Author Topic: Book Discussion About DB Cooper  (Read 60938 times)

Offline Lynn

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #300 on: February 10, 2018, 10:57:32 PM »
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e/The problem I see sometimes is the authors will insert there own terminology to an event, usually exaggerating the statement to the fullest...
that could be. I do think that it is possible that Cooper could have younger than thought regardless if he jumped up and down or was acting childish. A person in their mid 40's wouldn't be as likely to act that way.

Well, I'm 68 and you'd be surprised how excited I would be with an unexpected pile of moolah at my feet. BTW: The "child-like" behavior comment has been attributed only to Flo. I have never read or heard that Tina characterized DBC as child-like.
Agreed. I'm about to turn 50, and while my body may feel some changes, silly behaviour/thought is no less likely (though it may take a different form) than when I was twenty. I jumped up and down the other day because someone brought lemon loaf to work (I love lemon loaf), and decided today I would love to sneakily live in IKEA. For 200 grand I would literally hop all over the living room like Skippy the Bush Kangaroo. I also yelled a great number of obscenities when my hockey team lost in an OT shootout tonight. And there are a few (in)famous people I can reel off at the drop of a hat who have displayed some VERY immature behaviour of late.



Re: the incident mentioned - I've also only seen it mentioned by Flo. Tina did mention him offering her a wad of the money, though.

BTW, can someone confirm for me that Cooper was in a windowless seat? I read somewhere about a refueling guy seeing him looking out the window but don't remember where I read it.

Mind you, psych studies have shown ppl have trouble distinguishing their real memories from things they used to imagine. That tends to happen over time, which is why I also tend to give more weight to interviews conducted immediately after the incident.

BTW, what's up with the passengers named Simmons? They were interviewed a bunch of places where they claimed to have seen Cooper, but am not finding interviews with them in the FBI docs. Have ALL the interviews been released?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 11:06:09 PM by Lynn »
 

Robert99

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #301 on: February 10, 2018, 11:34:43 PM »
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e/The problem I see sometimes is the authors will insert there own terminology to an event, usually exaggerating the statement to the fullest...
that could be. I do think that it is possible that Cooper could have younger than thought regardless if he jumped up and down or was acting childish. A person in their mid 40's wouldn't be as likely to act that way.

Well, I'm 68 and you'd be surprised how excited I would be with an unexpected pile of moolah at my feet. BTW: The "child-like" behavior comment has been attributed only to Flo. I have never read or heard that Tina characterized DBC as child-like.
Agreed. I'm about to turn 50, and while my body may feel some changes, silly behaviour/thought is no less likely (though it may take a different form) than when I was twenty. I jumped up and down the other day because someone brought lemon loaf to work (I love lemon loaf), and decided today I would love to sneakily live in IKEA. For 200 grand I would literally hop all over the living room like Skippy the Bush Kangaroo. I also yelled a great number of obscenities when my hockey team lost in an OT shootout tonight. And there are a few (in)famous people I can reel off at the drop of a hat who have displayed some VERY immature behaviour of late.



Re: the incident mentioned - I've also only seen it mentioned by Flo. Tina did mention him offering her a wad of the money, though.

BTW, can someone confirm for me that Cooper was in a windowless seat? I read somewhere about a refueling guy seeing him looking out the window but don't remember where I read it.

Mind you, psych studies have shown ppl have trouble distinguishing their real memories from things they used to imagine. That tends to happen over time, which is why I also tend to give more weight to interviews conducted immediately after the incident.

BTW, what's up with the passengers named Simmons? They were interviewed a bunch of places where they claimed to have seen Cooper, but am not finding interviews with them in the FBI docs. Have ALL the interviews been released?

Cooper's seat was in a row that did have a window and all the rows had a window.  Cooper and one of the refueling men did make eye contact through one of the windows.  Cooper was not necessarily seated at the time that happened.
 
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georger

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #302 on: February 10, 2018, 11:41:03 PM »
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e/The problem I see sometimes is the authors will insert there own terminology to an event, usually exaggerating the statement to the fullest...
that could be. I do think that it is possible that Cooper could have younger than thought regardless if he jumped up and down or was acting childish. A person in their mid 40's wouldn't be as likely to act that way.

Well, I'm 68 and you'd be surprised how excited I would be with an unexpected pile of moolah at my feet. BTW: The "child-like" behavior comment has been attributed only to Flo. I have never read or heard that Tina characterized DBC as child-like.
Agreed. I'm about to turn 50, and while my body may feel some changes, silly behaviour/thought is no less likely (though it may take a different form) than when I was twenty. I jumped up and down the other day because someone brought lemon loaf to work (I love lemon loaf), and decided today I would love to sneakily live in IKEA. For 200 grand I would literally hop all over the living room like Skippy the Bush Kangaroo. I also yelled a great number of obscenities when my hockey team lost in an OT shootout tonight. And there are a few (in)famous people I can reel off at the drop of a hat who have displayed some VERY immature behaviour of late.



