Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
5 (11.6%)
25% Cooper lived
2 (4.7%)
35% Cooper lived.
1 (2.3%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (23.3%)
75% Cooper lived
9 (20.9%)
100 Cooper lived
16 (37.2%)

Total Members Voted: 38

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 385764 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5220 on: December 16, 2019, 11:38:39 PM »
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I want to thank everyone for your advice concerning books. I will take it to heart. I plan to start with Martin Andrade's first, followed shortly thereafter by Himm's. Thanks again for the input!   Thank you Bruce for the invitation to talk. I will take you up on it after the holidays. Enjoy your trip east!

May the Force be with you . . . Happy Holidays to all.
 
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Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5221 on: December 17, 2019, 01:43:19 PM »
Georger wrote: "About Tosaw:             Farflung posted this 1988 article about Tosaw years ago on DZ; it caught my attention at the time. After eight years of finding nothing in his searches Tosaw was announcing a major shift in his methods, based he said on "new information" about fishermen dragging/cleaning the river floor twice a years ... for the last 30+ years!!

The problem is I have never been able to find a fishermen or salvage person who validates Tosaw's claim that fisherman drag the river bottom (and clean it) twice a year.

Why would Tosaw make such a claim if there was no truth to it?  Maybe there is a fisherman here who can explain it?"


As a fisherman, I too find that claim odd. Aside from snag hazards, structure (including debris) on the bottom is generally seen as a positive since it attracts and holds fish. Featureless water body bottoms aren't normally very "fishy". Also dragging and cleaning a river bottom area is expensive. These days you would have all sorts of environmental regulations to deal with. I've done a lot of sport and commercial fishing. I've never heard of fishermen dragging a river bottom to clean it.

377
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5222 on: December 17, 2019, 02:05:42 PM »
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Georger wrote: "About Tosaw:             Farflung posted this 1988 article about Tosaw years ago on DZ; it caught my attention at the time. After eight years of finding nothing in his searches Tosaw was announcing a major shift in his methods, based he said on "new information" about fishermen dragging/cleaning the river floor twice a years ... for the last 30+ years!!

The problem is I have never been able to find a fishermen or salvage person who validates Tosaw's claim that fisherman drag the river bottom (and clean it) twice a year.

Why would Tosaw make such a claim if there was no truth to it?  Maybe there is a fisherman here who can explain it?"


As a fisherman, I too find that claim odd. Aside from snag hazards, structure (including debris) on the bottom is generally seen as a positive since it attracts and holds fish. Featureless water body bottoms aren't normally very "fishy". Also dragging and cleaning a river bottom area is expensive. These days you would have all sorts of environmental regulations to deal with. I've done a lot of sport and commercial fishing. I've never heard of fishermen dragging a river bottom to clean it.

377

Commercial fishermen in the Portland area told me Tosaw's claim was nonsense. #1 they dont do the yearly bottom cleaning dragging, Tosaw claimed! They had no idea what he was referring to. They wondered if his interview was meant for California consumption since anyone in the Portland area would know it was nonsense. Several speculated Tosaw was offering an excuse, since Tosaw had found nothing in eight years of bottom dragging. Most people just went on with their lives and said nothing. #2 Gill net fishing uses nets that never touch the bottom!

Tosaw was such a Publicity Hound we tend to focus on him and his noise -  meantime the rest of the world was doing other things after the Ingram find, exploring elsewhere with different techniques, no publicity, negative results, a sizable list of these people, a running catalog of notes and dates and names noting people's explorations in different places, all being kept quietly by the owner of Aquatic Sports in Portland who was serving as a kind of 'home base' for people and their operations. Tosaw's 1988 news release might have been an announcement that he was now going to join the race searching wing dams, which other people had already been doing since Feb 1980!

The area was being searched - thoroughly, between 1980 - 1990!  Nothing was being found - no parachute, no brief case, no bag of money people were keen to find, nothing related to Cooper's body . . . nothing!  Tosaw was soaking up the publicity - while a whole cadre of others searching were receiving no news coverage at all! Informed onlookers took note and pondered it all and waited . . .   

I miss Farflung and his 'clarity'!  ;)   
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 03:13:30 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5223 on: December 17, 2019, 09:04:07 PM »
Who are all these "dredge people?" I'd like to hear what they have to say. Might make a good subject/speaker for a podcast or CooperCon...
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5224 on: December 17, 2019, 11:36:10 PM »
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Who are all these "dredge people?" I'd like to hear what they have to say. Might make a good subject/speaker for a podcast or CooperCon...

