Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
5 (11.6%)
25% Cooper lived
2 (4.7%)
35% Cooper lived.
1 (2.3%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (23.3%)
75% Cooper lived
9 (20.9%)
100 Cooper lived
16 (37.2%)

Total Members Voted: 38

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 368859 times)

Offline hom

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #90 on: May 04, 2014, 03:11:17 AM »
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So how did the crew in the cockpit 'hear' Cooper on the rear intercom - earphones or speaker or something
else, if anyone knows.

The crew in the cockpit could have heard Cooper talking on the interphone at the aft attendant's panel in either of two ways.  If someone in the cockpit was holding the handset to their ear, Cooper could have just picked up the handset at the aft panel and started talking.  If someone didn't already have the phone to their ear, he could have pushed the CAPTAIN button, which would send a signal to the cockpit to alert the crew that someone wanted to talk to them on the interphone.  I have nothing that says what that signal would be.  For calls going the other way, the signal is that the CAPTAIN button would light up.  I'm not sure if the CABIN ATTENDANT button on the overhead panel in the cockpit lights in the same way to indicate that someone in the cabin wants to talk.  (This button is used to light the CAPTAIN light at the flight attendant panels, and the cockpit crew can send a "chime" over the PA as a signal to get the attention of the flight attendants.)

The other way (most likely what was actually used) is this.  In the cockpit, an audio panel which allows selection of what comes into the headsets has a switch to set ON to allow interphone comms to be put into the headsets.  The switch would usually be in this position unless there were a lot of interphone comms that might be interfering with hearing radio comms.  If this switch was ON, all Cooper would have to do is pick up the interphone handset and talk.

The speaker that can be turned on in the cockpit is only for output from the passenger address.  It is the cockpit equivalent of all the speakers in the cabin.  The only way the Cooper comm could have gotten out on a radio circuit would be if that PA speaker in the cockpit was ON and Cooper used the PA at the aft attendant panel while the crew was talking on one of the radios.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 03:16:30 AM by hom »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #91 on: May 04, 2014, 03:22:22 AM »
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So how did the crew in the cockpit 'hear' Cooper on the rear intercom - earphones or speaker or something
else, if anyone knows.

The crew in the cockpit could have heard Cooper talking on the interphone at the aft attendant's panel in either of two ways.  If someone in the cockpit was holding the handset to their ear, Cooper could have just picked up the handset at the aft panel and started talking.  If someone didn't already have the phone to their ear, he could have pushed the CAPTAIN button, which would send a signal to the cockpit to alert the crew that someone wanted to talk to them on the interphone.  I have nothing that says what that signal would be.  For calls going the other way, the signal is that the CAPTAIN button would light up.  I'm not sure if the CABIN ATTENDANT button on the overhead panel in the cockpit lights in the same way to indicate that someone in the cabin wants to talk.  (This button is used to light the CAPTAIN light at the flight attendant panels, and the cockpit crew can send a "chime" over the PA as a signal to get the attention of the flight attendants.)

The other way (most likely what was actually used) is this.  In the cockpit, an audio panel which allows selection of what comes into the headsets has a switch to set ON to allow interphone comms to be put into the headsets.  The switch would usually be in this position unless there were a lot of interphone comms that might be interfering with hearing radio comms.  If this switch was ON, all Cooper would have to do is pick up the interphone handset and talk.

The speaker that can be turned on in the cockpit is only for output from the passenger address.  It is the cockpit equivalent of all the speakers in the cabin.  The only way the Cooper comm could have gotten out on a radio circuit would be if that PA speaker in the cockpit was ON and Cooper used the PA at the aft attendant panel while the crew was talking on one of the radios.

OK, makes sense now. Thanks.

 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Capabilities of the 727, test pilots, Boeing tests, etc.
« Reply #92 on: May 06, 2014, 09:03:55 PM »
Sail and I will be meeting on May 12 for lunch with Don Bennett, a retired Boeing test pilot to discuss the secret Boeing flight tests of the 727 in the late 1960s and other related tidbits of avionic interest.

377 is going bonkers with ideas and questions for us to ask, and I am happy to carry other queries from the general readership.

One special topic is roll-over maneuvers in Boeing products, such as this:

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Since some of the women in the video clip are wearing large crosses on their outfits, I assume they are from a local convent.  Perhaps they are novitiates?

« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 09:14:41 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #93 on: May 14, 2014, 10:58:51 PM »
I'm going through my photo's, can anyone verify this photo giving Cooper an assigned seat, before he moved to the back?
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #94 on: May 15, 2014, 12:46:17 AM »
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Looking good!

Can we have a special category for bashing other members?  Or does Blevins need his own?   ;D ;D

Thanks. Mr. Blevins will be bashing himself after one post on here. it's sad that it had to come to this point, but we had no option. I'm sure he will be saying something soon via DZ. hopefully we can have actual discussions here without the insults. we have already had a lot of people sign in today. I hope we can make this work, and also exist elsewhere in the Cooper community. the forum is still in review with all the options to go through yet. lots of possibilities here.


