DB COOPER

General Category => DB Cooper => Topic started by: Shutter on November 10, 2019, 08:27:04 PM

Title: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Shutter on November 10, 2019, 08:27:04 PM
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Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: EU on November 10, 2019, 08:48:50 PM
Very cool.

Let's start the thread off right by inviting people to celebrate--or acknowledge--the 48th Anniversary of the DB Cooper skyjacking at CooperCon 2019. The official website is https://DBCooperCon.com.

CooperCon 2019 takes place on Saturday, November 23rd at Kiggins Theatre in Vancouver, WA. It's an all day event from 10AM - 5PM.

There will be social events starting the evening of Friday, November 22nd. The last evening of activities is Sunday, November 24th.

CooperCon 2019 is "Everything DB Cooper!"

Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: EU on November 12, 2019, 12:47:14 PM
11 days from CooperCon 2019.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: 377 on November 12, 2019, 01:27:10 PM
Hard to choose between EU's boat pilgrimage to the holy site and Bruce's generously hosted land tour of Cooper Territory.
I'm arriving Friday evening and departing Monday morning. I especially want to attend the evening brew chats. Last year members of the general public (not Vortex folks) attended these events and came forward with interesting questions and even possible Cooper evidence. None of the evidence panned out but who knows? Some evening it could happen, the clue that ties it all together. We Vortex dwellers like to think that it will be one of us who solves the case, but it's more likely that it will be a friend or relative of Cooper's who finds the probative link.

Too bad TK and his crew can't attend. Good sleuths and good folks. I'll miss them.

377
 
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: 377 on November 12, 2019, 01:29:59 PM
I hope Shutter lets Georger back on after a cooling down period. Georger can be grouchy, but he adds a lot of value. He raises the average IQ of any forum he joins. I actually wish he'd attend CooperCon.

Jerry Thomas was at times irascible on Dropzone. In-person, at the first Portland Symposium, he was a perfect gentleman. I'd love to publically debate the survivability of Cooper's jump with Jerry someday. I have a lot of respect for his qualifications and opinions but I think he is wrong that it was an almost certainly fatal jump.

377
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: EU on November 12, 2019, 03:04:01 PM
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Too bad TK and his crew can't attend. Good sleuths and good folks. I'll miss them.

377
 

Tom mentioned to me yesterday that he'd be interesting in speaking with the CooperCon crowd via Skype if we can work it out technologically. I'm checking into that, so, there is a possibility that after we run Tom's 2018 talk about the tie and tie particles, he may be on-hand live via Skype to answer audience questions.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 12, 2019, 03:19:11 PM
Skyping with Tom would be fantastic. I hope it happens.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 12, 2019, 03:48:09 PM
Road Tour Update - The Itinerary

The countryside of Hockinson is lovely. It will really surprise many Cooperites, I  believe, as it did me. It looks today very similarly as it did in 1971. Large dairy farmlands, no major hills, gentle rolling terrain. It looked ideal for an LZ.

We will meet at the Shari's in Orchards, WA at 1 pm. Shari's is a restaurant in the Fred Meyer shopping mall at the southeast corner of 76th and 117th. The latter thoroughfare is also known and posted as State Route 500/503.

Orchards is where the FBI thought DBC jumped in its 1975 revised analysis, putting the new LZ in the Hockinson area, about 3-5 northeast of Orchards.

Orchards was rural agricultural lands in 1971, but now it is a fully integrated part of the Portland-Vancouver metroplex. But Hockinson is just beyond the reach of those urban encroachments. In fact, Hockinson is now the bedroom/playground community for the very wealthy of SW Washington.

To reach Hockinson, first we'll leave Shari's and head north on 500/503 to their junction, then turn east on 500 and continue approximately five miles to 182nd Avenue. There we will turn north and head to Hockinson.

From Hochinson we will motor north, and then west back to SR 503 in Battleground, which is the original jump-off spot, and travel northeast along 503 to Amboy, the initial LZ. There we will leave 503 again and explore the forestlands along Cedar Creek Road where the initial ground search began on November 27th and continued until Sunday, November 29.

Next, we'll travel to Bernice Rhodes' home and antique store at the intersection of Pup Creek Road and Spurriel Road - just north of Cedar Creek Road - to hear her account of the intense house-to-house search for DB Cooper in that neighborhood conducted by the FBI in early December, 1971.

Afterwards, folks will have to make a decision - travel 25 miles northeast along SR 503 to Lake Merwin, the Dam, and the Ariel Tavern, or join me and other hungry Cooperites and head along the southern flank of the Lewis River via Cedar Creek Road to Woodland and arrive at La Casa Tapatia for dinner. Note: LCT is on 503, too!

After din-din, the intrepid can travel east on 503 for 12 miles to the Ariel Tavern and the Merwin Dam complex. That's an easy drive compared to the circuitous route on 503 from Amboy, which will take at least 30-40 minutes of curvy, mountainous driving. The area east of Lake Merwin can be quite rugged.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: EU on November 12, 2019, 07:00:49 PM
One cool new event at CooperCon will be a 40-minute "DB Cooper Jeopardy" trivia game. Bruce will host the game which will involve three members from the audience.

With this in mind, if you have a good DB Cooper trivia question that Bruce may want to ask perhaps it could be posted here. This may help Bruce given he is the MC for the game.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Shutter on November 12, 2019, 07:13:19 PM
He jumped out of a 727 on November 24, 1971....who was......... :rofl:
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: EU on November 12, 2019, 07:16:54 PM
Bruce could go with a basic question such as: What denomination was the bills delivered to DB Cooper?
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Shutter on November 12, 2019, 07:23:43 PM
Easy one should be the name of the airline..
Hard might be where the plane landed..
Name two of the stews with the third to answer
DB Cooper was an alias for.....
How many parachutes
Coopers drink

Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 13, 2019, 05:23:53 PM
I love these - thanks!
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 13, 2019, 06:07:56 PM
CooperCon 2019 Jeopardy Questions

Since I assume that most folks here will either not be at CooperCon or will disqualify themselves from this contest to allow REAL people to take a crack at Cooper Lore, I'm posting my list of suggested Jeopardy Questions for fun and feedback:

CooperCon 2019 Jeopardy Questions, 11. 13. 19

1.   Now owned by Delta Airlines, the plane DB Cooper stole was owned and operated by this airline: _________________

2.   After DB Cooper jumped, his 727 landed at what airport?

3.   At 24 years-old, the leader of the flight attendants was Alice Hancock. At 22, the youngest FA was Tina Mucklow. At 23, who was the third flight attendant?

4.   DB Cooper was an alias for.....

5.   How many parachutes were delivered to DB Cooper as part of his ransom?

6.   DB Cooper had one drink. What was it?

7.   1st Officer Bill Rataczak was flying DB Cooper’s plane on the getaway flight, but who was the Captain?

8.   DB Cooper’s ransom bills were all what denomination?

9.   DB Cooper was given $200,000 in a bank bag. How much did all that money weigh?

10.    Having passed away recently at 94 years-old, FBI Special Agent Ralph Himmelsbach was arguably the most famous federal investigator in the DB Cooper case. But who was the FBI Special Agent actually in charge?

11.    Officially, the FBI calls the DB Cooper case by what name?

12.    Murdered in 2013 by a still-unidentified assailant, this man was the de facto technical expert on parachutes for the FBI.

13.    DB Cooper specifically chose a 727 to hijack because it had a special feature that no other airplanes had. What was it?

14.    After DB Cooper stole his airplane, 12 domestic skyjackers copied Cooper. Can you name any of them?

15.    To thwart future DB Cooper Copy Cats, in 1972 the FAA required Boeing to retro-fit all 727s with this device.

16.    Although the FBI officially closed the DB Cooper case in 2016, what private investigative organization it founded in 2009 is still examining evidence in the case?

17.    Known to many as “Twisty Butt,” her uncle was the last suspect in the DB Cooper case that the FBI investigated. What was the name of the uncle and his niece?

18.    Although she refused to speak publicly for 30 years and spent 12 of those years in a cloistered convent, she remains the primary witness in the DB Cooper case. Who is she?