My current plan is to post a synopsis of Tosaw work ... then a synopsis of outsider searches with names and places or areas searched .... some time after the New Year. Covering 1980 to about 2010.

I already gave one name away:  John Glen – found parachute back in 1972 on Mt Hood ?  was judged not Cooper’s by Cossey and the FBI. Had a deep interest in the Cooper case, helped others suggesting places to search. Worked with Bob Powelson Sr at Aquatic Sports helping line people up for searches in the Tina Bar area Etc. An interesting Cooperite. Still alive - I talked to him in 2019.   
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 12:19:29 AM by georger »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5225 on: December 22, 2019, 04:29:03 PM »
A few notes about Alice Hancock, undisputed and from various documents.

Alice Hancock was the Senior flight attendant in charge that day and in charge of the other stews. Her station allowed her to tend to the first class passengers in addition to supervising the other stews. Her station allowed her to observe Cooper directly and interact with him, which she did on at least three occasions.

One document says: "Schaffner took the note Cooper had dictated to her to Alice Hancock, who took it to the cockpit. The pilot and co-pilot relayed to air traffic control at SeaTac that a man with a bomb had taken control of the plane and wanted $200,000 in "negotiable American currency". The airport's management called the Seattle PD, which, in turn, called the FBI. They had about an hour to come up with the cash and the parachutes."

Chief eyewitnesses were Mitchell, Mucklow, Schaffner and Hancock who all gave depositions: 

Hancock describes how she went to Cooper directly and talked to him briefly to try and get a reading on the man, after Flo had given her his instructions. She passed her observations on to the pilots. Alice watched as Tina brought in the money and the chutes and gave Tina a nod asking if she needed help. Alice watched and noted his reactions as Cooper received the money and the chutes. Alice inquired about Schaffner's condition as Flo was holding forth in the cockpit.

Hancock could not remember what kind of maps the subject requested. During the flight, Hancock advises the hijacker wanted continual re-assurance that nothing was going to go wrong.  She stated that the hijacker was good natured during the flight.

(During her final minutes on board and after the parachutes had been brought aboard), Hancock noticed that one of the parachutes had been unpacked and she asked the hijacker if he had taken the parachute apart and he replied “yes”.   Hancock says the hijacker began unpacking one chute and cutting cords almost as soon as the chutes were brought on board. Hancock asked the hijacker why he was doing this! Cooper stated that he needed to make a container for the money since his request for a knapsack had been ignored. This lead to a fairly lengthy exchange - Hancock told the hijacker they could still get him a knapsack to which Cooper replied: 'Dont bother. I can make something up', or something to that effect.

Cooper never offered Hancock any money.

Hancock states that he had his hand inside the brief case at all times when he and Mucklow were seated together in row 18.

(Hancock and the hijacker had several more interactions but the data on that has not been released yet. One exchange involves the hijacker asking Hancock to remain visible. The hijacker would not let Mucklow come forward and he told Hancock that he wanted her and Mucklow to remain visible at all times.)

When Hancock and Schaffner were released to leave the plane, it was Schaffner who went to the back of the plane and asked the hijacker directly if the stewardesses could go and he said: Whatever you girls would like”. Then Hancock and Schaffner left the plane with Mucklow still in the back with the hijacker. No sooner had Hancock left the plane and was standing beside the front of the plane, Hancock realised she had left her purse at her station on the plane. Alice went back up the stairs and went back to the hijacker and asked him if she could retrieve her purse, and the hijacker sad "yes, of course". Hancock thanked the hijacker and left the plane with her purse without any further interaction with Mucklow or the hijacker.

Further elaboration pending . . . 
« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 05:00:43 PM by georger »
 

Online Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5226 on: December 22, 2019, 07:10:39 PM »
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A few notes about Alice Hancock, undisputed and from various documents.

Alice Hancock was the Senior flight attendant in charge that day and in charge of the other stews. Her station allowed her to tend to the first class passengers in addition to supervising the other stews. Her station allowed her to observe Cooper directly and interact with him, which she did on at least three occasions.

One document says: "Schaffner took the note Cooper had dictated to her to Alice Hancock, who took it to the cockpit. The pilot and co-pilot relayed to air traffic control at SeaTac that a man with a bomb had taken control of the plane and wanted $200,000 in "negotiable American currency". The airport's management called the Seattle PD, which, in turn, called the FBI. They had about an hour to come up with the cash and the parachutes."

