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Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
5 (11.9%)
25% Cooper lived
2 (4.8%)
35% Cooper lived.
1 (2.4%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (23.8%)
75% Cooper lived
8 (19%)
100 Cooper lived
16 (38.1%)

Total Members Voted: 37

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 347264 times)

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4395 on: November 28, 2018, 10:13:22 AM »
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if silver nitrate was on the bills in 1971, they would have turned black very quickly.

(before 1980)

Are you saying you think there were black bills in 1980?

Possible, if Brian saw those darkened Bills before giving money to FBI..

even after Kaye found Silver Nitrate, there was no confirmation from the FBI that they had used it for prints.

"Ingram recalls how the bills were stuck together. Some pieces were larger than others. Others  had darkened in color. "They still had rubber bands on them," Ingram says. "I remember picking them up and the rubber band didn't really break, but it kind of turned to powder. You could tell they hadn't been touched."

NOTE: His quote "the rubber band" and "it"...  singular.   Maybe there was only 1 rubber band, needs clarity.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 10:43:16 AM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4396 on: November 28, 2018, 10:57:33 AM »
Here's new info:
Apparently witnesses saw Cooper write with the black felt pen. Unclear if it was the original note.
Background: description of the note given to Flo:
it was unlined white paper, in a "letter-sized" envelope. Whatever that means

The following is from the 5/30/72 FBI summary memo. attached one page

It has an interesting description of where they lifted the prints. Remember the note handed Flo had was described as black felt pen, with block and cursive writing.

On this found "notebook paper", they say they say "with printing". Sounds like block printing.

It seems like when they lifted the prints, they didn't bother checking whether the writing style on the notebook paper matched the description of the writing style on the note.

Also interesting, is that it was a NWA employee that found the paper with felt pen writing on it, not the FBI.

Sounds like there was writing on the magazine too..I guess that's why they thought the magazine might matter.

Seems to me, that it's very unlikely the prints they lifted here were Cooper's.
Notebook paper sounds lined to me, also.

Another interesting thing: They seemingly list 4 people who saw Cooper write with a felt pen? Did people see Cooper write the original note with a felt pen on the plane?
Apparently that's what this implies?

So Cooper got the paper and envelope somewhere and wrote on the plane?


Magazine and Notebook Paper
<redacted> Northwest Airlires, in a search conducted November 25, 1972, of victim airplane, found parts of a magazine and a piece of notebook paper with printing thereon made by a felt marking pen. The Bureau has examined these papers and has found 24 latent fingerprints and 5 latent palm prints of value. It is recommended that since both witnesses <redacted> and <redacted> and the <redacted> and <redacted> observed the unsub write with a felt pen, the notebook paper and magazine parts printing be shown to these witnesses. This should be done to determine if the printing is similar to unsub's and if the felt color and characteristics were similar to unsub's.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4397 on: November 28, 2018, 10:59:29 AM »
Why would Cooper recover the note he gave to Flo, but leave writing on other paper or magazine?

Doesn't make sense.

I hadn't realized they targeted paper/magazine because of black felt pen writing.

As far as I can tell, this is the only source of prints they have. And it seems unlikely to be Cooper's ?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4398 on: November 28, 2018, 02:35:11 PM »
Here's some detail about the chase planes, from Clifford Ammerman who was working radar control at Sea-Tac the night of the hijack. He was employed by the FAA.
I don't think Clifford Ammerman has been named before.

Ammerman controlled the F-106's that trailed Flight 305. It seems like the T-33 arrived just north of portland, and the F-106's left the immediate trail then to the T-33.

Notably, the F-106's weren't getting control from the SAGE center.

It's interesting the T-33/F-106 handoff occurred just north of Portland, because it means maybe they were switching the trailing planes around at the time Cooper jumped?

in this book

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Here's how Ackermann describes it.

He talks to the 727 pilot and learns of the hijack. Then contacted McChord, which launched two F-106's

He kept them five miles in trail, 1000 ft higher than 305.

Radar on the F-106's was effective only 20 degrees either side of their nose. They had to S turn to stay behind 305,  so if the turns exceeded that, they couldn't keep radar lock on 305.

Just north of Portland, Oregon Air National Guard T-33 joined.

Ammerman then turned the F-106's to the east of the projected track of 305 and then south to parallel the route.

They climbed to 20,000 feet to save fuel. At the same time he positioned the T-33 to 1000 feet above and five miles in trail at a matching speed.

F-106's were still faster than 305, so they did an occasional "orbit"

Military planes used UHF radio, civilian VHF.

Ammerman had to stand up and turn off the VHF while talking to the military on UHF..instructions were going on both frequencies at the same time.

T-33 trailed 305 to Eugene, but then was low on fuel. F-106's returned to McChord because low on fuel also.

Ammerman on radar control, followed 305  from Seattle to south of Medford, OR

Later when 305 entered another air traffic control center, a C-130 picked up the trail at Red Bluff, CA

There was a gap in tracking between Eugene and Red Bluff, in terms of chase planes.


« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 02:38:14 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4399 on: November 28, 2018, 02:49:21 PM »
Snow, put your research talents to work and see if those McChord F 106s had IRST, Infra-Red Search and Track gear. During my time at Hughes I spoke with F 106 pilots who lamented its (in their opinion premature) removal from some 106s. They said it was super useful in finding then tracking targets from behind as jet exhausts were quite hot and easily detected at significant distances. Bet they didn't have the IRST units. The IRST search track were considered obsolete in light of the modern MA-1-SAGE ground radar controlled intercept system, which proved to be very good when it worked but it had a MTBF that was ridiculously short. I heard something about IRST being removed from some but not all F 106s.

