Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
5 (12.2%)
25% Cooper lived
2 (4.9%)
35% Cooper lived.
1 (2.4%)
50% Cooper lived
9 (22%)
75% Cooper lived
8 (19.5%)
100 Cooper lived
16 (39%)

Total Members Voted: 36

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 320206 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4590 on: January 16, 2019, 03:01:21 PM »
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Tosaw's "raking" of the river bottom near T Bar could have easily missed a body, a rig, or a canopy. Commercial fishermen often drag grapnels and other snagging devices trying to recover lost gear. Even when the exact GPS position of the lost gear is known, the efforts are often unsuccessful. Grapnels and other snagging devices can bounce over or otherwise fail to hook sought objects on the bottom.

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Too bad Tosaw didn't use side scanning sonar gear. Look at how well it images items if the surrounding bottom is uncluttered.

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Tosaw's rake had a huge design error in having the tines extend in only one direction. The rake could easily rotate during descent and drag with the tines up. Straight tines with no curve or barb could easily release a snagged object. Also, in this photo, a lot of tines appear to have broken off.

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377

Tosaw may not have applied hi-tech gear in his Cooper searches, or even fully thought out methods, as a personal choice based on the 'information' at his disposal. I dont think Tosaw ever thought finding Cooper artifacts was going to be very difficult because his focus was on 'information' vs the technical side of the explorations themselves. His idea to roto-till the beach at Tina Bar (in 1985 five years after the FBI excavation and other searchers working the beach multiple times in the interim) is another example.

Some of Tosaw's divers were experienced and had good reputations. Diver, Curtis Rainey, died several years ago and is no longer with us to shed any light on anything; sorry to say.  Its hard to believe that some of these competent guys like Rainy who were young and vital back then are now gone. 

It is my hope there will be info on all of this in the future as we continue to work the case ...

btw, Tosaw included Rataczak in his will. Tosaw and Rataczak had a close personal relationship. Their conversations were vital to everything Tosaw thought and tried. That is a fact.     

I need to post a correction:  Curtis Rainy is not deceased. Of the people who worked with Tosaw it is 'Blake Payne' who is confirmed deceased. Blake passed away in 2017 after an auto accident. Thanks to those who called with the correction - I appreciate the help!

G.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 03:02:06 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4591 on: January 16, 2019, 03:08:09 PM »
That's quite touching that Tosaw included Rataczak in his will. They must have become close friends.

377
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4592 on: January 27, 2019, 05:35:02 PM »
Interesting. Rataczak was also best friends with Himmelsbach, according to Ralph.
 

Offline jayslick141

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4593 on: February 01, 2019, 09:11:42 PM »
sorry but one more question. the 2 back and 2 front chutes. it is my understanding that NH provided 2 civilian chutes however Earl Cossey has been quoted as claiming he provided 1 pioneer and 1 military chute. Is it possible FBI has instrcuted him to make such a claim for one of the following reasons:
1. public would believe DB died and it was foolish for DB to even attempt such a crime. therefore discouraging others from attempting the same crime. Cossey added that it was a personally altered chute for his own specifications and DB wouldnt know how to pull the cord and therefore died

2. if people claim to be DB then FBI can ask what chute did you use. if they claim it was the military chute then FBI can eliminate them quickly.

i do not know if FBI was looking ahead or not and i cant lean either way on this issue. is it also possible DB was never supplied with a "dummy front chute" but FBI claimed this because only the real DB would know the front chute worked fine.
dont know either way but would like your thoughts
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4594 on: February 02, 2019, 12:50:01 AM »
The only way to know if the "dummy chute" was actually a dummy chute would be to open it. That wasn't done on the plane, so it begs the question of how important the chute was, or knowing if it was a legit chute.

Besides, he couldn't attach it to anything so for me it is unlikely that Coop used it as a chute.

It is plausible that he used it to descend from a tree, though.
 

Offline fcastle866

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Clip-On Tie
« Reply #4595 on: February 04, 2019, 09:02:08 PM »
Can anyone shed light on when the FBI announced to the public that they had the clip-on tie? Or when anyone reported on it?  Tosaw's book (1984) says all they had were the cigarette butts, no mention of the tie. Himmelsbach's (1986) does not mention him leaving the tie on the plane either.  Could it be they held onto that part of the story for over 15 years or more?  Could there be more holdbacks?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4596 on: February 05, 2019, 02:52:42 AM »
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The only way to know if the "dummy chute" was actually a dummy chute would be to open it. That wasn't done on the plane, so it begs the question of how important the chute was, or knowing if it was a legit chute.