Re: the incident mentioned - I've also only seen it mentioned by Flo. Tina did mention him offering her a wad of the money, though.

BTW, can someone confirm for me that Cooper was in a windowless seat? I read somewhere about a refueling guy seeing him looking out the window but don't remember where I read it.

Mind you, psych studies have shown ppl have trouble distinguishing their real memories from things they used to imagine. That tends to happen over time, which is why I also tend to give more weight to interviews conducted immediately after the incident.

BTW, what's up with the passengers named Simmons? They were interviewed a bunch of places where they claimed to have seen Cooper, but am not finding interviews with them in the FBI docs. Have ALL the interviews been released?

Ckret saoid the Simon's 'latter-day[' testimony was suspect. He said it conflicted with their first interview testimony.

As to Mucklow vs Flo re money. "When passengers were gone Schaffner and Alice talked to Cooper while Mucklow went out to bring in the parachutes one or several at a time. Cooper remarked about how heavy the money was. He seemed amused and child-like.' (Flo interview)

Mucklow may not have been there when Cooper got excited about the money ?

'The stairs truck came to the front door and Mucklow left via the front door and went to the car carrying the money, chutes, food, maps, and a radio for cockpit communications.. At this time the hijacker got up and went to the aft lavatory. When Mucklow returned the hijacker was back in his seat. Mucklow dragged a white canvas money bag down the isle (right in fron ot the passangers) to where the hijacker was sitting and placed it on seat 18-D next to the hijacker. The hijacker looked through the bag and said that it was  ‘now alright for the passengers to get off the plane’. Mucklow notified the pilot and the pilot made an announcement ‘the passengers could now leave the aircraft’.  (Interview 2)

'(When she received the bag containing the money on the ground) She took the bag containing the money back to seat 18-E where the hijacker was seated.
He opened the bag and inspected the contents which Mucklow said she observed was money packed in small packages with bank-type bands around each package. Having inspected the money in a cursory fashion the hijacker stated that “it looks ok” and then indicated to Mucklow that the crew could now let the passengers deplane. She stated that she called the cockpit on the intercom with this message and an announcement was made from the cockpit that passengers could disembark. 

Mucklow recalls that at this time while the passengers were unloading, in an attempt at being humorous, she suggested to the hijacker ‘that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and could she have some’! The hijacker agreed with her suggestion and reached in and took out one package of the money, denominations not recalled by Mucklow, and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her! Mucklow states that she laughed and gave the money back to the hijacker stating ‘she was not permitted to accept gratuities’, or words to that effect. In a similar vein Mucklow recalls that at one time during the flight the hijacker had pulled some single bills from his pocket (change from a $20 he was given earlier for a drink he had purchased) and attempted to (give the bills back) to tip the girls on the crew. (He was told then they could not accept tips). So again, they declined in compliance with company policy.' (Mucklow interview 1)       


 

   
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 11:41:44 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #303 on: February 11, 2018, 01:18:22 AM »
Sluggo advised me several years ago to discount the Simmons' account, as he felt they were too caught up in being celebrities to be credible. This comports with the general feeling about Richard and Barbara Simmons.

There are a LOT of missing 302s on the passengers. There is nothing about Michael Cooper - and he was interviewed by three different agents who still managed to FUBAR that debriefing. Two agents were dispatched to Missoula to investigate Mike's acquaintances. Mike ended up being fired from his teaching position at Missoula High School due to suspicions about him being DB Cooper - and also for cutting out from school early and not telling his boss - who didn't know that Mike had left town when the FBI called him at home on Wednesday night.
 
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georger

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #304 on: February 11, 2018, 01:25:17 AM »
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Sluggo advised me several years ago to discount the Simmons' account, as he felt they were too caught up in being celebrities to be credible. This comports with the general feeling about Richard and Barbara Simmons.

There are a LOT of missing 302s on the passengers. There is nothing about Michael Cooper - and he was interviewed by three different agents who still managed to FUBAR that debriefing. Two agents were dispatched to Missoula to investigate Mike's acquaintances. Mike ended up being fired from his teaching position at Missoula High School due to suspicions about him being DB Cooper - and also for cutting out from school early and not telling his boss - who didn't know that Mike had left town when the FBI called him at home on Wednesday night.