I would also like to thank everyone for allowing this to happen. it's my pleasure, along with Bruce that this has made it to this point. speak out about any issues, any adjustments needed. like Frasier Crane always said, "I'm Listening"  8)

My only criticism trivial is I wish to get rid of the dark gray sections, to all light gray? It's just a preference. oh well...
 :D
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #95 on: May 15, 2014, 12:53:01 AM »
I mentioned it on 'the new forum" section I think. I had to re-install the theme, so I lost my settings on the colors. I have to go into the file and change out the grey. the problem is that I don't remember where the section was that I changed. it's a huge file I have to thumb thru to find. I was in and out today, so I hope I can figure it out tomorrow. I don't know if you noticed the photo gallery I installed. I'm loading it up. it can be found on the menu bar at the top. Home, help, search, etc. area  8)
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Report of luncheon with Boeing 727 test pilot, Don Bennett
« Reply #96 on: May 15, 2014, 02:39:14 AM »
Bruce's article can be seen in the following post.

Shutter modified this post.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 09:28:07 AM by shutter »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #97 on: May 15, 2014, 02:40:30 AM »
Since I can't read the dark background, I've re-posted.  Once we get the coloring straightened out, we can erase one of these copies. - BAS

***************************

Last Monday, Sail and I met at the Seattle Yacht Club with one of Sail's fellow yachties, Don Bennett.  Don is also a retired 727 "production" test pilot for Boeing and flew 727s extensively in the Cooper era.

Right off the bat we asked Don if he knew anything about the secret testing of the 727 as a jump platform in the late 1960s.

"I heard rumors about dropping the stairs in flight, but I was not involved in any secret testing," he told us. 

As a production test pilot, Don told us his primary responsibility was to test 727s as they came off the assembly line.

"The 7-2-7 was a lovely airplane," Don said.  "It was a hell of an airplane."

Don's love of this aircraft was still evident as he discussed the old days of test flying.

"The 7-2-7 was a very odd airplane, and the center of lift was ahead of the landing gear."  Don explained that this meant that the pilots had to land a bit differently than in other Boeing products, such as how Sail has described here in his post, namely that the pilots had to lower the nose a bit just before touch-down on the runway.

Don also used the typical parlance for Boeing employees and called this aircraft the Seven-Two-Seven, and not a Seven-Twenty-Seven, as is common elsewhere in Cooper Country, such as with journalists.

One tidbit that attracted my attention is Don's statement that not only could the 727 take off with the aft stairs deployed, the extended stair system also added lift to the take-off.

"It would act like a flap," Don said.

However, Sail reminded me later that deploying the stairs for take-off would also increase drag and thus be a hindrance.

Further, regarding the secret testing, both Don and Sail said that the operation would most likely have taken place away from the central Boeing facilities in the Seattle area and would have been conducted out of the way, such as in Moses Lake, Washington.

We also asked Don about Stan Gilliam, whose grand daughter had told us that her family had a long story about Stan receiving a very probing and mysterious phone call about the technical aspects of deploying the aft stairs in flight.  The woman, Jayme Nimick, says her grand father thought it might have been DB Cooper calling to get advanced knowledge about the jump. OF course, Sail thought the phone call originated from Sheridan Peterson in Building 9-101, but Don thought it was internal security from Boeing checking up on Stan and the 727 testing operation.

"It was the Boeing CIA," he said with a chuckle. 

This remark initiated a lengthy conversation about Boeing security and how it monitored its employees out of country.  Don had numerous occasions to train foreign flight crews in the operation of 727 and came in contact with lots of strange people, including a voluptuous Russian named "Natasha."

In the course of the conversation, Don also confirmed that he knew Stan Gilliam, and remembered he was a test flight engineer, and was also on some of these foreign test programs, which jived with what Jayme had told me.

Despite the espionage, babes in black, and hulking Russkies, both Don and Sail dismissed the sinister notion that the 727 was developed as a secret jump platform for American commando troops.

"It was just one more canny angle from the marketing department," Sail posited.

Along those lines, I asked Don is a 727 could be landed on an aircraft carrier and he agreed.  This feat, and it's role in the Boeing marketing strategy for selling the 727 to the military, was one of the few really interesting items delivered by the WSHM staff during their Symposium last November.

Don also told us that the 700 series of numbers were used by Boeing because when they developed the 707 - the world's first commercial jetliner - they didn't know what angle to set the wings.  Apparently the wing sweep is very critical in turns as the lift and drag factors on each wing vary greatly and the aircraft could become unstable very quickly.

"The story at Boeing was that the engineers went back to the Germans from WW II and their designs for their jet aircraft and found that 70.7 degrees was the optimal angle.  As a result, the plane was called the Seven - Zero - Seven.

