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another 302 conflict..

Both dated Dec 1/71

Re: takeoff airstairs lowered

Tina - Cooper "Yes, they can, but the cockpit can put it down after they get airborne."

and

Tina - Cooper "Yes you can, but that's alright, we can lower it later."


The first suggests Cooper incorrectly believed that the cockpit controlled the Airstairs the second does not...

If the second was true then Cooper wasn't incorrect..

Yes, standard disparity.

One would think that they would be very careful to use the precise language relayed when filling out such reports. Obviously such subtle differences can be critically important.

I suppose I shouldn't assume that the FBI messed this up. It is entirely possible that Tina herself couldn't remember the precise terminology.

The agent's conduct interviews, usually in pairs, one take notes. The 302's are summaries of the notes.. barely better than hearsay.

FBI "misunderstanding",,,

"lowering of the door and the stairs were accomplished in flight"

These guys are professionals so it's obviously much better then hearsay. Point is that some details get misinterpreted which can be problematic. You regularly see this type of thing in newspaper articles...even the recent one about my Sheridan Peterson work in The Columbian had some details wrong.

The larger takeaway is that Cooper knew the airstairs could be deployed which is very important.

Yes, he knew/believed they could be deployed...  the possible inference error was that he thought the cockpit controlled the airstairs

I have been researching the Airlift Command operations in Vietnam, C-130's and C-7 Caribou's used for drops could take off with rear open. Cooper may have been involved there in some capacity and not specifically the 727. Though Air America had the 727, C-130 and Caribou's.

As you know I believe I know who Cooper was and how he acquired his knowledge.

For those who think differently, the obvious question one would need to ask is how it is that Cooper knew that the "commercial" version of the 727 could deploy the airstairs in flight. Just because the military was flying the 727 for Air America--which presumably was dramatically altered--certainly doesn't make it obvious that a commercial airliner has the same capabilities.

Also, there are other details about flap settings, oxygen bottles, titanium particles, familiarity with Seattle and the like that have to be explained. Not to mention, the physical parameters of any suspect have to jive with those described by the witnesses.

Finally, there are alibis that have to add up and personality traits that need to make sense. Often people focus on one aspect--for example experience regarding skydiving, or commando guy in Vietnam--and ignore everything else that is also part of the story.

SP aside,

If "Cooper" was involved in the Airlift Command he could infer that knowledge to a commercial 727.. he would also have airplane configuration knowledge for drops/jumps..

Also, in the mid 60's there was a published media report of the 727 drop tests in the US.

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Also, in the mid 60's there was a published media report of the 727 drop tests in the US.

Can you re-post the media report?

Magazine reference.. 727 flown airstairs down

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Newspaper report/image..  727 drop test

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Also, in the mid 60's there was a published media report of the 727 drop tests in the US.

Can you re-post the media report?

Magazine reference.. 727 flown airstairs down

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Newspaper report/image..  727 drop test

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So apparently there was a one sentence reference to the aircraft eing flown with the airstairs deployed, some media coverage of items being dropped from a 727 with the airstairs apparently removed, and the Air America stuff which also has the airstairs removed.

All of this is obscure, but out there nonetheless. My concern would be how Cooper knew the airstairs could be deployed once airborne...no squat switch. This still isn't obvious even though there is the passing reference to the jet being flown with the airstairs deployed in the one article.

What he thought or knew is unknowable now. He apparently didnt know. What he did do was ask the crew in the cockpit to do it for him. That lead to Tina being asked to do it for him in the rear. Then it fell to him to do it for himself. That shows an ability to adapt vs having concrete experiential knowledge. 

Normally you test a person's knowledge by demonstration of knowledge, as in a test. On that premise Cooper failed the stair lowering test. He went straight to the cockpit crew for the task. Do stairs in any other 727 ever made lower from the cockpit (only)? He seemed so certain about other matters like the location of Tacoma as they were circling, the distance to Tacoma, etc. There's a fairly long list of things he claimed certainty of. But he failed the stair lowering test! What was his paradigm for his presumed knowledge about the stairs - some other plane, personal experience of some kind, ... ??  The stair lowering was very specific on that plane, like 'where is Tacoma'. You either knew or you didn't know! He professed to know and issued a command on that basis. Or was he just expressing an attitude vs concrete experience based knowledge?   

Anybody know how to get military records for a deceased vet?

after 1956 you need to be next of kin,,

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limited info here..

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If the vet was born more than 100 years ago, you don't have to be next of kin. Short of that, you're extremely limited it what they will give you. I've gotten both from the national archives, and one will have maybe 50 detailed pages, the other maybe 3 pages of name rank and serial number crap.

I suppose everything goes in this thread now.

I, the one who is not snowmman,  find the attached memo dated 10/4/72 shocking.

One, that the two teams of people existed and FBI looked at them (airstairs test/skydivers club)
Two, that the FBI f*ed it up, because someone told them the Boeing Skydivers Club didn't exist after 1960 or 1961. We know that's not true, from the Sheridan Boeing article.
Three, that ckret claimed back in the day, that this kind of stuff was well investigated, when it wasn't.
Fourth, that even with the limited look at the Skydivers Club, they mention only looking at "officers" ?

There's another memo where they talk about "engineers" on the airstairs test team. I wonder if there were more than just engineers. It's so easy to get focused on a subclass of people, when really they should be focusing on information flow.

I have a question.

What are "burp sacks"?

They are mentioned for both back rigs, in the first FBI memo from 11_25_71
Not mentioned after that.

see bottom of page 1 and bottom of page 2 below
same memo says there are no "emergency bleepers" in the rigs. I take that to be FBI tracking beacons.

Could the "burp sacks" be some kind of exploding dye pack from the FBI put in the back rigs?
I don't think it's a skydiving term. Does anyone know.

I have to reduce resolution from optimal to meet the posting requirements here, but jpgs should be readable

I suppose everything goes in this thread now.

Actually, this could easily fall under "Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case"