Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
5 (11.4%)
25% Cooper lived
3 (6.8%)
35% Cooper lived.
1 (2.3%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (22.7%)
75% Cooper lived
9 (20.5%)
100 Cooper lived
16 (36.4%)

Total Members Voted: 39

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 422754 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5625 on: May 12, 2020, 04:42:29 PM »
The picture shows two rows of two..Emerick has one of the first two in his hand..the second row has one tilted outward and the bottom row has only one chute running horizontal....

As for the DZ..I don't have the bandwidth coverage they do..I can bump it up a little more but ALL useless photo's don't belong will be removed if they are not related to the case..
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 04:59:08 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5626 on: May 12, 2020, 10:47:50 PM »
Going to move all of these pages off this thread...
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 11:04:28 PM by Shutter »
 
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Online georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5627 on: May 22, 2020, 01:04:23 AM »
The Heisson store robbery the night of the hijacking and a parachute found later in the area in 1980 ... are being examined at DZ if your interested. I wont try to cover that or comment here because I dont want to appear to be dominating this forum. Happy holiday ...   :chr2:
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5628 on: June 28, 2020, 02:40:10 AM »
The Sketches

The work that Nat Loufoque did on the sketches is invaluable. I poo-poohed it initially, but I have re-read his book more carefully and will be incorporating a lot of his work into my chapters on the profile of DB Cooper and his physical appearance.

I've exchanged a few emails with Nat concerning this development, and I thought a recent email from Nat would be worth posting here:


"Although I understand the confusion, I never meant to imply that Hunt skyjacked the plane at the behest of the Nixon administration. The reason I brought up Watergate and the burglary of Ellsberg's psychiatrist's office is because--like the Cooper heist--they took place over holiday weekends, so there's a common modus operandi. If Hunt was Cooper, Hunt was acting mostly on behalf of Hunt, not Nixon. In my book I raised the possibility that Cooper--whoever he was--might have been in cahoots with the CIA on some level, and pointed out that the CIA certainly was not happy about all the airliners being hijacked and diverted to Cuba, but the motive I ascribe to Hunt is that he was angry about the CIA not changing his annuity from a single to that of a joint, and was bitter about the way the CIA treated him in general. My theory is that this was all about Hunt finding a way to secure his retirement while sending an FU message to the CIA. And if you think about it, the CIA was in kind of a bad position here. They had to know that Cooper must have had inside knowledge about the ongoing Air America program, so if Cooper were to be apprehended there was a good chance he'd threaten to disclose information about Air America as a bargaining chip.

"Of course, Hunt would have been aware that smuggling a bomb on board a plane would have been a great way to spotlight the problems of lax airport security. I had to allow for the possibility that part of his motive was to find some way to cut down on airliners being diverted to Cuba. If Hunt viewed himself as James Bond, he regarded Fidel Castro as Ernst Blofeld, and nothing would have made Hunt happier than to cut down on the attention the Castro regime received each time another crackpot hijacked a plane to Cuba. But if anything, improving airport security was a pretext Hunt hid behind in his effort to come up with money he felt he was owed.

"I should add that I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, other than those conspiracies that arise in order to cover up past crimes, as in the Watergate break-in.

"You're slightly off on the timing of the B sketches. They were begun on August 7th, 1972, so roughly eight months after the Cooper incident. Because of the crazy way the FBI put the B sketches together, it took about five months for them to end up with the final B sketches. One thing to keep in mind is, the first (Bing Crosby) sketch was done while Rose was in the room with the three stewardesses. But the witness interviews for the B sketches were conducted by field agents and sent to Rose via teletype machines, a much less reliable method. Honestly I don't see how anyone takes the B sketches seriously.

"Your last point about the sketches is correct, though. There was definitely dissent among the witnesses about which was the more accurate sketch. On September 26th, Mucklow was shown one of the B sketches and said the original conception was a better representation of the Unsub, and that the B sketch was not a good representation of the Unsub. She added that the artist's conception was not "him," and that his appearance was completely lost in the B sketch without the sunglasses. She also added that the hairline on the B sketch was incorrect, and that the hairline showing on the original conception was nearly identical to the suspect's. Then on October 4th another witness (presumably a passenger) was shown the same sketch. That witness told the FBI that the modified sketch no longer resembled his or her recollection of the Unsub, and that the original sketch was "much closer" to that of the Unsub.

