Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
5 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
3 (6.7%)
35% Cooper lived.
1 (2.2%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
9 (20%)
100 Cooper lived
17 (37.8%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 437592 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5130 on: November 24, 2019, 12:49:22 AM »
If Cooper used the emergency handle on 305 the handle would be hanging down from the wall a minimum of 8 inches..should of been very obvious it was used.
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5131 on: November 24, 2019, 11:11:45 AM »
The post above shows a 727-100PA had the emergency system. I'm guessing that means "passenger aircraft" and another document states not all 100's had this option. nothing in the files to date explain any evidence of the emergency option was used on 305. two pieces would be missing from the wall. the outer cover/panel and the safety plastic behind the panel you pull off the wall to get to the handle. the safety card shown below clearly shows the handle protruding out of the wall once it's been pulled.

What is not completely clear is the statements on the placard. Flyjack pointed this out. they don't match any safety card I've found showing how to operate the emergency function. I'm not really sure you could call the small pullout panel a door. manuals refer to it as a panel or cover. if the placard was above the emergency panel it might confuse someone to open the normal release door to the left. that's the only door on the wall.

Several problems were noted long after the hijacking. an accident occurred and key issues were found involving the rear stairs. the crew was not properly trained in regards to the emergency function and not even aware it was there. the next problem was the normal stair release door panel when opened would cover or hide the emergency panel. they were given options to have the door swing open in the opposite direction or have adequate placards in place. this also suggests this aircraft didn't have the placard we have come to know over the years or the NTSB would of seen it. the pullout panel does have writing on it but no clear pictures have been found with the placard we have in place. the aft stairs themselves fall into a gray area of not being an official emergency exit to begin with.

Even prior to the accident in 1980. after the placard was found you would tend to believe NWO would mention this placard was placed on all there 100's that had the emergency option. who knows the plane better than the owners? why didn't they simply say the placard was right beside the normal stair release door? to add to the confusion the FBI claims it could of come off any 727. this was after getting the blue prints showing where the "decal" was placed. this was pointed out by Flyjack. statements of it being missing only appear after the fact. no 302 has mentioned this previous to 1978.
 
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Offline nickyb233

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5132 on: November 26, 2019, 02:28:34 AM »
I really soaked things up at the conference, had an open mind with everyone’s theories and insights. Here is my big take away and I’m going against Bruce (The Mayor) here respectfully and going to say the evidence points more too cooper fitting the profile of an engineer then MAC-V-Sog or special forces. Cooper wanted to show he was smarter then everybody else, he got off on that. It explains why he wanted to take off with stairs down and then argue it a bit, why he would point out where the oxygen bottles were, why he requested 15 degree flap setting and another big thing is it was reported by Lauren Peterson that cooper gave specific instructions on how to fill up the fuel tanks for this flight config. I asked Gavin captain Scott’s daughters significant other at the conference why do you think he gave specific fueling instructions and he said if he did that it was because he wanted to show he knew what he was doin and it worked because Loren stated in his interview with the WSHS that the mechanics and such working for nwo were impressed by that. He wanted to show off his smarts and or make sure these guys fueled it right, something a know it all would do. That’s typical mentality of engineers. A MVS/special forces guy would of not felt the need be so meticulous and go into such extra technicals details, if he was a commando/special ops/mvs he would of just wanted to get the job done, yes special forces or mvs would of hand the precise planning but this is a next level of detail cooper had and when you look at the tie particles as well it wreaks of an engineer. Not to mention bill Mitchell’s description of geeky looking guy. I’ve met some beginners and boy do those guy look geeky, especially to me being younger in comparison like Bill was...anyway just my perspective that I’ve come to form as I continue to examine NORJACK with an open mind from all angles.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 02:58:57 AM by nickyb233 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5133 on: November 26, 2019, 03:42:45 AM »
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I really soaked things up at the conference, had an open mind with everyone’s theories and insights. Here is my big take away and I’m going against Bruce (The Mayor) here respectfully and going to say the evidence points more too cooper fitting the profile of an engineer then MAC-V-Sog or special forces. Cooper wanted to show he was smarter then everybody else, he got off on that. It explains why he wanted to take off with stairs down and then argue it a bit, why he would point out where the oxygen bottles were, why he requested 15 degree flap setting and another big thing is it was reported by Lauren Peterson that cooper gave specific instructions on how to fill up the fuel tanks for this flight config. I asked Gavin captain Scott’s daughters significant other at the conference why do you think he gave specific fueling instructions and he said if he did that it was because he wanted to show he knew what he was doin and it worked because Loren stated in his interview with the WSHS that the mechanics and such working for nwo were impressed by that. He wanted to show off his smarts and or make sure these guys fueled it right, something a know it all would do. That’s typical mentality of engineers. A MVS/special forces guy would of not felt the need be so meticulous and go into such extra technicals details, if he was a commando/special ops/mvs he would of just wanted to get the job done, yes special forces or mvs would of hand the precise planning but this is a next level of detail cooper had and when you look at the tie particles as well it wreaks of an engineer. Not to mention bill Mitchell’s description of geeky looking guy. I’ve met some beginners and boy do those guy look geeky, especially to me being younger in comparison like Bill was...anyway just my perspective that I’ve come to form as I continue to examine NORJACK with an open mind from all angles.

