Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
5 (12.2%)
25% Cooper lived
2 (4.9%)
35% Cooper lived.
1 (2.4%)
50% Cooper lived
9 (22%)
75% Cooper lived
8 (19.5%)
100 Cooper lived
16 (39%)

Total Members Voted: 36

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 320296 times)

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4575 on: January 15, 2019, 01:13:36 PM »
There is a lot of metal to metal contact in the routine (and often rough) handling of packed emergency parachute gear. Buckles scrape against D Rings scrape against etc. There might be a fair amount of cadmium that gets deposited on the fabric surface of a military surplus rig such as an NB 6 or 8. Emergency rigs are almost never washed. I looked at some of my mil surplus gear and there are a lot of scrapes and scratches on the cadmium-plated surfaces of the metal parts. Just clipping the harness webbing connectors to mating fittings when you put on a rig is going to scrape some cadmium off the parts. Emergency rigs are often transported from acro aircraft and stowed at the owner's residence or workplace, as Norman did. The loose straps are usually connected via clips. Abrasion will occur during physical movement.

377
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4576 on: January 15, 2019, 01:21:36 PM »
Jo is now claiming that several Cooper twenties showed up in the Miami area which (in her mind) ties them to the person who purchased Duane's van.
I challenged her on that claim but so far no reply.

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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4577 on: January 15, 2019, 02:28:12 PM »
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Jo is now claiming that several Cooper twenties showed up in the Miami area which (in her mind) ties them to the person who purchased Duane's van.
I challenged her on that claim but so far no reply.

377

Maybe Jo will be mummified for the Smithsonian exhibit! Propped up between Hayden's parachutes and the cardboard cutouts of Ckret and JT!
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 02:30:54 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4578 on: January 15, 2019, 05:18:20 PM »
Jo has been claiming for years that she is in her "last days", yet she endures. I am glad for that.

Sheridan too has proven to be a tough target for the Reaper. Despite many serious ailments he rages on. He is one tough Bulldog.

I turn 70 in a few months. I predict that the case will be solved in my lifetime, but some days I wonder if my optimism is irrational. 

377
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4579 on: January 15, 2019, 05:46:38 PM »
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Jo has been claiming for years that she is in her "last days", yet she endures. I am glad for that.

Sheridan too has proven to be a tough target for the Reaper. Despite many serious ailments he rages on. He is one tough Bulldog.

I turn 70 in a few months. I predict that the case will be solved in my lifetime, but some days I wonder if my optimism is irrational. 

377

You're much younger than I thought you were - that's good. Congrats and enjoy it all.  :) :congrats:
 

Offline Parrotheadvol

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4580 on: January 15, 2019, 05:54:56 PM »
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Jo has been claiming for years that she is in her "last days", yet she endures. I am glad for that.

Sheridan too has proven to be a tough target for the Reaper. Despite many serious ailments he rages on. He is one tough Bulldog.

I turn 70 in a few months. I predict that the case will be solved in my lifetime, but some days I wonder if my optimism is irrational. 

377

I'm just the opposite, always glass half empty. I don't see how the case gets solved at this point. I don't think any Cooper 20's are showing up anywhere, anytime soon. The FBI is obviously done with the case. While someone may come up with an interesting or plausible solution, I doubt the FBI will take notice. I bet someone could hand the solution over to them today and they wouldn't bother with it. But like I said, glass half empty.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4581 on: January 15, 2019, 06:04:41 PM »
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There is a lot of metal to metal contact in the routine (and often rough) handling of packed emergency parachute gear. Buckles scrape against D Rings scrape against etc. There might be a fair amount of cadmium that gets deposited on the fabric surface of a military surplus rig such as an NB 6 or 8. Emergency rigs are almost never washed. I looked at some of my mil surplus gear and there are a lot of scrapes and scratches on the cadmium-plated surfaces of the metal parts. Just clipping the harness webbing connectors to mating fittings when you put on a rig is going to scrape some cadmium off the parts. Emergency rigs are often transported from acro aircraft and stowed at the owner's residence or workplace, as Norman did. The loose straps are usually connected via clips. Abrasion will occur during physical movement.

377

The idea that there was transfer from the parachute to the tie is, in my opinion, complete nonsense (Cooper probably took the tie off to put the rig on, so the two objects likely never touched). That said, I have an NB6, an NB8, and another (unidentified) surplus military chute in my possession. 377 has this equipment as well... Let's test it! See what kind of particles we find on them.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4582 on: January 15, 2019, 06:06:15 PM »
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Jo has been claiming for years that she is in her "last days", yet she endures. I am glad for that.

Sheridan too has proven to be a tough target for the Reaper. Despite many serious ailments he rages on. He is one tough Bulldog.

I turn 70 in a few months. I predict that the case will be solved in my lifetime, but some days I wonder if my optimism is irrational. 