19.    Across the river from PDX where the DB Cooper skyjacking started, this city is also the closest urban area to where DB Cooper most likely landed when he jumped.

20.    Although no alcohol is served at this “bar,” it is the place where three bundles of ransom money were found in 1980. What is the name of the money discovery site?

21.    The FBI has investigated how many suspects, approximately?

22.    Although exact numbers are hard to determine, over 900 people are known to have confessed to the DB Cooper skyjacking. True or false.

23.    Using the moniker “Ckret,” this FBI special agent revitalized the investigation when he took over in 2007. What is his name?

24. Along with his boss, SAC Frank Montoya, Jr., this FBI agent closed the case in 2016 citing the lack of any new leads and the need to re-distribute Bureau resources.

Email me your answers and if you win, you will get a PRIZE.

Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on November 13, 2019, 06:29:39 PM
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CooperCon 2019 Jeopardy Questions

Since I assume that most folks here will either not be at CooperCon or will disqualify themselves from this contest to allow REAL people to take a crack at Cooper Lore, I'm posting my list of suggested Jeopardy Questions for fun and feedback:

CooperCon 2019 Jeopardy Questions, 11. 13. 19

1.   Now owned by Delta Airlines, the plane DB Cooper stole was owned and operated by this airline: _________________

2.   After DB Cooper jumped, his 727 landed at what airport?

3.   At 24 years-old, the leader of the flight attendants was Alice Hancock. At 22, the youngest FA was Tina Mucklow. At 23, who was the third flight attendant?

4.   DB Cooper was an alias for.....

5.   How many parachutes were delivered to DB Cooper as part of his ransom?

6.   DB Cooper had one drink. What was it?

7.   1st Officer Bill Rataczak was flying DB Cooper’s plane on the getaway flight, but who was the Captain?

8.   DB Cooper’s ransom bills were all what denomination?

9.   DB Cooper was given $200,000 in a bank bag. How much did all that money weigh?

10.    Having passed away recently at 94 years-old, FBI Special Agent Ralph Himmelsbach was arguably the most famous federal investigator in the DB Cooper case. But who was the FBI Special Agent actually in charge?

11.    Officially, the FBI calls the DB Cooper case by what name?

12.    Murdered in 2013 by a still-unidentified assailant, this man was the de facto technical expert on parachutes for the FBI.

13.    DB Cooper specifically chose a 727 to hijack because it had a special feature that no other airplanes had. What was it?

14.    After DB Cooper stole his airplane, 12 domestic skyjackers copied Cooper. Can you name any of them?

15.    To thwart future DB Cooper Copy Cats, in 1972 the FAA required Boeing to retro-fit all 727s with this device.

16.    Although the FBI officially closed the DB Cooper case in 2016, what private investigative organization it founded in 2009 is still examining evidence in the case?

17.    Known to many as “Twisty Butt,” her uncle was the last suspect in the DB Cooper case that the FBI investigated. What was the name of the uncle and his niece?

18.    Although she refused to speak publicly for 30 years and spent 12 of those years in a cloistered convent, she remains the primary witness in the DB Cooper case. Who is she?

19.    Across the river from PDX where the DB Cooper skyjacking started, this city is also the closest urban area to where DB Cooper most likely landed when he jumped.

20.    Although no alcohol is served at this “bar,” it is the place where three bundles of ransom money were found in 1980. What is the name of the money discovery site?

21.    The FBI has investigated how many suspects, approximately?

22.    Although exact numbers are hard to determine, over 900 people are known to have confessed to the DB Cooper skyjacking. True or false.

23.    Using the moniker “Ckret,” this FBI special agent revitalized the investigation when he took over in 2007. What is his name?

24. Along with his boss, SAC Frank Montoya, Jr., this FBI agent closed the case in 2016 citing the lack of any new leads and the need to re-distribute Bureau resources.

Email me your answers and if you win, you will get a PRIZE.

Delta airlines does not own the Cooper 727.  It was scrapped, disassembled, and melted down quite a few years back.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 13, 2019, 08:17:15 PM
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1.   Now owned by Delta Airlines, the plane DB Cooper stole was owned and operated by this airline: _________________


Delta airlines does not own the Cooper 727.  It was scrapped, disassembled, and melted down quite a few years back.

True. But Delta owns what airlines that flew that 727?

Perhaps the original question is a little confusing.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on November 13, 2019, 10:50:32 PM
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1.   Now owned by Delta Airlines, the plane DB Cooper stole was owned and operated by this airline: _________________


Delta airlines does not own the Cooper 727.  It was scrapped, disassembled, and melted down quite a few years back.

The aircraft was transferred to Piedmont Air Lines in 1978 and then to Key Airlines in 1984.  It was broken up and scrapped by 1996.

True. But Delta owns what airlines that flew that 727?

Perhaps the original question is a little confusing.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 14, 2019, 04:10:38 AM
In general, are the questions too tough? Galen says, Yes, but he wants a better educated Cooperite, too, so....
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Parrotheadvol on November 14, 2019, 02:25:11 PM
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In general, are the questions too tough? Galen says, Yes, but he wants a better educated Cooperite, too, so....

I don't think so. I would think that anyone attending the event would at least have some basic knowledge of the case.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 14, 2019, 03:55:20 PM
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CooperCon 2019 Jeopardy Questions

Since I assume that most folks here will either not be at CooperCon or will disqualify themselves from this contest to allow REAL people to take a crack at Cooper Lore, I'm posting my list of suggested Jeopardy Questions for fun and feedback:

CooperCon 2019 Jeopardy Questions, 11. 13. 19

1.   Now owned by Delta Airlines, the plane DB Cooper stole was owned and operated by this airline: _________________

2.   After DB Cooper jumped, his 727 landed at what airport?

3.   At 24 years-old, the leader of the flight attendants was Alice Hancock. At 22, the youngest FA was Tina Mucklow. At 23, who was the third flight attendant?

4.   DB Cooper was an alias for.....

5.   How many parachutes were delivered to DB Cooper as part of his ransom?

6.   DB Cooper had one drink. What was it?

7.   1st Officer Bill Rataczak was flying DB Cooper’s plane on the getaway flight, but who was the Captain?

8.   DB Cooper’s ransom bills were all what denomination?

9.   DB Cooper was given $200,000 in a bank bag. How much did all that money weigh?

10.    Having passed away recently at 94 years-old, FBI Special Agent Ralph Himmelsbach was arguably the most famous federal investigator in the DB Cooper case. But who was the FBI Special Agent actually in charge?

11.    Officially, the FBI calls the DB Cooper case by what name?

12.    Murdered in 2013 by a still-unidentified assailant, this man was the de facto technical expert on parachutes for the FBI.

13.    DB Cooper specifically chose a 727 to hijack because it had a special feature that no other airplanes had. What was it?

14.    After DB Cooper stole his airplane, 12 domestic skyjackers copied Cooper. Can you name any of them?

15.    To thwart future DB Cooper Copy Cats, in 1972 the FAA required Boeing to retro-fit all 727s with this device.

16.    Although the FBI officially closed the DB Cooper case in 2016, what private investigative organization it founded in 2009 is still examining evidence in the case?

17.    Known to many as “Twisty Butt,” her uncle was the last suspect in the DB Cooper case that the FBI investigated. What was the name of the uncle and his niece?

18.    Although she refused to speak publicly for 30 years and spent 12 of those years in a cloistered convent, she remains the primary witness in the DB Cooper case. Who is she?

19.    Across the river from PDX where the DB Cooper skyjacking started, this city is also the closest urban area to where DB Cooper most likely landed when he jumped.

20.    Although no alcohol is served at this “bar,” it is the place where three bundles of ransom money were found in 1980. What is the name of the money discovery site?

21.    The FBI has investigated how many suspects, approximately?

22.    Although exact numbers are hard to determine, over 900 people are known to have confessed to the DB Cooper skyjacking. True or false.

23.    Using the moniker “Ckret,” this FBI special agent revitalized the investigation when he took over in 2007. What is his name?