Besides, he couldn't attach it to anything so for me it is unlikely that Coop used it as a chute.

It is plausible that he used it to descend from a tree, though.

I have to disagree on a couple of very important items here Bruce.

First, if the dummy reserve actually had a red "X" affixed to it (not at all certain if this is true) then Cooper could have easily recognized the dummy reserve as just that. Furthermore, according to Cossey the dummy was not packed as tightly as the genuine reserve and this was apparently noticeable to the touch. I do not know why this would be the case if none of the shroud lines were removed. Perhaps 377 could weigh in on this.

Second, Tina Mucklow testified that she saw Cooper attempting to fit the ransom into one of the reserves. In fact, the size differential between the ransom bank bag and each of the reserves is obvious. In other words, merely observing the bank bag next to the reserves would be enough for Cooper to recognize that he couldn't fit the bank bag into a reserve.

However, Tina testified that this is what she saw. I believe what she actually witnessed was Cooper putting a "portion" of the ransom into the missing dummy reserve. The reason for this is that the bank bag could not be properly secured without removing several of the packets of $20s...it was too full.

Later, I surmise that Cooper, landing near Tena Bar, buried the bank bag along with these excess packets of $20s that were crammed into the dummy reserve, on the beach at Tena Bar. Later, under cover of darkness, Cooper returned to retrieve the bank bag and the loose packets of $20s buried in the sand, however, three of the loose packets were accidentally left behind.

Let us remember Sheridan Peterson's comments about the dummy reserve being daisy-chained inside.
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Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4597 on: February 05, 2019, 12:58:14 PM »
EU wrote: "First, if the dummy reserve actually had a red "X" affixed to it (not at all certain if this is true) then Cooper could have easily recognized the dummy reserve as just that. Furthermore, according to Cossey the dummy was not packed as tightly as the genuine reserve and this was apparently noticeable to the touch. I do not know why this would be the case if none of the shroud lines were removed. Perhaps 377 could weigh in on this."

I never had any trouble spotting dummy reserves at my DZ's training facility as the containers were (sloppily) spray painted red/orange. Normally chest reserves pack up VERY tight. Unless some canopy material, suspension lines or a pilot chute, kicker plate or something else was removed I don't see why they would pack up loose when used as dummy reserve training aid.

377

 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4598 on: February 07, 2019, 09:49:10 AM »
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Later, I surmise that Cooper, landing near Tena Bar, buried the bank bag along with these excess packets of $20s that were crammed into the dummy reserve, on the beach at Tena Bar. Later, under cover of darkness, Cooper returned to retrieve the bank bag and the loose packets of $20s buried in the sand, however, three of the loose packets were accidentally left behind.


How do you explain the numerous shards of decaying $20 bills found in the area by FBI digging?  Some of them were found in sand layers a few feet under the intact bundles.
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4599 on: February 07, 2019, 10:47:07 AM »
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Later, I surmise that Cooper, landing near Tena Bar, buried the bank bag along with these excess packets of $20s that were crammed into the dummy reserve, on the beach at Tena Bar. Later, under cover of darkness, Cooper returned to retrieve the bank bag and the loose packets of $20s buried in the sand, however, three of the loose packets were accidentally left behind.


How do you explain the numerous shards of decaying $20 bills found in the area by FBI digging?  Some of them were found in sand layers a few feet under the intact bundles.

Simply put, it isn't accurate. There is absolutely no evidence supporting a broad and deep shard field. What you have is sloppy, and obviously inaccurate, language from Schroeder (spelling ?) when interviewed by a TV reporter. The reporter himself even states that very few additional money pieces were found, and near the surface, in a later segment. Moreover, they actually display the totality of what was found and it amounts to only a few pieces. Not to mention, these "phantom" shards are not in the FBI's possession.

What we have is a classic case of someone being taken too literally. In fact, Schroeder innocently enough exaggerated the context of what was found at Tena Bar by the FBI. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing--film footage, evidence in FBI's possession, witness testimony from Fazio's, etc--backs up the notion of a shard field that was broad and deep.