Chief eyewitnesses were Mitchell, Mucklow, Schaffner and Hancock who all gave depositions: 

Hancock describes how she went to Cooper directly and talked to him briefly to try and get a reading on the man, after Flo had given her his instructions. She passed her observations on to the pilots. Alice watched as Tina brought in the money and the chutes and gave Tina a nod asking if she needed help. Alice watched and noted his reactions as Cooper received the money and the chutes. Alice inquired about Schaffner's condition as Flo was holding forth in the cockpit.

Hancock could not remember what kind of maps the subject requested. During the flight, Hancock advises the hijacker wanted continual re-assurance that nothing was going to go wrong.  She stated that the hijacker was good natured during the flight.

(During her final minutes on board and after the parachutes had been brought aboard), Hancock noticed that one of the parachutes had been unpacked and she asked the hijacker if he had taken the parachute apart and he replied “yes”.   Hancock says the hijacker began unpacking one chute and cutting cords almost as soon as the chutes were brought on board. Hancock asked the hijacker why he was doing this! Cooper stated that he needed to make a container for the money since his request for a knapsack had been ignored. This lead to a fairly lengthy exchange - Hancock told the hijacker they could still get him a knapsack to which Cooper replied: 'Dont bother. I can make something up', or something to that effect.

Cooper never offered Hancock any money.

Hancock states that he had his hand inside the brief case at all times when he and Mucklow were seated together in row 18.

(Hancock and the hijacker had several more interactions but the data on that has not been released yet. One exchange involves the hijacker asking Hancock to remain visible. The hijacker would not let Mucklow come forward and he told Hancock that he wanted her and Mucklow to remain visible at all times.)

When Hancock and Schaffner were released to leave the plane, it was Schaffner who went to the back of the plane and asked the hijacker directly if the stewardesses could go and he said: Whatever you girls would like”. Then Hancock and Schaffner left the plane with Mucklow still in the back with the hijacker. No sooner had Hancock left the plane and was standing beside the front of the plane, Hancock realised she had left her purse at her station on the plane. Alice went back up the stairs and went back to the hijacker and asked him if she could retrieve her purse, and the hijacker sad "yes, of course". Hancock thanked the hijacker and left the plane with her purse without any further interaction with Mucklow or the hijacker.

Further elaboration pending . . .

Here are some facts related to the maps and crew meals.  There is no documentation that the flight crew was ever informed that Cooper wanted maps and crew meals but was informed of Cooper's other demands.  There is no documentation that the flight crew ever informed NWA personnel in Seattle that Cooper wanted maps and crew meals although they were informed of Cooper's other demands.

Flo does not mention Cooper asking for maps and crew meals in her FBI 302 interview which was conducted in Seattle immediately after she left the aircraft but she mentioned the other demands. 

Alice does mention Cooper asking for maps and crew meals in her FBI 302 interview which was conducted in Seattle immediately after she left the aircraft and she mentioned the other demands.

The FBI 302 interviews of Harald Anderson, William Rataczak, and Captain William Scott in Reno immediately after the hijacking do not mention Cooper asking for maps and crew meals.

Tina does not mention Cooper asking for maps and crew meals in her FBI 302 interview in Reno immediately after the hijacking.

In another FBI 302 interview done in Pennsylvania on December 1 and 2, 1971, Tina is quoted making the following statement:

     "She [Tina] told him [Cooper] that they had crew meals and maps, and requested permission to go get them.  [See additional comment following which was inserted here in another version of this quotation from unknown sources.]  He said "'yes'", and she did, returning the items and taking a seat next to him."  The additional comment, from unknown sources, is "he had not asked for maps after originally ordering maps  ???".

The above quotation took place after the money and parachutes were onboard.  It is also the first documented mention of one of the stews mentioning maps or crew meals, other than Alice's interview.

Just prior to landing in Seattle, Al Lee informed the flight crew through the ARINC teletype system that he had four crew meals and maps available.  He gave a brief description of the aeronautical maps.  As Al Lee would know without anyone mentioning anything to him, the crew would need additional maps and some food in this matter.  Al Lee apparently did not include a meal for Cooper.

Alice would still be on the aircraft when Tina brought the box of maps and crew meals on board and she may have just assumed that Cooper had asked for them.  There is no supporting documentation that Cooper asked for them.  Alice's involvement in the whole matter is discussed further in other paperwork.  But it appears to be obvious that she had less contact with Cooper than Tina and Flo. 



 
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Online Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5227 on: December 22, 2019, 10:14:42 PM »
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One document says: "Schaffner took the note Cooper had dictated to her to Alice Hancock, who took it to the cockpit. The pilot and co-pilot relayed to air traffic control at SeaTac that a man with a bomb had taken control of the plane and wanted $200,000 in "negotiable American currency". The airport's management called the Seattle PD, which, in turn, called the FBI. They had about an hour to come up with the cash and the parachutes."


