DB COOPER

General Category => DB Cooper => Topic started by: Shutter on March 19, 2015, 09:50:52 PM

Title: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on March 19, 2015, 09:50:52 PM
DB Cooper and the FBI: A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking

The DB Cooper skyjacking is a stunning true-crime mystery. In 1971, a man known as DB Cooper hijacked a Northwest Orient airliner and after exchanging the passengers for $200,000, he parachuted into the night skies north of Portland, Oregon. He has never been seen since.

On sale at Amazon.com
[Kindle Edition]

http://www.amazon.com/DB-Cooper-FBI-Americas-Skyjacking-ebook/dp/B00UULLCOW/ref=sr_1_1_twi_1_kin?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1426642459&sr=1-1&keywords=DB+Cooper+and+the+FBI




(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Q3GRW4Z1L._AA278_PIkin4,BottomRight,-46,22_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 19, 2015, 10:29:52 PM
Thanks, Shut. Very classy looking, and I appreciate the exposure.

For DB Cooper Forum readers, the book has a whole chapter on the skyjacking's chat rooms and web sites:  DZ, this forum, and the Mountain News and Geoffrey's huntfordbcooper. AND I name names! But no sex stuff. It also has a huge Who's Who section, and I offer a whole chapter on Larry Carr and his legacy. Lots to enjoy.

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on March 21, 2015, 06:57:22 PM
It's stating 2 reviews, but I only see one. is it just a rating someone gave?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on March 21, 2015, 08:22:41 PM
I submitted a review a few hours ago, sometimes Amazon holds a review to check for inappropriate language or plot spoilers.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on March 21, 2015, 08:24:19 PM
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I submitted a review a few hours ago, sometimes Amazon holds a review to check for inappropriate language or plot spoilers.


That makes sense.....Thanks for clearing that up.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 21, 2015, 10:35:04 PM
Thanks, 'rade, I'm waiting to read it!

18 copies sold. Just talked with Ross R. about marketing, getting into print, speaking engagements, and other ways to make moolah. Just after I climbed "Mt Everest," I find there is another mountain to climb. Whew.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 22, 2015, 05:17:05 PM
Andrade's review is up at Amazon. It's a very thoughtful and well-rounded assessment of the book. Essentially, he says the facts are laid out well, easy to read, but the conspiracy stuff mucks things up. But he acknowledges that the Cooper case almost compels one to contemplate SOME conspiracy.

Thanks, 'Rade. I appreciate your commentary. It's always good to know what folks are thinking who don't normally sit at the Kool-Aid table...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on March 22, 2015, 07:05:57 PM
And I'll re-iterate the main point of the review, which is every Cooper Sleuth should buy the book.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on March 23, 2015, 07:03:26 AM
Looks like one sold over in the United Kingdom.......
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on March 23, 2015, 02:09:18 PM
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I submitted a review a few hours ago, sometimes Amazon holds a review to check for inappropriate language or plot spoilers.

I have a question for you, as a reader of Smith's book:

How does Smith portray the Cooper investigation? As an FBI investigation only or as a shared investigation: FBI, USAF, NWA, Boeing, etc. ?  Does the book make it clear who was in charge of what, and who did what at various stages of the investigation?

Who gets the lion's share of the blame for a failed investigation?

Does Smith tell us what was done wrong, or what was done right,  by who at critical points in the investigation?

Would you recommend Smith's book to the FBI as a training manual?

 :)     
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on March 23, 2015, 05:27:20 PM
Bruce, feel free to respond if I mischaracterize anything...

Quote
How does Smith portray the Cooper investigation? As an FBI investigation only or as a shared investigation: FBI, USAF, NWA, Boeing, etc. ?  Does the book make it clear who was in charge of what, and who did what at various stages of the investigation?

Smith focuses on the FBI almost exclusively. When other agencies are mentioned, it normally has to do with speculation about why the investigation went so poorly.

The book does an excellent job of tracking who the Norjack case agent was throughout the life of the mystery, and Smith includes information from interviews with other FBI agents in the case. The level of detail was greater than that found in other books (Norjack, Skyjack, etc) but falls far short of the captious hairsplitting found in the online forums.

Quote
Who gets the lion's share of the blame for a failed investigation?

Smith doesn't necessarily blame anyone for the failure. He implies (strongly) that there was a cover up, not in the FBI, but in other government agencies. He doesn't claim this as fact, but his last chapter dealing with his remote viewing sessions seems to confirm this is what he believes. [I should note that I am highly skeptical of remote viewing and most paranormal claims, and dismiss remote viewing as a forensic tool. Thankfully, only one chapter of the book deals with remote viewing. The bulk of the book is based on Smith's journalism, and that's a good thing.

Smith documents the major missteps in the case, things that are obviously the FBI's fault.

Quote
Does Smith tell us what was done wrong, or what was done right,  by who at critical points in the investigation?

Yes, more or less. Again, the level of detail found in the forums far exceeds anything you'll find in any of the books in the case. As such, forum regulars might be disappointed that Smith hasn't tackled all the esoteric points in the case.

Quote
Would you recommend Smith's book to the FBI as a training manual?

The Cooper case should represent a lesson in hubris and humility to the FBI. And I think they should be well-acquainted with that lesson.

However, I think the conspiracy element would cause the average FBI agent to ignore any lessons they'd find in the book. I've criticized Bruce enough on this point (it goes all the way back to our first interaction on this forum) so I feel discomfort touching on this any more than necessary.

I hope this response is satisfactory.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 23, 2015, 05:45:53 PM
Georger and 'Rade, I love reading your questions and analysis. To me, it is utterly refreshing to hear your views.

One thing I'd like to add: I never saw the book as a training manual for the FBI. Rather, I saw it as a "Codex" or some kind of "wikipedia-like" overview for Norjak case agents and their squads, such as the agents who are currently assisting SA Eng, Jimmy and Jake, or even the PIO Ayn Dietrich-Williams. I've offered to print them a special FBI edition, replete with phone numbers and contact information.

I also see my book as a contribution to the cultural shift taking place in our country in terms of how we see cops and law enforcement. Once Upon a Time, we trusted the police without question. Now, not so much.

Netflix is filled with documentaries on the abuse of power from LE, prosecutors and the Powers-That-Be. Shows like "Death Row Stories" show the horror of our judicial system. The one-thousand-plus inmates who have been freed from death row or life imprisonment due to DNA findings is proof of a failed and cruel system. The impact of "The Innocence Project" is rippling throughout our nation, to our betterment in my judgement, and DB Cooper and the FBI is my effort to assist this work.

These problems are not confined to the USA, but are probably global in nature. The Amanda Knox case is a tragedy that is not unique to Italy, the United States, or the world for that matter. In just a few days, Knox and her friend Raffaele Sollecito will confront their third Italian Supreme Court ruling in what is an egregious rail-road job designed to build prosecutorial resumes and protect the power-hungry.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on March 23, 2015, 05:56:45 PM
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Bruce, feel free to respond if I mischaracterize anything...

Quote
How does Smith portray the Cooper investigation? As an FBI investigation only or as a shared investigation: FBI, USAF, NWA, Boeing, etc. ?  Does the book make it clear who was in charge of what, and who did what at various stages of the investigation?

Smith focuses on the FBI almost exclusively. When other agencies are mentioned, it normally has to do with speculation about why the investigation went so poorly.

The book does an excellent job of tracking who the Norjack case agent was throughout the life of the mystery, and Smith includes information from interviews with other FBI agents in the case. The level of detail was greater than that found in other books (Norjack, Skyjack, etc) but falls far short of the captious hairsplitting found in the online forums.

Quote
Who gets the lion's share of the blame for a failed investigation?

Smith doesn't necessarily blame anyone for the failure. He implies (strongly) that there was a cover up, not in the FBI, but in other government agencies. He doesn't claim this as fact, but his last chapter dealing with his remote viewing sessions seems to confirm this is what he believes. [I should note that I am highly skeptical of remote viewing and most paranormal claims, and dismiss remote viewing as a forensic tool. Thankfully, only one chapter of the book deals with remote viewing. The bulk of the book is based on Smith's journalism, and that's a good thing.

Smith documents the major missteps in the case, things that are obviously the FBI's fault.

Quote
Does Smith tell us what was done wrong, or what was done right,  by who at critical points in the investigation?

Yes, more or less. Again, the level of detail found in the forums far exceeds anything you'll find in any of the books in the case. As such, forum regulars might be disappointed that Smith hasn't tackled all the esoteric points in the case.

Quote
Would you recommend Smith's book to the FBI as a training manual?

The Cooper case should represent a lesson in hubris and humility to the FBI. And I think they should be well-acquainted with that lesson.

However, I think the conspiracy element would cause the average FBI agent to ignore any lessons they'd find in the book. I've criticized Bruce enough on this point (it goes all the way back to our first interaction on this forum) so I feel discomfort touching on this any more than necessary.

I hope this response is satisfactory.

Great answers! I will buy and read his book based on your answers alone. Thanks!  :)

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 23, 2015, 06:01:41 PM
Thanks, G.  Ching, ching. Another four bucks....
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on March 24, 2015, 12:26:20 AM
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Thanks, G.  Ching, ching. Another four bucks....

Can I buy this e-book through Barnes & Nobel? 
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 24, 2015, 02:56:51 AM
I don't think so. I think you have to buy the e-book online at Amazon. I think their World-Wide Literary-Info Cartel is the only way for me to get 4 bucks on the royalty.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 02, 2015, 10:48:05 AM
I see the ratings have went up again. I take it a spike in sales has occurred? this is when Bobby tries to tell people his book is # what ever on Amazon. the ranking system is sort of skewed IMO.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 02, 2015, 04:23:14 PM
I'll have to check. More sales?  Yippee!!!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 02, 2015, 04:31:58 PM
I don't know for sure, but I seen a jump in the ranking...that usually means a spike.  :o
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 08, 2015, 09:09:57 PM
No updates Bruce?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 09, 2015, 03:37:55 PM
Thanks for asking, Shut. Here's an overview of what's been happening.

A few days ago I went to a book signing by Jon Ronson. He's the Brit author who is quite celebrated, and was on the Jon Stewart show a week ago - all to discuss his new book on public shaming, cyber bullying and the like. He is also the author of The Men Who Stare at Goats, which I cite in DB Cooper and the FBI. Jon and I spoke briefly, and I was surprised that he had never heard of the DB Cooper case, but he gave me his email address to send him a file copy. He was very supportive of my work, too!

Upon 377's suggestion, I will be sending out the chapter on Al Di as a free-standing article to local pubs, such as Seattle Magazine, the Parachutist, and whatever else I can find. I'll even send a copy to the Seattle desk of the NY Times - never can tell...

I've also been researching how to print up a few hard-copy books. the so-called "author editions." Third Place Books in Seattle will do that, but they want three-hundred bucks for the set-up. Ug. To print at a regular publisher I'll need my own ISBN numbers and they cost a few hundred as well, so I'll chip away on that as soon as my e-book editor is paid in full.

I want to have hard-copy books in hand before I hit the speaker trail, such as libraries, Rotaries, etc.

But I will be sending out press releases shortly to area pubs. That's one of the next TTD - Things To Do!

I've also fielded a few enquiries from film companies and videographers. The conversation starts favorably, but then fades from view; not sure why.

Also continuing to send out queries and sample chapters to literary agents. I'm still looking at going the traditional route as it gives me better distribution and promotion.

As for stats, I've sold 22 copies, and four copies were read through the Amazon lending library. I raised the cost to $9.99, which is par with GG's Skyjack.

I'll be sure to post more Updates here in the future!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 09, 2015, 11:13:20 PM
I'm preparing to get the ball rolling on your video if you are still interested in one?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on April 09, 2015, 11:54:14 PM
Start contacting radio shows, especially the late night guys and the paranormal shows.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 10, 2015, 02:48:20 AM
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I'm preparing to get the ball rolling on your video if you are still interested in one?


Let's Roll!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 11, 2015, 09:02:44 AM
Why not try contacting Fitzsimmons, and Clyde Lewis. Coast to Coast am etc.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 11, 2015, 09:42:49 AM
A lot of you probably missed this interview Bruce did in September of 2013 about his up and coming book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd9DD0wnaII
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 11, 2015, 04:28:18 PM
Thanks, Shut!  I had forgotten about this interview. Danny Schechter is a great guy.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 11, 2015, 04:32:13 PM
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Why not try contacting Fitzsimmons, and Clyde Lewis. Coast to Coast am etc.

I had forgotten Fitz. Will do. Clyde and C2C have been unresponsive in the past, but I will give them another opportunity....(smile).

Did I mention here that I spoke with Jon Ronson this week at Third Place Books in Seattle?  He's the author of Men Who Stare at Goats, and is cited in my book. He told me that he had never heard about DB Cooper, but now he wants to read up on it and gave me his email address to send him a copy. So, things are slowly happening.

Oops. Repeated info.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 13, 2015, 11:12:24 PM
I just learned that the guy who interviewed me in 2013, Danny Schechter, died last month from pancreatic cancer. RIP, Danny. He was an award-winning producer and journalist with CNN for many years, and was with an Indie organization known as PRN when we spoke. He was 72.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 13, 2015, 11:13:22 PM
Spoke with Clyde yesterday. He sounded supportive, and thought he could get me on a show in a few months.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 13, 2015, 11:17:30 PM
what kind of interview, audio, or video?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 13, 2015, 11:23:15 PM
Gave a 90-minute interview today with a radio show in NYC called ARRVLS. It went very well, and it should be out in a few months.

They work closely with "This American Life," so I'm hoping for some cross-over.

I also contacted an old buddy, Art Silverman, the former Exec Producer of All things Considered. He was the best friend of a friend of mine from the freshman dorms at college. We all traveled to Florida together on our first Spring Break in '68.

Also sent a p.r. off to Terry Gross at Fresh Air, along with an apology. I got to see her "A Night With" in Seattle several years ago by flashing my press pass. I promised the theater staff I would write a piece on the shin-dig in the Mountain News, but I never did. I just crapped out. I did that a few times. Also did it at Liane Hansen of Weekend Edition at KPLU. I still have a few people to apologize for that one.  Sigh.....
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 13, 2015, 11:23:37 PM
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what kind of interview, audio, or video?

Audio.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 13, 2015, 11:25:52 PM
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what kind of interview, audio, or video?

Audio.


Ok, I wasn't sure if they ran a video podcast thingy  8)
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 13, 2015, 11:28:11 PM
But I did write up my interview with Arlo Guthrie, and also Linda Ronstadt. So I'm two for four, ethically. I think that might keep me out of Hell, but Heaven might be a little iffy at this point....better tell my cardio guy I need more time...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 13, 2015, 11:29:29 PM
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what kind of interview, audio, or video?

Audio.


Ok, I wasn't sure if they ran a video podcast thingy  8)

No, it was a Google Voice thingy, and I had to call in, so I guess I'm on the hook at  five cents a minute...hmmm. 90 x 5 equals....I'll have to get back to you.

Georger!  Help!!!

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 13, 2015, 11:30:52 PM
Fame cost me $4.50 today!

Better sell a couple books! Speaking of which, I've sold six this month, but one guy asked for and received a refund...I wonder who? Maybe the guy who posted a review and then took it down...

Also, four folks read the book from the Amazon Library, which is where the Oregonian guy Stuart Tomlinson said he was gonna go because my proof review copy is a bit too shiny.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 13, 2015, 11:37:11 PM
Really, someone posted a review, and then took it down? Bobby's M.O.  :P :P :P
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 14, 2015, 12:10:54 AM
You said it, not ME.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 14, 2015, 12:30:06 AM
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You said it, not ME.


Yep, I SAID it  :P
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 14, 2015, 09:55:28 AM
I thought you were talking about a new review. I was just joking when I said that because that's the first thing that popped into my head  :D I now see that Robert has taken down his review. what was the reason, nobody hit yes for the comment being helpful, or you didn't sign up to his forum?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 14, 2015, 07:23:01 PM
You know the man well, Shut. Sigh.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 14, 2015, 10:14:44 PM
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You know the man well, Shut. Sigh.


Perhaps, but we can't see him anymore with the Berlin wall he built around his forum  :D you know, the stuff he banged on for a year about this forum? what's that word he used....oh, "double standard"
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MarkBennett on April 15, 2015, 09:58:52 AM
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You know the man well, Shut. Sigh.


Perhaps, but we can't see him anymore with the Berlin wall he built around his forum  :D you know, the stuff he banged on for a year about this forum? what's that word he used....oh, "double standard"

Well, he can't be calling himself Cooper Royalty because that is other people.  But, if it's like the Berlin Wall, maybe he's just behind the Cooper curtain.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 15, 2015, 04:55:14 PM
Book Update.

I pitched the Sheridan Peterson story to Parachutist Magazine since they got an intro to Petey with Mooshie's piece in 2011. They are very supportive of my book and will run some kind of announcement in the June issue, but they indicated they've had enough of the Eagle-Eyed One, and Cooper, too, surprisingly. Their words were, "...remember this is a general interest skydiving magazine..."

Maybe they'd go for a piece on Robb?  Hmmmm.

Making the rounds with the book announcement: NPR, Fresh Air, This American Life, all the local newspapers, NY Times Seattle desk, Clyde and Ground Zero, C2C, all the local TV stations. Feels good to be back in the saddle and ridin' hard.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 15, 2015, 06:49:20 PM
I've got an awesome idea for your video.....
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MarkBennett on April 16, 2015, 04:19:40 PM
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Book Update.

I pitched the Sheridan Peterson story to Parachutist Magazine since they got an intro to Petey with Mooshie's piece in 2011. They are very supportive of my book and will run some kind of announcement in the June issue, but they indicated they've had enough of the Eagle-Eyed One, and Cooper, too, surprisingly. Their words were, "...remember this is a general interest skydiving magazine..."

Maybe they'd go for a piece on Robb?  Hmmmm.

Making the rounds with the book announcement: NPR, Fresh Air, This American Life, all the local newspapers, NY Times Seattle desk, Clyde and Ground Zero, C2C, all the local TV stations. Feels good to be back in the saddle and ridin' hard.

Did you try the Seattle Times book editor?  I'm curious if she responded.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 16, 2015, 04:20:37 PM
Yes, I contacted her, but no response so far.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 17, 2015, 10:03:39 AM
I see a huge spike in the ratings! #74,323

http://www.amazon.com/DB-Cooper-FBI-Americas-Skyjacking-ebook/dp/B00UULLCOW/ref=sr_1_1_twi_1_kin?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1426642459&sr=1-1&keywords=DB+Cooper+and+the+FBI
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 17, 2015, 05:06:18 PM
Where are the ratings, Shut? I can't find them.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 17, 2015, 05:21:42 PM
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Where are the ratings, Shut? I can't find them.

At the bottom of "Product Details"
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 17, 2015, 09:39:26 PM
Gracie mille.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 21, 2015, 06:00:15 PM
Book Update, April 21, 2015:

I raised the price to $9.99, which is what GG's charging for Skyjack. It seemed proper to do so.

Sail just emailed me to say that he has bought a second copy!  Now, his wife can read along with him!!!

Ah, to think that DB Cooper has deepened a romance....

Also, Atlas Media Corp of NYC called to say that they are making a DBC docu to be part of their American Heroes. series. It was amazing to learn how screwed-up they were on the details, and to be fairly advanced in their production.  Whew. They thought Tina was in charge of the flight attendants, and they had never heard of Alice Hancock. I offered to send the producer I talked with, a review copy, but he declined and said he was going to buy a copy! (Glad I raised the price! - I made six bucks on the phone call - yeah!)

Lastly, I'm pretty sure of who the prankster is at the Mountain News, but I ain't saying in order to protect the identity of the guilty.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 21, 2015, 06:13:02 PM
Quote
Lastly, I'm pretty sure of who the prankster is at the Mountain News, but I ain't saying in order to protect the identity of the guilty.


Sounds like something "Cooking" ??????????????????
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 21, 2015, 08:09:05 PM
No, it's more like something's getting smelly in the back of the refrigerator.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 26, 2015, 04:00:30 PM
Hard copy  :D
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 26, 2015, 04:36:10 PM
I like it!  Thanks-
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 13, 2015, 10:52:07 PM
A new book has hit the market that may be of interest to DB Cooper fans.

Falling Over Reno - The True Story of the Skyjacker's Wife, is the account of Mary Stevenson being Robb Heady's girlfriend - and then wife - as he skyjacked his airplane and then did time in Lompoc prison.

I just started reading it, and I'll give you a full report when I'm finished.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on May 13, 2015, 11:32:40 PM
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A new book has hit the market that may be of interest to DB Cooper fans.

Falling Over Reno - The True Story of the Skyjacker's Wife, is the account of Mary Stevenson being Robb Heady's girlfriend - and then wife - as he skyjacked his airplane and then did time in Lompoc prison.

I just started reading it, and I'll give you a full report when I'm finished.

Is Mary Stevenson from Stevenson-Carson WA?  Could she be related to the DB Coopoer suspect reported there by the girl holding an ice cream cone?

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 14, 2015, 03:09:50 AM
And Robb did the jump to prove his undying love?

Nah.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 14, 2015, 03:11:13 AM
But Stevenson and Christiansen rhyme!

Drat. Where is a good lyricist when you need one?

Bobby!  Come back. All is forgiven....
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on May 14, 2015, 04:19:14 AM
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But Stevenson and Christiansen rhyme!

Drat. Where is a good lyricist when you need one?

Bobby!  Come back. All is forgiven....

Why dont you go to Bobby instead. !  :)  We know your only loyalty is to your self. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on September 19, 2015, 11:45:03 AM
I purchased a copy of Ron and Pat's book (in PDF form) from their website. They never got around to sending it to me. Does anyone have a PDF copy they can email me? I'll show a screengrab of the paypal transaction to prove I paid for it.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on September 19, 2015, 12:49:49 PM
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I purchased a copy of Ron and Pat's book (in PDF form) from their website. They never got around to sending it to me. Does anyone have a PDF copy they can email me? I'll show a screengrab of the paypal transaction to prove I paid for it.


I'll send an email and see if they respond..
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 19, 2015, 03:27:36 PM
Me, too.

In fact, I'll mention it to them directly, as I might see them this week.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Ron and Pat on September 19, 2015, 06:53:19 PM
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I purchased a copy of Ron and Pat's book (in PDF form) from their website. They never got around to sending it to me. Does anyone have a PDF copy they can email me? I'll show a screengrab of the paypal transaction to prove I paid for it.
My apologies.  I don't know why this didn't show up in my Paypal account. I will be sure you get a copy.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on September 19, 2015, 06:56:25 PM
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I purchased a copy of Ron and Pat's book (in PDF form) from their website. They never got around to sending it to me. Does anyone have a PDF copy they can email me? I'll show a screengrab of the paypal transaction to prove I paid for it.
My apologies.  I don't know why this didn't show up in my Paypal account. I will be sure you get a copy.


Thanks for the fast response. I'm sure it was a glitch somewhere....nice to hear from ya anyways...make sure you check out the newly released files on our new website....

Shutter
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on September 19, 2015, 11:01:16 PM
Transaction was on July 9th, I'll send a screengrab to Shutter when I get on a different computer. I was reading other books and forgot about it.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on September 19, 2015, 11:01:40 PM
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I purchased a copy of Ron and Pat's book (in PDF form) from their website. They never got around to sending it to me. Does anyone have a PDF copy they can email me? I'll show a screengrab of the paypal transaction to prove I paid for it.

Check your email.... 8)
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on September 19, 2015, 11:05:04 PM
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I purchased a copy of Ron and Pat's book (in PDF form) from their website. They never got around to sending it to me. Does anyone have a PDF copy they can email me? I'll show a screengrab of the paypal transaction to prove I paid for it.

Check your email.... 8)

Oh, thanks. There it is. Guess I should check my email before coming on here...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on September 19, 2015, 11:21:40 PM
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I purchased a copy of Ron and Pat's book (in PDF form) from their website. They never got around to sending it to me. Does anyone have a PDF copy they can email me? I'll show a screengrab of the paypal transaction to prove I paid for it.

Check your email.... 8)

Oh, thanks. There it is. Guess I should check my email before coming on here...


No problem, glad I could help....
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 01, 2015, 04:54:18 PM
McCoy's relationship to DB Cooper

Greetings everyone.
I am conducting a major editing of my book on DBC, and currently focusing on Richard McCoy and his curious relationship to the Cooper hijacking. Here is what I have found, currently:


"McCoy is one of an estimated twenty Cooper copycats—hijackers who performed their heist using the methods employed by DB Cooper—and McCoy is one of five known skyjackers to have parachuted successfully from their plane.

But the McCoy story also reveals that he might have been intimately involved in the DB Cooper skyjacking.
During the FBI's investigation of McCoy's April 1972 hijacking, he was discovered to have been in Las Vegas during the time of the Cooper skyjacking.

Here is the timeline Calame's team developed for Richard McCoy in the Thanksgiving holiday period.
On Tuesday, November 23, McCoy attended his last class at Brigham Young University before the holiday recess.
On Wednesday, November 24—the day of the Cooper skyjacking—McCoy was scheduled to be on duty with his National Guard unit, but wasn't. Instead, McCoy was far south of  Provo, buying gas in Cedar City, Utah, which is 182 miles northeast of Las Vegas.

On Thanksgiving Day, November 25, McCoy bought additional gas at a Power Thrust station adjacent to McCarran airport in Las Vegas, according to his credit card receipts. Then, at 10:41 pm that evening he made a collect call from the Tropicana Hotel in Las Vegas to his home in Provo.

Hence, the burning question is why was McCoy in Las Vegas on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving and staying through Turkey Day itself?

Calame wondered if McCoy was actually DB Cooper, and catching a flight to Portland to perform his first skyjacking—the DB Cooper caper—and using Las Vegas as an intermediary travel point.

Unfortunately, Calame's team was unable to determine if McCoy actually flew to and from PDX, since the airlines servicing Las Vegas' McCarran airport destroyed their flight manifests after four months—one month prior.

In addition, Calame's team discovered that McCoy had been in Las Vegas on the evening of November 2, 1971 and absent from his family for several days. Hence, they speculated that McCoy was flying round trip to Portland on a scouting mission.

Digging more deeply, Calame and Rhodes found many similarities between the Cooper skyjacking and McCoy's hijacking of United Flight 855, concluding that McCoy was DB Cooper, and doing a second hijacking in April 1972.

Many disbelieve that hypothesis because McCoy was too short, and at 29, too young, to be Cooper. Plus, McCoy had blue eyes.

But Calame and Rhodes showed that McCoy was at least a carbon-copy type of copycat of Cooper, using methods identical to Cooper in his November skyjacking, or conducting actual refinements.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on October 01, 2015, 07:56:47 PM
I would think a huge conspiracy would be in the making for this to work. McCoy was just a couple months after Cooper, and the Stews were shown his picture and they said it wasn't him. you would think this subject was fresh on there minds for identification?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on October 01, 2015, 08:18:58 PM
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I would think a huge conspiracy would be in the making for this to work. McCoy was just a couple months after Cooper, and the Stews were shown his picture and they said it wasn't him. you would think this subject was fresh on there minds for identification?

Good point Shutter.

377
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 01, 2015, 11:46:22 PM
I don't believe that Richard McCoy was DB Cooper. At all.

The big questions I have is, what was McCoy doing in Vegas during Cooper's hijacking?  Transiting to PDX to be a getaway guy for Cooper?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on October 01, 2015, 11:50:53 PM
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I don't believe that Richard McCoy was DB Cooper. At all.

The big questions I have is, what was McCoy doing in Vegas during Cooper's hijacking?  Transiting to PDX to be a getaway guy for Cooper?


It's his credit card linking him to Vegas, right? did anyone put him there physically?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on October 01, 2015, 11:59:38 PM
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I don't believe that Richard McCoy was DB Cooper. At all.

The big questions I have is, what was McCoy doing in Vegas during Cooper's hijacking?  Transiting to PDX to be a getaway guy for Cooper?

I think Calme tried to establish a relationship between McCoy and Cooper but never could confirm one. McCoy and his wife were definitely a team, and probably independent of whoever Cooper was. ???
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 02, 2015, 12:13:38 AM
Not exactly true, G. When I talked with Calame, he was adamant in his belief that McCoy was Cooper. That was in 2008. Along those lines, Nick O'Hara surprised me when he acknowledged in 2012 that lots of retired agents from the SLC office were still true believers, as well.

So, the question for these guys (and us) is - if McCoy wasn't Cooper, did he still have a relationship with him? Getaway guy? Student and mentor? Buddies in the same skyjacking club? Army buddies from Vietnam???

BTW: To characterize Karen McCoy as a "team" with her husband is misleading, since she is widely thought to have thrown Richard under the bus in a deal with the feds - reveal his hiding place in Virginia Beach in exchange for a pass on the conspiracy charge of being a getaway driver, and money stasher...

...it was a tough deal, since if she refused then her kids go to foster care when she heads to jail. What I don't understand is the animosity she displayed towards Calame and Rhodes in an alleged lawsuit over the book and film deal, and why not even her attorney would talk to GG.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on October 02, 2015, 12:28:21 AM
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Not exactly true, G. When I talked with Calame, he was adamant in his belief that McCoy was Cooper. That was in 2008. Along those lines, Nick O'Hara surprised me when he acknowledged in 2012 that lots of retired agents from the SLC office were still true believers, as well.

So, the question for these guys (and us) is - if McCoy wasn't Cooper, did he still have a relationship with him? Getaway guy? Student and mentor? Buddies in the same skyjacking club? Army buddies from Vietnam???

BTW: To characterize Karen McCoy as a "team" with her husband is misleading, since she is widely thought to have thrown Richard under the bus in a deal with the feds - reveal his hiding place in Virginia Beach in exchange for a pass on the conspiracy charge of being a getaway driver, and money stasher...

...it was a tough deal, since if she refused then her kids go to foster care when she heads to jail. What I don't understand is the animosity she displayed towards Calame and Rhodes in an alleged lawsuit over the book and film deal, and why not even her attorney would talk to GG.

I have to assume the investigations of Cooper & McCoy overlapped. I have to assume a lot of people were canvassed in McCoys' net work looking for any connecti0on between McCoy and Cooper. Calme and others may have thought McCoy was Cooper but apparently no concrete evidence was found.... not even a 'brag' on McCoy's part, which is out of character for McCoy?

I think McCoy's wife was up to her eyeballs in her husbands life and if she did not actively conspire in his hijacking she probably thought something 'untoward' was a possibility. Weren't they in financial difficulty? She came out smelling like a rose!

Then, from the sublime to the ridiculous: why were Jo and Duane Weber attracted to McCoy's story story when they moved to McCoy's 'Virginia Beach'! That is one for Jo's analyst!  :)       
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 02, 2015, 03:09:18 AM
I don't believe that McCoy was Cooper. But Georger, any thoughts on what McCoy was doing in Las Vegas on November 24 and 25th, and again on November 2-3?

Just a Mormon Sunday School teacher who likes to go honkey-tonking every now and then? A suicidal Vietnam vet struggling with PTSD just looking to get his mind clear before heading back to the daily grind?

Also, do you know how he learned so much about DB Cooper's MO? Was stuff like the port positioning of the fuel trucks discussed in the papers? Further, how did DB Cooper know that kind of stuff, like the bomb-over-a-gun, no contact with cockpit crew, collecting all of the notes, etc.?

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 02, 2015, 03:36:01 AM
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I have to assume the investigations of Cooper & McCoy overlapped. I have to assume a lot of people were canvassed in McCoys' net work looking for any connecti0on between McCoy and Cooper. Calme and others may have thought McCoy was Cooper but apparently no concrete evidence was found.... not even a 'brag' on McCoy's part, which is out of character for McCoy?
       

For some, like Russ Calame, the investigation of Richard McCoy was totally intertwined with the Cooper investigation. Further, Calame told me that the Seattle case agent also was a strong believer that McCoy was Cooper.

As for McCoy bragging, Bernie Rhodes wrote that he began to admire how tight lipped and stoic McCoy was when the odds were getting stacked against him. But clearly, McCoy told his buddy Van Ieperen a lot - but never mentioned DBC, apparently.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: sailshaw on October 02, 2015, 09:23:08 AM
Bruce:  You say "For some, like Russ Calame, the investigation of Richard McCoy was totally intertwined with the Cooper investigation. Further, Calame told me that the Seattle case agent also was a strong believer that McCoy was Cooper."
I say:  "McCoy was too short at 5ft 8in just like Kenney Christensen to be a 6ft tall DB Cooper"
Why continue with wrong suspects? Why did the FBI not understand the difference between 5ft 8in and 6ft? Why are they not comparing the DNA from the stamps/envelope flaps of the four letters sent to the newspapers post Norjak with Sheridan Peterson?

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: nmiwrecks on October 02, 2015, 09:33:10 AM
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Bruce:  You say "For some, like Russ Calame, the investigation of Richard McCoy was totally intertwined with the Cooper investigation. Further, Calame told me that the Seattle case agent also was a strong believer that McCoy was Cooper."
I say:  "McCoy was too short at 5ft 8in just like Kenney Christensen to be a 6ft tall DB Cooper"
Why continue with wrong suspects? Why did the FBI not understand the difference between 5ft 8in and 6ft? Why are they not comparing the DNA from the stamps/envelope flaps of the four letters sent to the newspapers post Norjak with Sheridan Peterson?

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Bob,
Do you have height, weight, eye color, hair color for McCoy from a reliable source?  I would like to add it to our suspect matrix.

Thanks,
Ross
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on October 02, 2015, 01:57:07 PM
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Bruce:  You say "For some, like Russ Calame, the investigation of Richard McCoy was totally intertwined with the Cooper investigation. Further, Calame told me that the Seattle case agent also was a strong believer that McCoy was Cooper."
I say:  "McCoy was too short at 5ft 8in just like Kenney Christensen to be a 6ft tall DB Cooper"
Why continue with wrong suspects? Why did the FBI not understand the difference between 5ft 8in and 6ft? Why are they not comparing the DNA from the stamps/envelope flaps of the four letters sent to the newspapers post Norjak with Sheridan Peterson?

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

The question I always had was if Cooper was someone in McCoy's background and heard McCoy bragging talking, doing what-ifs, etc ... and pulled the plug first on what was essentially McCoy's idea ... we know McCoy had a BIG mouth. But, with the new data I am more convinced than ever that Cooper and McCoy were completely unrelated and Cooper was independent. Perhaps even a foreigner. 

I have the feeling McCoy wasn't playing with a full deck ... was a deeply confused and deluded individual ... whereas Cooper knew exactly what he was doing and had a reason(s).
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 02, 2015, 04:12:14 PM
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Bruce:  You say "For some, like Russ Calame, the investigation of Richard McCoy was totally intertwined with the Cooper investigation. Further, Calame told me that the Seattle case agent also was a strong believer that McCoy was Cooper."
I say:  "McCoy was too short at 5ft 8in just like Kenney Christensen to be a 6ft tall DB Cooper"
Why continue with wrong suspects? Why did the FBI not understand the difference between 5ft 8in and 6ft? Why are they not comparing the DNA from the stamps/envelope flaps of the four letters sent to the newspapers post Norjak with Sheridan Peterson?

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

Sail, as we have discussed, I encourage you to take action to get the DNA from the envelopes and stamps - file a FOIA, call Congressman and Congresswomen, such as Dave Reichert, the former King County Sheriff who apprehended the Green River Killer, and other prominent public figures. You gotta take this to the streets to get the FBI to budge.

As for McCoy, I think you misunderstand my writing. I am simply reporting what others in Norjak were/are thinking about Richard McCoy. I, like most folks, do not think McCoy was Cooper.

That said, his involvement in Norjak seems to have strong possibilities. His mysterious trips to Las Vegas in November 1971, need further probing.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on October 02, 2015, 04:13:10 PM
Quote
I have the feeling McCoy wasn't playing with a full deck ... was a deeply confused and deluded individual ... whereas Cooper knew exactly what he was doing and had a reason(s).