377

I'm just the opposite, always glass half empty. I don't see how the case gets solved at this point. I don't think any Cooper 20's are showing up anywhere, anytime soon. The FBI is obviously done with the case. While someone may come up with an interesting or plausible solution, I doubt the FBI will take notice. I bet someone could hand the solution over to them today and they wouldn't bother with it. But like I said, glass half empty.

Why is the FBI the final arbiter of this case? Their job is to send cases to court. There's no chance of this case going to court, that doesn't mean it can't be solved.
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4583 on: January 15, 2019, 06:49:23 PM »
That's true Andrade. The FBI doesn't have the last word on solving the case.

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Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4584 on: January 15, 2019, 06:55:14 PM »
Andrade wrote: "The idea that there was transfer from the parachute to the tie is, in my opinion, complete nonsense (Cooper probably took the tie off to put the rig on, so the two objects likely never touched)."

Complete nonsense? When we are both guessing as to what happened? It's possible that Cooper spent time examining the rigs with his tie on. It's also possible that he didn't. Both are guesses. Neither is complete nonsense.

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Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4585 on: January 15, 2019, 07:07:58 PM »
Tosaw's "raking" of the river bottom near T Bar could have easily missed a body, a rig, or a canopy. Commercial fishermen often drag grapnels and other snagging devices trying to recover lost gear. Even when the exact GPS position of the lost gear is known, the efforts are often unsuccessful. Grapnels and other snagging devices can bounce over or otherwise fail to hook sought objects on the bottom.

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Too bad Tosaw didn't use side scanning sonar gear. Look at how well it images items if the surrounding bottom is uncluttered.

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Tosaw's rake had a huge design error in having the tines extend in only one direction. The rake could easily rotate during descent and drag with the tines up. Straight tines with no curve or barb could easily release a snagged object. Also, in this photo, a lot of tines appear to have broken off.

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« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 07:14:18 PM by 377 »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4586 on: January 15, 2019, 08:21:54 PM »
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Andrade wrote: "The idea that there was transfer from the parachute to the tie is, in my opinion, complete nonsense (Cooper probably took the tie off to put the rig on, so the two objects likely never touched)."

Complete nonsense? When we are both guessing as to what happened? It's possible that Cooper spent time examining the rigs with his tie on. It's also possible that he didn't. Both are guesses. Neither is complete nonsense.

377

My main point is it's something we can test!
 
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Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4587 on: January 15, 2019, 11:31:16 PM »
Agree.

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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4588 on: January 15, 2019, 11:38:26 PM »
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Tosaw's "raking" of the river bottom near T Bar could have easily missed a body, a rig, or a canopy. Commercial fishermen often drag grapnels and other snagging devices trying to recover lost gear. Even when the exact GPS position of the lost gear is known, the efforts are often unsuccessful. Grapnels and other snagging devices can bounce over or otherwise fail to hook sought objects on the bottom.

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Too bad Tosaw didn't use side scanning sonar gear. Look at how well it images items if the surrounding bottom is uncluttered.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Tosaw's rake had a huge design error in having the tines extend in only one direction. The rake could easily rotate during descent and drag with the tines up. Straight tines with no curve or barb could easily release a snagged object. Also, in this photo, a lot of tines appear to have broken off.

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377

Tosaw may not have applied hi-tech gear in his Cooper searches, or even fully thought out methods, as a personal choice based on the 'information' at his disposal. I dont think Tosaw ever thought finding Cooper artifacts was going to be very difficult because his focus was on 'information' vs the technical side of the explorations themselves. His idea to roto-till the beach at Tina Bar (in 1985 five years after the FBI excavation and other searchers working the beach multiple times in the interim) is another example.

Some of Tosaw's divers were experienced and had good reputations. Diver, Curtis Rainey, died several years ago and is no longer with us to shed any light on anything; sorry to say.  Its hard to believe that some of these competent guys like Rainy who were young and vital back then are now gone. 

It is my hope there will be info on all of this in the future as we continue to work the case ...

btw, Tosaw included Rataczak in his will. Tosaw and Rataczak had a close personal relationship. Their conversations were vital to everything Tosaw thought and tried. That is a fact.     
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 01:03:54 AM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4589 on: January 16, 2019, 12:57:13 PM »
Tosaw was a good guy with an excellent reputation in the legal community for an ability to locate missing heirs. He could find missing people when others failed. I'll bet the contingent/secondary heirs weren't always pleased when he succeeded at locating the primary ones.

Side scan sonar was available in 1971. What a shame neither Tosaw or the FBI employed it. A commercial system was on the market in 1967. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

A team led by Martin Klein at Edgerton, Germeshausen & Grier (later E.G. & G., Inc.) developed the first successful towed, dual-channel commercial side-scan sonar system from 1963 to 1966. Martin Klein is generally considered to be the "father" of commercial side-scan sonar. In 1967, Edgerton used Klein's sonar to help Alexander McKee find Henry VIII's flagship Mary Rose. That same year Klein used the sonar to help archaeologist George Bass find a 2000-year-old ship off the coast of Turkey.

377