The above quotation is at least partially wrong.  The flight crew informed NWA through the ARINC radio/teletype system that they were being hijacked within a couple of minutes of the hijacking.  It is unknown if the flight crew notified Seattle ATC Center of the hijacking. 

The SEATAC tower personnel are quoted in the transcripts as saying they only learned of the hijacking as the airliner was landing which was after 5:00PM.

It was NWA personnel who contacted the FBI and started the process to get the parachutes and the cash.  The FBI was automatically the lead law enforcement agency in the hijacking since it was a federal crime.

In matters such as the hijacking, all airlines and everybody else involved with aviation as well as all law enforcement agencies and others work together. 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5228 on: December 22, 2019, 11:31:40 PM »
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One document says: "Schaffner took the note Cooper had dictated to her to Alice Hancock, who took it to the cockpit. The pilot and co-pilot relayed to air traffic control at SeaTac that a man with a bomb had taken control of the plane and wanted $200,000 in "negotiable American currency". The airport's management called the Seattle PD, which, in turn, called the FBI. They had about an hour to come up with the cash and the parachutes."


The above quotation is at least partially wrong.  The flight crew informed NWA through the ARINC radio/teletype system that they were being hijacked within a couple of minutes of the hijacking.  It is unknown if the flight crew notified Seattle ATC Center of the hijacking. 

The SEATAC tower personnel are quoted in the transcripts as saying they only learned of the hijacking as the airliner was landing which was after 5:00PM.

It was NWA personnel who contacted the FBI and started the process to get the parachutes and the cash.  The FBI was automatically the lead law enforcement agency in the hijacking since it was a federal crime.

In matters such as the hijacking, all airlines and everybody else involved with aviation as well as all law enforcement agencies and others work together.

Likewise, it was the end of a long day, a long run of stops starting on the East coast, everyone had holiday connections to make, a 30minute milk run. Crew tired. No air marshals on board. Open and vulnerable. Cooper passed his note. The crew went into action.     
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5229 on: December 26, 2019, 08:01:42 PM »

All,
Anyone have any info on a Mexican version of the Dan Cooper Comic??

Tom Kaye
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5230 on: December 26, 2019, 10:52:40 PM »
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All,
Anyone have any info on a Mexican version of the Dan Cooper Comic??

Tom Kaye

On the Hahneman train too, Tom?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5231 on: January 10, 2020, 02:50:59 PM »
For Tommy Kaye and the celestial Ozma:

FLYJACK says again for the umpteeth time - he needs attention:

"If you look at the UV particle distribution pattern on the tie.. there is a concetration pattern that suggests the tie was rubbed across something in various places. The control tie particle distribution under UV is random with no pattern. Cooper may have used the tie to wipe his prints.. "

concetration = concentration in Englich.

 :-X hint: Vegans and Elvis Impersonators dont see the world as you or I do! All electrical polarities are reversed - be careful!
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 02:55:39 PM by georger »
 

Offline Lynn

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5232 on: January 18, 2020, 10:51:02 AM »
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All,
Anyone have any info on a Mexican version of the Dan Cooper Comic??

Tom Kaye

On the Hahneman train too, Tom?
LOL There's a Hahnemann train? Sorry, his MO makes no sense in the later hijacking if he was Cooper. He changed everything Cooper did right; it's irrelevant whether he made the jump, lots of people did similar jumps. He had contact with the crew, was violent and threatening, let the passengers know he was jacking the plane - just doesn't make sense. He might have the skills, motivation, and looks to be Cooper, but why would he change not only an MO that worked, but his entire personality? No sale.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5233 on: January 24, 2020, 05:38:41 PM »
Flyjack proclaims:    FLYJACK: Increasing public interest helps books, films and narratives, it doesn't help advance the case. The public does not have the knowledge and ability to discriminate and process all the information in such a complex case. They accept what they are presented as fact rather than develop their own conclusions. It perpetuates uninformed opinions.


It perpetuates uninformed opinions.

It perpetuates uninformed opinions.

It perpetuates uninformed opinions like Packets with unseen dissolved Paper straps, et cetera.     :rofl:
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 05:42:25 PM by georger »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5234 on: February 16, 2020, 09:14:43 PM »
Recent article about partial DNA and how the FBI has rules against releasing the information if it can be used to target individuals.  They won't release it for a murder case.

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