24. Along with his boss, SAC Frank Montoya, Jr., this FBI agent closed the case in 2016 citing the lack of any new leads and the need to re-distribute Bureau resources.

Email me your answers and if you win, you will get a PRIZE.

My sister, who is a professional editor and has edited about one-half of the third edition of DB Cooper and the FBI, got about half of these questions correct, generally with some prompting. Hmmmmm.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Shutter on November 14, 2019, 04:00:53 PM
Unless you followed DZ or this site nobody would know who twisty butt is...
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 14, 2019, 08:45:57 PM
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Unless you followed DZ or this site nobody would know who twisty butt is...

I was wondering about that. But I was unable to resistant my impulses.... But now, more will know!
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: EU on November 14, 2019, 09:43:05 PM
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Unless you followed DZ or this site nobody would know who twisty butt is...

I was wondering about that. But I was unable to resistant my impulses.... But now, more will know!

I think we need to exercise a little discretion here. Someone may be offended. We've got to keep it professional.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 15, 2019, 02:52:13 AM
Okay. Ol' Marla gets a pass.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: EU on November 15, 2019, 07:10:07 PM
Bruce put together a Monet-ish map depicting his DB Cooper Road Tour associated with CooperCon.

All can see the map masterpiece and read the description of the tour at: https://dbcoopercon.com/pages/db-cooper-road-tour-w-bruce-smith
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 15, 2019, 09:57:45 PM
Getting Ready for CooperCon 2019

I'm getting excited. I even wrote a song! If you'd like to read more about Cooper Con 2019, or hear "DB Cooper - An Author's Lament," head over the the Mountain News:

tps://themountainnewswa.net/2019/11/15/singing-db-cooper-an-authors-lament-recorded-as-cooper-world-gets-ready-for-the-48th-anniversary-with-coopercon-2019/

If you'd just like to hear my wailings about Norjak mysteries, go directly to YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQkXjqLGUjQ

 
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 16, 2019, 02:46:04 AM
Hat tip, of course, to Georger for coining the term, "three bundolas" of money at T-Bar.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: 377 on November 16, 2019, 08:34:14 AM
I’m generally not the PC type but I’m glad to see CooperCon decline to promulgate Jo Weber’s moniker for Marla. It was spawned out of spite and jealousy.  We Vortex dwellers shouldn’t republish Jo’s personal insults.

377
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: EU on November 22, 2019, 04:20:51 PM
Everyone is converging upon Portland and Vancouver today to kick off CooperCon 2019.

I'll make sure we get the word out on all of the goings on. Hopefully we can break into some new territory for the 48th Anniversary.

https://www.columbian.com/news/2019/nov/21/kiggins-to-host-a-coopercon-new-radio-play-about-the-historic-crime/?fbclid=IwAR0Ia6tG34NA5fbLg4eH6DC4Wy5-nrDT765s2UJ9IDpZ_q8oJQofVYJzdjE
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 22, 2019, 04:57:00 PM
Off to CooperCon! Woo - Hoo!
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: DavidV on November 24, 2019, 10:21:34 AM
Hello all. Haven't been on hear in a while but wanted to wish everyone who's going to Copper Con a safe and wonderful time.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: EU on November 24, 2019, 10:34:50 AM
CooperCon was great. I’ve linked an article about the event below. BTW, today is the 48th Anniversary of the skyjacking.

https://www.columbian.com/news/2019/nov/23/d-b-cooper-enthusiasts-land-in-vancouver-for-coopercon/
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: EU on November 24, 2019, 11:22:09 AM
I've posted a few pictures from CooperCon at the following link:

https://thecoopercase.com/pages/coopercon-2019
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: georger on November 24, 2019, 02:40:53 PM
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I've posted a few pictures from CooperCon at the following link:

https://thecoopercase.com/pages/coopercon-2019

What did Catherine Scott have to say?
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Shutter on November 24, 2019, 04:40:09 PM
I'm glad to see the event was a success. all of Roberts efforts paid off as usual....zero.  :rofl:
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: EU on November 24, 2019, 07:00:47 PM
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I've posted a few pictures from CooperCon at the following link:

https://thecoopercase.com/pages/coopercon-2019

What did Catherine Scott have to say?

I'm sure Bruce will write a comprehensive article about all the goings on at CooperCon.

That said, Catherine said a few notable things.

First, she brought up that her father mentioned that there was a debate between himself and Cooper about taking off with the airstairs down. Specifically, she said that Cooper demanded that the flight take-off from Seattle with the airstairs down but that her father told Cooper he would not attempt to take-off with the airstairs down, period. My impression was that this was a protracted discussion between Cooper and Scott, and that Scott laid down the law on this matter.

Second, she said that her father believed that Cooper likely died that night. Moreover, that the reason he believed this was because the conditions were poor and that there were plenty of hazards on the ground. I asked if he ever opined about Cooper's survivability after the money find in light of its relation to the FBI search zone and Catherine said no. She said her father rarely spoke about the skyjacking.

Finally, she stated that her father was a by-the-book kind of guy. His first priority was the safety of the crew and passengers. Additionally, that he never understood the fascination with Cooper by the public. In his mind, Cooper was a criminal plain and simple.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Shutter on November 24, 2019, 09:08:42 PM
Quote
Finally, she stated that her father was a by-the-book kind of guy. His first priority was the safety of the crew and passengers. Additionally, that he never understood the fascination with Cooper by the public. In his mind, Cooper was a criminal plain and simple

He sounds a lot like Ralph H. I had a feeling these guys were "by the book"...
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on November 24, 2019, 10:41:54 PM
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I've posted a few pictures from CooperCon at the following link:

https://thecoopercase.com/pages/coopercon-2019

What did Catherine Scott have to say?

I'm sure Bruce will write a comprehensive article about all the goings on at CooperCon.

That said, Catherine said a few notable things.

First, she brought up that her father mentioned that there was a debate between himself and Cooper about taking off with the airstairs down. Specifically, she said that Cooper demanded that the flight take-off from Seattle with the airstairs down but that her father told Cooper he would not attempt to take-off with the airstairs down, period. My impression was that this was a protracted discussion between Cooper and Scott, and that Scott laid down the law on this matter.

Second, she said that her father believed that Cooper likely died that night. Moreover, that the reason he believed this was because the conditions were poor and that there were plenty of hazards on the ground. I asked if he ever opined about Cooper's survivability after the money find in light of its relation to the FBI search zone and Catherine said no. She said her father rarely spoke about the skyjacking.

Finally, she stated that her father was a by-the-book kind of guy. His first priority was the safety of the crew and passengers. Additionally, that he never understood the fascination with Cooper by the public. In his mind, Cooper was a criminal plain and simple.

Did Catherine make any comments about the flight path?
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: georger on November 24, 2019, 11:59:10 PM
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I've posted a few pictures from CooperCon at the following link:

https://thecoopercase.com/pages/coopercon-2019

What did Catherine Scott have to say?

I'm sure Bruce will write a comprehensive article about all the goings on at CooperCon.

That said, Catherine said a few notable things.

First, she brought up that her father mentioned that there was a debate between himself and Cooper about taking off with the airstairs down. Specifically, she said that Cooper demanded that the flight take-off from Seattle with the airstairs down but that her father told Cooper he would not attempt to take-off with the airstairs down, period. My impression was that this was a protracted discussion between Cooper and Scott, and that Scott laid down the law on this matter.

Second, she said that her father believed that Cooper likely died that night. Moreover, that the reason he believed this was because the conditions were poor and that there were plenty of hazards on the ground. I asked if he ever opined about Cooper's survivability after the money find in light of its relation to the FBI search zone and Catherine said no. She said her father rarely spoke about the skyjacking.

Finally, she stated that her father was a by-the-book kind of guy. His first priority was the safety of the crew and passengers. Additionally, that he never understood the fascination with Cooper by the public. In his mind, Cooper was a criminal plain and simple.

Thanks Eric -

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20010315&slug=pilot15m

'D.B. Cooper' pilot dies; William Scott never talked much about 1971 skyjacking
By Susan Gilmore

For 30 years, William "Scotty" Scott said little about the world's most famous skyjacking, shunning assorted authors and movie producers who came knocking at his door.