What is irrefutable is that three independent packets were found just below the surface with original rubber bands still intact that immediately crumbled when touched. Furthermore, that the precise spot of the money find You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login is approximately 300 feet from the edge of the dredge spoil spread. In light of the facts, to still seriously consider that the money was deposited via the 1974 dredge is simply foolish.
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4600 on: February 07, 2019, 01:28:05 PM »
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Later, I surmise that Cooper, landing near Tena Bar, buried the bank bag along with these excess packets of $20s that were crammed into the dummy reserve, on the beach at Tena Bar. Later, under cover of darkness, Cooper returned to retrieve the bank bag and the loose packets of $20s buried in the sand, however, three of the loose packets were accidentally left behind.


How do you explain the numerous shards of decaying $20 bills found in the area by FBI digging?  Some of them were found in sand layers a few feet under the intact bundles.

They should have brought in oil drillers to see how many thousand feet down they went.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4601 on: February 07, 2019, 02:32:57 PM »
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Later, I surmise that Cooper, landing near Tena Bar, buried the bank bag along with these excess packets of $20s that were crammed into the dummy reserve, on the beach at Tena Bar. Later, under cover of darkness, Cooper returned to retrieve the bank bag and the loose packets of $20s buried in the sand, however, three of the loose packets were accidentally left behind.


How do you explain the numerous shards of decaying $20 bills found in the area by FBI digging?  Some of them were found in sand layers a few feet under the intact bundles.

Simply put, it isn't accurate. There is absolutely no evidence supporting a broad and deep shard field. What you have is sloppy, and obviously inaccurate, language from Schroeder (spelling ?) when interviewed by a TV reporter. The reporter himself even states that very few additional money pieces were found, and near the surface, in a later segment. Moreover, they actually display the totality of what was found and it amounts to only a few pieces. Not to mention, these "phantom" shards are not in the FBI's possession.

What we have is a classic case of someone being taken too literally. In fact, Schroeder innocently enough exaggerated the context of what was found at Tena Bar by the FBI. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing--film footage, evidence in FBI's possession, witness testimony from Fazio's, etc--backs up the notion of a shard field that was broad and deep.

What is irrefutable is that three independent packets were found just below the surface with original rubber bands still intact that immediately crumbled when touched. Furthermore, that the precise spot of the money find You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login is approximately 300 feet from the edge of the dredge spoil spread. In light of the facts, to still seriously consider that the money was deposited via the 1974 dredge is simply foolish.

Your claims are yet to be verified.   ;)

Near what numbered people were the fragments found, and at what depth?

Is your version of the Ingram find site even shown in this photo or is it somewhere off to the left side?

I completely agree - the FBI failed to document this crime scene. Nobody was thinking or in charge! It was chaos. Standard forensic methods for documenting crime scenes were suspended. Our job today however is to recover as much information as possible vs. engaging in social media polemics and brain dead extortion!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 03:01:08 PM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4602 on: February 07, 2019, 03:08:58 PM »
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Later, I surmise that Cooper, landing near Tena Bar, buried the bank bag along with these excess packets of $20s that were crammed into the dummy reserve, on the beach at Tena Bar. Later, under cover of darkness, Cooper returned to retrieve the bank bag and the loose packets of $20s buried in the sand, however, three of the loose packets were accidentally left behind.


How do you explain the numerous shards of decaying $20 bills found in the area by FBI digging?  Some of them were found in sand layers a few feet under the intact bundles.

Simply put, it isn't accurate. There is absolutely no evidence supporting a broad and deep shard field. What you have is sloppy, and obviously inaccurate, language from Schroeder (spelling ?) when interviewed by a TV reporter. The reporter himself even states that very few additional money pieces were found, and near the surface, in a later segment. Moreover, they actually display the totality of what was found and it amounts to only a few pieces. Not to mention, these "phantom" shards are not in the FBI's possession.

What we have is a classic case of someone being taken too literally. In fact, Schroeder innocently enough exaggerated the context of what was found at Tena Bar by the FBI. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing--film footage, evidence in FBI's possession, witness testimony from Fazio's, etc--backs up the notion of a shard field that was broad and deep.

What is irrefutable is that three independent packets were found just below the surface with original rubber bands still intact that immediately crumbled when touched. Furthermore, that the precise spot of the money find You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login is approximately 300 feet from the edge of the dredge spoil spread. In light of the facts, to still seriously consider that the money was deposited via the 1974 dredge is simply foolish.