If he is an enginner why does he pick a long route even a third grader would know cant be flow by a 727 ? Just a lapse in genius?  Or he's just an idea man? Can't actually do anything - just a good talker or make believe engineer ? 
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5134 on: November 26, 2019, 12:29:23 PM »
What, precisely, were those special fueling instructions?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5135 on: November 26, 2019, 12:34:01 PM »
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I really soaked things up at the conference, had an open mind with everyone’s theories and insights. Here is my big take away and I’m going against Bruce (The Mayor) here respectfully and going to say the evidence points more too cooper fitting the profile of an engineer then MAC-V-Sog or special forces. Cooper wanted to show he was smarter then everybody else, he got off on that. It explains why he wanted to take off with stairs down and then argue it a bit, why he would point out where the oxygen bottles were, why he requested 15 degree flap setting and another big thing is it was reported by Lauren Peterson that cooper gave specific instructions on how to fill up the fuel tanks for this flight config. I asked Gavin captain Scott’s daughters significant other at the conference why do you think he gave specific fueling instructions and he said if he did that it was because he wanted to show he knew what he was doin and it worked because Loren stated in his interview with the WSHS that the mechanics and such working for nwo were impressed by that. He wanted to show off his smarts and or make sure these guys fueled it right, something a know it all would do. That’s typical mentality of engineers. A MVS/special forces guy would of not felt the need be so meticulous and go into such extra technicals details, if he was a commando/special ops/mvs he would of just wanted to get the job done, yes special forces or mvs would of hand the precise planning but this is a next level of detail cooper had and when you look at the tie particles as well it wreaks of an engineer. Not to mention bill Mitchell’s description of geeky looking guy. I’ve met some beginners and boy do those guy look geeky, especially to me being younger in comparison like Bill was...anyway just my perspective that I’ve come to form as I continue to examine NORJACK with an open mind from all angles.

Nicky, you do not have an open mind.  You have a closed mind and an obvious bias against engineers. 

The 727 had a single point refueling system (which was located under the wing) and Cooper didn't give any instructions related to the refueling except to get the job done.  Cooper correctly knew that the airliner could take off with the aft stairs down and unlocked, but the flight crew didn't know that.  Cooper also knew the other things about the 727 performance capability, but he didn't know how to lower the aft stairs. 

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Cooper was on an ego trip.  Instead, he seemed intent on jumping shortly after take off and near Seattle and his actions support that.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5136 on: November 26, 2019, 12:53:23 PM »
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I really soaked things up at the conference, had an open mind with everyone’s theories and insights. Here is my big take away and I’m going against Bruce (The Mayor) here respectfully and going to say the evidence points more too cooper fitting the profile of an engineer then MAC-V-Sog or special forces. Cooper wanted to show he was smarter then everybody else, he got off on that. It explains why he wanted to take off with stairs down and then argue it a bit, why he would point out where the oxygen bottles were, why he requested 15 degree flap setting and another big thing is it was reported by Lauren Peterson that cooper gave specific instructions on how to fill up the fuel tanks for this flight config. I asked Gavin captain Scott’s daughters significant other at the conference why do you think he gave specific fueling instructions and he said if he did that it was because he wanted to show he knew what he was doin and it worked because Loren stated in his interview with the WSHS that the mechanics and such working for nwo were impressed by that. He wanted to show off his smarts and or make sure these guys fueled it right, something a know it all would do. That’s typical mentality of engineers. A MVS/special forces guy would of not felt the need be so meticulous and go into such extra technicals details, if he was a commando/special ops/mvs he would of just wanted to get the job done, yes special forces or mvs would of hand the precise planning but this is a next level of detail cooper had and when you look at the tie particles as well it wreaks of an engineer. Not to mention bill Mitchell’s description of geeky looking guy. I’ve met some beginners and boy do those guy look geeky, especially to me being younger in comparison like Bill was...anyway just my perspective that I’ve come to form as I continue to examine NORJACK with an open mind from all angles.

Nicky, you do not have an open mind.  You have a closed mind and an obvious bias against engineers. 