McCoy was far more advanced than Cooper. he fell into the typical criminal not being able to keep his trap shut. he has a rather impressive background. it almost seems like he acted out something vs planing it. he stated he could do the crime, or jump easily. what caused him to go over the edge? he's a man of his word. he said he could do the crime, and he stated they couldn't hold him. accomplished both, but that's not a record to be proud of by any means. 
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 02, 2015, 07:33:14 PM
To say that McCoy was "far more advanced than Cooper" is only partially true in my view. Yes, McCoy's decision to hijack a plane enroute to the west coast from Denver was an improvement over Cooper's short Portland-to-Seattle hop.

As for describing McCoy as a "deeply confused and an deluded individual," again, I only agree partially. McCoy was suicidal and hospitalized in the fall of 1971, and that supports your characterization somewhat, but not fully.

He was clearly confused about what to do with the money and his gear once he got back home. He had no end game, at all, as far as I can see.

But his execution of the hijacking was excellent - no evidence of delusion or confusion there. Anticipating the tracking devices in the chutes and using them as decoys was brilliant. Bringing a duffel bag big enough for half a mil, another.

But telling his wife for months that he was going to do the skyjacking was not so smart. It shows the soft underbelly of his psychological structure. He didn't have the full mental and emotional compliment to be a truly successful hijacker.

One of the items that came out of my remote viewing sessions that I particularly enjoyed was when one of the DBC personas told me that he and his colleagues don't need to talk about their work. Hence, they don't. I remember his line that "If you need to talk about the operation, then you can't be part of us. No one in these kinds of operations is flabby or gabby. If you are, you're gone."

Also, I thought the description of his living environment was also appropriate for a Cooper-style operation - living in a military area, with a wife who is conditioned not to ask her husband about his military work.

Maybe DB Cooper lived in the Fort Bragg area or North Carolina, and one of his missions was to fly to South America and deploy from a 727 to assassinate local officials whom the USG didn't like.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 02, 2015, 07:38:41 PM
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But, with the new data I am more convinced than ever that Cooper and McCoy were completely unrelated and Cooper was independent. Perhaps even a foreigner. 

What new data, Georger? What makes you think that McCoy had no relationship whatsoever with Cooper?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on October 02, 2015, 07:51:02 PM
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Bruce:  You say "For some, like Russ Calame, the investigation of Richard McCoy was totally intertwined with the Cooper investigation. Further, Calame told me that the Seattle case agent also was a strong believer that McCoy was Cooper."
I say:  "McCoy was too short at 5ft 8in just like Kenney Christensen to be a 6ft tall DB Cooper"
Why continue with wrong suspects? Why did the FBI not understand the difference between 5ft 8in and 6ft? Why are they not comparing the DNA from the stamps/envelope flaps of the four letters sent to the newspapers post Norjak with Sheridan Peterson?

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Bob,
Do you have height, weight, eye color, hair color for McCoy from a reliable source?  I would like to add it to our suspect matrix.

Thanks,
Ross

According to the FBI wanted flyer (produced after McCoy escaped from prison), he was 5'10" and 170 lbs with blue eyes, brown hair, a dark complexion and "large protruding ears."

The flyer was reprinted in "The Real McCoy" by B. Rhodes.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 28, 2015, 06:08:12 PM
Update: Hard-Copy edition, DB Cooper and the FBI

I've been asked a bit when the hard-copy version will be available. Producing a book via the Print on Demand method is a lot more complicated than I thought it was going to be initially.  Here's the current status that I emailed off to Hank Bertsch:

"The hard-copy will also have an Index, which I am working on at present. It takes a lot of work to clean that sucker up. Whew.

"Size is also becoming an issue. I'm over 500 pages. In the e-Book that wasn't a problem, but with paper and bindings, it is.  I've begun thinking of divvying the book up into separate works. One would be the "Case Study," with the skyjacking, search, suspects and confessees. Number Two would be the FBI and all of their inconsistencies, titled: "Why Can't the FBI Find DB Cooper?" Not sure where to put the documentaries and cultural stuff, like Ariel. That is a separate angle on this story. I've been involved in a few docus, and it is becoming increasingly frustrating and disappointing to deal with these guys. Their heart is just not into investigation."
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Parrotheadvol on October 28, 2015, 07:26:11 PM
Bruce, I would gladly pay for a signed copy of your book when available!!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on October 28, 2015, 09:03:10 PM
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Update: Hard-Copy edition, DB Cooper and the FBI

I've been asked a bit when the hard-copy version will be available. Producing a book via the Print on Demand method is a lot more complicated than I thought it was going to be initially.  Here's the current status that I emailed off to Hank Bertsch:

"The hard-copy will also have an Index, which I am working on at present. It takes a lot of work to clean that sucker up. Whew.

"Size is also becoming an issue. I'm over 500 pages. In the e-Book that wasn't a problem, but with paper and bindings, it is.  I've begun thinking of divvying the book up into separate works. One would be the "Case Study," with the skyjacking, search, suspects and confessees. Number Two would be the FBI and all of their inconsistencies, titled: "Why Can't the FBI Find DB Cooper?" Not sure where to put the documentaries and cultural stuff, like Ariel. That is a separate angle on this story. I've been involved in a few docus, and it is becoming increasingly frustrating and disappointing to deal with these guys. Their heart is just not into investigation."

I know it's a pain to create a large book POD, but it's worth it to get everything into one volume... Though part of me wonders if making two volumes might help sales...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 29, 2015, 04:08:01 AM
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Bruce, I would gladly pay for a signed copy of your book when available!!

You're on, my friend.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 29, 2015, 04:18:44 AM
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Update: Hard-Copy edition, DB Cooper and the FBI

I've been asked a bit when the hard-copy version will be available. Producing a book via the Print on Demand method is a lot more complicated than I thought it was going to be initially.  Here's the current status that I emailed off to Hank Bertsch:

"The hard-copy will also have an Index, which I am working on at present. It takes a lot of work to clean that sucker up. Whew.

"Size is also becoming an issue. I'm over 500 pages. In the e-Book that wasn't a problem, but with paper and bindings, it is.  I've begun thinking of divvying the book up into separate works. One would be the "Case Study," with the skyjacking, search, suspects and confessees. Number Two would be the FBI and all of their inconsistencies, titled: "Why Can't the FBI Find DB Cooper?" Not sure where to put the documentaries and cultural stuff, like Ariel. That is a separate angle on this story. I've been involved in a few docus, and it is becoming increasingly frustrating and disappointing to deal with these guys. Their heart is just not into investigation."

I know it's a pain to create a large book POD, but it's worth it to get everything into one volume... Though part of me wonders if making two volumes might help sales...

I talked with a local editor who specializes in assisting guys like we - either eBooks or POD. When I described what I had and where I wanted to go, I couldn't tell if she was rolling her eye balls or lickin' her chops. Or both...

Specifically, one POD outfit, Lulu, said my book, as described, was going to retail in the $45 range due to its size. That might be okay for folks who want a reference book at their fingertips that has a LOT of juicy stuff in it, as my book does currently, but the average reader may not. I was surprised to learn that my #1 audience are single women with cats (true-crime, narrative non-fiction), so I'm not sure that compelling those ladies to squeeze the Friskees budget for the month is a financially sound idea.

Maybe I'm destined to be famous, rich, and a Sex Object?  Whew.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on October 29, 2015, 03:52:27 PM
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Update: Hard-Copy edition, DB Cooper and the FBI


"Size is also becoming an issue. I'm over 500 pages. In the e-Book that wasn't a problem, but with paper and bindings, it is.  I've begun thinking of divvying the book up into separate works.

I know it's a pain to create a large book POD, but it's worth it to get everything into one volume... Though part of me wonders if making two volumes might help sales...

I talked with a local editor who specializes in assisting guys like we - either eBooks or POD. When I described what I had and where I wanted to go, I couldn't tell if she was rolling her eye balls or lickin' her chops. Or both...

Specifically, one POD outfit, Lulu, said my book, as described, was going to retail in the $45 range due to its size. That might be okay for folks who want a reference book at their fingertips that has a LOT of juicy stuff in it, as my book does currently, but the average reader may not. I was surprised to learn that my #1 audience are single women with cats (true-crime, narrative non-fiction), so I'm not sure that compelling those ladies to squeeze the Friskees budget for the month is a financially sound idea.

Maybe I'm destined to be famous, rich, and a Sex Object?  Whew.

I see no reason why you can't do both, do a slimmer version for the casual true-crime reader, and still create a definitive version (maybe under some more technical-sounding title like "inconsistencies in historical accounts; a challenge to modern historicity in aviation hijackings" to avoid selling the wrong book to the wrong audience).
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 29, 2015, 04:35:31 PM
I like how you're thinking, Andrade.  377 is asking me questions along these lines, too. Here's my current view, as I just expressed to him in an email:

"E-sales appear to be non-existent this month. Not sure why. BTW: modifying an e-Book ain't that easy. It can be done, but it's a lot of work. That's why I haven't changed the e-Book in five months despite the 30 typos, ten misspellings and hundreds of grammatical errors. Plus, it has a couple factual errors. Sigh.

Besides, I want to tell stories, and I need a hard-copy to sell on my book tour. Yeah, 45 bucks is steep. Maybe two versions? Pro model and a slimmed-down Whuffo version???  We can call them the Paracommander Edition and the NB-6 Edition....

What to dump for the Whuffo edition?
    - remote viewing chapter.
    - All reference chapters, except the "who's who."
    - Index
    - Interviews with Marla's people (Arden, Santa, Grace and the sisters-in-law)
    - no photo gallery, just the composite sketches, (well, maybe Tina, me and Galen...)

That might cut a hundred pages. Half the costs, too, according to my editor."

Any suggestions on what to cut for the skinny version?

BTW, A: "...a challenge to modern historicity in aviation hijackings..." for a book title? Did you take your meds this morning? I did. Just sayin'. Well, I'm on a med holiday this week for the Wellbutrin...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on January 13, 2016, 01:46:02 AM
Update on DB Cooper and the FBI - the book and docu:

Lots has been happening of a variety of fronts in the book and documentary arena. Most exciting are a few realizations and developments with broadcasting documentaries.

To begin, it has become ABUNDANTLY clear to me that for my work, DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking, to be aired - where a full examination of the FBI's investigation is undertaken - will require a production team outside of the current array of History/Discovery/Nat Geo channels. What will be necessary, in my opinion, is an approach more along the lines of Netflix's "Making of a Murderer." Further, I will have to be intimately involved in the production process, such as being an Assistant Executive Producer, writer and editor.

I've got some leads on who to talk with about all of this, such as at Netflix, and I've begun taking with entertainment attorneys to craft the early stages of how to develop a project like this. Also under consideration is how to put the FBI's feet to the fire publicly and not get too singed. Or totally conflagrated. If I remain more than six feet under and only get railroaded into priz, I hope you will all write to me on occasion. I might even welcome a call from Mrs. Cooper under those conditions!

As for the book, I'm still searching for how to downsize my 8.5x11 inch manuscript on Apache Open Office 4.0 to some kind of 6x9 size for the hard-copy edition. Afterwards, I can also begin to format margins, line spacing, font sizes and compression factors. Then, I can then develop an index for the hard-copy edition.

In the meantime, I'm working on legal stuff, such as permission to publish certain photos from the Associated Press and the Seattle PI. Currently, AP wants  about 350 bucks per photo. I'd like to use the pix of 305 on the runway at Sea-Tac, the crew at Reno, the laminate, Himms in the trench at T-Bar, and a few others. Where that money is gonna come from, well, Divine Intervention is clearly sought after these days, if you catch my drift...

As for the e-book, I'm still making about 75 bucks a month on royalties, which is paying for my new computer, which quit last August and I'm making payments on. As for the AP pix in the e-book, which I haven't paid for, well, I asked for forgiveness today from the NY agent of AP for licensing and she seems like a very nice gal...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Parrotheadvol on January 13, 2016, 09:55:12 AM
I often find that it is easier to ask for forgiveness, rather than permission. I put this to the test often, very often!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on January 13, 2016, 12:02:28 PM
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I often find that it is easier to ask for forgiveness, rather than permission. I put this to the test often, very often!

When writing a "tell-all" it's usually best to have a few solid facts one can then pass off as "all of the facts"! When all else fails you can fall back on the premise: "facts are not all of the truth". That allows invention in "telling all"!
 :D   
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on January 13, 2016, 06:40:40 PM
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I often find that it is easier to ask for forgiveness, rather than permission. I put this to the test often, very often!

Words to live by!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: sailshaw on January 17, 2016, 02:05:57 AM
Bruce:   Your book is the best and most complete. However, a new book is out "The case of DB Cooper's Parachute" by William L. Sullivan which tries to steal the thunder of the Cooper case and fails to have much in it of real interest. It is a no buy in my book even though I bought a copy for my Kindle.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on January 17, 2016, 03:46:46 AM
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Bruce:   Your book is the best and most complete. However, a new book is out "The case of DB Cooper's Parachute" by William L. Sullivan which tries to steal the thunder of the Cooper case and fails to have much in it of real interest. It is a no buy in my book even though I bought a copy for my Kindle.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

Did you miss the part about it being a "novel"? It does not claim to be an authoritative book on DB Cooper, but a novel using Cooper's parachute as a literary device for a story and a character study ... it is winning awards - lotsa people like it!

bout William L. Sullivan
 
Sullivan completed his B.A. in English at Cornell University, studied linguistics at Germany's Heidelberg University, and earned an M.A. in German at the University of Oregon.
In 1985 he backpacked 1000 miles across Oregon's wilderness. His journal of that adventure, "Listening for Coyote", topped the New York Times' year-end review of travel books and was chosen one of the 100 most significant books in Oregon history.
Since then he has written many novels novels, hiking guidebooks, and historical works. His memoir, "Cabin Fever", describes the 25 summers he and his wife Janell spent building a log cabin by hand along a roadless river in the wilds of Oregon's Coast Range. Each summer he still lives and writes at the cabin. Sullivan reads in seven languages, plays the pipe organ, undertakes backcountry ski expeditions, and volunteers to support libraries.

 PRAISE FOR "The Case of D.B. Cooper's Parachute"
“Bravo! Great characterization, complexity, and detail.”  -- L.J. Sellers, author of the Detective Jackson mystery series
“This book is great -- you’ll find out who D.B. Cooper is, and you’ll be surprised.”  -- Amanda MacNaughton, Paulina Springs Books, Sisters
 “I couldn’t put the book down. I especially enjoyed the familiarity of Portland. A great read!”  -- Sue Bernt, The Willamette Store, Salem
“This story is jam packed with exciting moments of high-speed chases, encounters and near misses with the Russian Mob, and of course murders of a most foul nature, all within the familiarity of our most beloved state, Oregon." --Amanda, University of Oregon Duck Store
"The story of D.B. Cooper has fascinated people for decades and there have been many theories about who Cooper might really have been. This novel, D.B. Cooper's Parachute, is an equally fascinating fictionalized account about who the real D.B. Cooper is. The novel is well-written and increasingly thrilling as it shows [detective] Neil get further in over his head as he follows the clues that take him from Portland to Russia -- in addition to dealing with a new romance, work politics and his autistic daughter. This hard-to-put-down book is something mystery fans should read.” -- Barbara Cothern, Portland Book Review
“Sullivan draws on a deep knowledge of the Pacific Northwest to create an imaginative, fast-paced tale. The intricate plot stretches from Portland to the bleak Russian city of Murmansk. A fun, home-grown mind teaser of a mystery.”  -- Alice Tallmadge, UO School of Journalism & Communications
"A nice blend of history and intrigue." -- Lee Juillerat, Herald and News
“The Case of D.B. Cooper’s Parachute suggests that Eugene hiking guru Bill Sullivan is not just listening to birdsong while on the trail. His wheels are spinning, and the results are imaginative and entertaining in this internationally flavored Northwest mystery thriller.”  -- Brain Juenemann, Eugene Register-Guard
“Well researched and intriguing. Throughout, the reader must ask, ‘Is there more than one D.B. Cooper?’ All will be answered, and some of the answers are a complete surprise.”  -- Alec Milner, Vintage Books, Vancouver
 “One Oregon legend writes about another, and the result is unequaled suspense fiction.”  -- Joe Blakely, Kidnapped!
 “Non-stop action from Oregon’s master storyteller. I defy you to put this book down!”  -- Martha Bayless, University of Oregon
 “An exciting novel that draws the reader with exquisite storytelling and character shaping. Fast paced, filled with action, and compelling from start to finish.”  --Grant McHill, KUGN morning show host
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 13, 2016, 07:33:15 PM
Publication Update


My hard-copy edition is being prepped for publication as a Print On Demand book at Amazon, and I'm soliciting blurbs for the back cover. Nice thoughts, please....

The book will have 492 pages, as it is seen in the moment. All AP and PI pix have been removed in this edition due to cost, which is about $350 per pix. It will have an Index. Also, I left in the chapter on remote viewing, as I truly believe that it is one of the directions forensic science will be heading over the next twenty years.

The hard-copy, which is being titled DB Cooper and the FBI, 2nd Edition, is different in many ways from the e-Book edition, which came out about a year ago. 2nd Edition has a sharpened focus on the FBI's investigation, and includes many of the conversations that we have had here at the Forum, such as the timeline on the ground search, or the efforts to obtain meaningful DNA samples. In fact, it can be said that the e-Book is heavily derived from the DZ, while the hard-copy is more reflective of this Forum.

In addition, the 2nd Edition has hundreds of typos, misspellings, and grammatical mistakes corrected, with tons of hyphens removed thanks to Andrade.

Publication date should be St. Patrick's Day, if things continue as planned. Thanks to everyone for your help.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on February 14, 2016, 08:32:43 PM
I look forward to reading the book... again...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 15, 2016, 04:48:02 AM
...imagine how I feel...

It's a good thing that it's an interesting topic and well-written! And superbly Edited!!!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 26, 2016, 06:37:15 PM
The Book is Published

My book on Norjak: DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking, 2nd Edition

is now available in a hard copy, print version at Amazon's book division: CreateSpace. $25, plus shipping, taxes, etc. Ordering particulars are at: https://www.createspace.com/5817285

Here are some details about this edition:

1. This is a "print-on-demand" book, which means that Amazon will only print your book when you order it. Thus, there may be a week's delay between your order and its shipping date, so it might take two weeks to get to you. However, I hear that delivery can be as quick as a few days after ordering.

2. It will have a color, card-stock-type cover, but all internal pix will be black and white. 448 pages. It has an extensive index, (only took me a month to develop!), and is absent from the e-book edition It also has pix in the text of all the sketches, Burnworth, the rigging card in Norm's Steinthaul/Pioneer. Plus it has a Photo Gallery in b/w similar to the e-book, but with all the AP and Hearst company photos removed, as they are about $300 apiece to license.

3. As a 2nd Edition, it contains several new chapters. One is on recent suspects, such as Lepsy. The chapter on DNA is greatly expanded. The chapter on McCoy is similarly reworked, as is the one on MKULTRA. The chapter on Tina has all of my speculative discussions removed, and focuses only on what she said or did, and what others have said she said or did.

4. Overall, the book takes a sharper look at the FBI's investigation, and embraces much of the discussion that we've had here over the past 18 months surrounding cigarette butts, KING TV, Tina Bar, plume trails, etc.

5. If you would like an autographed copy, I'd be honored to sign my nom de plume and scrawl a pithy Cooper Country message to you -  but you'll have to send me 30 bucks first so I can order the book, sign it, and then ship it back out to ya. At this point, I don't have PayPal or a debit card scanner, yet, so you'll have to send me a check. Sigh. So, send me an email and I'll send you my mailing address: brucesmith at rainierconnect dot com. A little complicated, I know, but it's what I can muster at the moment.

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 28, 2016, 11:03:22 PM
A Book on Robb Heady - by his Ex-Wife (!)

As I've sought to tell the world about my DB Cooper book, one of the surprises to come my way is the realization that I had lost Robb Heady's contact information. Apparently, he has moved from his old digs in Durango so my old notes and phone numbers didn't help me too much. But the big kicker was that I got a new computer last summer and my email addresses and files didn't transfer to the new computer, so I had to find another way of locating Robb.

The White Pages finder told me that he was in Apache Junction, AZ, but phone company information couldn't find a phone number for him, or his wife. So I started digging through the old piles of papers that have accumulated during my eight-year crime search, and I found a book from Robb's ex that she mailed to me about 18 months ago. I Googled her, and found success.

Robb's ex is named Mary Stevenson and she wrote a missive about her time with Robb. They were dating on-and-off before Robb went to Vietnam, and then they resumed when he came back in 1972. She was his "girlfriend" when Robb hijacked United 239 in the spring of 1972, and of course got grilled by the FBI. She was completely innocent and unaware of his intentions, so was released. Afterwards, she maintained a modest level of a romantic relationship with Robb as he did his time in Lompoc, and after his release they got married.

The book closely examines her inner feelings about Robb and the skyjacking, and her outward perspectives towards the '60s. She, Robb, and the times were clearly a messy, confusing, and painful gathering of people and desires. As a result, the book recounts many circumstances that are hard to swallow at times. Mary talks bluntly about her love-life, and I often cringed reading her accounts of her actions.

I like Robb, and consider him a friend. Mary is a whole 'nuther sip o' water, but it is clear that she was an important person in Robb's life at a time when his life was hanging by a thread.

Robb has told me that he valued Mary greatly, too, particularly how she taught him how to meditate, do yoga, and develop an inner life. For that, Robb speaks warmly of Mary, and I treasure her for helping a friend in need.

So, if you want to take a closer look at the skyjacking world and how it impacted family, friends, and loved ones - all enmeshed in the turbulence of the 1960s and its sex, drugs and rock and roll culture - you've got a book to read.

It's titled: Falling Over Reno - The True Story of a Skyjacker's Wife. Available at Amazon as a kindle e-book or hard copy. (Like mine!)

Mary Stevenson, #1 Amazon Bestselling Author
#skyjackerswife
www.marystevensonauthor.com
www.vedicstarcharts.com   
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MarkBennett on March 28, 2016, 11:08:25 PM
Bruce,
Do you need Robb's email?  I had told him how much I appreciated him telling us his story and he emailed me to say thanks.  I'll send it to you if you need it.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on March 29, 2016, 01:39:53 PM
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The Book is Published

My book on Norjak: DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking, 2nd Edition

is now available in a hard copy, print version at Amazon's book division: CreateSpace. $25, plus shipping, taxes, etc. Ordering particulars are at: https://www.createspace.com/5817285

Here are some details about this edition:

1. This is a "print-on-demand" book, which means that Amazon will only print your book when you order it. Thus, there may be a week's delay between your order and its shipping date, so it might take two weeks to get to you. However, I hear that delivery can be as quick as a few days after ordering.

2. It will have a color, card-stock-type cover, but all internal pix will be black and white. 448 pages. It has an extensive index, (only took me a month to develop!), and is absent from the e-book edition It also has pix in the text of all the sketches, Burnworth, the rigging card in Norm's Steinthaul/Pioneer. Plus it has a Photo Gallery in b/w similar to the e-book, but with all the AP and Hearst company photos removed, as they are about $300 apiece to license.

3. As a 2nd Edition, it contains several new chapters. One is on recent suspects, such as Lepsy. The chapter on DNA is greatly expanded. The chapter on McCoy is similarly reworked, as is the one on MKULTRA. The chapter on Tina has all of my speculative discussions removed, and focuses only on what she said or did, and what others have said she said or did.

4. Overall, the book takes a sharper look at the FBI's investigation, and embraces much of the discussion that we've had here over the past 18 months surrounding cigarette butts, KING TV, Tina Bar, plume trails, etc.

5. If you would like an autographed copy, I'd be honored to sign my nom de plume and scrawl a pithy Cooper Country message to you -  but you'll have to send me 30 bucks first so I can order the book, sign it, and then ship it back out to ya. At this point, I don't have PayPal or a debit card scanner, yet, so you'll have to send me a check. Sigh. So, send me an email and I'll send you my mailing address: brucesmith at rainierconnect dot com. A little complicated, I know, but it's what I can muster at the moment.

Bruce,

Is there a way to order your book (the second edition) direct from Amazon or Createspace?  If so, what magic enchantments are required?

I would prefer to keep Ramtha out of this, but I cannot find a way to order directly from an online source.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 30, 2016, 04:17:41 AM
This seems to be the link to purchase the book at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0997312009

I'm learning how this marketing thing works, and CreateSpace seems to be a different entity from Amazon, sales-wise. I'll check it out tomorrow, as it is currently 1 am.

As for leaving Ramtha out of the transaction, well, can you really leave an interdimensional being out of anything, for aren't we all ONE at the fundamental level of reality? Maybe I should address these kinds of dynamics in my next book! Hmmm...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 30, 2016, 04:22:44 AM
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Bruce,
Do you need Robb's email?  I had told him how much I appreciated him telling us his story and he emailed me to say thanks.  I'll send it to you if you need it.

I got it, Mark. Thanks. You might enjoy seeing what his ex-wife says about the "good old days." It's kind of weird and a bit stiff, but it is her story.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on March 30, 2016, 12:19:52 PM
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This seems to be the link to purchase the book at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0997312009

I'm learning how this marketing thing works, and CreateSpace seems to be a different entity from Amazon, sales-wise. I'll check it out tomorrow, as it is currently 1 am.

As for leaving Ramtha out of the transaction, well, can you really leave an interdimensional being out of anything, for aren't we all ONE at the fundamental level of reality? Maybe I should address these kinds of dynamics in my next book! Hmmm...

Bruce, You have sold another book.  I had not been able to find anything on the second edition of the book on Amazon previously, but your link worked perfectly.

Amazon promised delivery in two days (Friday, April 1st) and if this is not an April's Fool Day joke then Amazon must have some copies already printed and on hand.

Ramtha will continue to be an ongoing discussion point.

Thanks for the information.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on March 30, 2016, 01:58:49 PM
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This seems to be the link to purchase the book at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0997312009

I'm learning how this marketing thing works, and CreateSpace seems to be a different entity from Amazon, sales-wise. I'll check it out tomorrow, as it is currently 1 am.

As for leaving Ramtha out of the transaction, well, can you really leave an interdimensional being out of anything, for aren't we all ONE at the fundamental level of reality? Maybe I should address these kinds of dynamics in my next book! Hmmm...

Bruce, You have sold another book.  I had not been able to find anything on the second edition of the book on Amazon previously, but your link worked perfectly.

Amazon promised delivery in two days (Friday, April 1st) and if this is not an April's Fool Day joke then Amazon must have some copies already printed and on hand.

Ramtha will continue to be an ongoing discussion point.

Thanks for the information.

I think Bruce knows Ramtha but "Ramtha" doesn't know Bruce! Another case of averted imagination.  :)
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 31, 2016, 03:51:15 AM
I am learning the book business.

To begin, CreateSpace and Amazon are two different companies, with two different roles in the production of books. Amazon is the "marketplace," as was described to me by my latest "best Friend" on the 24-hour hot line at CreateSpace, which is really a publishing house. There was a multi-day lag time between CreateSpace approving my manuscript and publishing me a "proof "copy, and books ready for purchasing at Amazon. Apparently, I jumped the gun a bit, but my account at Amazon is now integrated with my account at CreateSpace.

However, there is a similar kerfuffle at Kindle Direct, which is the e-Book publisher. As with CreateSpace, Kindle Direct is different and separate in vital ways from Amazon. Hence, my "old" e-book - the one that came out last year - is still listed at Amazon as "the" e-book, and I will have to work with Kindle Direct to reformat my new, 2nd Edition paperback-formatted-manuscript into the format that Kindle needs to form into an e-book. And their suggested methods for flipping a CreateSpace PDF into a Word Doc for Kindle didn't work. Hence, I await the sun and a new day....Whew.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 31, 2016, 04:01:28 AM
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I think Bruce knows Ramtha but "Ramtha" doesn't know Bruce! Another case of averted imagination.  :)

You may be correct, Georger, but for me, the "who and what Ramtha is," is unknown. All I really know about him is that he is some kind of being that can channel through a blonde lady in Yelm. However, in my interactions with him he seems to be astutely aware of my real needs, intentions, and capabilities. Hence, I suspect that he may know me better than I know him. Nevertheless, the Bottom Line is that I've learned lots from him, and my life is better for knowing him.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on March 31, 2016, 12:03:55 PM
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I think Bruce knows Ramtha but "Ramtha" doesn't know Bruce! Another case of averted imagination.  :)

You may be correct, Georger, but for me, the "who and what Ramtha is," is unknown. All I really know about him is that he is some kind of being that can channel through a blonde lady in Yelm. However, in my interactions with him he seems to be astutely aware of my real needs, intentions, and capabilities. Hence, I suspect that he may know me better than I know him. Nevertheless, the Bottom Line is that I've learned lots from him, and my life is better for knowing him.

Bruce, Do you have a photo of the "blonde lady in Yelm"?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on April 01, 2016, 05:06:57 PM
Bruce, just got my copy in the mail. It looks great. Skimming through it, it's a much better product than your first edition. By a lot. I'll be adjusting my review on Amazon accordingly.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 01, 2016, 06:56:52 PM
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Bruce, Do you have a photo of the "blonde lady in Yelm"?


Nope. But Google "JZ Knight" and take your pick!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 01, 2016, 07:00:41 PM
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Bruce, just got my copy in the mail. It looks great. Skimming through it, it's a much better product than your first edition. By a lot. I'll be adjusting my review on Amazon accordingly.

Thanks, A-1812. The genesis of much of the improvement is explained on p. 405. In particular, note paragraph #3.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 01, 2016, 08:14:33 PM
Publishing Update

The paperback book and the e-book accounts are now being consolidated and rectified. That means that anyone going to Amazon to buy DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking will be given several options:

1. Buy the paper back version for $25, plus shipping, handling, taxes, etc., via CreateSpace.
2. Buy the e-book version for $9.99 via Kindle.
3. Buy both for a combined $27.99, plus s/h/t.
4. Read the e-book via the Amazon library (for about 1.5 cents per page, I believe, via their Amazon Prime program)
5. All billing will be through Amazon.

The old e-book edition that I released a year ago has now been removed from the marketplace.

One thing still unresolved is what to do with the "Index" in the e-book. I left it in the CreateSpace manuscript that went to Kindle, and I figured anyone who needs to use the Index will know how to re-calibrate the actual denoted pages to whatever device, page size, font, and personal set-ups they are using. For instance, one person's "page 20" may be someone else's "page 21" depending on whether they prefer to read the text in a 100% screen size or 125% screen size, or use BOLD printing, etc. Hence, they will soon realize if they are 2% off from the page given in the Index, or 5% or 50%, etc.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on April 02, 2016, 12:19:09 AM
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Bruce, Do you have a photo of the "blonde lady in Yelm"?


Nope. But Google "JZ Knight" and take your pick!

I followed your instructions.  Are you sure that it is J.Z. Knight's spirituality or mysticism that quickens your pulse?  Just asking.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 02, 2016, 04:13:32 AM
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Bruce, Do you have a photo of the "blonde lady in Yelm"?

Nope. But Google "JZ Knight" and take your pick!

I followed your instructions.  Are you sure that it is J.Z. Knight's spirituality or mysticism that quickens your pulse?  Just asking.


JZ? Nope. Not at all. To me, JZ Knight and Ramtha are two completely different beings. For me, Ramtha is a great teacher. JZ, not so much.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on April 14, 2016, 01:36:40 AM
Bruce, page 150 in your book states that Alan Stone knew of 6 places where Cooper might have picked up the particles found on the tie, do we have a complete listing of these companies and locations?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 14, 2016, 04:23:01 AM
There are six manufacturing sites where pure titanium is processed, as found on the tie by the Citizen Sleuths. Four are in the Untied States, and one of those sites is Oremet, down in Albany, Oregon.

Another site is in the UK, and another in Japan. That leaves three sites in the USA.

What those three other sites are, exactly, I do not know. I just went checking my notes and all the information above came from Alan during his presentation in Portland in 2011. I don't remember if he mentioned the three other places, but I kind of remember them as being Back East places.

Maybe the CS website has more information posted these days on this subject. If you check, let me know. I don't think it had any more info the last time I checked, and certainly my notes from their site does not disclose any more information.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on April 14, 2016, 12:19:02 PM
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There are six manufacturing sites where pure titanium is processed, as found on the tie by the Citizen Sleuths. Four are in the Untied States, and one of those sites is Oremet, down in Albany, Oregon.

Another site is in the UK, and another in Japan. That leaves three sites in the USA.

What those three other sites are, exactly, I do not know. I just went checking my notes and all the information above came from Alan during his presentation in Portland in 2011. I don't remember if he mentioned the three other places, but I kind of remember them as being Back East places.

Maybe the CS website has more information posted these days on this subject. If you check, let me know. I don't think it had any more info the last time I checked, and certainly my notes from their site does not disclose any more information.

Some in the USSR? In fact wasn't Ti difficult to get during the cold war, with the USSR being the primary source? So we cooked up schemes to tap into their distribution pipelines with the USSR becoming our primary source? Wasn't there a NOVA program about this ? Were the Cubans involved in this? Ti needed for all the spy planes and  testing programs at Area-51 .... in Nevada? [I have a grudge and it may be radiation poisoning or the Bay of Pigs fiasco?]

 :)  LETS GO PLACES AT MACH IV   :)

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on April 14, 2016, 12:33:05 PM
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There are six manufacturing sites where pure titanium is processed, as found on the tie by the Citizen Sleuths. Four are in the Untied States, and one of those sites is Oremet, down in Albany, Oregon.

Another site is in the UK, and another in Japan. That leaves three sites in the USA.

What those three other sites are, exactly, I do not know. I just went checking my notes and all the information above came from Alan during his presentation in Portland in 2011. I don't remember if he mentioned the three other places, but I kind of remember them as being Back East places.

Maybe the CS website has more information posted these days on this subject. If you check, let me know. I don't think it had any more info the last time I checked, and certainly my notes from their site does not disclose any more information.

Some in the USSR? In fact wasn't Ti difficult to get during the cold war, with the USSR being the primary source? So we cooked up schemes to tap into their distribution pipelines with the USSR becoming our primary source? Wasn't there a NOVA program about this ? Were the Cubans involved in this?

Georger, I don't know about the Cubans but you are right on the other points.  The need for TI in the USA greatly increased around 1960 as the North American B-70 aircraft and the Lockheed SR-71 series of aircraft started coming into use.  And the proposed SST would have used TI.

The TV program you refer to may have been a recent one on the History Channel on cable discussing the CIA's activities.

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on April 14, 2016, 01:49:21 PM
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There are six manufacturing sites where pure titanium is processed, as found on the tie by the Citizen Sleuths. Four are in the Untied States, and one of those sites is Oremet, down in Albany, Oregon.

Another site is in the UK, and another in Japan. That leaves three sites in the USA.

What those three other sites are, exactly, I do not know. I just went checking my notes and all the information above came from Alan during his presentation in Portland in 2011. I don't remember if he mentioned the three other places, but I kind of remember them as being Back East places.

Maybe the CS website has more information posted these days on this subject. If you check, let me know. I don't think it had any more info the last time I checked, and certainly my notes from their site does not disclose any more information.

Some in the USSR? In fact wasn't Ti difficult to get during the cold war, with the USSR being the primary source? So we cooked up schemes to tap into their distribution pipelines with the USSR becoming our primary source? Wasn't there a NOVA program about this ? Were the Cubans involved in this?

Georger, I don't know about the Cubans but you are right on the other points.  The need for TI in the USA greatly increased around 1960 as the North American B-70 aircraft and the Lockheed SR-71 series of aircraft started coming into use.  And the proposed SST would have used TI.

The TV program you refer to may have been a recent one on the History Channel on cable discussing the CIA's activities.

I think the Cubans and Mexico were involved in the pipeline for rare metals from the USSR needed here during the Cold War. Some of that development work was done in Nevada at Area-51. But you also had rare metals being used in munition development programs, by the Navy, in atomic energy programs etc all being developed during the same period. Since the number of sources for obtaining these rare materials on Earth is limited with few sources in North America, foreign sources became crucial. The particles found on the tie during this period puts the tie in this context - somewhere with someone. Aircraft industry, naval industry, munitions, atomic industry ... ? Several of those particles look machined. Others like something you would find in a processing context. It is highly unlikely those particles originated at Woolworth's or due to contamination in some FBI office or at the A&W!