Mr. Scott piloted the Northwest Orient Airlines jet hijacked by the infamous "D.B. Cooper" on Thanksgiving Eve 1971. He died of prostate cancer Sunday at his home in Green Valley, Ariz., taking to the grave much of what he knew about that fateful night, said his wife, Frances.

"When he came home that night," she said, "he told his family about it, and that was the end of it. He was a very quiet man. Very reserved."

Only in recent years had he begun to talk about the skyjacking that perplexed the FBI and continues to rivet those who think Cooper may have survived the jump of 10,000 feet into the blackness of a storm over Southwest Washington.

Her husband was convinced Cooper died in the leap, said Frances Scott. "He felt he jumped into Lake Merwin (Cowlitz County) and got tangled up in dead trees and died," she said.

On the 25th anniversary of the heist, Mr. Scott spoke to a local pilots club; 200 people showed up, said his wife.

Mr. Scott was the captain of the Boeing 727 when a passenger under the name of Dan Cooper boarded in Portland for the short flight to Seattle. Midway, he passed a note to a flight attendant, saying he had a bomb and demanding $200,000.

When the plane landed in Seattle, the other passengers were evacuated, and the FBI gave the skyjacker the ransom money and the four parachutes he had requested.

Cooper then ordered the pilot to fly toward Mexico, but he jumped from the plane somewhere near the Columbia River. Despite years of searching, all that has been found is $5,800 unearthed along the north bank of the Columbia.

Mr. Scott never saw Cooper. "He was intent on flying the plane and being able to get people out of there alive and save the aircraft for Northwest," said his widow.

Little by little, she said, her husband had begun to talk about it the past few years. "It was good for him," she said. "In later years, he'd get mad at authors. Scotty would say, 'No, that's not the way it happened.' They weren't there; he was." Scott refused calls from Mr. Tosaw.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: David on November 25, 2019, 11:29:44 AM
Hi, I just joined the forum and I came here because I have a lead.

But before I tell that story, I wanted to discuss the morality of chasing DB Cooper down.  I haven't heard much discussion from people around that issue.  My question is what are the ethics of turning in a 90+ year old guy that committed a crime almost 50 years ago with no serious victims? 

I have an interesting lead, but the people involved, including the suspect, were nice to me.  I think that would be the case for other people that are close to suspects.  I think most people here are chasing him down without a personal connection so many of you don't have that conflict.  I haven't gone to the FBI for that reason.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on November 25, 2019, 11:43:31 AM
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Hi, I just joined the forum and I came here because I have a lead.

But before I tell that story, I wanted to discuss the morality of chasing DB Cooper down.  I haven't heard much discussion from people around that issue.  My question is what are the ethics of turning in a 90+ year old guy that committed a crime almost 50 years ago with no serious victims? 

I have an interesting lead, but the people involved, including the suspect, were nice to me.  I think that would be the case for other people that are close to suspects.  I think most people here are chasing him down without a personal connection so many of you don't have that conflict.  I haven't gone to the FBI for that reason.

David,

Before you jump off the deep end, you need to keep in mind that reportedly 900+ people have claimed to be DB Cooper and not a single one of them checked out.  And it is highly unlikely that your suspect will check out either.  So I hope you will not be offended if no one on this thread accepts the claims of your suspect at face value.

But you and your suspect are free to make whatever claims you want.  Any claims will vigorously reviewed by people on this site.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: 377 on November 25, 2019, 01:35:28 PM
I think there is little risk of a successful prosecution. The FBI’s loss of the cigarette butts provides good grounds for a dismissal motion based on spoliation of evidence. I wouldn’t worry about going public with your findings.

The FBI allegedly has over 900 alleged confessions and probably 10x that number in “sure thing” tips. Not one arrest has been made.

Absent independent proof that a suspect was on the plane all confessions must be viewed with extreme skepticism.

377
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: nickyb233 on November 25, 2019, 01:38:53 PM
Catherine told me her dad told her Tinas eyes got big when the money came on board and cooper offered her some. She had to decline and said no no no we can’t do that. That confirms the reports that cooper offered Tina some of the loot which to me begs the question if you were risking your life essentially for this money then why such a cavalier attitude about money? Why be so willing to give some away? To me this gives credence to the notion that it wasn’t about the money for cooper. The conference was a great success and I really enjoyed myself, kudos again to EU for making this happen.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: 377 on November 25, 2019, 01:40:40 PM
And by the way before you get too warm, fuzzy and protective of a suspect remember that the crew was terrorized by a credible bomb threat. I am sure they worried that Cooper would arrange for detonation just after his exit to destroy all physical evidence and possible eyewitness testimony.

Cooper deserves no adulation or kid glove treatment just because he is “nice” today. He wasn’t nice when he made a bomb threat.

377
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: nickyb233 on November 25, 2019, 01:41:29 PM
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Hi, I just joined the forum and I came here because I have a lead.

But before I tell that story, I wanted to discuss the morality of chasing DB Cooper down.  I haven't heard much discussion from people around that issue.  My question is what are the ethics of turning in a 90+ year old guy that committed a crime almost 50 years ago with no serious victims? 

I have an interesting lead, but the people involved, including the suspect, were nice to me.  I think that would be the case for other people that are close to suspects.  I think most people here are chasing him down without a personal connection so many of you don't have that conflict.  I haven't gone to the FBI for that reason.

Welcome to the DBC David! What ya got?
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: 377 on November 25, 2019, 01:55:22 PM
Coopercon 2019 was a blast. Great venue in a restored Art Deco movie theater. Lively presentations and audience dialog. The evening brew pub gatherings were just wonderful. Warm camaraderie and spirited dialogue. Those evening gatherings just keep getting better and better.

Really enjoyed meeting Darren and his lovely wife. Darren has proven to be a valuable addition to the Vortex populace. His podcasts are great and his Coopercon summary presentation of all the suspects was crisp and articulate.

Also enjoyed meeting Nicky, Bill Rollins and a number of audience members who know a lot about the case but never post online. Nicky found a possible source of Yttrium in welding rods. I don’t think
welders wear ties while welding but it could possibly have been transferred from other garb to a tie.

Bruce and I respectfully sparred on the utility of remote viewing as an investigative tool.

I can’t wait for the next Coopercon.

377






Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on November 25, 2019, 02:28:02 PM
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And by the way before you get too warm, fuzzy and protective of a suspect remember that the crew was terrorized by a credible bomb threat. I am sure they worried that Cooper would arrange for detonation just after his exit to destroy all physical evidence and possible eyewitness testimony.

Cooper deserves no adulation or kid glove treatment just because he is “nice” today. He wasn’t nice when he made a bomb threat.

377

In fact, information was passed to the flight crew that the FAA Chief Psychologist had predicted that Cooper would take a hostage with him when he jumped (this would be Tina) and that he would blow up the aircraft when jumping.  Consequently, the flight crew had suggested that they get above the overcast and then fly out over the Pacific Ocean while the situation played out so as to avoid danger to people on the ground.

Rataczak wasn't joking when he said the flight crew expected to hear a big "boom" when Cooper jumped.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on November 25, 2019, 02:32:02 PM
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Catherine told me her dad told her Tinas eyes got big when the money came on board and cooper offered her some. She had to decline and said no no no we can’t do that. That confirms the reports that cooper offered Tina some of the loot which to me begs the question if you were risking your life essentially for this money then why such a cavalier attitude about money? Why be so willing to give some away? To me this gives credence to the notion that it wasn’t about the money for cooper. The conference was a great success and I really enjoyed myself, kudos again to EU for making this happen.

Captain Scott could not have had first hand knowledge of what happed to Tina's eyes when she gave the money bag to Cooper.  No one in the flight crew saw Cooper at any time during the entire hijacking. 
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: David on November 25, 2019, 02:36:18 PM
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David,

Before you jump off the deep end, you need to keep in mind that reportedly 900+ people have claimed to be DB Cooper and not a single one of them checked out.  And it is highly unlikely that your suspect will check out either.  So I hope you will not be offended if no one on this thread accepts the claims of your suspect at face value.