The 727 had a single point refueling system (which was located under the wing) and Cooper didn't give any instructions related to the refueling except to get the job done.  Cooper correctly knew that the airliner could take off with the aft stairs down and unlocked, but the flight crew didn't know that.  Cooper also knew the other things about the 727 performance capability, but he didn't know how to lower the aft stairs. 

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Cooper was on an ego trip.  Instead, he seemed intent on jumping shortly after take off and near Seattle and his actions support that.

agree - ! Cooper gave refueling instructions?  Where is that coming from?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 12:57:25 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5137 on: November 27, 2019, 02:14:31 PM »
Single point refueling doesn't give the fuel truck operator any balancing options as far as I know. The 727 flight engineer controls tank to tank fuel transfers. Later versions of the L 1011 had an ingenious auto-transfer fuel system that maintained optimal CG trim at all times.

377
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 02:15:03 PM by 377 »
 
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Offline nickyb233

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5138 on: November 28, 2019, 02:49:32 AM »
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I really soaked things up at the conference, had an open mind with everyone’s theories and insights. Here is my big take away and I’m going against Bruce (The Mayor) here respectfully and going to say the evidence points more too cooper fitting the profile of an engineer then MAC-V-Sog or special forces. Cooper wanted to show he was smarter then everybody else, he got off on that. It explains why he wanted to take off with stairs down and then argue it a bit, why he would point out where the oxygen bottles were, why he requested 15 degree flap setting and another big thing is it was reported by Lauren Peterson that cooper gave specific instructions on how to fill up the fuel tanks for this flight config. I asked Gavin captain Scott’s daughters significant other at the conference why do you think he gave specific fueling instructions and he said if he did that it was because he wanted to show he knew what he was doin and it worked because Loren stated in his interview with the WSHS that the mechanics and such working for nwo were impressed by that. He wanted to show off his smarts and or make sure these guys fueled it right, something a know it all would do. That’s typical mentality of engineers. A MVS/special forces guy would of not felt the need be so meticulous and go into such extra technicals details, if he was a commando/special ops/mvs he would of just wanted to get the job done, yes special forces or mvs would of hand the precise planning but this is a next level of detail cooper had and when you look at the tie particles as well it wreaks of an engineer. Not to mention bill Mitchell’s description of geeky looking guy. I’ve met some beginners and boy do those guy look geeky, especially to me being younger in comparison like Bill was...anyway just my perspective that I’ve come to form as I continue to examine NORJACK with an open mind from all angles.

Nicky, you do not have an open mind.  You have a closed mind and an obvious bias against engineers. 

The 727 had a single point refueling system (which was located under the wing) and Cooper didn't give any instructions related to the refueling except to get the job done.  Cooper correctly knew that the airliner could take off with the aft stairs down and unlocked, but the flight crew didn't know that.  Cooper also knew the other things about the 727 performance capability, but he didn't know how to lower the aft stairs. 

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Cooper was on an ego trip.  Instead, he seemed intent on jumping shortly after take off and near Seattle and his actions support that.

What’s the concert evidence that says cooper thought the stairs could be lowered from cockpit? I have been looking for this...my evidence on the refueling is from Loren Peterson in his WSHS interview. He was working for nwo the day of the hijacking, his  Interview is up on shutters dbcoopeforum youtube. He said cooper gave specifics on balancing the tanks the interview pressed him on it and he said he wanted a certain balance of the tanks and the nwo people were impressed by that. I asked Gavin the 727 pilot at the conference and he said they could be balanced and if cooper said that it’s because he wanted to show them he knew what he was doing.
 

Offline nickyb233

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5139 on: November 28, 2019, 02:53:29 AM »
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What, precisely, were those special fueling instructions?

Listen to Loren Petersons interview link below. He didn’t know specifics but says cooper asked for a balance of the tanks.


 

Offline nickyb233

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5140 on: November 28, 2019, 02:55:32 AM »
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Single point refueling doesn't give the fuel truck operator any balancing options as far as I know. The 727 flight engineer controls tank to tank fuel transfers. Later versions of the L 1011 had an ingenious auto-transfer fuel system that maintained optimal CG trim at all times.

377

Gavin said there was away of balancing you didn’t listen to his answer to my exact question about that at the conference Mark?
 

