Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
4 (10%)
25% Cooper lived
2 (5%)
35% Cooper lived.
1 (2.5%)
50% Cooper lived
9 (22.5%)
75% Cooper lived
8 (20%)
100 Cooper lived
16 (40%)

Total Members Voted: 35

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 315112 times)

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4470 on: December 17, 2018, 10:59:15 AM »
well, there's an example of bias.
You're assuming that posting here is connected to some rational pursuit of something.
Why can't it be irrational?
Just as valid.

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Then what are you doing here?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4471 on: December 17, 2018, 11:02:21 AM »
I think the thing that interested me more than Cooper, was the mystique the FBI kept around the case..
the limited release of info, the amount of bad info that was out there, the attitude that Ckret, a current agent had, that seemed silly.

Now that there's a lot more FBI memos out (there were like none before)...the case actually seems more boring, doesn't it?

It is interesting from an historical viewpoint. I like seeing the old memos that reflect how the FBI apparently used to work.

The FBI must be so better organized now. Computers must have helped a lot, since it's all basically information management.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 11:05:48 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4472 on: December 17, 2018, 11:05:02 AM »
Another fascinating part of the Cooper thing, is seeing how people react to it and process information around it.
It's like watching a machine blow up sometimes...i.e. people process it in weird ways.

You can stick some DBC facts or myths or assumptions in a person's head, and watch them turn into a crazy person.

Makes me ponder how we all tick.
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4473 on: December 17, 2018, 11:58:09 AM »
I started into this to try to expose some douche who appeared to have borrowed Cooper's story for a few decades. Now I see it as an upgrade from crossword puzzles, one similar to playing Asteroids. A brain-teaser that you can't win, just flip the scoreboard and start over.

But there's still that hope there's a hidden level to be found.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 11:59:25 AM by Unsurelock »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4474 on: December 17, 2018, 12:07:13 PM »
it is interesting that random unexpected things do happen.
It's cool how so many FBI memos got released.
Tom's tie work is cool.

so, interesting random things do happen. It's sort of like new levels, like you say.
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4475 on: December 17, 2018, 12:41:57 PM »
Tom's tie work is cost-prohibitively inconclusive.

If you take five ties from random places - one from a bus driver, one off the rack at a store, one from a floor manager at Tektronix, one from a TV repairman, one from a thrift shop, for instance - and test all of them against each other, then test the Cooper tie, then you have  usable results.

Without a control experiment, the case can be made that the lab screwed up. Or the FBI didn't store the evidence properly. Or that all cloth gathers all elements by diffusion or some shit. Anything a defense attorney can sell to a jury.

I still don't know why Tom is willing to discount sulphur and lanthanum as matches and lighter flint from smoking, but virtually nothing else. The guy had a bomb. Real or fake, the components were there, in contact with him like his matches were. His hand was in that briefcase a whole lot, and 50/50 that he used that hand to take off his tie. Casual transfer, they call it.

Yes, some of those particles may come from the owner's work environment. Yes, some of them likely come from matches. But some of them likely come from that gadget he put together. This tie has layers.

Figure out which come from the "bomb," subtract them from the McCrone data, and the work environment view sharpens.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 12:42:48 PM by Unsurelock »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4476 on: December 17, 2018, 01:48:33 PM »
I agree that Tom seems to have created more confusion.
I don't understand how I'm supposed to deal with the two bits of work: Tom's initial work (described only anecdotally) and the McCrone excel files. Is one more correct, invalidating the other? Or are they both correct, and somehow I have to accept both?


I also don't understand how the McCrone excel files led to all the phosphor claims.
The particle counts and compounds there raise the question of "what particle counts and exact types existed in Tom's initial work? How did Tom decide XYZ means ABC? etc."

Maybe I'm just dense, but the whole thing doesn't seem like good science to me.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4477 on: December 17, 2018, 02:51:37 PM »
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I agree that Tom seems to have created more confusion.
I don't understand how I'm supposed to deal with the two bits of work: Tom's initial work (described only anecdotally) and the McCrone excel files. Is one more correct, invalidating the other? Or are they both correct, and somehow I have to accept both?


