravitator  http://alienscientist.com/brown.html.   See this for the device made with rolls of quarters!  Brown Levitator: http://www.rexresearch.com/ttbrown/ttbrown.htm     

And they say an education in Physics is a waste of time!  :) :) :)

So, not only was Kenny building a fake bomb, he was also apparently trying to build an anti-gravity device, levitator, called the Townsend Brown Gravitator ...... made from rolls of quarters? They were all the rage in the 1960 and 70s!

Has Blevins made a Brown Gravitor is his research on anti-gravity? He is an admitted UFO fan and likes Area-51!

Has Blevins now joined his Kenny-DB Cooper story to Anti-Gravity?

That's it! Kenny was trying to build a 'Brown Gravitator' also called a 'Levitator' out of rolls of quarters! Kenny was a Manly-man interested in anti-gravity which was all the rage in the 1960 -1970s, using a Popular Science or Popular Mechanics Magazine article on how to build the Brown Gravitor out of rolls of quarters!

Gee-whillakers! Kenny was a genius! In addition to being DB Cooper and a manly-man-of-men and pursors and coin collector! Kenny in addition to all his others talents and wisdoms-knoweldge about everything, was also an 'amateur scientist' who read Popular Mechanics and Popular Science ... just like the people at Adventire Books do!?

I knew!!! I had seen this god-damned thing before! It took me a while to count all the quarters!  Well, there you have it folks and kids and ladies and gents and 'wage earner sheeple': The fake DB Cooper Bomb which is also a Townsend Brown Gravitator-Levitator! How many points do I get? Have I won this contest yet!? I have places to go and sheep to count. We are busy folks in the Office of Debunking! Send that 13 year little lady in for her free lolly pop! She has also won a free genuine meteorite from Mars. YEPPER!   
 
What's next in the Adventire Books/Jo Weber case file of the paranormal and downright obtuse?

Kenny wanted the little girl out of the shed in case the thing blew up on him ^ her! Nice guy Kenny! Too nice to be a hijacker or a member of the Adventure Books Staff!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 22, 2015, 06:16:35 PM
How did he call Geestman? he was at the trailer park waiting for him to land. payphone to payphone? I can't remember, was the number on the payphone?

Originally he dropped Kenny off at Portland, then went to the trailer park near the jump zone. Now, he saying it's possible Kenny wanted out early because he lives by SEA. so, why wasn't Bernie camping up near Seattle, and not down where they think he jumped?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 23, 2015, 12:55:45 AM
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How did he call Geestman? he was at the trailer park waiting for him to land. payphone to payphone? I can't remember, was the number on the payphone?

Originally he dropped Kenny off at Portland, then went to the trailer park near the jump zone. Now, he saying it's possible Kenny wanted out early because he lives by SEA. so, why wasn't Bernie camping up near Seattle, and not down where they think he jumped?

Damned if I know - why he wouldn't camp closer to where KC intended to bail? Maybe fear of getting caught, I suppose. ?

The park has a pay phone at the entrance, as I recall. Geestman and Kenny were going to meet up on the phone, somehow. Geestman must have good ears! Camps inside the park and can hear phone 1/2 mile away? Nah. He would have hung out by the phone drinking Bud's waiting, and explaining to ranger patrol who he was and why he was  'waiting for a call from Foss Tugboats' on that phone! ? It happens in novels all the time! :) :) :)

Jo has thrown a wet cat at Blev for his 'coin bomb thingy' and Blev has replied saying the usual "I dont care what anyone thinks" and refers to Georger's "hate mongering hate filled posts at the alternate site". Thanks for the publicity, Blev!

"Hate is as hate does": Forrest Gump. "The meek shall inherit the Earth': Jesus.

After I made by brilliant post above it occurred to me maybe Lyle the patent guy, gave Blevins the idea for the quarter-roll dynamite tubes? We know Lyle is an 'idea guy' with many patents to his credit.

Two other remarkable coincides present themselves in Blevins' report at Dropzone, the alternate site1.  :)

His description of the bomb reads like Mucklows description in the transcript - very detailed! Is Blevins trying to duplicate the literary style of the PI Transcripts!?

Secondly, his description of the girl turning and looking is exactly like the description of Tina 'turning and looking' at Cooper. Is this supposed to evoke acceptance in the reader? Tina vs 13 year old girl? Both truthful!

Third: his description of how the coin bomb works mechanically is very detailed, far-far above what any 13 year old would say (or most could say) especially having spent mere seconds inside that shed .... ?

All-in-all the story is well scripted for the present. If I apply the Geoff Gray Transformation to Blevin's claims, 100% minus 99.9% leaves .1% that is maybe true. "Everything he says is very highly doubtful. Very very very. VERY HIGHLY!"

The good news is: Blevins doesn't give a shit. He says so. So we can all sleep well tonight banking that Blevins is a man of his word and "doesn't give a shit what anyone says or thinks"!

As an alternative - we could discuss the DB Cooper case and forget about Blevins Nation?

??? 
 

 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 23, 2015, 07:05:05 AM
Quote
Third: his description of how the coin bomb works mechanically is very detailed, far-far above what any 13 year old would say (or most could say) especially having spent mere seconds inside that shed .... ?

That's why I always tell him he sounds like Marla. she did the same thing by giving details a child wouldn't catch. I have a very good memory, but I can't recall things with detail, only bits and pieces. I was ran out of rooms dozens of times just as everyone else has growing up, but I haven't a clue why, or where. it appears her detailed view lasting seconds is valid, but he doesn't think people are correct about the description?



Hundreds of thousands of cases could be solved if people could recall detailed events like this.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 23, 2015, 09:28:05 PM
Does anyone have an HD version of Cooper Sketch B with sunglasses that I could use in my book? What I got off the FBi site doesn't blow up too good.

Working on my final proof....

Thanks.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on February 23, 2015, 09:44:59 PM
Try this....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 23, 2015, 11:24:56 PM
Excellente!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 24, 2015, 03:17:25 AM
I received an interesting email from Moriarty today that contained clips from Seattle Times postings on the T-Day weekend in 1971.  One reporter, Ed Wyne (?) interviewed Robert Gregory, aka Mr. Marcelled Hair, Russet Jacket and mid-30's, who told him that he never looked at Cooper until the de-planing was going on. Gregory was up front and looked back at Cooper in the rear of the cabin.  Sounds like a lot of info from just a glance.

Nevertheless, Uncle Bob's relatives told us in Tacoma that he loved to talk about his skyjacking experience.  Funny, too, how the FBI wrote down in their files that Gregory sat next to Cooper in Row 18.  Didn't the FBI agents read the morning papers over their coffee and donuts?

What are we going to do with these civil servants!

Wyne also interview Billy M, who said all he remembers is Tina fixated on That Old Guy.  Poor Billy. I know how he feels.  We gotta take a road trip to Tina and scratch an itch, if you catch my drift...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 24, 2015, 01:55:56 PM
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I received an interesting email from Moriarty today that contained clips from Seattle Times postings on the T-Day weekend in 1971.  One reporter, Ed Wyne (?) interviewed Robert Gregory, aka Mr. Marcelled Hair, Russet Jacket and mid-30's, who told him that he never looked at Cooper until the de-planing was going on. Gregory was up front and looked back at Cooper in the rear of the cabin.  Sounds like a lot of info from just a glance.

Nevertheless, Uncle Bob's relatives told us in Tacoma that he loved to talk about his skyjacking experience.  Funny, too, how the FBI wrote down in their files that Gregory sat next to Cooper in Row 18.  Didn't the FBI agents read the morning papers over their coffee and donuts?

What are we going to do with these civil servants!

Wyne also interview Billy M, who said all he remembers is Tina fixated on That Old Guy.  Poor Billy. I know how he feels.  We gotta take a road trip to Tina and scratch an itch, if you catch my drift...

