Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1406727 times)

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2730 on: June 30, 2018, 01:36:07 PM »
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Bruce and Georger
Most of these ideas I don't think much of. I think people keep adding to and make this much more complicated than it is or was. If we knew the real story it would be much simpler and less enthusiastic than we may now think it was. A guy bailed out the bottom of a plane and several others did the same after he did of.course it's just nobody knows who this guy is. So back to my question. Even people kind of people etc have been listed but someone knows them so how could it be nobody can I d him.  What is a scenario this could happen

Defender-Three different sketches over a period of a year or so.  Initial, A-Bing Crosby, and B.  None had the turkey gobble that Bill Mitchell discussed.  All three look like completely different people.  No internet, no YouTube, no real pictures of the man.  You may seen the composite one time over your morning coffee.  Thanksgiving 1971 rolls into Xmas and then into 1972, the Olympics, Vietnam, all of it.  People went on with their lives.  They may never have even seen any of the composites, and if they did, they might have seen one and not the other.  These are composites, not exacts, so the sketch may not have jumped out at them.  It is more the reverse, you find a suspect and then the composite might make sense, not the other way around.  This could have been your father and you might not have seen what was right in front of your eyes, because you did not suspect he could do it.  The only picture of major suspects that even comes close to matching is Kenny Christiansen, but this does not stop people from forcing a picture to match the composite (Rackstraw).  If this was a regular person, then no one would even think to compare pictures, assuming they even saw the composites.  However, chances are someone knew, and they just did not say.  Who is going to turn in their father/brother/brother in law/etc, especially if there were accomplices?  The latest buzz about Rackstraw has already subsided, so who is left?  Just us on this forum.  If Flo, Tina, and Bill Mitchell pass before this is solved, then no one will be able to confirm it.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2731 on: June 30, 2018, 03:07:50 PM »
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Bruce and Georger
Most of these ideas I don't think much of. I think people keep adding to and make this much more complicated than it is or was. If we knew the real story it would be much simpler and less enthusiastic than we may now think it was. A guy bailed out the bottom of a plane and several others did the same after he did of.course it's just nobody knows who this guy is. So back to my question. Even people kind of people etc have been listed but someone knows them so how could it be nobody can I d him.  What is a scenario this could happen

Most things happen or fall on the normal bell curve of distribution. Cooper probably falls somewhere on this distribution. The central problem of finding Cooper in 1971 was (a) lack of personally defining data like prints and dna, (b) the lack of coordinated data bases to search, and (c) the lack of coordinated computer systems to do the searching. In other words, "the system" socalled, was insufficient to solve the crime by identifying one particular individual from the masses living on Earth. It's as simple as that.

The hyperbolic Bruce Smith, who throws around all kinds of technical terms he doesnt know the meaning of and has never-ever worked with - would have you believe Cooper exists somewhere out at the extremes of the normal distribution. People with a similar bent are focusing on special skills or attributes (like rare particles on the tie) or parachuting skills. But, in 1971 the ability to search such small populations was hampered by the same facts listed above. Agents had to be sent to parachute clubs etc looking for Cooper and those searches failed. Searchable data bases including people with specialised skills did not exist.

Until something concrete turns up, the best chance of locating Cooper today is going to be through mtdna or finger print traits as more inclusive data bases come into existence. It is far more likely that a family of 'similar traits' might be identified first, and then that population could be searched further. But, that population could be a fairly large population. Specific identifying traits must be isolated first, before Cooper himself is ever going to be identified. One person here trying to develop identifying traits is Flyjack.  The rest of us are merely spectators.

 :chr2:
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 03:43:55 PM by georger »
 

Offline MEYDC

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2732 on: June 30, 2018, 03:44:28 PM »
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Bruce and Georger
Most of these ideas I don't think much of. I think people keep adding to and make this much more complicated than it is or was. If we knew the real story it would be much simpler and less enthusiastic than we may now think it was. A guy bailed out the bottom of a plane and several others did the same after he did of.course it's just nobody knows who this guy is. So back to my question. Even people kind of people etc have been listed but someone knows them so how could it be nobody can I d him.  What is a scenario this could happen
Flo thought Kenny looked a little bit like Cooper she was the only one who thought that. Mitchell who sat across Cooper thought Rackstraw looked like Cooper however he when he tried to identify him from the picture called him McCoy. To me, if Tina identified a person as Cooper it would be more reliable because she spent the most time with him.