"I find Hunt a compelling suspect in part because he had so many possible motives for the hijacking. I keep wondering if he had some reason to think he was dying. He wasn't, obviously, but did he get a medical diagnosis that he was, and for that reason was desperate to change his annuity? Who knows?"

--Nat

« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 02:52:36 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5629 on: June 28, 2020, 02:51:41 AM »
Sketches, Bottom Line

I've learned a few things about the sketches from Nat:

1. Tina and Alice liked the Composite A best. Flo was luke-warm.
2. Flo didn't think it was nasty enough, and eventually Composite B was developed about 8 months later. Eventually, all 3 FAs approved Composite B as a good likeness.
3. Over time, Flo didn't like B either, so in the 1980s made her own composite sketch, which I find downright scary.
4. Composite A was developed in Minneapolis with Alice, Flo, And Tina all together. Several versions were developed and then shown to "other witnesses," presumably the passengers, most likely Gregory, Mitchell, House, Spreckel and Labissioniere.
5. The initial A sketch didn't have any eyes, so it was hard to get a real good sense of the "likeness." Eyes and glasses were added later.
6. Composite B began in August of 1972, but it took almost another six months of passing several versions around to the three FAs and the group of "other witness" for final approval. The initial sketching of B with Roy Rose took place remotely. All 3 FAs were home and sent in their suggestions to Rose via separate FBI teletypes.
7. Nat's analysis comes from the 2011 interview with Rose - done by somebody - and the FBI 302s that are now available.
8. I'm not seeing any special weight given to any individual, such as Bill Mitchell, or discounted by too much emotionality, such as Flo.
 
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Online georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5630 on: June 28, 2020, 02:12:04 PM »
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Sketches, Bottom Line

I've learned a few things about the sketches from Nat:

1. Tina and Alice liked the Composite A best. Flo was luke-warm.
2. Flo didn't think it was nasty enough, and eventually Composite B was developed about 8 months later. Eventually, all 3 FAs approved Composite B as a good likeness.
3. Over time, Flo didn't like B either, so in the 1980s made her own composite sketch, which I find downright scary.
4. Composite A was developed in Minneapolis with Alice, Flo, And Tina all together. Several versions were developed and then shown to "other witnesses," presumably the passengers, most likely Gregory, Mitchell, House, Spreckel and Labissioniere.
5. The initial A sketch didn't have any eyes, so it was hard to get a real good sense of the "likeness." Eyes and glasses were added later.
6. Composite B began in August of 1972, but it took almost another six months of passing several versions around to the three FAs and the group of "other witness" for final approval. The initial sketching of B with Roy Rose took place remotely. All 3 FAs were home and sent in their suggestions to Rose via separate FBI teletypes.
7. Nat's analysis comes from the 2011 interview with Rose - done by somebody - and the FBI 302s that are now available.
8. I'm not seeing any special weight given to any individual, such as Bill Mitchell, or discounted by too much emotionality, such as Flo.

Well this is all interesting, if not entertaining.  It's a level above the previous DZ/Weber discussions about sketches posted years ago. Somebody has done some actual research, for a change.

I see the Cooper hijacking as a low level 'poor man's' enterprise; not a CIA operation. If it was done to get funds, then the price was way too low! $500k should have been asked for. What grudge did Hunt have that applies to 'airlines'? And the same for any of Hunt's colleagues. Who would hire Hunt and his thugs to do an airline hijacking which has nothing to do with geopolitics? From Cooper's comments his hijacking was personal with no obvious geopolitical connection. It might be someone who worked with Hunt, a Latin person who works cheap, who didnt even have a personal parachute to bring to the party?

« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 02:15:16 PM by georger »
 
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Offline nickyb233

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5631 on: June 29, 2020, 02:43:08 AM »
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Sketches, Bottom Line

I've learned a few things about the sketches from Nat:

1. Tina and Alice liked the Composite A best. Flo was luke-warm.
2. Flo didn't think it was nasty enough, and eventually Composite B was developed about 8 months later. Eventually, all 3 FAs approved Composite B as a good likeness.
3. Over time, Flo didn't like B either, so in the 1980s made her own composite sketch, which I find downright scary.
4. Composite A was developed in Minneapolis with Alice, Flo, And Tina all together. Several versions were developed and then shown to "other witnesses," presumably the passengers, most likely Gregory, Mitchell, House, Spreckel and Labissioniere.
5. The initial A sketch didn't have any eyes, so it was hard to get a real good sense of the "likeness." Eyes and glasses were added later.
6. Composite B began in August of 1972, but it took almost another six months of passing several versions around to the three FAs and the group of "other witness" for final approval. The initial sketching of B with Roy Rose took place remotely. All 3 FAs were home and sent in their suggestions to Rose via separate FBI teletypes.
7. Nat's analysis comes from the 2011 interview with Rose - done by somebody - and the FBI 302s that are now available.
8. I'm not seeing any special weight given to any individual, such as Bill Mitchell, or discounted by too much emotionality, such as Flo.

Well this is all interesting, if not entertaining.  It's a level above the previous DZ/Weber discussions about sketches posted years ago. Somebody has done some actual research, for a change.

I see the Cooper hijacking as a low level 'poor man's' enterprise; not a CIA operation. If it was done to get funds, then the price was way too low! $500k should have been asked for. What grudge did Hunt have that applies to 'airlines'? And the same for any of Hunt's colleagues. Who would hire Hunt and his thugs to do an airline hijacking which has nothing to do with geopolitics? From Cooper's comments his hijacking was personal with no obvious geopolitical connection. It might be someone who worked with Hunt, a Latin person who works cheap, who didnt even have a personal parachute to bring to the party?

You make some good points here G. I also wondered why cooper didn’t ask for more money. Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t the 200k the least amount requested for any hijacking involving ransom? The only thing I can think of is cooper knew about the 250k all packaged up and ready to go at Sea First. If he asked for over 250k the fbi would of had to scramble to come up with more cash, this might of been problematic and taken more time, seeing as it was late in the day on the eve of thanksgiving. Also he might of requested 200k because he didn’t want to ask for the exact amount they had set aside as that might of raised suspicions that cooper might of been somebody like a Hunt, who was on the inside and well connected, to have known about the ransom fund. That might also explain why cooper never asked for a specific denomination because he already knew he was gonna get what he was gonna get.
 
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Offline RaoulDuke24

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5632 on: June 29, 2020, 03:01:12 PM »
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Sketches, Bottom Line

I've learned a few things about the sketches from Nat:

1. Tina and Alice liked the Composite A best. Flo was luke-warm.
2. Flo didn't think it was nasty enough, and eventually Composite B was developed about 8 months later. Eventually, all 3 FAs approved Composite B as a good likeness.
3. Over time, Flo didn't like B either, so in the 1980s made her own composite sketch, which I find downright scary.
4. Composite A was developed in Minneapolis with Alice, Flo, And Tina all together. Several versions were developed and then shown to "other witnesses," presumably the passengers, most likely Gregory, Mitchell, House, Spreckel and Labissioniere.
5. The initial A sketch didn't have any eyes, so it was hard to get a real good sense of the "likeness." Eyes and glasses were added later.
6. Composite B began in August of 1972, but it took almost another six months of passing several versions around to the three FAs and the group of "other witness" for final approval. The initial sketching of B with Roy Rose took place remotely. All 3 FAs were home and sent in their suggestions to Rose via separate FBI teletypes.
7. Nat's analysis comes from the 2011 interview with Rose - done by somebody - and the FBI 302s that are now available.
8. I'm not seeing any special weight given to any individual, such as Bill Mitchell, or discounted by too much emotionality, such as Flo.

Well this is all interesting, if not entertaining.  It's a level above the previous DZ/Weber discussions about sketches posted years ago. Somebody has done some actual research, for a change.