Offline nickyb233

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5141 on: November 28, 2019, 03:18:38 AM »
Mark brought up something really pertinent with his interview with the cooper vortex and at the conference. In towsaws book he says cooper found and examined the packing cards...mark said the only person that would know and or even care to look at packing cards was a skydiver. There hard to find on the rig... Military jumpers didn’t care about packing cards and since they didn’t wouldn’t even know where they were. This is something only a skydiver was interested in and was keen on. Mark says tosaw wouldn’t make anything up and I believe him. How would he even know about packing cards to make it up? This tells me cooper was A: a rec skydiver or B: went to skydivers in doing his homework and due diligence for norjack and they told him to check the packing card and showed him where it was located. This leads me back to my backyard...the town I’ve resided in for the past 11 years. Lake Elsinore, California. Where mark said during the conference was known in the skydiving circles for recruitment from the cia. The fact that a man matching coopers description, smoking Raleigh’s and was asking questions on how to jump out of a jet gives credence to this. I believe to my core cooper was that guy 3 months prior at Elsinore gathering intel. Too big of a coincidence. The name was redacted on the fbi file but I was able to find out who made the report and it was the guy running the DZ at the time by the name of Lyle Cameron. Strangely enough Lyle Cameron was one of the last people jack ruby called before murdering lee Harvey Oswalt. He died in a plane crash in the early 90’s in Honduras where the cia was known to operate. I tracked down his son who said he believed his dad worked for the government and knew the exact same thing about ruby calling his old man, he told me quote what was ruby doing calling my old man. Cameron was a skydiving pioneer on the west coast, ruby was on the east coast on a totally different circle/world... what’s there connection. Anyway he told me he heard that exact same story about the guy in Elsinore not from his dad directly but one of his skydiving buddies. I just repeated the fbi report and he said I heard that same story verbatim. He added one thing though the guys at Elsinore said he was a geeky looking guy. I immediately had flash backs to a Bill Mitchell interview where he used the exact same terminology to describe cooper “Geeky.”
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5142 on: November 28, 2019, 09:48:44 AM »
Peterson is not credible IMO. He gets just about everything wrong. His name is mentioned zero times anywhere...
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5143 on: November 28, 2019, 01:56:46 PM »
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Single point refueling doesn't give the fuel truck operator any balancing options as far as I know. The 727 flight engineer controls tank to tank fuel transfers. Later versions of the L 1011 had an ingenious auto-transfer fuel system that maintained optimal CG trim at all times.

377

Gavin said there was away of balancing you didn’t listen to his answer to my exact question about that at the conference Mark?

As 377 has pointed out, it is the flight engineer on board the aircraft who manages the fuel system and the transfer from one tank to another as well as which tank is being used to feed the engines at a specific time.

Since the aircraft took off with a full load of fuel (or very nearly a full load) there was no need to transfer fuel from one tank to another at that time.

Cooper didn't say a single thing about specific fuel tanks, or balancing fuel tanks, or a specific fuel quantity.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5144 on: November 28, 2019, 02:06:06 PM »
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Mark brought up something really pertinent with his interview with the cooper vortex and at the conference. In towsaws book he says cooper found and examined the packing cards...mark said the only person that would know and or even care to look at packing cards was a skydiver. There hard to find on the rig... Military jumpers didn’t care about packing cards and since they didn’t wouldn’t even know where they were. This is something only a skydiver was interested in and was keen on. Mark says tosaw wouldn’t make anything up and I believe him. How would he even know about packing cards to make it up? This tells me cooper was A: a rec skydiver or B: went to skydivers in doing his homework and due diligence for norjack and they told him to check the packing card and showed him where it was located. This leads me back to my backyard...the town I’ve resided in for the past 11 years. Lake Elsinore, California. Where mark said during the conference was known in the skydiving circles for recruitment from the cia. The fact that a man matching coopers description, smoking Raleigh’s and was asking questions on how to jump out of a jet gives credence to this. I believe to my core cooper was that guy 3 months prior at Elsinore gathering intel. Too big of a coincidence. The name was redacted on the fbi file but I was able to find out who made the report and it was the guy running the DZ at the time by the name of Lyle Cameron. Strangely enough Lyle Cameron was one of the last people jack ruby called before murdering lee Harvey Oswalt. He died in a plane crash in the early 90’s in Honduras where the cia was known to operate. I tracked down his son who said he believed his dad worked for the government and knew the exact same thing about ruby calling his old man, he told me quote what was ruby doing calling my old man. Cameron was a skydiving pioneer on the west coast, ruby was on the east coast on a totally different circle/world... what’s there connection. Anyway he told me he heard that exact same story about the guy in Elsinore not from his dad directly but one of his skydiving buddies. I just repeated the fbi report and he said I heard that same story verbatim. He added one thing though the guys at Elsinore said he was a geeky looking guy. I immediately had flash backs to a Bill Mitchell interview where he used the exact same terminology to describe cooper “Geeky.”

If 377 (Mark) actually said that checking the packing card absolutely meant that Cooper was a skydiver, then he (377) is wrong.  I knew how to check an emergency parachute packing card when I was 16 years old, or maybe even younger.