I also don't understand how the McCrone excel files led to all the phosphor claims.
The particle counts and compounds there raise the question of "what particle counts and exact types existed in Tom's initial work? How did Tom decide XYZ means ABC? etc."

Maybe I'm just dense, but the whole thing doesn't seem like good science to me.

What do you think the McCrone work cost? Whatever it is Tom didn't opt for it right from the start. Now there are two sets of results to reconcile.  And Tom not even available! Maybe the FBI should have asked Geoff Gray to do this work, at his kitchen sink?

But nothing anyone can do about any of this. SNAFU.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 03:03:26 PM by georger »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4478 on: December 17, 2018, 05:38:20 PM »
I think the McCrone work cost exactly one television episode worth of lucky break.

I think it's as good science as this case will allow. I also trust that the CS team sees more than I do.
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4479 on: December 17, 2018, 10:32:35 PM »
One item of note - TK has pointed out that there were no nitrogen-based particles found on the tie, denoting no traces of explosive. Dynamite included. So either dynamite sticks are  made so well that they leave no transmissible traces of their contents, or DBC was carrying a fake boom boom.

Snow, I'm liking your idea of testing soldier's clothing even better now. Maybe we hit a pyrotechnician with some quick and easy chem tests? New Year's is fast approaching.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4480 on: December 17, 2018, 11:35:24 PM »
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One item of note - TK has pointed out that there were no nitrogen-based particles found on the tie, denoting no traces of explosive. Dynamite included. So either dynamite sticks are  made so well that they leave no transmissible traces of their contents, or DBC was carrying a fake boom boom.

Snow, I'm liking your idea of testing soldier's clothing even better now. Maybe we hit a pyrotechnician with some quick and easy chem tests? New Year's is fast approaching.

and who will do the particle testing?  :))
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4481 on: December 18, 2018, 12:10:51 AM »
I am made of particles, so I am qualificated.
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4482 on: December 18, 2018, 12:57:21 PM »
I've urged Tom to get a sample from Norman's rig that is now in the archives of the Washington History Museum. Norman ran a machine shop. Norman did work for Boeing. The rigs were stored at Norman's shop. Cooper's tie may have picked up the exotic particles from Norman's rigs as he examined then and dragged his tie across their exterior.

I have loaned my Cooper twenty to Tom in the hopes that he can find something interesting on it. It's a real long shot but probably the only opportunity that we will have to test a Cooper bill. I told him its OK to do destructive testing if it is necessary and involves only a tiny sample of the bill. Fingers crossed.

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Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4483 on: December 18, 2018, 01:16:51 PM »
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One item of note - TK has pointed out that there were no nitrogen-based particles found on the tie, denoting no traces of explosive. Dynamite included. So either dynamite sticks are  made so well that they leave no transmissible traces of their contents, or DBC was carrying a fake boom boom.

Snow, I'm liking your idea of testing soldier's clothing even better now. Maybe we hit a pyrotechnician with some quick and easy chem tests? New Year's is fast approaching.

Also of note, nobody sucks on half a pack of smokes an elbow length away from a roll of dynamite.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4484 on: December 18, 2018, 02:31:42 PM »
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One item of note - TK has pointed out that there were no nitrogen-based particles found on the tie, denoting no traces of explosive. Dynamite included. So either dynamite sticks are  made so well that they leave no transmissible traces of their contents, or DBC was carrying a fake boom boom.

Snow, I'm liking your idea of testing soldier's clothing even better now. Maybe we hit a pyrotechnician with some quick and easy chem tests? New Year's is fast approaching.

Also of note, nobody sucks on half a pack of smokes an elbow length away from a roll of dynamite.

Maybe, maybe not. The mere fact of hijacking a plane almost defines a 'risk taker'. The whole exercise orbits around risk management. That's why they wanted him off the plane and searched for the bomb when they thought he was gone!

I am "sure" DC would have had an explanation for why he could smoke around a bomb - why didn't Tina or somebody ask him about that?  :nono: 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 02:34:46 PM by georger »