Due to the specialised nature of these particles, these particles might match samples of rare materials in somebody's industry or government registry from that period.     

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on April 14, 2016, 02:07:22 PM
The Bismuth found on the tie makes me think machine shop. So do the turned Aluminum spirals.

Bismuth is used as a lubricant in cutting certain hard metals. Would a Titanium foundry be using Bismuth?

377
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on April 14, 2016, 02:16:43 PM
Would be interesting to have Normans NB 8 rig (now at WA History Museum) be analysed by Tom and Al to see if it too has the metals found on the tie. Might indicate that the source was Norman's machine shop. If uniformly distributed on the upper surface of the rig it would suggest that the rig was contaminated at the machine shop and not from DBC's tie.

377
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on April 14, 2016, 02:24:07 PM
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Would be interesting to have Normans NB 8 rig (now at WA History Museum) be analysed by Tom and Al to see if it too has the metals found on the tie. Might indicate that the source was Norman's machine shop. If uniformly distributed on the upper surface of the rig it would suggest that the rig was contaminated at the machine shop and not from DBC's tie.

377

That's an interesting thought!@

That could provide a direct "tie", pardon the pun. Tom & Allen tried to find a source. That was one source they didn't try. I think the Hayden source was not known at the time but the chutes as the source of the aprticles maybe should have been considered, if it wasn't.

You could be 100% right!  ;)
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 14, 2016, 07:27:59 PM
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Would be interesting to have Normans NB 8 rig (now at WA History Museum) be analyzed by Tom and Al to see if it too has the metals found on the tie...

377

Mark you continue to Drive Me Crazy with your fixation on the NB-8. Norman did not have one. He had a Pioneer, with a 26-foot Steinthaul canopy, which is what is in the WSHM.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on April 14, 2016, 11:44:50 PM
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Would be interesting to have Normans NB 8 rig (now at WA History Museum) be analyzed by Tom and Al to see if it too has the metals found on the tie...

377

Mark you continue to Drive Me Crazy with your fixation on the NB-8. Norman did not have one. He had a Pioneer, with a 26-foot Steinthaul canopy, which is what is in the WSHM.

Im getting sleepy! The chute he put on and took would be the chute that left particles on his tie, not a chute he left behind and never had on?  :-\
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on April 15, 2016, 01:47:59 PM
Norman ran a machine shop that did work for Boeing. The chutes were stored in the same building his shop was in. Its possible that both of Normans chutes had the exotic metals on them and Cooper tie was contaminated from contact with the rigs. The rig left behind that is now at the WA History Museum should be tested by Tom and Al.

377
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on April 15, 2016, 01:56:28 PM
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Norman ran a machine shop that did work for Boeing. The chutes were stored in the same building his shop was in. Its possible that both of Normans chutes had the exotic metals on them and Cooper tie was contaminated from contact with the rigs. The rig left behind that is now at the WA History Museum should be tested by Tom and Al.

377

That is a good idea.  And if that parachute can not be made available for testing, perhaps there is something else from Norman's shop that still exists and was exposed to the same environment as the chutes that can be tested.  Did all of Norman's employees, assuming that he had some, make it back to work after the Thanksgiving break?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on April 15, 2016, 01:57:00 PM
Bruce wrote: "Mark you continue to Drive Me Crazy with your fixation on the NB-8. Norman did not have one. He had a Pioneer, with a 26-foot Steinthaul canopy, which is what is in the WSHM."

I stand corrected Bruce, but the error is inconsequential in this context. I just want to know if either or both of Normans rigs might have picked up Titanium, Aluminum and Bismuth from Norman's machine shop. Doesn't matter what kind of rigs they were. Just want to know if they were the source of tie metals.

377
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 15, 2016, 03:26:25 PM
As georger stated, how much touching, or transfer was involved with the other back pack? the only chute that was left behind he put his hands all over was the emergency front pack. that could possibly have deposits on it.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on April 15, 2016, 03:53:03 PM
If the exotic metals found on the tie material came from Norman's machine shop then it indicates nothing about where Cooper worked.

377
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on April 15, 2016, 04:18:09 PM
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If the exotic metals found on the tie material came from Norman's machine shop then it indicates nothing about where Cooper worked.

377

On the contrary, it means that Cooper could have worked in Norman's machine shop or a similar operation.  How it got on Cooper's tie, assuming that is Cooper's tie in the first place, is another matter.  Of course, if it got on Norman's parachutes and then was transferred to the tie from the parachute Cooper took, it says nothing about where Cooper worked.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on April 15, 2016, 04:36:55 PM
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If the exotic metals found on the tie material came from Norman's machine shop then it indicates nothing about where Cooper worked.

377

On the contrary, it means that Cooper could have worked in Norman's machine shop or a similar operation.  How it got on Cooper's tie, assuming that is Cooper's tie in the first place, is another matter.  Of course, if it got on Norman's parachutes and then was transferred to the tie from the parachute Cooper took, it says nothing about where Cooper worked.

And the same for the chutes Cossey packed/supplied?

Hayden's chutes have had an extensive "tour" since they were given to Cooper. If the source is Hayden's chutes who is to say the source was Hayden's machine shop? The 727 itself has been dismissed as the possible source?

Who is going to do the sampling and the SEM work?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on April 15, 2016, 05:40:08 PM

Georger wrote: "Who is going to do the sampling and the SEM work?"

Tom and Al would be good choices. They did the tie work and own their own SEMS. I chatted over beers with them in Portland about the hassles in owning and operating old SEMS no longer supported by mfrs. Man were those guys resourceful, even down to sub-board level component and IC replacement, making parts, etc. Good guys. Smart and amiable.

377
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 15, 2016, 08:37:46 PM
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Bruce wrote: "Mark you continue to Drive Me Crazy with your fixation on the NB-8. Norman did not have one. He had a Pioneer, with a 26-foot Steinthaul canopy, which is what is in the WSHM."

I stand corrected Bruce, but the error is inconsequential in this context. I just want to know if either or both of Normans rigs might have picked up Titanium, Aluminum and Bismuth from Norman's machine shop. Doesn't matter what kind of rigs they were. Just want to know if they were the source of tie metals.

377

Understood.

t'anks.
Title: Sem particles on the chute
Post by: Tom Kaye on April 27, 2016, 11:37:52 AM
Guys,

I am really happy to say that testing the chute is a good idea, bravo!! If Cooper pulled off his tie early, and any of the chutes landed on the tie sitting on the seat, it could have transferred particles.  Going in we would have to agree that it would take a lot of Ti particles on the chute to get a few to transfer over.  If 377 wanted to get down there we could supply him with the right stuff.

Tom Kaye
Title: Re: Sem particles on the chute
Post by: georger on April 27, 2016, 01:04:32 PM
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Guys,

I am really happy to say that testing the chute is a good idea, bravo!! If Cooper pulled off his tie early, and any of the chutes landed on the tie sitting on the seat, it could have transferred particles.  Going in we would have to agree that it would take a lot of Ti particles on the chute to get a few to transfer over.  If 377 wanted to get down there we could supply him with the right stuff. Anything less amounts to pure "cro·ny·ism".  :)

Tom Kaye

If somebody is going to do lab analysis on the chute(s) it must be somebody NEW who has real qualifications and lab affiliation. "Nice guy" is not a qualification.

Is your goal science or more photo ops/movie? Don't compromise science for personal promotion.

 ;)

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 27, 2016, 04:10:20 PM
Isn't the first step finding out if Hayden was actually around Ti?
Title: Re: Sem particles on the chute
Post by: georger on April 27, 2016, 04:12:36 PM
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Guys,

I am really happy to say that testing the chute is a good idea, bravo!! If Cooper pulled off his tie early, and any of the chutes landed on the tie sitting on the seat, it could have transferred particles.  Going in we would have to agree that it would take a lot of Ti particles on the chute to get a few to transfer over.  If 377 wanted to get down there we could supply him with the right stuff.

Tom Kaye

The provenance for this goes clear back to 2011. Snow & 377 suggested a possible association between chute(s) and tie particles, as per the below. I picked up on it and commented. Tom evidently was doing other things and didnt see this? Tom never commented. The topic went no further at DZ because people were busy posting other things of interest to them. Thus, the topic got dropped. But, the association idea has been there for a long time and apparently nobody thought to do some actual sampling at Seattle when the tie sampling waas being done  ... so now in 2016 it comes up again as a NEW/OLD idea reborn.

377  (F 666)

Nov 11, 2011, 1:57 PM
Post #28421 of 58140 (50916 views)
Shortcut
          Norman's shop [In reply to]
 
________________________________________
Georger wrote:
Quote:
377 is ALWAYS looking for some obscure
improbable explanation for the ordinary ?
attorney gobblewobble.

In the real world, the moment Cooper pulled
that chute out to cut lines, that chute contained
and distributed particulate matter unquestionably,
which is distributed to everything in the area
including Cooper's tie, whether he was wearing it or
just nearby. Cossey's chute is probably the source
for some of the particles found on the tie -not all
but some.

What matterials are to be found in Cossey shop
or packing area?

Its common sense.

Georger,

Did you miss the part where the two Cooper chutes were allegedly taken to the plane from Norman Hayden (who then owned and still runs a machine shop), not from Cossey's rigging loft? Hayden still has the main chute not used, with Cossey's signature on the packing card. It is stored in his machine shop.

Norman Hayden worked on stuff for Boeing. Dunno if he was machining pure titanium pre Norjack but it's sure worth asking.

Snow suggests:

Quote:
first: TK doesn't have the provenance of the Rigs right. Someone needs to educate the scientist

two: We have another piece of gear that was on the plane with Cooper. Hayden's rig. It was also alongside the rig that cooper actually took, for some unknown length of time (years?)

So: the obvious scientist thing to do:

TK has to analyze the cloth on Hayden's rig for Titanium.

377




Farflung

Nov 11, 2011, 3:33 PM
Post #28425 of 58140 (50882 views)
Shortcut
          Provenance [In reply to]
 
________________________________________
So you may find out that the titanium shaving came from Hayden or Cossey through an act of transference or whatever. Back to square zero.

If it turns out that neither of them ever touched titanium then the race continues with a search of aerospacey and biomedically based industries as some indicator of where that necktie had spent some of its existence. I’m sure a favorite company will be located and someone will remember a real squirrely guy that others secretly thought was Cooper but never mentioned before.

Never mind the provenance of the necktie. Did Cooper buy the thing the day before? Why switch from a tie tack to a clasp? What was on the back of the tie? Doesn’t matter.

One twenty dollar bill will nuke all other pursuits for what they have been which may be described as tangential under the most honorable of terms or pure BS in more realistic. Why are all the suspects suddenly associated with the machining of exotic metals? If a vane from an ostrich feather was discovered on the tie, how many suspects would suddenly be discovered to have a background performing as drag queens?

If some DNA matches someone it is game over, no matter where they worked or what they normally dressed like. If some fingerprints match it will be the same thing.

If it turns out Hayden supplied the chutes and they were identical, the sage selection of a superior rig should go out the window but it will still walk and even run a few miles without a head. Once these stories are hatched they don’t die easy.

   
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on April 27, 2016, 04:14:15 PM
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Isn't the first step finding out if Hayden was actually around Ti?

Hayden's chutes could have picked up particles during their history prior to Hayden. The challenge was to have thought about this, as per the below from 2011, when it mattered.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 27, 2016, 04:16:19 PM
what if the tie wasn't Cooper's?
Title: Re: Sem particles on the chute
Post by: Tom Kaye on April 27, 2016, 07:11:02 PM


If somebody is going to do lab analysis on the chute(s) it must be somebody NEW who has real qualifications and lab affiliation. "Nice guy" is not a qualification.

Is your goal science or more photo ops/movie? Don't compromise science for personal promotion.

 ;)
[/quote]

Ah classic Georger, offers to help are met with complete hostility. Ok Georger, go see if you can find a qualified scientist with an SEM that meets your standards. Seems I was the best you could come up with in 2008 but I am sure your circle of professional scientists is much bigger now. ;)

Tom Kaye
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on April 27, 2016, 07:40:37 PM
Nice to see you on the forum Tom. please give my best to Al and Carol.

You raised a good point about how dense the population of metals on the rigs would have to be to transfer the amounts observed on the tie. I think it's reasonable to assume that the tie had only fleeting contact with the rigs.

The Bismuth along with non alloyed Ti has got to narrow the field of possible sources quite a bit. I've done a lot of reading about where and how Bismuth is used and haven't come up with anything especially helpful. It has been used as a machining lubricant for use with hard steel alloys.

I am still amazed you and Al can keep those old orphan SEMs running. That takes real resourcefulness.

Hope we will get a chance to share a beer again. really enjoyed doing that in Portland. Hope all is well.

377
Title: Re: Sem particles on the chute
Post by: georger on April 28, 2016, 12:38:42 AM
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If somebody is going to do lab analysis on the chute(s) it must be somebody NEW who has real qualifications and lab affiliation. "Nice guy" is not a qualification.

Is your goal science or more photo ops/movie? Don't compromise science for personal promotion.

 ;)

Ah classic Georger, offers to help are met with complete hostility. Ok Georger, go see if you can find a qualified scientist with an SEM that meets your standards. Seems I was the best you could come up with in 2008 but I am sure your circle of professional scientists is much bigger now. ;)
Tom Kaye
[/quote]


All I am saying is new blood with a new approach is needed, imho. Everything else was laid out and explained years ago. You can read it all on Dropzone. Examining the chutes and comparing with tie (particles) was suggested years ago even before Snowmman and Mark's DZ post above in 2011, followed by Farflung's observation.

Tom, it is now 2016! Is there any clock on this work? Didn't I ask the same question several times after waiting months back in 2008?

I don't remember that this project was supposed to take forever, with you (and 377?) having exclusive perpetual rights. When did 377 join your team?

Maybe the Chinese will start their own project next month and finish in ten days?   :) Or, maybe this is a perpetual project and that was never clear? Who owns these samples - you or the government? Or, if you own all of the samples then you probably can take forever. 377 owns a Cooper bill. Does he own some of your samples (soon)?




Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Tom Kaye on April 28, 2016, 01:40:31 AM
Hi 377 and the rest of the crew,

Yes the bismuth is a continuing mystery. Some were shaped like little octagons which was also unusual. The only thing I could come up with was glitter makeup so I am forced to come to the highly scientific conclusion Cooper was a womanizer! :)  There are still the unidentified particles on the tie. I was hoping after all these years that someone would come up with a firm ID but it hasn't happened.

There is a new guy that has been emailing me that is tracking down the Timet connection. He is actually talking to people that worked in or around the company near that time. He seems sharp and serious and does not want to get involved on this forum. 

From what I gather they are still shooting the big Cooper documentary. Last time I talked to them they still hadn't gotten any cooperation from the FBI on the Amboy chute. I also found out that the main people have yet another hot Cooper suspect so stay tuned....

I hope we do another Cooper Conference some day and we can have that beer!

Thanks,
Tom
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 28, 2016, 03:55:09 AM
Tom, always good to see you on these pages, even though The Cranky One is still, well, cranky and busting your chops.

As for the Big Docu, I called their production team a few weeks ago and they told me the broadcast date has been pushed back to June, maybe September. I don't know any of the details of what they are presenting, but it will clearly not include a frank discussion of the FBI's investigation with members of the Bureau, which is what I was calling for and still actively champion.

Sad to hear that they have reverted to Suspect Chasing.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on April 28, 2016, 01:26:48 PM
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Tom, always good to see you on these pages, even though The Cranky One is still, well, cranky and busting your chops.

As for the Big Docu, I called their production team a few weeks ago and they told me the broadcast date has been pushed back to June, maybe September. I don't know any of the details of what they are presenting, but it will clearly not include a frank discussion of the FBI's investigation with members of the Bureau, which is what I was calling for and still actively champion.

Sad to hear that they have reverted to Suspect Chasing.

Todays headline reads: "DB Cooper Was Womanizer" - says Burke Museum Paleontologist!

Or, the Telemundo version:

Gringo DB Cooper was Kidnapping & Raping Our Women! - says Burke Museum Impresario Researcher

 ;)

Title: Re: Sem particles on the chute
Post by: georger on April 28, 2016, 03:30:44 PM
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If somebody is going to do lab analysis on the chute(s) it must be somebody NEW who has real qualifications and lab affiliation. "Nice guy" is not a qualification.

Is your goal science or more photo ops/movie? Don't compromise science for personal promotion.

 ;)

Ah classic Georger, offers to help are met with complete hostility. Ok Georger, go see if you can find a qualified scientist with an SEM that meets your standards. Seems I was the best you could come up with in 2008 but I am sure your circle of professional scientists is much bigger now. ;)

Tom Kaye
[/quote]

We are doing the best we can... !
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on April 28, 2016, 03:45:51 PM
Quote
There is a new guy that has been emailing me that is tracking down the Timet connection. He is actually talking to people that worked in or around the company near that time. He seems sharp and serious and does not want to get involved on this forum.

Sonds like Reichenbach  8)
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on April 28, 2016, 04:43:25 PM
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Quote
There is a new guy that has been emailing me that is tracking down the Timet connection. He is actually talking to people that worked in or around the company near that time. He seems sharp and serious and does not want to get involved on this forum.

Sonds like Reichenbach  8)

Something tells me Cooper wasn't too worried about forensics. If he was technically savvy ? If he was not  a technically savvy person? The particles may only be a distraction. It's the prints and the dna that penetrates through everything.
 
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Parrotheadvol on April 28, 2016, 11:40:32 PM
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I also found out that the main people have yet another hot Cooper suspect so stay tuned....



So, exactly who are the "main people"? FBI?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on April 29, 2016, 12:30:41 AM
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I also found out that the main people have yet another hot Cooper suspect so stay tuned....


ok... we speak in code


So, exactly who are the "main people"? FBI?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Parrotheadvol on July 03, 2016, 04:34:21 PM
Bruce - I just purchased the kindle version of your book. I'm flying to Canada on Wednesday / Back on Friday and figured I needed some reading material while on a flight that I really don't want to take. I'll let you know what I think when finished. I still plan on buying the signed copy as well, my lazy ass just hasn't got around to sending you a check. I'll try and take care of that soon as well.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on July 03, 2016, 04:41:35 PM
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Bruce - I just purchased the kindle version of your book. I'm flying to Canada on Wednesday / Back on Friday and figured I needed some reading material while on a flight that I really don't want to take. I'll let you know what I think when finished. I still plan on buying the signed copy as well, my lazy ass just hasn't got around to sending you a check. I'll try and take care of that soon as well.


Don't try and jump out the back of the plane  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Parrotheadvol on July 03, 2016, 05:10:36 PM
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Bruce - I just purchased the kindle version of your book. I'm flying to Canada on Wednesday / Back on Friday and figured I needed some reading material while on a flight that I really don't want to take. I'll let you know what I think when finished. I still plan on buying the signed copy as well, my lazy ass just hasn't got around to sending you a check. I'll try and take care of that soon as well.


Don't try and jump out the back of the plane  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

There's not enough money in the world to make me jump out of a perfectly good airplane!!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 04, 2016, 01:50:15 AM
Thanks, Parrot. Enjoy, and say hello to "Oh, Canada," for me. I applied there for "Landed Immigration" status twice, and never got in! Long story - worthy of at least two Labatt Cinque-aunts. When I lived in Nashville, I auditioned to sing the Canadian National Anthem. My Canadian wife was pretty impressed. But not enough to move to Nashville...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on July 05, 2016, 04:35:55 PM
Parrothead Vol wrote: "There's not enough money in the world to make me jump out of a perfectly good airplane!!
"

Jumpships are almost never perfectly good airplanes.

From a 2008 NTSB report:

The Safety Board's review of parachute operations accidents since 1980 identified the following recurring safety issues:

Inadequate aircraft inspection and maintenance;
Pilot performance deficiencies in basic airmanship tasks, such as preflight inspections, weight and balance calculations, and emergency and recovery procedures; and
Inadequate FAA oversight and direct surveillance of parachute operations.

377
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Parrotheadvol on July 05, 2016, 05:51:12 PM
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Parrothead Vol wrote: "There's not enough money in the world to make me jump out of a perfectly good airplane!!
"

Jumpships are almost never perfectly good airplanes.

From a 2008 NTSB report:

The Safety Board's review of parachute operations accidents since 1980 identified the following recurring safety issues:

Inadequate aircraft inspection and maintenance;
Pilot performance deficiencies in basic airmanship tasks, such as preflight inspections, weight and balance calculations, and emergency and recovery procedures; and
Inadequate FAA oversight and direct surveillance of parachute operations.

377

OK. Point well take. I will rephrase by saying that there is not enough money in the world to make me jump out of a plane that I am under the impression will make a perfectly safe landing. In other words, I just don't have the balls to do what you do. :)
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MarkBennett on July 13, 2016, 12:10:22 AM
Vicki, in her non-stop sleuthing, discovered that Marla published her book today.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=DB%27s+niece&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3ADB%27s+niece

It's pretty clear she rushed it out.  It's listed as "Unedited", and it is.  I downloaded the Kindle version and skimmed it.

It's her story as we've heard it before.   There are a few parts I snickered out -- how "Jane Smith" friended her on Facebook and asked her to come onto DZ and read the comments.  Hee. Hee.  But, the part I thought was interesting was kid of peels back the curtain what it's like to deal with the FBI -- her conversations and emails with Eng and how they responded to her.  I was hoping to figure out what about her story was so different in her story that got them interested, but I didn't find it.  I don't think even Marla knows.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on July 13, 2016, 12:33:16 AM
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Vicki, in her non-stop sleuthing, discovered that Marla published her book today.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=DB%27s+niece&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3ADB%27s+niece

It's pretty clear she rushed it out.  It's listed as "Unedited", and it is.  I downloaded the Kindle version and skimmed it.

It's her story as we've heard it before.   There are a few parts I snickered out -- how "Jane Smith" friended her on Facebook and asked her to come onto DZ and read the comments.  Hee. Hee.  But, the part I thought was interesting was kid of peels back the curtain what it's like to deal with the FBI -- her conversations and emails with Eng and how they responded to her.  I was hoping to figure out what about her story was so different in her story that got them interested, but I didn't find it.  I don't think even Marla knows.

Of course! What other option does she have? Her appearance on the program was a fiasco. Fire Sale immediately!

By the same token are Gray and his publisher rushing to set up an 'arrangement' with Senator Tea Party in Washington DC? I cant see Gray giving up. He is too heavily invested also.

Any serious investor must now recalculate the odds.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on July 13, 2016, 01:05:48 AM
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Vicki, in her non-stop sleuthing, discovered that Marla published her book today.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=DB%27s+niece&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3ADB%27s+niece

It's pretty clear she rushed it out.  It's listed as "Unedited", and it is.  I downloaded the Kindle version and skimmed it.

It's her story as we've heard it before.   There are a few parts I snickered out -- how "Jane Smith" friended her on Facebook and asked her to come onto DZ and read the comments.  Hee. Hee.  But, the part I thought was interesting was kid of peels back the curtain what it's like to deal with the FBI -- her conversations and emails with Eng and how they responded to her.  I was hoping to figure out what about her story was so different in her story that got them interested, but I didn't find it.  I don't think even Marla knows.

A tale of two books on Amazon:

1.  DB's Niece (In the Raw, Unedited!): A Memoir, Paperback, by Marla Wynn Cooper, $44.44 new.

2.  Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens, Paperback, by J. M. Barrie, $0.01 new.

Did Amazon give away free weed today during the Prime event?  Or is there another more bizarre explanation for the difference in prices between Marla's book and a classic?

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 13, 2016, 01:45:50 AM
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Vicki, in her non-stop sleuthing, discovered that Marla published her book today.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=DB%27s+niece&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3ADB%27s+niece

It's pretty clear she rushed it out.  It's listed as "Unedited", and it is.  I downloaded the Kindle version and skimmed it.

It's her story as we've heard it before.   There are a few parts I snickered out -- how "Jane Smith" friended her on Facebook and asked her to come onto DZ and read the comments.  Hee. Hee.  But, the part I thought was interesting was kid of peels back the curtain what it's like to deal with the FBI -- her conversations and emails with Eng and how they responded to her.  I was hoping to figure out what about her story was so different in her story that got them interested, but I didn't find it.  I don't think even Marla knows.

What do you think of Arlen Dorney's explanation for Marla's success in 2011? Specifically, the role the undercover FBI agent played.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on July 13, 2016, 02:05:56 AM
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Vicki, in her non-stop sleuthing, discovered that Marla published her book today.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=DB%27s+niece&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3ADB%27s+niece

It's pretty clear she rushed it out.  It's listed as "Unedited", and it is.  I downloaded the Kindle version and skimmed it.

It's her story as we've heard it before.   There are a few parts I snickered out -- how "Jane Smith" friended her on Facebook and asked her to come onto DZ and read the comments.  Hee. Hee.  But, the part I thought was interesting was kid of peels back the curtain what it's like to deal with the FBI -- her conversations and emails with Eng and how they responded to her.  I was hoping to figure out what about her story was so different in her story that got them interested, but I didn't find it.  I don't think even Marla knows.

A tale of two books on Amazon:

1.  DB's Niece (In the Raw, Unedited!): A Memoir, Paperback, by Marla Wynn Cooper, $44.44 new.

2.  Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens, Paperback, by J. M. Barrie, $0.01 new.

Did Amazon give away free weed today during the Prime event?  Or is there another more bizarre explanation for the difference in prices between Marla's book and a classic?

Recall: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Family-waits-on-toothbrush-for-break-in-D-B-2353231.php
Family waits on LD toothbrush dna for break in D.B. Cooper case ...

"DNA samples from the 1971 hijacker's JCPenney clip-on tie do not match a sample given by one of Lynn Doyle Cooper's daughters, his niece said Tuesday. But the FBI has said L.D. Cooper remains at least a person of interest."

and "Marla Wynn Cooper, the niece of L.D. Cooper, on Tuesday said FBI agent Curtis Eng recently told her that after he receives the toothbrush fingerprint report from the crime lab, he plans to close the case."
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MarkBennett on July 13, 2016, 09:52:21 AM
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Vicki, in her non-stop sleuthing, discovered that Marla published her book today.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=DB%27s+niece&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3ADB%27s+niece

It's pretty clear she rushed it out.  It's listed as "Unedited", and it is.  I downloaded the Kindle version and skimmed it.

It's her story as we've heard it before.   There are a few parts I snickered out -- how "Jane Smith" friended her on Facebook and asked her to come onto DZ and read the comments.  Hee. Hee.  But, the part I thought was interesting was kid of peels back the curtain what it's like to deal with the FBI -- her conversations and emails with Eng and how they responded to her.  I was hoping to figure out what about her story was so different in her story that got them interested, but I didn't find it.  I don't think even Marla knows.

What do you think of Arlen Dorney's explanation for Marla's success in 2011? Specifically, the role the undercover FBI agent played.

I didn't read that part that closely.  I need to go back and read it more closely.

I agree that maybe being brought to them by other law enforcement got the FBI to give it a closer look than what it would have if it were an anonymous person.  But, they doesn't explain why they put resources into it and started looking for her family members.  On the surface, her case doesn't appear to have anything more to go on than a lot of other suspects -- unless she told them something that had never been made public.  The way the FBI jumped on her story was way different than the way they reacted to other stories.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 13, 2016, 03:52:27 PM
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I agree that maybe being brought to them by other law enforcement got the FBI to give it a closer look than what it would have if it were an anonymous person.  But, they doesn't explain why they put resources into it and started looking for her family members.  On the surface, her case doesn't appear to have anything more to go on than a lot of other suspects -- unless she told them something that had never been made public.  The way the FBI jumped on her story was way different than the way they reacted to other stories.


Another explanation, Mark, is that the FBI realized that they could use Marla to sell a story that they wanted sold, ie: the DB Cooper case is solved, and he's dead and buried in Sisters, Oregon.

As I understand from Marla, Arlen, Alex Hannaford, et al., the Marla/LD Cooper dossier was delivered to the desk of Curtis Eng in 2010 and it sat for many months. What Curtis and the Bureau did during that time is unknown.

But we do know that by the spring of 2011 the FBI in Seattle was on the Marla train, big time. Investigators were at work in Eugene, Oregon, at least at Santa Claus' house; polygraphs were given, at least to Marla; evidence collected, such as DNA swabs from LD Cooper's daughters in Sparks, Nevada; interviews conducted. By June 2011, Curtis had concluded that LD Cooper was his "most promising" suspect - or was ready to parade out this Marla ploy as a way to convince the world that he had solved the case - or his superiors were ready to cloak the Marla charade in his name, all in the purpose of disposing the DB Cooper case even if it meant throwing Eng under the bus.

In response, Eng may have trotted out the Al Di caper as an end run around this whole affair. Or someone else in the FBI did, and let it appear that Eng was Al Di. 

So, Mark, moving to the present era - what do you think of the timing of the FBI closing the case, just when the History Channel makes a Big Splash on Norjak. Coincidence????

Along those lines, does anyone know the History Channel's budget for this 4-hour docu? Anybody know where the money came from? Does anyone think the FBI may have kicked in a few bucks? Any coincidence that 40 retired FBI guys participated? Does anyone think that any retirees received a few bucks in the 25% "availability" payments on their pensions, as outlined by former special agent Bob Sale in his luncheon with Sail and me at the SYC a few years back.

Just askin'...

...anybody think this case is really closed?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on July 13, 2016, 04:09:21 PM
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I agree that maybe being brought to them by other law enforcement got the FBI to give it a closer look than what it would have if it were an anonymous person.  But, they doesn't explain why they put resources into it and started looking for her family members.  On the surface, her case doesn't appear to have anything more to go on than a lot of other suspects -- unless she told them something that had never been made public.  The way the FBI jumped on her story was way different than the way they reacted to other stories.


Another explanation, Mark, is that the FBI realized that they could use Marla to sell a story that they wanted sold, ie: the DB Cooper case is solved, and he's dead and buried in Sisters, Oregon.

As I understand from Marla, Arlen, Alex Hannaford, et al., the Marla/LD Cooper dossier was delivered to the desk of Curtis Eng in 2010 and it sat for many months. What Curtis and the Bureau did during that time is unknown.

But we do know that by the spring of 2011 the FBI in Seattle was on the Marla train, big time. Investigators were at work in Eugene, Oregon, at least at Santa Claus' house; polygraphs were given, at least to Marla; evidence collected, such as DNA swabs from LD Cooper's daughters in Sparks, Nevada; interviews conducted. By June 2011, Curtis had concluded that LD Cooper was his "most promising" suspect - or was ready to parade out this Marla ploy as a way to convince the world that he had solved the case - or his superiors were ready to cloak the Marla charade in his name, all in the purpose of disposing the DB Cooper case even if it meant throwing Eng under the bus.

In response, Eng may have trotted out the Al Di caper as an end run around this whole affair. Or someone else in the FBI did, and let it appear that Eng was Al Di. 

So, Mark, moving to the present era - what do you think of the timing of the FBI closing the case, just when the History Channel makes a Big Splash on Norjak. Coincidence????

Along those lines, does anyone know the History Channel's budget for this 4-hour docu? Anybody know where the money came from? Does anyone think the FBI may have kicked in a few bucks? Any coincidence that 40 retired FBI guys participated? Does anyone think that any retirees received a few bucks in the 25% "availability" payments on their pensions, as outlined by former special agent Bob Sale in his luncheon with Sail and me at the SYC a few years back.

Just askin'...

...anybody think this case is really closed?

Did you not hear?  Believe? When Eng announced through Marla to the world in 2011 that the FBI was closing the Cooper case?  It certainly was heard at DZ - we discussed it all! Probes were made. Marla was asked multiple times by multiple people and she confirmed on every occasion in spite of her own case being closed down.  "The FBI is closing the case after this." That is the stance the FBI has been in ever since. Never mind anything said by Blevins to the contrary. "I would be skeptical about anything Blevins says - very highly skeptical" (Geoffrey Gray 2009)

So in essence the case has been closed since 2011. Nothing has really changed for you in the meantime has it? And nothing will change as of this date. The world goes on just as it did before only people wake up to the status quo which has existed ever since 2011. As you always say: "I sleep until noon"!  :))  And everything else is just wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MarkBennett on July 13, 2016, 04:36:49 PM
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Just askin'...

...anybody think this case is really closed?

Ever since 2011, I've had the impression the FBI was not going to look at anything unless someone found a parachute, a body or some of the money.  That is still the case today.

The only difference is the case is out of the Seattle office and there is no SA permanently assigned to it.  The change seems mostly administrative to me.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on July 13, 2016, 05:21:30 PM
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Just askin'...

...anybody think this case is really closed?

Ever since 2011, I've had the impression the FBI was not going to look at anything unless someone found a parachute, a body or some of the money.  That is still the case today.

The only difference is the case is out of the Seattle office and there is no SA permanently assigned to it.  The change seems mostly administrative to me.

Basically, the case is closed unless someone can provide trial ready evidence, bodies, etc., that will stand up at the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 13, 2016, 08:08:42 PM
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... But, the part I thought was interesting was kid of peels back the curtain what it's like to deal with the FBI -- her conversations and emails with Eng and how they responded to her.  I was hoping to figure out what about her story was so different in her story that got them interested, but I didn't find it.  I don't think even Marla knows.


Still thinking about Marla, and your question, Mark, of what it was that got Uncle LD to the head of the suspect line. I'd love to hear from Marla, now, what she thinks of the FBI. But back in 2011, this is what she said about the Bureau then, and why she thought they thought Uncle LD was the most promising suspect:

1. Marla's story was the only first-person account of a suspect's activities immediately after the skyjacking.
2. Marla passed a polygraph
3. Marla said that Eng told her that the FBI had shown Florence Schaffner a pix of Uncle LD and that it was the closest resemblance "of any of the pictures that you've shown me," or words to that effect. Initially, in Portland at the Symposium, Marla had told me that the FA was Tina, but when I said I had heard the same quote about "closest resemblance" attributed to Florence by GG, she back-tracked and indicated that she must have gotten the names mixed-up.
4. LD was a life-long resident of the Pacific Northwest, and thus knew about the LZ potentials.
5. Uncle Dewey worked at Boeing in the late 1960s, and must have learned about the 727 aft stairs capabilities at that time.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 13, 2016, 08:19:50 PM
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Ever since 2011, I've had the impression the FBI was not going to look at anything unless someone found a parachute, a body or some of the money.  That is still the case today.

The only difference is the case is out of the Seattle office and there is no SA permanently assigned to it.  The change seems mostly administrative to me.


I agree. I also agree with Curtis Eng's perspective that his job is to bring probative evidence to the US Attorney that has the capacity to convict a suspect.

But I do think that mission also has to include assisting others in finding that type of evidence, such as developing DNA phenotypes, clarifying and amplifying the pool of fingerprint samples taken in Reno, and explaining inconsistencies in FBI actions, such as why no one from the evidentiary collection team in Reno remembers seeing the tie, as described by Russ Calame and Bernie Rhodes in the their book, DB Cooper - The Real McCoy.

On a personal level, I was dismayed by Curtis' cheeky response at the end, when he waved at the boxes and said, "Goodbye evidence," in a sing-songy manner. Sounded like he was mocking the whole affair.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MarkBennett on July 13, 2016, 08:29:25 PM
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On a personal level, I was dismayed by Curtis' cheeky response at the end, when he waved at the boxes and said, "Goodbye evidence," in a sing-songy manner. Sounded like he was mocking the whole affair.

Yeah...but he was being filmed and may have felt like he needed to give it some kind of send off. 

Curtis in looking back on it, might have wished he'd have done that differently.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 13, 2016, 08:31:56 PM
True. Maybe he was still thinking about Marla....
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MarkBennett on July 13, 2016, 08:58:58 PM
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... But, the part I thought was interesting was kid of peels back the curtain what it's like to deal with the FBI -- her conversations and emails with Eng and how they responded to her.  I was hoping to figure out what about her story was so different in her story that got them interested, but I didn't find it.  I don't think even Marla knows.