I remember all of this - Sluggo and Ckret were in constant communication off line. Ckret dismissed Simmons on DZ for the reasons you cite, if you recall.

Did Simmons actually give a description? Any description? Didnt he say Cooper barked/glared at him passing by? I dont remember one if he did.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 01:28:53 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #305 on: February 11, 2018, 01:54:54 AM »
I have very little knowledge of Richard Simmons' testimony.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #306 on: February 11, 2018, 08:20:16 AM »
Simmons' was on "In Search Of" back in the late 70's..his wife spoke as well...


''
 
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georger

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #307 on: February 11, 2018, 12:46:16 PM »
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Simmons' was on "In Search Of" back in the late 70's..his wife spoke as well...


''


The only suspect mentioned in this docu is - Robt Rackstraw! Says, totally cleared. Then Colbert brings Rackstraw up all over again decades later, Colbert avoids the previous clearing by the FBI completely and goes on and on with his production. All of this happening at the very time in history that forensic science has advanced to the point where it actually offers advanced tools never available before, which could address the DB Cooper case.

Maybe the FBI has closed this case simply to try and suppress public involvement, so it can address the case in private on its own terms, for a change. The public side of the Cooper case has become so heavy and demanding, it had to be costing the FBI in resources. Dealing with the public is not free and can actually hamper investigating a case in the internet age.

It is also interesting to me that to date, Colbert has not used many modern forensic tools and methods available to crime investigators today. Colbert and his world class team have produced nothing and look like a bunch of Luddites! What accounts for that? It's a curious juxtaposition in 2018! Why is Colbert focusing on primitive methods and ideas vs modern forensic science? It's a puzzlement.   :)

Colbert and his team seem to be totally clueless about how modern investigations work? Mountains of advertising and promos' do not suffice for a modern criminal investigation today!
 
 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 01:06:45 PM by georger »
 

Offline Check-Six

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #308 on: February 11, 2018, 01:43:08 PM »
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The only suspect mentioned in this docu is - Robt Rackstraw! Says, totally cleared. Then Colbert brings Rackstraw up all over again decades later, Colbert avoids the previous clearing by the FBI completely and goes on and on with his production. All of this happening at the very time in history that forensic science has advanced to the point where it actually offers advanced tools never available before, which could address the DB Cooper case.

Maybe the FBI has closed this case simply to try and suppress public involvement, so it can address the case in private on its own terms, for a change. The public side of the Cooper case has become so heavy and demanding, it had to be costing the FBI in resources. Dealing with the public is not free and can actually hamper investigating a case in the internet age.

It is also interesting to me that to date, Colbert has not used many modern forensic tools and methods available to crime investigators today. Colbert and his world class team have produced nothing and look like a bunch of Luddites! What accounts for that? It's a curious juxtaposition in 2018! Why is Colbert focusing on primitive methods and ideas vs modern forensic science? It's a puzzlement.   :)

Colbert and his team seem to be totally clueless about how modern investigations work? Mountains of advertising and promos' do not suffice for a modern criminal investigation today!

Thanks for the bit of humor. Considering the amount of modern investigative tools and tech actually being applied in the CCT work, it is obvious you haven't looked at the DNA comparisons and other reports of the analysis work.
"Mountains of advertising and promos'"? That's the History Channel and the filming, not the team... Just like failing to mention the previous "clearing" in the 2016 show (and, to which, no explanation as to why he was cleared has been provided by the bureau).
But hey - it has always been easier to throw stones than to gather stone together.
 
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Offline Lynn

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #309 on: February 11, 2018, 01:53:48 PM »
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Simmons' was on "In Search Of" back in the late 70's..his wife spoke as well...


''


The only suspect mentioned in this docu is - Robt Rackstraw! Says, totally cleared. Then Colbert brings Rackstraw up all over again decades later, Colbert avoids the previous clearing by the FBI completely and goes on and on with his production. All of this happening at the very time in history that forensic science has advanced to the point where it actually offers advanced tools never available before, which could address the DB Cooper case.

Maybe the FBI has closed this case simply to try and suppress public involvement, so it can address the case in private on its own terms, for a change. The public side of the Cooper case has become so heavy and demanding, it had to be costing the FBI in resources. Dealing with the public is not free and can actually hamper investigating a case in the internet age.

