Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1389927 times)

Offline Kermit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
  • Thanked: 108 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2235 on: September 14, 2017, 01:03:46 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Destruction of key evidence immediately after testing is INSANE if you want to preserve a prosecutable case. This would be deliberate destruction, not accidental loss or alteration making it even worse from a legal standpoint.

If testing requires destruction or alteration of a sample, the prosecutors always keep a portion in original condition. It is absolutely essential legally.

The defense has a right to run their own tests. If you have destroyed evidence you have impacted the defendant's right to a fair trial, something which appellate courts take very seriously.

That clearance to destroy evidence after testing still puzzles me. Back then many FBI SAs were lawyers. They knew better.

377

Wouldn't it be pretty much impossible to secure a conviction of D B Cooper even IF he was found and identified ? Baring an outright confession, with all the missing and compromised evidence it seems any lawyer would get case dismissed ! Your thoughts 377. You could come out of retirement and win a famous case !👍
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2236 on: September 14, 2017, 01:04:23 PM »
I agree, but nothing was found of value, so it wouldn't be introduced into the courtroom, no?
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2237 on: September 14, 2017, 01:11:16 PM »
I told Sheridan I would represent him for free if he were prosecuted. I am confident absent some unequivocal proof (like finding a bunch of crisp Cooper 20s in his possession) that I could get the case thrown out on a spoliation of evidence :nono: based motion to dismiss. I wouldn't make a similar offer to Rackstraw. He would likely be a client from hell. I've had a few of those and they are no fun. I had one guy threaten to kill me if I lost his case. I dropped him.

377
 

Offline Kermit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
  • Thanked: 108 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2238 on: September 14, 2017, 04:04:26 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
As we try to digest the recent reports from TLC, I'd like to bring up another matter. I spent most of the day with my older brother who retired from Portland Boeing in 2001. I asked him when he started at Boeing and he said 1966. He said it was Electronic Speciallties at the time he was hired. I recalled that also but asked him why Boeing bought them out in 1974 from Iron Fireman who have been manufacturing parts for Boeing for many years. He said both Iron Fireman and Electronic Specialty were names both used within the plant. He didn't really know about the ownership details. What is relevant is that Iron Fireman has been making part for Boeing for many years. Perhaps I missed it on this site but IF there is suspicion that COOP might have been a Boeing employee, has anyone done any investigation into Iron Fireman/Electronic Specialty ? I jokingly mentioned it to my brother that perhaps he might have been working with good old COOP. He just smiled !
I just wanted to clarify one of my earlier posts regarding Iron Fireman and Electronic Specialty. I ran across a rather interesting State Tax lawsuit which clarified a number of things but also raised some eyebrows for me. Apparently Iron Fireman and Electronic Specialties had merged into one corporation known as ESCO. However in reading through the legal brief, it mentioned specifically that the company mainly worked on providing parts for Boeing's 727 aircraft in years 1960 and 1961. Very interesting that this plant worked almost exclusively on the 727 in those years. It also mentioned that they had been providing parts for Boeing for many years. I intend to have breakfast with my brother tomorrow and perhaps pick his brain a bit as to what parts ESCO was producing in 1966 when he first started working for them. I also will question him regarding whether there were layoffs at this Boeing plant in that time frame. Since Portland was where this highjacking originated and also the fact that the Portland plant specifically worked on providing Boeing with 727 parts, this could be a overlooked workplace for Cooper.
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2239 on: September 14, 2017, 04:18:41 PM »
R99 wrote: "Cooper did know that the rear stairs on the 727 could be lowered in flight but did not know how to lower them himself, even after Tina gave him specific instructions on how to do so.  This suggests to me that he was not directly involved in the production of the airline aircraft.  However, it is highly likely that the modified 727s that were used in SEA had a different control panel and a more powerful motor to insure that the stairs could be closed in flight, plus other modifications.  This would require different electronics for the modified aft stairs."

I don't think we ever got the whole story on the 727 airdrops done in SEA. The SAT 727 airdrop video we saw on YouTube had the stairs removed.

As I understand the rules, if Boeing modified the airstair actuation gear for 727s to facilitate airdrop ops it would require an FAA issued STC (supplemental type certificate) to be legally flown in civilian  service. There is no such STC required for military aircraft but Air America and SAT cargo jets were not true military aircraft and carried civil registrations. I could find no such STC or FAA waiver for mods on Boeing 727 airstairs or doors. You even need an STC (or waiver) to fly with a door removed on a Cessna 182.

377
 

Robert99

  • Guest
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2240 on: September 14, 2017, 05:02:29 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
R99 wrote: "Cooper did know that the rear stairs on the 727 could be lowered in flight but did not know how to lower them himself, even after Tina gave him specific instructions on how to do so.  This suggests to me that he was not directly involved in the production of the airline aircraft.  However, it is highly likely that the modified 727s that were used in SEA had a different control panel and a more powerful motor to insure that the stairs could be closed in flight, plus other modifications.  This would require different electronics for the modified aft stairs."

I don't think we ever got the whole story on the 727 airdrops done in SEA. The SAT 727 airdrop video we saw on YouTube had the stairs removed.

As I understand the rules, if Boeing modified the airstair actuation gear for 727s to facilitate airdrop ops it would require an FAA issued STC (supplemental type certificate) to be legally flown in civilian  service. There is no such STC required for military aircraft but Air America and SAT cargo jets were not true military aircraft and carried civil registrations. I could find no such STC or FAA waiver for mods on Boeing 727 airstairs or doors. You even need an STC (or waiver) to fly with a door removed on a Cessna 182.