Any news coverage from the Blevins press releases he advertised? 

Blevins has turned out to be The Inconvenient Truth!  :)  There is hardly nobody he hasn't taken on ... and taken down! ... with his extensive knowledge/expertise not only on the Cooper case but on 500 other cases also, combined with his over-grown investigative bladder backed up by all the experts at Adventire Books, a Division of G&R's Housecleaning Inc. Evidently the folks at G&R decided to 'sweep the Cooper case clean' and rid it of all apostates. Blevins is attacking WSHM again today for their poor interview techniques noting they were weak and failed (vs. his strong and penetrating interview techniques shown in his KC interviews).

I marvel that such talent exists in the world! It proves that the dna spiral is a superior form for encapsulating invincibility and intelligence into one small nuclear bundle that can self propagate and dominate all galaxies, throughout the Universe! Will NASA study his brain at Area-51? Einstein's brain was stolen and cut up and the pieces lost! Hopefully the FBI will secure Blevins' brain for future saving during these uncertain times when there are so many self-proclaiming nations and states all related to Abraham and the Rules of Life, as Mr. Blevins is! ?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 25, 2015, 02:11:41 AM
Did gray tell the truth?

Weber says No@!

skyjack71
Feb 24, 2015, 10:54 PM
Post #57457 of 57457 (20 views)

Geofrey Grey's book! [In reply to]    
 
GEOFFREY GREY LIED A LOT IN HIS BOOK.

YOUR'S TRULY JO WEBER HAS TALKED TO SEVERAL OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS GEOFFREY SUPPOSEDLY INTERVIEWED & THEY CLAIM THEY DID NOT SAY THE THINGS GEOFFREY CLAIMED....THEY HAD NOT READ HIS BOOK!

THERE WAS NO RUSSETT SWEATER!

TINA DID SEE COOPER'S SHOES - SHE WAS SITTING RIGHT BESIDE HIM & YOU COULD SEE HIS SOCKS FROM THE POSITION ONE WITNESS WAS SITTING IN. HE COULDN'T TELL IF IT WAS SOCKS OR LONG JOHNS HANGING DOWN.

WHY WOULD ONE WITNESS BE JEALOUS OF COOPER - HE COULD HAVE BEEN HER UNCLE OR A FRIEND OF THE FAMILY.

NO ONE HAS EVER MENTIONED IF COOPER CROSSED HIS LEGS AT SOME POINT...........................DUH!

IF GRAY HAD ACCESS TO EXTENSIVE FILES - I WOULD BE VERY SURPRISED!
WHY? I HAVE SPOKE TO SOME OF THE INDIVIDUALS - AND THEY DENY THEY EVER MADE SUCH STATEMENTS AS CLAIMED BY GREY...........UnsureUnimpressedUnimpressed

WHY DO BOOK WRITERS HAVE TO ENGARNISH THE TRUTH???????????
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 25, 2015, 03:44:13 AM
Gray got a couple of things wrong, but nothing major.

Geoffrey's biggest "mistake" is believing that the FBI files are infallible, such as the witness report from Robert Gregory. I also don't think Geoff really had a handle on the Cossey-Hayden parachute controversy. In some ways, GG knows a lot about DB Cooper; in other ways, not so much. I think he would learn a lot and his book would have been better if he spent more time with us here and at the DZ.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 25, 2015, 12:55:30 PM
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Gray got a couple of things wrong, but nothing major.

Geoffrey's biggest "mistake" is believing that the FBI files are infallible, such as the witness report from Robert Gregory. I also don't think Geoff really had a handle on the Cossey-Hayden parachute controversy. In some ways, GG knows a lot about DB Cooper; in other ways, not so much. I think he would learn a lot and his book would have been better if he spent more time with us here and at the DZ.

So ... you haven't given us any "Kenny was Cooper newes!" ... after Blevins and the Great Adventure Books of Seattle-London-Moscow-Rio-Capetown sent their Great PDF and his their major new releases to media!

What gives!?  IS THERE A NEWS BLACKOUT? IS ALL ELECTRICITY OFF IN THE STATE OF WASHINGTON?

IF I DONT HEAR SOMETHING SOON IM GOING TO CALL LAW ENFORCEMENT!

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 25, 2015, 04:40:10 PM
The cops are busy, Georger. This just in from the King County Sheriff's Office:

Burglar Breaks In To Church, Eats Chocolate

Burien: On Tuesday morning Burien Police were called to Highline United Methodist Church when the pastor arrived at work to find someone inside.  A thorough search of the large church located no damage and nothing missing, other than about $5 worth of chocolate candy from the kitchen. The confection filcher fled before being apprehended by deputies. 

When Pastor Kathleen O’Connor first opened the door to the church she saw a shadow inside and heard footsteps.  O’Connor knew no one else should be there so she called out, “Hello, who’s there?”  O’Conner hear running footsteps and a banging sound.  She then exited the church, locking the door and calling 911.

Deputies responded and searched the building, but the candy culprit had managed an escape.  It is unknown whether satisfaction of the suspect’s sweet tooth was the only motive.

There is no suspect profile, other than any person that has ever tasted delicious chocolate.

CONTACT:  Sergeant BJ Myers

Media Relations Officer
King County Sheriff's Office
King County Courthouse
Room W-116
516 Third Avenue
Seattle, WA 98104

Date:  February 25, 2015

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on February 25, 2015, 05:08:40 PM
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The cops are busy, Georger. This just in from the King County Sheriff's Office:

Burglar Breaks In To Church, Eats Chocolate

Burien: On Tuesday morning Burien Police were called to Highline United Methodist Church when the pastor arrived at work to find someone inside.  A thorough search of the large church located no damage and nothing missing, other than about $5 worth of chocolate candy from the kitchen. The confection filcher fled before being apprehended by deputies. 

When Pastor Kathleen O’Connor first opened the door to the church she saw a shadow inside and heard footsteps.  O’Connor knew no one else should be there so she called out, “Hello, who’s there?”  O’Conner hear running footsteps and a banging sound.  She then exited the church, locking the door and calling 911.

Deputies responded and searched the building, but the candy culprit had managed an escape.  It is unknown whether satisfaction of the suspect’s sweet tooth was the only motive.

There is no suspect profile, other than any person that has ever tasted delicious chocolate.

CONTACT:  Sergeant BJ Myers

Media Relations Officer
King County Sheriff's Office
King County Courthouse
Room W-116
516 Third Avenue
Seattle, WA 98104

Date:  February 25, 2015

So in other words, you have seen nothing or made no attempt to to see if news media responded to, covered, announced, or otherwise acknowledged the Adventire Books/Blevins press announcements concerning his filing with the FBI in the DB Cooper case... which he has been at for five long years! ? Hmmm. Maybe it's another hoax.

   
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 25, 2015, 09:21:56 PM
Nope, I haven't lifted a finger to verify what the F is the response to RMB's Big News.

Why should I?  I just read your posts, G!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on March 03, 2015, 01:53:30 AM
Bruce Smith says:

It may be time for us to develop a unified witness profile:

1. Tina: DBC was 5'10 - 6', gentleman, mid-40s; sat with skyjacker for 5 hours. Had to look up to see skyjacker.

2. Flo: DBC was 6'-6'1", Latin, deep brown eyes, mid-40s; interacted with skyjacker for less than fifteen minutes.


Hmmm. Tina: Spent hours with the hijacker, in all kinds of positions!

Hmmm. Florence: Spent from 3:07pm to 6:44pm in close proximity and all kinds of positions with Cooper! That is 3h 37m in my calculator! Not the "less than 15 minutes" Smith asserts!