Defender-Three different sketches over a period of a year or so.  Initial, A-Bing Crosby, and B.  None had the turkey gobble that Bill Mitchell discussed.  All three look like completely different people.  No internet, no YouTube, no real pictures of the man.  You may seen the composite one time over your morning coffee.  Thanksgiving 1971 rolls into Xmas and then into 1972, the Olympics, Vietnam, all of it.  People went on with their lives.  They may never have even seen any of the composites, and if they did, they might have seen one and not the other.  These are composites, not exacts, so the sketch may not have jumped out at them.  It is more the reverse, you find a suspect and then the composite might make sense, not the other way around.  This could have been your father and you might not have seen what was right in front of your eyes, because you did not suspect he could do it.  The only picture of major suspects that even comes close to matching is Kenny Christiansen, but this does not stop people from forcing a picture to match the composite (Rackstraw).  If this was a regular person, then no one would even think to compare pictures, assuming they even saw the composites.  However, chances are someone knew, and they just did not say.  Who is going to turn in their father/brother/brother in law/etc, especially if there were accomplices?  The latest buzz about Rackstraw has already subsided, so who is left?  Just us on this forum.  If Flo, Tina, and Bill Mitchell pass before this is solved, then no one will be able to confirm it.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2733 on: June 30, 2018, 04:09:35 PM »
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Bruce if it was a group deal what was the purpose....


I'm not saying NORJAK was a group deal. I am suggesting that "Dan Cooper" may have come from a group that has minimal interaction with others and has a culture of silence and secrecy. Think Mafia.

Envision Dan Cooper coming home on Nov. 25 or 26th. His family and friends ask: "Where ya been?" Answer: "On a job." In certain neighborhoods everyone knows not to ask any more questions after that.

Look at me and our recent experience during a 20-day period when I was in NYC and not posting here. Dozens of Cooper sleuths didn't know where I was, nor could they find me - and I wasn't hiding! I was having lunch with my mommy! So, imagine a group of people who prefer to live like that on a regular basis - minimal interaction, low social visibility, enforced silence, developed behaviors designed not to attract attention from others, especially cops and social workers.

Could Cooper have lived in an environment like that?
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2734 on: June 30, 2018, 04:23:24 PM »
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Bruce if it was a group deal what was the purpose....


I'm not saying NORJAK was a group deal. I am suggesting that "Dan Cooper" may have come from a group that has minimal interaction with others and has a culture of silence and secrecy. Think Mafia.

Envision Dan Cooper coming home on Nov. 25 or 26th. His family and friends ask: "Where ya been?" Answer: "On a job." In certain neighborhoods everyone knows not to ask any more questions after that.

Look at me and our recent experience during a 20-day period when I was in NYC and not posting here. Dozens of Cooper sleuths didn't know where I was, nor could they find me - and I wasn't hiding! I was having lunch with my mommy! So, imagine a group of people who prefer to live like that on a regular basis - minimal interaction, low social visibility, enforced silence, developed behaviors designed not to attract attention from others, especially cops and social workers.

Could Cooper have lived in an environment like that?

You could search every public toilet on the planet for any given date to see if Cooper was there and "who" he was!  Plenty of dna and finger prints there! :rofl:

More to the point, what data systems were searched by the FBI etal say 1971-1985, using 'what' computer search systems - where? Nobody can answer that question. !  Nobody even knows what data base searches were done and how?  The military? Corporations?  US Labor Dept DOT data base searches? etc etc etc ... give us the facts and just the facts, mam. 

If the 302's released to date represent say 80% of all the searches that were done, and the methods used, then the search for DB Cooper was tantamount to a restricted search, that bore no fruit. Those searches relied (more or less) on a very specialised theory of the case, that Cooper had high tech skills, and those searches failed. So how would one adjust his or her search parameters next - looking where for what?  That is where the problem may exist. We know next to nothing about this important history of the case. 
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 04:52:24 PM by georger »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2735 on: July 01, 2018, 07:07:24 PM »
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Bruce if it was a group deal what was the purpose....


I'm not saying NORJAK was a group deal. I am suggesting that "Dan Cooper" may have come from a group that has minimal interaction with others and has a culture of silence and secrecy. Think Mafia.