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It was a C 130 Herc "trash hauler" that found the NW 727. Bet the fighter jocks never lived that down.

377
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4400 on: November 28, 2018, 03:44:49 PM »
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if silver nitrate was on the bills in 1971, they would have turned black very quickly.

(before 1980)

Are you saying you think there were black bills in 1980?

Possible, if Brian saw those darkened Bills before giving money to FBI..

even after Kaye found Silver Nitrate, there was no confirmation from the FBI that they had used it for prints.

"Ingram recalls how the bills were stuck together. Some pieces were larger than others. Others  had darkened in color. "They still had rubber bands on them," Ingram says. "I remember picking them up and the rubber band didn't really break, but it kind of turned to powder. You could tell they hadn't been touched."

NOTE: His quote "the rubber band" and "it"...  singular.   Maybe there was only 1 rubber band, needs clarity.


More... black bills at TBAR....

Bruce from DZ, the Fazio description..

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"Prior, though, in his air-conditioned office Al told me he saw a lot of shards of Cooper twenties in all kinds of shapes and sizes, discolored and black, and in various states of decomposition."

 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4401 on: November 28, 2018, 04:05:21 PM »
I had apparently missed this in Bruce's T Bar visit writeup: "I had a wonderful chat with Al Fazio and his younger brother Richard, who by the way was an electronics guy for the USAF in NPK, Thailand, 68-69, monitoring hi-tech surveillance stuff dropped upon the Ho Chi Minh Trail. "

That "hi-tech surveillance stuff dropped upon the Ho Chi Minh Trail" was probably part of the Igloo White program, another hobby interest of mine.

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I have, in my collection, several Igloo White sensors including one that looks like animal feces but contains a seismic sensor, batteries and a VHF transmitter. Troop movements triggered a coded transmission to orbiting aircraft. Another one looks like a jungle plant.

I still wonder about the so-called shard field. How many shards? Vertical and horizontal dispersion? Were any SNs seen on shards?  If so do SNs mean there were more packets on T bar or were all shards from the discovered packets? 

377
 
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Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4402 on: November 28, 2018, 05:40:08 PM »
Author and TV show host Brad Meltzer wrote this on his Facebook page in 2011. What new evidence was he referring to? Any guesses?

Brad Meltzer
August 2, 2011 ·
For those asking about DB Cooper, here's what I've heard: Apparently, the FBI contacted one of our big sources on the Decoded episode. He was asked for some evidence a few weeks ago. Also, the FBI have a NEW piece of evidence none of us have ever seen. That's what made them rule out our guy. Still not sure who they are looking at, but yes, DB, I love the idea of the FBI watching Decoded."

377
 

Offline Parrotheadvol

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4403 on: November 28, 2018, 06:19:35 PM »
Wasn’t that about the time that LD became a known suspect? Maybe he was referring to something having to do with that.
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4404 on: November 28, 2018, 06:29:00 PM »
The LD case really didn't have a relevant "piece of evidence", just Marla's unbounded energy and charisma.

I was sorry she didn't make it to CooperCon 2018.

377
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4405 on: November 28, 2018, 06:31:20 PM »
It was Kenny....special agent Jarvis said so... :rofl:
 

Offline Parrotheadvol

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4406 on: November 28, 2018, 06:47:33 PM »
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It was Kenny....special agent Jarvis said so... :rofl:

Damn. I keep forgetting about that. Why are we even here, lol?
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4407 on: November 28, 2018, 07:21:14 PM »
If KC turns out to be Cooper, Blevins will hit the jackpot. I am not betting on it but it's not impossible.

Why skyjack your employer's airliner? Many less risky alternatives existed. To me, it would be insane for an NW FLIGHT CREW member to skyjack a company plane. After the crime was completed and the sketch was released, all NW employees would be looking at it. Too much chance of being recognized.

Paratroopers of KC's era had zero freefall training. The gear is different, no main ripcord. Doesn't mean Kenny couldn't have handled the jump, however. Paratroopers like to get immediate deployment. They don't know how to do a stable freefall.  Immediate deployment is just the ticket for a safe high speed 727 exit as seen in the SAT static line 727 jumps over Korat Thailand.

377

« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 07:22:18 PM by 377 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4408 on: November 28, 2018, 07:51:12 PM »
Robert is funny, he will tell you that not many employee's know each other because of rotations and then says Kenny was scared to go to company events as if years later people would scream out "it's him, it's DB Cooper"  :rofl:

It would be a lot safer to hijack another airline..but it's "the grudge" with all of the strikes and his low pay that pushed him over the edge.

I'm guessing Kenny was probably a really nice guy and wouldn't like his name being smeared like this. especially by his family jumping in casting more blame.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4409 on: November 28, 2018, 11:01:11 PM »
Interesting.

This Salem, OR paper on 11/25/71 had some info from FBI agents that they were looking for Cooper around Portland,
with the idea that they thought he jumped around Portland. It was based on crew statements after they landed in Reno.

"An FBI spokesman says the speculation is based on the reaction of the plane when it passed over Portland"
..based on statements by the plane's crew.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 11:01:59 PM by snowmman »