It is also interesting to me that to date, Colbert has not used many modern forensic tools and methods available to crime investigators today. Colbert and his world class team have produced nothing and look like a bunch of Luddites! What accounts for that? It's a curious juxtaposition in 2018! Why is Colbert focusing on primitive methods and ideas vs modern forensic science? It's a puzzlement.   :)

Colbert and his team seem to be totally clueless about how modern investigations work? Mountains of advertising and promos' do not suffice for a modern criminal investigation today!
Entirely in agreement, Georger. This is the video that prompted my questions about the Simmons couple - it is invaluable in my writing for other reasons, ie. I can SEE what airports looked like in the 70s to make my fiction more realistic - but it also blew my mind when I watched it a few weeks back. (1) This video was from 1979 and Rackstraw was already done. Yet here we are, almost 40 years later, and Uncle Bob is still around.  (2) This couple, one of whom says Cooper glared at him, and no FBI interview.

I'm such a Cooper nerd now, my hubby laughs. I'm screaming at the TV during this doc like it's a hockey game. It's also what prompted my brief side-foray into the vagaries of memory. They may well have gotten caught up in the celeb aspect of the case. Or they may actually have convinced themselves they remember now what they once only imagined. It's entirely possible some other suit glared at Simmons, or that no one did, or that he's remembering something from another time in his life.

Am delighted someone provided a variation on a quote I've always loved - "don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity." Humans make errors, and I don't necessarily think the more glaring errors in the FBI NORJAK investigation were due to a cover-up. After all, the biggest feather in their cap would be to solve the thing, regardless if it implicated someone in the Bureau or pointed to sloppy work by decades-earlier agents. It's the same reason I don't buy the motive "Cooper did this to embarrass the FBI." At that particular point in aviation history, the FBI didn't need his help.

Georger may be right, it may well be that the sheer amount of public input, curiosity, and criticism of the case, not the mention the hundreds of suspects brought to their attention, were hampering the feds more than helping them.

There's still something niggling at me about the History doc, namely the timing. Why close the case in conjunction with such a dramatic doc? Though, come to think of it, it may have been a way of getting a jump on Colbert. Tina herself eliminated Rackstraw, which is set and match for most viewers. By systematically eliminating each of the major named suspects as of that time, History helped the FBI show why closing the case seemed logical. (Caveat: to my mind, the doc didn't do that great a job eliminating most of the suspects - it piqued my own interest in a completely different suspect when I first saw it, in fact - but even in the early days of my own falling down this rabbit hole, I couldn't take Rackstraw seriously as a suspect and didn't understand why they were devoting so much of the doc to him and showing Tina only his photo.)

We can also probably assume they've kept back at least some factoids or scraps of evidence for the purpose of eliminating anyone else who might come forward to "confess", though at this point the prankster would have to be an elderly man.

Oh, weird little synchronicity. My sister just posted a video of Skippy the Bush Kangaroo. Huge show among kids in Canada (it was an Aussie import) in 1971 and I once again imagined DB jumping for middle-aged joy at the money. I mentioned Skippy on one of these threads yesterday. So for any Jungians out there, I'm taking this as a sign to keep looking. Or maybe to stay young at heart.  Or maybe I'm getting money. Oh, I hope it's that one. ;)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 02:02:45 PM by Lynn »
 

georger

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #310 on: February 11, 2018, 02:14:06 PM »
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Simmons' was on "In Search Of" back in the late 70's..his wife spoke as well...


''


The only suspect mentioned in this docu is - Robt Rackstraw! Says, totally cleared. Then Colbert brings Rackstraw up all over again decades later, Colbert avoids the previous clearing by the FBI completely and goes on and on with his production. All of this happening at the very time in history that forensic science has advanced to the point where it actually offers advanced tools never available before, which could address the DB Cooper case.

Maybe the FBI has closed this case simply to try and suppress public involvement, so it can address the case in private on its own terms, for a change. The public side of the Cooper case has become so heavy and demanding, it had to be costing the FBI in resources. Dealing with the public is not free and can actually hamper investigating a case in the internet age.

It is also interesting to me that to date, Colbert has not used many modern forensic tools and methods available to crime investigators today. Colbert and his world class team have produced nothing and look like a bunch of Luddites! What accounts for that? It's a curious juxtaposition in 2018! Why is Colbert focusing on primitive methods and ideas vs modern forensic science? It's a puzzlement.   :)

Colbert and his team seem to be totally clueless about how modern investigations work? Mountains of advertising and promos' do not suffice for a modern criminal investigation today!
Entirely in agreement, Georger. This is the video that prompted my questions about the Simmons couple - it is invaluable in my writing for other reasons, ie. I can SEE what airports looked like in the 70s to make my fiction more realistic - but it also blew my mind when I watched it a few weeks back. (1) This video was from 1979 and Rackstraw was already done. Yet here we are, almost 40 years later, and Uncle Bob is still around.  (2) This couple, one of whom says Cooper glared at him, and no FBI interview.