But you and your suspect are free to make whatever claims you want.  Any claims will vigorously reviewed by people on this site.

Absolutely. I agree.  I'm a professional engineer and I'm naturally a skeptic, including of myself.

My story ties in well with the titanium, which to be honest is the only hard evidence and the rest being anecdotal.  But the anecdotal fits quite well and there is a bunch of it.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: David on November 25, 2019, 02:38:37 PM
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I think there is little risk of a successful prosecution. The FBI’s loss of the cigarette butts provides good grounds for a dismissal motion based on spoliation of evidence. I wouldn’t worry about going public with your findings.

I thought they had his DNA.  If they get a match, would that not be a sure conviction?
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: David on November 25, 2019, 02:43:19 PM
If I'm going to tell my story, my preference would be to have a 1 on 1 call with Bruce Smith.  He can filter my story for us.  If he calls BS and concludes it's unlikely, then I'd rather not post the story, so as not to publicly name people.  If he thinks the odds are solid and realistic, then I would post the whole story here.  Sound fair?  1/2 hour call is all I need.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: georger on November 25, 2019, 02:54:06 PM
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If I'm going to tell my story, my preference would be to have a 1 on 1 call with Bruce Smith.  He can filter my story for us.  If he calls BS and concludes it's unlikely, then I'd rather not post the story, so as not to publicly name people.  If he thinks the odds are solid and realistic, then I would post the whole story here.  Sound fair?  1/2 hour call is all I need.

Tell it in: Suspects And Confessions ... that is the thread for Suspects and Confessions.

You are posting in the Cooper Con thread!

Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: nickyb233 on November 25, 2019, 03:12:54 PM
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Catherine told me her dad told her Tinas eyes got big when the money came on board and cooper offered her some. She had to decline and said no no no we can’t do that. That confirms the reports that cooper offered Tina some of the loot which to me begs the question if you were risking your life essentially for this money then why such a cavalier attitude about money? Why be so willing to give some away? To me this gives credence to the notion that it wasn’t about the money for cooper. The conference was a great success and I really enjoyed myself, kudos again to EU for making this happen.

Captain Scott could not have had first hand knowledge of what happed to Tina's eyes when she gave the money bag to Cooper.  No one in the flight crew saw Cooper at any time during the entire hijacking.

He didn’t witness it obviously but he did have to opportunity to speak to Tina after the incident and hear it straight from her. Anyway that’s what she told me and it backs up the other reports of cooper offering Tina some of the loot.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: EU on November 25, 2019, 03:17:18 PM
I concur that CooperCon was a lot of fun, very successful, and much improved this year. In part, because food and drinks were on hand.

Also, getting the opportunity to speak with Catherine Scott and see her dad's captain's hat on the artifact table was very cool. She has committed to coming out to the 50th Anniversary CooperCon in 2021.

We were all very fortunate that Catherine's significant other was also on hand and that he is a captain for American Airlines. Moreover, he has flown the 727 extensively during his career. We actually pulled him on stage to answer some questions from those in attendance. He will be back as well for the 50th with Catherine.

Darren, Mark, Bruce and Tom Kaye's 2018 re-play talk were all very well done. Additionally, the panel session which involved the aforementioned along with Vern Jones, Bill Rollins and myself, along with the audience, was very cool too.

I couldn't agree more with 377 about the evening get-togethers. We had a lot of people show up, and frankly they kept coming. Not only was there talk about DBC, there was also talk about other stuff too, and a resounding rendition of Bruce's new DBC song that he sang live, guitar in-hand, with about a dozen half inebriated CooperCon attendees. All said, a lot of fun.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: nickyb233 on November 25, 2019, 04:40:14 PM
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Coopercon 2019 was a blast. Great venue in a restored Art Deco movie theater. Lively presentations and audience dialog. The evening brew pub gatherings were just wonderful. Warm camaraderie and spirited dialogue. Those evening gatherings just keep getting better and better.

Really enjoyed meeting Darren and his lovely wife. Darren has proven to be a valuable addition to the Vortex populace. His podcasts are great and his Coopercon summary presentation of all the suspects was crisp and articulate.

Also enjoyed meeting Nicky, Bill Rollins and a number of audience members who know a lot about the case but never post online. Nicky found a possible source of Yttrium in welding rods. I don’t think
welders wear ties while welding but it could possibly have been transferred from other garb to a tie.

Bruce and I respectfully sparred on the utility of remote viewing as an investigative tool.

I can’t wait for the next Coopercon.

377

I couldn’t agree more Mark and it was an honor and a pleasure meeting you. You have been a mainstay in this community longer then just about everybody. A welder wouldn’t be wearing a tie but a manager or engineer overseeing the work would. Yttrium is used in tungsten electrode filler rods/wire used in fusion welding processes. The material found in the electrodes end up in the welding fumes. There are different  types of TIG welding rods and there identified by the color of there tip there is the rare earth blend (grey), yttrium (blue), pure tungsten (green), lanthanated (gold), Ceriated (orange), thoriated (red),and zirconiated (brown.)Yttrium, lanthanum, zirconium, and cerium which are used in these tungsten electrodes were all found on the mccrones lab report. The yttrium electrodes are primarily used in aviation. I learned commercial pure ti filler metal rods/wire are also used. I have a government document on the Boeing SST that says they used cp ti rods/wire for there welding processes on the SST. It also names the different manufacturers they used for there cp ti rods, one of them being RMI who used the hunter process to manufacture there cp ti, the hunter process used salt not your regular ole table salt but a rare/unusual type of salt which was only found in this ti making process, Kaye compared the salts on the tie to the ones from RMI and found them to be very close. Welding fumes also contain a host of metals some being very toxic (Cr), cobalt (Co), copper (Cu), iron (Fe), lead (Pb), mercury (Hg), molybdenum (Mo), nickel (Ni), zinc (Zn), antimony (Sb), cadmium (Cd), and vanadium (V) all of which were also found on the mccrones lab report. Kaye didn’t have an answer for how these toxic elements ended up on cooper tie...well I came up with a good one with welding fumes.


https://www.osha.gov/Publications/OSHA_FS-3647_Welding.pdf
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: nickyb233 on November 25, 2019, 05:04:54 PM
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I concur that CooperCon was a lot of fun, very successful, and much improved this year. In part, because food and drinks were on hand.

Also, getting the opportunity to speak with Catherine Scott and see her dad's captain's hat on the artifact table was very cool. She has committed to coming out to the 50th Anniversary CooperCon in 2021.

We were all very fortunate that Catherine's significant other was also on hand and that he is a captain for American Airlines. Moreover, he has flown the 727 extensively during his career. We actually pulled him on stage to answer some questions from those in attendance. He will be back as well for the 50th with Catherine.

Darren, Mark, Bruce and Tom Kaye's 2018 re-play talk were all very well done. Additionally, the panel session which involved the aforementioned along with Vern Jones, Bill Rollins and myself, along with the audience, was very cool too.

I couldn't agree more with 377 about the evening get-togethers. We had a lot of people show up, and frankly they kept coming. Not only was there talk about DBC, there was also talk about other stuff too, and a resounding rendition of Bruce's new DBC song that he sang live, guitar in-hand, with about a dozen half inebriated CooperCon attendees. All said, a lot of fun.

Gavin was a great resource. What he said about being able to see a glow from the lights of Portland is one of the great little nuggets I took away from this weekend. I got a video of the performance Eric, I will upload it to YouTube and post it here.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Shutter on November 25, 2019, 08:09:21 PM
What kind of welder are you talking about?

rods/wire for there welding processes

sounds like a stick and tig welders
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: nickyb233 on November 25, 2019, 08:51:32 PM
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What kind of welder are you talking about?

rods/wire for there welding processes

sounds like a stick and tig welders

All forms  of fusion welding (heat only) use electrodes...TIG is one form of fusion welding.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Shutter on November 25, 2019, 09:01:46 PM
Tig uses gas a hardly any smoke....have you ever welded or worked in a shop? you don't seem to have a clue how things work. especially, in a large warehouse...
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: EU on November 25, 2019, 09:05:40 PM
BTW Shutter, did the placard arrive?
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Shutter on November 25, 2019, 09:06:36 PM
that would be a negative....it appears to have drifted off lol
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: nickyb233 on November 25, 2019, 09:15:51 PM
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Tig uses gas a hardly any smoke....have you ever welded or worked in a shop? you don't seem to have a clue how things work. especially, in a large warehouse...