Still thinking about Marla, and your question, Mark, of what it was that got Uncle LD to the head of the suspect line. I'd love to hear from Marla, now, what she thinks of the FBI. But back in 2011, this is what she said about the Bureau then, and why she thought they thought Uncle LD was the most promising suspect:

1. Marla's story was the only first-person account of a suspect's activities immediately after the skyjacking.
2. Marla passed a polygraph
3. Marla said that Eng told her that the FBI had shown Florence Schaffner a pix of Uncle LD and that it was the closest resemblance "of any of the pictures that you've shown me," or words to that effect. Initially, in Portland at the Symposium, Marla had told me that the FA was Tina, but when I said I had heard the same quote about "closest resemblance" attributed to Florence by GG, she back-tracked and indicated that she must have gotten the names mixed-up.
4. LD was a life-long resident of the Pacific Northwest, and thus knew about the LZ potentials.
5. Uncle Dewey worked at Boeing in the late 1960s, and must have learned about the 727 aft stairs capabilities at that time.

Good reasons.  Still kind of hoping there was more than that.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on July 13, 2016, 09:06:54 PM
I think it was the same that got attention to Colbert, law enforcement backing....that's the best referral anyone can get to open there eye's...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 13, 2016, 09:30:12 PM
I think you're correct, Shut
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MarkBennett on July 17, 2016, 12:01:52 AM
I finished Marla's book.  I wanted to add a few thoughts.

First, I agree with Bruce.  The FBI was willing to look into her story because it came from law enforcement, and even then wouldn't do it until she decided to go public.

Her father she suggested she write the book "Remember about your uncle hijacking that plane?  Remember how he showed up hurt?".  Why didn't he write the book?  Marla didn't remember those things.  I wonder if her dad knew he was not long for this world, and actually died a couple of months later.

Marla recovered some memories, but most of those were corroborated by others.  Her dad reminded her the conversations with Dewey about "we hijacked a plane!".  Her memories of LD being badly hurt that day were also corroborated by a cousin where he went to recover that day.

That's really all she had directly.  Other memories that couldn't be corroborated (like the DB Cooper comic) are more problematic.  She did write something I suspected....A blogger who had a contact said she had told the FBI something that had never been made public and that's why LD was the "promising suspect".  Unfortunately, she doesn't know what that is either.  That rings true since when the FBI called LD "promising", they already knew the DNA didn't match and they couldn't pull any usable fingerprints.

So, she's not that different from others.  She's confident she knows who DB Cooper, but can't put him on the plane.

One interesting part -- that doesn't name names.  Someone named "Jane Smith" trolled her Facebook page, directing her to negative comments about her on DZ.  We know Jane Smith is Blevins.  She believes Jane Smith also shared personal information about her (her dirty laundry about he children and ex-husbands), but I didn't think that was Robert.  I'm sure we'll find out when he posts it on the other site.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on July 17, 2016, 12:29:10 AM
I don't believe Marla what so ever. she remembers to much detail. her story has changed over the years. two different landing area's. her grandmothers house was way to small to have rooms, and people staying there. nothing adds up credible.

Her interview on the latest show was an embarrassment. it was extremely obvious she was throwing things into the story trying to seek approval, or verification, but they simply didn't buy into it either. some people just don't know when to stop...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 17, 2016, 04:13:10 AM
In Marla's defense, the editing of her interview appeared choppy to me, meaning that the cutting and splicing could have amplified her wackiness.

Now, she could have been talking coo-coo anyway, at length, and the editing was just designed to spare us more misery.

But the core of her ramblings are worth considering and investigating further; namely the political impacts of the skyjacking and the notion that Norjak was a rogue operation designed to force safety changes upon the aviation industry.

At the very least, I think we would be well-served if we developed a time-line for safety upgrades in the airlines business. I had a hefty conversation about this subject with Larry Finegold, as he lives in Israel part-time and flies El Al with regularity.

Besides the Cooper Vane, not much happened in the next year or two, but a shift in American politics did occur that resulted in improved airlines safety and a decrease in skyjackings - Cooper, Cuba, and others. I know this is Bob Knoss territory, but BK might be on the right track!

The political need for a well-known, cataclysmic event, like Norjak, was real. Remember, the legacy airlines needed the federal government to "nationalize" airline safety so that all airlines had to comply with all the regulations at the same time, and all airports had to participate as well. Otherwise, the low-cost airlines would skimp, and the problems wouldn't go away. Additionally, making the policy implementation nationwide meant that the airlines could pass the same level of costs off to their passengers at the same time. Such a deal. How could any airlines exec say no?

Federal orchestration of airline safety continues to this day! Gawd Bless the TSA!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on July 17, 2016, 01:17:07 PM
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In Marla's defense, the editing of her interview appeared choppy to me, meaning that the cutting and splicing could have amplified her wackiness.

Now, she could have been talking coo-coo anyway, at length, and the editing was just designed to spare us more misery.

But the core of her ramblings are worth considering and investigating further; namely the political impacts of the skyjacking and the notion that Norjak was a rogue operation designed to force safety changes upon the aviation industry.

At the very least, I think we would be well-served if we developed a time-line for safety upgrades in the airlines business. I had a hefty conversation about this subject with Larry Finegold, as he lives in Israel part-time and flies El Al with regularity.

Besides the Cooper Vane, not much happened in the next year or two, but a shift in American politics did occur that resulted in improved airlines safety and a decrease in skyjackings - Cooper, Cuba, and others. I know this is Bob Knoss territory, but BK might be on the right track!

The political need for a well-known, cataclysmic event, like Norjak, was real. Remember, the legacy airlines needed the federal government to "nationalize" airline safety so that all airlines had to comply with all the regulations at the same time, and all airports had to participate as well. Otherwise, the low-cost airlines would skimp, and the problems wouldn't go away. Additionally, making the policy implementation nationwide meant that the airlines could pass the same level of costs off to their passengers at the same time. Such a deal. How could any airlines exec say no?

Federal orchestration of airline safety continues to this day! Gawd Bless the TSA!

Bruce, I regularly flew the airlines in the 1960s and 1970s when this fairy tale you have repeated above was suppose to have happened.

There is absolutely nothing to the claim that the Cooper matter was a staged hijacking.  Even if you got that word direct from Richard Nixon himself, it is pure BS.  Hijackers were routinely shot if at all possible, and sometimes with significant collateral damage as a member of this thread can attest.

Plain and simple, the Cooper hijacking was a two-bit crime where the criminal got lucky for several hours.  When he stepped off those stairs, he had to deal with Mother Nature and he lost.  If Cooper's body had been found, this whole matter would have been forgotten by the end of 1971.

It continues to be a mystery to me why the FBI was looking for Cooper 20+ miles from where he, in all probability, jumped.   
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MarkBennett on July 17, 2016, 02:26:10 PM
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It continues to be a mystery to me why the FBI was looking for Cooper 20+ miles from where he, in all probability, jumped.   

I hope you'll write more on your thread you created a couple of weeks ago about the flight path and the jump.  I've read your posts for several years and I confess I can't always keep up, but I was doing fairly well on that thread, so I'm looking forward to updates.

Since they haven't found anything after all this time, it's a good idea to raise the question "Are we looking in the wrong place?".

Reminds me of the joke about the drunk looking for his keys:

Man:  What are you doing?
Drunk:  I lost my keys over there.
Man:  If you lost your keys over there, why are you looking here?
Drunk:  The light is better over here.

 :)) :)) :))

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on July 17, 2016, 03:04:06 PM
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It continues to be a mystery to me why the FBI was looking for Cooper 20+ miles from where he, in all probability, jumped.   

I hope you'll write more on your thread you created a couple of weeks ago about the flight path and the jump.  I've read your posts for several years and I confess I can't always keep up, but I was doing fairly well on that thread, so I'm looking forward to updates.

Since they haven't found anything after all this time, it's a good idea to raise the question "Are we looking in the wrong place?".

Reminds me of the joke about the drunk looking for his keys:

Man:  What are you doing?
Drunk:  I lost my keys over there.
Man:  If you lost your keys over there, why are you looking here?
Drunk:  The light is better over here.

 :)) :)) :))

I do need to get back to writing and fast.  So I am going to post a very brief item on the Tina Bar area later today and then I need to get some other matters, which are not speculation, posted.  Then I will go back to the jump itself and stay on that subject.

Your story above is of special interest to me.  I read a similar story in some book, I can't remember the author's name (I thought it was Carlos Castaneda but it apparently isn't), but it is on page 125 of a book that was only about 127 pages long.  I apparently can remember the story and page numbers better than names.

Anyway, the author was describing some people who were searching for a city of gold and were unsuccessful.  The author wrote that, in fact, there was no city of gold but that the people in question had found a beautiful location to search for it. :))

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MarkBennett on July 17, 2016, 03:19:02 PM
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It continues to be a mystery to me why the FBI was looking for Cooper 20+ miles from where he, in all probability, jumped.   

I hope you'll write more on your thread you created a couple of weeks ago about the flight path and the jump.  I've read your posts for several years and I confess I can't always keep up, but I was doing fairly well on that thread, so I'm looking forward to updates.

Since they haven't found anything after all this time, it's a good idea to raise the question "Are we looking in the wrong place?".

Reminds me of the joke about the drunk looking for his keys:

Man:  What are you doing?
Drunk:  I lost my keys over there.
Man:  If you lost your keys over there, why are you looking here?
Drunk:  The light is better over here.

 :)) :)) :))

I do need to get back to writing and fast.  So I am going to post a very brief item on the Tina Bar area later today and then I need to get some other matters, which are not speculation, posted.  Then I will go back to the jump itself and stay on that subject.

Your story above is of special interest to me.  I read a similar story in some book, I can't remember the author's name (I thought it was Carlos Castaneda but it apparently isn't), but it is on page 125 of a book that was only about 127 pages long.  I apparently can remember the story and page numbers better than names.

Anyway, the author was describing some people who were searching for a city of gold and were unsuccessful.  The author wrote that, in fact, there was no city of gold but that the people in question had found a beautiful location to search for it. :))

I think the group searching for Amelia Earhart near Nikumaroro (formerly Gardner) Island might be doing the same thing.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 17, 2016, 04:46:40 PM
I vote that we start looking for DB Cooper on Maui. Summer has yet to arrive in Cooper Country. Today is cool and cloudy. High temps about 70. Overcast skies. Shutter's hot tub is the only way I could swimming this summer!

I'll have to email Bryan Woodruff and see if he's interested in moving the Ariel Store to a beach of his choosing on Hawaii. After all, if he's going to have to get permits and stuff, why not do it right?!

Now that would give the Travel Channel something to film, eh?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 17, 2016, 04:48:59 PM
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Bruce, I regularly flew the airlines in the 1960s and 1970s when this fairy tale you have repeated above was suppose to have happened.
   

Okay, but it means that we need to start developing the time line. What happened when, and why.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on July 17, 2016, 06:36:49 PM
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It continues to be a mystery to me why the FBI was looking for Cooper 20+ miles from where he, in all probability, jumped.   

I hope you'll write more on your thread you created a couple of weeks ago about the flight path and the jump.  I've read your posts for several years and I confess I can't always keep up, but I was doing fairly well on that thread, so I'm looking forward to updates.

Since they haven't found anything after all this time, it's a good idea to raise the question "Are we looking in the wrong place?".

Reminds me of the joke about the drunk looking for his keys:

Man:  What are you doing?
Drunk:  I lost my keys over there.
Man:  If you lost your keys over there, why are you looking here?
Drunk:  The light is better over here.

 :)) :)) :))

I do need to get back to writing and fast.  So I am going to post a very brief item on the Tina Bar area later today and then I need to get some other matters, which are not speculation, posted.  Then I will go back to the jump itself and stay on that subject.

Your story above is of special interest to me.  I read a similar story in some book, I can't remember the author's name (I thought it was Carlos Castaneda but it apparently isn't), but it is on page 125 of a book that was only about 127 pages long.  I apparently can remember the story and page numbers better than names.

Anyway, the author was describing some people who were searching for a city of gold and were unsuccessful.  The author wrote that, in fact, there was no city of gold but that the people in question had found a beautiful location to search for it. :))

I think the group searching for Amelia Earhart near Nikumaroro (formerly Gardner) Island might be doing the same thing.

Totally agree with you.  She never said anything about going anywhere but Howland Island.  It was a three hour flight from Howland to Gardner at normal cruise speed (about 150 MPH).  If Amelia and Fred Noonan had arrived in the vicinity of Howland with that much fuel, I am sure that they would have been able to do an appropriate search and find Howland.

My guess is that they were doing a dog-leg approach to Howland and didn't fly it properly.  They were arriving just after dawn, had already taken their last star sight some distance away, and needed to wait a bit for the sun or other navigational body they were using at that point to get into a position that they could use.  And time ran out before they could get all that done.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MarkBennett on July 18, 2016, 11:12:46 AM
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I don't believe Marla what so ever. she remembers to much detail. her story has changed over the years. two different landing area's. her grandmothers house was way to small to have rooms, and people staying there. nothing adds up credible.

Her interview on the latest show was an embarrassment. it was extremely obvious she was throwing things into the story trying to seek approval, or verification, but they simply didn't buy into it either. some people just don't know when to stop...

I emailed Marla after reading her book and invited her to come on here.  That's probably a non-starter after her DZ experience -- and that was primarily bringing her up her personal history and contacting her kids and exes.

As far as her grandmother's house goes, she said it had three bedrooms and was probably around 1000 sq ft or a little less.  She wanted to know if you were aware that her old house had been recycled as part of a B&B that anyone can stay in. 

Like I said before Marla really only knows about what her father told her and what she saw on Thanksgiving morning.  Anything she says about flight path, jump spot, how her brothers got out, conspiracy, etc.  is just speculation on her part and no better than anyone else's. 

Whether you believe it or not, my question is what did the FBI pull from her story that caused them to put time, money and resources into? 
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on July 18, 2016, 11:21:54 AM
I have to find it, but the house is hardly 1000 S/F. she posted a picture of it. the house was an old lumber shack. one room. it was very similar to a picture I posted prior to her picture. I fear another Blevins type of a problem with Marla in the picture. she is welcome to come here, but I don't see any good from it. LD is another suspect considered to be a non credible lead....

something 12 feet wide by 70 feet long isn't even enough for 1000 S/F......144 x 840 inches divided by 144 = 840 S/F
those shacks were built for men working, and sleeping...they were smaller than 1000 S/F. they were brought in by railroad
lifted off, and placed in area's where they were working.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on July 18, 2016, 12:17:09 PM
Ok, I did some quick research and found that flatcars back in that period were about 43 feet in length. the shacks were shorter than the flatcar leaving this shack to be under 400 S/F. 3 bedrooms, kitchen, or living room, bathroom, where do you fit it all?

Some of them were bigger, but grannies house seems to be about 12 feet wide, I can't tell how deep it is, but it's consistent with smaller ones as shown in the photo. the first photo has Marla's grandmothers house shown in the upper right.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MarkBennett on July 18, 2016, 01:41:46 PM
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I have to find it, but the house is hardly 1000 S/F. she posted a picture of it. the house was an old lumber shack. one room. it was very similar to a picture I posted prior to her picture. I fear another Blevins type of a problem with Marla in the picture. she is welcome to come here, but I don't see any good from it. LD is another suspect considered to be a non credible lead....

something 12 feet wide by 70 feet long isn't even enough for 1000 S/F......144 x 840 inches divided by 144 = 840 S/F
those shacks were built for men working, and sleeping...they were smaller than 1000 S/F. they were brought in by railroad
lifted off, and placed in area's where they were working.

That could be right. Marla said "no more than 1000 sq ft".
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on July 18, 2016, 02:52:19 PM
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I have to find it, but the house is hardly 1000 S/F. she posted a picture of it. the house was an old lumber shack. one room. it was very similar to a picture I posted prior to her picture. I fear another Blevins type of a problem with Marla in the picture. she is welcome to come here, but I don't see any good from it. LD is another suspect considered to be a non credible lead....

something 12 feet wide by 70 feet long isn't even enough for 1000 S/F......144 x 840 inches divided by 144 = 840 S/F
those shacks were built for men working, and sleeping...they were smaller than 1000 S/F. they were brought in by railroad
lifted off, and placed in area's where they were working.

That could be right. Marla said "no more than 1000 sq ft".


The point above goes against Marla's claim. it would be somewhere around 400 S/F based on the photo I see. dramatic changes need to apply for additional rooms. originally, they had not insulation, drywall, bathrooms, nothing. just a basic wood structure frame. so, a lot of work would be required to bring it up to any living standards as these were only meant for temporary quarters when built. some can still be found as sheds, or single car garages etc. based on the photo, it appears to be pretty run down, and in disrepair. that's typical of people with little money. I'm sure they did what they could to survive.

More photo's need to be provided showing either a side view, or interior of the home. they typically used a wood burning stove to heat the home, and with additional rooms? not very comfortable IMO.

I'll stick with the FBI on most of these suspects.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 18, 2016, 05:17:25 PM
I would love to see the whole unadulterated Marla interview with Fuentes and Jensen - just to hear what ol Twisty Butt had to say. The editing of her interview was a lot like Chop Suey.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on July 18, 2016, 07:34:14 PM
It's occurred to me that perhaps Marla wasn't quite as wacky as the HC interview made her appear. It was obviously not continuous speech but spliced together segments.

She looked different than she did in Portland. Still quite attractive but somehow different? Nose job? Anyone else notice?

377

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 19, 2016, 01:24:11 AM
I didn't even recognize her when she first appeared on screen. It was only when the graphic name identification appeared on the TV that I knew who is it was. I was watching it again, today, and I still can't figure out what is different. Lost weight? Her body posture was very different, too.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on July 19, 2016, 02:17:17 AM
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It's occurred to me that perhaps Marla wasn't quite as wacky as the HC interview made her appear. It was obviously not continuous speech but spliced together segments.

She looked different than she did in Portland. Still quite attractive but somehow different? Nose job? Anyone else notice?

377

She looks older and more defensive. Flighty and rambling in her thoughts. The conspiracy stuff classified her story. Its probably the last time Marla will get serious air time. She's done.     
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 25, 2016, 11:49:47 PM
3rd Edition Update

Here's the new opener for those who have the 2nd Edition and want to keep it current.

DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking


On July 8, 2016 the FBI closed the DB Cooper case, the only unsolved skyjacking in the history of the United States. In fact, the DB Cooper hijacking is the only unsolved skyjacking in all of humanity, and DB Cooper is known world-wide. The FBI threw in the towel in typical federal fashion—they didn't tell the public until the following week, when it was more convenient and best served their public image.

I received the FBI's announcement from Ayn Dietrich-Williams, the Public Information Officer (PIO) of the Bureau's Seattle Division. In part, it read:

   “The mystery surrounding the hijacking of a Northwest Orient Airlines flight in November 1971 by a still-unknown individual resulted in significant international attention and a decades-long manhunt. Although the FBI appreciated the immense number of tips provided by members of    the public, none to date have resulted in a definitive identification of the hijacker...
   
   “...the FBI will no longer actively investigate this case...it is administratively closed.”


I received my copy of the announcement via email on the evening of Monday July 11, 2016, during the latter part of the History Channel's four-hour retrospective documentary on DB Cooper. In fact, the announcement was exquisitely timed: the news arrived just as the last part of the broadcast played upon the TV screen, showing Curtis Eng, the case agent for the Cooper case, boxing-up all the evidence and shipping it to FBI headquarters in Washington, D.C. Clearly, the FBI wanted to piggy-back its Cooper closure onto the History Channel's dramatic event.

The FBI says that they closed the case because they ran out of credible leads, meaning that they depleted their list of suspects. They didn't close the DB Cooper case because they ran out of evidence. In fact, not only have they given the collected evidence a less-than-robust examination, they have lost all the good stuff. To wit: they lost the cigarette butts that DB Cooper left on abroad the aircraft, and that would be the ideal source of Cooper's DNA via testing the dried saliva.

Worse, none of the 66 sets of fingerprints the FBI retrieved from the cabin area has revealed any useful data. Really? Over 600 fingerprints and not one is usable? In the age of facial recognition software, touch DNA, and hi-tech gizmos displayed on every TV cop show, the so-called stymied FBI investigation is hard to swallow.

This kind of Keystone Cops approach to the evidence dates back to the night of the skyjacking when the retrieval team in Reno, Nevada, where the plane stopped for refueling, the FBI failed to collect any of the in-flight magazines that Cooper reportedly fingered during the hours the aircraft circled Seattle before landing at SEA-TAC airport. Surely these glossy magazines could have provided some viable clues.

Nevertheless, the FBI says they worked diligently before they decided to quit:

   “Following one of the longest and most exhaustive investigations in our history, on July 8, 2016, the FBI redirected resources allocated to the “DB Cooper” case, in order to focus on other investigative priorities. During the course of the 45-year NORJAK investigation, the FBI exhaustively reviewed all credible leads, coordinated between multiple field offices to conduct searches, collected all available evidence, and interviewed all identified witnesses...
   
But if the work was so exhausting and the FBI had so many other responsibility, why did they wait for the History Channel to deliver the news? Subsequent emails from Dietrich-Williams told me that the FBI was planning on using the History Channel documentary to showcase the end of the Cooper investigation as early as February, 2016.

   “History Channel asked us (to participate in their documentary) in the summer of 2015 and we declined. But then in January, we received the results of FBI Laboratory testing of items related to a person considered a possible match to the hijacker. The results came back and did not    resolve this case. Those items were related to the only new individual to come to our attention in the last five or so years. There are no additional leads to pursue, neither for that individual nor any others. For each of the other individuals we've considered, investigative results have either not supported continued consideration of them as a match to the 1971 hijacker or not resolved the case. Starting in February, the FBI began the process of transferring evidence and files to FBIHQ for archiving.”    

The above also tells us that the FBI had a suspect they considered so tantalizing that they spent five years investigating him, only to conclude in January 2016 he wasn't DB Cooper. But, why not tell us who this super-suspect was, especially since the case is officially closed. I suppose the feds want to protect the privacy of the individual, which is fair, but couldn't they at least tell the world some of the key elements of the investigation that made this guy so attractive?

There is also an over-riding feeling that the History Channel exhausted the public's ability to care about DB Cooper. Perhaps the FBI figured the public would collectively throw up their hands and say: Well, if Hollywood can't solve the DB Cooper case, and the FBI can't either, I guess it's too tough.

   “...the FBI agreed to participate with the History Channel, in particular, because its longer-than-average feature covered a variety of experiences, views, and theories related to the 1971 hijacking. The FBI felt this approach might provide context for our decision to reallocate resources. Lastly, that comprehensive approach made us feel we could do "one and done" so we can all move on to higher priority matters.”


Part of the exhaustion was due, in part, to the History Channel spending half its broadcast on a Cooper suspect named Robert W. Rackstraw, who was on nobody's radar screen except for a group of well-connected TV journalists, spearheaded by Thomas J Colbert and Jim Forbes, and fortified by forty retired FBI agents who formed a “Cold Case Team.” Colbert and Company apparently convinced the History Channel to produce their four-hour epic, but, HC's own production efforts delivered convincing arguments that Rackstraw was not DB Cooper. It effect, the HC took the air out of the Colbert and Company, although the Rackstraw story is a compelling tale and will be summarized in a latter chapter. Nevertheless, I agree with the History Channel that Rackstraw is not DB Cooper.

But, something critical was missing from the History Channel documentary, and it's exactly the same thing that is missing from the FBI's Cooper investigation, and that's a passionate attention to the physical evidence.

Besides the screw-ups on the fingerprints and DNA, the FBI has yet to determine how the only other pieces of physical evidence came into being: namely the three bundles of ransom money that were found on a Columbia River beach eight years after the skyjacking. To this day, no one knows how the money got there, or when.

Compounding the intrigue, the bundles were later discovered to be lying atop a shard field forty-feet wide and three-feet deep that contained thousands of pieces of money, some as large as a business card, but most were itsy-bitsy fragments, perhaps about the size of a dime or an M&M. So, if we understood how these pieces of money arrived at the beach, known to the locals as Tina Bar, we'd know more about the fate of DB Cooper.

Remember, nothing has ever been found of the case – no body, clothes, parachutes, briefcase or bomb, and only the Tina Bar money from the $200,000 Cooper received.

To understand these dynamics, and to be truly able to evaluate the FBI's decision to close the case, we need to know what happened back on November 24, 1971 when DB Cooper jumped out of his airplane, and what has transpired since then.

Hence, we need a case study.

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 07, 2016, 09:47:54 PM
3rd Edition Update:

Rackstraw as Cooper, the chapter, 8. 6. 16


Chapter 3?

July 10, 2016 – The Day Cooper World Stood Still


Cooper World flipped upside-down on July 10, 2016. First, we learned that the FBI was closing Norjak. Secondly, we learned about a super-dooper suspect by the name of Robert Wesley Rackstraw (RWR) that no one had ever heard about, and all of this was co-joined by the History Channel's four-hour, two-part documentary on DB Cooper, which aired that night and the following evening.

We'll talk about the closing of the case in the next chapter, but first we need to understand the drama that brought Rackstraw to the forefront. The History Channel documentary featured Rackstraw and the man who had spent five years investigating him, Thomas J. Colbert. Colbert is a Hollywood TV producer and documentarian, and for his research Colbert magnetized forty associates, which included a dozen retired FBI agents; another two dozen retired law enforcement officials, detectives and private investigators; and a seasoned LA investigative journalist named Jim Forbes. Together they formed what Colbert has termed his “Cold Case Team” (CCT).

In 2012, Colbert heard about Rackstraw-as-Cooper from one of his investigative contacts in Las Vegas, a videographer named Rich Kashanski. Colbert partnered with Forbes and hit the streets, hard. Quickly they learned that Rackstraw, a roguish soldier who fought in Vietnam, had the “skill sets” needed to do Norjak. Colbert and Forbes went to the FBI with their information, but the feds were unimpressed. But Colbert knew he had a good story—perhaps the breakthrough to the DB Cooper case—and pitched the story to the History Channel, who bought it.

In turn, the History Channel hired an independent production company, LMNO, to do the actual filming and script development. LMNO then hired a few freelance producers to lead their team. One of these individuals, Ted Skillman, contacted me. Beginning in the spring of 2015, I spent several hours on the phone with Ted, tutoring him on the intricacies of Norjak. As a result, LMNO filmed me and this book as part of the History Channel's four-hour retrospective on DB Cooper.

A major part of this documentary was the Rackstraw story as presented by Colbert and Company. Nevertheless, LMNO hired two other individuals to lead their storytelling on screen, fellows they called “interlocutors” who would function as tour guides to the DB Cooper story. One, Tom Fuentes, is the former Associate Director of the FBI for International Operations, and the second is a young journalist named Bill Jensen.

I did not know of LMNO's specifics until just hours before I was to appear on camera. An associate producer, Allison Berg, phoned me to say that her film crew was coming with a former FBI official, Mr. Fuentes. I was shocked. A FBI guy is going to interview me? I should be interviewing him!

Nevertheless, I did as I was asked and sat before the cameras as Fuentes and Jensen asked me questions about Norjak.

As events would demonstrate, the History Channel documentary had former FBI agents interviewing other FBI agents about the DB Cooper case—but only about the suspects—and no one asked about the evidence, or lack thereof. In essence, the History Channel show was a huge soap opera, starring Rackstraw, Tom Colbert, and his Cold Case Team.

Further, the FBI declined LMNO's initial invitation to be part of the documentary, but in January 2016 they reversed their decision. In fact, by early 2016 they had decided to close Norjak and deemed the History Channel as the ideal means of informing the American public. Hence, the last ten minutes of the broadcast shows Curtis Eng and other FBI officials boxing-up the evidence, and waving it “goodbye” as it shipped to FBI HQ in Washington, D.C. As a result, we had FBI agents swirling around the entire documentary almost as if they were chasing each other's tail, and in the next chapter we'll examine their stated reasons for the closure and its merits.

But in the meantime, could Robert W Rackstraw, who is still alive, actually be DB Cooper? The short answer is “No.” But the more complete answer is a bit more complicated, and needs to be told because the drama swirling on the screen colors related events, particularly the closing of the case and the focus of the documentary.

In the History Channel broadcast, Rackstraw-as-Cooper is denied, with Fuentes and Jensen clearly stating that they do not believe RWR is DB Cooper. Additionally, Curtis Eng appears unconvinced of Rackstraw-as-Cooper as well, and the broadcast has 15 minutes of memorable coverage of Tina Mucklow examining pictures of Rackstraw and listening to video tapes of him speaking, after which she concludes, “No, that's not him.”

Adding to the dismissal of Rackstraw-as-Cooper, passenger Bill Mitchell was unable to identify DB Cooper in a “six-pack” of photos of skyjacking suspects. Oddly, Mitchell incorrectly identified Rackstraw as Richard McCoy, and Colbert's CCT say this happened because Mitchell had an unconscious association of his skyjacker, DB Cooper, to a known skyjacker, Richard McCoy.

But at the show's conclusion, even Jim Forbes declares that he no longer believes that Robert W. Rackstraw is DB Cooper.

Colbert appears absolutely deflated in these scenes, and in an email to me he described his experience as a “deer in the headlight” moment. Nevertheless, to this day Colbert still believes that Rackstraw is DB Cooper.

Colbert believes passionately, though, and in addition to the two hours of Rackstraw-as-Cooper material shown on the History Channel, Colbert has written a hefty book on RWR, co-authored with Tom Szollosi. It's juicy and gripping, clearly portraying Rackstraw as a bad dude who never followed the rules.

But Rackstraw adds to the intrigue because he also told lots of people that he was DB Cooper, including TV producers from KNBC in Los Angeles. However, it is now clear that this admission was most likely a gambit designed to distract the world from his on-going trial for the murder of his stepfather, Philip Rackstraw, of which Robert was eventually acquitted.

Colbert and Szollosi show that Rackstraw was probably guilty, and report that his acquittal was the result of mismanagement and malfeasance on the part of the Calaveras County, California prosecutors and Sheriff's Department who lost or mishandled vital evidence.

In fact, one of Rackstraw's supporters and friend, Hollywood producer Vivian Jones, told Colbert, “We all knew he (RWR) killed him.”

Rackstraw's aunt, Betty, was more blunt: “He (RWR) killed my brother.”

Without question, Rackstraw has been a bad egg. He was busted from his rank as lieutenant and discharged from the Army for lying about his non-existent college degree, and in the late 1970s he was arrested and convicted on bank fraud, forgery, and illegal possession of explosives. Colbert and Szollosi also show that Rackstraw was allegedly involved in blowing up a military armory and stealing the weapons and explosives, possibly selling them to terrorist organizations. Added to that are the alleged robberies of guns stores, the theft of at least one airplane, and the bamboozling of a helicopter from the Calaveras County Sheriff's Department, which helps explain why they let Rackstraw off the hook for the death of his stepfather. Rackstraw even reportedly alluded FBI capture on some of these charges by faking a plane crash into Monterrey Bay and flying to a deserted airstrip in Southern California.

But the most compelling of Rackstraw's abilities was his skill as a jungle warrior. In Vietnam Rackstraw was a helicopter pilot and mechanic, but he also volunteered for many rescue missions and hazardous covert operations. Reportedly, Rackstraw even sought out rogue CIA operatives to launch private guerrilla-like raids on the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese. In addition, he had advanced explosive and airborne training.

These “skill sets” put Rackstraw on the top of the pile of suspects for DB Cooper, and in fact, the FBI considered him a prime suspect in the late 1970s, but ultimately dismissed him for reasons that are unclear.

Age is one possibility. Rackstraw was 27 years old in 1971.

Another concern is the lack of tangible evidence. No money, parachute or gear has ever been found in Rackstraw's possession, nor have his fingerprints or DNA been linked to the skyjacking. In fact, the one-hundred pieces of evidence that Colbert and Company says that they have amassed on Rackstraw-as-Cooper is all circumstantial.

Most problematic is the money find at Tina Bar. Colbert and Company say that Brian Ingram's father, Harold Dwayne Ingram, planted the money for Rackstraw at the behest of a Portland gangster named Dick Briggs. They claim Briggs was acting on the command of Rackstraw, who was attempting to prove to the feds that DB Cooper was dead. Remember, if Rackstraw was Cooper as the FBI then suspected—and Cooper was dead because of the money washing up on the beach—then RWR was dead, too, so the feds could stop looking for him.

Also consider that the money was found in February 1980, just after Rackstraw's acquittal for the murder of his stepfather and his bogus disappearance into the waters of the Pacific Ocean, but before his arrest on the bank fraud charges, which he apparently was still trying to beat.

As for the money find, Harold Dwayne Ingram is certainly a strange dude, and his multiple interviews in the History Channel documentary show him to be a guy who has tremendous difficulty telling the truth, or at least the same story twice in a row.

But a plant?

That hypothesis is totally bogus because we know conclusively that Brian's three bundles were found directly above a three-foot deep scatter-field of thousands of money shards, based upon the statements from PIO Dorwin Schreuder and the KATU TV film clips.

When I asked Colbert how he explains this inconsistency, he simply dismissed it with the comment: “I'll let you guys (at the DB Cooper Forum) play in the sand.”

One thing that Colbert and Szollosi make crystal clear is that Rackstraw is a con man. He duped his multiple wives into signing away assets and homes in shaky business deals, and he never paid child support to his first wife for their three kids, at least with a check that never bounced. Most tellingly, that woman calls Rackstraw “Bullshit Bob.”

In addition, in late 1971, RWR was able to impersonate a European “Baron” named Norman de Winter, and bilk dozens of folks in the town of Astoria, Oregon before he disappeared, only to re-appear in Corvallis, Oregon a few days before DB Cooper stole Flight 305.

But proving that Rackstraw was de Winter doesn't make him DB Cooper.

Nevertheless, Colbert states that Rackstraw-as-de Winter had a small plane at his disposal, and feels Rackstraw could have flown into PDX in this plane, or possibly an abandoned airstrip in Woodland—which is ten miles west of Ariel—and used it later as his means of escape from LZ-A. But how the plane got from PDX to the landing strip in Woodland is not explained. When queried in August 2016, Colbert vacillated on the fly-in to PDX and told me his best estimate is that Rackstraw flew to Woodland directly, parked the plane, and then got a ride to PDX.

But this suggests a second party helped with the transport back to the airport. Adding to this conundrum is the truth of the “small plane scenario” rumors that Ariel and Amboy residents love to tell researchers, and seems to be the basis of Colbert's speculation. Although none of these tales have been corroborated they abound in Cooper lore, and the secret airstrips could be in Ariel, Woodland, or just in the imagination of LZ-A residents.

Also troubling is how Rackstraw-as-de Winter could wake up on some frat boy's couch in Corvallis on November 23, the day before the skyjacking, after a weekend of partying and slumming in a stranger's home. RWR then would have to fly into PDX or LZ-A, pick up a black suit, overcoat, a brief case and bomb, and get to the Northwest ticket counter by 2 pm on the next day, November 24. Yes, perhaps it was all prepared days or weeks in advance and stored aboard the aircraft, but the timing is too suspect to accept easily.

Rackstraw's candidacy as DB Cooper is intriguing, but I don't think Robert W. Rackstraw is the Norjak skyjacker. But Tom Colbert and Company certainly make a compelling and dramatic case for RWR. In addition, the intricacies of the drama may lead us to better understand the mysteries of Norjak, in particular the workings of the FBI. After all, why did the feds close the DB Cooper case in the middle of the History Channel broadcast?

It's classic Cooper, and will be discussed next.









Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MarkBennett on August 07, 2016, 10:00:47 PM
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3rd Edition Update:


Most problematic is the money find at Tina Bar. Colbert and Company say that Brian Ingram's father, Harold Dwayne Ingram, planted the money for Rackstraw at the behest of a Portland gangster named Dick Briggs.

Bruce, I didn't get that was Colbert's conclusion.  The way I read it, Colbert asserts that Harold was told where to find the money, not where to plant it.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: brbducksfan on August 07, 2016, 10:15:51 PM
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3rd Edition Update:


Most problematic is the money find at Tina Bar. Colbert and Company say that Brian Ingram's father, Harold Dwayne Ingram, planted the money for Rackstraw at the behest of a Portland gangster named Dick Briggs.

Bruce, I didn't get that was Colbert's conclusion.  The way I read it, Colbert asserts that Harold was told where to find the money, not where to plant it.