Hmmm. Alice: Same amount of time as Flo! Includes face-to-face time with Cooper.

BTW: Smith's calculation for Tina is way off too!

Bruce, learn how to use a calculator and tell time!
 :-*


Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 03, 2015, 06:39:53 AM
Some wish to over rule the FBI, and basic facts.

"The physical description I provided is a reported fact. No matter how much you would like to change it you simply can't throw it out and replace it with theoretical fact so it fits your suspect. If you do, your investigation is doomed to fail.

Not using any one persons description as the end all but the totality of all the descriptions. Not one person described him much different than the others. Yes some put him in his 30's most put him in his mid 40's to 50's. Some did not see him standing, others did.

Under the "trust no I-witness" philosophy, there is no base of fact to go from, maybe he was actually a she? Where do you stop? there has to be a baseline of fact, you simply cannot conduct an effective investigation if every human being is a suspect.

There is the key difference, "it happened so fast" Not the same in the Cooper case. Mucklow spent almost five hours with Cooper, I think she could have got the base physical indentifiers correct, especially when the others reported almost the same."

They described the situation as calm and Cooper as calm, quiet and polite. In fact, Tina described joking with Cooper towards the end of the flight and Schaffner described him as child like. In other words no trauma that would taint the description.

Agent Larry Carr
Federal Bureau Of Investigations.

almost 20 years of experience

Change the profile?????????
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on March 03, 2015, 08:32:37 AM
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Some wish to over rule the FBI, and basic facts.

"The physical description I provided is a reported fact. No matter how much you would like to change it you simply can't throw it out and replace it with theoretical fact so it fits your suspect. If you do, your investigation is doomed to fail.

Not using any one persons description as the end all but the totality of all the descriptions. Not one person described him much different than the others. Yes some put him in his 30's most put him in his mid 40's to 50's. Some did not see him standing, others did.

Under the "trust no I-witness" philosophy, there is no base of fact to go from, maybe he was actually a she? Where do you stop? there has to be a baseline of fact, you simply cannot conduct an effective investigation if every human being is a suspect.

There is the key difference, "it happened so fast" Not the same in the Cooper case. Mucklow spent almost five hours with Cooper, I think she could have got the base physical indentifiers correct, especially when the others reported almost the same."

They described the situation as calm and Cooper as calm, quiet and polite. In fact, Tina described joking with Cooper towards the end of the flight and Schaffner described him as child like. In other words no trauma that would taint the description.

Agent Larry Carr
Federal Bureau Of Investigations.

almost 20 years of experience

Change the profile?????????

I think Jack Rabbit Ears Weber is out.

I think Kenny the balding dwarf with an imp-like face is out.

All other candidates excepted as long as they aren't less than 4foot 3inches. And dont weigh over 400 lbs.
 
 8)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 03, 2015, 04:05:20 PM
It's the passengers who were "all over the board" that's a simple answer. they didn't really have a reason to recall Cooper, so you will end up with altered descriptions. I believe the FBI based most of it on the Stews. they were with him for long periods of time. other crimes 377, and others refer to is random crimes that are quick, and people didn't get a very good look at the person. this gives a bad description. i'm not saying they got everything right, nobody knows this until he is ID.d. you have to have guidelines though.

5'6 - 6' 3? some wants to go with 5' 8" so you must lower that even more?
140-180 Lbs? He could of had 5 pairs of clothing?
Tanned, olive, bronze, dark, pale complexion? add as needed?
25-65 years Old?
Hair- thin, Thick, bald, parted on left, straight back, parted on the right
Sideburns- below ears- at the center of ears, faint sideburns

Each time you change something to fit a suspect, you must continue to go lower. if you are allowed to do that, then you must make it lower to fit others.

Where does it end as Carr stated?




Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 03, 2015, 06:46:31 PM
Florence left Mr. Cooper at 6 o'clock or so?  I thought the plane landed at 5:30 or so.

More to the point, I thought Florence left Cooper's location after receiving the note and taking it to the cockpit. Then she stayed there for the rest of the skyjacking, taking notes - PAGES and PAGES of them. no?

Georger, can you give us a timeline of Florence's actions?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on March 03, 2015, 11:25:40 PM
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Florence left Mr. Cooper at 6 o'clock or so?  I thought the plane landed at 5:30 or so.

More to the point, I thought Florence left Cooper's location after receiving the note and taking it to the cockpit. Then she stayed there for the rest of the skyjacking, taking notes - PAGES and PAGES of them. no?

Georger, can you give us a timeline of Florence's actions?  Thanks.

She was back and forth between the cockpit and the back. Shuttling around conveying messages while Tina attended Cooper. She had hours of opportunity to look at and watch Cooper. Finally at 6:44 we have this in the Transcripts:

6:44pm   t1  Stews leaving aircraft …
305:      Ops. Other two girls leaving aircraft.
MSFLOPS:   Roger.


Alice, as I understand it, stayed mainly in the first class area holding her station there. But she was observant and attentive with regard to everything going on with 'the guy in the back'. Ready to offer assistance if needed. After Alice and Flo left, Alice realised she had left her purse. She came right back up the stairs and got permission to go back and ask Cooper if she could get her purse. He said 'ok', allowed her to retrieve her purse, and she left a second time. I dont know if Alice had any extended exchanges with Cooper or Tina during that event.

I've always felt Cooper chose Tina to stay because she was the most compliant of the three stews, and the one most likely to help him without posing a problem..... a judgement call he made based on his estimate of the girl's personalities. It was to his advantage to keep the most compliant stew.

 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 03, 2015, 11:31:46 PM
Does this imply he did write more than one note to the cockpit? It's not the old "Miss I have a bomb"
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on March 03, 2015, 11:40:13 PM
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Does this imply he did write more than one note to the cockpit? It's not the old "Miss I have a bomb"

Yes. A series of notes got exchanged, is my understanding. Flo and Tina were the runners. As long as the passengers were on board everyone involved made an effort to keep things quiet with no extended interphone use, so notes became the method of communicating.

His initial note was the only note he personally wrote and it was returned to him. The other notes were dictated by Cooper, or the crew, with Flo or Tina doing the writing.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 04, 2015, 06:44:04 AM
The transcripts make it sound as if its a note from him. you would think they would say "Tina noted back" or something to that affect? "He has written out his request"

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on March 05, 2015, 02:44:39 AM
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The transcripts make it sound as if its a note from him. you would think they would say "Tina noted back" or something to that affect? "He has written out his request"

If the Anderson interview I have is a true statement, there was more back and forth communication with Cooper than the transcripts make explicit. A number of statements in the transcripts also infer communications which the transcripts don't make explicit. Here is one example just after the plane has landed but fueling has not started, the stews are barely off the plane, and this exchange occurs:

P:   We have two of the three (two) stewardesses in the car. We have one remaining
Stewardess with the Individual and he’s not going to let her leave the aircraft
at this time.
GC:   Roger.
P:    Do we want the fuel truck to come up and if they’re ……….
Al:   Yea, there he comes.
GC:   Alright.
GC:   Alpha 3 ground. Can you work on another fuel truck?
Al:   A fourth truck is standing by.
GC:   OK, he only wants an ounce.
P:   I hope that thing is full! If it isn’t you’d better get another truck out here so we
can maintain continuity of filling this aircraft up. HE’S GETTING AWFULLY
ANCY!


"HE’S GETTING AWFULLY ANCY!" implies communications which have not been made explicit.

Another example is: AL:   I just talked to the stews here and if you’ll call back there and tell HIM
everything is under control and is fueling then he will let this other one off too?


Another example: We’re in a rut. Well he seems to want those back steps down. Well we’ve kind of convinced him now we can’t take off with them in the ground position, but he wants them down when we get airborne, fly with it down, and then so he can bail out at any time. I don’t know.