I see the Cooper hijacking as a low level 'poor man's' enterprise; not a CIA operation. If it was done to get funds, then the price was way too low! $500k should have been asked for. What grudge did Hunt have that applies to 'airlines'? And the same for any of Hunt's colleagues. Who would hire Hunt and his thugs to do an airline hijacking which has nothing to do with geopolitics? From Cooper's comments his hijacking was personal with no obvious geopolitical connection. It might be someone who worked with Hunt, a Latin person who works cheap, who didnt even have a personal parachute to bring to the party?

You make some good points here G. I also wondered why cooper didn’t ask for more money. Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t the 200k the least amount requested for any hijacking involving ransom? The only thing I can think of is cooper knew about the 250k all packaged up and ready to go at Sea First. If he asked for over 250k the fbi would of had to scramble to come up with more cash, this might of been problematic and taken more time, seeing as it was late in the day on the eve of thanksgiving. Also he might of requested 200k because he didn’t want to ask for the exact amount they had set aside as that might of raised suspicions that cooper might of been somebody like a Hunt, who was on the inside and well connected, to have known about the ransom fund. That might also explain why cooper never asked for a specific denomination because he already knew he was gonna get what he was gonna get.

It is an interesting theory. And it also works the other way as well ---- If he knew there was 250k set aside, but did not know the denominations of that 250k, then it stands to reason why he didn't specify a denomination when he made the ransom demand. He didn't want to request the wrong denomination because that would have caused even further delay while the airline rounded up the correct bills. So he figures he won't specify a denomination, which means he'll just take whatever they have available and it won't lead to any additional time sitting on the runway in Seattle waiting.

If he knew the ransom was in $20 bills, maybe he had to determine how much weight he was comfortable jumping with. I believe the 200k came in at around 23 pounds or so? So perhaps he decided that 25 pounds was going to be his comfort limit given the type of jump he was making. Maybe he knew the full 250k would have been pushing the weight limit too much?

I tend to agree that the fact he did not ask for a specific denomination was not an error or oversight on Cooper's part, but rather something he did with intention and purpose. 

 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5633 on: June 29, 2020, 06:30:00 PM »
More on the Sketches

Here's a preliminary view of my chapter on the sketches, incorporating all the information from above, coupled with pix. At the MN:

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Offline Lynn

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5634 on: July 19, 2020, 07:49:42 PM »
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More on the Sketches

Here's a preliminary view of my chapter on the sketches, incorporating all the information from above, coupled with pix. At the MN:

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I've always found the Joshua Ryal sketch interesting, because he's an absolute Everyman. A face that just blends. But I tend to go with B just because it's less dependent on Flo. I still think it's interesting the eyes got added in when other witnesses were added and didn't come from Flo, who is the perfect example of emotion colouring memory.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5635 on: July 19, 2020, 09:26:14 PM »
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More on the Sketches

Here's a preliminary view of my chapter on the sketches, incorporating all the information from above, coupled with pix. At the MN:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've always found the Joshua Ryal sketch interesting, because he's an absolute Everyman. A face that just blends. But I tend to go with B just because it's less dependent on Flo. I still think it's interesting the eyes got added in when other witnesses were added and didn't come from Flo, who is the perfect example of emotion colouring memory.

Lynn, when will your next book be out?  Be sure to announce it here.
 

Offline RaoulDuke24

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5636 on: July 21, 2020, 11:48:41 AM »
Where o where are those Cooper cigarette butts....

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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5637 on: July 21, 2020, 05:31:20 PM »
This would be a good time to remote view them, eh Raoul?
 

Offline foxmanb

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5638 on: July 28, 2020, 08:59:31 PM »
Agreed. The butts would most likely give us the true identity of Cooper. The things we can do with DNA and the databases available, we'd find him. Sadly, either the FBI doesn't want us to know who Cooper is, or they are completely inept and lost the evidence.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5639 on: July 28, 2020, 10:46:18 PM »
Billy Jensen was on a dogged search for the butts after he wrapped the History Channel shoot in 2015-2016. But he seems to have been side-lined by the Golden State Killer. So many mysteries, so little time...

What Cooper World needs is a guy like me whom the FBI likes, and thereby can get access to look around, ask questions, drink coffee with the guys and find out what happened. Billy had a shot.

Foxxie, you dat guy?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 10:47:09 PM by Bruce A. Smith »