FWIW Bruce I agree with Mark's characterization as well.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 08, 2016, 12:24:57 AM
Thanks, guys. I'll check it out.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 09, 2016, 01:04:53 PM
BTW, Duckie, what does FWIW mean?

I don't text, and don't have a smart phone so I only know a few acronyms. I do know:

1. WTF (I even knew this before the movie came out: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot)
2. LOL (just learned it)
3. BTW, of course.
4. SOL (But I never use this term, as I don't believe in luck, just applied consciousness)
5. FUBAR (I'm a Vietnam-era War Protester)
6. SNAFU (see above)
7. TY

That's about it.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on August 09, 2016, 01:28:55 PM
FWIW=for what it's worth

Or, in JT's lexicon: flowing waters implicate Washougal.  ;)

377
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on August 09, 2016, 03:27:44 PM
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FWIW=for what it's worth

Or, in JT's lexicon: flowing waters implicate Washougal.  ;)

377

flowing waters implicate the Pacific Ocean! FWIW! Flowing water implicates the MOON! Maybe JT launched ping pong balls on the Moon and they showed up at TBar 14 hours later.  O0 :))
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on September 05, 2016, 11:46:18 PM
New Book!

Hope everyone had a great Labor Day. I just wanted to officially announce to the forum that I published the Kindle version of my book "Finding DB Cooper (https://www.amazon.com/Finding-DB-Cooper-Americas-Skyjacking-ebook/dp/B01KLBZX90/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1472429776&sr=8-1&keywords=finding+db+cooper&linkCode=ll1&tag=martandr-20&linkId=2d30240872890fcbcaf547cd9222b2a0)" and it's all your fault.

I look forward to the endless mockery to follow for admitting to being one of the scurrilous "book writers."

Thanks to all of you, without this forum the book would never have gotten done. Because of this, any forum member who is willing to admit to being a cheapskate can PM and I'll be happy to send a free pdf version. I'm working on a print version right now, it might take a month or so to index and line-edit.

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on September 06, 2016, 12:53:21 AM
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New Book!

Hope everyone had a great Labor Day. I just wanted to officially announce to the forum that I published the Kindle version of my book "Finding DB Cooper (https://www.amazon.com/Finding-DB-Cooper-Americas-Skyjacking-ebook/dp/B01KLBZX90/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1472429776&sr=8-1&keywords=finding+db+cooper&linkCode=ll1&tag=martandr-20&linkId=2d30240872890fcbcaf547cd9222b2a0)" and it's all your fault.

I look forward to the endless mockery to follow for admitting to being one of the scurrilous "book writers."

Thanks to all of you, without this forum the book would never have gotten done. Because of this, any forum member who is willing to admit to being a cheapskate can PM and I'll be happy to send a free pdf version. I'm working on a print version right now, it might take a month or so to index and line-edit.

Could you outline your book, its contents, and its basic suppositions.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 06, 2016, 01:43:56 AM
Congratulations, Marty. I'll wait for the hard copy version, as I really don't like digital books.

If you'd like to write up a little summary of your book, I'll post it on the Mountain New-WA.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on September 06, 2016, 08:42:37 AM
That'd be great Bruce.

Georger, when I get back from work tonight.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on September 06, 2016, 08:56:34 PM
So, here we go...

 I was looking for a new writing project.  I had just read Skyjack and I had been somewhat interested in this case for years. However, this was my first time diving in (I had a lot of unexpected free time when I lost my job about two years ago, I found researching the case to be cathartic). My goal was to write a novella, as accurate to the evidence as possible, for how this skyjacking was planned, executed and what happened after Cooper left the aircraft. That novella didn’t happen, because I stumbled onto something else.

To be thorough in my research for the novella, I decided to go through all the Cooper books and stories. Norjak, Tosaw’s book, then Kaye’s and Sluggo’s respective websites. What interested me most was the tie evidence found by Kaye. The titanium made pretty much all of the Cooper confessions and theories falsifiable. So I decided to do just that, go through all the Cooper stories and check them against the titanium evidence. From there I figured I could begin my fiction piece.

Cutting to the chase, there was one book that had been ridiculed from the beginning, Max Gunther’s “DB Cooper; what really happened” and the story contained therein was not eliminated by Kaye’s evidence. Gunther’s suspect, “Dan LeClair” was, among other things, a salesman, manager and then executive for several industrial chemical companies in the years before the hijacking.

This revelation happens rather late in the book, so I had to reread the damn thing because I was ignoring important details just trying to get it done. By the time I had reviewed everything, the case seemed very strong, with little contraindicatory evidence.

My book simply makes the connection between the Gunther story and the evidence we know about the case. A nonfiction book was never my intention, so this whole things feels weird to me. In the book, I try to quantify how unlikely it is Gunther’s Dan LeClair and Kaye’s tie analysis would match up. I also take a look at Cooper’s jump, the flight path, and I included all the suspect profiles I’ve been writing over the last two years. My father, a jump-trained Air Force veteran, airline pilot (specifically a 727 pilot), and hyper-literate son of two language teachers, helped with the book immensely. It’s actually our first collaboration.

For a conclusion, I lay out the process by which I believe we can find “Dan LeClair” using available databases such as the US Census (Gunther gives interesting details about Dan LeClair that make this possible). There are other details that can be used to check the story as well. My thesis is falsifiable, since there is a limited pool of suspects to research. I do want to make it clear that I’m limiting my claims. I do not claim to have solved the Cooper hijacking. I believe this is our best lead in the case and worthy of attention. That’s it.

When I finally finish the print edition, it should be nearly 50% larger than the Kindle version. It's going to be a couple of months, so I'd love to hear feedback from anyone who reads the book. (again, just pm me, free pdf version)
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 06, 2016, 10:42:33 PM
Sounds very cool, Andrade1812. And a collaboration with a father who has been a 727 pilot? Even cooler.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on September 07, 2016, 12:02:03 AM
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So, here we go...

 I was looking for a new writing project.  I had just read Skyjack and I had been somewhat interested in this case for years. However, this was my first time diving in (I had a lot of unexpected free time when I lost my job about two years ago, I found researching the case to be cathartic). My goal was to write a novella, as accurate to the evidence as possible, for how this skyjacking was planned, executed and what happened after Cooper left the aircraft. That novella didn’t happen, because I stumbled onto something else.

To be thorough in my research for the novella, I decided to go through all the Cooper books and stories. Norjak, Tosaw’s book, then Kaye’s and Sluggo’s respective websites. What interested me most was the tie evidence found by Kaye. The titanium made pretty much all of the Cooper confessions and theories falsifiable. So I decided to do just that, go through all the Cooper stories and check them against the titanium evidence. From there I figured I could begin my fiction piece.

Cutting to the chase, there was one book that had been ridiculed from the beginning, Max Gunther’s “DB Cooper; what really happened” and the story contained therein was not eliminated by Kaye’s evidence. Gunther’s suspect, “Dan LeClair” was, among other things, a salesman, manager and then executive for several industrial chemical companies in the years before the hijacking.

This revelation happens rather late in the book, so I had to reread the damn thing because I was ignoring important details just trying to get it done. By the time I had reviewed everything, the case seemed very strong, with little contraindicatory evidence.

My book simply makes the connection between the Gunther story and the evidence we know about the case. A nonfiction book was never my intention, so this whole things feels weird to me. In the book, I try to quantify how unlikely it is Gunther’s Dan LeClair and Kaye’s tie analysis would match up. I also take a look at Cooper’s jump, the flight path, and I included all the suspect profiles I’ve been writing over the last two years. My father, a jump-trained Air Force veteran, airline pilot (specifically a 727 pilot), and hyper-literate son of two language teachers, helped with the book immensely. It’s actually our first collaboration.

For a conclusion, I lay out the process by which I believe we can find “Dan LeClair” using available databases such as the US Census (Gunther gives interesting details about Dan LeClair that make this possible). There are other details that can be used to check the story as well. My thesis is falsifiable, since there is a limited pool of suspects to research. I do want to make it clear that I’m limiting my claims. I do not claim to have solved the Cooper hijacking. I believe this is our best lead in the case and worthy of attention. That’s it.

When I finally finish the print edition, it should be nearly 50% larger than the Kindle version. It's going to be a couple of months, so I'd love to hear feedback from anyone who reads the book. (again, just pm me, free pdf version)

Interesting. Gunther's book received some attention at DZ so you might want to do post searches at DZ if you haven't already. Jo tried to tie Weber and Gunther together. Nobody bought that connection. You will find a number of posts by Jo about Gunther back at DZ... that much I recall.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Parrotheadvol on September 07, 2016, 11:40:58 AM
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So, here we go...

 I was looking for a new writing project.  I had just read Skyjack and I had been somewhat interested in this case for years. However, this was my first time diving in (I had a lot of unexpected free time when I lost my job about two years ago, I found researching the case to be cathartic). My goal was to write a novella, as accurate to the evidence as possible, for how this skyjacking was planned, executed and what happened after Cooper left the aircraft. That novella didn’t happen, because I stumbled onto something else.

To be thorough in my research for the novella, I decided to go through all the Cooper books and stories. Norjak, Tosaw’s book, then Kaye’s and Sluggo’s respective websites. What interested me most was the tie evidence found by Kaye. The titanium made pretty much all of the Cooper confessions and theories falsifiable. So I decided to do just that, go through all the Cooper stories and check them against the titanium evidence. From there I figured I could begin my fiction piece.

Cutting to the chase, there was one book that had been ridiculed from the beginning, Max Gunther’s “DB Cooper; what really happened” and the story contained therein was not eliminated by Kaye’s evidence. Gunther’s suspect, “Dan LeClair” was, among other things, a salesman, manager and then executive for several industrial chemical companies in the years before the hijacking.

This revelation happens rather late in the book, so I had to reread the damn thing because I was ignoring important details just trying to get it done. By the time I had reviewed everything, the case seemed very strong, with little contraindicatory evidence.

My book simply makes the connection between the Gunther story and the evidence we know about the case. A nonfiction book was never my intention, so this whole things feels weird to me. In the book, I try to quantify how unlikely it is Gunther’s Dan LeClair and Kaye’s tie analysis would match up. I also take a look at Cooper’s jump, the flight path, and I included all the suspect profiles I’ve been writing over the last two years. My father, a jump-trained Air Force veteran, airline pilot (specifically a 727 pilot), and hyper-literate son of two language teachers, helped with the book immensely. It’s actually our first collaboration.

For a conclusion, I lay out the process by which I believe we can find “Dan LeClair” using available databases such as the US Census (Gunther gives interesting details about Dan LeClair that make this possible). There are other details that can be used to check the story as well. My thesis is falsifiable, since there is a limited pool of suspects to research. I do want to make it clear that I’m limiting my claims. I do not claim to have solved the Cooper hijacking. I believe this is our best lead in the case and worthy of attention. That’s it.

When I finally finish the print edition, it should be nearly 50% larger than the Kindle version. It's going to be a couple of months, so I'd love to hear feedback from anyone who reads the book. (again, just pm me, free pdf version)

I know nothing of LeClair, but I do like the approach of using the evidence from the tie. I'll check out your book soon.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 07, 2016, 09:39:14 PM
A new German crime magazine called STERN, is doing a retrospective on DB Cooper and will include a bit on Duane Weber. Their NY-based photo editor Katharina Poblotzki contacted me today for advice on how to gather Norjak photos, especially from Jo Weber.

I gave her what contact info I had, and leads on authorization. Mag comes out in early October. In German, of course.

If your Deutshe is up to speed, you can also follow a piece on DB Cooper penned by a journalist from Vienna, who interviewed me a few weeks ago while he was on an internship in Portland. Florian Niederndorfer, writing in The Standard.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on September 07, 2016, 09:46:31 PM
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A new German crime magazine called STERN, is doing a retrospective on DB Cooper and will include a bit on Duane Weber. Their NY-based photo editor Katharina Poblotzki contacted me today for advice on how to gather Norjak photos, especially from Jo Weber.

I gave her what contact info I had, and leads on authorization. Mag comes out in early October. In German, of course.

If your Deutshe is up to speed, you can also follow a piece on DB Cooper penned by a journalist from Vienna, who interviewed me a few weeks ago while he was on an internship in Portland. Florian Niederndorfer, writing in The Standard.


I received an email from them, and approved there membership to this forum (Stern)  C:-)
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Win Edson on September 10, 2016, 02:55:49 PM
Does anyone know if Galen Cook ever finished/published his book outlining Wolfgang Gossett as the prime suspect?

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 10, 2016, 04:04:08 PM
Not as far as I know. However, the Gossett treatise developed by John Craig, based on extensive interviews with Galen, is quite comprehensive.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 14, 2016, 10:12:37 PM
3rd Edition Review

I've been working on the 3rd Edition, and I thought a review of the following chapter might be worthwhile since we have so many new voices - and eyeballs - here. If you think I should add anything, or present it in a different manner, please let me know your thoughts. Thanks, BAS.


Chapter 39
Why Can’t The FBI Find DB Cooper?


Is there a cover-up? In the preceding chapters I have cited numerous instances of sloppy police work, systemic deficiencies within the FBI, and problematic decision-making. But does this mean there is an actual attempt to prevent us from knowing the truth of DB Cooper?

I don’t know. I have no direct evidence that supports a cover up. All I have been able to produce is circumstantial evidence that suggests Norjak has been compromised. But I do have a long list of facts, decisions, and behaviors that the FBI needs to explain, regardless of whether the case is closed or not. Here is my top ten questions for the Bureau:

Top Ten Questions for the FBI

1. Cigarette Butts
Where are they?
If lost, is anyone looking for them?
Were they processed for DNA analysis, as indicated by case agent Larry Carr?
If so, where is the paperwork?

2. Ground Search
Why was the initial ground search outsourced only to Sheriff Departments?
Why weren’t there checkpoints and roadblocks established once LZ-A was determined, understood to be approximately 11 pm, November 24, 1971?
Why was the ground search called off on Monday, November 29, 1971?
Why did Seattle FO tell FBI HQ that there was too much snow on the ground to continue, when there was no snow reported in the LZ-A by local officials.

3. Clip-on Tie
Why did it enter the Seattle evidence cache four days after the hijacking?
Where was it for that time?
Was the chain of custody broken?
What does it mean that no one involved in the evidence retrieval could remember the tie?

4. Reno, fingerprints
Who conducted the fingerprint search aboard 305?
What was obtained in that search?
Why weren’t the “In-flight” magazines gathered into evidence?
Have any reconstructions of the fingerprints been undertaken?

5. Reno, behaviors of FBI agents
What happened to cause the memories of the agents on evidence retrieval to be forgetful, fuzzy or in conflict with each other?
Were these agents “victims of some strange post-hypnotic suggestion,” as Bernie Rhodes has written?
Did MKULTRA play a part in Norjak?

6. SOG and 727s
What was the nature of the investigation of SOG troopers regarding Norjak?
What was the role of 727s in the Vietnam War?
Were they used to deploy soldiers into combat?
Did any units utilize techniques similar to those of DB Cooper, ie: jumping from a 727 with flaps at 15, gear down and locked, etc.?

7. Money Retrieval
How many shards of money were found at Tina Bar?
Where are they, currently?
Did the FBI find part of DB Cooper’s briefcase at Tina Bar, as reported by PIO Dorwin Schreuder?
Why was the money found in a highly compressed state?
What kinds of follow-up were done along the Columbia River, i.e.: fishermen interviewed, other sites dug-up, etc.?

8. Richard McCoy
What was he doing in Las Vegas on November 24–25, 1971?
What was he doing there on November 2–3, 1971?
How did he learn the details of hijacking an airplane?
What was his relationship with “Dan Cooper?”
Why does the Seattle FO accept McCoy’s alibi that he was home with family on Thanksgiving, refuting the findings from Salt Lake City FBI agents?

9. Radar Findings
What did SAGE radar record the night of November 24, 1971?
When will the public be able to view its findings?
Did the F-106s following Flight 305 have any radar findings of Cooper or his jump? If not, why not?
Why did NORAD tell Major Dawson to “back off” the F-106s?

10. Earl Cossey
What was the role of Earl Cossey in the Norjak investigation?
Did he own the “back” parachutes delivered to the hijacker?
Did Cossey influence the FBI’s perspective that Cooper was an inexperienced skydiver?
Why did the FBI flip-flop on their assessment of Cooper’s skills?
Why was Cossey murdered?

Besides these specific concerns, there is a more compelling, overarching dynamic that has impacted the case in every dimension, and that is the failure of leadership. At times, no one seems to be in charge of Norjak—certainly in the early stages of the investigation. Farrell was in charge of Seattle-based activities, Manning on the ground near Ariel, Mattson in Portland and later Himmelsbach, and Campbell and his Las Vegas-based crew in Reno. Why didn’t Charlie Farrell jump on a plane and fly to Reno to insure a proper retrieval of evidence, thus minimizing the predictable bureaucratic turf battles that followed?

Additionally, Farrell and his team worked in secrecy, and they still reside there, apparently. Farrell is reported to have penned a 300-page account of his experiences in Norjak, and Geoffrey Gray says he has read it. But my efforts to obtain access to a copy have been met by resistance from the Farrell family, Geoffrey, and the other FBI agents from the Seattle office that I’ve asked to intercede in my behalf.

Similarly, the Norjak case agent at the time of the money find, Ron Nichols, remains silent on the money find, shards, and documentation. Coupled with the stonewalling by Himmelsbach on these controversies, I find the whole situation unacceptable.

Another example of poor supervision is the care given to the evidence that is stored in Seattle. Before being shipped to HQ in 2016, the main pieces were stored loosely in a cardboard box that looked like it once held knickknacks from someone's grandmother’s attic. Concerns over the chain of custody pepper Norjak as well, such as the clip-on tie being torn apart by the Citizen Sleuths. It appears they were able to review physical evidence without any FBI agent present, although Alan Stone refutes that assumption.

Nevertheless, these breaks in the chain of custody are serious concerns. The DBC Forum's 377, an attorney in the Bay Area, offers a cogent view of the matter:

   The FBI has been amazingly cavalier about the handling of physical evidence (in Norjak). It’s not normal practice. As a defense lawyer, when I had my experts examine physical evidence or run lab tests the prosecution enforced strict protocols so that the custody chain was unbroken and fully documented and that contamination or alteration of evidence was prevented.
   Even in minor cases this was how things were handled. I represented a ghetto bar    owner who the cops hated. He was arrested for serving alcohol to a minor. It was a major hassle just to get a sample of the drink which was preserved. My lab had to sign for the sample and document its handling at every step. The prosecution wisely only gave my lab a portion of the sample so that they had a control if my findings were later to be disputed. My client got really lucky. My lab tested zero    alcohol. When the police lab repeated their test they found the same thing. Case dismissed.
   It might be that the FBI has some undisclosed evidence that has been very carefully handled and that is highly probative in identifying Cooper, enough so that a conviction could be secured without any other evidence. Cigarette butts might fit this description. It just makes no sense that they would be ‘lost.’
   Peterson, a highly qualified suspect, was ruled out on DNA. Maybe it wasn’t tie DNA but cigarette DNA which would be more confidently linked to DB Cooper.

In addition, there has been an uncanny passivity to the FBI’s work at times. Ralph Himmelsbach never interviewed Tina even though she moved to Portland after the skyjacking, nor when she received medical treatment. Is this a proper handling of a primary witness in a major case? More troubling, Himmelsbach’s book reveals—and Dorwin Schreuder confirms—that for much of the Norjak era, the Portland FO had a reactionary stance to the investigation, and only responded to leads as they came in to the office. Similarly, Seattle agents, such as Bob Sale and Sid Rubin, have also indicated that the Cooper case was near-dormant in the Seattle FO between the money find in 1980 and the resurgence in the late 1990s.

Further, does silence on the details of the case really serve the investigation? Why didn’t a single FBI agent attend the DB Cooper Symposium in 2011 or 2013? What did that avoidance achieve? What kind of investigatory integrity did that maintain?

At times, it appears that FBI agents don’t talk with one another, either, even when working on the same case. Galen has a telling story on this subject:

   Seems like the NORJAK agents die by the vine, but DB Cooper lives on. The Bureau must hate that. No one ever hears from Carr since he left. He e-mailed me about six months after I started talking with Eng, but Eng wasn’t too enthused that I was still talking with Carr about the case. Led me to believe that the agents aren’t necessarily on the same page, and rather territorial of their own turf, even among other agents.
   
Part of this non-sharing with fellow agents was fostered by J Edgar Hoover. As discussed previously, Hoover awarded cash bonuses to agents who busted tough cases, so field agents had an incentive not to share since it could cost them money. Plus, we have the pressures seeping from the mundane area of internal politics, promotions based upon performance, and assignments determined by one's status within the office, as described by Schreuder, who felt like an outcast in the Portland FO.

As for my relationship with FBI agents, when I ask questions beyond their initial set story, they balk. I call it the “One and Done” scenario. I get one good interview—usually a recitation of their well-rehearsed narrative—then, nothing. Follow-up phone calls and emails go unanswered. Sadly, even Russ Calame seems to be avoiding my calls at this point. Thus, I strongly suspect that what I was told initially was a spin job, and they don’t want me to scratch beneath the surface.

Formal communications with the FBI become strained in 2015. Then, the official policy of the FBI became absolute silence about Norjak unless the media contact was specifically authorized. After years of exchanging increasingly opaque emails with PIO Ayn Dietrich-Williams, she finally stated the obvious on December 7, 2015:

   The FBI’s media policy prohibits discussing ongoing investigations unless a release is specifically thought to have potential benefit to the investigation.
   …I understand your continued interest in our investigation and apologize that I will not be able to share additional information to answer your questions.

Nevertheless, I have not abandoned all hope in the FBI, and I will be providing them with a “Special Edition” of this book, complete with phone numbers and contact information for all of the major figures of the case. At least then, the Bureau will have a comprehensive overview of the case for future investigators to consult.

Of course, they can call me anytime for assistance.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on October 15, 2016, 07:12:15 AM
Quote
9. Radar Findings
What did SAGE radar record the night of November 24, 1971?
When will the public be able to view its findings?
Did the F-106s following Flight 305 have any radar findings of Cooper or his jump? If not, why not?
Why did NORAD tell Major Dawson to “back off” the F-106s?



The Sage radar probably played a very little role in this. since the system is no longer around, I doubt they would have any material surrounding it's involvement on record, or anyway to view anything it would of had stored in it's memory.

Norad could of simply decided that this was a civilian issue. this was 1971, and obviously not how it would be handled today.

Vicki suggested I try contacting Carr thru the DZ. I sent him a PM, he never responded but shows he signed into his account several days after I sent the PM, so he could still be interested in some degree. 

Update: I looked on the DZ and found the message I sent Carr. it was dated November 24, 2014. Carr last signed in on November 24, 2014. interesting date I might add  C:-)
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 15, 2016, 04:45:32 PM
I, too, sent a PM to Larry a few years ago. He responded and asked me to contact him through normal channels, which I assumed was his FBI email address. I did so, but I never heard back.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on October 17, 2016, 01:51:37 PM
Normal ATC X band radar could have painted Coopers echo as he left the 727. I have covered this in prior posts. It's a damned shame we don't have the raw radar tapes. Weather radar can also detect freefalling skydivers.

I have a skydiver friend who is an air traffic controller. He said he could accurately count the number of freefalling skydivers exciting a plane at a distance of 20 miles. He opined that the detectable range might have been greater but there was only one DZ in his radar coverage area.

Boat radars can detect birds many miles away. Tuna boats use this capability to locate fish schools under feeding birds.

http://www.furunousa.com/Company/Targeting-Birds.aspx

http://www.srcinc.com/what-we-do/radar-and-sensors/avian-surveillance-radar.html?utm_campaign=Avian+Radar&utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc&utm_term=%2Bbird+%2Bradar&utm_content=1534509x674461266635288643

http://www.audubon.org/news/how-use-radar-track-birds

A skydiver is a much better reflective target than a bird.

377
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 17, 2016, 04:45:17 PM
Thanks for reposting this information, 377. It's just as valid and enlightening as it was before.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on October 17, 2016, 05:46:45 PM
I have this dream that somewhere, there IS a copy of the raw radar video and we can actually see Cooper's exit.

Most folks think that a person (or a bird) wont show up on radar. They think only metal objects can be effectively painted by radar.

Simply not true. Radar is even used to track insect swarms at surprising distances.

377

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on October 17, 2016, 06:40:52 PM
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I have this dream that somewhere, there IS a copy of the raw radar video and we can actually see Cooper's exit.

Most folks think that a person (or a bird) wont show up on radar. They think only metal objects can be effectively painted by radar.

Simply not true. Radar is even used to track insect swarms at surprising distances.

377

Have you asked your friend if he knows how long the radar tapes of accidents and incidents are retained by the Air Traffic Control people?  Does he know if these tapes are retained separately from the FAA accident and incident files? 

And how are weather radar tapes handled?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on October 17, 2016, 07:25:37 PM
He knew nothing other than when there is an "accident" or "serious incident" in which radar tapes are relevant to an investigation, the tapes are preserved.

He didn't know who holds them or where they are held. He was not working in ATC until many years after 1971.

I don't know if weather radar tapes were routinely made back in 1971. ATC tapes were made.

It's possible that a tape made in 1971 wouldn't even be playable today. I have had even high quality (3M and AMPEX) video and audio tapes shed their oxide coating with age and become useless.

Its just maddening to know that Coopers exit was very likely visible on radar and nobody thought to look.

377



Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on October 19, 2016, 08:53:59 AM
If they are not stored properly they will become useless over time. take VCR's for an example. view one you recorded 15 years ago. tracking lines galore...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on November 11, 2016, 03:02:24 PM
For those of you waiting for the print version of my book, it is now available:

https://www.createspace.com/6502758?ref=1147694&utm_id=6026

(Sorry, my browser is preventing me from inserting the actual link, for some reason)

If you want to order direct from me, PM to get my PayPal ID.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on November 14, 2016, 12:57:16 AM
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For those of you waiting for the print version of my book, it is now available:

https://www.createspace.com/6502758?ref=1147694&utm_id=6026

(Sorry, my browser is preventing me from inserting the actual link, for some reason)

If you want to order direct from me, PM to get my PayPal ID.

You sold another print copy through Amazon tonight.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on November 15, 2016, 02:22:21 AM
Thanks R99, hope it entertains enough to warrant putting up with me for two years.

My father and I worked through your alternate flight path for about a week. He agrees the FBI map "doesn't look right" but he didn't feel right endorsing any flight path without the actual radar data. My interpretation of the FBI map was different; we're still working on a resolution for the second edition.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 15, 2016, 04:59:29 AM
Wow. 2nd edition, and I haven't gotten my copy of the 1st edition, yet!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on November 15, 2016, 01:05:15 PM
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Wow. 2nd edition, and I haven't gotten my copy of the 1st edition, yet!

Long ways down the road. Probably too long to be talking about it.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 29, 2016, 05:19:59 PM
I just received my copy of Finding DB Cooper - Chasing the Last Lead in America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking

Congrats, Marty, and Martin Sr.!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 29, 2016, 07:35:24 PM
Now I have to get a copy of Max Gunther's book.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: RaoulDuke24 on November 30, 2016, 12:52:09 PM
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I just received my copy of Finding DB Cooper - Chasing the Last Lead in America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking

Congrats, Marty, and Martin Sr.!

I just added it to my Amazon wish list. Tis the season for getting cool stuff!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on January 07, 2017, 12:07:32 AM
I have a favor to ask, would anyone who has read all or part of my book... Please give it an honest review on Amazon:

http://amzn.to/2hZAyMW

Thank you.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: sailshaw on January 08, 2017, 09:50:49 AM
Andrade1812  In your book do you find who SB Cooper is? I know it is Sheridan Peterson and he is alive and living in California. He was intervied in the History Channel 4hr program last year and looks healthy. The FLAW I found in his phony alibi to the FBI as to where he was at Norjak time just about proves that he is DB Cooper. Why else would he lie to the FBI and face another Federal Crime charge of lying to the FBI that would have jail time. Curtis Eng the Seattle Agent is letting Sheridan go by closing the case. I think that is because Sheridan was working for the CIA in Vietnam and he gets a free pass from Curtis Eng even though the FLAW proves he lied about where he was. Why would DB lie to the FBI, because he thought he could get away with it and he has for all these years.
Just thought you would like to know the real facts in the case. The Seattle FBI are stonewalling and closing the case to avoid any further questions. They don't think we can handle the truth.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on January 08, 2017, 01:23:25 PM
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Andrade1812  In your book do you find who SB Cooper is? I know it is Sheridan Peterson and he is alive and living in California. He was intervied in the History Channel 4hr program last year and looks healthy. The FLAW I found in his phony alibi to the FBI as to where he was at Norjak time just about proves that he is DB Cooper. Why else would he lie to the FBI and face another Federal Crime charge of lying to the FBI that would have jail time. Curtis Eng the Seattle Agent is letting Sheridan go by closing the case. I think that is because Sheridan was working for the CIA in Vietnam and he gets a free pass from Curtis Eng even though the FLAW proves he lied about where he was. Why would DB lie to the FBI, because he thought he could get away with it and he has for all these years.
Just thought you would like to know the real facts in the case. The Seattle FBI are stonewalling and closing the case to avoid any further questions. They don't think we can handle the truth.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

But in Chapter 47 the Witches at Auburn change him into Tinker Bell and 'Tink' goes out East to rekindle childhood memories but on the way gets lost in Ohio?

What do you say to that! ? Your story has the advantage of simplicity, with no Cooper Money to have to explain.  ;)

Your story is 'front end loaded' as opposed to being 'back end loaded with the money to have to explain'.

 
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on January 09, 2017, 01:37:55 PM
Sheridan was a VERY experienced jumper. All kinds of jumps, all kinds of gear. He has jumped many times into wilderness areas with attached payloads as a smoke jumper. As a result of his daring batwing experiments he would have been very familiar with asymmetric drag and instability issues. Had he been DB Cooper I think it is HIGHLY unlikely that he would have lost the money during the jump. He would have rigged a currency carrier that would have stayed attached to him.

I have met Sheridan. He has literally the bluest eyes you will ever see, strikingly blue. Nobody would ever mistake them for another color. Might he have been DBC and worn brown contacts? Sure, it's possible, but a long shot.

At 90 he looks very good and still has a sharp mind with an amazing memory for long ago details. He is a voracious reader and is very current on world affairs. I enjoyed talking with him about politics, sport jumping in Saigon, and his experiences in Vietnam, Nepal, Japan and China. We even talked about his stint as an elevator operator in the Seattle Space needle. We had an interesting discussion about Hitler's rise as he was reading They Thought They Were Free, The Germans, 1933-45 by Milton Mayer. He doesn't just read a book, he annotates it extensively.

Could Sheridan Peterson have been DB Cooper? Sure, it's possible, he certainly had the skills, but there are a number of facts that argue against it. Skill wise he is the PERFECT DB Cooper and he as much as admitted that on the HC interview. "Everything pointed at me... EVERYTHING!" But if he were DB Cooper would he have volunteered a DNA sample? I doubt it.

To be clear, Sheridan denies being DB Cooper. He appeared coy about in on the (edited) History Channel interview but he isn't coy about it in person. If he was DB Cooper the secret will die with him. There will be no death bed confession, no revealing part 2 of his book. That's my prediction.

I'd be happy to look half as good and be half as sharp as he is when I turn 90.

377



Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on January 09, 2017, 02:23:39 PM
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Sheridan was a VERY experienced jumper. All kinds of jumps, all kinds of gear. He has jumped many times into wilderness areas with attached payloads as a smoke jumper. As a result of his daring batwing experiments he would have been very familiar with asymmetric drag and instability issues. Had he been DB Cooper I think it is HIGHLY unlikely that he would have lost the money during the jump. He would have rigged a currency carrier that would have stayed attached to him.

I have met Sheridan. He has literally the bluest eyes you will ever see, strikingly blue. Nobody would ever mistake them for another color. Might he have been DBC and worn brown contacts? Sure, it's possible, but a long shot.

At 90 he looks very good and still has a sharp mind with an amazing memory for long ago details. He is a voracious reader and is very current on world affairs. I enjoyed talking with him about politics, sport jumping in Saigon, and his experiences in Vietnam, Nepal, Japan and China. We even talked about his stint as an elevator operator in the Seattle Space needle. We had an interesting discussion about Hitler's rise as he was reading They Thought They Were Free, The Germans, 1933-45 by Milton Mayer. He doesn't just read a book, he annotates it extensively.

Could Sheridan Peterson have been DB Cooper? Sure, it's possible, he certainly had the skills, but there are a number of facts that argue against it. Skill wise he is the PERFECT DB Cooper and he as much as admitted that on the HC interview. "Everything pointed at me... EVERYTHING!" But if he were DB Cooper would he have volunteered a DNA sample? I doubt it.

To be clear, Sheridan denies being DB Cooper. He appeared coy about in on the (edited) History Channel interview but he isn't coy about it in person. If he was DB Cooper the secret will die with him. There will be no death bed confession, no revealing part 2 of his book. That's my prediction.

I'd be happy to look half as good and be half as sharp as he is when I turn 90.

377

What gets me about some of these *extreme sports guys, and Sheridan is an example along with Teddy and Rackstraw, is they have an *ego affectation where they don't mind bullshitting or 'flirting' with the idea they could have been DB Cooper ... but when things get serious they back off as if from a hard landing!

Such is the world of human ego eccentricity and it clusters around *extreme sports personalities! People at Dropzone, if you recall, even trace it to a gene.  :))  Contrast that with Himmelsbach's appraisal which was bullshit on the other extreme of the spectrum.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on January 09, 2017, 02:49:05 PM
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Sheridan was a VERY experienced jumper. All kinds of jumps, all kinds of gear. He has jumped many times into wilderness areas with attached payloads as a smoke jumper. As a result of his daring batwing experiments he would have been very familiar with asymmetric drag and instability issues. Had he been DB Cooper I think it is HIGHLY unlikely that he would have lost the money during the jump. He would have rigged a currency carrier that would have stayed attached to him.

I have met Sheridan. He has literally the bluest eyes you will ever see, strikingly blue. Nobody would ever mistake them for another color. Might he have been DBC and worn brown contacts? Sure, it's possible, but a long shot.

At 90 he looks very good and still has a sharp mind with an amazing memory for long ago details. He is a voracious reader and is very current on world affairs. I enjoyed talking with him about politics, sport jumping in Saigon, and his experiences in Vietnam, Nepal, Japan and China. We even talked about his stint as an elevator operator in the Seattle Space needle. We had an interesting discussion about Hitler's rise as he was reading They Thought They Were Free, The Germans, 1933-45 by Milton Mayer. He doesn't just read a book, he annotates it extensively.

Could Sheridan Peterson have been DB Cooper? Sure, it's possible, he certainly had the skills, but there are a number of facts that argue against it. Skill wise he is the PERFECT DB Cooper and he as much as admitted that on the HC interview. "Everything pointed at me... EVERYTHING!" But if he were DB Cooper would he have volunteered a DNA sample? I doubt it.

To be clear, Sheridan denies being DB Cooper. He appeared coy about in on the (edited) History Channel interview but he isn't coy about it in person. If he was DB Cooper the secret will die with him. There will be no death bed confession, no revealing part 2 of his book. That's my prediction.

I'd be happy to look half as good and be half as sharp as he is when I turn 90.

377

What gets me about some of these *extreme sports guys, and Sheridan is an example along with Teddy and Rackstraw, is they have an *ego affectation where they don't mind bullshitting or 'flirting' with the idea they could have been DB Cooper ... but when things get serious they back off as if from a hard landing!

Such is the world of human ego eccentricity and it clusters around *extreme sports personalities! People at Dropzone, if you recall, even trace it to a gene.  :))  Contrast that with Himmelsbach's appraisal which was bullshit on the other extreme of the spectrum.

Georger,

For whatever it is worth, I have been tested for the gene in question - the Warrior Gene - and I have it.  Below is the explanation of what the DNA people claims it means.

"Studies have linked the 'Warrior Gene' to increased risk-taking behavior and the ability to better access chances of success in critical situations."

So it has a bad point and a good point as well.  I don't view myself as being a reckless risk-taker.  Instead, any risk-taking I do is carefully "calculated risk" taking.