Nope that’s why I joined different welding Facebook groups to learn and I talked with many welders. TIG might not produce visible smoke but it gives off an ozone of nano particles which are very real and very hazardous to these guys health. They have all kinds of medical issues because of it. Just because there is no smoke doesn’t mean there are no particles (fumes) being expelled into the environment, there nano which are not visible to the naked eye shut. If Kaye/mccrones  didn’t use an electron microscope they wouldn’t of been picked up.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on November 25, 2019, 10:52:22 PM
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Tig uses gas a hardly any smoke....have you ever welded or worked in a shop? you don't seem to have a clue how things work. especially, in a large warehouse...

Nope that’s why I joined different welding Facebook groups to learn and I talked with many welders. TIG might not produce visible smoke but it gives off an ozone of nano particles which are very real and very hazardous to these guys health. They have all kinds of medical issues because of it. Just because there is no smoke doesn’t mean there are no particles (fumes) being expelled into the environment, there nano which are not visible to the naked eye shut. If Kaye/mccrones  didn’t use an electron microscope they wouldn’t of been picked up.

Nickyb233,

Are you suggesting that all, or at least the majority, of the particles found on the tie could come from the SST work area at Boeing?
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: nickyb233 on November 26, 2019, 02:03:23 AM
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Tig uses gas a hardly any smoke....have you ever welded or worked in a shop? you don't seem to have a clue how things work. especially, in a large warehouse...

Nope that’s why I joined different welding Facebook groups to learn and I talked with many welders. TIG might not produce visible smoke but it gives off an ozone of nano particles which are very real and very hazardous to these guys health. They have all kinds of medical issues because of it. Just because there is no smoke doesn’t mean there are no particles (fumes) being expelled into the environment, there nano which are not visible to the naked eye shut. If Kaye/mccrones  didn’t use an electron microscope they wouldn’t of been picked up.

Nickyb233,

Are you suggesting that all, or at least the majority, of the particles found on the tie could come from the SST work area at Boeing?

Precisely or one of the other super sonic/aerospace projects pre 71...I spoke with newcomer David and his suspect worked on the SR-22 blackbird which would of been doing the same cutting edge/exploratory metallurgy work that would require fusion welding, the use of Silicon Spheres and commercially pure ti which would account for a good number of particles found on the mccrones report. It’s a very small pool of people cooper was swimming in when you peel back the onion on these tie particles.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: nickyb233 on November 26, 2019, 02:08:28 AM
Rob did you know because of the financial bind Boeing was in, in 1971, they were off from thanksgiving until New Year’s Day? If cooper worked for Boeing that is very ideal, don’t have to be work on Monday and after the holidays DB cooper wouldn’t of been fresh in anyone’s mind.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 26, 2019, 02:31:37 AM
Interesting.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: georger on November 26, 2019, 03:34:38 AM
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Rob did you know because of the financial bind Boeing was in, in 1971, they were off from thanksgiving until New Year’s Day? If cooper worked for Boeing that is very ideal, don’t have to be work on Monday and after the holidays DB cooper wouldn’t of been fresh in anyone’s mind.

fresh in anyone’s mind ?  You mean forgotten? Or the hottest thing going in many people's minds! ?  ;)
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Darren on November 26, 2019, 12:05:04 PM
What a great event! It was so much to hang out with everyone in person. I had an absolute blast and I'm already looking forward to next year!

Thank you to everyone!
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on November 26, 2019, 01:15:46 PM
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Rob did you know because of the financial bind Boeing was in, in 1971, they were off from thanksgiving until New Year’s Day? If cooper worked for Boeing that is very ideal, don’t have to be work on Monday and after the holidays DB cooper wouldn’t of been fresh in anyone’s mind.

You are absolutely correct that Boeing, as well as aircraft companies in Southern California and elsewhere, had really big problems in the early 1970s.  This was an industry wide cataclysm where tens of thousands of aerospace workers, including thousands of engineers, lost their jobs.  I think Boeing alone lost about 30 or 40 thousand people.  In that time frame, I got off an airliner at LAX (Los Angeles) one afternoon and while waiting for my luggage saw a newspaper headline that one of the major aircraft companies there (I think it was North American) was cancelling the health benefits to its furloughed employees.  And the Engineers Club in the city where I got my aeronautical engineering degree was publicly advising students not to major in engineering. 
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: 377 on November 27, 2019, 02:01:13 PM
R99 wrote: "And the Engineers Club in the city where I got my aeronautical engineering degree was publicly advising students not to major in engineering."

Shockingly short-sighted advice. The four years I spent getting my BSEE from UC Berkeley paid off hugely later on. The job market in engineering was not so good when I graduated so I decided to go to law school for three years.  Later on, when the tech boom started, an engineering degree was a ticket into all sorts of jobs even outside of engineering. Employers know that engineers can solve all sorts of problems through a disciplined analytical process. When I ran a corporate legal department I liked to hire lawyers with engineering degrees. They could tell the difference between signal and noise.

You don't have to possess an engineering degree to be a good engineer. I have seen self-taught ones do truly incredible things.   

377
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on November 27, 2019, 02:10:14 PM
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R99 wrote: "And the Engineers Club in the city where I got my aeronautical engineering degree was publicly advising students not to major in engineering."

Shockingly short-sighted advice. The four years I spent getting my BSEE from UC Berkeley paid off hugely later on. The job market in engineering was not so good when I graduated so I decided to go to law school for three years.  Later on, when the tech boom started, an engineering degree was a ticket into all sorts of jobs even outside of engineering. Employers know that engineers can solve all sorts of problems through a disciplined analytical process. When I ran a corporate legal department I liked to hire lawyers with engineering degrees. They could tell the difference between signal and noise.

You don't have to possess an engineering degree to be a good engineer. I have seen self-taught ones do truly incredible things.   

377

On your last sentence above, reportedly one of Lockheed's most creative engineers on the U-2 and other projects only graduated from high school.  He reportedly listed a library in the Los Angeles area on his post high school  educational qualifications.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: georger on November 27, 2019, 02:48:52 PM
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R99 wrote: "And the Engineers Club in the city where I got my aeronautical engineering degree was publicly advising students not to major in engineering."

Shockingly short-sighted advice. The four years I spent getting my BSEE from UC Berkeley paid off hugely later on. The job market in engineering was not so good when I graduated so I decided to go to law school for three years.  Later on, when the tech boom started, an engineering degree was a ticket into all sorts of jobs even outside of engineering. Employers know that engineers can solve all sorts of problems through a disciplined analytical process. When I ran a corporate legal department I liked to hire lawyers with engineering degrees. They could tell the difference between signal and noise.

You don't have to possess an engineering degree to be a good engineer. I have seen self-taught ones do truly incredible things.   

377

Lots of military trained techs even including directors of some programs got caught up in 'credential wars' that started in the late 1970s. I literally watched people at JPL and NASA actually lose their positions and be replaced by credentialed novices who had no experience, as this nonsense played out. Whole programs went down the tubes! It started with Congressional funders and Congressional bureaucrats suddenly requiring credentials as part of their funding application process. Oh course most of those 'bureaucratic political assholes' who were revising application processes were themselves "uncredentialed"! Private Industries like Bendix and Raytheon stepped on a tried to slow down the destructive process ... in the end the governmental credentialers got their way. Whole programs collapsed!

This nonsense may have set this country back 50 years! And it still hasnt been worked out. It resulted in total chaos which lasts to this day.