And another: HE SAYS: “GET THE SHOW ON THE ROAD” so we’re ready to crank her up here and we want to go. We’ll  have to pick a flight plan in the air. You get us headed the general direction and we will do the rest in the air. Put us out over the (ocean) or something along the coast. Just something where we can maneuver and get this set up and get the Individual  off our backs. He’s very upset and Tina says he means it now to go or …(unintel)…

Anderson made it very clear there was more back-and-forth than the Transcripts make explicit.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 05, 2015, 02:51:26 AM
Now we're getting the nitty-gritty.  Thanks, G.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Olemisscub on March 05, 2015, 12:11:50 PM
Tina is so frustrating. It's too bad she doesn't have grown children who could maybe talk some sense into her. She was the best witness to one of the greatest mysteries of American history. I'm sorry if she was traumatized by it and my years of experience in dealing with victims of crime have made me sympathetic, but at a certain point you owe it to posterity to talk.

Although in a warped way we owe a large part of our fascination with this case due to Tina not speaking. Think of the thousands of man hours and thousands of pages that people have written in articles, forums, and books that wouldn't exist if Tina were speaking. If she is as traumatized as she appears to be, then there is zero doubt that Cooper's face is burned into her brain. Therefore, Tina could literally take two minutes and look at the pics of our favorite suspects and go "No...nope...no...not him...nope...not him" and massive chunks of this hobby would disappear. The suspect thread would be 10 pages long instead of 52!

Still, her silence is easily the most frustrating thing about this case. She is a living Rosetta Stone for this whole case.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on March 05, 2015, 12:32:01 PM
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Tina is so frustrating. It's too bad she doesn't have grown children who could maybe talk some sense into her. She was the best witness to one of the greatest mysteries of American history. I'm sorry if she was traumatized by it and my years of experience in dealing with victims of crime have made me sympathetic, but at a certain point you owe it to posterity to talk.

Although in a warped way we owe a large part of our fascination with this case due to Tina not speaking. Think of the thousands of man hours and thousands of pages that people have written in articles, forums, and books that wouldn't exist if Tina were speaking. If she is as traumatized as she appears to be, then there is zero doubt that Cooper's face is burned into her brain. Therefore, Tina could literally take two minutes and look at the pics of our favorite suspects and go "No...nope...no...not him...nope...not him" and massive chunks of this hobby would disappear. The suspect thread would be 10 pages long instead of 52!

Still, her silence is easily the most frustrating thing about this case. She is a living Rosetta Stone for this whole case.

I sent a letter to Tina's place of employment a few months back. It was the same time I sent a letter to Bill Mitchell. I also sent a letter to Florence. I was contacted by Mitchell. However, I did not hear back from the stews. After watching the Cooper episode on Unsolved Mysteries, I hoped Florence would have responded to my letter. I did find Florence's son, as well as Tina's Sister and Brother-in-Law, but did not try to contact either party.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Olemisscub on March 05, 2015, 12:43:17 PM
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I sent a letter to Tina's place of employment a few months back. It was the same time I sent a letter to Bill Mitchell. I also sent a letter to Florence. I was contacted by Mitchell. However, I did not hear back from the stews. After watching the Cooper episode on Unsolved Mysteries, I hoped Florence would have responded to my letter. I did find Florence's son, as well as Tina's Sister and Brother-in-Law, but did not try to contact either party.

See, this just grinds my gears and reeks of a serious problem with Tina and now Flo. It's selfishness in a way. You are a child trying to find information about your missing father. It would probably mean everything in the world to you if Tina spent just three minutes and responded to you and merely said "No, after looking at the pictures, DB was absolutely not your father. Best of luck finding your dad." Yet she won't even do something so simple. That really bugs me.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on March 05, 2015, 12:53:26 PM
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I sent a letter to Tina's place of employment a few months back. It was the same time I sent a letter to Bill Mitchell. I also sent a letter to Florence. I was contacted by Mitchell. However, I did not hear back from the stews. After watching the Cooper episode on Unsolved Mysteries, I hoped Florence would have responded to my letter. I did find Florence's son, as well as Tina's Sister and Brother-in-Law, but did not try to contact either party.

See, this just grinds my gears and reeks of a serious problem with Tina and now Flo. It's selfishness in a way. You are a child trying to find information about your missing father. It would probably mean everything in the world to you if Tina spent just three minutes and responded to you and merely said "No, after looking at the pictures, DB was absolutely not your father. Best of luck finding your dad." Yet she won't even do something so simple. That really bugs me.

I do not want this topic to drift into the "Melvin Wilson" forum. So last word on this. Mitchell could not say one way or the other, but he did state that the sketch did not represent what he remembered from that night. He thought the sketches of Cooper made the hi-jacker's face too thin. He said the facial features, the wider face, cheeks and the gobble neck, on my father's pictures and home videos are facial features he remembers from that night. He also stated that Weber was not Cooper. He said he and his friends would have laughed if Cooper had "Dumbo" ears.

Oh....and welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on March 05, 2015, 01:03:57 PM
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I sent a letter to Tina's place of employment a few months back. It was the same time I sent a letter to Bill Mitchell. I also sent a letter to Florence. I was contacted by Mitchell. However, I did not hear back from the stews. After watching the Cooper episode on Unsolved Mysteries, I hoped Florence would have responded to my letter. I did find Florence's son, as well as Tina's Sister and Brother-in-Law, but did not try to contact either party.

See, this just grinds my gears and reeks of a serious problem with Tina and now Flo. It's selfishness in a way. You are a child trying to find information about your missing father. It would probably mean everything in the world to you if Tina spent just three minutes and responded to you and merely said "No, after looking at the pictures, DB was absolutely not your father. Best of luck finding your dad." Yet she won't even do something so simple. That really bugs me.

I do not want this topic to drift into the "Melvin Wilson" forum. So last word on this. Mitchell could not say one way or the other, but he did state that the sketch did not represent what he remembered from that night. He thought the sketches of Cooper made the hi-jacker's face too thin. He said the facial features, the wider face, cheeks and the gobble neck, on my father's pictures and home videos are facial features he remembers from that night. He also stated that Weber was not Cooper. He said he and his friends would have laughed if Cooper had "Dumbo" ears.

Oh....and welcome to the forum.
Photos of your dad and the adjusted Bureau sketch ...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Olemisscub on March 05, 2015, 01:08:43 PM
What is this adjusted Bureau sketch? I must be having a brain fart. When and why did that come about?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 05, 2015, 04:16:54 PM
Vicki, you bring up Melvin anytime you wish. same goes for Lepsy, they are both considered suspects.....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Olemisscub on March 05, 2015, 04:47:33 PM
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Vicki, you bring up Melvin anytime you wish. same goes for Lepsy, they are both considered suspects.....

Yeah, I've grown to really like Melvin as a suspect. Career criminal, had served in the military, tall, had a "turkey neck" but wasn't a fat man, obviously someone in his 40's to 50's, had the ability to be a smooth talker, the 200k connection, had a olive skin tone, had the hair, wasn't an experienced skydiver, etc.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on March 05, 2015, 05:03:47 PM
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Vicki, you bring up Melvin anytime you wish. same goes for Lepsy, they are both considered suspects.....

Yeah, I've grown to really like Melvin as a suspect. Career criminal, had served in the military, tall, had a "turkey neck" but wasn't a fat man, obviously someone in his 40's to 50's, had the ability to be a smooth talker, the 200k connection, had a olive skin tone, had the hair, wasn't an experienced skydiver, etc.