I think there is some truth to the "ability to better access chances of success in critical situations."  I thinks this boils down to "don't panic and keep cool" when your bacon is in the fire.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on January 09, 2017, 05:26:01 PM
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Sheridan was a VERY experienced jumper. All kinds of jumps, all kinds of gear. He has jumped many times into wilderness areas with attached payloads as a smoke jumper. As a result of his daring batwing experiments he would have been very familiar with asymmetric drag and instability issues. Had he been DB Cooper I think it is HIGHLY unlikely that he would have lost the money during the jump. He would have rigged a currency carrier that would have stayed attached to him.

I have met Sheridan. He has literally the bluest eyes you will ever see, strikingly blue. Nobody would ever mistake them for another color. Might he have been DBC and worn brown contacts? Sure, it's possible, but a long shot.

At 90 he looks very good and still has a sharp mind with an amazing memory for long ago details. He is a voracious reader and is very current on world affairs. I enjoyed talking with him about politics, sport jumping in Saigon, and his experiences in Vietnam, Nepal, Japan and China. We even talked about his stint as an elevator operator in the Seattle Space needle. We had an interesting discussion about Hitler's rise as he was reading They Thought They Were Free, The Germans, 1933-45 by Milton Mayer. He doesn't just read a book, he annotates it extensively.

Could Sheridan Peterson have been DB Cooper? Sure, it's possible, he certainly had the skills, but there are a number of facts that argue against it. Skill wise he is the PERFECT DB Cooper and he as much as admitted that on the HC interview. "Everything pointed at me... EVERYTHING!" But if he were DB Cooper would he have volunteered a DNA sample? I doubt it.

To be clear, Sheridan denies being DB Cooper. He appeared coy about in on the (edited) History Channel interview but he isn't coy about it in person. If he was DB Cooper the secret will die with him. There will be no death bed confession, no revealing part 2 of his book. That's my prediction.

I'd be happy to look half as good and be half as sharp as he is when I turn 90.

377

What gets me about some of these *extreme sports guys, and Sheridan is an example along with Teddy and Rackstraw, is they have an *ego affectation where they don't mind bullshitting or 'flirting' with the idea they could have been DB Cooper ... but when things get serious they back off as if from a hard landing!

Such is the world of human ego eccentricity and it clusters around *extreme sports personalities! People at Dropzone, if you recall, even trace it to a gene.  :))  Contrast that with Himmelsbach's appraisal which was bullshit on the other extreme of the spectrum.

Sheridan in person isn't a braggart, far from it. He is consistently modest and self effacing.
Just about any old skydiver would be flattered to be considered a DBC suspect.
Can't blame an old school hard core jumper from joking or flirting about it during a TV interview.
He never seriously holds himself out as DBC.
I was kinda disappointed the FBI didn't interview me.
Many jumpers I knew in 1971 claimed to have been contacted by the FBI.
I bet 95% of them were BS ing.
Back then it was kind of a "wink wink" badge of honor among skydivers to be a viable DBC suspect.

377
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Lynn on December 18, 2017, 06:48:40 AM
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Sheridan was a VERY experienced jumper. All kinds of jumps, all kinds of gear. He has jumped many times into wilderness areas with attached payloads as a smoke jumper. As a result of his daring batwing experiments he would have been very familiar with asymmetric drag and instability issues. Had he been DB Cooper I think it is HIGHLY unlikely that he would have lost the money during the jump. He would have rigged a currency carrier that would have stayed attached to him.

I have met Sheridan. He has literally the bluest eyes you will ever see, strikingly blue. Nobody would ever mistake them for another color. Might he have been DBC and worn brown contacts? Sure, it's possible, but a long shot.

At 90 he looks very good and still has a sharp mind with an amazing memory for long ago details. He is a voracious reader and is very current on world affairs. I enjoyed talking with him about politics, sport jumping in Saigon, and his experiences in Vietnam, Nepal, Japan and China. We even talked about his stint as an elevator operator in the Seattle Space needle. We had an interesting discussion about Hitler's rise as he was reading They Thought They Were Free, The Germans, 1933-45 by Milton Mayer. He doesn't just read a book, he annotates it extensively.

Could Sheridan Peterson have been DB Cooper? Sure, it's possible, he certainly had the skills, but there are a number of facts that argue against it. Skill wise he is the PERFECT DB Cooper and he as much as admitted that on the HC interview. "Everything pointed at me... EVERYTHING!" But if he were DB Cooper would he have volunteered a DNA sample? I doubt it.

To be clear, Sheridan denies being DB Cooper. He appeared coy about in on the (edited) History Channel interview but he isn't coy about it in person. If he was DB Cooper the secret will die with him. There will be no death bed confession, no revealing part 2 of his book. That's my prediction.

I'd be happy to look half as good and be half as sharp as he is when I turn 90.

377

Hi, sorry to be replying so late to this post, but I found this in my meanderings. I believe Sheridan was a Bubbleator operator at the Seattle World's Fair. Is this him at 58 seconds in the video attached? I believe it is mainly because the voice matches the voice in the History interview - it's the way he pronounces "ere" - "rear", "sphere". If it is him, based on earlier, balder photos, he would pretty much have to wearing a rug here. Not that that would make him DBC. :)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSRfyMTyxNw   
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: dcmey on December 31, 2017, 02:01:34 PM
For Christmas I received as gifts The Real McCoy, and The Last Master Outlaw. Right now I am reading The Real McCoy. It's a good book so far, and you can see why he was considered a Cooper suspect. I know that there will be people that will say that he was to young, but he does look much older than his age, and does resemble the Cooper sketch.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: dcmey on December 31, 2017, 02:09:52 PM
I just wanted to say that after I read the 2 books that I have I will get your book Bruce. One thing I wonder is everyone on the forum overthinking some of the Cooper case, I don't mean that as an insult, but sometimes your not going to be able to explain every fact or piece of evidence.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on December 31, 2017, 02:24:28 PM
It's not a point of explaining evidence as much as it is proving it...

McCoy's photo was shown to the crew. they all agreed it wasn't him. now, you want to use makeup to cover McCoy? this was the 70's, not today. toupee's and makeup were not easily done without being noticed. McCoy put makeup on to erase his appearance from when he boarded the plane. I don't see a lot of similarities between the two..they claim a lot of them, but have never proven any of them.

McCoy did the hijacking soon after Cooper, so the minds were still fresh..what kind of makeup would completely change McCoy's face without the use of hair? (mustache, beard etc.) and NOT be noticed?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: dcmey on December 31, 2017, 02:34:00 PM
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It's not a point of explaining evidence as much as it is proving it...

McCoy's photo was shown to the crew. they all agreed it wasn't him. now, you want to use makeup to cover McCoy? this was the 70's, not today. toupee's and makeup were not easily done without being noticed. McCoy put makeup on to erase his appearance from when he boarded the plane. I don't see a lot of similarities between the two..they claim a lot of them, but have never proven any of them.

McCoy did the hijacking soon after Cooper, so the minds were still fresh..what kind of makeup would completely change McCoy's face without the use of hair? (mustache, beard etc.) and NOT be noticed?
I do see a lot of similarities between them. I am through the book yet on McCoy yet, from what I have read so far a friend, and a sister screwed things up for him when he was caught. He would have had to have different people helping him if he did the Cooper hijacking.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on December 31, 2017, 03:01:51 PM
what similarities?

This still needs to be answered?

McCoy did the hijacking soon after Cooper, so the minds were still fresh..what kind of makeup would completely change McCoy's face without the use of hair? (mustache, beard etc.) and NOT be noticed?

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on December 31, 2017, 03:27:45 PM
From the FBI...

The night dragged on with no new leads being developed. Within a few hours, though, area residents woke up to news of the hijacking. The Salt Lake City Office of the FBI received a telephone call before noon from a concerned citizen who said an acquaintance had outlined a “foolproof” plan for hijacking an airplane. The acquaintance, Richard Floyd McCoy, Jr., was a Vietnam veteran, a helicopter pilot, and an avid and capable skydiver. McCoy, 29, was reportedly a member of the Utah Air National Guard and a Police Science Major at Brigham Young University. In addition, McCoy was generally known to be having serious financial problems.

Meanwhile, the FBI Laboratory had been busy with evidence already received. A handwriting expert compared the note found on the plane with McCoy’s writing on military service records and determined that McCoy had written the note. Fingerprint specialists discovered that a latent print on the “Mainliner Magazine” found in the seat next to the hijackers’s matched a print taken from McCoy during his service year.

The hijacker opened his luggage and covered the peephole between the cockpit and cabin. Observed by Second Officer Floyd Smith (fictitious name) through a slight space under the cockpit door, the hijacker quickly put on a jumpsuit, helmet, and parachute. Once he had shut off the cabin lights to better view the ground, the gunman demanded to be kept abreast of wind, ground, and air speeds; altimeter settings; and sky conditions.

I believe it was a police officer McCoy knew that gave him away...also, it appears his prints were found on the plane. I'm sure the FBI checked those against the prints found on 305. McCoy even covered the peephole on the cabin door leading to the cockpit. he brought his own chute & gear. McCoy also showed his experience of being a pilot by acting as the co-pilot with constant updates.

NONE, of the evidence from that book as been verified by anyone. McCoy's letters were typed except the one he forgot to retrieve from the stewardess that really did him in. one of Cooper's requests before takeoff was that the cabin light stay off.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on December 31, 2017, 03:44:37 PM
when you compare McCoy to the composite certain features match & others don't..the ears are sticking out with McCoy, his nose is much wider, and his eyebrows are rounded and look like half of them were cut off. something rather noticeable between the two if you were giving a description..makeup couldn't cover this...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on December 31, 2017, 04:00:13 PM
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when you compare McCoy to the composite certain features match & others don't..the ears are sticking out with McCoy, his nose is much wider, and his eyebrows are rounded and look like half of them were cut off. something rather noticeable between the two if you were giving a description..makeup couldn't cover this...

Im sure some wanted McCoy to be Cooper but alas, you cant drive a square peg into a smaller round hole. 
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: dcmey on December 31, 2017, 08:35:51 PM
If you don't think that McCoy resembles the sketch of Cooper then you need to get your eyes checked. My wife works for an eye doctor and I had my eyes examined a month ago.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on December 31, 2017, 08:59:15 PM
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If you don't think that McCoy resembles the sketch of Cooper then you need to get your eyes checked. My wife works for an eye doctor and I had my eyes examined a month ago.

resembling the sketch is one thing..are you going to claim the makeup theory again? Bing Crosby resembles the sketch, so?

what I see is the hair being the same....

NEWSFLASH....lots of people can "resemble" the sketch....

If he was wearing makeup would he still look like the McCoy.or the sketch.. I'm a little confused? the crew said no, so I take it he wasn't wearing makeup and they just couldn't tell it was Cooper?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: dcmey on January 01, 2018, 01:33:41 AM
The tie and Mother of pearl tie clasp that McCoy had resembles Cooper's. There are receipts that show that he was in Vegas on the 24th. If the FBI hadn't botched the investigation by not collecting magazines on the plane and losing the cigarettes this case would be solved. One thing of interest in the book The real McCoy Jack Ricks one o the Reno FBI agents said someone saw a man running in a black raincoat from the rear stairs just before the Cooper plane came to a stop in Reno at 11:00
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on January 01, 2018, 01:38:34 AM
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The tie and Mother of pearl tie clasp that McCoy had resembles Cooper's. There are receipts that show that he was in Vegas on the 24th. If the FBI hadn't botched the investigation by not collecting magazines on the plane and losing the cigarettes this case would be solved. One thing of interest in the book The real McCoy Jack Ricks one o the Reno FBI agents said someone saw a man running in a black raincoat from the rear stairs just before the Cooper plane came to a stop in Reno at 11:00


can you prove any of this? from what I can see it's all in the book and goes no further, no proof of anything receipt wise, or anything about the tie being related to McCoy...a man running from the rear of the plane, really?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on January 01, 2018, 01:40:45 AM
You do realize they had the airport covered very well, and I believe they would of grabbed anyone near the plane...I can't buy into that one bit....

Basically, you could be like Sailshaw and state that McCoy's DNA will be on the tie clip since it belongs to him.

The "facts" in that book have never been verified. they claim a lot, but show proof of nothing....
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on January 01, 2018, 02:05:51 AM
Don't ya think the FBI checked McCoy's fingerprints?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on January 01, 2018, 02:30:57 AM
Quote
If the FBI hadn't botched the investigation by not collecting magazines on the plane and losing the cigarettes this case would be solved.

They could eliminate suspects with certainty vs closing the case. 377 believes they might have them, it's possible. the whole problem appears to be us not really knowing what they know!

I see many like yourself going directly after the FBI when things can't be explained, or matched. LD Cooper, Christiansen, Peterson, Weber, Gossett etc. all blame the FBI, and all believe they were Cooper? can all of you be right and the FBI wrong? then when an opportunity comes along like checking prints, or DNA you all say the samething, "it's probably not Coopers prints, or DNA"? it's a never ending circle....


I just went into my room where my television is on...the show about McCoy escaping prison is on the "escape" channel.....
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on January 01, 2018, 02:47:36 AM
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The tie and Mother of pearl tie clasp that McCoy had resembles Cooper's. There are receipts that show that he was in Vegas on the 24th. If the FBI hadn't botched the investigation by not collecting magazines on the plane and losing the cigarettes this case would be solved. One thing of interest in the book The real McCoy Jack Ricks one o the Reno FBI agents said someone saw a man running in a black raincoat from the rear stairs just before the Cooper plane came to a stop in Reno at 11:00

very funny!  :bravo:

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on January 01, 2018, 03:16:19 AM
lets recap....

McCoy might be Cooper based on him looking like the sketch, but probably used makeup to hide his real appearance that would make him not like the sketch? I'm still confused...

the crew said McCoy was not Cooper? but they didn't know because he wore makeup and that's why McCoy looks like the sketch? still confused, sorry...

He might of faked the jump because a man "wearing black" color known in the dark was seen running from a moving jet surrounded by FBI agents?

a tiny tie clip has been identified as the same worn by McCoy? that little devil gets identified more than anything in this case. it's so flashy and can be remembered decades later, not so much on the tie?

McCoy made a collect phone call from Vegas (never proven) and his credit card was used and signed by him
(also never proven) or backed with documentation.

McCoy & Cooper both wrote/typed on flight plans, and both gave "extensive" flight plans?

McCoy's DNA should be on the tie clip?

none of the prints will match McCoy due to them not checking the magazines?

let us not forget the two stained fingers, even though the stews noticed his hands and no jewelry?

 McCoy's eyes were light blue; Cooper's ears had no distinguishing characteristics, McCoy's ears stuck out so prominently that his nickname was "Dumbo", and he wore a scarf to conceal them during the Denver hijacking

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on January 01, 2018, 04:20:45 AM
I took a quick pick of my Cooper tie clip that is so memorable to those who remember it from decades past..this should give you an idea of the size and how so many can remember this quality piece of jewelry.... 8)

It was widely sold as a set including cuff links, money clip, tie bar etc. funny how nobody ever mentions "seeing" any other parts of this jewelry on there suspect?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on January 01, 2018, 11:17:14 AM
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The tie and Mother of pearl tie clasp that McCoy had resembles Cooper's. There are receipts that show that he was in Vegas on the 24th. If the FBI hadn't botched the investigation by not collecting magazines on the plane and losing the cigarettes this case would be solved. One thing of interest in the book The real McCoy Jack Ricks one o the Reno FBI agents said someone saw a man running in a black raincoat from the rear stairs just before the Cooper plane came to a stop in Reno at 11:00

The landing in Reno was very carefully observed by the people in the tower at the request of the flight crew who wanted to know if the stairs were being damaged.  And you can bet that LE and the FBI had people concealed all over the place.

The landing and parking of the aircraft in Reno is described in the radio transcripts for the Reno tower.  It would be a good idea for you to read them.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on January 01, 2018, 12:56:39 PM
According to an article by Bruce Smith..the agents had trouble remembering who did what on the plane after it landed, now you expect people to believe they seen a man running from the plane? this would of changed everything, even if one agent stated this at the time. my credibility meter is pegging backwards on the meter with this book..I can see why Portland & Seattle FBI don't believe this theory...

Quote
Rhodes writes that Ricks remembers Stousland dusting for fingerprints while Ricks himself collected cigarette butts and paper cups.

 However, John Norris recalled the Reno City PD performing the fingerprint dusting.

 Further, during his interviews with members of the larger FBI team on ground duty, several agents had difficulty recalling exactly what they did that night.  As Rhodes describes it, the agents weren’t purposefully forgetful, but rather their minds seemed fuzzy.

 Rhodes was aghast, and interviewed the agents on two additional occasions in 1989 to see if their memory would improve.  It didn’t.

I believe the proper procedure would be the FBI doing everything, and the local police only used as extra enforcement on the scene. Harold Campbell of the FBI was in charge in Reno..not the local police!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on January 01, 2018, 02:28:56 PM
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lets recap....

McCoy might be Cooper based on him looking like the sketch, but probably used makeup to hide his real appearance that would make him not like the sketch? I'm still confused...

the crew said McCoy was not Cooper? but they didn't know because he wore makeup and that's why McCoy looks like the sketch? still confused, sorry...

He might of faked the jump because a man "wearing black" color known in the dark was seen running from a moving jet surrounded by FBI agents?

a tiny tie clip has been identified as the same worn by McCoy? that little devil gets identified more than anything in this case. it's so flashy and can be remembered decades later, not so much on the tie?

McCoy made a collect phone call from Vegas (never proven) and his credit card was used and signed by him
(also never proven) or backed with documentation.

McCoy & Cooper both wrote/typed on flight plans, and both gave "extensive" flight plans?

McCoy's DNA should be on the tie clip?

none of the prints will match McCoy due to them not checking the magazines?

let us not forget the two stained fingers, even though the stews noticed his hands and no jewelry?

 McCoy's eyes were light blue; Cooper's ears had no distinguishing characteristics, McCoy's ears stuck out so prominently that his nickname was "Dumbo", and he wore a scarf to conceal them during the Denver hijacking

well ...! ... McCoy looks like Cooper like wolf hounds look like dogs! Its a generic fit at best. When the poster tells us we need our eyes checked, in order to fit his square peg into a round hole, he is confessing .... its all hogwash.

The rest can be covered by the Law of Innumeracy and Coincidence. 

I am beginning to wonder how any years can be spent at the same old game?  It is like some of us have quite unintentionally become a bulwark against bullshit! Having to explain endlessly the same old trivia. Maybe there needs to be a Cooper Ombudsman, Is that what this has become?  :rofl:

So, did anyone see Cooper's Soul rise out of the airplane when it landed at Reno ... or otherwise? I am sure someone did! Let them report here.  :chr2:
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: dcmey on January 01, 2018, 09:17:24 PM
Things that I post here are things that I have read. I think that many people here over think evidence. I was privately messaged before about people here being rude to newbies. It's time to learn more info about DB Cooper and leave this forum. I will ask administraters to delete my account here if I can't figure it out tonight.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on January 01, 2018, 10:54:16 PM
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Things that I post here are things that I have read. I think that many people here over think evidence. I was privately messaged before about people here being rude to newbies. It's time to learn more info about DB Cooper and leave this forum. I will ask administraters to delete my account here if I can't figure it out tonight.

I'm sorry to hear this....I agree that some people need to back off while posting replies here. it should go both ways. if someone doesn't like reading a certain post it should be ignored. you also have to understand at some point that many have been down the road with things new comers to the case try and present, but shouldn't get to the point of members leaving...

I will be removing the admin titles on two members since they were never really intended for any position on this forum other than a way to communicate outside of the public threads for other purposes. it never really worked from day one. the thread died.

I can not have members leaving this forum due to attacks..not everyone has the knowledge that many hold here, but should feel comfortable enough to post. obviously that's not the case here. this is a public forum where anyone can post, except those who have gotten out of line in the past and were removed. I don't put any demands on anyone. the site never closes down to the public for ANY reason other than server issues. attack the data, not the member! I've mentioned several times that we have a "ignore" option that works well and you will not see anything they post.

If we are only to discuss new things surrounding Cooper, this site will be dormant for most of the year since new things don't surface often with the case.

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on January 01, 2018, 11:22:31 PM
Quote
Things that I post here are things that I have read. I think that many people here over think evidence.

I disagree with this...

I understand you read the book about McCoy, but nothing in that book has ever been verified. zero documentation has ever surfaced. actually, it should of been a big part of the book. you just can't make claims in a book without backing the statements up. to think anyone hijacking a plane would think they could get away while the plane is coming to a stop is a little out there, no? if we are taking pokes, I think people who read some of these books over react IMHO.

I feel warm and cozy when I see things backed up with documentation, or it's just hearsay. they need to provide the evidence before anyone should believe anything they say...that's the bottom line...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on January 02, 2018, 09:02:28 PM
Post removed...not Cooper related....


Shutter
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on January 03, 2018, 12:11:14 AM
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The tie and Mother of pearl tie clasp that McCoy had resembles Cooper's. There are receipts that show that he was in Vegas on the 24th. If the FBI hadn't botched the investigation by not collecting magazines on the plane and losing the cigarettes this case would be solved. One thing of interest in the book The real McCoy Jack Ricks one o the Reno FBI agents said someone saw a man running in a black raincoat from the rear stairs just before the Cooper plane came to a stop in Reno at 11:00

The real McCoy Jack Ricks one o the Reno FBI agents said someone saw a man running in a black raincoat from the rear stairs just before the Cooper plane came to a stop in Reno at 11:00

If Agent Ricks said this then why wasn't it captured live by news media and law enforcement tv and film cameras (CBS etc) who broadcast and taped the entire landing of 305 at Reno? There were news and security people and cameras everywhere, including sharp shooters with scopes watching for anyone leaving the plane. CBS showed the landing and taxi to a stop on tv! CBS still has that footage. 

The whole approach and landing to stop and boarding were captured on film, live. There is no need to take anyone's word for anything. 

Its just one more contradiction in and endless series of claims and contradictions that began surfacing almost immediately after the hijacking.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qVv5DbvOIY
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: titanium on January 05, 2018, 01:14:08 PM
Timet is interesting because they had a titanium plant in Toronto, Canada where Dan Cooper comicbooks would have been known.  They didn't have a connection to the PNW, but there was a lot of movement of employees in the field, so someone associated with Timet in Toronto could have moved to the PNW and lost his job as a result of the SST cancellation in 1971.    The Concorde SST was being developed in France and the UK and when the Boeing SST was cancelled, many companies that had been involved with Boeing went to France in Fall 1971 to get contracts for parts.  One of those companies was Zirtech, out of Albany, OR. Zirtech was in financial trouble in 1971 and wound up selling 200,000 shares of it's stock to KBI for $200,000 ($1 per share) which was a bargain.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Lynn on January 05, 2018, 07:20:59 PM
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Timet is interesting because they had a titanium plant in Toronto, Canada where Dan Cooper comicbooks would have been known.  They didn't have a connection to the PNW, but there was a lot of movement of employees in the field, so someone associated with Timet in Toronto could have moved to the PNW and lost his job as a result of the SST cancellation in 1971.    The Concorde SST was being developed in France and the UK and when the Boeing SST was cancelled, many companies that had been involved with Boeing went to France in Fall 1971 to get contracts for parts.  One of those companies was Zirtech, out of Albany, OR. Zirtech was in financial trouble in 1971 and wound up selling 200,000 shares of it's stock to KBI for $200,000 ($1 per share) which was a bargain.

Interesting. On the one hand, Toronto is not a particularly bilingual city - the Cooper comics (along with TinTin) would have been found mostly in Quebec, parts of Manitoba, and New Brunswick, as well as in French language classrooms in every province. Toronto's pretty cosmo, so the books would have been available for purchase there, but again, probably specifically in French bookstores/sections. I'd never heard of the Dan Cooper comics before reading up on this case, though we always had TinTins in the French classrooms (I was in elementary school in Canada in the 70s).  HOWEVER -

that Sky Chef matchbook. Did Tina Mucklow ever identify it as part of the airline service Sky Chef? Because there WAS an unconnected restaurant called Sky Chef in Toronto 1971. Their matchbook looked like this. (390 Bay would be right in the financial district of downtown):
https://chuckmantorontonostalgia.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/matchbook-toronto-sky-chef-restaurant-390-bay.jpg?w=1400


I have wondered if DBC passed through either Canada or Mexico to launder the money (if he retained it) abroad. It would be easier for it never to turn up again if circulated overseas. (I think it would be too risky to circulate it IN Canada or Mexico, though, as it could re-cross the border quite quickly.)  I simply don't believe every teller in the world was keeping an eye on US twenties for very long after the skyjack, particularly without the computer systems we have today. IF it was ever circulated, the bills would have long been destroyed by now, according to a little cursory research about the life span of circulated money. http://www.stangierwealthmanagement.com/blog/american-currency-part-2-how-money-leaves-circulation.html
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on January 05, 2018, 08:50:48 PM
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Timet is interesting because they had a titanium plant in Toronto, Canada where Dan Cooper comicbooks would have been known.  They didn't have a connection to the PNW, but there was a lot of movement of employees in the field, so someone associated with Timet in Toronto could have moved to the PNW and lost his job as a result of the SST cancellation in 1971.    The Concorde SST was being developed in France and the UK and when the Boeing SST was cancelled, many companies that had been involved with Boeing went to France in Fall 1971 to get contracts for parts.  One of those companies was Zirtech, out of Albany, OR. Zirtech was in financial trouble in 1971 and wound up selling 200,000 shares of it's stock to KBI for $200,000 ($1 per share) which was a bargain.

Interesting. On the one hand, Toronto is not a particularly bilingual city - the Cooper comics (along with TinTin) would have been found mostly in Quebec, parts of Manitoba, and New Brunswick, as well as in French language classrooms in every province. Toronto's pretty cosmo, so the books would have been available for purchase there, but again, probably specifically in French bookstores/sections. I'd never heard of the Dan Cooper comics before reading up on this case, though we always had TinTins in the French classrooms (I was in elementary school in Canada in the 70s).  HOWEVER -

that Sky Chef matchbook. Did Tina Mucklow ever identify it as part of the airline service Sky Chef? Because there WAS an unconnected restaurant called Sky Chef in Toronto 1971. Their matchbook looked like this. (390 Bay would be right in the financial district of downtown):
https://chuckmantorontonostalgia.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/matchbook-toronto-sky-chef-restaurant-390-bay.jpg?w=1400


I have wondered if DBC passed through either Canada or Mexico to launder the money (if he retained it) abroad. It would be easier for it never to turn up again if circulated overseas. (I think it would be too risky to circulate it IN Canada or Mexico, though, as it could re-cross the border quite quickly.)  I simply don't believe every teller in the world was keeping an eye on US twenties for very long after the skyjack, particularly without the computer systems we have today. IF it was ever circulated, the bills would have long been destroyed by now, according to a little cursory research about the life span of circulated money. http://www.stangierwealthmanagement.com/blog/american-currency-part-2-how-money-leaves-circulation.html

The airline Sky Chef was a nationwide company in the USA in the 1970 era.  And probably jillions of Sky Chef match books were passed to airline passengers, plus a small packet of four cigarettes, with their meal service.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on January 05, 2018, 11:46:31 PM
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Timet is interesting because they had a titanium plant in Toronto, Canada where Dan Cooper comicbooks would have been known.  They didn't have a connection to the PNW, but there was a lot of movement of employees in the field, so someone associated with Timet in Toronto could have moved to the PNW and lost his job as a result of the SST cancellation in 1971.    The Concorde SST was being developed in France and the UK and when the Boeing SST was cancelled, many companies that had been involved with Boeing went to France in Fall 1971 to get contracts for parts.  One of those companies was Zirtech, out of Albany, OR. Zirtech was in financial trouble in 1971 and wound up selling 200,000 shares of it's stock to KBI for $200,000 ($1 per share) which was a bargain.

Interesting. On the one hand, Toronto is not a particularly bilingual city - the Cooper comics (along with TinTin) would have been found mostly in Quebec, parts of Manitoba, and New Brunswick, as well as in French language classrooms in every province. Toronto's pretty cosmo, so the books would have been available for purchase there, but again, probably specifically in French bookstores/sections. I'd never heard of the Dan Cooper comics before reading up on this case, though we always had TinTins in the French classrooms (I was in elementary school in Canada in the 70s).  HOWEVER -

that Sky Chef matchbook. Did Tina Mucklow ever identify it as part of the airline service Sky Chef? Because there WAS an unconnected restaurant called Sky Chef in Toronto 1971. Their matchbook looked like this. (390 Bay would be right in the financial district of downtown):
https://chuckmantorontonostalgia.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/matchbook-toronto-sky-chef-restaurant-390-bay.jpg?w=1400


I have wondered if DBC passed through either Canada or Mexico to launder the money (if he retained it) abroad. It would be easier for it never to turn up again if circulated overseas. (I think it would be too risky to circulate it IN Canada or Mexico, though, as it could re-cross the border quite quickly.)  I simply don't believe every teller in the world was keeping an eye on US twenties for very long after the skyjack, particularly without the computer systems we have today. IF it was ever circulated, the bills would have long been destroyed by now, according to a little cursory research about the life span of circulated money. http://www.stangierwealthmanagement.com/blog/american-currency-part-2-how-money-leaves-circulation.html

Sky Chef. We know. Tina testified about it. We know a thing or two because weve seen a thing or two.

Try a search here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3110148
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on January 06, 2018, 07:42:24 AM
Quote
I have wondered if DBC passed through either Canada or Mexico to launder the money (if he retained it) abroad. It would be easier for it never to turn up again if circulated overseas. (I think it would be too risky to circulate it IN Canada or Mexico, though, as it could re-cross the border quite quickly.)  I simply don't believe every teller in the world was keeping an eye on US twenties for very long after the skyjack, particularly without the computer systems we have today. IF it was ever circulated, the bills would have long been destroyed by now, according to a little cursory research about the life span of circulated money.

The FBI themselves have admitted the bills would of been hard to detect..the main purpose would of been geared towards evidence in court if Cooper was ever caught. I doubt anyone checked those bills in most states nationwide..I believe the treasury department only looks for counterfeit bills...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Lynn on January 07, 2018, 04:57:34 PM
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Timet is interesting because they had a titanium plant in Toronto, Canada where Dan Cooper comicbooks would have been known.  They didn't have a connection to the PNW, but there was a lot of movement of employees in the field, so someone associated with Timet in Toronto could have moved to the PNW and lost his job as a result of the SST cancellation in 1971.    The Concorde SST was being developed in France and the UK and when the Boeing SST was cancelled, many companies that had been involved with Boeing went to France in Fall 1971 to get contracts for parts.  One of those companies was Zirtech, out of Albany, OR. Zirtech was in financial trouble in 1971 and wound up selling 200,000 shares of it's stock to KBI for $200,000 ($1 per share) which was a bargain.

Interesting. On the one hand, Toronto is not a particularly bilingual city - the Cooper comics (along with TinTin) would have been found mostly in Quebec, parts of Manitoba, and New Brunswick, as well as in French language classrooms in every province. Toronto's pretty cosmo, so the books would have been available for purchase there, but again, probably specifically in French bookstores/sections. I'd never heard of the Dan Cooper comics before reading up on this case, though we always had TinTins in the French classrooms (I was in elementary school in Canada in the 70s).  HOWEVER -

that Sky Chef matchbook. Did Tina Mucklow ever identify it as part of the airline service Sky Chef? Because there WAS an unconnected restaurant called Sky Chef in Toronto 1971. Their matchbook looked like this. (390 Bay would be right in the financial district of downtown):
https://chuckmantorontonostalgia.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/matchbook-toronto-sky-chef-restaurant-390-bay.jpg?w=1400


I have wondered if DBC passed through either Canada or Mexico to launder the money (if he retained it) abroad. It would be easier for it never to turn up again if circulated overseas. (I think it would be too risky to circulate it IN Canada or Mexico, though, as it could re-cross the border quite quickly.)  I simply don't believe every teller in the world was keeping an eye on US twenties for very long after the skyjack, particularly without the computer systems we have today. IF it was ever circulated, the bills would have long been destroyed by now, according to a little cursory research about the life span of circulated money. http://www.stangierwealthmanagement.com/blog/american-currency-part-2-how-money-leaves-circulation.html

Sky Chef. We know. Tina testified about it. We know a thing or two because weve seen a thing or two.

Try a search here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3110148

Thank you (for sending me back to that den of Jos and Blevinses, lol.) I have taken a look, but have only found reference to Sky Chef the catering service and their affiliated restaurants, mainly at airports, and matchbooks, not to the seemingly unaffiliated Sky Chef restaurant in Toronto.

I certainly would never suggest you didn't know about the Sky Chef matchbook; it's in Tina's witness statement. I would assume anyone on here would have at least read the witness statements as released. The question I had is whether she recognized it as part of the airline food service company Sky Chef, or if it merely SAID Sky Chef - I am not finding that detail in her interviews as released, and am wondering if she has been asked about this at any other time. I do know she has allowed interviews rarely compared to others in the case (and I can certainly understand why she would feel that way; I probably would myself. Most sane people don't enjoy revisiting their traumas once they've moved past them).

Again, the Sky Chef restaurant in Toronto does not APPEAR to have been related to the airline food company, though it's a fairly odd name for a restaurant - I don't know if it might have been elevated as I have ONLY seen reference to it when I found the matchbook cover on a Google search (restaurants come and go). The airline catering service's matchbook cover was quite different, though it was also blue:  https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f0/99/93/f099934b7339399a88a8c447f7e96447--golden-age-catering.jpg

The one from the Toronto restaurant is far less sleek and corporate-looking. It's a photo on one side, and what looks like a hand-drawn image on the other. Again, the restaurant was in the heart of the downtown biz district, nowhere near the airport.  I'll try to find out more about the restaurant if I can, at least to see if it was affiliated in any way, if not online then the next time I'm in Toronto -
 my bro lives there. (Of course, the needle in haystack part comes in when you wonder if any other cities had restos/bars with similar names, also unaffiliated to the catering company).
https://chuckmantorontonostalgia.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/matchbook-toronto-sky-chef-restaurant-390-bay.jpg?w=1400


Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on January 07, 2018, 05:11:44 PM
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Timet is interesting because they had a titanium plant in Toronto, Canada where Dan Cooper comicbooks would have been known.  They didn't have a connection to the PNW, but there was a lot of movement of employees in the field, so someone associated with Timet in Toronto could have moved to the PNW and lost his job as a result of the SST cancellation in 1971.    The Concorde SST was being developed in France and the UK and when the Boeing SST was cancelled, many companies that had been involved with Boeing went to France in Fall 1971 to get contracts for parts.  One of those companies was Zirtech, out of Albany, OR. Zirtech was in financial trouble in 1971 and wound up selling 200,000 shares of it's stock to KBI for $200,000 ($1 per share) which was a bargain.

Interesting. On the one hand, Toronto is not a particularly bilingual city - the Cooper comics (along with TinTin) would have been found mostly in Quebec, parts of Manitoba, and New Brunswick, as well as in French language classrooms in every province. Toronto's pretty cosmo, so the books would have been available for purchase there, but again, probably specifically in French bookstores/sections. I'd never heard of the Dan Cooper comics before reading up on this case, though we always had TinTins in the French classrooms (I was in elementary school in Canada in the 70s).  HOWEVER -

that Sky Chef matchbook. Did Tina Mucklow ever identify it as part of the airline service Sky Chef? Because there WAS an unconnected restaurant called Sky Chef in Toronto 1971. Their matchbook looked like this. (390 Bay would be right in the financial district of downtown):
https://chuckmantorontonostalgia.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/matchbook-toronto-sky-chef-restaurant-390-bay.jpg?w=1400


I have wondered if DBC passed through either Canada or Mexico to launder the money (if he retained it) abroad. It would be easier for it never to turn up again if circulated overseas. (I think it would be too risky to circulate it IN Canada or Mexico, though, as it could re-cross the border quite quickly.)  I simply don't believe every teller in the world was keeping an eye on US twenties for very long after the skyjack, particularly without the computer systems we have today. IF it was ever circulated, the bills would have long been destroyed by now, according to a little cursory research about the life span of circulated money. http://www.stangierwealthmanagement.com/blog/american-currency-part-2-how-money-leaves-circulation.html

Sky Chef. We know. Tina testified about it. We know a thing or two because weve seen a thing or two.