I know a guy who was a records orderly in 1962 at UIHC who eventually got his phd and was doing research at UIHC ... he got sick and everything collapsed on him. By 1980 he was destitute and divorced with two kids to raise. He finally got well enough to work again and he could not get hired by anybody! A records orderly position came open at UIHC and he went over to apply and was told he did not qualify! He would have to go back to Kirkwood Comm College and take their two year Records Orderly course to ... learn how to spell and alphabetize! He still has a letter from these a-holes at UIHC that literally spells this nonsense out.  He wound up homeless and almost committed suicide. Two years later he got a letter from UIHC asking him if he had now completed the Kirkwood course to become a 'records orderly'!  He took the letter back over to Personnel at UIHC and tore it up in front of the director's face.

So, if you get defunded due to the credentials wars and wind up sleeping under the bridge, just make sure you complete the Kirkwood College Records Orderly course so you can prove you can alphabetize and spell 'cat'.

I watched countless people and whole programs go down the tubes because of this nonsense, starting in the 1970s. This country may never recover from this mendacity.           

I watched a whole NASA program collapse because of the credential wars. The program was staffed and run by former military people who were top notch in their fields but lack academic credentials! The program was run through Raytheon and Bendix corporations. Universities and NASA were threatened with defunding by government bureaucrats due to a lack of 'credentialed people working in the program' ... and the whole program collapsed.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on November 27, 2019, 06:14:14 PM
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R99 wrote: "And the Engineers Club in the city where I got my aeronautical engineering degree was publicly advising students not to major in engineering."

Shockingly short-sighted advice. The four years I spent getting my BSEE from UC Berkeley paid off hugely later on. The job market in engineering was not so good when I graduated so I decided to go to law school for three years.  Later on, when the tech boom started, an engineering degree was a ticket into all sorts of jobs even outside of engineering. Employers know that engineers can solve all sorts of problems through a disciplined analytical process. When I ran a corporate legal department I liked to hire lawyers with engineering degrees. They could tell the difference between signal and noise.

You don't have to possess an engineering degree to be a good engineer. I have seen self-taught ones do truly incredible things.   

377

Lots of military trained techs even including directors of some programs got caught up in 'credential wars' that started in the late 1970s. I literally watched people at JPL and NASA actually lose their positions and be replaced by credentialed novices who had no experience, as this nonsense played out. Whole programs went down the tubes! It started with Congressional funders and Congressional bureaucrats suddenly requiring credentials as part of their funding application process. Oh course most of those 'bureaucratic political assholes' who were revising application processes were themselves "uncredentialed"! Private Industries like Bendix and Raytheon stepped on a tried to slow down the destructive process ... in the end the governmental credentialers got their way. Whole programs collapsed!

This nonsense may have set this country back 50 years! And it still hasnt been worked out. It resulted in total chaos which lasts to this day.

I know a guy who was a records orderly in 1962 at UIHC who eventually got his phd and was doing research at UIHC ... he got sick and everything collapsed on him. By 1980 he was destitute and divorced with two kids to raise. He finally got well enough to work again and he could not get hired by anybody! A records orderly position came open at UIHC and he went over to apply and was told he did not qualify! He would have to go back to Kirkwood Comm College and take their two year Records Orderly course to ... learn how to spell and alphabetize! He still has a letter from these a-holes at UIHC that literally spells this nonsense out.  He wound up homeless and almost committed suicide. Two years later he got a letter from UIHC asking him if he had now completed the Kirkwood course to become a 'records orderly'!  He took the letter back over to Personnel at UIHC and tore it up in front of the director's face.

So, if you get defunded due to the credentials wars and wind up sleeping under the bridge, just make sure you complete the Kirkwood College Records Orderly course so you can prove you can alphabetize and spell 'cat'.

I watched countless people and whole programs go down the tubes because of this nonsense, starting in the 1970s. This country may never recover from this mendacity.           

I watched a whole NASA program collapse because of the credential wars. The program was staffed and run by former military people who were top notch in their fields but lack academic credentials! The program was run through Raytheon and Bendix corporations. Universities and NASA were threatened with defunding by government bureaucrats due to a lack of 'credentialed people working in the program' ... and the whole program collapsed.

You are correct!  I have heard of cases where organizations or firms would not be considered for some programs or contracts unless they had a certain number of people with graduate degrees in their organization.  I'm not sure the graduate degrees even had to be in a relevant field.

The Lockheed engineer that I mentioned above is the fellow who coined the term "Skunk Works" when he answered the telephone one day in the World War II era.  He was working on the P-80 design team developing America's first mass produced jet fighter at that time.  The Skunk Works name stuck and he used it because that team was working out of tents and there was a smelly garbage dump or some such thing nearby. 
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 27, 2019, 09:48:52 PM
I got canned from my last therapy job for having the wrong kind of master's degree. Despite my 14 years in psychiatry, the State wanted something closer to "psychology" or "counseling," rather than "Recreation on the Therapeutic Track." CUNY had two types of Rec degrees. One was therapeutic, (recreation for hospitals and nursing homes), and the other was public, as in "Parks and Recreation."
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on November 27, 2019, 10:04:43 PM
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I got canned from my last therapy job for having the wrong kind of master's degree. Despite my 14 years in psychiatry, the State wanted something closer to "psychology" or "counseling," rather than "Recreation on the Therapeutic Track." CUNY had two types of Rec degrees. One was therapeutic, (recreation for hospitals and nursing homes), and the other was public, as in "Parks and Recreation."

I selected my undergraduate school in part because they offered a degree with the title, "Bachelor of Science in Aeronautical Engineering".  In my early days, there were only a handful of engineering programs that offered degrees with "Aeronautical Engineering" in the title.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on November 28, 2019, 10:56:01 PM
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Tig uses gas a hardly any smoke....have you ever welded or worked in a shop? you don't seem to have a clue how things work. especially, in a large warehouse...

Nope that’s why I joined different welding Facebook groups to learn and I talked with many welders. TIG might not produce visible smoke but it gives off an ozone of nano particles which are very real and very hazardous to these guys health. They have all kinds of medical issues because of it. Just because there is no smoke doesn’t mean there are no particles (fumes) being expelled into the environment, there nano which are not visible to the naked eye shut. If Kaye/mccrones  didn’t use an electron microscope they wouldn’t of been picked up.

Nickyb233,

Are you suggesting that all, or at least the majority, of the particles found on the tie could come from the SST work area at Boeing?

Precisely or one of the other super sonic/aerospace projects pre 71...I spoke with newcomer David and his suspect worked on the SR-22 blackbird which would of been doing the same cutting edge/exploratory metallurgy work that would require fusion welding, the use of Silicon Spheres and commercially pure ti which would account for a good number of particles found on the mccrones report. It’s a very small pool of people cooper was swimming in when you peel back the onion on these tie particles.

Nicky,

The Blackbird was the SR-71.  The SR-22 was a civilian general aviation aircraft with a structure that was made of composite materials.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: nickyb233 on November 28, 2019, 11:49:53 PM
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Tig uses gas a hardly any smoke....have you ever welded or worked in a shop? you don't seem to have a clue how things work. especially, in a large warehouse...

Nope that’s why I joined different welding Facebook groups to learn and I talked with many welders. TIG might not produce visible smoke but it gives off an ozone of nano particles which are very real and very hazardous to these guys health. They have all kinds of medical issues because of it. Just because there is no smoke doesn’t mean there are no particles (fumes) being expelled into the environment, there nano which are not visible to the naked eye shut. If Kaye/mccrones  didn’t use an electron microscope they wouldn’t of been picked up.

Nickyb233,

Are you suggesting that all, or at least the majority, of the particles found on the tie could come from the SST work area at Boeing?

Precisely or one of the other super sonic/aerospace projects pre 71...I spoke with newcomer David and his suspect worked on the SR-22 blackbird which would of been doing the same cutting edge/exploratory metallurgy work that would require fusion welding, the use of Silicon Spheres and commercially pure ti which would account for a good number of particles found on the mccrones report. It’s a very small pool of people cooper was swimming in when you peel back the onion on these tie particles.

Nicky,

The Blackbird was the SR-71.  The SR-22 was a civilian general aviation aircraft with a structure that was made of composite materials.

Sorry got my sr’s mixed up I meant to say SR-71, thanks Robert.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: EU on December 01, 2019, 12:16:23 PM
I want to take this opportunity to publicly thank everyone who took part and contributed to this year's CooperCon.