Recently, we asked Tom Kaye a few questions about the forensic evidence on the tie. Unfortunately, my questions about the tie were not answered. Melvin was a counterfeiter and he carved his own metal plates for an off-set press. I wanted to know if the items found on the tie would be found in the daily operations of a print shop. Mel's shop was located in St. Paul and possible located over a statuary. The person who owned the statuary was arrested with counterfeit bills in 1971 at the same time-frame my father was arrested. (Source: MN History Museum and newspaper articles from the 1971 Minneapolis Star, Minneapolis Tribune ad the St. Paul Pioneer Press).
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 05, 2015, 05:10:59 PM
Quote
Recently, we asked Tom Kaye a few questions about the forensic evidence on the tie. Unfortunately, my questions about the tie were not answered.

Tom will be coming back to the thread, he's a little busy these days. I'll email him explaining some people still have questions.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 17, 2015, 09:58:36 PM
Bruce, the book should also be placed here. "Evidence About The Case" Congrats by the way!!!

BIG NEWS

My book, DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking, is now available at Amazon, in a Kindle version, which is an e-book.  The text reads very easily on a commuter screen, but is designed for tablets and such, too.

I am so excited!

My Amazon site is also set up for discussions, ala blogging, so you can interact with a broader audience than here or the DZ.  $6.99 gets you in the game in the USA, and in about 90 days I'll be seeing about $4. But if you want to buy it in Russia, it's gonna cost you $89. (?)  Italy is eleven Euros.  Hmmmmm....

Also, if anyone who like to post a review at Amazon, I'd be most appreciative.

http://www.amazon.com/DB-Cooper-FBI-Americas-Skyjacking-ebook/dp/B00UULLCOW/ref=sr_1_1_twi_1_kin?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1426642459&sr=1-1&keywords=DB+Cooper+and+the+FBI

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Q3GRW4Z1L._AA278_PIkin4,BottomRight,-46,22_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on March 17, 2015, 11:08:47 PM
Ok, Bruce...I just bought a copy of your book.  It looks good!

Don't spend that $4 all in one place!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on March 17, 2015, 11:24:42 PM
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What is this adjusted Bureau sketch? I must be having a brain fart. When and why did that come about?
I missed this comment the first time around. I think the sketch is on the FBI's Cooper website. I know I have seen it before, but I thought it was one of the first sketches made.

Page #3 on this link http://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper%20/D-B-Cooper-Part-1-of-7/view
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 17, 2015, 11:55:59 PM
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Ok, Bruce...I just bought a copy of your book.  It looks good!

Don't spend that $4 all in one place!

I LOVE YOU !!!!!!!!

BTW: I think you're first!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on March 18, 2015, 03:29:18 PM
Just wanted to sat congrats on the Book, Bruce. I'm almost done with it, stayed up most of the night reading...

I'll definitely give it a positive review on Amazon when I done.


Just one thing...

Gibe/Jibe/Jive (http://grammarist.com/usage/gibe-jibe-jive/)
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on March 18, 2015, 04:41:14 PM
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Just wanted to sat congrats on the Book, Bruce. I'm almost done with it, stayed up most of the night reading...

I'll definitely give it a positive review on Amazon when I done.


Just one thing...

Gibe/Jibe/Jive (http://grammarist.com/usage/gibe-jibe-jive/)

could you give a url to the reviews ? 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 18, 2015, 05:35:21 PM
The reviews will be seen at the bottom of the page where the book is sold. it will also have an area under the title of the book on the same page...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on March 18, 2015, 10:08:22 PM
Also Bruce, some of us are still old-fashioned tree-killers who would like a real book...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 19, 2015, 02:19:17 AM
LOTS of people want a paper book, and me, too.  Here's the deal:

The Kindle book was affordable - 300 bucks or so for the editor, Susan Leonard, who is a total sweetie and takes payments until the 2nd Coming of Jesus.  Ross, aka Nimi Wrecks, is another one of her clients; btw he recommended Susan, whose publishing/editing company is named Rose Island Publishing.

She got my Word doc manuscript into proper format for the Amazon Kindle program, and since half the books read in the USA are Kindle e-books, it seemed like the way to get my tootsies into the waters.

So, now I'm on the program, and lots of other programs spill out from there, such as getting into their "print-on-demand" paper editions, marketing strategies, community forums, speaking tours, etc.  Lots of little steps as I see it.

Shut is gonna help me make a promotional video. Nimi Wrecks is gonna help me with libraries and historical societies, and make some more moolah there.

It's all good.  I've been at this since 2008, so a few more months (late summer) and we should have the books available for ya.  One thing that I need to do for that to happen is purchase ISBN numbers for the paper editions, and it's a rigged game that is costly. As I understand the situation, the gov't has privatized the ISBN distribution system, which are identification numbers that every book has to have except Kindle e-books, and the minimum that the privy guys are charging in the USA is currently $150. Or come up with $250 for five ISBNs, since I have a few other books ready to go ( a novel, a book of short stories, and half of a book on the New Physics).

SO, I'm looking at the Big Picture, if you catch my drift....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 19, 2015, 02:22:23 AM
To read the reviews of DB Cooper and the FBI:

http://www.amazon.com/DB-Cooper-FBI-Americas-Skyjacking-ebook/dp/B00UULLCOW/ref=sr_1_1_twi_1_kin?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1426642459&sr=1-1&keywords=DB+Cooper+and+the+FBI

As Shutter says, scroll to the bottom of the page. Pat Forman has already left one review. Five stars, too!!!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 30, 2015, 06:57:42 PM
Here is a podcast with a skydiver by the name of David Robinson who discusses the possibilities of Cooper's jump....


http://raasnio.com/GenerationWhyPodcast/d-b-cooper-analysis/
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 30, 2015, 08:03:16 PM
This is the first part of the podcast....

http://raasnio.com/GenerationWhyPodcast/d-b-cooper/#comments
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on March 30, 2015, 11:55:51 PM
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Here is a podcast with a skydiver by the name of David Robinson who discusses the possibilities of Cooper's jump....


http://raasnio.com/GenerationWhyPodcast/d-b-cooper-analysis/

good program...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 31, 2015, 12:09:18 AM
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Here is a podcast with a skydiver by the name of David Robinson who discusses the possibilities of Cooper's jump....


http://raasnio.com/GenerationWhyPodcast/d-b-cooper-analysis/

good program...

I thought so too. he kinda has the same thoughts Robert99 has been stating?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 31, 2015, 04:07:04 AM
I disagree with Robertson's analysis. His information is quite outdated.  DBC should have used the Paracommander? C'mon....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on April 01, 2015, 03:10:53 AM
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I disagree with Robertson's analysis. His information is quite outdated.  DBC should have used the Paracommander? C'mon....

why is his info outdated?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 01, 2015, 04:07:13 AM
Their assumptions and perspectives are from another era, one that is pre-August 2011 and the work that Geoffrey and I have presented.

Further, the audio discussion is between two people who imagine DB Cooper to be like them, and since they view the jump as very risky they conclude that Cooper was at great risk. They ignore how other skyjackers made the jump successfully and learn no lessons from them - McCoy, Heady, McNally, LaPoint, etc.

They assume the whole Cossey/Carr scenario completely. NB-8, Paracommander, and Cooper using the dummy chute. Temps too cold and frozen fingers leading to disaster, ignoring what we know now about wind dynamics and temps on the stairs, and not assuming additional gear, or considering pharmaceutical and psychological enhancements and training. They never once talked about special forces and covert commandos, and how they prepare themselves for arduous missions.

They constantly referred to DB Cooper as a "skydiver."  He was much more. They ignored all the other information about Cooper, such as his knowledge of top secret information on the 727.

Bottom Line: WhY do you ask why their information is outdated?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on April 01, 2015, 05:36:33 AM
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Their assumptions and perspectives are from another era, one that is pre-August 2011 and the work that Geoffrey and I have presented.