377

377, let me point out something to you.

You state that the SAT 727s in SEA had their rear stairs removed for the parachute jumps in the video.  Then you state that SAT required an STC for that, but that you can't find any record of such an STC or an FAA waiver.

Now what is your specific question? ???

And why would Boeing do additional flight tests on the SAT 727s unless there had been structural changes made to the rear stairs?

Robert99



 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2241 on: September 14, 2017, 05:07:19 PM »
The stairs were removed and sheet metal was applied to the stairs attached to the plane. they had to be removed so cargo could drop....the video shows them doing a practice jump from the plane by sliding down the permanent stairs after the removal of the drop stairs..

I doubt the Government was concerned about regulations in Asia during war time.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 05:07:57 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2242 on: September 14, 2017, 05:28:27 PM »
I agree Shutter, no FAA compliance was needed for those SEA covert ops, but the whole idea of 727 airdrop capability was the ability for civil airliners to covertly drop things/people on routine overflights of interesting or hostile areas. Countries that were at each other's throats often allowed overflights of civil aircraft. If you didn't have an STC, then that modified plane would be useless for normal commercial activity.

The US govt paid Pan Am big recurring fees to have their passenger 747s retrofitted with heavy reinforced cargo floors so that they could be used for military transport purposes should a need arise. Pan Am's capacity and range suffered from the extra weight and they were paid handsomely for this.

Might there have been airdrop capable 727s that served as normal airliners receiving a subsidy? Maybe no mods were needed and therefore no STC and no subsidy.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2243 on: September 14, 2017, 05:30:47 PM »
The 727 and DC 9 used for skydiver exits at WFFC had their stairs removed and sheet metal added to make a smooth exit slide. On my DC 9 jump I didn't contact any sheet metal or structure, but it was essential to have smooth surfaces so that nothing would snag or damage rigs.

377
 

Robert99

  • Guest
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2244 on: September 14, 2017, 06:08:15 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I agree Shutter, no FAA compliance was needed for those SEA covert ops, but the whole idea of 727 airdrop capability was the ability for civil airliners to covertly drop things/people on routine overflights of interesting or hostile areas. Countries that were at each other's throats often allowed overflights of civil aircraft. If you didn't have an STC, then that modified plane would be useless for normal commercial activity.

The US govt paid Pan Am big recurring fees to have their passenger 747s retrofitted with heavy reinforced cargo floors so that they could be used for military transport purposes should a need arise. Pan Am's capacity and range suffered from the extra weight and they were paid handsomely for this.

Might there have been airdrop capable 727s that served as normal airliners receiving a subsidy? Maybe no mods were needed and therefore no STC and no subsidy.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377

377, 

The 747s you mentioned above were modified under a well known program in which other airlines participated as well.  It was known as the Civil Air Reserve Fleet or some such thing.  I don't know all the details but I think it all started long before the 747 and C-5 came along and probably involved the early 707s.  But I think I can state with almost complete certainty that it did not involve the 727s.

Basically, the 707 prototype started the commercial jet age and the USAF bought a lot of KC-135 tanker aircraft to start off what became known as the 707.  I think the USAF tankers were dimensionally similar to the 707 prototype (the "dash 80") but that the actual first 707s that went into civilian airline service were modified by increasing the cabin width in order to have 6 seats across plus some other modifications.

What became the civilian 747 was developed from Boeing's entry in the C-5 competition which was won by Lockheed. 

If the SAT 727s were not involved in civilian revenue operations, then they probably would not require an STC.  There are probably plenty of aircraft flying, especially those carrying outsize cargo, that have never been certificated by the FAA in the first place (that is, they are operating in the experimental category) or operating under some very limited authorization.

Robert99 
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2245 on: September 15, 2017, 01:20:33 PM »
R99 wrote: "If the SAT 727s were not involved in civilian revenue operations, then they probably would not require an STC."

Agree.

There are at least two ways to legally skirt FAA oversight. One is to operate exclusively as a military aircraft. The other is to operate as a state aircraft doing only state business.

Here is an example of a structurally dubious surplus cargo airplane that the FAA refused to certify for commercial service that made a good income doing state business in AK. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The N FAA reg. number does not mean much.  You can get an N number for just about anything. What matters is the FAA Type Certificate.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377



« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 01:28:27 PM by 377 »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2246 on: September 15, 2017, 05:51:12 PM »
Watched "cold case files" today on the Zodiac killer, probably old but they tested the stamps from letters sent in. they could only get a partial, enough to rule a suspect out...sound familiar?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 05:51:29 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4365
  • Thanked: 465 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2247 on: September 15, 2017, 08:39:36 PM »
Yup.
 

Offline Kermit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
  • Thanked: 108 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2248 on: September 15, 2017, 10:39:41 PM »
I had breakfast with my brother who retired from Portland's Boeing in 2001. He started there in 1966 when it was known as Electronic Specialty until Boeing purchased them in 1974. He said although it is true that they were working on the 727 in the early 60's, the main project when he was hired was the 737 and 747. Business was fantastic until sales of the 747 went flat in 1969/70 and there were layoffs big time both in Seattle and in Portland. I asked him about Titanium use and he said it became the big thing with the later 777.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4365
  • Thanked: 465 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2249 on: October 28, 2017, 11:22:05 PM »
YouTube Video on the Parachutes

I've just completed a video on the parachutes involved in Norjak. It is part of a series I am developing, titled: DB Cooper and the FBI. I hope you like, and I invite any feedback. I envision making about six videos on the major topics. Next is the money find.


Here is a direct link to the video:



 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812