Try a search here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3110148

Thank you (for sending me back to that den of Jos and Blevinses, lol.) I have taken a look, but have only found reference to Sky Chef the catering service and their affiliated restaurants, mainly at airports, and matchbooks, not to the seemingly unaffiliated Sky Chef restaurant in Toronto.

I certainly would never suggest you didn't know about the Sky Chef matchbook; it's in Tina's witness statement. I would assume anyone on here would have at least read the witness statements as released. The question I had is whether she recognized it as part of the airline food service company Sky Chef, or if it merely SAID Sky Chef - I am not finding that detail in her interviews as released, and am wondering if she has been asked about this at any other time. I do know she has allowed interviews rarely compared to others in the case (and I can certainly understand why she would feel that way; I probably would myself. Most sane people don't enjoy revisiting their traumas once they've moved past them).

Again, the Sky Chef restaurant in Toronto does not APPEAR to have been related to the airline food company, though it's a fairly odd name for a restaurant - I don't know if it might have been elevated as I have ONLY seen reference to it when I found the matchbook cover on a Google search (restaurants come and go). The airline catering service's matchbook cover was quite different, though it was also blue:  https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f0/99/93/f099934b7339399a88a8c447f7e96447--golden-age-catering.jpg

The one from the Toronto restaurant is far less sleek and corporate-looking. It's a photo on one side, and what looks like a hand-drawn image on the other. Again, the restaurant was in the heart of the downtown biz district, nowhere near the airport.  I'll try to find out more about the restaurant if I can, at least to see if it was affiliated in any way, if not online then the next time I'm in Toronto -
 my bro lives there. (Of course, the needle in haystack part comes in when you wonder if any other cities had restos/bars with similar names, also unaffiliated to the catering company).
https://chuckmantorontonostalgia.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/matchbook-toronto-sky-chef-restaurant-390-bay.jpg?w=1400

well, if anything could be tied to Toronto, that would be new.   :)
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on January 07, 2018, 05:24:55 PM
From time-to-time I dream of starting a Tour Company that jaunts through Cooper World, visiting all the hot spots like Tina Bar and the Fazio Ranch. But also all the pubs and restaurants that have a Norjak connection - like the DB Cooper tavern in Salt Lake City (McCoy Country), or DB Cooper Ale brewery in Portland. Why not put the Sky Chef resto in Toronto on the list!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Lynn on January 07, 2018, 05:25:20 PM
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Timet is interesting because they had a titanium plant in Toronto, Canada where Dan Cooper comicbooks would have been known.  They didn't have a connection to the PNW, but there was a lot of movement of employees in the field, so someone associated with Timet in Toronto could have moved to the PNW and lost his job as a result of the SST cancellation in 1971.    The Concorde SST was being developed in France and the UK and when the Boeing SST was cancelled, many companies that had been involved with Boeing went to France in Fall 1971 to get contracts for parts.  One of those companies was Zirtech, out of Albany, OR. Zirtech was in financial trouble in 1971 and wound up selling 200,000 shares of it's stock to KBI for $200,000 ($1 per share) which was a bargain.

Interesting. On the one hand, Toronto is not a particularly bilingual city - the Cooper comics (along with TinTin) would have been found mostly in Quebec, parts of Manitoba, and New Brunswick, as well as in French language classrooms in every province. Toronto's pretty cosmo, so the books would have been available for purchase there, but again, probably specifically in French bookstores/sections. I'd never heard of the Dan Cooper comics before reading up on this case, though we always had TinTins in the French classrooms (I was in elementary school in Canada in the 70s).  HOWEVER -

that Sky Chef matchbook. Did Tina Mucklow ever identify it as part of the airline service Sky Chef? Because there WAS an unconnected restaurant called Sky Chef in Toronto 1971. Their matchbook looked like this. (390 Bay would be right in the financial district of downtown):
https://chuckmantorontonostalgia.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/matchbook-toronto-sky-chef-restaurant-390-bay.jpg?w=1400


I have wondered if DBC passed through either Canada or Mexico to launder the money (if he retained it) abroad. It would be easier for it never to turn up again if circulated overseas. (I think it would be too risky to circulate it IN Canada or Mexico, though, as it could re-cross the border quite quickly.)  I simply don't believe every teller in the world was keeping an eye on US twenties for very long after the skyjack, particularly without the computer systems we have today. IF it was ever circulated, the bills would have long been destroyed by now, according to a little cursory research about the life span of circulated money. http://www.stangierwealthmanagement.com/blog/american-currency-part-2-how-money-leaves-circulation.html

Sky Chef. We know. Tina testified about it. We know a thing or two because weve seen a thing or two.

Try a search here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3110148

Thank you (for sending me back to that den of Jos and Blevinses, lol.) I have taken a look, but have only found reference to Sky Chef the catering service and their affiliated restaurants, mainly at airports, and matchbooks, not to the seemingly unaffiliated Sky Chef restaurant in Toronto.

I certainly would never suggest you didn't know about the Sky Chef matchbook; it's in Tina's witness statement. I would assume anyone on here would have at least read the witness statements as released. The question I had is whether she recognized it as part of the airline food service company Sky Chef, or if it merely SAID Sky Chef - I am not finding that detail in her interviews as released, and am wondering if she has been asked about this at any other time. I do know she has allowed interviews rarely compared to others in the case (and I can certainly understand why she would feel that way; I probably would myself. Most sane people don't enjoy revisiting their traumas once they've moved past them).

Again, the Sky Chef restaurant in Toronto does not APPEAR to have been related to the airline food company, though it's a fairly odd name for a restaurant - I don't know if it might have been elevated as I have ONLY seen reference to it when I found the matchbook cover on a Google search (restaurants come and go). The airline catering service's matchbook cover was quite different, though it was also blue:  https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f0/99/93/f099934b7339399a88a8c447f7e96447--golden-age-catering.jpg

The one from the Toronto restaurant is far less sleek and corporate-looking. It's a photo on one side, and what looks like a hand-drawn image on the other. Again, the restaurant was in the heart of the downtown biz district, nowhere near the airport.  I'll try to find out more about the restaurant if I can, at least to see if it was affiliated in any way, if not online then the next time I'm in Toronto -
 my bro lives there. (Of course, the needle in haystack part comes in when you wonder if any other cities had restos/bars with similar names, also unaffiliated to the catering company).
https://chuckmantorontonostalgia.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/matchbook-toronto-sky-chef-restaurant-390-bay.jpg?w=1400

well, if anything could be tied to Toronto, that would be new.   :)
Haha, well, I was thinking more in terms of whether the guy might have been a frequent flyer throughout North America and have passed through. Plus someone else mentioned the comic book angle, though the mention of a Dan Cooper in the TV show Sarge reminds me I saw another Dan Cooper in I think an old episode of Cannon. It was a beautifully common name, and a good alias at least.

Believe me, Toronto would be THRILLED if DB passed through there, and would have a parade if he was a resident. The city is traditionally known as Toronto the Good and is mocked by the rest of the country for its cosmopolitan staidness. Toronto could use herself a bad boy.  ;D
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on January 07, 2018, 05:27:57 PM
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Believe me, Toronto would be THRILLED if DB passed through there, and would have a parade if he was a resident. The city is traditionally known as Toronto the Good and is mocked by the rest of the country for its cosmopolitan staidness. Toronto could use herself a bad boy.  ;D


I understand that Toronto's famously bad boy mayor, Rob Ford, I believe, has passed away. He was a coke addict during his tenure, if I recall. My condolences.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Lynn on January 07, 2018, 05:29:59 PM
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Believe me, Toronto would be THRILLED if DB passed through there, and would have a parade if he was a resident. The city is traditionally known as Toronto the Good and is mocked by the rest of the country for its cosmopolitan staidness. Toronto could use herself a bad boy.  ;D

Do not even get me started. His brother's still around. But there's a difference between a bad boy and a crackhead. May he rest in peace.  >:D

I understand that Toronto's famously bad boy mayor, Rob Ford, I believe, has passed away. He was a coke addict during his tenure, if I recall. My condolences.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on January 07, 2018, 05:34:32 PM
So touchy, Lynn.

Smile.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Lynn on January 07, 2018, 05:35:22 PM
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So touchy, Lynn.

Smile.

Haha, not my monkey, not my zoo. I live in the Hammer.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Lynn on January 07, 2018, 05:52:37 PM
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So touchy, Lynn.

Smile.

Haha, not my monkey, not my zoo. I live in the Hammer.
But please do add Sky Chef Toronto to the list. My budget doesn't currently permit me to travel to the other places, and would love to meet some of you fellow DBC fanatics!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: JenSam17 on February 04, 2018, 10:01:44 AM
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From time-to-time I dream of starting a Tour Company that jaunts through Cooper World, visiting all the hot spots like Tina Bar and the Fazio Ranch. But also all the pubs and restaurants that have a Norjak connection - like the DB Cooper tavern in Salt Lake City (McCoy Country), or DB Cooper Ale brewery in Portland. Why not put the Sky Chef resto in Toronto on the list!

I think you’re on to something here, Bruce.  I know they have a tour of the Lindbergh kidnapping sites in NY-NJ. 
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on February 04, 2018, 07:57:04 PM
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From time-to-time I dream of starting a Tour Company that jaunts through Cooper World, visiting all the hot spots like Tina Bar and the Fazio Ranch. But also all the pubs and restaurants that have a Norjak connection - like the DB Cooper tavern in Salt Lake City (McCoy Country), or DB Cooper Ale brewery in Portland. Why not put the Sky Chef resto in Toronto on the list!

I think you’re on to something here, Bruce.  I know they have a tour of the Lindbergh kidnapping sites in NY-NJ.

Shark Tank....
I don't see enough people willing to go on any tour like this to where it would be profitable...with that, I'm out  :rofl:
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 04, 2018, 11:21:28 PM
I don't need hordes of tourists - just a few rich ones!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MEYDC on February 10, 2018, 12:07:24 PM
I am still reading the last master outlaw and one thing that I read was that Cooper was jumping up and down when he got the money. It's on page 68 and both Flo and Tina said it. One thing that it makes me wonder is if Cooper was younger than his 40's. I am not sold on Rackstraw BTW but I just wanted to see what others thought about that.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: DavidV on February 10, 2018, 01:44:55 PM
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I am still reading the last master outlaw and one thing that I read was that Cooper was jumping up and down when he got the money. It's on page 68 and both Flo and Tina said it. One thing that it makes me wonder is if Cooper was younger than his 40's. I am not sold on Rackstraw BTW but I just wanted to see what others thought about that.

I don't recall reading in Flo or Tina's 302 FBI statements Cooler "jumping up and down." Never read the book but curious where the author got his info.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on February 10, 2018, 01:45:51 PM
I believe they said he was acting "child like"
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on February 10, 2018, 01:48:14 PM
The problem I see sometimes is the authors will insert there own terminology to an event, usually exaggerating the statement to the fullest...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: DavidV on February 10, 2018, 01:58:36 PM
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I believe they said he was acting "child like"

I recall this as well. I get the impression Flo spoke to his attitude offering them money.

But yes. As with many aspects of this case a few words or actions are open to interpretation.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on February 10, 2018, 02:02:03 PM
the statement from flo reads "the hijacker was acting very childish"
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MEYDC on February 10, 2018, 03:48:09 PM
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The problem I see sometimes is the authors will insert there own terminology to an event, usually exaggerating the statement to the fullest...
that could be. I do think that it is possible that Cooper could have younger than thought regardless if he jumped up and down or was acting childish. A person in their mid 40's wouldn't be as likely to act that way.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 10, 2018, 04:12:01 PM
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The problem I see sometimes is the authors will insert there own terminology to an event, usually exaggerating the statement to the fullest...
that could be. I do think that it is possible that Cooper could have younger than thought regardless if he jumped up and down or was acting childish. A person in their mid 40's wouldn't be as likely to act that way.

Well, I'm 68 and you'd be surprised how excited I would be with an unexpected pile of moolah at my feet. BTW: The "child-like" behavior comment has been attributed only to Flo. I have never read or heard that Tina characterized DBC as child-like.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: dice on February 10, 2018, 04:51:56 PM
Quote
A person in their mid 40's wouldn't be as likely to act that way.

Not true.  Not at all.  A caper is exciting and rewarding and I'd expect any male to behave that way regardless of age. 
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on February 10, 2018, 05:07:44 PM
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Quote
A person in their mid 40's wouldn't be as likely to act that way.

Not true.  Not at all.  A caper is exciting and rewarding and I'd expect any male to behave that way regardless of age.

My behavior sometimes is childish..I'm joking around all the time on jobsites..certain people mature more than others, but doesn't exclude someone 70 years old acting childish...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on February 10, 2018, 05:10:50 PM
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the statement from flo reads "the hijacker was acting very childish"

Large discussion of this at Dropzone, in case anyone cares to ... quantum leap beyond pure speculation and ...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on February 10, 2018, 05:11:57 PM
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the statement from flo reads "the hijacker was acting very childish"

Large discussion of this at Dropzone, in case anyone cares to ... quantum leap beyond pure speculation and ...

as well as just about everything discussed on this forum....
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Lynn on February 10, 2018, 10:57:32 PM
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e/The problem I see sometimes is the authors will insert there own terminology to an event, usually exaggerating the statement to the fullest...
that could be. I do think that it is possible that Cooper could have younger than thought regardless if he jumped up and down or was acting childish. A person in their mid 40's wouldn't be as likely to act that way.

Well, I'm 68 and you'd be surprised how excited I would be with an unexpected pile of moolah at my feet. BTW: The "child-like" behavior comment has been attributed only to Flo. I have never read or heard that Tina characterized DBC as child-like.
Agreed. I'm about to turn 50, and while my body may feel some changes, silly behaviour/thought is no less likely (though it may take a different form) than when I was twenty. I jumped up and down the other day because someone brought lemon loaf to work (I love lemon loaf), and decided today I would love to sneakily live in IKEA. For 200 grand I would literally hop all over the living room like Skippy the Bush Kangaroo. I also yelled a great number of obscenities when my hockey team lost in an OT shootout tonight. And there are a few (in)famous people I can reel off at the drop of a hat who have displayed some VERY immature behaviour of late.



Re: the incident mentioned - I've also only seen it mentioned by Flo. Tina did mention him offering her a wad of the money, though.

BTW, can someone confirm for me that Cooper was in a windowless seat? I read somewhere about a refueling guy seeing him looking out the window but don't remember where I read it.

Mind you, psych studies have shown ppl have trouble distinguishing their real memories from things they used to imagine. That tends to happen over time, which is why I also tend to give more weight to interviews conducted immediately after the incident.

BTW, what's up with the passengers named Simmons? They were interviewed a bunch of places where they claimed to have seen Cooper, but am not finding interviews with them in the FBI docs. Have ALL the interviews been released?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on February 10, 2018, 11:34:43 PM
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e/The problem I see sometimes is the authors will insert there own terminology to an event, usually exaggerating the statement to the fullest...
that could be. I do think that it is possible that Cooper could have younger than thought regardless if he jumped up and down or was acting childish. A person in their mid 40's wouldn't be as likely to act that way.

Well, I'm 68 and you'd be surprised how excited I would be with an unexpected pile of moolah at my feet. BTW: The "child-like" behavior comment has been attributed only to Flo. I have never read or heard that Tina characterized DBC as child-like.
Agreed. I'm about to turn 50, and while my body may feel some changes, silly behaviour/thought is no less likely (though it may take a different form) than when I was twenty. I jumped up and down the other day because someone brought lemon loaf to work (I love lemon loaf), and decided today I would love to sneakily live in IKEA. For 200 grand I would literally hop all over the living room like Skippy the Bush Kangaroo. I also yelled a great number of obscenities when my hockey team lost in an OT shootout tonight. And there are a few (in)famous people I can reel off at the drop of a hat who have displayed some VERY immature behaviour of late.



Re: the incident mentioned - I've also only seen it mentioned by Flo. Tina did mention him offering her a wad of the money, though.

BTW, can someone confirm for me that Cooper was in a windowless seat? I read somewhere about a refueling guy seeing him looking out the window but don't remember where I read it.

Mind you, psych studies have shown ppl have trouble distinguishing their real memories from things they used to imagine. That tends to happen over time, which is why I also tend to give more weight to interviews conducted immediately after the incident.

BTW, what's up with the passengers named Simmons? They were interviewed a bunch of places where they claimed to have seen Cooper, but am not finding interviews with them in the FBI docs. Have ALL the interviews been released?

Cooper's seat was in a row that did have a window and all the rows had a window.  Cooper and one of the refueling men did make eye contact through one of the windows.  Cooper was not necessarily seated at the time that happened.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on February 10, 2018, 11:41:03 PM
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e/The problem I see sometimes is the authors will insert there own terminology to an event, usually exaggerating the statement to the fullest...
that could be. I do think that it is possible that Cooper could have younger than thought regardless if he jumped up and down or was acting childish. A person in their mid 40's wouldn't be as likely to act that way.

Well, I'm 68 and you'd be surprised how excited I would be with an unexpected pile of moolah at my feet. BTW: The "child-like" behavior comment has been attributed only to Flo. I have never read or heard that Tina characterized DBC as child-like.
Agreed. I'm about to turn 50, and while my body may feel some changes, silly behaviour/thought is no less likely (though it may take a different form) than when I was twenty. I jumped up and down the other day because someone brought lemon loaf to work (I love lemon loaf), and decided today I would love to sneakily live in IKEA. For 200 grand I would literally hop all over the living room like Skippy the Bush Kangaroo. I also yelled a great number of obscenities when my hockey team lost in an OT shootout tonight. And there are a few (in)famous people I can reel off at the drop of a hat who have displayed some VERY immature behaviour of late.



Re: the incident mentioned - I've also only seen it mentioned by Flo. Tina did mention him offering her a wad of the money, though.

BTW, can someone confirm for me that Cooper was in a windowless seat? I read somewhere about a refueling guy seeing him looking out the window but don't remember where I read it.

Mind you, psych studies have shown ppl have trouble distinguishing their real memories from things they used to imagine. That tends to happen over time, which is why I also tend to give more weight to interviews conducted immediately after the incident.

BTW, what's up with the passengers named Simmons? They were interviewed a bunch of places where they claimed to have seen Cooper, but am not finding interviews with them in the FBI docs. Have ALL the interviews been released?

Ckret saoid the Simon's 'latter-day[' testimony was suspect. He said it conflicted with their first interview testimony.

As to Mucklow vs Flo re money. "When passengers were gone Schaffner and Alice talked to Cooper while Mucklow went out to bring in the parachutes one or several at a time. Cooper remarked about how heavy the money was. He seemed amused and child-like.' (Flo interview)

Mucklow may not have been there when Cooper got excited about the money ?

'The stairs truck came to the front door and Mucklow left via the front door and went to the car carrying the money, chutes, food, maps, and a radio for cockpit communications.. At this time the hijacker got up and went to the aft lavatory. When Mucklow returned the hijacker was back in his seat. Mucklow dragged a white canvas money bag down the isle (right in fron ot the passangers) to where the hijacker was sitting and placed it on seat 18-D next to the hijacker. The hijacker looked through the bag and said that it was  ‘now alright for the passengers to get off the plane’. Mucklow notified the pilot and the pilot made an announcement ‘the passengers could now leave the aircraft’.  (Interview 2)

'(When she received the bag containing the money on the ground) She took the bag containing the money back to seat 18-E where the hijacker was seated.
He opened the bag and inspected the contents which Mucklow said she observed was money packed in small packages with bank-type bands around each package. Having inspected the money in a cursory fashion the hijacker stated that “it looks ok” and then indicated to Mucklow that the crew could now let the passengers deplane. She stated that she called the cockpit on the intercom with this message and an announcement was made from the cockpit that passengers could disembark. 

Mucklow recalls that at this time while the passengers were unloading, in an attempt at being humorous, she suggested to the hijacker ‘that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and could she have some’! The hijacker agreed with her suggestion and reached in and took out one package of the money, denominations not recalled by Mucklow, and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her! Mucklow states that she laughed and gave the money back to the hijacker stating ‘she was not permitted to accept gratuities’, or words to that effect. In a similar vein Mucklow recalls that at one time during the flight the hijacker had pulled some single bills from his pocket (change from a $20 he was given earlier for a drink he had purchased) and attempted to (give the bills back) to tip the girls on the crew. (He was told then they could not accept tips). So again, they declined in compliance with company policy.' (Mucklow interview 1)       


 

   
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 11, 2018, 01:18:22 AM
Sluggo advised me several years ago to discount the Simmons' account, as he felt they were too caught up in being celebrities to be credible. This comports with the general feeling about Richard and Barbara Simmons.

There are a LOT of missing 302s on the passengers. There is nothing about Michael Cooper - and he was interviewed by three different agents who still managed to FUBAR that debriefing. Two agents were dispatched to Missoula to investigate Mike's acquaintances. Mike ended up being fired from his teaching position at Missoula High School due to suspicions about him being DB Cooper - and also for cutting out from school early and not telling his boss - who didn't know that Mike had left town when the FBI called him at home on Wednesday night.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on February 11, 2018, 01:25:17 AM
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Sluggo advised me several years ago to discount the Simmons' account, as he felt they were too caught up in being celebrities to be credible. This comports with the general feeling about Richard and Barbara Simmons.

There are a LOT of missing 302s on the passengers. There is nothing about Michael Cooper - and he was interviewed by three different agents who still managed to FUBAR that debriefing. Two agents were dispatched to Missoula to investigate Mike's acquaintances. Mike ended up being fired from his teaching position at Missoula High School due to suspicions about him being DB Cooper - and also for cutting out from school early and not telling his boss - who didn't know that Mike had left town when the FBI called him at home on Wednesday night.

I remember all of this - Sluggo and Ckret were in constant communication off line. Ckret dismissed Simmons on DZ for the reasons you cite, if you recall.

Did Simmons actually give a description? Any description? Didnt he say Cooper barked/glared at him passing by? I dont remember one if he did.  ;)
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 11, 2018, 01:54:54 AM
I have very little knowledge of Richard Simmons' testimony.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on February 11, 2018, 08:20:16 AM
Simmons' was on "In Search Of" back in the late 70's..his wife spoke as well...


''
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_yvGpipjzE
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on February 11, 2018, 12:46:16 PM
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Simmons' was on "In Search Of" back in the late 70's..his wife spoke as well...


''
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_yvGpipjzE

The only suspect mentioned in this docu is - Robt Rackstraw! Says, totally cleared. Then Colbert brings Rackstraw up all over again decades later, Colbert avoids the previous clearing by the FBI completely and goes on and on with his production. All of this happening at the very time in history that forensic science has advanced to the point where it actually offers advanced tools never available before, which could address the DB Cooper case.

Maybe the FBI has closed this case simply to try and suppress public involvement, so it can address the case in private on its own terms, for a change. The public side of the Cooper case has become so heavy and demanding, it had to be costing the FBI in resources. Dealing with the public is not free and can actually hamper investigating a case in the internet age.

It is also interesting to me that to date, Colbert has not used many modern forensic tools and methods available to crime investigators today. Colbert and his world class team have produced nothing and look like a bunch of Luddites! What accounts for that? It's a curious juxtaposition in 2018! Why is Colbert focusing on primitive methods and ideas vs modern forensic science? It's a puzzlement.   :)

Colbert and his team seem to be totally clueless about how modern investigations work? Mountains of advertising and promos' do not suffice for a modern criminal investigation today!
 
 
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Check-Six on February 11, 2018, 01:43:08 PM
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The only suspect mentioned in this docu is - Robt Rackstraw! Says, totally cleared. Then Colbert brings Rackstraw up all over again decades later, Colbert avoids the previous clearing by the FBI completely and goes on and on with his production. All of this happening at the very time in history that forensic science has advanced to the point where it actually offers advanced tools never available before, which could address the DB Cooper case.

Maybe the FBI has closed this case simply to try and suppress public involvement, so it can address the case in private on its own terms, for a change. The public side of the Cooper case has become so heavy and demanding, it had to be costing the FBI in resources. Dealing with the public is not free and can actually hamper investigating a case in the internet age.

It is also interesting to me that to date, Colbert has not used many modern forensic tools and methods available to crime investigators today. Colbert and his world class team have produced nothing and look like a bunch of Luddites! What accounts for that? It's a curious juxtaposition in 2018! Why is Colbert focusing on primitive methods and ideas vs modern forensic science? It's a puzzlement.   :)

Colbert and his team seem to be totally clueless about how modern investigations work? Mountains of advertising and promos' do not suffice for a modern criminal investigation today!

Thanks for the bit of humor. Considering the amount of modern investigative tools and tech actually being applied in the CCT work, it is obvious you haven't looked at the DNA comparisons and other reports of the analysis work.
"Mountains of advertising and promos'"? That's the History Channel and the filming, not the team... Just like failing to mention the previous "clearing" in the 2016 show (and, to which, no explanation as to why he was cleared has been provided by the bureau).
But hey - it has always been easier to throw stones than to gather stone together.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Lynn on February 11, 2018, 01:53:48 PM
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Simmons' was on "In Search Of" back in the late 70's..his wife spoke as well...


''
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_yvGpipjzE

The only suspect mentioned in this docu is - Robt Rackstraw! Says, totally cleared. Then Colbert brings Rackstraw up all over again decades later, Colbert avoids the previous clearing by the FBI completely and goes on and on with his production. All of this happening at the very time in history that forensic science has advanced to the point where it actually offers advanced tools never available before, which could address the DB Cooper case.

Maybe the FBI has closed this case simply to try and suppress public involvement, so it can address the case in private on its own terms, for a change. The public side of the Cooper case has become so heavy and demanding, it had to be costing the FBI in resources. Dealing with the public is not free and can actually hamper investigating a case in the internet age.

It is also interesting to me that to date, Colbert has not used many modern forensic tools and methods available to crime investigators today. Colbert and his world class team have produced nothing and look like a bunch of Luddites! What accounts for that? It's a curious juxtaposition in 2018! Why is Colbert focusing on primitive methods and ideas vs modern forensic science? It's a puzzlement.   :)

Colbert and his team seem to be totally clueless about how modern investigations work? Mountains of advertising and promos' do not suffice for a modern criminal investigation today!
Entirely in agreement, Georger. This is the video that prompted my questions about the Simmons couple - it is invaluable in my writing for other reasons, ie. I can SEE what airports looked like in the 70s to make my fiction more realistic - but it also blew my mind when I watched it a few weeks back. (1) This video was from 1979 and Rackstraw was already done. Yet here we are, almost 40 years later, and Uncle Bob is still around.  (2) This couple, one of whom says Cooper glared at him, and no FBI interview.

I'm such a Cooper nerd now, my hubby laughs. I'm screaming at the TV during this doc like it's a hockey game. It's also what prompted my brief side-foray into the vagaries of memory. They may well have gotten caught up in the celeb aspect of the case. Or they may actually have convinced themselves they remember now what they once only imagined. It's entirely possible some other suit glared at Simmons, or that no one did, or that he's remembering something from another time in his life.

Am delighted someone provided a variation on a quote I've always loved - "don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity." Humans make errors, and I don't necessarily think the more glaring errors in the FBI NORJAK investigation were due to a cover-up. After all, the biggest feather in their cap would be to solve the thing, regardless if it implicated someone in the Bureau or pointed to sloppy work by decades-earlier agents. It's the same reason I don't buy the motive "Cooper did this to embarrass the FBI." At that particular point in aviation history, the FBI didn't need his help.

Georger may be right, it may well be that the sheer amount of public input, curiosity, and criticism of the case, not the mention the hundreds of suspects brought to their attention, were hampering the feds more than helping them.

There's still something niggling at me about the History doc, namely the timing. Why close the case in conjunction with such a dramatic doc? Though, come to think of it, it may have been a way of getting a jump on Colbert. Tina herself eliminated Rackstraw, which is set and match for most viewers. By systematically eliminating each of the major named suspects as of that time, History helped the FBI show why closing the case seemed logical. (Caveat: to my mind, the doc didn't do that great a job eliminating most of the suspects - it piqued my own interest in a completely different suspect when I first saw it, in fact - but even in the early days of my own falling down this rabbit hole, I couldn't take Rackstraw seriously as a suspect and didn't understand why they were devoting so much of the doc to him and showing Tina only his photo.)

We can also probably assume they've kept back at least some factoids or scraps of evidence for the purpose of eliminating anyone else who might come forward to "confess", though at this point the prankster would have to be an elderly man.

Oh, weird little synchronicity. My sister just posted a video of Skippy the Bush Kangaroo. Huge show among kids in Canada (it was an Aussie import) in 1971 and I once again imagined DB jumping for middle-aged joy at the money. I mentioned Skippy on one of these threads yesterday. So for any Jungians out there, I'm taking this as a sign to keep looking. Or maybe to stay young at heart.  Or maybe I'm getting money. Oh, I hope it's that one. ;)
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on February 11, 2018, 02:14:06 PM
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Simmons' was on "In Search Of" back in the late 70's..his wife spoke as well...


''
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_yvGpipjzE

The only suspect mentioned in this docu is - Robt Rackstraw! Says, totally cleared. Then Colbert brings Rackstraw up all over again decades later, Colbert avoids the previous clearing by the FBI completely and goes on and on with his production. All of this happening at the very time in history that forensic science has advanced to the point where it actually offers advanced tools never available before, which could address the DB Cooper case.

Maybe the FBI has closed this case simply to try and suppress public involvement, so it can address the case in private on its own terms, for a change. The public side of the Cooper case has become so heavy and demanding, it had to be costing the FBI in resources. Dealing with the public is not free and can actually hamper investigating a case in the internet age.

It is also interesting to me that to date, Colbert has not used many modern forensic tools and methods available to crime investigators today. Colbert and his world class team have produced nothing and look like a bunch of Luddites! What accounts for that? It's a curious juxtaposition in 2018! Why is Colbert focusing on primitive methods and ideas vs modern forensic science? It's a puzzlement.   :)

Colbert and his team seem to be totally clueless about how modern investigations work? Mountains of advertising and promos' do not suffice for a modern criminal investigation today!
Entirely in agreement, Georger. This is the video that prompted my questions about the Simmons couple - it is invaluable in my writing for other reasons, ie. I can SEE what airports looked like in the 70s to make my fiction more realistic - but it also blew my mind when I watched it a few weeks back. (1) This video was from 1979 and Rackstraw was already done. Yet here we are, almost 40 years later, and Uncle Bob is still around.  (2) This couple, one of whom says Cooper glared at him, and no FBI interview.

I'm such a Cooper nerd now, my hubby laughs. I'm screaming at the TV during this doc like it's a hockey game. It's also what prompted my brief side-foray into the vagaries of memory. They may well have gotten caught up in the celeb aspect of the case. Or they may actually have convinced themselves they remember now what they once only imagined. It's entirely possible some other suit glared at Simmons, or that no one did, or that he's remembering something from another time in his life.

Am delighted someone provided a variation on a quote I've always loved - "don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity." Humans make errors, and I don't necessarily think the more glaring errors in the FBI NORJAK investigation were due to a cover-up. After all, the biggest feather in their cap would be to solve the thing, regardless if it implicated someone in the Bureau or pointed to sloppy work by decades-earlier agents. It's the same reason I don't buy the motive "Cooper did this to embarrass the FBI." At that particular point in aviation history, the FBI didn't need his help.

Georger may be right, it may well be that the sheer amount of public input, curiosity, and criticism of the case, not the mention the hundreds of suspects brought to their attention, were hampering the feds more than helping them.

There's still something niggling at me about the History doc, namely the timing. Why close the case in conjunction with such a dramatic doc? Though, come to think of it, it may have been a way of getting a jump on Colbert. Tina herself eliminated Rackstraw, which is set and match for most viewers. By systematically eliminating each of the major named suspects as of that time, History helped the FBI show why closing the case seemed logical. (Caveat: to my mind, the doc didn't do that great a job eliminating most of the suspects - it piqued my own interest in a completely different suspect when I first saw it, in fact - but even in the early days of my own falling down this rabbit hole, I couldn't take Rackstraw seriously as a suspect and didn't understand why they were devoting so much of the doc to him and showing Tina only his photo.)

We can also probably assume they've kept back at least some factoids or scraps of evidence for the purpose of eliminating anyone else who might come forward to "confess", though at this point the prankster would have to be an elderly man.

Oh, weird little synchronicity. My sister just posted a video of Skippy the Bush Kangaroo. Huge show among kids in Canada (it was an Aussie import) in 1971 and I once again imagined DB jumping for middle-aged joy at the money. I mentioned Skippy on one of these threads yesterday. So for any Jungians out there, I'm taking this as a sign to keep looking. Or maybe to stay young at heart.  Or maybe I'm getting money. Oh, I hope it's that one. ;)

Good post! Thanks or sharing your thoughts. I have something Sluggo said years ago and will post it later when I locate it again. Its interesting to note how different people see this case, and their different thoughts about Cooper. Ive always thought Sluggo (Wayne Walker) had some good insights about this case. Sluggo developed a good relationship with Ckret .... I miss Sluggo greatly. He could always keep people on track and was universally liked.  ;) 

Best of luck with your writing!   
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Lynn on February 11, 2018, 02:15:16 PM
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Simmons' was on "In Search Of" back in the late 70's..his wife spoke as well...


Good post! Thanks or sharing your thoughts. I have something Sluggo said years ago and will post it later when I locate it again. Its interesting to note how different people see this case, and their different thoughts about Cooper. Ive always thought Sluggo (Wayne Walker) had some good insights about this case. Sluggo developed a good relationship with Ckret .... I miss Sluggo greatly. He could always keep people on track and was universally liked.  ;) 

Best of luck with your writing!
Thank you so much! And not sure who Ckret is, but love the handle!
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Lynn on February 11, 2018, 02:41:03 PM
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Simmons' was on "In Search Of" back in the late 70's..his wife spoke as well...


''
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_yvGpipjzE
By the way, interesting to see Cossey in his younger years in this video, and singing a very different tune than he did years later re: Cooper's prospects of survival.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Lynn on February 11, 2018, 02:57:53 PM
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[quote author=Shutter link=topic=43.msg20823#msg20823 date=151835521

Maybe the FBI has closed this case simply to try and suppress public involvement, so it can address the case in private on its own terms, for a change. The public side of the Cooper case has become so heavy and demanding, it had to be costing the FBI in resources. Dealing with the public is not free and can actually hamper investigating a case in the internet age.

*****
"It was really one of those things , you know, the authorities said...'best leave it unsolved..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZrqC5LL_oo
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on February 11, 2018, 03:19:52 PM
Quote
Thank you so much! And not sure who Ckret is, but love the handle!

Ckret was Agent Larry Carr who was on Dropzone.com

have you had a chance to read the PDF of his comments?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on February 11, 2018, 03:39:16 PM
Quote
Just like failing to mention the previous "clearing" in the 2016 show (and, to which, no explanation as to why he was cleared has been provided by the bureau)

correct, but they have never really explained why they dismiss the other thousand plus suspects. it's not just Tom's team. it would be nice to hear, but they feel it's not really any of our biz IMO..

Agent Carr mentions Christiansen, but only says he only matched the description by being male, and then goes onto to say a couple other things. that hasn't stopped Robert Blevins...

Rackstraw has been dismissed several times..I was told by someone very well into the case, and very well known that basic evidence has been ignored, and a bunch of complicated hearsay evidence is all it is...the main witness said NO...just how many stones do you wish to gather?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Lynn on February 11, 2018, 03:56:05 PM
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Quote
Thank you so much! And not sure who Ckret is, but love the handle!