Further, the audio discussion is between two people who imagine DB Cooper to be like them, and since they view the jump as very risky they conclude that Cooper was at great risk. They ignore how other skyjackers made the jump successfully and learn no lessons from them - McCoy, Heady, McNally, LaPoint, etc.

They assume the whole Cossey/Carr scenario completely. NB-8, Paracommander, and Cooper using the dummy chute. Temps too cold and frozen fingers leading to disaster, ignoring what we know now about wind dynamics and temps on the stairs, and not assuming additional gear, or considering pharmaceutical and psychological enhancements and training. They never once talked about special forces and covert commandos, and how they prepare themselves for arduous missions.

They constantly referred to DB Cooper as a "skydiver."  He was much more. They ignored all the other information about Cooper, such as his knowledge of top secret information on the 727.

Bottom Line: WhY do you ask why their information is outdated?

Because they didn't strike me as assuming all of the things you assume, including fairies and lightening bolts from Zeus, such as his knowledge of top secret information on the 727 and Feynman symmetry in 13 dimensions in the Maldum Fornax ... and other meaningless gibberish.

There is no proof Cooper had top secret information on the 727 and just because there are 137 roads and allies and streets and paths in a kingdom does mean they all lead to Rome! Some of those roads and streets to go to Aunt Mabel! Aunty Mabel may never have been to Rome her entire life!

 :-\
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 01, 2015, 09:39:34 AM
Knowing others have succeeded in jumping is a good thing, but like medication, it can work for one, and kill the other.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 01, 2015, 12:50:48 PM
Finally, someone posted "The Skyjacker Who Got Away" I've never had the chance to see this one. perhaps others missed it as well?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSPkIciL5DY



Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on April 01, 2015, 04:52:04 PM
It's interesting, but if I remember correctly, points to KC at the end as a viable suspect. I will re watch.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 01, 2015, 05:10:06 PM
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It's interesting, but if I remember correctly, points to KC at the end as a viable suspect. I will re watch.


Correct, they really beef it up making it look like he bought "a big house, for cash" old Skippy is on it too....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: 377 on April 01, 2015, 05:58:25 PM
Greetings from 377: Dropzone DB Cooper Forum refugee. I think you'll soon be seeing others.

377
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 01, 2015, 06:03:02 PM
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Greetings from 377: Dropzone DB Cooper Forum refugee. I think you'll soon be seeing others.

377


Welcome back 377, pull up a chair, and grab a beverage, and enjoy the fresh air provided here.

Currently, we are pretty heavy into the money find, and the flight path just to bring you up to speed.....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 01, 2015, 09:26:12 PM
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It's interesting, but if I remember correctly, points to KC at the end as a viable suspect. I will re watch.


Correct, they really beef it up making it look like he bought "a big house, for cash" old Skippy is on it too....


Me, too!  No chiron identification, though.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on April 01, 2015, 11:48:47 PM
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Greetings from 377: Dropzone DB Cooper Forum refugee. I think you'll soon be seeing others.

377

Welcomen! dah dit dah dit.

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on April 01, 2015, 11:50:42 PM
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Knowing others have succeeded in jumping is a good thing, but like medication, it can work for one, and kill the other.

Thats not a bad methaphor.  That could be exactly right. 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: 377 on April 03, 2015, 12:41:12 PM
About that non alloyed Tie-Tanium...  I still think its a very intriguing clue and potentially a powerful one since very few suspects will have been exposed to it.

Turns out non alloyed titanium has been used in aircraft manufacturing for a long time. The Douglas DC-7, a 1950s 4 engine propliner, used non alloyed titanium for its engine firewalls resulting in a substantial weight savings. Souce: Douglas DC 6 and DC 7, book by Harry Gann.

I don't post a lot but it doesn't mean I'm dormant. I have read a lot about rubber band degradation, fresh water boring insects, uses of non alloyed titanium, dredges, MAC SOG parachute ops, smoke jumpers, 727 airdrop mods and ops etc.  And I spend a lot of time looking at my Cooper twenty trying to figure out how the hell it ended up at Tena Bar. \

Will be dusting off the winter cobwebs and getting back to jumping again in May. I formerly jumped year round, even jumped though hail once shredding my face in the process. Then one day, as maturity set in, I asked myself: "is it really fun freezing up here in an unheated plane with an open door, waiting to jump into a muddy windy DZ?" The answer had been yes for many years but as I cruised into my 50's I changed my view. Now I am a fair weather moderate winds wuss. I think my moderate approach has helped me avoid getting up close and personal with titanium, the kind they use for orthopedic surgery implants.

377

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 03, 2015, 04:51:29 PM
First chuckle of the day. Thanks, 3!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 03, 2015, 11:14:07 PM
Quote
About that non alloyed Tie-Tanium...  I still think its a very intriguing clue and potentially a powerful one since very few suspects will have been exposed to it.


377, did you get a chance to read what Tom Kaye posted here recently?
Quote
Seems we were wrong about one huge thing.  As it turns out Boeing did use a lot of pure Ti in the SST. We ruled Boeing out early because we thought it was all alloyed. We are now talking with a Boeing Ti engineer that has been working there since  the 80's. That is the new best area for research.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on April 04, 2015, 09:33:49 AM
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About that non alloyed Tie-Tanium...  I still think its a very intriguing clue and potentially a powerful one since very few suspects will have been exposed to it.

Turns out non alloyed titanium has been used in aircraft manufacturing for a long time. The Douglas DC-7, a 1950s 4 engine propliner, used non alloyed titanium for its engine firewalls resulting in a substantial weight savings. Souce: Douglas DC 6 and DC 7, book by Harry Gann.

 I think my moderate approach has helped me avoid getting up close and personal with titanium, the kind they use for orthopedic surgery implants.

A quick google search shows that the use of tie-tanium was much more widespread in the early 1970s, than we’ve previously believed.  Citizen made a titanium watch (LINK (http://sweep-hand.org/2013/12/22/this-weeks-featured-watch-55-the-x8-titanium-chronometer/)) in 1970, so could the Cooper suspect have worked at the watch factory, or repaired watches, or simply just replaced the battery in a titanium watch?  Maybe the person the Cooper suspect stole the tie from could have been any of those things.

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 04, 2015, 10:09:03 AM
I'll look on the CS site again, but I believe the "Tanium" appeared to be a piece that was machined. you see a little curl in the metal similar to when you drill into metal. I deal with two types of metal in my profession. one is aluminum, and the second is steel. if you don't clean the aluminum prior to completing the product, it has metal dust on it. steel needs to be handled with gloves. it will leave little metal splinters in your hands that are hard to get out. I don't know the case with Tie-tanium. (good way of terming this by the way)

My guess would be this particle must of came from the manufacturing end VS someone putting together a device with a tie-tanium part in it. the pieces are cleaned prior to shipping the item in most cases. I'm guessing parts like camera shutters would be punched out on a press. this wouldn't leave any drilled, or curled objects laying around that could be transferred to clothing.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on April 05, 2015, 02:22:30 AM
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I'll look on the CS site again, but I believe the "Tanium" appeared to be a piece that was machined. you see a little curl in the metal similar to when you drill into metal. I deal with two types of metal in my profession. one is aluminum, and the second is steel. if you don't clean the aluminum prior to completing the product, it has metal dust on it. steel needs to be handled with gloves. it will leave little metal splinters in your hands that are hard to get out. I don't know the case with Tie-tanium. (good way of terming this by the way)

My guess would be this particle must of came from the manufacturing end VS someone putting together a device with a tie-tanium part in it. the pieces are cleaned prior to shipping the item in most cases. I'm guessing parts like camera shutters would be punched out on a press. this wouldn't leave any drilled, or curled objects laying around that could be transferred to clothing.