Don also told us that the 707 was first developed in 1955 and Boeing sank $19 million dollars into its creation.

"The total worth of Boeing at that time was only $25 million, so Boeing had everything riding on this aircraft," Don said.

This discussion dove-tailed with my query from 377 as to the veracity of Tex Johnson rolling the first 707 prototype during a fly-over conducted in front of potential airline customers. Both Sail and Don agreed that it happened, but the disagreements over what happened next were hotly debated for the rest of the luncheon.  Don said that Tex was shipped off to some Boeing flight gulag as punishment, while Sail said that Tex eventually got a promotion and a raise.  Don countered and said that Tex lost his pilot's license of a spell, which was again countered by Sail.

In the course of this debate, Don told us that he respected Tex as a pilot but didn't like him as a person because he hit on his wife in front of him and a bunch of Boeing pilots.

"But Tex was a helluva pilot. One of the best," Don told us. "But I didn't like how he treated my wife...."

Surprisingly, the incident occurred after Don and some other pilots had just flown a B-17 bomber into Boeing Field, so this event places these characters in a historic moment in time.

Another surprising comment was that Don told us he was flying a C-141 out of McChord on a training mission when DB Cooper was flying south to Mexico.

"I listened to the transmission during the skyjacking for about an hour.  It was fascinating."

Don told us that he was instructed to vacate the area for several hours, and he flew west.  This jives with what Everett Johnson told us about flying into Seattle during the skyjacking and having to make an emergency landing at Paine Field in Everett, WA.

This places further skepticism on Captain Tom Bohan's account that he was four minutes behind 305 into PDX and that the cross winds were up to 80 knots as reported in Himmelsbach's book.

Lastly, Don flew the second 727 plane built and instructed a Piedmont crew in its operation.  However, the pilots insisted on taking off during a snow storm and several inches of snow blew off the top of the airplane and were sucked into the tail engine, causing it to malfunction.  Later models of the 727 then had the #2 engine mounted six inches high above the fuselage to prevent this problem, according to Don.

Don also told us that the first 727 built in production was a 727-100, identical to the one Cooper used.  However, this first plane was struck by a Cessna during its Piedmont crew training and was destroyed.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #98 on: May 15, 2014, 09:26:20 AM »
Here is a little more info on Piedmont airlines. they owned n467us for several years in the late 70's
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 09:31:17 AM by shutter »
 

Offline hom

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #99 on: May 16, 2014, 01:52:46 AM »
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I'm going through my photo's, can anyone verify this photo giving Cooper an assigned seat, before he moved to the back?

I don't remember off hand whether or not it has ever been established that there was seat assignment.  For some reason, I think not.

For sure, though, the seat arrangement and the place indicated for where Coop sat is wrong.  The arrangement in this graphic has too many rows of seats.  21 where it should be 18.  Where he sat was in the row just forward of the lavatories.  The overall idea of where the entry and airstair and the stews' areas were is OK.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #100 on: May 16, 2014, 02:01:19 AM »
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I'm going through my photo's, can anyone verify this photo giving Cooper an assigned seat, before he moved to the back?

I don't remember off hand whether or not it has ever been established that there was seat assignment.  For some reason, I think not.

For sure, though, the seat arrangement and the place indicated for where Coop sat is wrong.  The arrangement in this graphic has too many rows of seats.  21 where it should be 18.  Where he sat was in the row just forward of the lavatories.  The overall idea of where the entry and airstair and the stews' areas were is OK.


Thanks, I kinda had the feeling a lot was wrong...If you have any photo's to add that would be great. tags would be placed in your name.
for the photo gallery 
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 02:05:10 AM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #101 on: May 16, 2014, 11:42:05 PM »
Aren't these the seats Cooper sat in? Isnt this from the series of photos taken during the test flight, some of which show the open rear door, stairs extended, etc? Note there are three seats there.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 11:45:38 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #102 on: May 16, 2014, 11:45:35 PM »
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Aren't these the seats Cooper sat in?

Yep, I thought I had that one in there. I only put one in the "evidence" section of a different angle.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #103 on: May 16, 2014, 11:46:22 PM »
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Aren't these the seats Cooper sat in?

Yep, I thought I had that one in there. I only put one in the "evidence" section of a different angle.

I have the whole package of photos if you want them - will have to find the file...

Something strikes me as Im looking at that photo - the head rest towels! OMG!  A forensic goldmine! What happened to those towels? Did they go to Quantico?
 
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 11:50:50 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #104 on: May 16, 2014, 11:50:03 PM »
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Aren't these the seats Cooper sat in?

Yep, I thought I had that one in there. I only put one in the "evidence" section of a different angle.

I have the whole package of photos if you want them - will have to find the file...

Sure, I want to get as many as possible so we have them at a moments notice. any newspaper clips, plane, evidence, money etc. what ever we can use to document everything.