This list includes:

1) Darren Schaefer
2) Mark Metzler (377)
3) Bruce Smith
4) Catherine Scott
5) Capt. Gavin Giddings
6) Vern Jones
7) Bill Rollins
8) Dan Wyatt
9) Bryan Ward
10) Rob Bertrand
11) Jim Brunberg
12) Everyone who showed up

Those who traveled to CooperCon bore much of their own expenses. This includes travel from across the United States.

Additionally, a special thanks to Mark Metzler (377) for insisting on contributing to the costs of CooperCon this year, as well as last year. It goes without saying, these have not been money-making events. Nonetheless, they have been very successful in that outstanding presentations have been made, solid information has been disseminated, people have had a lot of fun and enjoyed the conversations and camaraderie, and the events have garnered a lot of media attention.

CooperCon 2020 will be another big improvement over this year's event just as this year's event was a big improvement over the 2018 event.

Thank you again to all!
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 01, 2019, 04:20:23 PM
Thanks for organizing it, Eric. It was fantastic.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Darren on December 03, 2019, 06:06:53 PM
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Thanks for organizing it, Eric. It was fantastic.

Agreed. Thank you Eric!
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: David on December 06, 2019, 09:49:34 PM
Cats out of the bag on some of “my suspects” evidence.  He worked on the SR-71 blackbird as an engineer, which is made of titanium (92% of aircraft).  The blackbird wasn’t pure titanium which was apparently the form found on the tie.  I touched base with Tom Kaye a couple years ago and he discounted that an aircraft facility would have had access to pure titanium.  However, the SR-71 was very much an experimental aircraft.  As an engineer, I would be shocked they didn’t create their own titanium alloys while designing various parts of the aircraft and that they didn’t have the pure metal on-site.  I would imagine they used pure titanium as a “control” in the metals lab to compare performance improvements with different alloys.  There are thousands of parts with each having unique requirements and a need for optimization. 

Regardless of that, you have to assume employees of the SR-71 program worked directly with the metallurgical foundries that had pure titanium.

The silicon spheres found on the tie could be associated with the windshield on the SR71.  The outer windscreen of the cockpit was made of quartz and was fused ultrasonically to the titanium frame.

I have a number of other reasons with my suspect that are a match.

I am surprised that former employees of the SR-71 program haven’t been given more scrutiny given the history of the aircraft.  Whether or not my suspect is a good lead, I think this is a huge gap that this community and possibly the FBI haven’t considered.











Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: georger on December 06, 2019, 11:33:43 PM
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Cats out of the bag on some of “my suspects” evidence.  He worked on the SR-71 blackbird as an engineer, which is made of titanium (92% of aircraft).  The blackbird wasn’t pure titanium which was apparently the form found on the tie.  I touched base with Tom Kaye a couple years ago and he discounted that an aircraft facility would have had access to pure titanium.  However, the SR-71 was very much an experimental aircraft.  As an engineer, I would be shocked they didn’t create their own titanium alloys while designing various parts of the aircraft and that they didn’t have the pure metal on-site.  I would imagine they used pure titanium as a “control” in the metals lab to compare performance improvements with different alloys.  There are thousands of parts with each having unique requirements and a need for optimization. 

Regardless of that, you have to assume employees of the SR-71 program worked directly with the metallurgical foundries that had pure titanium.

The silicon spheres found on the tie could be associated with the windshield on the SR71.  The outer windscreen of the cockpit was made of quartz and was fused ultrasonically to the titanium frame.

I have a number of other reasons with my suspect that are a match.

I am surprised that former employees of the SR-71 program haven’t been given more scrutiny given the history of the aircraft.  Whether or not my suspect is a good lead, I think this is a huge gap that this community and possibly the FBI haven’t considered.

Kaye may have meant 'pure' Ti.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: Robert99 on December 06, 2019, 11:39:28 PM
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Cats out of the bag on some of “my suspects” evidence.  He worked on the SR-71 blackbird as an engineer, which is made of titanium (92% of aircraft).  The blackbird wasn’t pure titanium which was apparently the form found on the tie.  I touched base with Tom Kaye a couple years ago and he discounted that an aircraft facility would have had access to pure titanium.  However, the SR-71 was very much an experimental aircraft.  As an engineer, I would be shocked they didn’t create their own titanium alloys while designing various parts of the aircraft and that they didn’t have the pure metal on-site.  I would imagine they used pure titanium as a “control” in the metals lab to compare performance improvements with different alloys.  There are thousands of parts with each having unique requirements and a need for optimization. 

Regardless of that, you have to assume employees of the SR-71 program worked directly with the metallurgical foundries that had pure titanium.

The silicon spheres found on the tie could be associated with the windshield on the SR71.  The outer windscreen of the cockpit was made of quartz and was fused ultrasonically to the titanium frame.

I have a number of other reasons with my suspect that are a match.

I am surprised that former employees of the SR-71 program haven’t been given more scrutiny given the history of the aircraft.  Whether or not my suspect is a good lead, I think this is a huge gap that this community and possibly the FBI haven’t considered.

David,

I gather that you may have had some general connection with the SR-71 program.  You probably know that the titanium used for that program came from the old Soviet Union through a number of CIA shell companies.  I doubt if Lockheed had much titanium to experiment with.  But as Kelly Johnson said, they had to invent "everything" for that program.  So I imagine that once they found something that worked, they didn't bother with additional experiments.

The basic physical design of the SR-71 was probably completed in the very early 1960s.  I understand that North American hired some Lockheed people who had titanium experience from the SR-71 program to work on the B-70 program.  The B-70 was flying by the mid-1960s but I don't know how much titanium it used.  So by the start up of the SST program in the 1960s, there were probably a respectable number of people who had experience with titanium aircraft programs and Boeing would probably want them on their program.

So you could be right.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: David on December 07, 2019, 12:45:33 AM
You don’t need much of the metal to test it’s properties.  You also don’t lose the metal you test because you can melt it down again.  I think a lot of the design was iterative in that you’re constantly fine tuning everything.  Something might work on the first go, but there can still be room for improvement.

With my suspect, all I know is he worked on the SR-71.  He may very well have worked elsewhere with titanium before or after, including the Boeing SST program.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: nickyb233 on December 09, 2019, 04:13:03 PM
Not just any CP titanium because all the unusual salt found on the tie points to pure titanium made by using the hunter process and the only manufacturer in the world that Kaye could find at that time still using the hunter process was Reactive Metals Inc. (RMI) out of Ohio, all other manufacturers were using the kroll process. The SR-71 finished production before the tie was made so we can rule that out. To me the only project that fits the timeline is the BOEING SST. They were developing hydraulic tubing made of titanium for the SST and welding different types of titanium for this including CP TI from RMI. Can’t find another project in this time frame that was welding RMI titanium. When you consider 13 particles (many of them toxic) found on the tie are found in welding fumes it also supports this being the most likely source for the particles found on the tie. Couple that with Najeeb Halaby who was the lead proponent for the SST (spearheaded the program and got all the funding) was meeting with president Nixon just hours before the hijacking and that government pulled the plug on it just 6 months prior...there is just too much smoke here not to be any fire. Given this evidence cooper was an engineer or manager involved with the hydraulic tubing development of the SST. I have identified the best candidate from this subset, James Edward Klansnic.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: nickyb233 on December 09, 2019, 04:23:00 PM
I have screenshots of a government document to support my statements above regarding the hydraulic tubing development for the SST. If anybody is interested In seeing them PM me as the files are to big to post on the forum. The document was available online for some time but not to my surprise has been recently removed from the web.
Title: Re: 2019 Cooper
Post by: David on December 09, 2019, 05:34:53 PM
The SR-71 factory was in LA, but the aircraft operated out of Beale in Northern California.  I was told my suspect worked on the SR-71 program in North Cal (meaning Beale).  I am sure they still had a lab and did a lot of work with titanium on-site for repairs and replacement parts.

I agree the Boeing SST motive aligns well with Cooper.  And as before, it's possible my suspect worked on both programs.