Ckret was Agent Larry Carr who was on Dropzone.com

have you had a chance to read the PDF of his comments?
I don't believe so - it's not ringing a bell. Is that in the vault?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on February 11, 2018, 03:58:07 PM
Yes, in our vault towards the bottom files..
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Lynn on February 11, 2018, 03:59:33 PM
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Yes, in our vault towards the bottom files..
- Okay, Scoob, we're off to the vault!
- Ra Rault?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on February 11, 2018, 03:59:57 PM
http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Cooper-Vault/
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Lynn on February 11, 2018, 04:02:27 PM
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Yes, in our vault towards the bottom files..
Thanks, so much, this is gold! (Love the vault sound FX, by the way.) Right off the bat - he mentions that spilled drink. I'm hooked in.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: MarkBennett on February 11, 2018, 04:58:43 PM
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(Caveat: to my mind, the doc didn't do that great a job eliminating most of the suspects - it piqued my own interest in a completely different suspect when I first saw it, in fact - but even in the early days of my own falling down this rabbit hole, I couldn't take Rackstraw seriously as a suspect and didn't understand why they were devoting so much of the doc to him and showing Tina only his photo.)

If you look at the coffee table when Tina was shown Rackstraw's photo, there was a photo of L.D. Cooper.  so, she might have been shown multiple photos.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on February 11, 2018, 05:07:37 PM
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(Caveat: to my mind, the doc didn't do that great a job eliminating most of the suspects - it piqued my own interest in a completely different suspect when I first saw it, in fact - but even in the early days of my own falling down this rabbit hole, I couldn't take Rackstraw seriously as a suspect and didn't understand why they were devoting so much of the doc to him and showing Tina only his photo.)

If you look at the coffee table when Tina was shown Rackstraw's photo, there was a photo of L.D. Cooper.  so, she might have been shown multiple photos.

If Tina was shown photos of several people, then the LE people apparently had her do a "photo lineup".
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on February 11, 2018, 07:11:00 PM
I'm guessing they were constantly contacting them the first couple years to show them photo's...Mitchell has made that claim in the past..

During the show I'm sure she looked at a lot of the known suspects prior to the camera coming on...I'll bet a lot of them have seen a lot of shows with these suspects over the years...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on February 11, 2018, 11:33:38 PM
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Yes, in our vault towards the bottom files..
Thanks, so much, this is gold! (Love the vault sound FX, by the way.) Right off the bat - he mentions that spilled drink. I'm hooked in.

The crew interviews should be in the Vault - somewhere, not sure of title but you will know it when you see it. Thats a valuable file to keep handy ...

My Tina and Flo quotes I posted to you earlier were from that file ...
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on February 11, 2018, 11:37:35 PM
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Quote
Just like failing to mention the previous "clearing" in the 2016 show (and, to which, no explanation as to why he was cleared has been provided by the bureau)

correct, but they have never really explained why they dismiss the other thousand plus suspects. it's not just Tom's team. it would be nice to hear, but they feel it's not really any of our biz IMO..

Agent Carr mentions Christiansen, but only says he only matched the description by being male, and then goes onto to say a couple other things. that hasn't stopped Robert Blevins...

Rackstraw has been dismissed several times..I was told by someone very well into the case, and very well known that basic evidence has been ignored, and a bunch of complicated hearsay evidence is all it is...the main witness said NO...just how many stones do you wish to gather?

We know the answer to that - some people will go on forever. Its that 'cult' thing.

Now. This is message will disappear in five seconds, so be sure to take all metal off your person to avoid raddionic exposure@   :rofl:
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Mack on May 23, 2018, 01:32:33 AM
@ Bruce.
The presentations you posted on YouTube are very well done.  I watched all of them and was impressed with your presentation skills and for your ability to convey the Cooper story to the public.

I have a couple of questions about comments you make during those presentations.

1) Re: Tina Bar money find. You mention that the pilot, Bill Rataczak, requested and was denied permission to fly out over the ocean.  After that idea was  nixed you theorize that Rataczak opted to fly as far east in the flight corridor as permissible in order to take DBC over more remote terrain and therefore Cooper's LZ would have been further east than what the FBI calculated. 
Question: wouldn't Rataczak have informed the FBI of this during his interviews so they would know where to look? After all, he was angry and wanted Cooper dead or caught as you said?

2) Re: Criticisim of the FBI for not getting their suits dirty and beating the bushes to look for Cooper. Question:  How many FBI agents where assigned to this case and available to go searching for Cooper in the suspected LZ? What percentage of the LZ could they have covered in one week's time?   I recall reading somewhere that the USAF flew SR-71 and other reconnaissance missions in support of the manhunt.  Any truth to that and wouldn't that be more effective than sending all available personnel into the woods where they would be out of contact during a critical time in the case?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 23, 2018, 03:29:26 AM
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@ Bruce.
The presentations you posted on YouTube are very well done.  I watched all of them and was impressed with your presentation skills and for your ability to convey the Cooper story to the public.

I have a couple of questions about comments you make during those presentations.

1) Re: Tina Bar money find. You mention that the pilot, Bill Rataczak, requested and was denied permission to fly out over the ocean.  After that idea was  nixed you theorize that Rataczak opted to fly as far east in the flight corridor as permissible in order to take DBC over more remote terrain and therefore Cooper's LZ would have been further east than what the FBI calculated. 
Question: wouldn't Rataczak have informed the FBI of this during his interviews so they would know where to look? After all, he was angry and wanted Cooper dead or caught as you said?

2) Re: Criticisim of the FBI for not getting their suits dirty and beating the bushes to look for Cooper. Question:  How many FBI agents where assigned to this case and available to go searching for Cooper in the suspected LZ? What percentage of the LZ could they have covered in one week's time?   I recall reading somewhere that the USAF flew SR-71 and other reconnaissance missions in support of the manhunt.  Any truth to that and wouldn't that be more effective than sending all available personnel into the woods where they would be out of contact during a critical time in the case?

Thank you, Mack.

1. You ask a reasonable question about what Rataczak would have told the FBI about his flight path and where they should be looking for DB Cooper. It seems that Rataczak did tell Himmelsbach that 305 was east of Victor 23 and probably  over the Washougal. But when did he tell him? That is not known, really. Certainly not by me. Also, when and to what degree did Rataczak push the Washougal information towards the Seattle FBI agents? Again, unknown.

2. As I understand the case, about 30 agents were assigned to Norjak on the night of the skyjacking. This comes from Sid Rubin, a rookie SA on the case that night at Sea-Tac perimeter duty. Another SA rookie, George Grobin, told me that about two-dozen FBI agents were in the Amboy-Ariel area for the ground searches in March and April 1972. They did not get their shoes too muddy, but they were nearby. Over the course of the investigation, Bob Sale told Sailshaw and me that about five agents were assigned in Seattle  to Cooper through the first few years, with other Seattle agents being assigned as squads got special assignments, such as interviewing SOG guys at Fort Bragg, etc.

Yes, an SR-71 was assigned to fly recon over the potential LZ, but it was hampered most of the time due to cloud cover. I think it only had one or two "successful" missions. Geoffrey Gray discusses this aspect of the investigation in his  book, SKYJACK. There has been discussion here about a more reasonable technological means - using infrared devices immediately via helos and flying through the night to search for a warm body in the woods. Yes, the false reads due to wildlife would be staggering, but it is a plausible approach. Now, I would imagine that the NSA has got high tech gizmos on satellites to accomplish the same task.

Tom McDowell, the Cowlitz County Undersheriff who headed the ground search in LZ-A said that his search area was approximately 24 square miles, and his team of 20-24 deputies and volunteers covered about one square mile of terrain from Friday at 1pm until Monday morning when the search was terminated. That's basically three days with 20 guys to cover 5% of the prime LZ.

Bottom Line: A needle in a haystack is still a needle in a haystack even when you're looking with the latest gear.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Shutter on May 23, 2018, 06:12:20 AM
SR-71 had zero success..5 attempts were made but cloud coverage hampered the mission everytime...this was mid January of 1972. 4 documents about this subject are in our Cooper vault..
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on May 23, 2018, 12:49:01 PM
Bruce wrote: "There has been discussion here about a more reasonable technological means - using infrared devices immediately via helos and flying through the night to search for a warm body in the woods. Yes, the false reads due to wildlife would be staggering, but it is a plausible approach."

I worked in the field way back. FLIRS in 1971, the military grade ones with cryo cooled detectors, had quite good performance, but image recognition processing was in its infancy. Over the years, the performance of uncooled consumer grade FLIRS has improved and image recognition software performance today is phenomenal. Today it has evolved into options on automobiles. Look at this video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXkuoeyUlYE
I have used the Audi NV system. Its ability to recognize humans and bracket them in yellow or red (depending on collision danger) is remarkable. You can have a group of people walking with dogs. The people are bracketed and the dogs are not. I think it looks for vertically oriented targets with human aspect ratios and temps around 98 degrees F. If it sees that it calls it a human. Just a guess on the software algorithms.

377

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on May 23, 2018, 01:01:55 PM
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Bruce wrote: "There has been discussion here about a more reasonable technological means - using infrared devices immediately via helos and flying through the night to search for a warm body in the woods. Yes, the false reads due to wildlife would be staggering, but it is a plausible approach."

I worked in the field way back. FLIRS in 1971, the military grade ones with cryo cooled detectors, had quite good performance, but image recognition processing was in its infancy. Over the years, the performance of uncooled consumer grade FLIRS has improved and image recognition software performance today is phenomenal. Today it has evolved into options on automobiles. Look at this video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXkuoeyUlYE
I have used the Audi NV system. Its ability to recognize humans and bracket them in yellow or red (depending on collision danger) is remarkable. You can have a group of people walking with dogs. The people are bracketed and the dogs are not. I think it looks for vertically oriented targets with human aspect ratios and temps around 98 degrees F. If it sees that it calls it a human. Just a guess on the software algorithms.

377

That night vision system looks like it is a worthwhile investment.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on May 23, 2018, 01:04:59 PM
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@ Bruce.
The presentations you posted on YouTube are very well done.  I watched all of them and was impressed with your presentation skills and for your ability to convey the Cooper story to the public.

I have a couple of questions about comments you make during those presentations.

1) Re: Tina Bar money find. You mention that the pilot, Bill Rataczak, requested and was denied permission to fly out over the ocean.  After that idea was  nixed you theorize that Rataczak opted to fly as far east in the flight corridor as permissible in order to take DBC over more remote terrain and therefore Cooper's LZ would have been further east than what the FBI calculated. 
Question: wouldn't Rataczak have informed the FBI of this during his interviews so they would know where to look? After all, he was angry and wanted Cooper dead or caught as you said?

2) Re: Criticisim of the FBI for not getting their suits dirty and beating the bushes to look for Cooper. Question:  How many FBI agents where assigned to this case and available to go searching for Cooper in the suspected LZ? What percentage of the LZ could they have covered in one week's time?   I recall reading somewhere that the USAF flew SR-71 and other reconnaissance missions in support of the manhunt.  Any truth to that and wouldn't that be more effective than sending all available personnel into the woods where they would be out of contact during a critical time in the case?

Thank you, Mack.

1. You ask a reasonable question about what Rataczak would have told the FBI about his flight path and where they should be looking for DB Cooper. It seems that Rataczak did tell Himmelsbach that 305 was east of Victor 23 and probably  over the Washougal. But when did he tell him? That is not known, really. Certainly not by me. Also, when and to what degree did Rataczak push the Washougal information towards the Seattle FBI agents? Again, unknown.

2. As I understand the case, about 30 agents were assigned to Norjak on the night of the skyjacking. This comes from Sid Rubin, a rookie SA on the case that night at Sea-Tac perimeter duty. Another SA rookie, George Grobin, told me that about two-dozen FBI agents were in the Amboy-Ariel area for the ground searches in March and April 1972. They did not get their shoes too muddy, but they were nearby. Over the course of the investigation, Bob Sale told Sailshaw and me that about five agents were assigned in Seattle  to Cooper through the first few years, with other Seattle agents being assigned as squads got special assignments, such as interviewing SOG guys at Fort Bragg, etc.

Yes, an SR-71 was assigned to fly recon over the potential LZ, but it was hampered most of the time due to cloud cover. I think it only had one or two "successful" missions. Geoffrey Gray discusses this aspect of the investigation in his  book, SKYJACK. There has been discussion here about a more reasonable technological means - using infrared devices immediately via helos and flying through the night to search for a warm body in the woods. Yes, the false reads due to wildlife would be staggering, but it is a plausible approach. Now, I would imagine that the NSA has got high tech gizmos on satellites to accomplish the same task.

Tom McDowell, the Cowlitz County Undersheriff who headed the ground search in LZ-A said that his search area was approximately 24 square miles, and his team of 20-24 deputies and volunteers covered about one square mile of terrain from Friday at 1pm until Monday morning when the search was terminated. That's basically three days with 20 guys to cover 5% of the prime LZ.

Bottom Line: A needle in a haystack is still a needle in a haystack even when you're looking with the latest gear.

Babbayaga says:


BruceSmith

Sep 21, 2014, 1:08 AM
Post #55550 of 58140 (23917 views)
Shortcut
   
     Where was 305? [In reply to]    
I see there is a lot of talk about chatting with Rataczak to clarify where 305 was when Cooper jumped.

That might be useful, but I also think it would be worthwhile to review what has already been revealed by the principals.

1. Rataczak told me he did know where 305 was when DBC jumped. Later in our 70-minute phone conversation he said that 305 was east of V-23 by a couple miles due to the wind.

2. Himmelsbach told me that Rataczak told him that 305 was over the Washougal.

3. Mrs. Cooper says that Rataczak told her that he could see the lights of Vancouver to the right. Not sure what that means. It sounds like perfect Jo Weber haze. But it could very well be V-23-ish, too.

4. Calame and Rhodes say that Scott told the folks at Himms' retirement party in 1980 that 305 was west of V-23 and over Woodland, WA.

5. Larry says V-23 All the Way to Red Bluff, CA!

6. Marianne Lincoln of Shady Acres Airport in Spanaway, WA says that the transmission from Seattle Center she heard were reporting east of V-23 to Gresham and then up the Columbia River Gorge.

7. Multiple eye witnesses allegedly report that they saw a burning object descend from a low-flying aircraft just west of the I-5 bridge over the Columbia, just about the time that 305 passed over the area.

So, what does this mishigas tell us about Norjak? It's just what the FBI likes for public consumption - perfectly mucked up or just another day in the Cooper Vortex?


(This post was edited by BruceSmith on Sep 21, 2014, 1:39 AM)
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on May 23, 2018, 01:09:32 PM
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@ Bruce.
The presentations you posted on YouTube are very well done.  I watched all of them and was impressed with your presentation skills and for your ability to convey the Cooper story to the public.

I have a couple of questions about comments you make during those presentations.

1) Re: Tina Bar money find. You mention that the pilot, Bill Rataczak, requested and was denied permission to fly out over the ocean.  After that idea was  nixed you theorize that Rataczak opted to fly as far east in the flight corridor as permissible in order to take DBC over more remote terrain and therefore Cooper's LZ would have been further east than what the FBI calculated. 
Question: wouldn't Rataczak have informed the FBI of this during his interviews so they would know where to look? After all, he was angry and wanted Cooper dead or caught as you said?

2) Re: Criticisim of the FBI for not getting their suits dirty and beating the bushes to look for Cooper. Question:  How many FBI agents where assigned to this case and available to go searching for Cooper in the suspected LZ? What percentage of the LZ could they have covered in one week's time?   I recall reading somewhere that the USAF flew SR-71 and other reconnaissance missions in support of the manhunt.  Any truth to that and wouldn't that be more effective than sending all available personnel into the woods where they would be out of contact during a critical time in the case?

Thank you, Mack.

1. You ask a reasonable question about what Rataczak would have told the FBI about his flight path and where they should be looking for DB Cooper. It seems that Rataczak did tell Himmelsbach that 305 was east of Victor 23 and probably  over the Washougal. But when did he tell him? That is not known, really. Certainly not by me. Also, when and to what degree did Rataczak push the Washougal information towards the Seattle FBI agents? Again, unknown.

2. As I understand the case, about 30 agents were assigned to Norjak on the night of the skyjacking. This comes from Sid Rubin, a rookie SA on the case that night at Sea-Tac perimeter duty. Another SA rookie, George Grobin, told me that about two-dozen FBI agents were in the Amboy-Ariel area for the ground searches in March and April 1972. They did not get their shoes too muddy, but they were nearby. Over the course of the investigation, Bob Sale told Sailshaw and me that about five agents were assigned in Seattle  to Cooper through the first few years, with other Seattle agents being assigned as squads got special assignments, such as interviewing SOG guys at Fort Bragg, etc.

Yes, an SR-71 was assigned to fly recon over the potential LZ, but it was hampered most of the time due to cloud cover. I think it only had one or two "successful" missions. Geoffrey Gray discusses this aspect of the investigation in his  book, SKYJACK. There has been discussion here about a more reasonable technological means - using infrared devices immediately via helos and flying through the night to search for a warm body in the woods. Yes, the false reads due to wildlife would be staggering, but it is a plausible approach. Now, I would imagine that the NSA has got high tech gizmos on satellites to accomplish the same task.

Tom McDowell, the Cowlitz County Undersheriff who headed the ground search in LZ-A said that his search area was approximately 24 square miles, and his team of 20-24 deputies and volunteers covered about one square mile of terrain from Friday at 1pm until Monday morning when the search was terminated. That's basically three days with 20 guys to cover 5% of the prime LZ.

Bottom Line: A needle in a haystack is still a needle in a haystack even when you're looking with the latest gear.

Your psychoanalysis of Rataczak is pure bunk-a-doodle-doo!  Always has been every time you bring this canard up.


snowmman

Jan 17, 2010, 11:40 PM
Post #15864 of 58140 (60858 views)
Shortcut
          himmelsbach retirement date vs money find [In reply to]
 
________________________________________
It was scheduled before the money find.
It happened immediately after the money find.

he had to retire at 55, the fbi retirement age.

Money was found 2/10/1980

Washougal enters the picture via hydrologist report. Not due to any crew members changing their stories.

Himmelsbach starts attributing Washougal to 3-5 crew vs hydrologist where it originated!

Himmelsbach retired 2/28/1980 (Fri..got exact date at 2nd link)
Last day of the month in Feb.

http://news.google.com/...retirement&hl=en

this link says retired Fri..paper was Sat. 3/1/1980
http://news.google.com/...retirement&hl=en


(This post was edited by snowmman on Jan 17, 2010, 11:45 PM)



Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on May 23, 2018, 01:11:50 PM
It's a remarkable safety enhancement. It's not perfect though, mostly due to physics not design faults. Performance depends on temp DIFFERENCE, so if you have a 98 degree F night, you won't be seeing people as contrasting targets. Also rain degrades performance substantially. Thermal IR doesn't go through water very well.

I remember when working in the military FLIR field decades ago, it was thought that good performance required cryogenically cooled IR detectors made out of exotic alloys like Mercury Cadmium Telluride and Lead and Selenium. I don't recall Yttrium though.  ;)

Nobody envisioned anything as good as Audi's system with uncooled detectors.

FLIR Systems makes a cheap add on for smart phones that does a decent job at thermal imaging: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlH3yYkCqE0

377
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on May 23, 2018, 02:09:49 PM
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It's a remarkable safety enhancement. It's not perfect though, mostly due to physics not design faults. Performance depends on temp DIFFERENCE, so if you have a 98 degree F night, you won't be seeing people as contrasting targets. Also rain degrades performance substantially. Thermal IR doesn't go through water very well.

I remember when working in the military FLIR field decades ago, it was thought that good performance required cryogenically cooled IR detectors made out of exotic alloys like Mercury Cadmium Telluride and Lead and Selenium. I don't recall Yttrium though.  ;)

Nobody envisioned anything as good as Audi's system with uncooled detectors.

FLIR Systems makes a cheap add on for smart phones that does a decent job at thermal imaging: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlH3yYkCqE0

377

I have a back up camera on my present car (bought off the lot) and it is a really great help in backing up.  You can actually see what is behind you in the middle of the night and there is no strain on the neck.  If I ever buy another car I'll make it a point to check for all the possible electronic assistance devices.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on May 23, 2018, 02:28:47 PM
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@ Bruce.
The presentations you posted on YouTube are very well done.  I watched all of them and was impressed with your presentation skills and for your ability to convey the Cooper story to the public.

I have a couple of questions about comments you make during those presentations.

1) Re: Tina Bar money find. You mention that the pilot, Bill Rataczak, requested and was denied permission to fly out over the ocean.  After that idea was  nixed you theorize that Rataczak opted to fly as far east in the flight corridor as permissible in order to take DBC over more remote terrain and therefore Cooper's LZ would have been further east than what the FBI calculated. 
Question: wouldn't Rataczak have informed the FBI of this during his interviews so they would know where to look? After all, he was angry and wanted Cooper dead or caught as you said?

2) Re: Criticisim of the FBI for not getting their suits dirty and beating the bushes to look for Cooper. Question:  How many FBI agents where assigned to this case and available to go searching for Cooper in the suspected LZ? What percentage of the LZ could they have covered in one week's time?   I recall reading somewhere that the USAF flew SR-71 and other reconnaissance missions in support of the manhunt.  Any truth to that and wouldn't that be more effective than sending all available personnel into the woods where they would be out of contact during a critical time in the case?

Thank you, Mack.

1. You ask a reasonable question about what Rataczak would have told the FBI about his flight path and where they should be looking for DB Cooper. It seems that Rataczak did tell Himmelsbach that 305 was east of Victor 23 and probably  over the Washougal. But when did he tell him? That is not known, really. Certainly not by me. Also, when and to what degree did Rataczak push the Washougal information towards the Seattle FBI agents? Again, unknown.

2. As I understand the case, about 30 agents were assigned to Norjak on the night of the skyjacking. This comes from Sid Rubin, a rookie SA on the case that night at Sea-Tac perimeter duty. Another SA rookie, George Grobin, told me that about two-dozen FBI agents were in the Amboy-Ariel area for the ground searches in March and April 1972. They did not get their shoes too muddy, but they were nearby. Over the course of the investigation, Bob Sale told Sailshaw and me that about five agents were assigned in Seattle  to Cooper through the first few years, with other Seattle agents being assigned as squads got special assignments, such as interviewing SOG guys at Fort Bragg, etc.

Yes, an SR-71 was assigned to fly recon over the potential LZ, but it was hampered most of the time due to cloud cover. I think it only had one or two "successful" missions. Geoffrey Gray discusses this aspect of the investigation in his  book, SKYJACK. There has been discussion here about a more reasonable technological means - using infrared devices immediately via helos and flying through the night to search for a warm body in the woods. Yes, the false reads due to wildlife would be staggering, but it is a plausible approach. Now, I would imagine that the NSA has got high tech gizmos on satellites to accomplish the same task.

Tom McDowell, the Cowlitz County Undersheriff who headed the ground search in LZ-A said that his search area was approximately 24 square miles, and his team of 20-24 deputies and volunteers covered about one square mile of terrain from Friday at 1pm until Monday morning when the search was terminated. That's basically three days with 20 guys to cover 5% of the prime LZ.

Bottom Line: A needle in a haystack is still a needle in a haystack even when you're looking with the latest gear.

Babbayaga says:


BruceSmith

Sep 21, 2014, 1:08 AM
Post #55550 of 58140 (23917 views)
Shortcut
   
     Where was 305? [In reply to]    
I see there is a lot of talk about chatting with Rataczak to clarify where 305 was when Cooper jumped.

That might be useful, but I also think it would be worthwhile to review what has already been revealed by the principals.

1. Rataczak told me he did know where 305 was when DBC jumped. Later in our 70-minute phone conversation he said that 305 was east of V-23 by a couple miles due to the wind.

2. Himmelsbach told me that Rataczak told him that 305 was over the Washougal.

3. Mrs. Cooper says that Rataczak told her that he could see the lights of Vancouver to the right. Not sure what that means. It sounds like perfect Jo Weber haze. But it could very well be V-23-ish, too.

4. Calame and Rhodes say that Scott told the folks at Himms' retirement party in 1980 that 305 was west of V-23 and over Woodland, WA.

5. Larry says V-23 All the Way to Red Bluff, CA!

6. Marianne Lincoln of Shady Acres Airport in Spanaway, WA says that the transmission from Seattle Center she heard were reporting east of V-23 to Gresham and then up the Columbia River Gorge.

7. Multiple eye witnesses allegedly report that they saw a burning object descend from a low-flying aircraft just west of the I-5 bridge over the Columbia, just about the time that 305 passed over the area.

So, what does this mishigas tell us about Norjak? It's just what the FBI likes for public consumption - perfectly mucked up or just another day in the Cooper Vortex?


(This post was edited by BruceSmith on Sep 21, 2014, 1:39 AM)

Bruce, the next time you are inclined to publish the above information (that Georger has quoted) just drink a bottle of your favorite beverage and get a good night's sleep.  Things will probably look better the next day.

What on God's Green Earth would the airliner be doing flying east up the Columbia River Gorge?  Reno is where it was headed and is a long way south of the Columbia River.

Where does Rataczak say that he saw the lights of Portland to the right of the aircraft?  As I remember it, Rataczak is quoted as just saying that he could see  the lights of Portland - Period.  From he seat on the right side of the aircraft, Rataczak could see objects on the ground on the left side of and in front of the aircraft.  If you are quoting Jo Weber correctly, she probably just jumped to the conclusion that if Rataczak saw some lights then they had to be on the right side of the airplane and that is simply not true.

If all of these stories about the airliner being east of V-23 and passing on the east side of Portland, then why were all the planes that tried to intercept the airliner, including Himmelsbach's helicopter, vectored to the west and southwest sides of Portland?

You refer to yourself as a "Cooper Investigator" and journalist.  So please don't add more layers of nonsense to the onion.  If possible, help peel off some layers of the onion and get everything back to the actual facts.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on May 23, 2018, 04:19:59 PM
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@ Bruce.
The presentations you posted on YouTube are very well done.  I watched all of them and was impressed with your presentation skills and for your ability to convey the Cooper story to the public.

I have a couple of questions about comments you make during those presentations.

1) Re: Tina Bar money find. You mention that the pilot, Bill Rataczak, requested and was denied permission to fly out over the ocean.  After that idea was  nixed you theorize that Rataczak opted to fly as far east in the flight corridor as permissible in order to take DBC over more remote terrain and therefore Cooper's LZ would have been further east than what the FBI calculated. 
Question: wouldn't Rataczak have informed the FBI of this during his interviews so they would know where to look? After all, he was angry and wanted Cooper dead or caught as you said?

2) Re: Criticisim of the FBI for not getting their suits dirty and beating the bushes to look for Cooper. Question:  How many FBI agents where assigned to this case and available to go searching for Cooper in the suspected LZ? What percentage of the LZ could they have covered in one week's time?   I recall reading somewhere that the USAF flew SR-71 and other reconnaissance missions in support of the manhunt.  Any truth to that and wouldn't that be more effective than sending all available personnel into the woods where they would be out of contact during a critical time in the case?

Thank you, Mack.

1. You ask a reasonable question about what Rataczak would have told the FBI about his flight path and where they should be looking for DB Cooper. It seems that Rataczak did tell Himmelsbach that 305 was east of Victor 23 and probably  over the Washougal. But when did he tell him? That is not known, really. Certainly not by me. Also, when and to what degree did Rataczak push the Washougal information towards the Seattle FBI agents? Again, unknown.

2. As I understand the case, about 30 agents were assigned to Norjak on the night of the skyjacking. This comes from Sid Rubin, a rookie SA on the case that night at Sea-Tac perimeter duty. Another SA rookie, George Grobin, told me that about two-dozen FBI agents were in the Amboy-Ariel area for the ground searches in March and April 1972. They did not get their shoes too muddy, but they were nearby. Over the course of the investigation, Bob Sale told Sailshaw and me that about five agents were assigned in Seattle  to Cooper through the first few years, with other Seattle agents being assigned as squads got special assignments, such as interviewing SOG guys at Fort Bragg, etc.

Yes, an SR-71 was assigned to fly recon over the potential LZ, but it was hampered most of the time due to cloud cover. I think it only had one or two "successful" missions. Geoffrey Gray discusses this aspect of the investigation in his  book, SKYJACK. There has been discussion here about a more reasonable technological means - using infrared devices immediately via helos and flying through the night to search for a warm body in the woods. Yes, the false reads due to wildlife would be staggering, but it is a plausible approach. Now, I would imagine that the NSA has got high tech gizmos on satellites to accomplish the same task.

Tom McDowell, the Cowlitz County Undersheriff who headed the ground search in LZ-A said that his search area was approximately 24 square miles, and his team of 20-24 deputies and volunteers covered about one square mile of terrain from Friday at 1pm until Monday morning when the search was terminated. That's basically three days with 20 guys to cover 5% of the prime LZ.

Bottom Line: A needle in a haystack is still a needle in a haystack even when you're looking with the latest gear.

Babbayaga says:


BruceSmith

Sep 21, 2014, 1:08 AM
Post #55550 of 58140 (23917 views)
Shortcut
   
     Where was 305? [In reply to]    
I see there is a lot of talk about chatting with Rataczak to clarify where 305 was when Cooper jumped.

That might be useful, but I also think it would be worthwhile to review what has already been revealed by the principals.

1. Rataczak told me he did know where 305 was when DBC jumped. Later in our 70-minute phone conversation he said that 305 was east of V-23 by a couple miles due to the wind.

2. Himmelsbach told me that Rataczak told him that 305 was over the Washougal.

3. Mrs. Cooper says that Rataczak told her that he could see the lights of Vancouver to the right. Not sure what that means. It sounds like perfect Jo Weber haze. But it could very well be V-23-ish, too.

4. Calame and Rhodes say that Scott told the folks at Himms' retirement party in 1980 that 305 was west of V-23 and over Woodland, WA.

5. Larry says V-23 All the Way to Red Bluff, CA!

6. Marianne Lincoln of Shady Acres Airport in Spanaway, WA says that the transmission from Seattle Center she heard were reporting east of V-23 to Gresham and then up the Columbia River Gorge.

7. Multiple eye witnesses allegedly report that they saw a burning object descend from a low-flying aircraft just west of the I-5 bridge over the Columbia, just about the time that 305 passed over the area.

So, what does this mishigas tell us about Norjak? It's just what the FBI likes for public consumption - perfectly mucked up or just another day in the Cooper Vortex?


(This post was edited by BruceSmith on Sep 21, 2014, 1:39 AM)

Bruce, the next time you are inclined to publish the above information (that Georger has quoted) just drink a bottle of your favorite beverage and get a good night's sleep.  Things will probably look better the next day.

What on God's Green Earth would the airliner be doing flying east up the Columbia River Gorge?  Reno is where it was headed and is a long way south of the Columbia River.

Where does Rataczak say that he saw the lights of Portland to the right of the aircraft?  As I remember it, Rataczak is quoted as just saying that he could see  the lights of Portland - Period.  From he seat on the right side of the aircraft, Rataczak could see objects on the ground on the left side of and in front of the aircraft.  If you are quoting Jo Weber correctly, she probably just jumped to the conclusion that if Rataczak saw some lights then they had to be on the right side of the airplane and that is simply not true.

If all of these stories about the airliner being east of V-23 and passing on the east side of Portland, then why were all the planes that tried to intercept the airliner, including Himmelsbach's helicopter, vectored to the west and southwest sides of Portland?

You refer to yourself as a "Cooper Investigator" and journalist.  So please don't add more layers of nonsense to the onion.  If possible, help peel off some layers of the onion and get everything back to the actual facts.

Its all Smith's gaslighting - (Gaslighting is a tactic in which a person or entity, in order to gain more power, makes a victim question their reality. It works much better than you may think. Anyone is susceptible to gaslighting, and it is a common technique of abusers, dictators, narcissists, and cult leaders.)

The timeline and scenario is simple. You would think even for gaslighters! But no for some reason there always has to be a ten page editorial and tons of speculation ignoring simple basic facts, as is this case. This was all fully hashed out at Dropzone while Smith was sleeping.

1. Prior to money find in 1980 DZ is Merwin Lake area with some thought it might have been further south somewhere near V23. (DING! BRUCE SMITH ALERT!see SanFrancisco conference.)

2. Money is found 1980 - hydrologist reports mentioning Washougal drainage basin for first time ever. (DING! BRUCE SMITH WHISTLE ALERT!!  First time ever).

3. Himmelsbach retirement. First mention by Scott and Rataczak to Himmelsbach only over coffee and donuts, it might have been east of V23, even east by 20 miles?  Or what the hell - 90 miles. Lets have a party!. Ignore all previous testimony!

Its all at Dropzone while Bruce Smith was sleeping contemplating his next route to fame and glory.

Sorry to interrupt! Please continue with the regularly scheduled Bruce Smith gaslighting gobblewobble reports. Who know - maybe Schroedinger in in this somewhere. And more Ramtha Psychoanalysis of Rataczak and Cotton Weed ... 
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: andrade1812 on May 24, 2018, 01:39:21 AM
I made my book available to members here when it first came out... To anyone who actually read it, could you do me a huge favor?

Give the book an honest review on Amazon:

Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/dp/1539694429/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_U_x_T9KbBbF4D58Y0)

Thank you

Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 24, 2018, 03:56:14 AM
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...Its all Smith's gaslighting...


Wrong, Georger. I am reporting what others have said. According to your definition of the term, it would appear that you are gaslighting the readers here at the DB Cooper Forum.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: foxmanb on May 24, 2018, 10:18:50 AM
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7. Multiple eye witnesses allegedly report that they saw a burning object descend from a low-flying aircraft just west of the I-5 bridge over the Columbia, just about the time that 305 passed over the area.


(This post was edited by BruceSmith on Sep 21, 2014, 1:39 AM)

Perhaps his dynamite wasn't dynamite at all, perhaps they were safety flares which DB used to light the way when he felt he was close to the ground?
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: fcastle866 on May 24, 2018, 11:18:55 AM
This has been discussed before.  I am of the belief that the bomb was railroad flares.  I am also of the belief that a flare might have been useful to see where he was going, but it would difficult to pull out while under the canopy.  Doable for a real experienced jumper, but for a less experienced one?  Maybe he used the flares to burn up the briefcase.  I personally think that he would have had enough light to see the ground coming up, or to use the para cord to lower the money, like a paratrooper would lower his equipment, just before hitting the ground.
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: RaoulDuke24 on May 24, 2018, 12:20:19 PM
The way Cooper's "bomb" was described makes it sound like a reasonable possibility that it was in fact some flares bundled together.

When you combine that with eyewitness reports of some sort of "fire ball" falling from the sky, it's possible that something like this might have played out:

Cooper had a few accomplices on the ground, each stationed several miles apart from north to south. Cooper jumped with a burning flare so an accomplice could see where he bailed and track him to a general area on the ground. Once on the ground, Cooper may have lit another flare to signal his location (although this of course is obviously quite risky when your buddy isn't the only one interested in knowing your location).

So the purpose of the flares could have been two-fold: Serve as a decoy for a bomb and also to signal to an accomplice.

Question is, are there flares that are safe to hold? And even jump out of a plane with? Could the flare burn up the canopy of his chute? Any chance it's even feasible to do? (I know nothing about flares and have never played with one, probably for good reason).

If it isn't quite realistic, perhaps he lit one and tossed it out of the plane immediately before jumping. Of course he wouldn't land anywhere near the flare, but it could at least signal the jumping out spot.

Just one of a million possibilities.   
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: 377 on May 24, 2018, 12:52:17 PM
Ordinary road flares can be hand held without severe danger. Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONLavzG0TaA

The dangerous part is the molten sulfur oxide mess  that drips as the fuel is burned. Freefalling with an ignited one held in your hand would be dangerous as the molten goop might come up towards you at 120 mph freefall speeds. I'd have no trouble igniting one after my canopy was open and holding it in my hand.

The fuel has some rare components, but no Yttrium.

https://www.awdirect.com/product_images/graphics/pdf_flx-flares.pdf


377
Title: Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Post by: georger on May 24, 2018, 01:53:10 PM
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This has been discussed before.  I am of the belief that the bomb was railroad flares.  I am also of the belief that a flare might have been useful to see where he was going, but it would difficult to pull out while under the canopy.  Doable for a real experienced jumper, but for a less experienced one?  Maybe he used the flares to burn up the briefcase.  I personally think that he would have had enough light to see the ground coming up, or to use the para cord to lower the money, like a paratrooper would lower his equipment, just before hitting the ground.

Nobody smelled a flare having been ignited in the plane or on the stairs. So if he had flares and ignited one it must have left no trace in the plane.

If it was flares why did he wire the eight flares like a real bomb? To convince who?