I'm such a Cooper nerd now, my hubby laughs. I'm screaming at the TV during this doc like it's a hockey game. It's also what prompted my brief side-foray into the vagaries of memory. They may well have gotten caught up in the celeb aspect of the case. Or they may actually have convinced themselves they remember now what they once only imagined. It's entirely possible some other suit glared at Simmons, or that no one did, or that he's remembering something from another time in his life.

Am delighted someone provided a variation on a quote I've always loved - "don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity." Humans make errors, and I don't necessarily think the more glaring errors in the FBI NORJAK investigation were due to a cover-up. After all, the biggest feather in their cap would be to solve the thing, regardless if it implicated someone in the Bureau or pointed to sloppy work by decades-earlier agents. It's the same reason I don't buy the motive "Cooper did this to embarrass the FBI." At that particular point in aviation history, the FBI didn't need his help.

Georger may be right, it may well be that the sheer amount of public input, curiosity, and criticism of the case, not the mention the hundreds of suspects brought to their attention, were hampering the feds more than helping them.

There's still something niggling at me about the History doc, namely the timing. Why close the case in conjunction with such a dramatic doc? Though, come to think of it, it may have been a way of getting a jump on Colbert. Tina herself eliminated Rackstraw, which is set and match for most viewers. By systematically eliminating each of the major named suspects as of that time, History helped the FBI show why closing the case seemed logical. (Caveat: to my mind, the doc didn't do that great a job eliminating most of the suspects - it piqued my own interest in a completely different suspect when I first saw it, in fact - but even in the early days of my own falling down this rabbit hole, I couldn't take Rackstraw seriously as a suspect and didn't understand why they were devoting so much of the doc to him and showing Tina only his photo.)

We can also probably assume they've kept back at least some factoids or scraps of evidence for the purpose of eliminating anyone else who might come forward to "confess", though at this point the prankster would have to be an elderly man.

Oh, weird little synchronicity. My sister just posted a video of Skippy the Bush Kangaroo. Huge show among kids in Canada (it was an Aussie import) in 1971 and I once again imagined DB jumping for middle-aged joy at the money. I mentioned Skippy on one of these threads yesterday. So for any Jungians out there, I'm taking this as a sign to keep looking. Or maybe to stay young at heart.  Or maybe I'm getting money. Oh, I hope it's that one. ;)

Good post! Thanks or sharing your thoughts. I have something Sluggo said years ago and will post it later when I locate it again. Its interesting to note how different people see this case, and their different thoughts about Cooper. Ive always thought Sluggo (Wayne Walker) had some good insights about this case. Sluggo developed a good relationship with Ckret .... I miss Sluggo greatly. He could always keep people on track and was universally liked.  ;) 

Best of luck with your writing!   
 
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Offline Lynn

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #311 on: February 11, 2018, 02:15:16 PM »
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Simmons' was on "In Search Of" back in the late 70's..his wife spoke as well...


Good post! Thanks or sharing your thoughts. I have something Sluggo said years ago and will post it later when I locate it again. Its interesting to note how different people see this case, and their different thoughts about Cooper. Ive always thought Sluggo (Wayne Walker) had some good insights about this case. Sluggo developed a good relationship with Ckret .... I miss Sluggo greatly. He could always keep people on track and was universally liked.  ;) 

Best of luck with your writing!
Thank you so much! And not sure who Ckret is, but love the handle!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 02:55:23 PM by Lynn »
 

Offline Lynn

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #312 on: February 11, 2018, 02:41:03 PM »
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Simmons' was on "In Search Of" back in the late 70's..his wife spoke as well...


''

By the way, interesting to see Cossey in his younger years in this video, and singing a very different tune than he did years later re: Cooper's prospects of survival.
 

Offline Lynn

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #313 on: February 11, 2018, 02:57:53 PM »
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[quote author=Shutter link=topic=43.msg20823#msg20823 date=151835521

Maybe the FBI has closed this case simply to try and suppress public involvement, so it can address the case in private on its own terms, for a change. The public side of the Cooper case has become so heavy and demanding, it had to be costing the FBI in resources. Dealing with the public is not free and can actually hamper investigating a case in the internet age.

*****
"It was really one of those things , you know, the authorities said...'best leave it unsolved..."


 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #314 on: February 11, 2018, 03:19:52 PM »
Quote
Thank you so much! And not sure who Ckret is, but love the handle!

Ckret was Agent Larry Carr who was on Dropzone.com

have you had a chance to read the PDF of his comments?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 03:20:31 PM by Shutter »
 
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