Envision Dan Cooper coming home on Nov. 25 or 26th. His family and friends ask: "Where ya been?" Answer: "On a job." In certain neighborhoods everyone knows not to ask any more questions after that.

Look at me and our recent experience during a 20-day period when I was in NYC and not posting here. Dozens of Cooper sleuths didn't know where I was, nor could they find me - and I wasn't hiding! I was having lunch with my mommy! So, imagine a group of people who prefer to live like that on a regular basis - minimal interaction, low social visibility, enforced silence, developed behaviors designed not to attract attention from others, especially cops and social workers.

Could Cooper have lived in an environment like that?

You could search every public toilet on the planet for any given date to see if Cooper was there and "who" he was!  Plenty of dna and finger prints there! :rofl:

More to the point, what data systems were searched by the FBI etal say 1971-1985, using 'what' computer search systems - where? Nobody can answer that question. !  Nobody even knows what data base searches were done and how?  The military? Corporations?  US Labor Dept DOT data base searches? etc etc etc ... give us the facts and just the facts, mam. 

If the 302's released to date represent say 80% of all the searches that were done, and the methods used, then the search for DB Cooper was tantamount to a restricted search, that bore no fruit. Those searches relied (more or less) on a very specialised theory of the case, that Cooper had high tech skills, and those searches failed. So how would one adjust his or her search parameters next - looking where for what?  That is where the problem may exist. We know next to nothing about this important history of the case.

Data could solve this.  But there is something not right about just data being used to solve this.  There should be more, like old time detective work, research, luck, etc. 

On the data piece.  Does it exist? Is it in a database, or is it on paper copies in some garage somewhere?  Find a list of who traded in Raleigh cigarette coupons, cross reference that with white/Hispanic/American Indian males aged 35-55, who served in the military, maybe parachutists, who skydived between 1970 and 1971, USPA might have that, who traveled to the Seattle area, etc. etc.  Cross check that with names of people the FBI talked to.  Can it be done? Yes.  But you need access to the data, you need to find the data, clean it, consolidate it, then find someone who can work with it.  All of this is easier said than done.  A team of people with the right jobs/skills could do it.  Safe to say this method was not used in 1971, maybe it has never been used.  In 20 years this might be easy, but for now we probably are reliant on the DNA, fingerprints, witness ID of the suspect.
 

Offline dice

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2736 on: July 01, 2018, 07:32:01 PM »
Quote
traded in Raleigh cigarette coupons

Fcastle, please elaborate on this.  What are these coupons???  was this a cigarette ration to the GIs?.
Purdue 38  Iowa 36
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2737 on: July 01, 2018, 09:40:24 PM »
see photo
 

Offline dice

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2738 on: July 01, 2018, 10:07:44 PM »
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see photo
Thanks, but I still don't know what are we talking about here.. Six million coupons daily?  Is this instead a rebate after purchasing cigs and mailing in a proof of purchase? Still confused
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2739 on: July 01, 2018, 10:39:47 PM »
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see photo
Thanks, but I still don't know what are we talking about here.. Six million coupons daily?  Is this instead a rebate after purchasing cigs and mailing in a proof of purchase? Still confused


They were like stamps (S&H green stamps) you could get merchandise with them...

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« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 10:42:20 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2740 on: July 01, 2018, 10:57:25 PM »
also had a "Mexican" version of Raleigh's
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2741 on: July 01, 2018, 11:26:08 PM »
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see photo
Thanks, but I still don't know what are we talking about here.. Six million coupons daily?  Is this instead a rebate after purchasing cigs and mailing in a proof of purchase? Still confused


They were like stamps (S&H green stamps) you could get merchandise with them...

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There was a green stamp redemption store in my hometown - everything from toys to appliances to clothing. Single packs had 1 stamp each - cartons three extra stamps. WWII guys all smoked.  You could even buy gas and oil. One diner in town took them. The local drive in theater took them for a while!  Roadside produce vendors took them in the summer and fall.

I bought my first crystal radio with green stamps. Looked something like this. Caption on the box read: "Listen to Signals From Space!". That hooked me. Cost maybe a book of stamps? Great memories! :)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 01:37:35 AM by georger »
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2742 on: July 04, 2018, 05:12:27 PM »
Alternative explanation for particles on the tie

Maybe DBC liked fireworks! Recent article in the NY Times talks about the use of barium, strontium and other rare minerals to produce the colors in fireworks. See below:

Tryggvi Adalbjornsson@tryggvia

“Mom, are they going to turn off fireworks because of you?”