Yes, that curled piece looks like a drilling or lathe shaving ... you can even get very tiny curled pieces like this during a polishing process if the piece is spinning and the abrasive is carborundum or similar ... 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on April 05, 2015, 09:30:16 AM
Sutter:   Tom Kaye said    "Seems we were wrong about one huge thing.  As it turns out Boeing did use a lot of pure Ti in the SST. We ruled Boeing out early because we thought it was all alloyed. We are now talking with a Boeing Ti engineer that has been working there since  the 80's. That is the new best area for research."

This is what I tried to tell Tom a couple of years ago but he did not seem interested and that I was an Engineer at Boeing having started in 1961 and worked in the same building (9-101 bldg) that the Materials and Processing Lab was in on the 1st floor. I told Tom the M&P Lab was using pure Ti to flame spray the leading edges of the SST to give the edges higher temp and abrasion characteristics. Having both types of Ti in the scrap bins outside the Lab gave suspect Sheridan Peterson a lot of chances to get all the samples found on the DB tie as he had his office directly above the Lab in the same building and his tie could have brushed over the scrap as he looked through the interesting stuff in the tub skids as he passed by at least 4 times a day. The DB tie was a pointer to where he worked.
Bob Sailshaw

Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 05, 2015, 09:44:07 AM
Thanks sailshaw, did the Boeing manufacturing plants make, or have a lot of machined work for all the employee's to have access to, or was some of the machinery only used by certain individuals?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on April 06, 2015, 10:17:15 AM
Sutter:   you say  "Thanks sailshaw, did the Boeing manufacturing plants make, or have a lot of machined work for all the employee's to have access to, or was some of the machinery only used by certain individuals?"
The M&P Lab had all the things that were on DB's tie in their scrap tub skids including the curly-cue drilling scrap. They did welding Ti and machining Ti and the scraps all went into the tub skids
Bob Sailshaw
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 06, 2015, 10:22:08 AM
Was the machinery used by all employee's, or were certain people on the machines?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: smokin99 on April 06, 2015, 11:30:47 PM
I don't have time to go into this tonight, and I might prove myself wrong after I finish my document diving, but I'll put this out there for food for thought.
I have doubts that pure titanium was as rare in 1971 as has been portrayed, and I think that it might have been used in products and/or in research in industries other than those mentioned by CS website.

Like I said, I may very well be reading some things wrong, and will readily accept it if I am. I'd rather be accurate than right. But I'm wondering if this might be one more CS conclusion that is being repeated throughout the Cooper community as fact, when, maybe we should be looking at their conclusions and theories with a healthy dose of "prove it" scepticism, just as we do any other conclusions and theories put forth.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 07, 2015, 12:40:33 AM
A Russian sub was built in 1963. the hull was titanium, but it was Ti alloy. the sub still holds the underwater speed record. Her unofficial maximum speed, reached 30 March 1971, is 44.85 kn (51.61 mph; 83.06 km/h).

Jewelry was also, and still is made with titanium, but I'm not sure if it's alloy again...

ADDED: I can't copy/paste from this site, but they speak about pure ti in jewelry. see "titanium is very hard" section..

http://www.titaniumkay.com/titanium-myths.aspx
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on April 07, 2015, 09:30:02 AM
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I don't have time to go into this tonight, and I might prove myself wrong after I finish my document diving, but I'll put this out there for food for thought.
I have doubts that pure titanium was as rare in 1971 as has been portrayed, and I think that it might have been used in products and/or in research in industries other than those mentioned by CS website.

Like I said, I may very well be reading some things wrong, and will readily accept it if I am. I'd rather be accurate than right. But I'm wondering if this might be one more CS conclusion that is being repeated throughout the Cooper community as fact, when, maybe we should be looking at their conclusions and theories with a healthy dose of "prove it" scepticism, just as we do any other conclusions and theories put forth.
I am a skeptic of the the Citizen Sleuth's interpretations and conclusions concerning the work they have done on this case.  I do believe that the CS team gave it their best shot, and put a lot of effort into a case that had grown cold, which is admirable.  I like the idea of using the latest technology to analyze evidence in this case, but the interpretation of the results of the testing is where things got derailed, in my opinion.

I believe the people on the Citizen Sleuths team are brilliant.  I would hate to compare my IQ test scores with any of them.   But...we've all met very smart and highly educated people who can barely function socially or have an abundance of "book smarts", but nil "street smarts".  I need to look no further than the "Cooper's body on a freighter propeller" comment to see we have serious problems here.

After looking at the CS website and seeing the documentary that Shutter just posted, I still can't get a bead on what the CS's are saying about the Tena (Tina, Tuna, whatever) Bar money find.  ???  "The money was there before the dredging", "The money arrived within a year of it being discovered because of the rubber bands", WTF? 

As for the Tie-tanium, I think we can all agree the statements made on the CS website were pre-Google and we now understand the use of titanium  is much more widespread in the early 1970s than we've been led to believe.

As for the phantom missing, comic book reading, Hispanic, French Canadian, just laid off aerospace engineer, with no accent...well?  Where is he?  That's a fairly precise description of someone, don't you think?  If that person existed, don't you think he would have been located by now?

I could go on maligning the CS's, but what good would that do?  I think they did a decent job, and though I may disagree with their interpretation of things, I believe they created renewed interest in a case that had grown as cold as a block of ice.  That being said, we must ask ourselves,  what have their interpretations done to move the case forward?  Have their interpretations produced any results?  Has their description of a suspect produced any suspects at all?  Or, has their incorrect interpretation of the results of their work muddied the water, making the case less "solvable" than before?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 07, 2015, 12:04:54 PM
Which documentary?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on April 07, 2015, 12:42:41 PM
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Which documentary?
"The Skyjacker who got Away" at the 30:03 mark.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 07, 2015, 01:43:42 PM
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Which documentary?
"The Skyjacker who got Away" at the 30:03 mark.


I had to replace the video. the one that was originally there was taken down. you must of seen it just before they zapped it.

I have trouble following the statement made. the spoil appears to be about 75 yards from it's southern most tip to where the money was found. what we need is a 1975 photo. early 1975.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 07, 2015, 01:45:47 PM
If the money came down the river, and wasn't dredged up, how did it got on the shore?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on April 07, 2015, 01:56:46 PM
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Which documentary?
"The Skyjacker who got Away" at the 30:03 mark.
Updated Nat Geo Skyjacker link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtWztVPR6YU)

I had to replace the video. the one that was originally there was taken down. you must of seen it just before they zapped it.

I have trouble following the statement made. the spoil appears to be about 75 yards from it's southern most tip to where the money was found. what we need is a 1975 photo. early 1975.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 07, 2015, 02:00:29 PM
?????
I just replaced the bad link on it prior to commenting.....
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on April 07, 2015, 04:34:09 PM
Have to admit, when I first heard Kaye present the prop-snag hypothesis, I was incredulous. But...

Let's realize what Kaye's CS project accomplished:

1) Effectively disproved the Washougal Washdown theory. Kaye showed the Washougal was a poor transportation system for bundles of money, and bundles of money did not stay together for the trip. While it's still possible the entire bag was carried down the Washougal by floodwaters (as Kaye didn't test this), Kaye's other findings (flight path analysis) effectively end this theory.

2) The tie was likely Cooper's, and while few doubt this, Kaye further tied the tie to Cooper:

Quote
All of the stains examined showed elemental signatures of particles from safety matches similar to those shown in Figure 4. The stains, and in fact the Fig. 3 Comparison tie from the same period that had not been in storage for 40 years. Fewer particles are present on this tie even given its age. Fig. 3 Comparison tie from the same period that had not been in storage for 40 years. Fewer particles are present on this tie even given its age. vast majority of particles examined, had elemental compositions that were equivalent to match heads. This indicates that the owner of the tie was a smoker who did not typically use a lighter. Additionally, the type of match can be localized to paper book matches and not wood matches due to the lack of chlorine in wood matches [3]. These findings are completely consistent with the descriptions of D.B. Cooper as a chain smoker [4] that requested back the book of matches that the flight attendant, Tina Mucklow, used to light his cigarettes [5].