Your claims are yet to be verified.   ;)

Near what numbered people were the fragments found, and at what depth?

Is your version of the Ingram find site even shown in this photo or is it somewhere off to the left side?

I completely agree - the FBI failed to document this crime scene. Nobody was thinking or in charge! It was chaos. Standard forensic methods for documenting crime scenes were suspended. Our job today however is to recover as much information as possible vs. engaging in social media polemics and brain dead extortion!

To be clear, this isn't my "version" of the money find spot, it is the money find spot. The picture quality is very washed out and poor, that said, it appears to me that the money find spot is approximately spot 8 or 9.
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4603 on: February 08, 2019, 12:28:06 AM »
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Later, I surmise that Cooper, landing near Tena Bar, buried the bank bag along with these excess packets of $20s that were crammed into the dummy reserve, on the beach at Tena Bar. Later, under cover of darkness, Cooper returned to retrieve the bank bag and the loose packets of $20s buried in the sand, however, three of the loose packets were accidentally left behind.


How do you explain the numerous shards of decaying $20 bills found in the area by FBI digging?  Some of them were found in sand layers a few feet under the intact bundles.

Simply put, it isn't accurate. There is absolutely no evidence supporting a broad and deep shard field. What you have is sloppy, and obviously inaccurate, language from Schroeder (spelling ?) when interviewed by a TV reporter. The reporter himself even states that very few additional money pieces were found, and near the surface, in a later segment. Moreover, they actually display the totality of what was found and it amounts to only a few pieces. Not to mention, these "phantom" shards are not in the FBI's possession.

What we have is a classic case of someone being taken too literally. In fact, Schroeder innocently enough exaggerated the context of what was found at Tena Bar by the FBI. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing--film footage, evidence in FBI's possession, witness testimony from Fazio's, etc--backs up the notion of a shard field that was broad and deep.

What is irrefutable is that three independent packets were found just below the surface with original rubber bands still intact that immediately crumbled when touched. Furthermore, that the precise spot of the money find You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login is approximately 300 feet from the edge of the dredge spoil spread. In light of the facts, to still seriously consider that the money was deposited via the 1974 dredge is simply foolish.

Your claims are yet to be verified.   ;)

Near what numbered people were the fragments found, and at what depth?

Is your version of the Ingram find site even shown in this photo or is it somewhere off to the left side?

I completely agree - the FBI failed to document this crime scene. Nobody was thinking or in charge! It was chaos. Standard forensic methods for documenting crime scenes were suspended. Our job today however is to recover as much information as possible vs. engaging in social media polemics and brain dead extortion!

To be clear, this isn't my "version" of the money find spot, it is the money find spot. The picture quality is very washed out and poor, that said, it appears to me that the money find spot is approximately spot 8 or 9.

Mine are not trick questions so no merits or demerits for answers! I use the best pics I have so if you have better, please present them.

The green zero shows your choice for the money find location. Given your prior comments I assume you think all money frags came from the area of the green rectangle near #8 ?

Have you any idea why the southern area of the beach was dug and turned up? I dont have the faintest idea why accept that in the Palmer report it says Palmer wanted a second trench for comparison with the strata found in the Ingram find trench ... but no explanation why the whole area was turned up ??
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4604 on: February 08, 2019, 12:48:59 AM »
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Mine are not trick questions so no merits or demerits for answers! I use the best pics I have so if you have better, please present them.

The green zero shows your choice for the money find location. Given your prior comments I assume you think all money frags came from the area of the green rectangle near #8 ?

Have you any idea why the southern area of the beach was dug and turned up? I dont have the faintest idea why accept that in the Palmer report it says Palmer wanted a second trench for comparison with the strata found in the Ingram find trench ... but no explanation why the whole area was turned up ??

I do not know why the FBI dug up the southern end of the beach so aggressively. That said, this portion was closer to the dredge spoils so perhaps that factored into it.

I pinpoint the money find as a little to the right of the #8 spot closer to the #9 spot. My understanding is that the money find spot is actually on one of the trench lines...most likely the left edge of the green box you've highlighted.

Finally, I do not believe the shards were found in the area of the green box. Rather, I believe they were found quite near the #9 spot where the original money find took place.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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