Kimberly Prather remembers her kids asking her that when they learned that she had written a scientific study of fireworks pollution. Professor Prather is a chemist at University of California San Diego who spends most of her time studying cloud formation. But she has a side interest — fireworks.

Her work around the July 4, 1995, holiday measured particles in the air in Riverside County, Calif., and found a spike in chemicals like barium, which isn’t a particularly common element in the atmosphere, but is vital to fireworks. It’s what helps create vivid greens.

The goal of fireworks is to be big, loud and colorful. To achieve that, a range of chemicals is needed, often including charcoal-based fuel along with various metal compounds to make the colors. For instance, copper has a role in blue bursts, and strontium in red ones.

And at least when Professor Prather did her original research, there was also a small amount of lead. Since then, she expects that lead content has been reduced. But this year she will be bringing out the test equipment to see. “I’m curious as heck if the lead’s really gone,” she said.
How worried should we be? “I definitely try to avoid breathing that air,” she said.

But at least it’s not as bad on the Fourth of July as it sometimes gets in India, where the annual Diwali “Festival of Lights” is celebrated with so many fireworks that in 2016, some schools were closed because of thick pollution. Last year, India’s Supreme Court temporarily banned fireworks in the capital.

There’s a chance for “green” fireworks in the future, though — and not the barium kind. Another pyrotechnic-minded professor, Thomas M. Klapötke of Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich in Germany, has been looking for ways to make fireworks better for the environment. His research focuses on military-grade products (flares, for instance), but the chemistry is similar.

In 2014, his team introduced a new way to make blue fireworks. Traditionally, chlorine was involved, but “Our new chlorine-free coloring agent could revolutionize the manufacture of fireworks and blue-emitting signal flares for the U.S. Army and Navy,” he said at the time.
Coming soon, in other words: Maybe more fireworks that don’t take your breath away?
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2743 on: July 04, 2018, 05:20:31 PM »
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Alternative explanation for particles on the tie

Maybe DBC liked fireworks! Recent article in the NY Times talks about the use of barium, strontium and other rare minerals to produce the colors in fireworks. See below:

Tryggvi Adalbjornsson@tryggvia

“Mom, are they going to turn off fireworks because of you?”

Kimberly Prather remembers her kids asking her that when they learned that she had written a scientific study of fireworks pollution. Professor Prather is a chemist at University of California San Diego who spends most of her time studying cloud formation. But she has a side interest — fireworks.

Her work around the July 4, 1995, holiday measured particles in the air in Riverside County, Calif., and found a spike in chemicals like barium, which isn’t a particularly common element in the atmosphere, but is vital to fireworks. It’s what helps create vivid greens.

The goal of fireworks is to be big, loud and colorful. To achieve that, a range of chemicals is needed, often including charcoal-based fuel along with various metal compounds to make the colors. For instance, copper has a role in blue bursts, and strontium in red ones.

And at least when Professor Prather did her original research, there was also a small amount of lead. Since then, she expects that lead content has been reduced. But this year she will be bringing out the test equipment to see. “I’m curious as heck if the lead’s really gone,” she said.
How worried should we be? “I definitely try to avoid breathing that air,” she said.

But at least it’s not as bad on the Fourth of July as it sometimes gets in India, where the annual Diwali “Festival of Lights” is celebrated with so many fireworks that in 2016, some schools were closed because of thick pollution. Last year, India’s Supreme Court temporarily banned fireworks in the capital.

There’s a chance for “green” fireworks in the future, though — and not the barium kind. Another pyrotechnic-minded professor, Thomas M. Klapötke of Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich in Germany, has been looking for ways to make fireworks better for the environment. His research focuses on military-grade products (flares, for instance), but the chemistry is similar.

In 2014, his team introduced a new way to make blue fireworks. Traditionally, chlorine was involved, but “Our new chlorine-free coloring agent could revolutionize the manufacture of fireworks and blue-emitting signal flares for the U.S. Army and Navy,” he said at the time.
Coming soon, in other words: Maybe more fireworks that don’t take your breath away?

No.
 

Offline MEYDC

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2744 on: July 04, 2018, 07:16:15 PM »
Could some of the particles be from a bomb that DBC had with him?