Thus, because of Kaye, we know the tie was worn frequently by a smoker who used book matches, not wood matches. This matches Cooper's description as a smoker who used book matches. While not definitive, it is a strong indication that the tie was not a thrift-store purchase or a stolen item.

3) Even if we find out unalloyed titanium was more common than Tom thought, the tie analysis is still invaluable as it shows the owner of the tie worked somewhere that machined unalloyed titanium, wearing a tie everyday. Even if this isn't helpful information in finding a suspect, it's damn helpful in eliminating suspects in a field with dozens of confessed Cooperites.

4) Kaye's analysis of the Tina Bar find is also invaluable. Even if Kaye is wrong about the money arriving before the '74 dredging, he conclusively proved Palmer was misled in his analysis as well. The clay layer was not caused by a dredge.

5) Kaye found no reasonable evidence to contradict the flight path or timing of the jump. Again, this does not conclusively prove the FBI flight path as correct, it does put the burden of proof on those who would adjust the jump's timing or flight path.

Kaye did not solve the Cooper case, but he did open up avenues of investigation. We now know the money had to stay in the canvas bag for a long period of time if there's any hope of it moving to Tina bar from farther up the Columbia. We can test how the Washougal and Columbia move a bag of money. We can test how the rubber bands will age inside the bag.

We can look at Cooper suspects and find out which ones match the particles found on the tie.

It's progress!
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 07, 2015, 04:45:55 PM
Good points, perhaps sometimes we are quick to judge. I for one can understand the ups, and downs of testing. I've had several false conclusions with tracing the flight path, and certainly don't want to steer someone in the wrong direction. I do get confused as to some of the things Kaye states. the one NMI pointed out in the recent documentary is one of them.
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on April 08, 2015, 12:50:59 AM
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Have to admit, when I first heard Kaye present the prop-snag hypothesis, I was incredulous. But...

Let's realize what Kaye's CS project accomplished:

1) Effectively disproved the Washougal Washdown theory. Kaye showed the Washougal was a poor transportation system for bundles of money, and bundles of money did not stay together for the trip. While it's still possible the entire bag was carried down the Washougal by floodwaters (as Kaye didn't test this), Kaye's other findings (flight path analysis) effectively end this theory.

2) The tie was likely Cooper's, and while few doubt this, Kaye further tied the tie to Cooper:

Quote
All of the stains examined showed elemental signatures of particles from safety matches similar to those shown in Figure 4. The stains, and in fact the Fig. 3 Comparison tie from the same period that had not been in storage for 40 years. Fewer particles are present on this tie even given its age. Fig. 3 Comparison tie from the same period that had not been in storage for 40 years. Fewer particles are present on this tie even given its age. vast majority of particles examined, had elemental compositions that were equivalent to match heads. This indicates that the owner of the tie was a smoker who did not typically use a lighter. Additionally, the type of match can be localized to paper book matches and not wood matches due to the lack of chlorine in wood matches [3]. These findings are completely consistent with the descriptions of D.B. Cooper as a chain smoker [4] that requested back the book of matches that the flight attendant, Tina Mucklow, used to light his cigarettes [5].

Thus, because of Kaye, we know the tie was worn frequently by a smoker who used book matches, not wood matches. This matches Cooper's description as a smoker who used book matches. While not definitive, it is a strong indication that the tie was not a thrift-store purchase or a stolen item.

3) Even if we find out unalloyed titanium was more common than Tom thought, the tie analysis is still invaluable as it shows the owner of the tie worked somewhere that machined unalloyed titanium, wearing a tie everyday. Even if this isn't helpful information in finding a suspect, it's damn helpful in eliminating suspects in a field with dozens of confessed Cooperites.

4) Kaye's analysis of the Tina Bar find is also invaluable. Even if Kaye is wrong about the money arriving before the '74 dredging, he conclusively proved Palmer was misled in his analysis as well. The clay layer was not caused by a dredge.

5) Kaye found no reasonable evidence to contradict the flight path or timing of the jump. Again, this does not conclusively prove the FBI flight path as correct, it does put the burden of proof on those who would adjust the jump's timing or flight path.

Kaye did not solve the Cooper case, but he did open up avenues of investigation. We now know the money had to stay in the canvas bag for a long period of time if there's any hope of it moving to Tina bar from farther up the Columbia. We can test how the Washougal and Columbia move a bag of money. We can test how the rubber bands will age inside the bag.

We can look at Cooper suspects and find out which ones match the particles found on the tie.

It's progress!

I agree with most of the above -

I am totally mystified by how the expert Palmer could have misread the strata vs. Tom who says he knows the correct reading. There are people who claim Palmer he didn't screw up and it is Tom who is wrong!. This should be an elementary matter - it now becomes very complex and fraught with drama!

The Palmer chart is simple and clear. On Palmer's chart there is a layer of cross-bedded sand at level B. Just below the upper active layer 'A' and just above Palmer's clay-lump layer 'C' he says was the dredging layer.

Tom took a photo of T_Bar strata - its on his web page. A cross-bedded layer is clearly visible and marked. The clay layer Tom seems to be talking about I also marked.

Is the cross bedded layer in Tom's photo the same as layer B in Palmer chart? Is the clay layer in Tom's photo the same as Palmer layer D?

And, will I have to live 697 years of age before all of this is cleared up?  :)
 
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on April 08, 2015, 01:45:28 AM
Kaye's analysis seems more reasonable to me, prima facie. I wish I knew more about the Palmer report though.

To me, Palmer's conclusions suffer from a severe case of confirmation bias. There was a set conclusion, pushed by the FBI agents working the case. The evidence was fit into their narrative, and the result was the now widely discredited Washougal Washdown theory and the Palmer Report. Nothing contradicted the FBI narrative of the find, which affirms said confirmation bias.

And no, I'm sure we'll have this all settled by 2267...
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 08, 2015, 06:49:12 PM
Where exactly did the Fazio's report starting the removal stage of the spoils. 50 yards out from where, the center? a pile that large needs space to maneuver around. did each spoil remain on the beach, or did they remove some of it? it appears to only be about 80 yards from the northern tip of the north spoil to the money location. didn't Palmer state they spoil material was gone, if so, and it wasn't that far down, then why is he stating this?

Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
Post by: georger on April 09, 2015, 12:07:24 AM
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Where exactly did the Fazio's report starting the removal stage of the spoils. 50 yards out from where, the center? a pile that large needs space to maneuver around. did each spoil remain on the beach, or did they remove some of it? it appears to only be about 80 yards from the northern tip of the north spoil to the money location. didn't Palmer state they spoil material was gone, if so, and it wasn't that far down, then why is he stating this?

Am I missing something?

Im confused - not sure where you are getting this?

91,100 cubic yards of fill was placed in two location on the Fazio side of the river, between 8-19 and 8-25, 1974. Those two piles are visible on the USGS photo(s) of Sept 1974 supplied to the FBI by a Waterways Maint. Enginner, JACK BECHLY, Civil Engineer Chief. The Fazios had the contract to spread the spoils at each location a total of 50 yards off center at each spoil location; that is 25 yards off center in both directions at both spoil sites for a total of fifty yards at each location. The spreading was to occur within two weeks but it took longer than expected for the wet spoils to settle (see USGS photos) so instead the Fazio finished the work within the third week.

No. You are getting this wrong. The Palmer Report says the "clay-lump-dredge-layer" is</